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View Full Version : Eric Potratz.... new company, new product!



burlyman30
06-07-2013, 05:36 PM
Hey guys, I spoke with Eric today and asked if it would be ok if I gave you guys a little teaser. :D

This is a pre-, pre- announcement and you guys are hearing the news FIRST.

I cannot give a lot of details, but I'll tell you what I can...

Eric will be launching a single product to start with and it will be palm-fruit based. It will be similar to the Toco-8 product that Primordial customers enjoyed. He is currently doing photo and video shoots for the product promotion, and expects to launch in August.

Eric is not starting up Primordial Performance again to launch this product. He has partnered up with one of the original Primordial partners/investors in order to make all this happen.

I talked with him about doing some sort of product Q and A here at SS and will work toward that as the launch gets closer.

Thanks for your interest. I will bring more to the thread as I know more and am more free to speak on the details.

milehighguy
06-07-2013, 05:38 PM
Interesting....
I'm sure all of us will be waiting to hear more
Thx for the teaser

Scope75
06-07-2013, 05:41 PM
Good to hear...

xxiv
06-07-2013, 05:59 PM
goodie goodie gumdrops

Rulk
06-07-2013, 08:39 PM
Right on, this news made my day. Go Eric!

O_RYAN_007
06-07-2013, 09:15 PM
SaWeet!!!

Cobalt
06-07-2013, 09:16 PM
It begins!

Grape Ape
06-07-2013, 09:49 PM
Good for Eric. Not surprising though.

machdaddy
06-07-2013, 10:10 PM
Even the feds can't keep a good man down.

Jack O'Neill
06-07-2013, 11:31 PM
Even the feds can't keep a good man down.

+1

Good news! Andro products may be back.... :)

burlyman30
06-07-2013, 11:41 PM
+1

Good news! Andro products may be back.... :)

Not through Eric directly, but maybe indirectly. Sperwer is in talks with Eric currently regarding the possibility of bringing back many of the PP favorites through a new company.

saludable24
06-08-2013, 01:18 AM
Awesome news! I still have about a 20+ month supply of Toco-8, but I will be looking forward to Eric having much success in his endeavors, both direct and indirect.

SoCal-Nutrition
06-08-2013, 03:05 AM
this is exciting! looking forward to see what they'll bring to the market

olddawg
06-08-2013, 06:34 AM
Nice to see him bounce back so quickly. He has gained enough experience now to really make this business/market work for him. What he went (don't know if it's over) through was the business school of hard knocks, doing so he now has all of the answers for huge success in the future should he choose to put it all together.

manning
06-11-2013, 10:29 AM
Nice!

louvalle1
06-11-2013, 10:53 AM
Can't keep a good man down, the american dream lives on, good to hear.

Broly
07-23-2013, 09:47 PM
Can't wait!!!!

burlyman30
07-23-2013, 10:03 PM
Talked with Eric a few days ago. Final stages, working bugs out of website, etc.

Rulk
07-23-2013, 10:12 PM
You had me at hello.

burlyman30
07-23-2013, 11:21 PM
Eric would welcome some help from some of you and your ladies if you are willing. I don't have all the details, but he needs people to run through the site, make a purchase (product not shipping yet), and then they will do a refund on your card after the fact. He asked for some ladies to help, too, so I am guessing that he has some questionaires on the site.

If you are willing to help, PM me your email address and I will get that to him. He will contact the testing group with more details.

Thanks.

Rulk
07-24-2013, 12:27 AM
Pm sent.

Jack O'Neill
07-24-2013, 12:28 AM
Pm sent.

Me too :)

xxiv
07-24-2013, 04:49 PM
Me too :)

me three

pman42
07-24-2013, 05:13 PM
FUCKIN A I am so excited

burlyman30
07-24-2013, 06:00 PM
Thanks for all of you who PM'd me to help out. At this time we probably have sufficient numbers to help, but I will let you know if that changes.

burlyman30
08-01-2013, 06:17 PM
So I happened to be up in Portland last night for another reason, but got a hold of Eric while I was up there. We met up and talked shop a bit. And I had a chance to meet the model they hired for the photo and video shoots (she's hot).

They are in the process of either retesting an existing product batch, or testing another batch. I am not clear on which of the two it is. The good news is that there is product being tested because once it passes inspection, the bottling process can commence.

Just thought you'd like an update.

Advice is for entertainment value only and is free, so if you aren't satisfied, there are no refunds.

Sperwer
08-01-2013, 06:40 PM
And the product or sort of product is....?

burlyman30
08-01-2013, 07:48 PM
And the product or sort of product is....?

Mentioned in the first post of this thread without giving a lot of details.... single palm fruit based product, for now.

Advice is for entertainment value only and is free, so if you aren't satisfied, there are no refunds.

O_RYAN_007
08-01-2013, 07:53 PM
And the product or sort of product is....?

And when are you coming out with AHV1 Mr??!!

Sperwer
08-01-2013, 09:04 PM
Touche! Company(s) being incorporated as we type. Later this year, though, uncertain what version of AH (or a diff formulation) will be offered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

weekend
08-01-2013, 09:33 PM
^id be stoked on any formulation

milehighguy
08-01-2013, 09:36 PM
Guessing this is some PCT type supplement...only because his TRS stack was pretty damn good

PolimarT
08-02-2013, 01:20 AM
This is great!, I really admire Eric, he is amazing and extremely dedicated, i will always be a loyal customer of any company that he is part of, he will have all my support! :-)

ALIEN
08-06-2013, 12:18 AM
This is great to hear.
Any updates?

burlyman30
08-06-2013, 12:24 AM
This is great to hear.
Any updates?

Not since my update 4 days ago.

ALIEN
08-06-2013, 12:36 AM
Not since my update 4 days ago.

Lol, sorry I didn't realize that was only 4 days ago

ireland
08-06-2013, 01:09 PM
fair play to the man for picking himself up and having another go at it. the business world is unforgiving at best and i admire anyone who can make it in it ( i retired at 36 lol ) so self praise aside , i say go for it ....just watch your marketing this time..pp had some great products but by the end its range was spread pretty thin and to my eye somewhat "flabby" .....trim the excess products , concentrate on known winners and market the shit clean out of them lol. the man has a loyal following due to his tried and tested product range and that's deserved....will watch with a professional interest .
in case i seem a bit harsh here let me clarify....any company which produces a product which is accepted in its field as a market leader, and yet fails to maximize the financial benefit of this product has failed to deliver. no one does this for the heck of it, KPI's must be hit and if not questions asked and lessons learnt.
A GOAL WITHOUT A PLAN IS JUST A WISH.

Cdsnuts
09-22-2013, 03:11 PM
Just found this thread. It made my day.

a_obnoxious
09-25-2013, 03:48 PM
Found it.

Mod Edit: Website address deleted upon Eric's request. He wants everything perfect before he launches.

milehighguy
09-25-2013, 05:49 PM
Interesting...not what I expected

Jack O'Neill
09-26-2013, 05:58 AM
Missed the link :)

mahatma
09-26-2013, 06:04 AM
866

Scope75
09-26-2013, 06:31 AM
Missed the link :)

You didn't miss much.
It was just info/marketing of the Palm Fruit product.

Jack O'Neill
09-26-2013, 06:39 AM
Eric passed from Grapefruit to Palm fruit for his new products?

Freepressright
09-26-2013, 08:22 AM
Palm fruit was always used as the source of tocotrienols in the Primordial Performance Toco-8 supplement.

Jack O'Neill
09-26-2013, 08:28 AM
Toco8. Yes indeed

hardestgainer
10-20-2013, 05:15 PM
Always in on anything Eric is putting out

burlyman30
11-25-2013, 04:51 PM
Just wanted to keep you guys posted...

There were some bugs that needed to be worked out and caused some delays, but sounds like that is taken care of. Eric told me today that the website testers will be sent an email in the next couple of days.

weekend
11-25-2013, 06:49 PM
WOOHOO!

Jack O'Neill
11-25-2013, 10:19 PM
Just wanted to keep you guys posted...

There were some bugs that needed to be worked out and caused some delays, but sounds like that is taken care of. Eric told me today that the website testers will be sent an email in the next couple of days.

Yes! :-)

nate3993
11-25-2013, 10:20 PM
Sweet. Been waiting for this

h2s
11-26-2013, 11:16 AM
Tested portions of the site. So far, very impressed. You guys will be a bit surprised, a bit of a change of direction, but same research behind the products and the website is set up to inform the customer rathan than just sell.

xxiv
11-26-2013, 03:07 PM
Tested portions of the site. So far, very impressed. You guys will be a bit surprised, a bit of a change of direction, but same research behind the products and the website is set up to inform the customer rathan than just sell.

x2 site is impressive but not overwhelming. Erics videos are really interesting.

therealest77
11-26-2013, 06:00 PM
Love the website

O_RYAN_007
11-26-2013, 07:31 PM
Very awesome website, very informative, and I JUST KNOW THIS IS GOING TO DO WELL FOR ERIC AND THE TEAM!!!!

Cdsnuts
11-26-2013, 07:49 PM
How am I missing the web address?

pitboss
11-26-2013, 10:54 PM
Where is this website? WHERE IS THIS WEBSITE?

Cobalt
11-26-2013, 11:01 PM
Stop trolling us guys, give us a link or knock it off :p

burlyman30
11-26-2013, 11:15 PM
Stop trolling us guys, give us a link or knock it off :p

Eric just gave me the OK to post this:

Palm Fruit - The Red Palm Oil Replacement (Http://WWW.botanicalcraft.com)

Check it out, guys. Give them some feedback, "Like" their FB page, and buy some of the new product.

If you want to give feedback but aren't on the original list of testers, PM me your email address and I will email over a link for a feedback form.

pitboss
11-26-2013, 11:50 PM
Palm Fruit - The Red Palm Oil Replacement (http://botanicalcraft.com/)

Eric is still so dreamy:p ....

Jack O'Neill
11-27-2013, 12:10 AM
Excellent website. I'd like to try its product but I will wait for several reviews

Cdsnuts
11-27-2013, 07:16 AM
Excellent website. I'd like to try its product but I will wait for several reviews

It's toco....

h2s
11-27-2013, 08:36 AM
It's toco....

Yeah Toco8 might have been one of the highest regarded products in primordial history.

Cdsnuts
11-27-2013, 01:16 PM
Yeah Toco8 might have been one of the highest regarded products in primordial history.

Really?! Personally I've never noticed anything out of the ordinary while taking it. But then again, I've only used PP stuff for PCT and any and ALL hormonal products. I know everything they did was beyond top notch from personal experience and from what I've heard from others. I just didn't know what if anything I should have noticed while on Toco. I never did get any hair regrowth from it.

Jack O'Neill
11-27-2013, 03:07 PM
It's toco....

Yes indeed. I still have a bottle of toco8 on my shelves ;-)

Is this really as potent as Eric says??? I thought toco8 was used to avoid hair loss during a cycle?

ExtraZeus
11-28-2013, 10:23 AM
Burly, do you think Eric will make other products in the future? Also, do you need to do anything special to get the second bottle free or is it automatic when you order one?

weekend
11-28-2013, 03:03 PM
All I can say is my hair comes in thick on a cycle with toco8. Definitely no loss lol

burlyman30
11-28-2013, 07:55 PM
Burly, do you think Eric will make other products in the future? Also, do you need to do anything special to get the second bottle free or is it automatic when you order one?

Too early to talk about other products yet, but Eric's pattern is to get something rolling and then use the profits to launch the next product.

Bottom line is, if you want more of his products in the future, help fund that by buying the product he does have available.

pman42
11-29-2013, 12:42 AM
on the palm fruit-- I have heard that normally palm plantations use "slash and burn" tactics, which includes killing native orangutans. hopefully this product is sourced ethically

Scope75
11-29-2013, 01:34 AM
on the palm fruit-- I have heard that normally palm plantations use "slash and burn" tactics, which includes killing native orangutans. hopefully this product is sourced ethically

About (http://botanicalcraft.com/about_us/)

Doesn't seem like that's how this product is harvested.

O.N.
11-29-2013, 09:04 AM
on the palm fruit-- I have heard that normally palm plantations use "slash and burn" tactics, which includes killing native orangutans. hopefully this product is sourced ethically

The tocotrienols/tocopherols are from carotech exactly the same that are in our product Wicked Supplements Tococaps. The farming area is 25 years old. Carotech is a member of the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO) organization since 2007. No animals are harmed in the production.

burlyman30
11-29-2013, 11:06 AM
Burly, do you think Eric will make other products in the future? Also, do you need to do anything special to get the second bottle free or is it automatic when you order one?

I misspoke earlier on the free bottle. At this time, the free bottle offer applies to those who were the original website testers.

If you received an email a few days ago with the website link and a feedback form, you are eligible. If this offer expands to everyone else, I will let you know.

Sorry for the confusion.

nate3993
11-29-2013, 04:56 PM
actually as for us testers, it says that once we buy a bottle, THEN we get a free one. that was it. at least that's what i understood

burlyman30
11-29-2013, 06:38 PM
actually as for us testers, it says that once we buy a bottle, THEN we get a free one. that was it. at least that's what i understood

Thanks for clarifying.

Right Hook
11-30-2013, 03:49 PM
Nice looking site.

Scope75
11-30-2013, 05:14 PM
Anyone else get an email from Eric today??

ryhigh
11-30-2013, 05:26 PM
Anyone else get an email from Eric today??

Yessssir

Cobalt
11-30-2013, 05:31 PM
Anyone else get an email from Eric today??

Yep, made me feel special :D

ryhigh
11-30-2013, 05:49 PM
Yep, made me feel special :D

Cause you are ;)

Derek
11-30-2013, 05:52 PM
Got my email, looking forward to trying this product. :)

burlyman30
11-30-2013, 05:57 PM
Heehawww.. pretty cool you guys get to be part of this launch. Yes Cobalt, you should feel very special. :D

xxiv
11-30-2013, 08:42 PM
Anyone else get an email from Eric today??

no email for me.

ryhigh
11-30-2013, 08:44 PM
no email for me.

You're still special in my book

ryhigh
11-30-2013, 09:14 PM
Heehawww.. pretty cool you guys get to be part of this launch. Yes Cobalt, you should feel very special. :D

Doesn't a donkey make that noise? Burly you are farrr from a jackass lol

ExtraZeus
11-30-2013, 09:44 PM
Damn, no e-mail love for me either. I'll still pick some up, I missed the taste of toco-8

burlyman30
11-30-2013, 09:57 PM
Doesn't a donkey make that noise? Burly you are farrr from a jackass lol

Lol. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

xxiv
11-30-2013, 10:22 PM
You're still special in my book

thanks, thats so sweet of you.

Sperwer
11-30-2013, 11:25 PM
Website looks very good. Despite the suggestion otherwise, product does not appear to be significantly any different, though, in terms of the core ingredients, than Toco 8. Given the taste claims, and the label, it looks like the only changes are primarily an increase in the amount of effectives and cosmetic, ie. the addition of emulsifiers and citric acid to improve taste and mixability. I'm still working through the inventory of Toco 8 that I got upon the demise of PP, but will be ordering this when the time is right.

Sperwer
12-01-2013, 12:01 AM
Doesn't a donkey make that noise? Burly you are farrr from a jackass lol

True that, but when I saw that heehaw I was half-expecting another Burly photo-spread, this time sporting his "Daisy Dukes", though. :rolleyes:

Cdsnuts
12-01-2013, 08:33 AM
Got mine.....too bad it was just for announcing this product.....blah.

Scope75
12-01-2013, 09:57 AM
Got mine.....too bad it was just for announcing this product.....blah.

Well lets hope this is just a start to what the future holds.
Would be real nice if Eric came out with the ultimate pct products that was mentioned before PP was raided.

Cdsnuts
12-01-2013, 10:04 AM
Well lets hope this is just a start to what the future holds.
Would be real nice if Eric came out with the ultimate pct products that was mentioned before PP was raided.

That would be great. The latest version of sustain gel was awesome. I would run the TRS + TCF1 + phyto test as a natty cycle all it's own. It never failed to impress me.

ryhigh
12-01-2013, 10:31 AM
I love SA I hope too see it or something even better

xxiv
12-01-2013, 02:03 PM
Got mine.....too bad it was just for announcing this product.....blah.

i got that email.
i am just about done with my toco caps, this came just in time.

O.N.
12-01-2013, 08:25 PM
i got that email.
i am just about done with my toco caps, this came just in time.

how did the tococaps go for you?

Jack O'Neill
12-01-2013, 10:06 PM
how did the tococaps go for you?

I'm interested to know too before ordering. Maybe other feedbacks from bros here?

milehighguy
12-02-2013, 09:37 AM
I'm interested to know too before ordering. Maybe other feedbacks from bros here?

I've had good results with tococaps. I drop two with dinner and noticed better sleep quality and more morning wood for sure. I would buy again.

Right Hook
12-02-2013, 10:10 AM
I would be surprised if he launched something like SA again. He said in the email that he didn't want to deal with NDI's, FDA, and lawyers, which pretty much eliminates anything really unique or new.

I would expect more food enriching nutrients like this product.

xxiv
12-02-2013, 04:38 PM
how did the tococaps go for you?

I liked them, Ive been rationing them out between my wife and I and I'm down to the last few.

I got my order from botanical craft, shipping was super fast. I won't try the product for another day or 2 so I can't comment on the product intself but the fact that it came with samples, a shaker cup, a little note and a freebie has me super amped and excited.

AndroMinded
12-03-2013, 11:34 AM
Just thought I'd say, Hi I'm new to the forum.
I cycled AndroHard v3 probably a year and a half ago and gained some serious density and muscle. It was a great run and got me extremely interested in PP. While cycling, I was checking out the knowledge and strong community on the PP Forums. Before I had a chance to run any PP product again, the company was pretty much over. Saw some people discussing moving to this forum, I'm a little late but I was getting things down on the blogging scene over at AM.

Looks like I found out more good news, Palm Fruit looks interesting. Goodluck to Eric and lets see what happens!

burlyman30
12-03-2013, 11:56 AM
Just thought I'd say, Hi I'm new to the forum.
I cycled AndroHard v3 probably a year and a half ago and gained some serious density and muscle. It was a great run and got me extremely interested in PP. While cycling, I was checking out the knowledge and strong community on the PP Forums. Before I had a chance to run any PP product again, the company was pretty much over. Saw some people discussing moving to this forum, I'm a little late but I was getting things down on the blogging scene over at AM.

Looks like I found out more good news, Palm Fruit looks interesting. Goodluck to Eric and lets see what happens!

Glad you found us. And FYI, some more good news for you: one of our members has purchased the rights to the PP formulas and is in the development stages.

AndroMinded
12-03-2013, 12:15 PM
Glad you found us. And FYI, some more good news for you: one of our members has purchased the rights to the PP formulas and is in the development stages.

It's like an early Christmas o.o

ryhigh
12-03-2013, 12:30 PM
Just thought I'd say, Hi I'm new to the forum.
I cycled AndroHard v3 probably a year and a half ago and gained some serious density and muscle. It was a great run and got me extremely interested in PP. While cycling, I was checking out the knowledge and strong community on the PP Forums. Before I had a chance to run any PP product again, the company was pretty much over. Saw some people discussing moving to this forum, I'm a little late but I was getting things down on the blogging scene over at AM.

Looks like I found out more good news, Palm Fruit looks interesting. Goodluck to Eric and lets see what happens!

Welcome to SS

Cdsnuts
12-03-2013, 12:38 PM
I liked them, Ive been rationing them out between my wife and I and I'm down to the last few.

I got my order from botanical craft, shipping was super fast. I won't try the product for another day or 2 so I can't comment on the product intself but the fact that it came with samples, a shaker cup, a little note and a freebie has me super amped and excited.

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly did you like about them? You noticed some type of a difference when taking them? Just curious because I never really felt anything off of toco......

xxiv
12-03-2013, 02:16 PM
If you don't mind me asking, what exactly did you like about them? You noticed some type of a difference when taking them? Just curious because I never really felt anything off of toco......

i don't feel a profound effect, it just seems like my skin is better and my eyes arn't so puffy. I am hoping it will help me keep my hair as long as possible.
The only supplement I actually feel is the b I take, it makes my ears burn.
My wife thinks they help her recover better.

AndroMinded
12-03-2013, 02:53 PM
Welcome to SS

Good to be here

Jack O'Neill
12-04-2013, 07:42 AM
Just thought I'd say, Hi I'm new to the forum.
I cycled AndroHard v3 probably a year and a half ago and gained some serious density and muscle. It was a great run and got me extremely interested in PP. While cycling, I was checking out the knowledge and strong community on the PP Forums. Before I had a chance to run any PP product again, the company was pretty much over. Saw some people discussing moving to this forum, I'm a little late but I was getting things down on the blogging scene over at AM.

Looks like I found out more good news, Palm Fruit looks interesting. Goodluck to Eric and lets see what happens!

Never too late ;-)
Welcome here AndroMinded

Haritec
12-08-2013, 01:19 PM
Study shows that heavy supplementation of Vitamin E during a cycle will reduce damage done to testicles and testicular shrinkage.
Vitamin E protects testes while taking steroids (http://www.ergo-log.com/vitaminecycle.html)

Bucks
12-08-2013, 01:36 PM
i don't feel a profound effect, it just seems like my skin is better and my eyes arn't so puffy. I am hoping it will help me keep my hair as long as possible.
The only supplement I actually feel is the b I take, it makes my ears burn.
My wife thinks they help her recover better.


Same here with the Toco. I notice better skin and less hair shedding after a shower when on cycle.

Also my nails seem to grow faster and are stronger as well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

lad2020
12-10-2013, 12:25 AM
What is the differences between Toco8 and the new stuff?

weekend
12-10-2013, 12:37 AM
it's just a slightly higher quality extract with more carotenoids.

O.N.
12-10-2013, 09:56 PM
it's just a slightly higher quality extract with more carotenoids.

I don't mean to put a dampener on this but to say it's a higher purity isn't exactly correct, it's actually exactly the same there has been no added carotenoids they are naturally occurring in the tocopowder itself all that has happened is the active amount has been found and declared on the label as 9700IU Vitamin A.
The additional things tocopowder didn't have is the coconut palm nectar for sweetness flavoring, citric acid as a preservative and slight flavoring along with the other fillers use to make a full scoop, and agents to help mix ability.

Tocopowder itself from carotech is 20% purity eg take 100g and you get 20g of mixed tocotrienols/tocopherols.

Palm fruit is 1450mg per serve which totals 154mg of mixed tocotrienols/tocopherols which totals 10.621% so it has the additional ingredients making up the scoop size.

Normally in straight tocopowder 154mg would be obtained in only 770mg.

Carotenoids found in tocopowder
a-carotene
ß-carotene
y-carotene
Lycopene

they have the vitamin A activity.

If you compare the labels you will see this is a typical make up from carotech specs of tocomax 20%

Specification
TOTAL TOCOTRIENOLS/TOCOPHEROLS 200mg/g (20%) Minimum

Vitamers / Range / Typical Value *
d-Alpha-Tocotrienol / 45 – 70 mg/g / 50 mg/g
d-Beta-Tocotrienol / NLT 5 mg/g / 9 mg/g
d-Gamma-Tocotrienol / 70 – 95 mg/g / 76 mg/g
d-Delta-Tocotrienol / 25 – 50 mg/g / 28 mg/g
Total d-Mixed Tocotrienol / 152 mg/g Minimum / 163 mg/g
d-Alpha-Tocopherol / 35 – 60 mg/g / 44 mg/g
Total d-Mixed Tocopherol / 40 mg/g Minimum / 45 mg/g
TOTAL TOCOTRIENOLS/TOCOPHEROLS / 200 mg/g (20%) Minimum / 208 mg/g

PLANT SQUALENE / 20 mg/g Minimum / 35 mg/g
PHYTOSTEROL COMPLEX / 10 mg/g Minimum / 15 mg/g
MIXED CAROTENOIDS COMPLEX / 200 mcg/g

* Typical Value refers to the average analytical results accumulated over the past years
ISOMERIC FORMS - Approximately 22% typical tocopherols and 78% tocotrienols

If you compare these values found above you will see it is identical.

spec sheet here: tocomax-20-spec_0006_02-new-.pdf (http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/attachments/online-nutrition/2616d1386741264-even-more-reason-to-take-tococaps-over-toco8-tocomax-20-spec_0006_02-new-.pdf)

Sperwer
12-10-2013, 10:05 PM
Actually, it is possible to get greater concentrations from Carotech - 30% in the Tocomax version of Tocomin powder, 50% in the oil suspension product ( which has other problems though in terms of keeping it fresh). In my discussions with their people i've also been given to understand that even greater concentrations may soon be available in powdered form.

O.N.
12-11-2013, 12:03 AM
Actually, it is possible to get greater concentrations from Carotech - 30% in the Tocomax version of Tocomin powder, 50% in the oil suspension product ( which has other problems though in terms of keeping it fresh). In my discussions with their people i've also been given to understand that even greater concentrations may soon be available in powdered form.

I think you maybe confused about what was said. Yes you can get 20% and 30% in powder the 50% is in oil but actually doesn't absorb as well.

To give you an idea which shows you this is a 20% version used on this product.

TOTAL TOCOTRIENOLS/TOCOPHEROLS 200mg/g (20%) Minimum
will yield on average d-Alpha-Tocotrienol 45 – 70 mg/g with the typical amount found being 50 mg/g
d-Alpha-Tocotrienol at 50mg = 25% of the 200mg

Palm fruit contains 154mg TOCOTRIENOLS/TOCOPHEROLS
d-Alpha-Tocotrienol is 36mg

Of the 154mg 25% = 38.5mg

So this is a 20% form from carotech nothing additional has been added in terms of carotenoids or TOCOTRIENOLS/TOCOPHEROLS to claim it is of higher purity isn't correct and botanical craft have not done that they have simply labeled the vitamin A content.......other than Erics email which said it had a higher content...however it doesn't.

burlyman30
12-11-2013, 12:19 AM
O.N., I'm just stopping in to say thanks for being part of this discussion without negative comments toward a competitive product/seller. Earlier you did a cost per serving analysis comparison between brands which was valuable information.

Sperwer
12-11-2013, 12:23 AM
I think you maybe confused about what was said. Yes you can get 20% and 30% in powder the 50% is in oil but actually doesn't absorb as well.

To give you an idea which shows you this is a 20% version used on this product.

TOTAL TOCOTRIENOLS/TOCOPHEROLS 200mg/g (20%) Minimum
will yield on average d-Alpha-Tocotrienol 45 – 70 mg/g with the typical amount found being 50 mg/g
d-Alpha-Tocotrienol at 50mg = 25% of the 200mg

Palm fruit contains 154mg TOCOTRIENOLS/TOCOPHEROLS
d-Alpha-Tocotrienol is 36mg

Of the 154mg 25% = 38.5mg

So this is a 20% form from carotech nothing additional has been added in terms of carotenoids or TOCOTRIENOLS/TOCOPHEROLS to claim it is of higher purity isn't correct and botanical craft have not done that they have simply labeled the vitamin A content.......other than Erics email which said it had a higher content...however it doesn't.

No, i got what you were saying. Just meant to point out that higher concentrations are available supply side, not claim that was the case with Palm Fruit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

O.N.
12-11-2013, 12:34 AM
O.N., I'm just stopping in to say thanks for being part of this discussion without negative comments toward a competitive product/seller. Earlier you did a cost per serving analysis comparison between brands which was valuable information.

Yeah it's all good, i know both our products are the same 1 being in capsule and 1 being in a drinkable format and our tococaps working out to be more cost effective, personally i like what they have done, i have only seen the images of the powder they are using but from the additional ingredients used to sweeten it's taste etc will make it much more consumable compared to straight tocopowder.

I wouldn't talk down about their product it's good, it's going to help make people healthier.

I just dont think people should be misinformed thinking it's been amped up or higher potency.


No, i got what you were saying. Just meant to point out that higher concentrations are available supply side, not claim that was the case with Palm Fruit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Oh ok cool no prob thought you were thinking it was of higher purity when it's still the same content just now showing the vitamin A content.

mlouca
04-27-2015, 11:59 PM
Yeah it's all good, i know both our products are the same 1 being in capsule and 1 being in a drinkable format and our tococaps working out to be more cost effective, personally i like what they have done, i have only seen the images of the powder they are using but from the additional ingredients used to sweeten it's taste etc will make it much more consumable compared to straight tocopowder.

I wouldn't talk down about their product it's good, it's going to help make people healthier.

I just dont think people should be misinformed thinking it's been amped up or higher potency.

Oh ok cool no prob thought you were thinking it was of higher purity when it's still the same content just now showing the vitamin A content.




hey guys i know this is me opening up an almost 2 year old thread, but i was wondering if there was anyway I can get a direct email or contact for eric. I would love to market his product(s). I was a huge fan of majority of PPs products until they got shut down. I am the co-founder of a website and I am very confident with the tools my team and I have in house we can make some serious impact on the any products he feels the need to mass produce. It always feels good when you assist individuals who have a passion for what they sell. Thanks guys!

tallstraw
04-28-2015, 12:40 AM
Lol looks like a giant shill for your company..a simple Google search would yield the results you want.

BBG
04-28-2015, 12:55 AM
Edited out the website. I don't think anyone is going to give you Eric's phone # or email. I don't even think anyone else has either of them aside from myself and H2S. Maybe the email.

hossam
04-28-2015, 01:00 AM
Edited out the website. I don't think anyone is going to give you Eric's phone # or email. I don't even think anyone else has either of them aside from myself and H2S. Maybe the email.

i have it as well :)

Eric Potratz
05-28-2015, 09:53 PM
I don't mean to put a dampener on this but to say it's a higher purity isn't exactly correct, it's actually exactly the same there has been no added carotenoids they are naturally occurring in the tocopowder itself all that has happened is the active amount has been found and declared on the label as 9700IU Vitamin A.[/url]

Funny, I just got to this 1.5 year old post on my “to-do” list. Better late than never!

O.N., our Palm Fruit uses a unique extract that is exclusive to Botanical Craft, and I know for a fact it is not the same as your Tococaps product. Palm Fruit has about 10 mg/serving of carotenoids (http://botanicalcraft.com/content/PDFs/carotenoids_analysis_results_post_production_covan ce.pdf), while it looks like the Tococaps has about 0.2 mg/serving. Thats about 50 times more carotenoids per serving. FYI, Palm Fruit has the highest dose of tocotrienols and carotenoids per serving of any product on the market, hence the higher than average price.

O.N.
05-28-2015, 10:19 PM
Funny, I just got to this 1.5 year old post on my “to-do” list. Better late than never!

O.N., our Palm Fruit uses a unique extract that is exclusive to Botanical Craft, and I know for a fact it is not the same as your Tococaps product. Palm Fruit has about 10 mg/serving of carotenoids (http://botanicalcraft.com/content/PDFs/carotenoids_analysis_results_post_production_covan ce.pdf), while it looks like the Tococaps has about 0.2 mg/serving. Thats about 50 times more carotenoids per serving. FYI, Palm Fruit has the highest dose of tocotrienols and carotenoids per serving of any product on the market, hence the higher than average price.

Exclusive to Botanical Craft....LOL did you change the way mother nature creates palm fruit.

Even your PDF says exactly what I have said you buy it from carotech, you've had it analyzed by Covance and started to declare the Vitamin A from Carotenes.....you even stated this on your label

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y428/HankAlot/Random/Capture_zps78kysbq7.jpg

The extract used is exactly the same, as for the product having the highest dose per serving yes it does...per serve but not per container of per dollar.
4312mg palm fruit or TocoCaps 6500mg which is actually 7120mg per container with our new contractor. Either way 6500 or 7120 or even 7000mg work it off that.

You are playing on marketing spin claiming you have added something to the product when it naturally occurs in the extract itself....your product doesn't have 43x more carotenoids than your original toco8 per gram and you haven't beefed up the product.





Copied from email:

As you may know I launched Palm Fruit about 14 months ago under the new company Botanical Craft.

People have asked, "Why is Palm Fruit more expensive than the old Toco-8 from Primordial?" There are a couple reasons for this:
1. New FDA regulations require the active ingredients to exceed label claims throughout the product's 2-year shelf-life. This means Palm Fruit is almost 20% more potent than Toco-8 to buffer against natural variation and loss of potency over time.
2. Palm Fruit contains a new patented extract of tocotrienols + carotenoids, delivering over 35 naturally occurring vitamers and phytonutrients. This means Palm Fruit has 43x more carotenoids than Toco-8 and other tocotrienol products on the market.
Palm Fruit is far superior to Toco-8 and provides greater benefits for hair growth, skin protection from sunlight, and cardiovascular health.

Recently, we obtained lower costs on Palm Fruit by ramping up production for 2015. To celebrate, I’ve put together an exclusive offer for previous Primordial customers so you can save 50% and get Palm Fruit for only $24.99 on the monthly autoship plan:
Palm Fruit Jar


Try not to be duped so quickly I previously pointed this out before and I'll point it out again.

1. The FDA doesn't require you to exceed label claims....simply meet label claims...good manufacturers will exceed 1-5% to ensure dosage is correct from loss/spillage etc. (If safe to do so)
1.1 Palm fruit contains the same 20% extract that toco8 uses it just isn't watered down with tapicoa flour...remember toco8 it was 60 serves originally and was nice and bright orange then it was 30 serves and lighter in color with the flour added.....so Yeah if you compare the water down version of toco8 (which was the final version Pp used) to palm fruit yeah palm fruit looks way better in that lighting.

See here:

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16265&d=1344435626

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16266&d=1344435637

2. Palm Fruit does not have 43x more carotenoids than Toco-8...Eric has simply started declaring the naturally found Vitamins and carotenoids on the label.....when we get new labels printed we too will be making the same claim to keep up with the spin.....however we wont be selling it as spin...we will make a statement that we are now showing all naturally occurring nutrients.


Lastly when botanical crafty ran out of stock a few months back...this was the exact time we were having supply issues......wonder why?
I'll tell you the CEO of Carotech lives partly in Maylasia and Australia so we chat....we know the purchase qty and purities that are being used they are exactly the same as ours. And as to the reason we almost ran out of stock and botanical actually did run out of stock was because of a cyclone that took out many coconut trees which were being used for bio diesel so instead the industries switched to using toco bio diesel.


I'll actually show you how to work this out from the nutritional panels that it is the same extract/supplier:


Break down
TocoCaps 130mg
Palm Fruit BC 154mg
% versus extract TocoCaps
% versus extract Palm Fruit BC


d-alpha-tocotrienol
30mg
36mg
23.07%
23.37%


d-beta-tocotrienol
4mg
4mg
3.07%
2.59%


d-gamma-tocotrienol
52mg
61mg
40%
39.61%


d-delta-tocotrienol
14mg
16mg
10.67%
10.38%


d-alpha-tocopherols
30mg
36mg
23.07%
23.37%



As for the added carotenoids it actually states on the palm fruit label"Vitamin A 9700IU 194% (as carotenoids from palm fruit extract)"
^ This proves they are not added they are naturally occurring in the extract and a simple google search also turns up typical values of Vitamin A found in palm fruit extracts.

Here is carotech's spec sheet if you wish to compare yourself: tocomax-20-spec.pdf (http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/attachments/online-nutrition/3147d1431610135-amazing-tococaps-review-tocomax-20-spec_0006_02-new-3.pdf) This actually shows you that 20% is the minimum extract percentage not the actual...it also shows you the typical percentage found. (additionally it also shows you typical percentages for each vitamin this is why the above label figures can vary depending on where you wish to display purity on your label eg d-Alpha-Tocotrienol range is 45 – 70 mg/g typical is 50 mg/g)




I think getting behind Eric with the FDA issues is a good thing...he is after all innocent I am for this not against it.
But buying into the marketing spin and hype is something you need to make an informed choice for yourself.....do your own research...please don't take my word for it....LOOK INTO IT i want you to find out if I'm telling the truth or lying.

Did toco8 not work at growing back your hair and having positive health effects?
Is Palm fruit now 43x better at doing the same thing?

Or are the results from the natural unadulterated extract all you need....case in point: http://www.swolesource.com/forum/wicked-supplements/1574-amazing-tococaps-review-2.html#post38297 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/wicked-supplements/1574-amazing-tococaps-review-2.html#post38297)





Post explaining costs/savings/mg's from here: swolesource.com/forum/wicked-supplements/642-tococaps.html#post28033 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/wicked-supplements/642-tococaps.html#post28033)


Thanks for the review, regarding the price here is a simple comparison for you as it is more cost effective:

Toco8 was 30 servings of 153mg Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols per serve total toco's per container= 4590mg $29.95
Cost per day $0.99

Soon to be released product "palm fruit extract" is 1 scoop 28 servings 154mg Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols per serve total amount of toco's= 4312mg $49.99
Cost per day $1.78

Wicked Supplements TocoCaps is 2 capsules 130mg Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols per serve total amount of toco's per container= 6500mg $49.95 AUD - works out even cheaper in USD
Cost per day $0.99 AUD - works out even cheaper in USD

Based off the 2 currently available products palm fruit and TocoCaps you get the following:
28 days with palm fruit / 50 days with TocoCaps (an additional 22 days)
powder in drink etc / the convenience of capsules
Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols per container 4312mg palm fruit / TocoCaps 6500mg

In addition Toco8 in it's final months was watered down with tapicoa flour as it use to be 60 servings before it became 30. TocoCaps has and never will change in quality and there is zero need to water the product down.

I understand many of you are very loyal Pp followers and this may seem demeaning to toco8 or palm fruit extract but the above post was regarding the price I have simply laid out the information available on the net to all of you regarding servings, mg's and price.

Beyond this as pointed out previously since we switched to a new contractor our product has increased from 630mg to 712mg per serve...once new labels are printed this will be reflected this provides you with a total of 7120mg per container of tocotrienols/tocopherols But since we are not in the spin game our labels will be stated with a built in overage. You are also welcome to weigh your capsules to confirm this.





You have to remember you are not buying the servings....that was simply part of the comparison. (product composition of vitamins are the same...it's the same supplier this is what is pointed out above)

It's like filling your car up with cheap fuel versus premium you are buying Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols per container 4312mg palm fruit or TocoCaps 6500mg which is actually 7120mg per container with our new contractor. Either way 6500 or 7120 or even 7000mg work it off that.

As for the amounts of Tocotrienols/Tocopherols they are the same I have pointed this out for you, it is up to the supplement company where they declare the value at as it is variable due to summer/winter seasons , crop age, fruit size etc at the plantation. eg d-Alpha-Tocotrienol range is 45 – 70 mg/g typical is 50 mg/g) So we could label it as 50mg or even 60-65mg or if we really wanted to 70mg.....as you see in the table it is the same and coming from the same supplier.


I'll lay our your raw Tocotrienols/Tocopherols cost here for you per 1000mg
botanical craft 4312mg per container $49.99 cost per 1000mg = $11.59
TocoCaps 7120mg per container $49.95 AUD cost per 1000mg = $7.01 (actual mg per container)
TocoCaps 6500mg per container $49.95 AUD cost per 1000mg = $7.68

$7.01 AUD currently = $5.65 USD

Discounts available:
SoCal 10% product cost $44.95 USD cost per 1000mg $6.31 USD
Online Nutrition 10% product cost $44.95 AUD cost per 1000mg $6.31 USD
or 15% with orders over $150 product cost $42.45 AUD cost per 1000mg $5.96 AUD


You want me to blow his price out of the water no problem
Sale is now re-activated buy 3 get 1 free use discount code WICKED15 to get 15% off
This now works out to be including shipping costs $5.10 AUD per 1000mg.....AUD!!! so you are about 20% less than this once converted. $4.11 USD (this is including the shipping cost from here to you)

Sale for buy 3 get 1 free ends the end of the month



-----------------------------------
Sorry should have also listed Botanicals newly discounted costs/saving
botanical craft 4312mg per container $24.99 cost per 1000mg = $5.79


If you compare apples for apples
botanical craft 4312mg per container $24.99
and then work out our sale price for 4312mg worth within the product $5.10 AUD divided by 1000mg x 4312mg = $21.99 AUD delivered to your door

Or USD is $4.11 USD divided by 1000mg x 4312mg = $17.72 USD delivered to your door


Like i said it works out much better and our product is unadulterated just the natural extract.

If he wants to continue the games and marketing spin we can go all day it doesn't cost that much when you buy 200kg conatiners versus the 1-10kg packs he buys.

O.N.
05-28-2015, 11:00 PM
www.coconutresearchcenter.org/article%20red%20palm%20oil.htm (http://www.coconutresearchcenter.org/article%20red%20palm%20oil.htm)


Red palm oil provides a perfect solution. It supplies the needed fat and vitamin A precursors. Red palm oil is the richest dietary source of provitamin A carotenes (beta-carotene and alpha-carotene). It has 15 times more provitamin A carotenes than carrots and 300 times more than tomatoes. This has made it a valued resource in the treatment of vitamin A deficiency. Just one teaspoon a day of red palm oil supplies children with the daily recommend amount of vitamin A. Nursing mothers are encouraged to supplement their diet with palm oil to enrich their milk with the vitamin. Studies show that adding red palm oil into the diet can double or triple the amount of vitamin A in mother's milk.

The children are not only getting the vitamin A they need but other important nutrients as well. Red palm oil is a virtual powerhouse of nutrition. It contains by far, more nutrients than any other dietary oil. In addition to beta-carotene, alpha-carotene, and lycopene it contains at least 20 other carotenes along with vitamin E, vitamin K, CoQ10, squalene, phytosterols, flavonoids, phenolic acids, and glycolipids. Palm oil is one of the richest natural sources of vitamin E. In addition to ordinary vitamin E, it also contains the highest amount of a super potent form of vitamin E known as tocotrienol. There are four tocotrienols. Palm oil contains all of them. These tocotrienols have up to 60 times the antioxidant activity of ordinary vitamin E. The combination of vitamin E, tocotrienols, carotenes, and other antioxidants makes palm oil a super antioxidant food.

Red palm oil is loaded with so many nutrients and antioxidants it's like a natural dietary supplement. In fact, it is currently being encapsulated and sold as a vitamin supplement. The oil is also available in bottles like other vegetable oils for kitchen use.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14506003 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14506003)


There is general consensus that food-based approaches are viable and sustainable options for addressing vitamin A deficiency in populations. One such example is the fortification of food which, if properly monitored, could make a significant contribution towards improving the vitamin A status of populations throughout the world. Red palm fruit oil (RPO) with its high content of natural carotenoids, lends itself exceptionally well to this purpose at both household and commercial level. Results are now available from several feeding trials incorporating RPO into diets at household level or into commercially manufactured products. RPO in the maternal diet was shown to improve the vitamin A status of lactating mothers and their infants. Consumption of RPO incorporated in a sweet snack or biscuits significantly improved plasma retinol concentrations in children with subclinical vitamin A deficiency. There is evidence that if only 35-50% of the recommended daily intake for vitamin A were to be provided by RPO, it may be sufficient to prevent vitamin A deficiency (hypovitaminosis A). Red palm oil has a highly bioconvertible form of alpha- and beta-carotene, a long shelf life, and a higher cost/benefit ratio when compared to other approaches such as high-dose-vitamin A supplements and fortification of foods with retinyl ester fortificants. Consumption of RPO is safe and cannot produce hypervitaminosis A. Considering all the current information about RPO, the initiation of food-based interventions involving its use in developing countries with an endemic vitamin A deficiency problem, appears to be a logical choice.

Eric Potratz
05-28-2015, 11:14 PM
Exclusive to Botanical Craft....LOL did you change the way mother nature creates palm fruit.

Even your PDF says exactly what I have said you buy it from carotech, you've had it analyzed by Covance and started to declare the Vitamin A from Carotenes.....you even stated this on your label

Yes, our raw material is from Carotech and the Palm Fruit extract is exclusive to Botanical Craft as per our agreement with Carotech.


The extract used is exactly the same

Again, the extract in Palm Fruit is not the same as Toco-8 or Tococaps, and it is the carotenoid content that primarily makes the difference. If you ever actually assay your product from a 3rd party lab, you will see that your product does not have 9,700 IU of vitamin A from carotenoids. Toco-8 and Tococaps used a tocotrienol extract with a trace residual amount of naturally occuring carotenoids. Our product is a full-spectrum extract of tocols and carotenoids which includes 10 mg/serving of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids. This is about 50x more carotenoids than than both Toco-8 and your Tococaps.


You are playing on marketing spin claiming you have added something to the product when it naturally occurs in the extract itself....your product doesn't have 43x more carotenoids than your original toco8 per gram and you haven't beefed up the product.

It is really simple. We are using a different palm extract, thus explaining why our product contains 10 mg of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids, and yours only contains 0.2 mg. If you want information on how such a high carotenoid concentration is achieved I suggest you read this patent (http://www.google.com/patents/US5157132?dq=patent:5157132&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LWohUfHkHZKc8gS0voHIBg&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA).

5 alpha victim
05-29-2015, 04:23 PM
know this is off topic but why does wickeds toco caps contain B-Sitosterol, Campestrol and Stigmasterol?

These are three of the main PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3798925/#!po=0.602410)

Look on page 3

The toco from wicked is essentially Saw Palmetto with out the 5 Ar reducing Fatty acids that saw palmetto also contains.

Should this be of concern?

Does the toco 8 or this newer toco product also contain these PhytoSterols?

Eric Potratz
05-29-2015, 04:59 PM
know this is off topic but why does wickeds toco caps contain B-Sitosterol, Campestrol and Stigmasterol?

These are three of the main PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3798925/#!po=0.602410)

Look on page 3

The toco from wicked is essentially Saw Palmetto with out the 5 Ar reducing Fatty acids that saw palmetto also contains.

Should this be of concern?

Does the toco 8 or this newer toco product also contain these PhytoSterols?

Yes, any palm based supplement is naturally going to contain some small amount of phytosterols. The amounts should be fairly minimal at under 10 mg. If I recall correctly the effective anti-5a-reductase dose is around 300mg/day of phytosterols, so I wouldn't consider Palm Fruit an anti-androgen by any means.

entropy
05-30-2015, 07:48 AM
know this is off topic but why does wickeds toco caps contain B-Sitosterol, Campestrol and Stigmasterol?

These are three of the main PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3798925/#!po=0.602410)

Look on page 3

The toco from wicked is essentially Saw Palmetto with out the 5 Ar reducing Fatty acids that saw palmetto also contains.

Should this be of concern?

Does the toco 8 or this newer toco product also contain these PhytoSterols?

Do you actually read Bro? I already told you, these phytosterols are present everywhere and naturally occurring in palm fruit just like they're present in avocado.

5 alpha victim
05-30-2015, 10:31 PM
I seen your response to my question in the other thread. I believed your answere. I was just looking to get other people's opnions on it as well and this thread looked like a good one to post the question on.

I was thinking well these phyto Sterols are also natural occurring in saw palmetto but yet saw palmetto inhibits DHT. But clearly there is the question of how much of these phytosterols need to be ingested inorder to inhibit DHT. You addressed the point of toco caps not containing enough of these PhytoSterols to inhibit Dht in the other thread as well.

The more precise answere I was searching for that Eric posted was exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks for the info

With this all being said Seeing that saw palmetto contains a much higher percentage of fatty acids than it does Phytostetols perhaps the PhytoSterols in saw palmetto is not what's responsible for saw Palmetto's 5AR inhibiting effects. From the saw p study:

"Saw palmetto extracts predominantly consist of fatty acids (~90%) and are unique compared with other extracts and vegetable and nut oils"

weekend
05-30-2015, 11:04 PM
having both palm fruit and tococaps in my house right now, i have just tried my first dose of palm fruit. it tastes amazing. i don't know why it tastes so damn good.

i can't say i have for sure noticed anything over my years of using toco8, but what i can say is the product in tococaps tastes just like the old toco8, which i did not like at all! now i am excited to eat the palmfruit. yes i just ate it plain. dont breathe in while you drop it on your tongue.

hossam
05-31-2015, 12:08 AM
The palm fruit tastes amazing with Pomegranate juice, and i get an amazing
calming effect immediately after drinking it

tallstraw
05-31-2015, 06:07 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it actually tasted good. Smooth slight fruit flavor, and that little nutty aftertaste. My only quarrel is unless I shake it in a shaker cup it doesn't mix as well as I'd like..so I just spoon those things out and eat em when I'm done string the glass.

Speck
05-31-2015, 09:21 PM
Do you actually read Bro? I already told you, these phytosterols are present everywhere and naturally occurring in palm fruit just like they're present in avocado.

B-sitosterol is also present in Cistanche. Probably pine pollen too.

Basically it's in just about everything plant-based.

5 alpha victim
06-02-2015, 08:44 PM
Yea it sux. For normal people (even people who have experienced some version or degree of having an adverse reaction to Dht inhibitors this should not be a problem as far as coming across small amounts of B sit

My situation is a little diff though seeing that I took the most powerful PRESCRIPTION strength dhT inhibitor available (Avodart) and had NO adverse reaction what so ever.

But on two seperate occasions after taking Saw P I experienced a severe adverse reaction. Therefor saying that I am senstive to the contents in Saw P is a understatement. Seeing that B-sit is in Saw P I'm considering my self extremely sensitive to this particular phyto sterol. So Ya for me going the extra mile to cut as much as this praticular Phytosterol out of my diet as possible is necessary.

Toco caps for me is out of the equation. I cut out Mucuna pruriens from SMH bevause it contains B sit even though the Mucuna seems to be a really effective T booster.
I also had to cut out Avens Sativa because it contains B sit as well.

Even though we know pine pollen contains Gibberlins (which according to the study I posted in another thread is a mild 5AR inhibitor) and other Phytostetols I can't find any evidence that pine pollen contains B-Sit.

Also I have been on 1 table spoon of pine pollen for almost a week now and have nothing but good things to say. I'm not getting the increased sex drive from it probable because my endocrin system does not work the right way but I feel awesome on it as far as everything else goes.

hossam
06-02-2015, 10:01 PM
Yea it sux. For normal people (even people who have experienced some version or degree of having an adverse reaction to Dht inhibitors this should not be a problem as far as coming across small amounts of B sit

My situation is a little diff though seeing that I took the most powerful PRESCRIPTION strength dhT inhibitor available (Avodart) and had NO adverse reaction what so ever.

But on two seperate occasions after taking Saw P I experienced a severe adverse reaction. Therefor saying that I am senstive to the contents in Saw P is a understatement. Seeing that B-sit is in Saw P I'm considering my self extremely sensitive to this particular phyto sterol. So Ya for me going the extra mile to cut as much as this praticular Phytosterol out of my diet as possible is necessary.

Toco caps for me is out of the equation. I cut out Mucuna pruriens from SMH bevause it contains B sit even though the Mucuna seems to be a really effective T booster.
I also had to cut out Avens Sativa because it contains B sit as well.

Even though we know pine pollen contains Gibberlins (which according to the study I posted in another thread is a mild 5AR inhibitor) and other Phytostetols I can't find any evidence that pine pollen contains B-Sit.

Also I have been on 1 table spoon of pine pollen for almost a week now and have nothing but good things to say. I'm not getting the increased sex drive from it probable because my endocrin system does not work the right way but I feel awesome on it as far as everything else goes.

Palm fruit will not inhabit anything as Eric said, also
1 table spoon is not enough from pine pollen, i take around 5 table spoon a day and the
results is very strong, i even take an AI some times with it

5 alpha victim
06-03-2015, 10:21 PM
Dam! 5 Tabel spoons a day. LOL I don't know if I'm ready for 5 tabel spoons of it but maybe I'll work my self up over time. I can honestly say I'm feeling it off of one tabel spoon per day. It feels like a positive energy flowing through me or something..

I'm taking one dose of RES from wicked sups every 3rd day which seems to be giving me positive effects as well.

What are you using for your AI?

O.N.
06-05-2015, 11:02 PM
Sorry for my delay in responding to you Eric and the rest of the forum.
Lets just confine this to 1 thread instead of 2 unless we both wish to be repeating our selves in 2 threads.
Can you please confirm a few things for me and for the forum, from your posts highlighted in red.



1


Funny, I just got to this 1.5 year old post on my “to-do” list. Better late than never!

O.N., our Palm Fruit uses a unique extract that is exclusive to Botanical Craft, and I know for a fact it is not the same as your Tococaps product. Palm Fruit has about 10 mg/serving of carotenoids (http://botanicalcraft.com/content/PDFs/carotenoids_analysis_results_post_production_covan ce.pdf), while it looks like the Tococaps has about 0.2 mg/serving. Thats about 50 times more carotenoids per serving. FYI, Palm Fruit has the highest dose of tocotrienols and carotenoids per serving of any product on the market, hence the higher than average price.

Yes, our raw material is from Carotech and the Palm Fruit extract is exclusive to Botanical Craft as per our agreement with Carotech.

Q1: So are you saying that your raw material is not tocomax 20% and that it is actually a unique extract which is exclusive to botanical craft as per an agreement you have with Carotech?




2


Again, the extract in Palm Fruit is not the same as Toco-8 or Tococaps, and it is the carotenoid content that primarily makes the difference. If you ever actually assay your product from a 3rd party lab, you will see that your product does not have 9,700 IU of vitamin A from carotenoids. Toco-8 and Tococaps used a tocotrienol extract with a trace residual amount of naturally occuring carotenoids. Our product is a full-spectrum extract of tocols and carotenoids which includes 10 mg/serving of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids. This is about 50x more carotenoids than than both Toco-8 and your Tococaps.
It is really simple. We are using a different palm extract, thus explaining why our product contains 10 mg of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids, and yours only contains 0.2 mg.


Q2: Are you saying that you are using a different palm extract to tocomax 20% which contains a higher concentration of carotenoids than tocomax 20% which was previously used in toco8 and also used in our product tococaps?


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Summary:

Can you please answer my above questions and should the above questions I have asked be true statements I apologize as I thought you were using Tocomax 20% and simply 3rd party tested the vitamin A content and started claiming it on your product label.

Eric Potratz
06-06-2015, 11:21 AM
I understand your original assumption, and I’m sure it was just a misunderstanding.

Our raw material is not Tocomax 20% per se’, but our product does contain all the same tocols as Tocomax giving us the rights to make claims regarding improved bioavailability, hair growth, cardiovascular health, etc., which have been established for Tocomax type material. Our product also contains carotenoids that exceed that of Tocomax. With that said, our agreement with Carotech is confidential to protect the IP behind our product, so I'm not able to give details that would compromise this. All I can say is that the tocols and carotenoids are coming from palm fruit (elaeis guineensis), and Carotech supplies this material.

O.N.
06-06-2015, 02:15 PM
Why is it that you continue to lie?
The truth would have been nice from the beginning Eric, I even gave you the opportunity just now to tell the truth, hell you could have even said yes we are using tocomax 20% + something else....I wouldn't be posting this now or what you are using if you had of said that.

You informed myself and the forum you were having a unique extract made exclusively for botanical craft...which I found very hard to believe, that carotech would go to so much effort for a new product AND for a newly established small business.

But you didn't you decided to stick with your lie that you are not using tocomax 20% and that carotech think so highly of you that they have gone to the effort of making you an exclusive extract just for you.


Carotech are not producing an exclusive extract/formula for you
You are using Tocomax 20% along with the addition of the inexpensive Carosol 3%
You are buying both materials separately and combining them


You're a liar and someone who lies about 1 part of the story is usually lying about many other parts of the story too
Cough Cough..........

It looks as though you paid out loads of money to get out of the mess you created here: https://search.rpxcorp.com/litigation_documents/4448467 (https://search.rpxcorp.com/litigation_documents/4448467)
Just a couple of months before the "FDA raid".


In 2008 you struck a deal to pay a 4% commission to Proprietary Wellness for 1 of their patents
And again in Feb 2010 you struck a deal for a 2nd license agreement with Proprietary Wellness for a 2nd patent of theirs
In October 2010 you stopped making royalty payments on both licenses
In May of 2011 you started using a 3rd patent of Proprietary Wellness's patented formulas without a license or permission.
On 6 February 24, 2011 Proprietary Wellness sent you a letter telling you to cease and desist its use.
You refused to cease and desist and continued to manufacture, market, and sell dietary supplements of now 3 different patented formulas
In 2011 you communicated with Proprietary Wellness's 3rd party business customers (other supplement companies) that Proprietary Wellness was making misrepresentations with regards to its intellectual property rights in order to take advantage of individuals and business within the nutritional supplement industry.
Proprietary Wellness claims you are infringing and/or directing other supplement companies to manufacture, market, and/or sell the protected compounds inducing others to infringe on the patent by making, using, offering to sell, and/or selling in the United States, and/or importing into the United States products or processes that practice the invention claimed in the patents.
And that you have profited though all of these infringements.


If I read the court documents correctly from your court case there are multiple claims against you for $375,000 in total + sales royalties "which royalties may not be able to be accounted for".
I'll now quote you from your own website based on your raid:
Primordial has been struggling financially for the past several years. We have about $300,000 in debt with various suppliers and creditors.

Even if the FDA raid is true or false....either way I think people can make up their own minds here about you as a person.
What is that saying? Liars and cheaters never prosper



I understand your original assumption, and I’m sure it was just a misunderstanding.

Our raw material is not Tocomax 20% per se’, but our product does contain all the same tocols as Tocomax giving us the rights to make claims regarding improved bioavailability, hair growth, cardiovascular health, etc., which have been established for Tocomax type material. Our product also contains carotenoids that exceed that of Tocomax. With that said, our agreement with Carotech is confidential to protect the IP behind our product, so I'm not able to give details that would compromise this. All I can say is that the tocols and carotenoids are coming from palm fruit (elaeis guineensis), and Carotech supplies this material.


Funny, I just got to this 1.5 year old post on my “to-do” list. Better late than never!

O.N., our Palm Fruit uses a unique extract that is exclusive to Botanical Craft, and I know for a fact it is not the same as your Tococaps product. Palm Fruit has about 10 mg/serving of carotenoids (http://botanicalcraft.com/content/PDFs/carotenoids_analysis_results_post_production_covan ce.pdf), while it looks like the Tococaps has about 0.2 mg/serving. Thats about 50 times more carotenoids per serving. FYI, Palm Fruit has the highest dose of tocotrienols and carotenoids per serving of any product on the market, hence the higher than average price.


Yes, our raw material is from Carotech and the Palm Fruit extract is exclusive to Botanical Craft as per our agreement with Carotech.



Again, the extract in Palm Fruit is not the same as Toco-8 or Tococaps, and it is the carotenoid content that primarily makes the difference. If you ever actually assay your product from a 3rd party lab, you will see that your product does not have 9,700 IU of vitamin A from carotenoids. Toco-8 and Tococaps used a tocotrienol extract with a trace residual amount of naturally occuring carotenoids. Our product is a full-spectrum extract of tocols and carotenoids which includes 10 mg/serving of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids. This is about 50x more carotenoids than than both Toco-8 and your Tococaps.
It is really simple. We are using a different palm extract, thus explaining why our product contains 10 mg of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids, and yours only contains 0.2 mg.



O.N.

Thanks for hijacking the thread with inaccurate info.

Palm Fruit does have 43 times more carotenoids than Toco-8, and about 50 times more carotenoids than Tococaps. Palm Fruit is using a much improved extract, which includes a much higher concentration of carotenoids than the previously used Tocomax. BTW, Palm Fruit has the highest concentration of tocotrienols and carotenoids of any product on the market. This includes at least 10 different tocochromanols and 18 different naturally occurring carotenoids from palm fruit.

You can see our product has about 9 mg/serving (http://botanicalcraft.com/content/PDFs/carotenoids_analysis_results_post_production_covan ce.pdf) (1.45 g) of carotenoids, while Tococaps only has about 0.2 mg/serving. That means each serving of Palm Fruit has about 13,300 IU of vitamin A, while Tococaps would only have about 330 IU of vitamin A.

Eric Potratz
06-06-2015, 09:34 PM
Why is it that you continue to lie?
The truth would have been nice from the beginning Eric, I even gave you the opportunity just now to tell the truth, hell you could have even said yes we are using tocomax 20% + something else....I wouldn't be posting this now or what you are using if you had of said that.

You informed myself and the forum you were having a unique extract made exclusively for botanical craft...which I found very hard to believe, that carotech would go to so much effort for a new product AND for a newly established small business.

Kirk,

First off, the Proprietary Wellness allegations found in that document are a very small part of a very complicated case. Regardless of your opinion and conspiracy theories, we settled with them years ago and they had nothing to do with the FDA raid or the demise of Primordial.

Now let me get this straight... because it looks like you're throwing a lot of mud to cover some pretty simple facts....

First you say our products are exactly the same and I'm lying about our product being superior?

But now you take that back and instead I’m a big liar about the origin of our superior material?

Well atleast we are now on the same page that our Palm Fruit is superior. (Hopefully the next leap in logic will come sooner rather than later)

Regarding our formula, everything I’ve said still applies. If you are really interested in getting formulation details so you can copy my product go ahead and send our Palm Fruit to a lab to reverse engineer it and do your own R&D. This would be a bit more respectable than making a bunch of false theories and allegations to try and get me to purge information.

O.N.
06-07-2015, 12:18 AM
Eric you have come out and touted your new product as if your toco8 product was average and that your new product is totally different and so much better, yet almost all of the health benefits you claim are attached to tocomax 20% and tocomax 20% is the main ingredient in your product. You then added carosol 3% which is actually quite i nice product in itself. Yet you decide to lie and big note yourself that you have discovered/created something nobody else has, you have claimed a secret agreement with carotech to produce this 1 specific extract just for your small home based business.....when it's all a lie.

And there really was nothing wrong with tocomax 20%...hence why it's the major ingredient in your product and the many human trials it has been involved in and shown in very positive light.

Eric I have no need to purge information from you the spec sheet of Carosol 3% and tocomax 20% show exactly what your formula for palm fruit is. Plus I wouldn't want to replicate a product that is inconvenient to consume.



EDIT: I hope anyone reading this post also goes back to page 14 and start reading from post #137

weekend
06-07-2015, 10:15 AM
Eric you have come out and touted your new product as if your toco8 product was average and that your new product is totally different and so much better, yet almost all of the health benefits you claim are attached to tocomax 20% and tocomax 20% is the main ingredient in your product. You then added carosol 3% which is actually quite i nice product in itself. Yet you decide to lie and big note yourself that you have discovered/created something nobody else has, you have claimed a secret agreement with carotech to produce this 1 specific extract just for your small home based business.....when it's all a lie.

And there really was nothing wrong with tocomax 20%...hence why it's the major ingredient in your product and the many human trials it has been involved in and shown in very positive light.

Eric I have no need to purge information from you the spec sheet of Carosol 3% and tocomax 20% show exactly what your formula for palm fruit is. Plus I wouldn't want to replicate a product that is inconvenient to consume.



EDIT: I hope anyone reading this post also goes back to page 14 and start reading from post #137


ON, you're annoying as hell. Stop posting a bunch of bullshit to try and bring all your competition down. No one cares. This forum is practically dead. Eric is a good dude, and he's the reason we're all here.

Eric Potratz
06-07-2015, 10:35 AM
Eric you have come out and touted your new product as if your toco8 product was average and that your new product is totally different and so much better, yet almost all of the health benefits you claim are attached to tocomax 20% and tocomax 20% is the main ingredient in your product. You then added carosol 3% which is actually quite i nice product in itself. Yet you decide to lie and big note yourself that you have discovered/created something nobody else has, you have claimed a secret agreement with carotech to produce this 1 specific extract just for your small home based business.

Kirk/ON,

The fact is Botanical Craft is producing an exclusive product because no one else is producing one that has the phytonutrients Palm Fruit does. I never said someone couldn't copy the product. It sounds like you have a good theory on how our product can be copied so go ahead and run with that. Good luck.


Weekend,

Thanks for the kind words.

entropy
06-08-2015, 07:29 PM
I can't actually believe how cool Eric is being about this. I would actually be losing my shit about now. Hey, O.N, I use tococaps even though Eric makes a product. Tonnes of us like your stuff regardless, we know you're legit. However trying to pick holes in your competition over a few dollars reflects real bad on you..

Cdsnuts
06-09-2015, 04:39 PM
Makes you seem a little desperate O.N.

O.N.
06-09-2015, 11:33 PM
Makes you seem a little desperate O.N.

I am sorry you feel the way you do, you have to understand how I feel.

The major ingredient in his product is the same as ours tocomax 20%, he then sprinkles it with the finest amount of carosol 3% which is a very cheap product, he touts on that his older toco8 product was average in comparison...which is basically the same as saying tococaps is average yet 99% of his health claims on his product are from the tocomax 20%.....which is apparently average and again the major ingredient in his product is the tocomax 20%.

Whatever over it now I've had my rant, I understand the forum is filled with people who are close to Eric or believe in him in a great deal, either way I don't regret anything I have said, I'd say it publicly if we were all in the same room too.

hossam
06-10-2015, 12:41 AM
From my point of view nothing wrong with competition and good discussion but the bad part was the way you addressed your claims ON when you are accusing Eric of laying and small home business and all the crap you have said makes you look like an amateur in the business and not a professional business owner.

O.N.
06-10-2015, 01:15 AM
Hossam Eric claimed things which were not true, eg he claimed carotech are producing his formula specifically just for him through a contractual agreement.....they are not...they are selling him 2 products and he is combining them. 1 product is the main ingredient (tocomax 20%) the other is carosol 3% it is used in a very small amount it is very cheap.

We confirmed this with Carotech after all this started over the last week or so.

So yes he did lie about several things.

End of the day whatever well and truly over it now.

Cdsnuts
06-10-2015, 05:49 AM
So it comes down to you saying he's lying and him saying he's not. Correct?

O.N.
06-10-2015, 06:44 AM
So it comes down to you saying he's lying and him saying he's not. Correct?

I do not have carotechs permission to post emails on here, but you as a consumer of their products are more than welcome to call and ask what products are you consuming when you buy palm fruit from botanical craft.

Here is their US phone number: +1 (732) 906 1901

silverstrand
06-10-2015, 11:04 AM
I do not have carotechs permission to post emails on here, but you as a consumer of their products are more than welcome to call and ask what products are you consuming when you buy palm fruit from botanical craft.

Here is their US phone number: +1 (732) 906 1901

I've tried both the Eric's current Palm Extract and his Toco 8. I've liked both; and imagine I received benefits from them but honestly, I couldn't tell the difference between the two, besides taste and color. I believe his current Palm Extract tastes best; my only issue with it is the low solubility with water or juice. I feel like a good portion is wasted due to clumps sticking to the side of the glass. I would be happy with an organic addition to the extract that would allow for better solubility. If your product disolves better in water, this could potentially be another selling point I'd be interested in.

That said, Eric apprears to hold high favor with many on this forum as he should. He has done a lot of work and research to help those on this site. He's also in a tough spot with the legal procedings brought to court by the FDA which I believe are fraudulent on the FDA's part. I'm willing to use both products, his and yours. I believe you'll find more support by emphasizing the benefits of your porduct and the possibility of being superior to Eric's (but not as an absolute). If I were you, I'd encourage use of both products and let the customers decide on preference.

O.N.
06-10-2015, 11:22 AM
I've tried both the Eric's current Palm Extract and his Toco 8. I've liked both; and imagine I received benefits from them but honestly, I couldn't tell the difference between the two, besides taste and color. I believe his current Palm Extract tastes best; my only issue with it is the low solubility with water or juice. I feel like a good portion is wasted due to clumps sticking to the side of the glass. I would be happy with an organic addition to the extract that would allow for better solubility. If your product disolves better in water, this could potentially be another selling point I'd be interested in.

That said, Eric apprears to hold high favor with many on this forum as he should. He has done a lot of work and research to help those on this site. He's also in a tough spot with the legal procedings brought to court by the FDA which I believe are fraudulent on the FDA's part. I'm willing to use both products, his and yours. I believe you'll find more support by emphasizing the benefits of your porduct and the possibility of being superior to Eric's (but not as an absolute). If I were you, I'd encourage use of both products and let the customers decide on preference.

Our product is in a capsule, swallow it down zero waste easy to consume.

I'll lay our your raw Tocotrienols/Tocopherols cost here for you per 1000mg
botanical craft 4312mg per container $49.99 cost per 1000mg = $11.59
TocoCaps 7120mg per container $49.95 AUD cost per 1000mg = $7.01 (actual mg per container)

$7.01 AUD currently = $5.65 USD

booklifter
06-10-2015, 11:46 AM
I've tried both the Eric's current Palm Extract and his Toco 8. I've liked both; and imagine I received benefits from them but honestly, I couldn't tell the difference between the two, besides taste and color. I believe his current Palm Extract tastes best; my only issue with it is the low solubility with water or juice. I feel like a good portion is wasted due to clumps sticking to the side of the glass. I would be happy with an organic addition to the extract that would allow for better solubility. If your product disolves better in water, this could potentially be another selling point I'd be interested in.

Have you tried it with just the tiniest amount of sunflower lecithin mixed in (or soy if you don't mind it)? I'd use the dry granules to make it easier to meter out and dissolve such a small amount but whatever form, it'll work or not work the same. He's already got some emulsifiers premixed in there but probably wanted to keep the dilution/filling and nutritional impact to a minimum (giving consumers the freedom to try stuff like this, or not).

Eric Potratz
06-10-2015, 09:31 PM
Hossam Eric claimed things which were not true, eg he claimed carotech are producing his formula specifically just for him through a contractual agreement.....they are not...they are selling him 2 products and he is combining them. 1 product is the main ingredient (tocomax 20%) the other is carosol 3% it is used in a very small amount it is very cheap.

We confirmed this with Carotech after all this started over the last week or so.

So yes he did lie about several things.

End of the day whatever well and truly over it now.

Kirk,

Nothing was a lie. You simply misinterpreted what I said. The extract in Palm Fruit is exclusive to Botanical Craft so long as someone doesn’t reverse engineer and copy our formula, and we do have a confidentiality agreement with Carotech to support our exclusive formula.

Eric Potratz
06-10-2015, 09:33 PM
I've tried both the Eric's current Palm Extract and his Toco 8. I've liked both; and imagine I received benefits from them but honestly, I couldn't tell the difference between the two, besides taste and color. I believe his current Palm Extract tastes best; my only issue with it is the low solubility with water or juice. I feel like a good portion is wasted due to clumps sticking to the side of the glass. I would be happy with an organic addition to the extract that would allow for better solubility. If your product disolves better in water, this could potentially be another selling point I'd be interested in.

That said, Eric apprears to hold high favor with many on this forum as he should. He has done a lot of work and research to help those on this site. He's also in a tough spot with the legal procedings brought to court by the FDA which I believe are fraudulent on the FDA's part. I'm willing to use both products, his and yours. I believe you'll find more support by emphasizing the benefits of your porduct and the possibility of being superior to Eric's (but not as an absolute). If I were you, I'd encourage use of both products and let the customers decide on preference.

Hey silverstrand,

The Palm Fruit doesn't mix very well in cold liquid. Try mixing it with something hot/warm like coffee or tea. It also mixes well with yogurt, oatmeal, and smoothies.

O.N.
06-10-2015, 10:25 PM
Kirk,

Nothing was a lie. You simply misinterpreted what I said. The extract in Palm Fruit is exclusive to Botanical Craft so long as someone doesn’t reverse engineer and copy our formula, and we do have a confidentiality agreement with Carotech to support our exclusive formula.

I love your back pedaling now that a contact phone number for carotech has been given out and that all American consumers have the right to know what they are consuming if you are claiming an "exclusive formula" and someone else is saying nope it's just tocomax 20% and carosol 3%......I am not claiming it's is these 2 carotech products based on my own assumptions I am claiming it is these 2 products based on what Carotech have told me!


Yes, our raw material is from Carotech and the Palm Fruit extract is exclusive to Botanical Craft as per our agreement with Carotech.


Q1: So are you saying that your raw material is not tocomax 20% and that it is actually a unique extract which is exclusive to botanical craft as per an agreement you have with Carotech?



Again, the extract in Palm Fruit is not the same as Toco-8 or Tococaps, and it is the carotenoid content that primarily makes the difference. If you ever actually assay your product from a 3rd party lab, you will see that your product does not have 9,700 IU of vitamin A from carotenoids. Toco-8 and Tococaps used a tocotrienol extract with a trace residual amount of naturally occuring carotenoids. Our product is a full-spectrum extract of tocols and carotenoids which includes 10 mg/serving of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids. This is about 50x more carotenoids than than both Toco-8 and your Tococaps.
It is really simple. We are using a different palm extract, thus explaining why our product contains 10 mg of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids, and yours only contains 0.2 mg.




Q2: Are you saying that you are using a different palm extract to tocomax 20% which contains a higher concentration of carotenoids than tocomax 20% which was previously used in toco8 and also used in our product tococaps?



Our raw material is not Tocomax 20% per se’, but our product does contain all the same tocols as Tocomax giving us the rights to make claims regarding improved bioavailability, hair growth, cardiovascular health, etc., which have been established for Tocomax type material. Our product also contains carotenoids that exceed that of Tocomax. With that said, our agreement with Carotech is confidential to protect the IP behind our product, so I'm not able to give details that would compromise this. All I can say is that the tocols and carotenoids are coming from palm fruit (elaeis guineensis), and Carotech supplies this material.



---------------------------------------------------------
Based on all questions and answers you have given you have represented yourself that carotech is making an exclusive formulation just for you, you have even gone as far as saying "Our raw material is not Tocomax 20%" and "We are using a different palm extract"


Carotech have confirmed you do not have an exclusive formula they are making for you, you do not have a confidentiality agreement to buy 2 different products from them without anyone else asking for that information (as consumers we have the right to know what we are consuming).
They do not know your formula as they are not making it, all they know is they supply you with 2 products tocomax 20% and carosol 3%.
Everything you have said here represented yourself as carotech having made this "one" formulation just for you.

weekend
06-11-2015, 01:01 AM
i have never noticed anything for certain from a toco product. i take them because i believe in the write ups, which you basically verbatim copied from eric on your whole site ON.

i'm only paying 24.99 per tub of palm fruit, so its the same price as yours. it tastes really good, unlike the contents of toco caps which is identical to toco8

you never invented anything novel like he did, only cloned his products and created epic gains (epically expensive)

i'd rather support eric just because he's not trying to attack you like you are him. palm fruit is clearly a different product, and wording on here is not worth reading into.. they are pretty much the same price.

maybe spend your effort making something HE doesn't know how to make. or work on making epic gainz way cheaper or something. fuck i dont know. this is a waste of your time.

O.N.
06-11-2015, 01:29 AM
Wouldn't it sound great if a supplement company came out and either claimed or portrayed that "Glaxosmithkline are formulating our product for us exclusively, it's completely different to similar products and it doesn't use the same products they are using"

It's unbelievable to make such a claim/portray a claim....the same being said to come out and say Carotech is making our palm fruit formula for us exclusively, we have a contractual agreement with them....we are not using tocomax 20%.

We then call carotech hey whats the deal are you making something exclusively just for botanical craft....cause thats what he is telling everyone
They then say no he's using the same material as you with the additional of carosol 3%.....we don't know his formula but thats the 2 products he is buying from us.

How much is carosol 3%?...ok cool
How much is needed for 9700IU of vitamin A?....ok cool

Sounds very inexpensive thanks.

It always sounds good to portray yourself as bigger than what you are or having the help of a big company involved in your production of a formula like carotech. But a play on words or a twist of the truth isn't a good thing.

Tell me from what Eric has written at no point did you feel that he was saying carotech is making his specific extract just for him and that he doesn't use the same product as us tocomax 20%?

Cdsnuts
06-11-2015, 05:41 AM
i have never noticed anything for certain from a toco product. i take them because i believe in the write ups, which you basically verbatim copied from eric on your whole site ON.

i'm only paying 24.99 per tub of palm fruit, so its the same price as yours. it tastes really good, unlike the contents of toco caps which is identical to toco8

you never invented anything novel like he did, only cloned his products and created epic gains (epically expensive)

i'd rather support eric just because he's not trying to attack you like you are him. palm fruit is clearly a different product, and wording on here is not worth reading into.. they are pretty much the same price.

maybe spend your effort making something HE doesn't know how to make. or work on making epic gainz way cheaper or something. fuck i dont know. this is a waste of your time.

The look and feel of the whole site is a copy of PP's site. The way they list the products....the way they do the write ups. Everything.

silverstrand
06-11-2015, 10:54 AM
Hey silverstrand,

The Palm Fruit doesn't mix very well in cold liquid. Try mixing it with something hot/warm like coffee or tea. It also mixes well with yogurt, oatmeal, and smoothies.

I have not tried it in anything other than a cold liquid. I'll give it a shot and see how it goes. Thanks.

hossam
06-11-2015, 11:04 AM
Use it in the shaker with cold liquids and it will dissolve after a few shakes....pomegranate juice my favorite

silverstrand
06-11-2015, 11:26 AM
Tell me from what Eric has written at no point did you feel that he was saying carotech is making his specific extract just for him and that he doesn't use the same product as us tocomax 20%?

Once again, its all about your approach. You think by attacking someone, you'll rally support for your products but I tell you, its doing the opposite. Take a second to think about this:
So what if your product contains percentage more active ingredients over your competitors - the way I see it, as a customer, I dont really know if that much extra will even do anything in my body - I might just shit it out. Is there any research to support higher concentrations might be better for me? What can I expect to gain from this higher concentration? (you dont need to answer these questions - I'm giving you ideas on what to communicate to your customers that build support - with this approach, you are FOCUSING ON YOUR CUSTOMERS AND LESS ON YOUR COMPETITION)

You both source from the same supplier so its very likely the nutritional/quality are the same. Eric may in fact have a method that promotes supperiority over what is "typically" supplied but then again you have 65% more Tocotrienols/Tocopherols which can make up or even exceed that.
Secondly, you provide this suppliment in caps which makes for easy dosing and no loss of product when taking them. The flipside of using caps is for those enjoying the taste, this might not be a preference for them.
Lastly, you have several products that you can offer as a deal or package. This advantage is yours until Botonical Craft creates more products. Out of convenience, people will purchase yours if they can also grab other other good products as well.

Stop the attacks and focus on the customer. You dont want to turn people off to your other products because of these attacks. You must admit, your competition, Eric, created the demand, so some thanks and respect should be extended.

Eric Potratz
06-11-2015, 12:13 PM
I love your back pedaling now that a contact phone number for carotech has been given out and that all American consumers have the right to know what they are consuming if you are claiming an "exclusive formula" and someone else is saying nope it's just tocomax 20% and carosol 3%......I am not claiming it's is these 2 carotech products based on my own assumptions I am claiming it is these 2 products based on what Carotech have told me!

Carotech have confirmed you do not have an exclusive formula they are making for you, you do not have a confidentiality agreement to buy 2 different products from them without anyone else asking for that information (as consumers we have the right to know what we are consuming).
They do not know your formula as they are not making it, all they know is they supply you with 2 products tocomax 20% and carosol 3%.
Everything you have said here represented yourself as carotech having made this "one" formulation just for you.


Assuming you're not contorting what Carotech said, whoever you spoke with at Carotech must have been misinformed, and I’ve reached out to them to get things straightened out. It is a fact that we have a confidentiality agreement. BTW, your information on how our formula is created is still not entirely accurate, but keep trying.

Our customers know exactly what they are consuming because we have full disclosure on ingredients, and provide extensive 3rd party lab analyses on bioactives (http://botanicalcraft.com/content/PDFs/carotenoids_analysis_results_post_production_covan ce.pdf), pesticides (http://botanicalcraft.com/content/PDFs/02012013_ALS_125%20Pesticide%20Analysis.pdf), microbes (http://botanicalcraft.com/content/PDFs/5036520-microbials%20finished%20product.pdf), heavy metals (http://botanicalcraft.com/content/PDFs/5036520-PROP%2065%20HEAVY%20METALS.pdf), etc. We actually have to send to 4 different labs to get these results. We don’t hide anything from customers, but we do put guards in place to protect our IP from flagrant copycats.

Curious, what testing have you done to account for stratification on your powder blend? Have you done bioactive testing at different portions of your blend to know that bioactives and fillers are consistently blended? Or tests on your capsule weights? I've seen capsules range from 50-150% of label claims before. Can you post a 3rd party lab assay on your finished product?

O.N.
06-11-2015, 12:29 PM
We do not use fillers in our capsuling process only the raw material. This can be done when you deal with high quality contractors willing to use alternative physical methods than your typical lubricating fillers like magnesium sterate etc.

Our capsules are +/- 2-5% so highly accurate especially given our overage which was originally 325mg per capsule but is now 350mg per capsule when the requirement is only 315mg to meet the label claim.

This is something we pride ourselves on as you know many fillers have been linked to some nasty side effects.
This is why we do not use them and we also use vegetarian capsules.

Eric Potratz
06-11-2015, 12:32 PM
Our capsules are +/- 2-5% so highly accurate especially given our overage which was originally 325mg per capsule but is now 350mg per capsule when the requirement is only 315mg to meet the label claim.

So you have some 3rd party lab assays to verify that? Go ahead and post them.

booklifter
06-11-2015, 12:38 PM
I sure hope this pissing match between the revered founder of our former home and the one who resurrected what he could of said leader's former product line for our benefit, isn't the dying gasp of our once-great forum. I mean, everyone seems to have acknowledged the lull in activity and loss of some heavyweight contributors, I just hope this thread doesn't become the epitaph of either swole source or primordial performance.

The only good part about this is the, albeit unintended, transparency about product details that aren't normally disclosed, but it's almost as if everyone's in emotional turmoil due to the worldwide shortage of trestolone :rolleyes:

O.N.
06-11-2015, 12:58 PM
So you have some 3rd party lab assays to verify that? Go ahead and post them.

We do not keep stored results of filled capsule weights on hand, it's not nessasary. We know how many grams is used per batch, QC weighs 5-10% of finished capsules at random to confirm capsuling is accurate and filling / capsuling equipment is functioning correctly.

Eric Potratz
06-11-2015, 01:06 PM
I sure hope this pissing match between the revered founder of our former home and the one who resurrected what he could of said leader's former product line for our benefit, isn't the dying gasp of our once-great forum. I mean, everyone seems to have acknowledged the lull in activity and loss of some heavyweight contributors, I just hope this thread doesn't become the epitaph of either swole source or primordial performance.

The only good part about this is the, albeit unintended, transparency about product details that aren't normally disclosed, but it's almost as if everyone's in emotional turmoil due to the worldwide shortage of trestolone :rolleyes:

Isn't this the discourse you guys love? No debate too big, nor too small?

But you're right, I should be spending my time putting together useful content, making new products come to life, etc. I've made my points here so hopefully it has helped.

Eric Potratz
06-11-2015, 01:09 PM
We do not keep stored results of filled capsule weights on hand, it's not nessasary. We know how many grams is used per batch, QC weighs 5-10% of finished capsules at random to confirm capsuling is accurate and filling / capsuling equipment is functioning correctly.

So you've never tested your finished product to verify it contains the tocotrienols you claim?

O.N.
06-11-2015, 01:18 PM
So you've never tested your finished product to verify it contains the tocotrienols you claim?

Every batch from carotech is tested, under Australian law no manufacturer is allowed to use any material without testing it.
At the end of the day we could be asking carotech or tampering with batches to be a drug and have them illegally capsule it for us, based on the law all raws are tested to satisfy the contractor that they are not breaking the law.

Something you failed to do since you ran a kitchen operation that never meet your countries requirements.....something you openly admitted in your goodbye speech on primordials website.



The FDA has also made accusations that our dose of active ingredients has been “inconsistent” between our batches. I am not sure of the origin of this claim. They also pointed out that our production workers were not wearing masks, and that we do not have a temperature controlled facility.

Admittedly, we have struggled to meet GMP guidelines since they became a requirement in June 2010. We started as a home based company in 2006 and moved to a 5000 sq ft facility in 2009, and hired laboratory staff to make efforts to meet GMP requirements.

And then you also had many consumers complain of different tastes, colors and textures of your products.

Not to mention some of the ingredients that were being digested internally were not approved for internal consumption.

Eric Potratz
06-11-2015, 01:41 PM
Every batch from carotech is tested, under Australian law no manufacturer is allowed to use any material without testing it.
At the end of the day we could be asking carotech or tampering with batches to be a drug and have them illegally capsule it for us, based on the law all raws are tested to satisfy the contractor that they are not breaking the law.

Ok, this is not making any sense. This has nothing to do with Carotech. Manufacturers must test their finished products at a 3rd party lab to verify the finished product has what the label claims, as per FDA and TGA law.

So you have never had your finished product tested by a 3rd party lab?

O.N.
06-11-2015, 01:50 PM
You are not reading what I have written correctly, every batch is 3rd party tested through our contractor.

Eric Potratz
06-11-2015, 01:54 PM
You are not reading what I have written correctly, every batch is 3rd party tested through our contractor.

Ok, so go ahead and post those lab results.

O.N.
06-11-2015, 02:00 PM
No problem i will request the contractor to have them emailed to me and post it later.

tallstraw
06-11-2015, 08:19 PM
ON, where exactly are all your products assembled. You made a comment on his bathtub lab..but I distinctly remember you talking about the gallons or something along those lines of Epic gainz you had..Im gonna take a gander and say you aren't opening a new Epic Gainz every couple days..but probably pulling from he master batch? which I would assume means the bottles aren't coming to you prefilled and etc but that you're doing it yourself(or your staff)..so I'm wondering what your procedures are to how you fill your own lineup..not the stuff you resale for others obviously. Since it comes to you like that.

Not doing this as an attack. But now I'm interested after seeing you make that comment.

O.N.
06-11-2015, 08:48 PM
tallstraw all of our products are contract made in Australia, pumped into bottles and filled by weight including an overage and labeled we then take delivery of wooden pallets which have a big cardboard box filled with 400 bottles per pallet/box.

My personal use of the product is the same as the end consumer....I open a labeled bottle and take it, I just have access to a lot so can consume as much as i like and write it off as a business expense.

tallstraw
06-12-2015, 01:20 PM
Ah okay.


Must be nice having a business write off..lol

Cdsnuts
06-12-2015, 05:24 PM
Ah okay.


Must be nice having a business write off..lol

Must be nice having THAT business write off.