Olddawg is getting beat down on his cut

[olddawg]

things are quiet so I thought I'd toss this up. I've been cutting for a bit now, started on tren and just down to test and var. I'm hypothyroid and on a script to keep it working properly, but the tren always slows my thyroid and makes cutting nearly impossible. It takes quite a few weeks for it to return to normal after stopping the tren so getting the metabolism up and keeping it there is maybe 2-3x the work of a normal person.

and I'm getting fucking tired lol.

body is getting beat down, doing 45 min cardio and walking about an hour a day, sore elbows making curls and pulling motions nearly impossible, knees are stiff and I just noticed that strength has come down quite a bit and I could only do half as many reps squatting 3 plates as I normally do. That was thurs, so I took Fri, sat and sun totally off, ate some carbs and some junk food, this morning's fasted cardio I felt strong and body had a good rest so I'm back at it.

I ran into this last spring and ended up bailing out cause I just wasn't into the cut as much, but this year I swear I will do it and laugh in the face of this fucking thyroid. I've got about 6 weeks left to the cycle and hope to drop 10-12lbs of fat still. i'm sitting today at about 219 though I think I've lost some size in my quads.

On burly's thread on peps I decided to reconstitute a couple of bottles and they were effective for the first 3-5 days or so, then nothing noticeable other than hunger which is deadly for me right now.

so that's where od sits, old man fighting away at the body that just wants to sit around, eat chips and get fat

[burlyman30]

Some parallels here... I had been leaning out a bit. Recomping at 180 and abs were starting to become visible again... muscles were growing and I was beginning to get insatiable hunger. My body wanted to feed the growth. So I ate. And ate. And ate. Lol. I felt much better in 3 days and had filled out quite a bit. Got on the scale... up 8 lbs. Hahaha. Trying now find a balance of feeding new growth and my hunger while not losing all the ground I've gained.

On the does joints... get on hyaluronic acid and maybe some cissus to see if that helps.

On the diet... give yourself permission occasionally to do what you did, by refeeding and recharging, then get back on the horse. You won't lose much ground, and it's beneficial mentally and physically when on a long term cut.

[olddawg]

fuuuuuck I'm getting old burly. I'm on hyaluronic acid, msm and glucosamine. I want to stay away from the cissus as last time I used it, when I came off it I felt like the tin man, terrible, as it masks your actual pain. I'd rather feel what I'm doing tot he joints instead. I think the var at 40mg ed played a big part in the dryness and I'm feeling a tiny bit of relief dropping it to 30, not sure if that's enough to make a difference but I can take a piss in less than 30 min now too.

the permission to eat is a big one, I have to get my head around that. usually i'll be strict and refeeds are 2 meals of about 60g carbs, big bowls of cereal or something like that. I need to pull up to an all you can eat buffet and tuck my bib in fat OD style and just go for it. ahhh, feeling better already

[Scope75]

OD, find the thread DJM posted about cheat meals because it explains why you need them and that it actually gets shit going again.

[olddawg]

thanks, yeah I know this, it's my personality of pushing things too far, it's good in ways as I've gained more than ippy in the same time he's been working out, but bad cause I want to push things beyond where they should go. and that's for everything, workouts, gear, diet, etc... my mind believes that I can actually make things happen with enough effort--anything lol. sometimes I can.

[Coolazice]

Have you considered doing a high volume, light weight, short rest workout, to give your joints a break and still get some of the cardio work benefits out of it?

[burlyman30]

Treat the refeeds as part of the strategy. The strategy that gets you further, rather than viewing it as a "cheat". Every competitive bber I have talked with "stalls out" on their fat loss at some point, where the body simply wants to hold onto its setpoint fat level. When they go on a binge, usually out of reasons of starvation and lack of discipline, they miraculously start leaning out again as soon as they get back to their diet.

So for a guy like you, who will discipline himself to the utmost on the diet and training, you can actually work against yourself by not giving yourself proper rest recuperation, and nutrients. So you'll have to mentally reframe those things as strategic moves.

[DJM]

So for a guy like you, who will discipline himself to the utmost on the diet and training, you can actually work against yourself by not giving yourself proper rest recuperation, and nutrients. So you'll have to mentally reframe those things as strategic moves.

i knew my lack of discipline was for a greater cause:p

[Scope75]

I know how you feel and I had a hard time allowing myself to cheat and eat like a mad man but I've been doing at least weekly refeeds if not daily carbs after I lift.
Since summer is coming up ill be refeeding every 4-5 days instead of daily.

[olddawg]

Have you considered doing a high volume, light weight, short rest workout, to give your joints a break and still get some of the cardio work benefits out of it?
just finishing that, I had to go to it cause of some other injuries a month or so ago, I ended up just doing reps to failure no matter what weight I was at lol, it helped cure my right rotator cuff but elbows are now sore so i'm going to just a m-w-f push pull legs and cardio on the other days, but heavier again. just finished working out and felt strong again, new high weight for incline bench for reps (I know, pushing it again lol)


Treat the refeeds as part of the strategy. The strategy that gets you further, rather than viewing it as a "cheat". Every competitive bber I have talked with "stalls out" on their fat loss at some point, where the body simply wants to hold onto its setpoint fat level. When they go on a binge, usually out of reasons of starvation and lack of discipline, they miraculously start leaning out again as soon as they get back to their diet.

So for a guy like you, who will discipline himself to the utmost on the diet and training, you can actually work against yourself by not giving yourself proper rest recuperation, and nutrients. So you'll have to mentally reframe those things as strategic moves.

this is insightful, using it as part of the strategy, just no weighing day after, +8lbs causes a whole bunch of other problems in my mind lol and I know the scale doesn't matter.


I know how you feel and I had a hard time allowing myself to cheat and eat like a mad man but I've been doing at least weekly refeeds if not daily carbs after I lift.
Since summer is coming up ill be refeeding every 4-5 days instead of daily.

I've been stretching 7-9 days and it's worked until now, but fkn brick wall last week, time to adapt. Maybe I'll have to spark one up once a week to help collapse my self discipline.

[Jelisej]

OD, I'm not sure what could cause an issues- but I would just add that you should not try to upp thyroid meds dose or something- as its possible that your cortisol is bit down.
Now- cortisol is transporting thyroid hormones in cells and if cortisol is insufficient obviously they will pile up- now when cortisol goes up- it will start using thyroid hormones (and if it is a lot there it could potentialy cause thyroid storm)
If your thyroid hormones are too high compared to cortisol you will have irregular heart beat and feel weak, worn out.

Other option is that your thyroid hormones are bit depleted from tren if that's the case it will take you couple of weeks to get to the point where you'll be able to continue your cut.

In any case probably best option is to wait.

[olddawg]

thanks jj, and everyone else too, all the advice is appreciated. jj, let me give you some more information and see if it changes your opinion.

-I've been on 24mg ephedrine and 200mg caffeine 3x a day with weekends off for about 8 weeks (cortisol up right)
-last about 2 weeks, ,maybe 12 days 100mcg ghrp2 and same of mod 1-29 (cortisol and prolactin up right?)
-prior to that about 6 weeks maybe 8 on low dose tren
-taking also 1mg of caber a week split in 2 doses (so prolactin down)
-was taking letro at 2.5mg ed, then got some lumps and sensitivity, added in aromasin as a desperate measure, nothing helped
-just ended up dropping the tren

I do have a tren resource/opinion for you if you need for the tren Trenbolone lowers T4 and T3 - Professional Muscle (http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/90706-trenbolone-lowers-t4-t3.html#post1359583)

so I don't mess with my script dose, it's 150mcg ed, pharma. Looking at that above, I think it may just have been too complicated, or maybe I should explore bromo instead of caber.

[JM1000]

Saturday I had a cheese bacon at Five guys w/ the big size fries... and apple pie :) ... Sundays deadlift w/o was fantastic... One step back will sometimes give you two steps forward lol

[DJM]

Saturday I had a cheese bacon at Five guys w/ the big size fries... and apple pie :) ... Sundays deadlift w/o was fantastic... One step back will sometimes give you two steps forward lol

i killed lafleurs saturday, havent done much since

[olddawg]

it's settled then, a bacon cheeseburger and poutine Friday, Saturday, and sunday ;) there's no lafleurs in my neck of the woods though, might have to make it all myself

[Jelisej]

It's impossible to really tell without bloods- but still I dont think your cortisol is sufficient, ephedrine increases norepinephrine/noradrenalin
caffeine pushes adrenals to work harder but its questionable how much they can produce, ghrp-2's increase in cortisol should be short lived... prolactin is most likely down, and it will stay down for another couple of weeks (caber/dostinex is quite effective)
Progesterone is definitely messed up, I beleive that tren fucks up progesteron big time (hence gyno) tough I'm not sure how it does;
in any case you'll need some time to take it easy (IMO)

Too much norepinephrine, and I think that stuff can cause serious difficulties for libido/erections.
I'm thinking that some medications for anxieties etc that reduce norepinephirene and increase dopamine could be interesting for lot of guys here...

Your thyroid treatment seems outdated- T3+T4 is proven to be more effective than T4 alone, or even armured grain+ little T4.
150mcg is kind of getting close to full replacement dose.

[olddawg]

that's exactly what I did, dropped the tren lol. my libido and erections are normal and I will ask my doc next bloods about altering the thyroid treatment, she likely has no idea about it so i'll have to come prepared with some info for her.

pisses me off, having these issues on the tren as the first 3 cycles or so were good. I am prone to searching to solve the problem rather than drop tren forever. but maybe not, we'll see, if I can't get a handle on issues while on the tren next time around it may just be more trouble than it's worth for my genetics. we'll see.

if I had an endo he'd fuckin kill me wouldn't he lmao

[olddawg]

you know today I felt strong, 45 min ellipticle, hour plus brisk walk and about a 40 min chest tricep workout. I just needed a rest I think, maybe more mental than physical not sure

[USN HM 350Z]

again, if you decide not to do Tren again you know where to send that.... and the Var hahahahaha

Hope the thyroid issue gets sorted out though.

[olddawg]

again, if you decide not to do Tren again you know where to send that.... and the Var hahahahaha

Hope the thyroid issue gets sorted out though.

leech!

[USN HM 350Z]

leech!

I prefer opportunist hahaha

[olddawg]

ha ha ha, you obviously don't know how cheap I am lol, but if it goes, you're first on the list

[USN HM 350Z]

ha ha ha, you obviously don't know how cheap I am lol, but if it goes, you're first on the list

the closer I get to retirement, the cheaper I get. 5 more years and I will be joining you guys in the great white north.

[olddawg]

the closer I get to retirement, the cheaper I get. 5 more years and I will be joining you guys in the great white north.

I've got a spare room man, but you have to keep up to me in the gym :eek:

[USN HM 350Z]

I dont think the wife and kids would fit in the room with me lol. I will do my best to keep up.

[olddawg]

i'll be 52 by then so I should be an inch or two smaller, and we'll cram the family in no worries, big house lol

[JM1000]

it's settled then, a bacon cheeseburger and poutine Friday, Saturday, and sunday ;) there's no lafleurs in my neck of the woods though, might have to make it all myself

Poutine eh! I like your style OD... Didn't have one of those in ages! What part of Can are you?

[olddawg]

i'm southern Ontario just past London, maybe 9-10 hours from you, get the lafleur's family size ;)

[olddawg]

so weak again today during cardio, but I fought through 45 min of it. I really think this might be more sleep related as I sleep like shit. I should track my sleeps and how I feel throughout the day for the future

[Cobalt]

Poor sleep will catch up to you QUICK.

I sleep like a rock on cycle with tren, but this last cycle was during a very stressful time, so it didn't happen.
I ended up going to the doc and getting a script for ambien - worked like a charm.

I have a fairly fragile sleep cycle while not on anything, so having one bad night sleep follows me for nearly a week.

[DJM]

i'm southern Ontario just past London, maybe 9-10 hours from you, get the lafleur's family size ;)
did one a year ago, family size im talking, i made it bout 75% through.......brutal....when i was younger i think i did it once......the 2-3 burgers slowed me for sure.......lately i grab their double cheese plain

[JM1000]

Lol we would hit the family size after ball practice on a weekly basis when i was in high school.. Ahh the good ol days :P

[olddawg]

nevr thought about it back when I went there, I ate there a couple of times when I was in the music business, there would be a convention in montreal I'd fly in to attend but if I go back I will take pics lol. I do remember going to a Chinese restaurant in this area with a buddy and ordering a dinner for 4. We could polish it off all but the rice

[Jelisej]

so weak again today during cardio, but I fought through 45 min of it. I really think this might be more sleep related as I sleep like shit. I should track my sleeps and how I feel throughout the day for the future

I think sleep is most likely to be related to adrenals, could be your noradrenaline/norepinephrine is too high which results in overexcited CNS, in which case your sleep would be very shallow
Or it could be simply too low cortisol- in which case you would probably wake up much earlier because of transient hypoglicemia, but with low cortisol you would be sleepy all day- so most likely is norepinephrine (adrenalins) trying to fill the gap, which helps temporary to do your daily tasks but delays recovery of your adrenals and other hormones.

[olddawg]

I've always, my entire life been able to fall asleep within 1-2 minutes or quicker. But up until about 1-2 am, I get up every 30min to an hour with hunger signals, sometimes I'll gain consciousness and sometimes not, but overstimulated sounds right. I'll eat and eat, uncontrollably after I fall asleep lol, it's good for bulking. I try to plan this into my diet by not eating any carbs all day as i'll eat some once I fall asleep. Also try to put out things right at the edge of the fridge so it's healthy and easy to grab. It's been this way since way before puberty

how would you lower the adrenals ? maybe this is why i'm edgy some (much) of the time

[Jelisej]

I'm bit lazy for typing right now, so I'll post some links:

High Norepinephrine Symptoms | LIVESTRONG.COM (http://www.livestrong.com/article/138774-high-norepinephrine-symptoms/)
How can I reduce norepinephrine - Supplements - LONGECITY (http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/30450-how-can-i-reduce-norepinephrine/)

This is post by Dr Mariano:
Dopamine and norepinephrine are signals given out by different groups of cells in the nervous system. Norepinephrine is made from Dopamine. Dopamine released from norepinephrine-releasing cells is primarily leakage in the production line for creating norepinephrine.

Dopamine and Norepinephrine each have multiple functions, some of which overlap and may oppose each other. For example, norepinephrine promotes alertness. But too much dopamine can make one very sleepy. Dopamine promotes attention. But it has to work in conjunction with norepinephrine in allowing a person to be alert and attentive. Dopamine helps reduce norepinephrine signaling. Producing norepinephrine may lead to a reduction in dopamine production since continuing dopamine signaling may be counterproductive to the production of norepinephrine. Dopamine is one of the primary signals, if not the primary signal, for libido. But it needs to work with norepinephrine so one can get excitement from sex. Norepinephrine is the signal that triggers the orgasm. Excessive norepinephrine can reduce libido. This may occur through multiple signaling pathways. For example, dopamine production can be reduced. Immune system signaling may be increased - triggering defensive behavioral programs which turn off libido. Thus, even if dopamine signaling is sufficient, if the immune system shuts down libido, one won't have it.

The actual question to ask is "Why is norepinephrine high?" There are many reasons it may be high. One of the primary ones is that there is something wrong in the body - such as an infection or other stress. The immune system, in this case, may trigger higher norepinephrine production to signal the rest of the body that there is a serious problem to address. Norepinephrine is the signal for distress or something going wrong. A second reason is that norepinephrine is also a signal for generating energy. If there is a deficit in energy production from the other signaling and metabolic pathways, then an increase in norepinephrine may be necessary to compensate for the deficit in energy production. Etc. Etc.

Why may dopamine be low? There are numerous reasons. One can have a biological predisposition for low dopamine production (e.g. those at risk for Parkinson's disease). Norepinephrine signaling may be high. Immune system pro-inflammatory cytokine signaling may be high. Thyroid signaling may be suboptimal. Adrenal signaling may be suppressed. Testosterone signaling may be low. Estradiol signaling may be low. Metabolically, there may be deficits in Vitamin D and iron, which impairs dopamine production. Etc. etc.

A "high" usually means increasing dopamine and norepinephrine in tandem to produce an elevated mood.

Bupropion (Wellbutrin), particularly at high doses, tends to primarily raise norepinephrine, not dopamine.

Dopamine agonists are an option for some for increasing libido if the optimization of other signaling systems does not work sufficiently. It doesn't work fully well in most, though it some it works very well. Without norepinephrine this usually doesn't lead to a high. Abnormal muscle movements, heart valvular disease, drop attacks of sleep, etc. are some of the concerns with long-term use.
__________________
Romeo B. Mariano, MD, physician, psychiatrist

[olddawg]

so basically what you are saying is, suck it up buttercup lmao, could be any combination of 8 million things. I'm sure it's all interrelated, my early ejaculation, sleep issues, fatigue, etc.... along with my thyroid, .... I'm just too old to be interested that much in the science to learn it all and work on a fix. It's not that big of a deal as I've learned to live with it for almost 50 years now, and the nearest endo is over an hour away. thanks for the posts jj

[Jelisej]

I did not mention any buttercups, I think.
Your pushing yourself hard, whuch is taxing all your body including your adrenals and then stimulants on top... Plus other medication/aas.
You're doing fine considering all.
I have to admire your dedication, good luck to you bro'!

[olddawg]

today's ab shot, it's coming along, some days I can only do 1 cardio session instead of 2
739

[Jelisej]

Sounds like Captain Iron is little bit out of steam, but still doing fine.
Ippy would probably say that his abs are more definied but of course that would be in same category with Stephen Kings "The Langoliers".

Ironically, just had pop-up " Chinese scientists found easy way to get a six pack" it even offers money-back guarantee, brilliant...

[olddawg]

lol, I was made for bulking not cutting. it's a mental battle, every step but i'm winning. I think 6-9 more lbs and i'll be happy



Sounds like Captain Iron is little bit out of steam, but still doing fine.
Ippy would probably say that his abs are more definied but of course that would be in same category with Stephen Kings "The Langoliers".

Ironically, just had pop-up " Chinese scientists found easy way to get a six pack" it even offers money-back guarantee, brilliant...

[burlyman30]

Might want to find out what those Chinese scientists know, OD. Just sayin...

[Bucks]

lol, I was made for bulking not cutting. it's a mental battle, every step but i'm winning. I think 6-9 more lbs and i'll be happy

I feel the same way OD. 20 years ago cutting was just changing the diet around and now it's work,work,work, and chemicals. LOL

Those AB implants are looking cheaper and cheaper each summer LOL.

[olddawg]

i'd totally do the implants if they worked!

[burlyman30]

i'd totally do the implants if they worked!

Just get out the permanent marker and draw the lines. Much cheaper.

[olddawg]

I had a tshirt with some cut abs on it, wife wouldn't let me wear it:(