Lat pull downs vs pull ups

[Cdsnuts]

Who's considered stronger? Someone who can max out the pull down machine or the guy that can strap a bunch of plates to a dip belt and bang out a bunch of pull ups?

What's the difference?

[weekend]

Clearly weighted pull ups!!

[LBC-83]

Pull-ups - I don't even see this as a contest.

[USN HM 350Z]

pull ups hands down. Even for me at 230lbs, I start my back routine with 4 sets of pullups, usually 8-10 reps each. No kipping, keeping the body still and squeezing at the top.

[Scope75]

No contest PULL-UPS!!!

[JM1000]

They guy who can do both!

[Scope75]

They guy who can do both!

That would be the PULL-UP guy....

[pman42]

pullups are tougher because either you can do them or you can't. with the lat pulldown you can involve the biceps, back and whole body. you see those guys almost parallel to the floor with way more than they should have on the pulldown and yo just think, "why?"

[Cdsnuts]

I agree with all of you. But what about the guy that can't do many pull ups but can rack the pull down machine? That's some kind of strength, no? I guess I'm just not sure how they differ seeing they both focus on the same muscle group.

I'm looking to keep redundancy out of my routine, but thought there may be a reason for both.

I'm 210 at the moment and can hit 20 pull ups on my first and second set, so I'm looking to add weight. That's another question entirely....

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pull ups hands down. Even for me at 230lbs, I start my back routine with 4 sets of pullups, usually 8-10 reps each. No kipping, keeping the body still and squeezing at the top.

Do you alternate grip? Wide, neutral, etc?

[Cdsnuts]

pullups are tougher because either you can do them or you can't. with the lat pulldown you can involve the biceps, back and whole body. you see those guys almost parallel to the floor with way more than they should have on the pulldown and yo just think, "why?"

Yes, but those same muscle groups are used in pull ups as well.....

[sandman]

Pull downs and I don't see this as being close. They hit the target muscles in a much better fashion and much better squeeze on the back muscles. Too many people do pull ups just to get through the motion rather than concentrating on the muscles being used to work. I don't see putting in a movement that more about the motion than it is the muscles being used.

[USN HM 350Z]

yes, I do the first two sets a little wider than shoulder length, then a set of reverse grip and a set of neutral grip to finish things off.

[Scope75]

Pull downs and I don't see this as being close. They hit the target muscles in a much better fashion and much better squeeze on the back muscles. Too many people do pull ups just to get through the motion rather than concentrating on the muscles being used to work. I don't see putting in a movement that more about the motion than it is the muscles being used.

I can cheat way more on a pull down than a pull-up.
I also see more people in the gym cheating on pull downs than pull-ups

[olddawg]

Pull ups, then dropset with pull downs. I'm 220 now so a set of 8-10 of them, then right to pulldowns with 160, then another of 90, 5 min rest lol

[sandman]

I can cheat way more on a pull down than a pull-up.
I also see more people in the gym cheating on pull downs than pull-ups

Besides the people who turn the lat pulldown into a row. I see more people doing full ROM on lat pulldown but not pull ups. To many people either don't go down all the way or don't pull all the way up. The classic chin extension to make people believe they got a full rep. And it's ok to cheat but I feel when people seem to cheat on chin ups they are only worried about completeing a rep rather than the muscles that are supposed to be working.

[islandmagic]

wide grip pull-ups with 40lb xvest... all the way down pause then all the way up slow is the key to get that burn.. 8 sets of 10 reps

pull-ups is my staple!!!!

[Jelisej]

Pull-ups is considered as one of the best exercises and I think almost every bb/pl programs include them.
Personaly for me body weight pull-ups are no 1 exercise, as it generate very good hormonal response with less taxes than compunded exercies for lower body. There are so many muscles involved, including abs. And I also consider BW pull-ups as a cardio as well.
Weighted pull-ups IMO are not as good (especially wide ones) as they put too much strain on rotator cuff which is bad thing IMO.
Sometimes I do towel pull-ups, they hit upper back big time and arms- and they did strenghten my grip strenght a bit (and my grip strenght is one of the weaknesses). Thanks to towel pull-ups I was able to deadlift more weight.

[Cdsnuts]

So then we have most saying pull ups and some saying pull downs. Interesting. There has to be some difference between the two. What confuses me is that If I did the same amount of weight on the lat pull down as I do with pull ups (210lbs) I wouldn't be able to do as many pull downs as I could do pull ups with the same weight. This is what I can't get my head around.

[Rodja]

A machine is never a better substitute than it's free-weight counterpart.

[xxiv]

So then we have most saying pull ups and some saying pull downs. Interesting. There has to be some difference between the two. What confuses me is that If I did the same amount of weight on the lat pull down as I do with pull ups (210lbs) I wouldn't be able to do as many pull downs as I could do pull ups with the same weight. This is what I can't get my head around.

mechanical disadvantage?

[Fat Bill Dwyer]

So then we have most saying pull ups and some saying pull downs. Interesting. There has to be some difference between the two. What confuses me is that If I did the same amount of weight on the lat pull down as I do with pull ups (210lbs) I wouldn't be able to do as many pull downs as I could do pull ups with the same weight. This is what I can't get my head around.


I think this might be because of excercise specificity. You get good at what you train properly. Maybe you do really good pull-downs and have adapted to them well. Also pull-downs practically beg to be "cheated" on. Not that this is a bad thing, just saying you can get the bar down using muscles you couldn't use to get chest up on a pull-up.

[O_RYAN_007]

I say pull-ups, but I do both on back day. I start my routine off with 2 warm up sets @ 15, wide grip, then move onto weighted pull-ups with 50#s on my belt (5x8), I'm 200#s. I do 3 ultra wide, then the last 2-3 sets will be with a little more narrow grip. I go all the way down, pause, then come back up.

[burlyman30]

Though these two exercises look very similar, they are two very different exercises and hit the back differently. Try an experiment: do a workout with 10 sets of pullups only. Note the way your lats feel your traps feel and your shoulders feel. On the next workout, do 10 sets of pull downs only. You will feel that this exercise hits the lats traps and shoulders all differently than pull ups. Both the angle of approach, and the angle of completion are very different in the two exercises.

[Scope75]

Burly
I've done just that before and your spot on where I felt the difference and that's why I do both.

[Cdsnuts]

Though these two exercises look very similar, they are two very different exercises and hit the back differently. Try an experiment: do a workout with 10 sets of pullups only. Note the way your lats feel your traps feel and your shoulders feel. On the next workout, do 10 sets of pull downs only. You will feel that this exercise hits the lats traps and shoulders all differently than pull ups. Both the angle of approach, and the angle of completion are very different in the two exercises.

So then it would be a safe assumption that if you wanted full and complete back development, including them both into your routine would be wise.

[burlyman30]

So then it would be a safe assumption that if you wanted full and complete back development, including them both into your routine would be wise.

Full and complete back development is going to take a lot more than two movements. Sure, you can do both movements, though you wouldn't have to do them both every week. Some months I do nothing but variations of rowing exercises and the next month I get back to pull ups/downs. I think variation is key when it comes to lat/trap development as there are so many angles to hit it from.

[olddawg]

I will do some sort of row be it single db, or seated, hands close or wide, etc....pull up or down, and rack pulls or deads every week for back. Variations of all 3 with pre ex exercises like maybe an underhand lat pull down then overhand grip, or pull overs then pull ups, etc.... but I will have some form of those 3 movements every week for back

[burlyman30]

I will do some sort of row be it single db, or seated, hands close or wide, etc....pull up or down, and rack pulls or deads every week for back. Variations of all 3 with pre ex exercises like maybe an underhand lat pull down then overhand grip, or pull overs then pull ups, etc.... but I will have some form of those 3 movements every week for back

Before I started my deadlifting again, I typically would do a month where I started with rows and finished with pulldowns and then the next month would start with pulldowns and finish with rows. Then some months I want to concentrate specifically on back thickness, for instance, and just do a whole workout of rowing movements for a month. Now that I'm deadlifting, I don't have anything left in my lower back to do rows and pulldowns are uncomfortable, so pullups it is. I get a lot of lower lat and rear/upper trap work from the deadlift, so the pullup provides stretch, scapular rotation, and some upper/outer lat work.

[Cdsnuts]

Full and complete back development is going to take a lot more than two movements. Sure, you can do both movements, though you wouldn't have to do them both every week. Some months I do nothing but variations of rowing exercises and the next month I get back to pull ups/downs. I think variation is key when it comes to lat/trap development as there are so many angles to hit it from.

Lol....Maybe I should have been more clear. What I should have said was that in order to achieve full development, pull ups and pull downs should be done along with my other movements. Wouldn't it be nice if those two movements were all you needed....

[Cdsnuts]

Some months I do nothing but variations of rowing exercises and the next month I get back to pull ups/downs. I think variation is key when it comes to lat/trap development as there are so many angles to hit it from.

In regards to this, don't the other areas of your back kind of.....stagnate if you don't work them for a whole month? Or do the other exercises use the muscles enough to compensate? I'd be paranoid that I wasn't getting a "full work out" if I just focused on rows and no pull downs or vice versa.

[olddawg]

think of the shock your back will get once you switch from one to the other, shock, adaptation and growth, plateau, repeat

When I was a soldier in Germany in the 80's I went out drinking one night and couldn't remember where I parked my car the next day. had to bike 18 k each way to the base every day for 10 days, my legs got shocked and grew a ton quickly to compensate for the new exercise. Eventually the polizi came and got me to pick up my car, it was down this hill parked on a sidewalk lol Point is if you shock the hell out of your muscles, they'll adapt cause they have to. if you do lose anything during a month's rest it won't be much and will be more than made up for during the growth cycle

[Jelisej]

Burly,Olddawg- nice to hear your feedback. Lot of knowledge and experience.
Anyway- what is your's opinion of towel pull-ups? I've got impression that they hit back muscles big time?

[olddawg]

I tried to do them once, but when I took my towel off everyone started laughing so hard that I had to put it back on

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nah lol, I've never tried them so no experience here sorry jj

[burlyman30]

In regards to this, don't the other areas of your back kind of.....stagnate if you don't work them for a whole month? Or do the other exercises use the muscles enough to compensate? I'd be paranoid that I wasn't getting a "full work out" if I just focused on rows and no pull downs or vice versa.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, specializing on one area still provides enough stimulation to keep most of the other attributes. Anything "lost" seems to come back in a week or two.

[burlyman30]

Burly,Olddawg- nice to hear your feedback. Lot of knowledge and experience.
Anyway- what is your's opinion of towel pull-ups? I've got impression that they hit back muscles big time?

Have to have someone on the other end of the towel who is equally strong, so that's a disadvantage. However, you can use tension bands wrapped around a pole to get the same effect. Great stretch, targets lower and outer lats, and gives a great pump.

[Cobalt]

Missed this topic.... whats a pull up exactly? :)