Bench Press: Limiting Factors?

[Grape Ape]

I've always had a very low bench and small chest. I've been mostly lifting 5,3,1 for the last 6 months, with all my assisted lifts in the 8-12 window. I've recently switched my routine to accommodate even heavier weight, but my bench numbers will not go up(let alone my chest growing). Incidentally my squat numbers keep climbing weekly. Here's my current chest routine:

W/G Flat BB Bench: 6, 1, 6
Incline DB Bench: 3, 3, 3 +30 second fascia stretches
Weighted dips: 3, 3, 3
Pec Deck: 1 rest/pause set starting with 8 reps and going for 3 sets with 15 second rest.

Chest is paired with legs once a week on Monday. I feel my limiting factor may be tricep strength, but as I've said I have a tiny chest so it may be that. Thought about maybe benching twice a week now, or switching to a closer grip. Wondering also, if my heavy squats are exhausting me too much.

Any Tips?

[weekend]

switch to 4 sets of 12-15 for as heavy as you can go on your main pressing exercises.

my chest/bi workout yesterday:
warmup incline bb low rep with 135, 155
incline BB bench 4(ish) working sets of 185, 205, 225, 185 all for 8 reps but i think try going higher, i often do
preacher curl 5x10
flat db bench 4 sets of 10 with 90's
hammer curl 5x20(10 reps/arm)
decline smith close grip, worked up to 180(?) was 45 and 35 on each side
weighted dips, only 35 lbs but 4 sets of 12

the other thing is, how are your rows, rear delts and lats? i find that my stability on bench just goes up as soon as i work on these more

[O_RYAN_007]

great point regarding lats. I feel the same way with dips and bench... If my lats are strong so is my bench.

[Grape Ape]

Upper back is a strong point for me. Both aestheticly and strength.

My deadlift is weak too as I seem to have immense issues here. However I have a powerlifter friend of mine coming through to work on form.


How exactly is the higher reps supposed to help with my bench numbers? Keep in mind that up to the last few weeks I was benching mostly in the 12 rep range. Routine looked like this:

W/G BB Flat Bench: 5, 3, 1
W/G BB Incline Bench: 2x12
W/G BB Decline Bench: 2x12

Just trying to get a better understanding.

[Dcabedo]

I would seperate chest and legs. I to used to have a pretty weak/small chest but ever since my brother called me out on it I decided I needed a change.

heres my usual chest routine. I'll also switch focus between upper and lower chest each week.

flat db bench
-4 sets of 8-10(105, 110, 115, 125 lbs.) some days ill hit 125 for the last 2 sets for about 5 or 6 reps
decline hammer press
-4 sets of 8-10(135 lbs each side)
dips
-4 sets of 10(some days ill do weighted with a 45 plate)
incline bb bench
-4 sets of 10(135 lbs with pause reps...ill usually work up to 185 with pause reps.)
flyes
4 sets of 10-15(if i still have energy! haha)

[weekend]

Upper back is a strong point for me. Both aestheticly and strength.

My deadlift is weak too as I seem to have immense issues here. However I have a powerlifter friend of mine coming through to work on form.


How exactly is the higher reps supposed to help with my bench numbers? Keep in mind that up to the last few weeks I was benching mostly in the 12 rep range. Routine looked like this:

W/G BB Flat Bench: 5, 3, 1
W/G BB Incline Bench: 2x12
W/G BB Decline Bench: 2x12

Just trying to get a better understanding.

what is W/G?

that workout is not shit, your bench isnt going up because that is barely any work, even if it was really heavy that only should take 20 min max.. you need to hammer your chest for an hour at LEAST.

this is just my opinion, and i dont have a great chest and my bench is only 225x10,9,9 as of my last flat bench (working on 3 sets of 15)

but i believe volume training is what you need.

also deadlift will strengthen your glutes, i flex my glutes hard on bench and it helps a lot

edit: also where are the DB's!

[Dcabedo]

what is W/G?

Wide grip?

[xxiv]

nutrition, rest and routine.

I have had good results with a 5 day split and my 2 chest days being flat, incline overhead and dips, shrugs, pushups. I like working for 4 to 6 sets in 6 to 12 rep.

The key to any movement is lifting with all your heart. It sounds corny but I love benching and dead lifting and when I power lift those numbers climb. I have a dexterity and fortitude with them and I put everything I have into them. I don't have the same feeling when I back squat and it's reflected in my progress.

Consume those cals and get as much quality sleep as you can. Try not to stress the numbers and just maintain any semi-logical routine.

[Sorrow]

Chest is paired with legs once a week on Monday. I feel my limiting factor may be tricep strength, but as I've said I have a tiny chest so it may be that. Thought about maybe benching twice a week now, or switching to a closer grip. Wondering also, if my heavy squats are exhausting me too much.

Any Tips?

Does it seem like the bar is slow off the chest, or do you have trouble fully locking out the lift?

I wouldn't bench twice a week. Let yourself rest. If you over do it you for sure wont grow!

What do you consider a wide grip/ close grip? I've found good success bringing my grip in a little. I usually keep my middle finger on the rings these days. In practice the closer the grip the more tricep involvement you get.

IT is possible your body isn't recovering if you are really pushing it on squats. Lay off or go light on squat day just to see if you feel more stable on bench day. And it's cool your bro is going to come through and help check technique. Trying to push your max up with improper form leads to injury. And weather your worried about power or aesthetics an injury is no good.

Personaly I'd drop the dips for say a month and sub in some other tricep work. something like floor press or skull crushers.
Don't get frustrated! The potential is there, just a matter of setting yourself up for success.

[milehighguy]

I would split the leg and chest day up into 2 different days and spend more time on chest then what you do today. I do agree with weekend in that I don't think your hitting it hard/long enough.

[BeaverDan]

You said you've been doing 5/3/1 for a while, have you thought about switching it up? My bench went up the most doing a 5x5, 4 day, upper/lower split.... Hitting it twice a week made my bench jump a lot.

[O_RYAN_007]

Everyone here is giving sound advice. I love floor presses for triceps strength, and I'm with Sorrow here... Don't train chest twice a week. Have a day for legs, a day for chest or Upper, your choice. I also responded really well to adding bands to my DE Upper training. It strengthened my tris, chest, and shoulders. Over the past year, I've increased my bench from 275-365 by bringing my triceps up, my core, and driving from my legs. So you think you can bench from Dave tate really helped me, along with many others on this forum and Primordial.

[JM1000]

For a bigger bench, I would hit it 2x a week. Other than that, i like to get on a thiner bench... Helps scapula movement during the exercise. Have you watched a powerlifting tutorial om how to bench? There is alot to learn from powerlifting technique.. I don't have the biggest bench but have improved lately. Good luck!

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and bands of course! Even better! Chains if your gym has some!;)

[Grape Ape]

Keep in mind I am focused more on my numbers right now, and the heavier weight has def added some needed size prior to this fall I only worked in the 8-12 range.

@Weekend: Again, I'm mostly focused on numbers right now rather than chest size. As for the small chest routine; I was on a 2 day split and pressed for time, due to some serious personal issues. I do agree that I would need much more work/volume and it will be coming. For now, focus on the routine I have up now. There's incline DBs in there and W/G=wide grip.

@Sorrow: Ring finger on the second set of rings would be my wide grip. And I'd sy the bar is slow off my chest. Lockout seems pretty good. As for my buddy; dude is the strongest Natty I know, so I always turn to him when it comes.to form. He comes to me for diet. With the dips they are more chest dips with me on an angle. I have some heavy tricep work too.

I'll post my full routine in a little. Keep in mind I just started this.

[O_RYAN_007]

Keep in mind I am focused more on my numbers right now, and the heavier weight has def added some needed size prior to this fall I only worked in the 8-12 range.

@Weekend: Again, I'm mostly focused on numbers right now rather than chest size. As for the small chest routine; I was on a 2 day split and pressed for time, due to some serious personal issues. I do agree that I would need much more work/volume and it will be coming. For now, focus on the routine I have up now. There's incline DBs in there and W/G=wide grip.

@Sorrow: Ring finger on the second set of rings would be my wide grip. And I'd sy the bar is slow off my chest. Lockout seems pretty good. As for my buddy; dude is the strongest Natty I know, so I always turn to him when it comes.to form. He comes to me for diet. With the dips they are more chest dips with me on an angle. I have some heavy tricep work too.

I'll post my full routine in a little. Keep in mind I just started this.

How long ago?

[Grape Ape]

Monday: Legs+Chest

Back squat: 6, 1, 6
Box squat: 3, 3, 3
Leg press: 3, 3, 3
Leg extension: 1 rest/pause set starting @8 reps
Leg Curls: 1rest/pause set starting @8 reps

W/G Flat BB Bench: 6, 1, 6
Incline DB Bench: 3, 3, 3 +30 second fascia stretches
Weighted dips: 3, 3, 3
Pec Deck: 1 rest/pause set starting with 8 reps

Wednesday: Arms+Abs

Barbell Curl: 5, 5, 5
DB Pinwheel Curls: 5, 5, 5
Reverse Drag Curl: 5, 5, 5

Seated DB Pullover: 5, 5, 5
Extra C/G Bench: 5, 5, 5
Tricep pushdown: 5, 5, 5

Friday: Back+Shoulders

Deadlift: 6, 1, 6
1 Arm DB Row: 3, 3, 3 + 30second Fascia Stretch
Weighted pull ups: 3, 3, 3
Inverted Row: 1 Rest/Pause set starting @8 reps

Standing Military Press: 6, 1, 6
Hang Clean: 3, 3, 3
Arnold Press: 3, 3, 3
Lateral Raises: 1 Rest Pause set starting @8 reps

I left out abs, trap and calf work as I think they are irrelevant to what we are doing here, but can post them if need be.

If anyone wants the 2 day split posted I can do that too

[Grape Ape]

@O_Ryan: Today marked the start of week 3, but more or less I've been working out the bugs. May throw the fascia stretching on all body parts. Next

[Dcabedo]

If you just started, I'd say stick with it a little longer then really assess from there.

[Grape Ape]

If you just started, I'd say stick with it a little longer then really assess from there.
Of course. I'm very happy with how everything has been progressing, except my stalled bench. Figured the guys here would be able to help out. Maybe move some things around or replace them with others, etc...

[Rodja]

In all of this discussion, there has yet to be a mention of technique or a video looking for criticism of your technique. More often than not, the technique itself is going to be the limiting factor. Another factor is that you're training your chest and not your bench (they're not the same).

[Grape Ape]

Please do go on...

[sandman]

1. I wouldn't recommend squat and bench on the same day.

2. Work your chest more than twice a week, start at twice then maybe three times, even up to four times a week.

3. If you want size then don't worry about your strength numbers. They aren't nearly as important as getting more stress on your chest muscles. Strength is just numbers, numbers are blown out of proportion when size and shape are the main thing.

4. Don't bench press, work with dumb bells which are much better for chest development.

[Rodja]

Please do go on...

The bench press is a full-body movement that requires it to be trained as such. Contrary to what BB'ers believe, the bench press is NOT a chest exercise. If you're chasing numbers, then you first need to analyze your technical weaknesses before trying to fix the problem with exercises and learning a properly executed bench press takes years to truly master, which is another reason to not train it once a week.

[Grape Ape]

Rodja,

I'd say technical weekness(if I'm following you right) is getting the bar off my chest, and possibly my tricep strength. That is why I switched to the sets of 5 reps on tricep exercises. Figured the heavier weight would help. Though again, not being able to get the bar off my chest easily seems as if it may be exactly that; a chest problem.

Since this thread has come to focus on chest size too, and God knows I could use more; what is your chest exercise recommendations?

[Rodja]

Rodja,

I'd say technical weekness(if I'm following you right) is getting the bar off my chest, and possibly my tricep strength. That is why I switched to the sets of 5 reps on tricep exercises. Figured the heavier weight would help. Though again, not being able to get the bar off my chest easily seems as if it may be exactly that; a chest problem.

Since this thread has come to focus on chest size too, and God knows I could use more; what is your chest exercise recommendations?

What you described is your sticking point/physical weakness and not necessarily a technical weakness. Without a video, it's impossible to give out advice on where you may or may not have a technical weakness.

Chest size is not something that you should concern yourself with if your goals are pure numbers. Strength, yes, but not size. Personally, I am a huge advocate of weighted dips, close grip incline presses, floor press, and JM presses to increase your bench strength.

[Macdon1588]

What you described is your sticking point/physical weakness and not necessarily a technical weakness. Without a video, it's impossible to give out advice on where you may or may not have a technical weakness.

Chest size is not something that you should concern yourself with if your goals are pure numbers. Strength, yes, but not size. Personally, I am a huge advocate of weighted dips, close grip incline presses, floor press, and JM presses to increase your bench strength.

Not to rob the thread, but what's you recommendation for size?

[Sorrow]

In all of this discussion, there has yet to be a mention of technique or a video looking for criticism of your technique. More often than not, the technique itself is going to be the limiting factor. Another factor is that you're training your chest and not your bench (they're not the same).



And it's cool your bro is going to come through and help check technique. Trying to push your max up with improper form leads to injury. And weather your worried about power or aesthetics an injury is no good.


I mentioned technique, and I was under the impression he was having someone coming to check his technique.


Besides that why don't you try pausing at the bottom of your reps? Whatever your normal cadence is add a 2 or 3 second pause at the bottom while the bar is resting on your chest each rep.

Is an interesting discussion you started here. Some things I agree with. Some I don't. But, that doesnt mean any of it is wrong. Just different then my own approach.

[Rodja]

Not to rob the thread, but what's you recommendation for size?

I'm not one of those people that believes a certain exercise is going to make or break a routine. Also, a person biomechanics plays a huge role in this as well.


I mentioned technique, and I was under the impression he was having someone coming to check his technique.


Besides that why don't you try pausing at the bottom of your reps? Whatever your normal cadence is add a 2 or 3 second pause at the bottom while the bar is resting on your chest each rep.

Is an interesting discussion you started here. Some things I agree with. Some I don't. But, that doesnt mean any of it is wrong. Just different then my own approach.

It's my approach to take out the muscle philosophy and treat the lifts as whole-body exercise. Once you do this, you begin to realize that you cannot isolate and only train a certain part within the lift and expect improvements. It would be like neglecting core and upper back strength, but wanting a bigger squat.

[Sorrow]

I do agree whole heartedly that each lift is in fact a whole body exercise.
However, I don't agree that you cant train to correct a particular portion of a lift. Example being floor press assisting my lockout. I have no ability whatsoever to generate leg drive when performing a floor press. However, in practice utilizing nearly the same movements in the bench press for several weeks followed by floor pressing I made great strides in the upper portion/lockout of the bench press. Despite using the same weight on the primary exercise for multiple weeks. Just my opinion here but I believe in targeting weakness's with specific accessory work to improve the areas you're weak in.

[Rodja]

I do agree whole heartedly that each lift is in fact a whole body exercise.
However, I don't agree that you cant train to correct a particular portion of a lift. Example being floor press assisting my lockout. I have no ability whatsoever to generate leg drive when performing a floor press. However, in practice utilizing nearly the same movements in the bench press for several weeks followed by floor pressing I made great strides in the upper portion/lockout of the bench press. Despite using the same weight on the primary exercise for multiple weeks. Just my opinion here but I believe in targeting weakness's with specific accessory work to improve the areas you're weak in.

That's not what I'm talking about, though.

[burlyman30]

Everyone's biomechanics are different, but could it be that the wide grip itself is a limiting factor? I have no idea how you are built and how that width affects the alignment of arm/elbow travel throughout the movement. For me, a wide grip puts the shoulders and triceps at a very weak mechanical position.

[Rodja]

Everyone's biomechanics are different, but could it be that the wide grip itself is a limiting factor? I have no idea how you are built and how that width affects the alignment of arm/elbow travel throughout the movement. For me, a wide grip puts the shoulders and triceps at a very weak mechanical position.

Yes, it very well could be.

[sandman]

Not to rob the thread, but what's you recommendation for size?


It's more than just size in general. You'd have to look in the mirror and see what part of your chest is lacking. For most people the upper chest is a weak point. So bringing that part up may not add size but will give a much fuller appearance. If it's the lower pec than decline dumbbell press becomes important. It was actually Dorian Yates favorite mass exercise for chest. Also don't overlook isolation movements that play a key factor in filling in weakness in a physique.

[Grape Ape]

Though I perform bench press variations I was under the impression that you can't isolate any one part of the pectoral muscle, because of the way the muscle fibers lie, forcing all of them to be stimulated.

[Grape Ape]

I'm going to switch to a closer grip and see how that treats me.

As for my build; I started this journey @ 6ft 135lbs, and I sit around 180-185lbs. So even though I've put 40lbs+ on I have an extremely thin frame, but I'm neither all legs or have lanky arms.

[Coolazice]

1. I wouldn't recommend squat and bench on the same day.

2. Work your chest more than twice a week, start at twice then maybe three times, even up to four times a week.

3. If you want size then don't worry about your strength numbers. They aren't nearly as important as getting more stress on your chest muscles. Strength is just numbers, numbers are blown out of proportion when size and shape are the main thing.

4. Don't bench press, work with dumb bells which are much better for chest development.

Nice to see you posting something positive and constructive. Please continue! :cool:

[sandman]

Nice to see you posting something positive and constructive. Please continue! :cool:

Negative or positive, I just want to share honesty. Just trying to help him the best I can.

[WesleyInman]

Nice thread..good info from all different angles.

I don't wanna come here as a newbie and give any advice, so please don't take this the wrong way, but I made a video with few different techniques I have found effective for adding strength. I do agree with Sandman that when looking for size, strength is not as important..I get bigger from lighter weights...but either way maybe you might see a technique you like in this? Just a few ideas for consideration :)

5- Steps to a Stronger Bench Press- Wesley Inman Strongman - Prescription Nutrition - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNWGdXni5Y8)

[h2s]

Wesley,


Don't worry about being new to the community, your opinion and advice is very welcome here. Video looks well made, will check it out at home when I can use audio (I am at work).

[burlyman30]

Wesley,


Don't worry about being new to the community, your opinion and advice is very welcome here. Video looks well made, will check it out at home when I can use audio (I am at work).

x2. Glad to have you on board and we want you to voice your opinions!

[Sorrow]

@ Rodja, ok my misunderstanding.

@ Wesley, I think you're more then qualified! All are welcome. There's always something new to learn. At least for me anyways.

[JM1000]

Nice video! Thanks for sharing. I'm always willing to learn from the more experienced.

[Rodja]

Though I perform bench press variations I was under the impression that you can't isolate any one part of the pectoral muscle, because of the way the muscle fibers lie, forcing all of them to be stimulated.

There is a clavicular head that kind take the emphasis with an incline movement, but they cannot be isolated.

[milehighguy]

but I made a video with few different techniques I have found effective for adding strength. I do agree with Sandman that when looking for size, strength is not as important..I get bigger from lighter weights...but either way maybe you might see a technique you like in this? Just a few ideas for consideration :)

Good stuff...
Your tempo is fast but maybe that was on mostly on your warm-up sets

[O_RYAN_007]

Nice thread..good info from all different angles.

I don't wanna come here as a newbie and give any advice, so please don't take this the wrong way, but I made a video with few different techniques I have found effective for adding strength. I do agree with Sandman that when looking for size, strength is not as important..I get bigger from lighter weights...but either way maybe you might see a technique you like in this? Just a few ideas for consideration :)

5- Steps to a Stronger Bench Press- Wesley Inman Strongman - Prescription Nutrition - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNWGdXni5Y8)

Pretty good tips Wes! Whats that topical cream name, and what does it do? Pain reliever?

[Sorrow]

There is a clavicular head that kind take the emphasis with an incline movement, but they cannot be isolated.

I was kind of under the impression that muscle wise there is the Pectoralis major as a prime mover, Clavicular more or less acted to stabilize/ provide a base for the pectoralis to act against. But only for a short time "off the chest" or the hole for the bench press.
Completely agree they cant be isolated from each other, maybe more or less dominate depending on angle, but not isolated.

As the bar moves further away from the chest it provides less to the lift and the triceps take over. The biceps act to limit the triceps slowing the press as you close in on lockout. A protection to keep from tearing the triceps off the bone.

What I'm thinking is a stronger starting force off the chest in his case would help carry him into the tricep dominate portion. Thats what I was leaning toward a paused rep to remove any stretch reflex at the bottom of the lift. Force him to stay tight and generate more of the starting power from muscular contraction not reaction. Just my thought anyway.

There is lots of good info and perspectives in this thread.

[WesleyInman]

Pretty good tips Wes! Whats that topical cream name, and what does it do? Pain reliever?
The topical lotion is made by Absorbine JR. You can buy it online or at local feed stores. We have a store called Tractor Supply that they sell it at..its like $12 bucks. I got turned on to it about 8 years ago from Worlds Strongest Man Competitors.

Its for horses legs, for arthritis, etc..but it is amazing. Best topical that exists IMO. It relieves joint aches, muscle aches, etc..all without the menthol feeling. No hot or cold..It dulls and supposedly helps heal the area bc it improves circulation. I swear by this stuff..I have bad tendonitis, and I apply a dime sized amount to each elbow before pressing and I can train 100% no issues. Love the stuff...Try it if you have a chance :)

Thank you and everyone else here for the kind words as well!

[O_RYAN_007]

The topical lotion is made by Absorbine JR. You can buy it online or at local feed stores. We have a store called Tractor Supply that they sell it at..its like $12 bucks. I got turned on to it about 8 years ago from Worlds Strongest Man Competitors.

Its for horses legs, for arthritis, etc..but it is amazing. Best topical that exists IMO. It relieves joint aches, muscle aches, etc..all without the menthol feeling. No hot or cold..It dulls and supposedly helps heal the area bc it improves circulation. I swear by this stuff..I have bad tendonitis, and I apply a dime sized amount to each elbow before pressing and I can train 100% no issues. Love the stuff...Try it if you have a chance :)

Thank you and everyone else here for the kind words as well!


I'll stop my my local tractor supply this weekend when I go to visit my family.

[burlyman30]

I'll stop my my local tractor supply this weekend when I go to visit my family.

Amazon also carries it.