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Cdsnuts
04-26-2013, 09:00 AM
Mine was hands down AH V3. But seeing as that's not available anymore, I'm looking for something similar. Would love to hear what guys are using now that comes close to the old stuff.

I just picked up two tubes of Dermacrine and am looking to stack with that.

Right Hook
04-26-2013, 09:39 AM
5-Alpha Test by FRL. :)

Cdsnuts
04-26-2013, 09:46 AM
Thanks. I hear that stuff is super minty fresh.....lol. So much so people get annoyed at having to dose an altoid like pill three times a day......I dont' mind mint, and if it works as good, or as close to good as AH v3, then I'll deal with it.

nate3993
04-26-2013, 12:07 PM
I'm gonna say ur best bet is stano at 800+, take with a glass of grapefruit juice. Fuk all these super low dosed epiandrosterone products like MMV3 by LG, or 5-Alpha by FRL. 20mg of epiandrosterone a pill sucks. No matter how good their "delivery" system is.

Right Hook
04-26-2013, 12:28 PM
I'm gonna say ur best bet is stano at 800+, take with a glass of grapefruit juice. Fuk all these super low dosed epiandrosterone products like MMV3 by LG, or 5-Alpha by FRL. 20mg of epiandrosterone a pill sucks. No matter how good their "delivery" system is.

I think at this point you're just trolling me. Nonetheless these suggest the delivery system is quite effective:


J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., 1991 vol. 72(5) pp. 1054-9
Sublingual administration of testosterone-hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin inclusion complex simulates episodic androgen release in hypogonadal men
Stuenkel, CA; Dudley, RE; Yen, SS
In search of a more physiological testosterone (T) replacement therapy for hypogonadal states, we evaluated an inclusion complex of T with 2-hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin (HPBCD). HPBCD enhances T solubility and absorption, but HPBCD is not absorbed. Five hypogonadal men (mean age, 32.4 +/- 2.3 yr) with serum T levels below the normal range were treated in two separate experimental phases with either a 2.5- or 5.0-mg tablet of sublingual (SL) T-HPBCD three times daily for 7 days. Acute pharmacodynamic changes were monitored at baseline and 10, 20, and 40 min and 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4, and 8 h after administration of the first dose. At the 5-mg dose, a maximal concentration (Cmax) of T (85.4 +/- 11.0 nmol/L) was achieved in 20 min (63 +/- 24-fold increase), followed by a rapid decline to below the normal range (less than 12 nmol/L) at 2 h, with an estimated half-life of decline of 1.87 +/- 0.19 h. The dihydrotestosterone (DHT) Cmax (4.1 +/- 0.5 nmol/L) occurred at 32 +/- 5 min (8.9 +/- 1.3-fold increase) and declined to below the normal range (less than 1.2 nmol/L) after 3 h. The integrated 8 h value for the ratio of T/DHT was 10.0 +/- 1.1, which fell within the normal range. The increment in androstenedione paralleled that in T, and the Cmax (6.8 +/- 0.9 nmol/L) was reached in 24 +/- 4 min (2.3 +/- 0.6-fold increase). Compared to baseline, the Cmax was significantly greater for T (P less than 0.005), DHT (P less than 0.0005), and androstenedione (P less than 0.005). Both estradiol (E2) and estrone (E1) remained in the normal range (less than 200 pmol/L), although the Cmax for E1 was significantly greater than baseline (P less than 0.05). Serum LH levels were suppressed (19.0 +/- 2.6%) at 2 h (P less than 0.05), without a significant change in FSH. During 7 days of treatment, there was no cumulative increase in basal T, DHT, and E2 levels or further decline in LH or FSH levels. There was no change in sex hormone-binding globulin levels. Similar results were observed with the 2.5-mg dose, suggesting that the capacity of SL absorption may be limited to a certain dose of T-HPBCD. The fluctuations in T after SL administration of T-HPBCD resemble endogenous episodic secretion. We conclude that T, complexed with HPBCD, is rapidly absorbed by the SL route and quickly metabolized without sustained elevations of DHT or E2.
Address: Department of Reproductive Medicine, School of Medicine, University of California-San Diego, La Jolla 92093.
Type: Journal article
PMID: 1902483
Full Text

J. Appl. Physiol., 2002 vol. 92(1) pp. 142-6
Acute hormonal response to sublingual androstenediol intake in young men
Brown, GA; Martini, ER; Roberts, BS; Vukovich, MD; King, DS
The effectiveness of orally ingested androstenediol in raising serum testosterone concentrations may be limited because of hepatic breakdown of the ingested androgens. Because androstenediol administered sublingually with cyclodextrin bypasses first-pass hepatic catabolism, we evaluated the acute hormonal response to sublingual cyclodextrin androstenediol supplement in young men. Eight men (22.9 +/- 1.2 yr) experienced in strength training consumed either 20 mg androstenediol in a sublingual cyclodextrin tablet (Sl Diol) or placebo (Pl) separated by at least 1 wk in a randomized, double-blind, crossover manner. Blood samples were collected before supplementation and at 30-min intervals for 3 h after supplementation. Serum hormone concentrations did not change with Pl. Serum androstenedione concentrations were increased (P < 0.05) above baseline (11.2 +/- 1.1 nmol/l) with Sl Diol from 60 to 180 min after intake and reached a peak concentration of 25.2 +/- 2.9 nmol/l at 120 min. Serum free testosterone concentrations were increased from 86.2 +/- 9.1 pmol/l with Sl Diol from 30 to 180 min and reached a peak concentration of 175.4 +/- 12.2 pmol/l at 60 min. Serum total testosterone concentrations increased above basal (25.6 +/- 2.3 nmol/l) from 30 to 180 min with Sl Diol and reached a peak concentration of 47.9 + 2.9 nmol/l at 60 min. Serum estradiol concentrations were elevated (P < 0.05) above baseline (0.08 +/- 0.01 nmol/l) from 30 to 180 min with Sl Diol and reached 0.14 +/- 0.02 nmol/l at 180 min. These data indicate that sublingual cyclodextrin androstenediol intake increases serum androstenedione, free testosterone, total testosterone, and estradiol concentrations.
Address: Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory, Department of Health and Human Performance, Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa 50011, USA.
Type: Journal article
PMID: 11744653
Free Full Text (full-text online)

Int. J. Clin. Pract., 2004 vol. 58(11) pp. 1073-80
Striant SR: a novel, effective and convenient testosterone therapy for male hypogonadism
Korbonits, M; Kipnes, M; Grossman, AB
Striant SR (marketed as Striant in the US) is a novel sustained-release mucoadhesive buccal testosterone tablet for the treatment of male hypogonadism. Striant SR restores serum testosterone concentrations to the physiological range within 4 h of application, and steady-state concentrations are achieved within 24 h of twice-daily dosing. In phase III clinical trials, 87-97% of patients using Striant SR achieved 24-h-averaged serum testosterone concentrations within the normal range. In a comparative study, Striant SR was more likely to restore testosterone concentrations to the physiological range than Andropatch. In a small study, Striant SR produced steady-state testosterone concentrations comparable with those achieved with a testosterone gel (50mg testosterone). Striant SR was well tolerated, with a low incidence of adverse events and a low discontinuation rate (3.5%) due to adverse events in phase III studies. Striant SR is an effective, well-tolerated, convenient and discreet treatment for male hypogonadism.

J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., 2004 vol. 89(8) pp. 3821-9
New testosterone buccal system (Striant) delivers physiological testosterone levels: pharmacokinetics study in hypogonadal men
Wang, C; Swerdloff, R; Kipnes, M; Matsumoto, AM; Dobs, AS; Cunningham, G; Katznelson, L; Weber, TJ; Friedman, TC; Snyder, P; Levine, HL
A new mucoadhesive testosterone buccal system (Striant), 30 mg testosterone (T), was applied twice daily in 82 hypogonadal men for 3 months. Serum T, free T, and 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone were measured during this period. T pharmacokinetics were determined from the data obtained during a 24-h sampling at wk 12. Physiological mean serum T concentrations were steady and consistently maintained. The mean percentage of time over a 24-h period that total serum T concentrations were above the lower limit of adult male range was 80.1%. During treatment, mean serum 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone, free T, and estradiol concentrations paralleled serum T. T pharmacokinetics were not significantly affected by body mass index, age, food or beverage, gum abnormalities, or medications known to cause dry mouth. Gum-related adverse events occurred in 16.3% of subjects. Except for three subjects, the gum adverse effects occurred early during treatment, did not cause interruption of treatment, and resolved rapidly and completely. The T buccal system is a novel T formulation that offers a safe, effective, and convenient alternative to existing formulations for physiological T replacement therapy in hypogonadal men.
Address: Department of Medicine, Harbor-University of California, Los Angeles Medical Center and Research and Education Institute, Torrance, California 90509-2910, USA. wang@gcrc.rei.edu

Curr Med Res Opin, 2004 vol. 20(5) pp. 729-38
Short-term pharmacokinetic comparison of a novel testosterone buccal system and a testosterone gel in testosterone deficient men
Dobs, AS; Matsumoto, AM; Wang, C; Kipnes, MS
OBJECTIVE: The primary objective of the study was to compare the percentage of men with mean serum total T (C(ave(0-24))) within normal range during the 24-h pharmacokinetic (PK) sampling period on Days 14 and 15.
METHODS: Treatment with a new testosterone (T) buccal system, (Striant), 30 mg twice daily was compared to a transdermal gel delivery system, (T-gel) [AndroGel 5 g containing 1% (50 mg) T] daily for 14 days in T-deficient men. Safety parameters included laboratory assessments and collection of adverse events. Patients were otherwise healthy T-deficient men with total T
RESULTS: Twenty-six of the 28 patients enrolled (0.93 +/- 0.38 ng/mL) for T-gel, which was greater completed the 24-h PK assessment. Of the evaluable patients, 92.3% of T buccal system and 83.3% of T-gel patients had C(ave(0-24)) within the normal range of 10.4-36.4 nmol/L (3.0-10.5 ng/mL). Mean total T values were not different in the T buccal system group (C(ave(0-24)) 16.7 +/- 4.7 nmol/L; 4.8 +/- 1.4 ng/mL) compared to the T-gel group (C(ave(0-24)) 15.9 +/- 4.8 nmol/L; 4.6 +/- 1.4 ng/mL). All T values returned to baseline levels after the study drug was stopped. Serum LH and FSH levels decreased, and E(2) increased as expected following T administration. Differences in DHT concentrations between treatment groups were significant (p = 0.012) with mean DHT levels on Day 14 of 1.9 +/- 1.4 nmol/L (0.55 +/- 0.42 ng/mL) for the T buccal system and 3.2 +/- 1.3 nmol/L than the upper level of normal (2.9 nmol/L; 0.85 ng/mL). Statistically significant differences were seen in the mean T/DHT ratio on Days 14 and 15 with the T buccal system (9.3) and T-gel (5.0) (normal 9-12) (Day 14, p < 0.00001; Day 15, p < 0.0001). All adverse events were mild to moderate in severity. Three of 12 adverse events significant adverse effects in T-deficient men. The T were considered related to the study drug and included headache (1 for each of the T buccal system and T-gel), and breast pain (T-gel). Summary and conclusions: In this short-term study, the T buccal system produced steady-state T levels comparable to those with T-Gel without buccal system provides an additional safe, effective and convenient option for testosterone replacement therapy in hypogonadal men.

Cdsnuts
04-26-2013, 12:34 PM
I'm gonna say ur best bet is stano at 800+, take with a glass of grapefruit juice. Fuk all these super low dosed epiandrosterone products like MMV3 by LG, or 5-Alpha by FRL. 20mg of epiandrosterone a pill sucks. No matter how good their "delivery" system is.

How suppressive is it..... comparatively? One of the reasons I loved AH was that for me, it never shut me down. I'm pretty sure I coulda run a nice long cycle of AH v3 with no PCT.

- - - Updated - - -


I think at this point you're just trolling me. Nonetheless these suggest the delivery system is quite effective:


J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., 1991 vol. 72(5) pp. 1054-9
Sublingual administration of testosterone-hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin inclusion complex simulates episodic androgen release in hypogonadal men
Stuenkel, CA; Dudley, RE; Yen, SS
In search of a more physiological testosterone (T) replacement therapy for hypogonadal states, we evaluated an inclusion complex of T with 2-hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin (HPBCD). HPBCD enhances T solubility and absorption, but HPBCD is not absorbed. Five hypogonadal men (mean age, 32.4 +/- 2.3 yr) with serum T levels below the normal range were treated in two separate experimental phases with either a 2.5- or 5.0-mg tablet of sublingual (SL) T-HPBCD three times daily for 7 days. Acute pharmacodynamic changes were monitored at baseline and 10, 20, and 40 min and 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4, and 8 h after administration of the first dose. At the 5-mg dose, a maximal concentration (Cmax) of T (85.4 +/- 11.0 nmol/L) was achieved in 20 min (63 +/- 24-fold increase), followed by a rapid decline to below the normal range (less than 12 nmol/L) at 2 h, with an estimated half-life of decline of 1.87 +/- 0.19 h. The dihydrotestosterone (DHT) Cmax (4.1 +/- 0.5 nmol/L) occurred at 32 +/- 5 min (8.9 +/- 1.3-fold increase) and declined to below the normal range (less than 1.2 nmol/L) after 3 h. The integrated 8 h value for the ratio of T/DHT was 10.0 +/- 1.1, which fell within the normal range. The increment in androstenedione paralleled that in T, and the Cmax (6.8 +/- 0.9 nmol/L) was reached in 24 +/- 4 min (2.3 +/- 0.6-fold increase). Compared to baseline, the Cmax was significantly greater for T (P less than 0.005), DHT (P less than 0.0005), and androstenedione (P less than 0.005). Both estradiol (E2) and estrone (E1) remained in the normal range (less than 200 pmol/L), although the Cmax for E1 was significantly greater than baseline (P less than 0.05). Serum LH levels were suppressed (19.0 +/- 2.6%) at 2 h (P less than 0.05), without a significant change in FSH. During 7 days of treatment, there was no cumulative increase in basal T, DHT, and E2 levels or further decline in LH or FSH levels. There was no change in sex hormone-binding globulin levels. Similar results were observed with the 2.5-mg dose, suggesting that the capacity of SL absorption may be limited to a certain dose of T-HPBCD. The fluctuations in T after SL administration of T-HPBCD resemble endogenous episodic secretion. We conclude that T, complexed with HPBCD, is rapidly absorbed by the SL route and quickly metabolized without sustained elevations of DHT or E2.
Address: Department of Reproductive Medicine, School of Medicine, University of California-San Diego, La Jolla 92093.
Type: Journal article
PMID: 1902483
Full Text

J. Appl. Physiol., 2002 vol. 92(1) pp. 142-6
Acute hormonal response to sublingual androstenediol intake in young men
Brown, GA; Martini, ER; Roberts, BS; Vukovich, MD; King, DS
The effectiveness of orally ingested androstenediol in raising serum testosterone concentrations may be limited because of hepatic breakdown of the ingested androgens. Because androstenediol administered sublingually with cyclodextrin bypasses first-pass hepatic catabolism, we evaluated the acute hormonal response to sublingual cyclodextrin androstenediol supplement in young men. Eight men (22.9 +/- 1.2 yr) experienced in strength training consumed either 20 mg androstenediol in a sublingual cyclodextrin tablet (Sl Diol) or placebo (Pl) separated by at least 1 wk in a randomized, double-blind, crossover manner. Blood samples were collected before supplementation and at 30-min intervals for 3 h after supplementation. Serum hormone concentrations did not change with Pl. Serum androstenedione concentrations were increased (P < 0.05) above baseline (11.2 +/- 1.1 nmol/l) with Sl Diol from 60 to 180 min after intake and reached a peak concentration of 25.2 +/- 2.9 nmol/l at 120 min. Serum free testosterone concentrations were increased from 86.2 +/- 9.1 pmol/l with Sl Diol from 30 to 180 min and reached a peak concentration of 175.4 +/- 12.2 pmol/l at 60 min. Serum total testosterone concentrations increased above basal (25.6 +/- 2.3 nmol/l) from 30 to 180 min with Sl Diol and reached a peak concentration of 47.9 + 2.9 nmol/l at 60 min. Serum estradiol concentrations were elevated (P < 0.05) above baseline (0.08 +/- 0.01 nmol/l) from 30 to 180 min with Sl Diol and reached 0.14 +/- 0.02 nmol/l at 180 min. These data indicate that sublingual cyclodextrin androstenediol intake increases serum androstenedione, free testosterone, total testosterone, and estradiol concentrations.
Address: Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory, Department of Health and Human Performance, Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa 50011, USA.
Type: Journal article
PMID: 11744653
Free Full Text (full-text online)

Int. J. Clin. Pract., 2004 vol. 58(11) pp. 1073-80
Striant SR: a novel, effective and convenient testosterone therapy for male hypogonadism
Korbonits, M; Kipnes, M; Grossman, AB
Striant SR (marketed as Striant in the US) is a novel sustained-release mucoadhesive buccal testosterone tablet for the treatment of male hypogonadism. Striant SR restores serum testosterone concentrations to the physiological range within 4 h of application, and steady-state concentrations are achieved within 24 h of twice-daily dosing. In phase III clinical trials, 87-97% of patients using Striant SR achieved 24-h-averaged serum testosterone concentrations within the normal range. In a comparative study, Striant SR was more likely to restore testosterone concentrations to the physiological range than Andropatch. In a small study, Striant SR produced steady-state testosterone concentrations comparable with those achieved with a testosterone gel (50mg testosterone). Striant SR was well tolerated, with a low incidence of adverse events and a low discontinuation rate (3.5%) due to adverse events in phase III studies. Striant SR is an effective, well-tolerated, convenient and discreet treatment for male hypogonadism.

J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., 2004 vol. 89(8) pp. 3821-9
New testosterone buccal system (Striant) delivers physiological testosterone levels: pharmacokinetics study in hypogonadal men
Wang, C; Swerdloff, R; Kipnes, M; Matsumoto, AM; Dobs, AS; Cunningham, G; Katznelson, L; Weber, TJ; Friedman, TC; Snyder, P; Levine, HL
A new mucoadhesive testosterone buccal system (Striant), 30 mg testosterone (T), was applied twice daily in 82 hypogonadal men for 3 months. Serum T, free T, and 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone were measured during this period. T pharmacokinetics were determined from the data obtained during a 24-h sampling at wk 12. Physiological mean serum T concentrations were steady and consistently maintained. The mean percentage of time over a 24-h period that total serum T concentrations were above the lower limit of adult male range was 80.1%. During treatment, mean serum 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone, free T, and estradiol concentrations paralleled serum T. T pharmacokinetics were not significantly affected by body mass index, age, food or beverage, gum abnormalities, or medications known to cause dry mouth. Gum-related adverse events occurred in 16.3% of subjects. Except for three subjects, the gum adverse effects occurred early during treatment, did not cause interruption of treatment, and resolved rapidly and completely. The T buccal system is a novel T formulation that offers a safe, effective, and convenient alternative to existing formulations for physiological T replacement therapy in hypogonadal men.
Address: Department of Medicine, Harbor-University of California, Los Angeles Medical Center and Research and Education Institute, Torrance, California 90509-2910, USA. wang@gcrc.rei.edu

Curr Med Res Opin, 2004 vol. 20(5) pp. 729-38
Short-term pharmacokinetic comparison of a novel testosterone buccal system and a testosterone gel in testosterone deficient men
Dobs, AS; Matsumoto, AM; Wang, C; Kipnes, MS
OBJECTIVE: The primary objective of the study was to compare the percentage of men with mean serum total T (C(ave(0-24))) within normal range during the 24-h pharmacokinetic (PK) sampling period on Days 14 and 15.
METHODS: Treatment with a new testosterone (T) buccal system, (Striant), 30 mg twice daily was compared to a transdermal gel delivery system, (T-gel) [AndroGel 5 g containing 1% (50 mg) T] daily for 14 days in T-deficient men. Safety parameters included laboratory assessments and collection of adverse events. Patients were otherwise healthy T-deficient men with total T
RESULTS: Twenty-six of the 28 patients enrolled (0.93 +/- 0.38 ng/mL) for T-gel, which was greater completed the 24-h PK assessment. Of the evaluable patients, 92.3% of T buccal system and 83.3% of T-gel patients had C(ave(0-24)) within the normal range of 10.4-36.4 nmol/L (3.0-10.5 ng/mL). Mean total T values were not different in the T buccal system group (C(ave(0-24)) 16.7 +/- 4.7 nmol/L; 4.8 +/- 1.4 ng/mL) compared to the T-gel group (C(ave(0-24)) 15.9 +/- 4.8 nmol/L; 4.6 +/- 1.4 ng/mL). All T values returned to baseline levels after the study drug was stopped. Serum LH and FSH levels decreased, and E(2) increased as expected following T administration. Differences in DHT concentrations between treatment groups were significant (p = 0.012) with mean DHT levels on Day 14 of 1.9 +/- 1.4 nmol/L (0.55 +/- 0.42 ng/mL) for the T buccal system and 3.2 +/- 1.3 nmol/L than the upper level of normal (2.9 nmol/L; 0.85 ng/mL). Statistically significant differences were seen in the mean T/DHT ratio on Days 14 and 15 with the T buccal system (9.3) and T-gel (5.0) (normal 9-12) (Day 14, p < 0.00001; Day 15, p < 0.0001). All adverse events were mild to moderate in severity. Three of 12 adverse events significant adverse effects in T-deficient men. The T were considered related to the study drug and included headache (1 for each of the T buccal system and T-gel), and breast pain (T-gel). Summary and conclusions: In this short-term study, the T buccal system produced steady-state T levels comparable to those with T-Gel without buccal system provides an additional safe, effective and convenient option for testosterone replacement therapy in hypogonadal men.

Okay fellas.....please....not in this thread. I just want peoples opinions and no dick measuring contests......

Scope75
04-26-2013, 12:58 PM
AHv1 was the best!!!!!

1g a day had me dropping fat, holding onto muscle, hard muscles, and libido was threw the roof.
If I could get my hands on more I'd run at 1g a day until I ran out.

nate3993
04-26-2013, 04:39 PM
stano is obviously gonna be more supressive than AH. not the same delivery. that being said, it's not gonna shut you down a whole lot.

- - - Updated - - -

plus, if ur gonna do a couple bottles of derma, add the stano, do a mild pct. that's gonna be your best bet.

nate3993
04-26-2013, 04:42 PM
and i'm going off of experience. i've tried the mmv3 at 10 doses. that's 200mg of epi. when i wouldn't take the doses with gfj, i noticed a bit less effects. but even with gfj, it was pretty meh.

USN HM 350Z
04-26-2013, 05:08 PM
Toss up for me. AH V3 and Prescription nutrition E Spray. I like how fast the E Spray kicked in for me, but I prefer taking pills to doing topicals. I got about the same effect from both products.

I have also used plain old Stano at 1000/day and that was so, so compared to the other two.

burlyman30
04-26-2013, 07:46 PM
Toss up for me. AH V3 and Prescription nutrition E Spray. I like how fast the E Spray kicked in for me, but I prefer taking pills to doing topicals. I got about the same effect from both products.

I have also used plain old Stano at 1000/day and that was so, so compared to the other two.

Ever use AH v.1 as a comparison?

USN HM 350Z
04-26-2013, 07:57 PM
Ever use AH v.1 as a comparison?

I wish i could get my hands on some. Never got the opportunity though.

burlyman30
04-26-2013, 08:24 PM
I wish i could get my hands on some. Never got the opportunity though.

Still working on my stash from the original v.1 liquidation sale....

Cdsnuts
04-27-2013, 04:43 AM
Still working on my stash from the original v.1 liquidation sale....

Loved that stuff. I'm a bit envious. I still think it's the best version they came out with. V3 was good, but V1 was the best. IMO

Cdsnuts
04-27-2013, 04:46 AM
So.....what are everyone's thoughts on Alpha Test 5??

BeaverDan
04-27-2013, 12:57 PM
Still working on my stash from the original v.1 liquidation sale....

I sure wish Burly would share his stash of AH V1 and Turinabol Lv :D. I haven't tried AH V3 yet, but plan to do so in the near future. AH V1 was amazing! Personally if I wasn't using AH I would just use plain stano at 800-1000mg's.

burlyman30
04-27-2013, 01:20 PM
I sure wish Burly would share his stash of AH V1 and Turinabol Lv :D.

Lol. Yeah.. I've heard that once or twice around here.

Tonesf
04-28-2013, 12:13 AM
I have 2 expired bottles of AH v1. Is it still ok to use?

Cdsnuts
04-28-2013, 05:39 AM
I have 2 expired bottles of AH v1. Is it still ok to use?

Send them to me. I'll let you know.

markam
04-28-2013, 07:34 AM
So.....what are everyone's thoughts on Alpha Test 5??

Anyone have any idea what the equivelant dosage to 6 caps AH v3 would be?

BTW Predator still have over 50 bottles of AHv3 but it's at a premium price of £117. Too rich for my blood, (pun intended).

AHv3 is the PP product that I will miss the most:(

Cdsnuts
04-28-2013, 01:16 PM
Anyone have any idea what the equivelant dosage to 6 caps AH v3 would be?

BTW Predator still have over 50 bottles of AHv3 but it's at a premium price of £117. Too rich for my blood, (pun intended).

AHv3 is the PP product that I will miss the most:(

Do they ship to U.S.?

Freepressright
04-28-2013, 01:32 PM
So.....what are everyone's thoughts on Alpha Test 5??

Good, when you dose it around 4 RDE tabs per day. And that's a lot of mint and Altoids. Personally I got so sick of dosing it that I decided not to grab a second bottle.

I'll back up Nate on the criticism of their delivery system. It's good, but it isn't THAT good. In other words, the stuff works but not as well as they claim with that super-impressive-sounding percentage.

Also, they call them "Rapid Dissolve" tabs, and that's an exaggeration. There's nothing rapid about them. It's slightly better with the effervescent stuff added, but it's still not rapid.

Go Stano, bro :)

I'm going to run Stano Elite at 800+ per day next time around

Right Hook
04-28-2013, 01:47 PM
Good, when you dose it around 4 RDE tabs per day. And that's a lot of mint and Altoids. Personally I got so sick of dosing it that I decided not to grab a second bottle.

I'll back up Nate on the criticism of their delivery system. It's good, but it isn't THAT good. In other words, the stuff works but not as well as they claim with that super-impressive-sounding percentage.

Also, they call them "Rapid Dissolve" tabs, and that's an exaggeration. There's nothing rapid about them. It's slightly better with the effervescent stuff added, but it's still not rapid.

Go Stano, bro :)

I'm going to run Stano Elite at 800+ per day next time around

Which percentage? When you say "they" that's me. The 30%? That's based on the available literature that supports the claim and nothing more. There is no accurate or remotely usable way to measure anecdotal experience. Its subjective. Data however is objective. So thats why i use.

I used the conservative claim as well. I could have said (300%) as most other companies would. I don't know why you guys hate me so much.

Why we use 30%:

First in 2010 research was published out of Cairo University that developed and compared an orally disintegrating tablet (including hydroxyl propyl beta cyclodextrin, and an effervescent matrix) to a regular oral supplement (1). The supplement is a popular nootropic known as vinpocetine, used to enhance memory and also sold as a drug to treat stroke victims (caviton). Vinpocetine, like prohormones is poorly water soluble and is rapidly broken down by first pass metabolism and for this reason they felt an orally disintegrating tab would improve the pharmacokinetics. And they were right. They found that the orally disintegrating tab utilizing an effervescent matrix resulted in a 306% increase in bioavailability!

Therefore we looked to a patent filed in 2008 (2). What is great about this patent are the research and the compound they studied. The compound is known as progesterone, which is used in hormonal replacement therapy for women. Of course we don’t want to supplement progesterone, but much like prohormones progesterone is a sex steroid, which makes it poorly soluble in water. And just like prohormones progesterone has a poor bioavailability (6-8%) when administered orally (3). The inventors were trying to better an existing orally disintegrating formulation which consisted of progesterone, HPCD, as wells as other basic ingredients such as flavoring. So they created the same formula, with the addition of an effervescent matrix (citric acid, and sodium bicarbonate). With the two formulations they then completed a pharmacokinetic study using each formulation which contained equal amounts of the studied active (in this case progesterone). As you can see below there was a significantly greater spike in “Example 2” which contains the effervescent matrix.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/04/29/emasesun.jpg

In the graph above it doesn’t appear much different from “Example 1”, however when you factor in the all important area under the curve (AUC) you would find a bioavailability increase of 30%. And this is why Advanced Muscle Science believes you will see a similar increase in bioavailability with the new line of effervescent matrix enhanced prohormones.

The Lab: Effervescent Elitism - AMS Rapid Dissolve Tabs (http://www.advancedmusclesciencelab.com/2012/01/effervescent-elitism-advanced-muscle.html)

Freepressright
04-28-2013, 02:22 PM
I have to be honest with you, having used the original RD tabs and then the RDE Chrome tabs, I don't notice a tremendous difference in tablet breakdown. Honestly, the RDE marketing left me to believe I was taking a tablet that would fizzle away under my tongue in a matter of a minute or less. That was far from the case.

I'm not saying your products suck, and I'm not saying they don't work, I'm just saying I am a skeptic of the bio-equivalency calculations. They look good on paper, but in the real world, I am skeptical they're as powerful as they're chalked up to be.

Again, I wound up running four tabs a day and just got sick of swishing minty tablets around that tasted like a morph of Altoids and Velamints (there's a flashback for ya). I'm going to try Stano Elite next time as a comparison.

Right Hook
04-28-2013, 02:33 PM
I have to be honest with you, having used the original RD tabs and then the RDE Chrome tabs, I don't notice a tremendous difference in tablet breakdown. Honestly, the RDE marketing left me to believe I was taking a tablet that would fizzle away under my tongue in a matter of a minute or less. That was far from the case.

I'm not saying your products suck, and I'm not saying they don't work, I'm just saying I am a skeptic of the bio-equivalency calculations. They look good on paper, but in the real world, I am skeptical they're as powerful as they're chalked up to be.

Again, I wound up running four tabs a day and just got sick of swishing minty tablets around that tasted like a morph of Altoids and Velamints (there's a flashback for ya). I'm going to try Stano Elite next time as a comparison.

In terms of tablet dissolvability there is a happy medium. If we made them too soft you would end up with a bottle of dust. Scoring the tab before using it results in a much faster dissolving effect.

We don't calculate bio-equivalency for our prohormones. We estimate bioavailability based on currently available data. Bio-equivalency is something completely different.

USN HM 350Z
04-28-2013, 03:09 PM
I have used Stano, AH v3 & E-spray. Maybe I will pick up a few bottles of the Alpha 5 Test and give some feed back on the effect at both the suggested dose and then at the dose it takes to get the desired effect from. If I run it I would like to do it for a solid 8 weeks to evaluate it thoroughly and give honest feedback of it versus the other products listed.

markam
04-28-2013, 03:13 PM
Do they ship to U.S.?

Yes. SwoleSource7 code for 7% off.

markam
04-28-2013, 03:21 PM
I have used Stano, AH v3 & E-spray. Maybe I will pick up a few bottles of the Alpha 5 Test and give some feed back on the effect at both the suggested dose and then at the dose it takes to get the desired effect from. If I run it I would like to do it for a solid 8 weeks to evaluate it thoroughly and give honest feedback of it versus the other products listed.

That would be useful info. I much prefer AHv3 to Stano, so hopefully Alpha 5 test can at least come closer to AHv3.

Now if someone could just bring out a copy of AHv3..............

Sperwer, are you there?

Enuke65
04-28-2013, 03:32 PM
Yes. SwoleSource7 code for 7% off.

discount code does not work?

EDIT: you have to input shipping info first

even with the discount still looking at $175/ bottle, pretty steep

BoneDaddy
04-28-2013, 03:55 PM
5-Alpha Test was on my to do list, but that $50 tag scared me away. AH V1 was the best ever. I miss it.

markam
04-28-2013, 04:07 PM
discount code does not work?

EDIT: you have to input shipping info first

even with the discount still looking at $175/ bottle, pretty steep

Yep, I wouldn't buy it at that price.

Devastatingdave
04-28-2013, 04:52 PM
5-Alpha Test was on my to do list, but that $50 tag scared me away. AH V1 was the best ever. I miss it.
I beta tested the active ingredient in 5-alpha test (same thing just liquid and not a tab), it was really good stuff. Honestly I liked it better than AH V2 by a long shot.

Cdsnuts
04-28-2013, 05:29 PM
I beta tested the active ingredient in 5-alpha test (same thing just liquid and not a tab), it was really good stuff. Honestly I liked it better than AH V2 by a long shot.

That's because AH v2 sucked.

Right Hook
04-28-2013, 06:46 PM
5-Alpha Test was on my to do list, but that $50 tag scared me away. AH V1 was the best ever. I miss it.

At a retailer? It's much cheaper than that at most stores.

BoneDaddy
04-29-2013, 06:25 AM
At a retailer? It's much cheaper than that at most stores.

Yeah, I just found some for 30....much better.

Macdon1588
05-01-2013, 09:54 AM
I was reading some very old threads and they suggest the idea that dermacrine to the ball sac converts to DHT. Eric said that topical test to the sac would convert to DHT in such a manner, but DHEA? Is there any truth to that?

nate3993
05-01-2013, 02:04 PM
I was reading some very old threads and they suggest the idea that dermacrine to the ball sac converts to DHT. Eric said that topical test to the sac would convert to DHT in such a manner, but DHEA? Is there any truth to that?

I remember this. And yes. DHEA is a precursor to male/female sex hormones and topically on the scrotum, yields a fair amount of conversion to DHT. DHT is also known dehydroEPIANDROSTERONE, and dehydroepiANDROSTERONE.

- - - Updated - - -

420th post. Thank you to all who made this possible.

USN HM 350Z
05-01-2013, 07:45 PM
androgel to the ball sac works pretty well for sure lol

O_RYAN_007
05-01-2013, 08:00 PM
That's because AH v2 sucked.

I reacted good to it. I ran 12 wks of it and dropped 5% bf while just dropping 3-4#s. I leaned out hardcore, but I worked really hard! I didn't get the huge libido increases as I did from v1 or v3 though.

Grape Ape
05-02-2013, 09:47 AM
I ran V.2, and it recomped me hardcore in just 4 weeks. Never tried V.3, and stano @600mg was shit, IMO.

Devastatingdave
05-02-2013, 02:10 PM
That's because AH v2 sucked.

I dont know about that, I really enjoyed V2.

Cdsnuts
05-03-2013, 07:27 AM
I dont know about that, I really enjoyed V2.

For me it didn't come close to v1 or v3. Shortly after dosing I'd get heavy headed and foggy, completely lethargic and blah. Libido would also vanish. No thanks. For me, it sucked.

I'm not the only one. I'm pretty sure it was one of the reasons they changed the formulation.

markam
05-03-2013, 07:36 AM
For me it didn't come close to v1 or v3. Shortly after dosing I'd get heavy headed and foggy, completely lethargic and blah. Libido would also vanish. No thanks. For me, it sucked.

I'm not the only one. I'm pretty sure it was one of the reasons they changed the formulation.

This was my experience also. AHv3 is exceptional, though. Glad I stocked up on it.

mh03
05-03-2013, 06:09 PM
The last version of AH was the best and potent. 200 mg per pill with the delivery system. I'm waiting for someone to come out with something comparable. There are some but very underdosed.

h2s
05-03-2013, 06:53 PM
There was a company looking into doing it, but it was a bit cost prohibitive in terms of getting started.

Enuke65
05-03-2013, 08:41 PM
There was a company looking into doing it, but it was a bit cost prohibitive in terms of getting started.

Are you talking about sperwers potential venture or something else?

romangod
12-15-2013, 11:07 AM
Are there any prohormone DHT topicals out there?

weekend
12-15-2013, 02:38 PM
Are there any prohormone DHT topicals out there?

You can always order andractim gel
Buy DHT Cream, Andractim Gel | Buy DHT Cream (http://www.dhtcream.com/buy-dht-cream/)

I have been considering it myself

nate3993
12-15-2013, 10:49 PM
I've been using PA's Espray and it's ok. Not bad. Not great.

It's topical Epiandro for those who don't know.


And weekend. How the fuk do you dose that shit?

weekend
12-15-2013, 11:05 PM
I've been using PA's Espray and it's ok. Not bad. Not great.

It's topical Epiandro for those who don't know.


And weekend. How the fuk do you dose that shit?


not sure, i would assume since DHT about 5x the potency of testosterone and double the concentration as androgel, (25 mg/gram) you would get great results from 100 mg (4 g ED)

so a tube would last about 20 days. same price as masteron

i am also in talks with a UGL about getting them to produce injectable DHT.

BoneDaddy
12-16-2013, 06:04 AM
And weekend. How the fuk do you dose that shit?

4 quarter size drops in your favorite hand, your favorite porn, and rub vigorously in! ;)



i am also in talks with a UGL about getting them to produce injectable DHT.

Please report back on this.

testosteronet
12-16-2013, 06:36 AM
I've been using PA's Espray and it's ok. Not bad. Not great.

It's topical Epiandro for those who don't know.


And weekend. How the fuk do you dose that shit?

I just finished a 6-8 week run of the E-spray and I second your comments. Not bad. Not great. I think that the dosage might be low even once the body is covered. I applied it morning and night. I'd probably buy more if it were available. I had paid $40 per 2-pack and I'd say it was worth that, not the $70 or so a bottle it goes for nowadays. I am a bit surprised that there aren't more topical DHT products out. I read that Salvo and DesoxyT was similar to a DHT topical, but I can't speak from experience.

nate3993
12-16-2013, 02:02 PM
Yeah. It's weird. If I dose higher, libido drops. So I've just been on 40 sprays a day. Pretty sure the mod/
Ipam peptide combo has been doing more than the Espray. I think I may try out mestebol by celtic. It's a prohormone to proviron.

testosteronet
12-16-2013, 02:41 PM
I picked up some Mestabol. I was hoping to see more feedback before trying it myself but the feedback sure is coming in slow.

nate3993
12-16-2013, 02:45 PM
What are people dosing it at? I'm guessing 3-4 minimum. No way is 2 pills a day even remotely worth it. I was wondering if I used the Espray and then threw in the mestebol what that would do. I think the reason for the e spray lowering my libido at higher doses may be because of the estrogen lowering properties. But maybe oral PLUS topical would be fine? I've used legit proviron bfor, so I can actually make a good comparison.

testosteronet
12-16-2013, 03:03 PM
Everyone I see is running it with something else. I saw some people taking it with vinegar which I would never do. 4 per day would go through the 60 count bottle pretty quick. Not sure what others are running it at. Pick some up and let us know what you think for the sake of science.

nate3993
12-16-2013, 09:21 PM
Here's what someone on PHF said-

Mestebol, my experience so far
Guys I just wanted to update you on my feedback on Mestebol. Well for the first few days I had been taking 3 caps a day spread out. To tell the truth I really didn't notice much. So I decided to see what happened if I doubled the dose (not sure this was a good idea). So for about a week I have been on 6 caps a day. All I can say is WOW. Not what I expected for the most part. At three caps a day I had a slightly alpha feeling and slight libido increase. About what I would expect for a weaker version of Proviron. That's why I thought doubling the dosage would really give me some answers. Well during the last week at 6 caps a day this is what I noticed: significant strength increases, almost every weight I use feels too light. Slight libido increase (but not significantly increased over three caps a day). And increased vascularity and what appears to be some leaning out in the mid section. Sooooooo at that point I would say sounds like Proviron. BUT I have had significant lethargy to go with the alpha feeling. So I basically feel tired but cranky. Like I could take over the world if I wasn't so tired. LOL. But I have also had what appears to be a significant increase in size (2.5 pound weight gain in a week, with increased fullness, and tightness). And almost unbearable pumps.

nate3993
12-16-2013, 09:29 PM
Sounds fun to me at a dose that doesn't cause lethargy. I'm thinking 5 a day

testosteronet
12-16-2013, 09:31 PM
I really hope it's opposite of lethargic.

WesleyInman
12-16-2013, 10:10 PM
Yeah I posted up over at PHF to see if maybe some guys over there knew of something similar to AH-- There are alot of underground and rare products floating around so I was hoping to get some hits..

I know someone mentioned that Celtic Labs Mestebol and I believe it is on sale for 19.99 (dont' quote me on this)

Someone else posted a product earlier that actually really caught my attention..It is called "Chizeled" by Maximus Labs.

I guess it is sold on some forum called Lyonsproteinsource, which one member seemed to discredit.

Anyways, this product is labeled to contain the following:


CHIZELED by Maximus Labs
60 capsules-
Each serving as follows


12mg-Epistane

50mg- 6-cholor (Hexadrone)

150mg- Epiandrosterone or Stanodrol



I will tell you one thing..this is an IDEAL formula in my opinion. I hadn't even thought of this..but this could potentially be amazing. "IF" it is dosed as stated. It's $70 a bottle or I'd give it a go. I am very very curious about this product. Even if you ran 4 of these a day, if this is dosed as stated, this could be such an amazing product!!!!

Anyone here ever try this?


I'd be willing to contact the company and see if they want a beta tester and log a month run at 4 caps.

This of course after my upcoming run. I am running Prescription Nutrition Epi Andro Hard at 4 caps ED, or 320mgs of Epiandrostenone, plus delivery system and 45mgs of EPI by PN, Epistane ED!! Should be a disgusting cycle for strength and hardening. Should be starting this week the day it arrives.

O_RYAN_007
12-16-2013, 10:18 PM
Yeah I posted up over at PHF to see if maybe some guys over there knew of something similar to AH-- There are alot of underground and rare products floating around so I was hoping to get some hits..

I know someone mentioned that Celtic Labs Mestebol and I believe it is on sale for 19.99 (dont' quote me on this)

Someone else posted a product earlier that actually really caught my attention..It is called "Chizeled" by Maximus Labs.

I guess it is sold on some forum called Lyonsproteinsource, which one member seemed to discredit.

Anyways, this product is labeled to contain the following:


CHIZELED by Maximus Labs
60 capsules-
Each serving as follows


12mg-Epistane

50mg- 6-cholor (Hexadrone)

150mg- Epiandrosterone or Stanodrol



I will tell you one thing..this is an IDEAL formula in my opinion. I hadn't even thought of this..but this could potentially be amazing. "IF" it is dosed as stated. It's $70 a bottle or I'd give it a go. I am very very curious about this product. Even if you ran 4 of these a day, if this is dosed as stated, this could be such an amazing product!!!!

Anyone here ever try this?


I'd be willing to contact the company and see if they want a beta tester and log a month run at 4 caps.

This of course after my upcoming run. I am running Prescription Nutrition Epi Andro Hard at 4 caps ED, or 320mgs of Epiandrostenone, plus delivery system and 45mgs of EPI by PN, Epistane ED!! Should be a disgusting cycle for strength and hardening. Should be starting this week the day it arrives.

NICE!

Enuke65
12-16-2013, 10:47 PM
They were selling the Mestebol for 19.95, its now bumped up to 29.95 :(

Dragoninho
12-17-2013, 03:46 PM
I tried 5 Alpha Test from FRL at 4 tabs a day. It was... Ish. I actually didn't see much from it. But I read that someone recommend it at 2x3 a day, maybe should give it a shot again but try that dose instead?
I responded better to AH v2 than v3.. I saw more strenght gains and hardening effect from v2. But on the other hand I dosed v2 at 9 and 12 caps a day.
I have just runned Ah v3 at 6 caps a day.
My last run was for 16 weeks and sorry to say I didn't see much in hardening/recomp effect from it, but it made my gyno totally disapear, and that was the main goal so I should not complain.

But as so many others, I really want to find a good replacement for AH...

nate3993
12-17-2013, 05:10 PM
well. looks l will be the first one on here to try mestebol. that may end up being the new "dht" drug of choice.

as far as frl 5 alpha. i'd dose 3 pills, 3x a day. i wouldn't even both with 6 pills. it's feelable at 6, but who just wants to "feel" their hormone.

WesleyInman
12-17-2013, 11:37 PM
Check this product out..it is brand new.. AndroBomb.

Don't know the dosages but it has several compounds in it including Epiandro...

Wonder if this is super low dose or high??? Somewhat curious about it..anyone else hear about this??

Lean Bulk Supplements Andro Bomb - New Prohormone by AMS (http://leanbulksupps.com/blogs/news/10949297-andro-bomb-new-prohormone-by-ams)

nate3993
12-18-2013, 01:52 AM
it'll be low doses. if you look at the rest of their liquid line, i'm sure this will follow suit. i'm sure doing a larger dose than they recommend would yield solid results.

Right Hook
12-18-2013, 08:43 PM
Those liquids have to be dosed low bc they are intended for sublingual absorption. And the limited surface area in the mouth can't really take in any more than small doses at a time anyways.

For whatever reason them liquids are a lot more popular than the tabs.