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Infamy
06-18-2013, 02:32 AM
To expand on the question and my reason for posting this:

My background - I've used AAS for a good few years now - injectables and orals and mainly the "traditional" anabolics at that. I started using them after age 30 when I felt I needed more of an edge and natural progression seems to have all but halted. Thats a good 5-6 years use. Some of which was continuous and some cycled.

For balance, although i'm natural now, i've not completely stopped cycling as I would admit I have somewhat of an addiction to it (it's bad for me but I still dont stop). However, given my change of heart on this matter, my use is greatly reduced and I will be at a complete stop in the next few years.

More and more recently i've been realising that AAS may just be a waste of time and actually a bad idea. I say this because it has become clear that no matter what you use, and how many cycles or time on, if you come off them you will get smaller and fatter. That's a fact. Steroids push you into an unnatural state of being and once you stop forcing your body to be something it isn't, it reverts back towards how it wants to be.

Now I admit, when you stop taking something you dont bounce back to how you were, you may be a bit bigger or (temporarily) a bit leaner but you even that will reduce over time without steroids. The more you have used and the more outside of your usual state you have gotten into, the worse the comedown from the gear. Take a look at Flex Wheeler now. So can start the cycle of addiction as you see yourself getting smaller and fatter.

So it comes down to this, if you use gear, you have to come off at some point (TRT excepted but I class that in a different league as it isn't taken at anabolic doses). When you come off, you lose what the gear gave you - although that process may take a number of years to happen as it is slow and gradual. If you are sitting there looking smugly at yourself thinking you havent lost what gear gave you, then give it time, it will happen eventually!

To make matters worse, all steroids when taken at anabolic doses cause damage to your health. The better they are at building muscle, the worse then tend to be on your body (look at tren, deca, M1T, oral tren etc).

So all you are doing is taking something which may shorten your life expectancy (those under 30 probably dont consider this an issue but believe me as you get older you appreciate your health and your own mortality!) for what is, really just a temporary gain. Is that worth it? Some may say yes, but for me, I've been leaning towards the "no".

Sperwer
06-18-2013, 04:29 AM
Are you suggesting that there is no way to use AAS responsibly in a prudent manner as a tool; that they are inherently addictive and harmful, even if not abused? Is the concept of "abuse" even pertinent in your considerations?

Is it safe to say that you don't believe Robby Robinson has been natural for the past 13-14 years since retiring from active competition (as claimed) and that his current condition is res ipsa loquitur evidence of his continued use of gear?

Jelisej
06-18-2013, 04:58 AM
In both individual and teams sports- its hard to get to the top- but even harder is to stay on top, it is same with AAS- muscles you buid is very hard to maintain and if you not on top of the game- most of it will go away. And is hard to stay on top as life dictates rules.

Once person gets hooked on AAS, rarely they get off. In past people did not agree with me- but there is strong correlation between AAS users and people on TRT, and TRT is not a fan as many would beleive.

Also building muscles/losing weight will not have long term effect on ones self-esteem and confidence, it will just slightly improve it.

Saying that, AAS/PHs are very useful in many situations/conditions, and even few cycles are OK as long as some rules are followed.

Personaly I beleive in Hormonal Optimisation- using simple, basic medicines, hormones (like pregnenolone or tamoxifene or some AI) or some supplements- they have wide, practical and benefitialy properties. As long as they are used wisely.

Fat Bill Dwyer
06-18-2013, 05:25 AM
In both individual and teams sports- its hard to get to the top- but even harder is to stay on top, it is same with AAS- muscles you buid is very hard to maintain and if you not on top of the game- most of it will go away. And is hard to stay on top as life dictates rules.

Also building muscles/losing weight will not have long term effect on ones self-esteem and confidence, it will just slightly improve it.
Saying that, AAS/PHs are very useful in many situations/conditions, and even few cycles are OK as long as some rules are followed.



I think most folks who get into it understand that you'll never be as big/strong/sexy natural as you are enhanced. An impressive physical appearance is just a door opener. It makes men take you more seriously, and women ask you to father their children.

I would argue that the affects on self-esteem are less impermanent than you assert. The ego-boost is just as lasting as the illegitimate children that accompanied it.

-*edit*- Also J I gotta say I love your Avi. You look like a badguy from a Jean-Claude movie.

O_RYAN_007
06-18-2013, 05:29 AM
In both individual and teams sports- its hard to get to the top- but even harder is to stay on top, it is same with AAS- muscles you buid is very hard to maintain and if you not on top of the game- most of it will go away. And is hard to stay on top as life dictates rules.

Once person gets hooked on AAS, rarely they get off. In past people did not agree with me- but there is strong correlation between AAS users and people on TRT, and TRT is not a fan as many would beleive.

Also building muscles/losing weight will not have long term effect on ones self-esteem and confidence, it will just slightly improve it.

Saying that, AAS/PHs are very useful in many situations/conditions, and even few cycles are OK as long as some rules are followed.

Personaly I beleive in Hormonal Optimisation- using simple, basic medicines, hormones (like pregnenolone or tamoxifene or some AI) or some supplements- they have wide, practical and benefitialy properties. As long as they are used wisely.

I'm interested in your take on hormone optimization. Could you give us an example cycle or stack?

olddawg
06-18-2013, 05:46 AM
How long do you plan on living? Realistically, maybe 70 and then your body is useless, maybe 75?? hard to say. I see smokers, fat ones intheir 70's and think their damage has to be way more than the damage i'm causing. I agree with all of what you said Infamy. My view though is quality of life in a shorter time span. Really, with some exceptions, most people's lives are productively over at 60-65. You can continue to develop your mind beyond that barring any mental disorder, or dementia or alzheimers.... So as sad as it makes me, I expect to end my life relatively early, no drawn out battle and dosette full of meds that I can't remember to take. Being huge isn't gonna happen with me as I started too late, but looking like a fuckable fireman without the moustache, yeah baby!

Fat Bill Dwyer
06-18-2013, 05:49 AM
How long do you plan on living? Realistically, maybe 70 and then your body is useless, maybe 75?? hard to say. I see smokers, fat ones intheir 70's and think their damage has to be way more than the damage i'm causing. I agree with all of what you said Infamy. My view though is quality of life in a shorter time span. Really, with some exceptions, most people's lives are productively over at 60-65. You can continue to develop your mind beyond that barring any mental disorder, or dementia or alzheimers.... So as sad as it makes me, I expect to end my life relatively early, no drawn out battle and dosette full of meds that I can't remember to take. Being huge isn't gonna happen with me as I started too late, but looking like a fuckable fireman without the moustache, yeah baby!

Why no mustache?

JM1000
06-18-2013, 05:53 AM
I'm pretty sure drug use and health problems are related to genetics?... Unless of course you are abusing them.

DJM
06-18-2013, 06:34 AM
good to see you infamy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sperwer
06-18-2013, 07:46 AM
In both individual and teams sports- its hard to get to the top- but even harder is to stay on top, it is same with AAS- muscles you buid is very hard to maintain and if you not on top of the game- most of it will go away. And is hard to stay on top as life dictates rules.

Once person gets hooked on AAS, rarely they get off. In past people did not agree with me- but there is strong correlation between AAS users and people on TRT, and TRT is not a fan as many would beleive.

Also building muscles/losing weight will not have long term effect on ones self-esteem and confidence, it will just slightly improve it.

Saying that, AAS/PHs are very useful in many situations/conditions, and even few cycles are OK as long as some rules are followed.

Personaly I beleive in Hormonal Optimisation- using simple, basic medicines, hormones (like pregnenolone or tamoxifene or some AI) or some supplements- they have wide, practical and benefitialy properties. As long as they are used wisely.

I like the sound of hormonal optimization. Unfortunately, I don't believe there are many people qualified to help people with it, particularly (and ironically) even in the so-called medical community. I think my endo is an exception, but then he trained here and in functional medicine in France. Although he put me on TRT - actually continued me on a trt regiment started with another doc, but in a much more considered and deliberate manner - it's always been the plan, once I got up to acceptable levels and sustained them for awhile, to experiment with transitioning to a less blunt approach. Considering that before I started I had numerically insignificant test readings, I have my doubts, but I'm willing to give it a roll. I'd also be interested in hearing your general description of how that might work, bearing in mind that any program would have to be tailored to individual circumstances and that any such description here would have to be quite general given what I assume are the complexities of the bio-chemistry.

Sperwer
06-18-2013, 08:08 AM
How long do you plan on living? Realistically, maybe 70 and then your body is useless, maybe 75?? hard to say. I see smokers, fat ones intheir 70's and think their damage has to be way more than the damage i'm causing. I agree with all of what you said Infamy. My view though is quality of life in a shorter time span. Really, with some exceptions, most people's lives are productively over at 60-65. You can continue to develop your mind beyond that barring any mental disorder, or dementia or alzheimers.... So as sad as it makes me, I expect to end my life relatively early, no drawn out battle and dosette full of meds that I can't remember to take. Being huge isn't gonna happen with me as I started too late, but looking like a fuckable fireman without the moustache, yeah baby!

A legitimate perspective, but very different from mine.

I agree that there are far worse things health-wise than AAS; in fact the majority of the population in most developed countries seem to be engaged in the wholesale destruction of their collective health through, smoking, drinking and atrocious nutrition. In terms of cost/benefit calculations, governments would be better advised to go after the producers of e.g., high fructose corn syrup, than people like Eric. But that's a different rant...

It's on life expectancy that I differ - probably understandably since I'm already well into my 60s, and only started training 6 years ago (precisely because I wanted to do something about what I perceived to be my impending rapid physical degeneration). And this is from someone lucky enough to have some pretty good genetics: my paternal grandfather and father both made it to 75, despite the fact that they smoked heavily (although my Dad quite his 3 pack/day Luckies habit in his mid-forties) and drank moderately to heavily and, in my father's case, had a bad hear valve as a result of having had rheumatic fever as a kid. My mother is still alive, pushing 90 and her 5 brothers and sisters and my grandmother all made it into their late 80s mid nineties. And none of these folks ever did much in the way of exercise or nutrition (although for a good long portion of their lives they also were not eating the sort of garbage food that became such a big part of our diet starting (in a big way) in the 60s. I never smoked, never drank much and have drunk even less for the past 20 years, so with the family history of longevity, I figured I was set. Except that starting around 54-55 I started to feel like crap. Stiff, sore, prone to colds, moody, blue a lot of the time, already starting to get noticeably round and stoop-shouldered, etc., etc. When I finally blew out a couple of lumbar disks for no obvious reason, I decided a change was in order. Once I had recovered sufficiently I started lifting and have been at it ever since. All of the shit that used to ail me has gradually gone away. My goal now is 120 and, on the way, I plan to demolish the records that 90-something is setting in the bench press these days (and I'll do it RAW and (maybe) natural):rolleyes: As far as AAS are concerned, I just regard it as another potential item in the tool box that i'll need to get there, one that I am as unwilling to let get in the way of the larger goal as I am willing to explore what it has to contribute..

Infamy
06-18-2013, 08:19 AM
Are you suggesting that there is no way to use AAS responsibly in a prudent manner as a tool; that they are inherently addictive and harmful, even if not abused? Is the concept of "abuse" even pertinent in your considerations?

Is it safe to say that you don't believe Robby Robinson has been natural for the past 13-14 years since retiring from active competition (as claimed) and that his current condition is res ipsa loquitur evidence of his continued use of gear?

Well, my opinion is "no" there is no safe way to use AAS for muscle building purposes. Note the importance of the highlighted sentence as I do believe that whilst testosterone is clearly an AAS, TRT isn't particularly detrimental to male health if used at correct doses and monitored closely. Even then some men need to stop using TRT due to unpleasant side effects such as prostate hypertrophy, dyslipidemia, carpal tunnel syndrome from water retention, excess estrogen etc etc.

The fact is that when you take enough of substance x to build muscle - it's harmful. Id be happy to be proven wrong and if you can think of an example of any AAS which when taken at muscle building doses doesn't do that. Even testosterone (which is probably one of the safer steroids) at high doses needed to build muscle causes deleterious effects on the human body.

I would say theoretically, if not abused, then possibly the resultant damage may be recoverable given sufficient time off between cycles. But the fact remains, the cycle will cause damage. The amount and severity of the damage is dependant on many factors - amount taken, steroid used, length of time on, age, genetics and diet to name but a few.

in practice, I don't think any bodybuilders have the ability to limit themselves to say, one short cycle every 5 years or something though so I think that question is a redundant one due to human mental frailties.

I'm not familiar with Robby Robinson other than what Ive seen from a quick google search now so it would be unwise for me to pretend I know about what he does and doesnt do. I accept however, that some people are just better than others and will always naturally look better due to good genetics. Although a generalisation, black people do seem to excel at good genetics when it comes to the aesthetics of muscle building so maybe Robby is lucky in that regard. Or maybe he, like many addicts before him, cant and wont admit that he uses due to social stigma and possibly he is in denial.

Jelisej - I do agree that hormone optimisation would be a much safer and better route to go down FWIW (although id never touch tamox!)

OD - Good point. But I guess i'm optimistic that if I live right and take care of my body inside and out then I might still be an active 80 year old. Sure, I wont bench what I can at 80 as I could at 30 but I reckon I could be respectable. And you should reconsider the moustache - they are back in fashion!

DJM - Thanks. Im always around lurking but dont get much time to post what with my job and work and all. Ive just torn a ligament in my calf though so im getting way more sofa hours now that id like though and I have to fill them with something.

JM1000 - Whilst the amount of damage you cause yourself on steroids is in part mediated by genetics (some people just have livers of steel whilst others have livers made of glass), the fact is that damage will occur nevertheless to some extent regardless of how gifted you are genetically speaking if you take them long enough and at high enough doses.

We are now at an age where more people than ever are using steroids. When I was a kid they were something only used by pro BBers and they were hard to get hold of. What the ideal male physique now resembling something out of a comic book more and availability no longer an issue thanks to the internet more people are turning to them. Unfortunately, few of them bother to do their research and many take frankly ludicrous doses (I read about some 160lb kid using over 1.5 grams of tren a week recently! Maybe it was Ippats!).

I mean, how many people reading this know about the deleterious effects of angiotensin II on the epithelial layer of your arteries. How many from that group know which steroids increase Angiotensin II levels? How many still know how to combat those raised Angiotensin II levels?

Or how about something more simple. How many people using gear have a home blood sugar tester and know what their blood sugar usually runs to on an average day. Would you know if you had increased insulin resistance? High glucose levels kill nerve cells, restrict blood supplies which leads to amputations and other horrible side effects. It's a serious thing but I'd wager few out there know or care to check on these things whilst using.

This is just a couple of small examples of the research that anyone taking gear should be doing and know all about before using steroids but the sad fact is that, aside from qualified medical professionals and those with an interest in medicine, virtually no one knows or attempts to do their homework.

The damage caused now is only going to show in decades from now and it's only going to get worse as more and more people turn to them for the ever elusive perfect physique which is always just one more cycle away.

DJM
06-18-2013, 08:47 AM
DJM - Thanks. Im always around lurking but dont get much time to post what with my job and work and all. Ive just torn a ligament in my calf though so im getting way more sofa hours now that id like though and I have to fill them with something.

did that boat ever dock on your end hahaha

Infamy
06-18-2013, 01:14 PM
did that boat ever dock on your end hahaha

Nearly!!

DJM
06-18-2013, 01:15 PM
hahaha

olddawg
06-18-2013, 03:15 PM
Your fkn harbour master over there really sucks!! lol

Jelisej
06-18-2013, 05:47 PM
I agree with Infamy's last post, and I'll give my input (FWIW).
There is saying "Guns dont kill people- people with guns kill people"-same goes with AAS/PH's/hormones- every medicine is a poison and every poison is medicine, depending on dosage and circumstances, and AAS/PH's and hormones could be used for variety of conditions (and reasons), it just happens that for lot of people it ends up to be weapon of their own destruction.

Take wild animals- even if domesticized they will never become overweight, as they will eat as much as they need, no more no less.
Hormonal optimization is the same- take what you need and how much you need. To know what you need you need to observe symptoms and do some test, and how much you need you'll know by same principles.
Sometimes things can be fix by changing lifestyle, sometimes some basic supplements are needed, sometimes bit more complicated like "restart protocol", sometimes its HRT.
Important thing is to look at bigger picture- and not at just one segment which is the way most of people do.

pman42
06-18-2013, 10:51 PM
This is a very, very interesting topic and one which I was going to post about one of these days. glad someone started this

i think there are some valid points made. a person will go back to a lower level of development once off the AAS. but some results may be semi-permanent: American Physiological Society > Anabolic Steroids Still Provide a Competitive Edge in Power Lifting Even Years After Doping Has Ended
(http://www.the-aps.org/mm/hp/Audiences/Public-Press/For-the-Press/releases/Archive/08/30.html)

there is no question that i am at a higher level of development than i would be without them. are the effects permanent? for me only time will tell.

as for the health effects, i believe the body is fairly adaptable and forgiving, but AAS are not as safe as some make them out to be. sure it's true that "there's worse things i could be doing" but you can really justify anything that way. even in prison the murderers are in a higher class than the child rapists. for my own case, i wish i had a baseline hormone panel before starting anything, but i am relatively certain that i had low testosterone before ever using PHs.

it's definitely true that PEDs can be addictive. i've been on cycle, planning out my next one or thinking, "i'll just stay on pheraplex for 3 months, what's the worse that can happen?" thankfully my logical head prevailed. you have to know yourself and have a certain level of maturity. an example is when i was younger i had a serious problem with alcohol and would drink every day, all day. once i saw how out of control it had become (with the help of some friends and family) i was able to step back and say, perhaps alcohol is not the drug for me. i'm not able to just have 1 beer, so now i don't drink. i don't whine about my disease or whatnot (not knocking people who do the AA thing, just that it;s not for me) i just don't drink because i know that i have control over not drinking but once i do drink all bets are off. same thing for AAS, if you spend all you money and time on drugs and the gym your life is probably unbalanced and you are pushing yourself to an early grave. but if you have the control to use a couple short cycles per year with adequate support and PCT then is it going to have a hugely detrimental effect? more than pounding back a case of beer every weekend like some guys? i'm not sure. somewhere there was a study (it might have been more of a sociological survey) that found AAS to be less detrimental than commonly abused drugs like nicotine and alcohol. but again, it's the individual. for me cigarettes are no big deal because i can smoke 2 when i drink too much coffee then say, "this is gross fuck this shit." but some will smoke until death.

my rambling point is that i still have not arrived at the definitive conclusion for myself. i hear the siren song of AAS calling, but mostly i can pacify it with natural training. for now at least

Jelisej
06-19-2013, 02:53 AM
This is a very, very interesting topic and one which I was going to post about one of these days. glad someone started this
if you spend all you money and time on drugs and the gym your life is probably unbalanced and you are pushing yourself to an early grave. but if you have the control to use a couple short cycles per year with adequate support and PCT then is it going to have a hugely detrimental effect? more than pounding back a case of beer every weekend like some guys? i'm not sure. somewhere there was a study (it might have been more of a sociological survey) that found AAS to be less detrimental than commonly abused drugs like nicotine and alcohol. but again, it's the individual. for me cigarettes are no big deal because i can smoke 2 when i drink too much coffee then say, "this is gross fuck this shit." but some will smoke until death.

my rambling point is that i still have not arrived at the definitive conclusion for myself. i hear the siren song of AAS calling, but mostly i can pacify it with natural training. for now at least

Name of thread you started earlier this year: "Depressed as Fuck-- blood test results"

Infamy
06-19-2013, 04:24 AM
Your fkn harbour master over there really sucks!! lol

Yeah, I think he may be Canadian...

Infamy
06-19-2013, 04:31 AM
Pman, interesting article. I hadnt seen that before so thanks for sharing.

What is interesting though is that it was nucleus number which remained increased which although very useful for having the potential to gain more muscle and also helping with strength, it probably doesnt actually show up much physically and since aesthetics are the name of BBing it goes back to the look of the individual, post steroids, being smaller and fatter. I guess it is some comfort to know that I am probably stronger than I would have been had I never touched gear though.

You know, it's funny, ask anyone who has used gear for a number of years and then stopped or reduced their intake and they all say the same thing to someone who hasn't touched gear: "dont do it - you are better off without it". I think it is better to never have opened the Pandora's box that is steroids at all personally but you live and learn.

Sperwer
06-19-2013, 04:34 AM
Well, my opinion is "no" there is no safe way to use AAS for muscle building purposes. Note the importance of the highlighted sentence as I do believe that whilst testosterone is clearly an AAS, TRT isn't particularly detrimental to male health if used at correct doses and monitored closely. Even then some men need to stop using TRT due to unpleasant side effects such as prostate hypertrophy, dyslipidemia, carpal tunnel syndrome from water retention, excess estrogen etc etc.
The fact is that when you take enough of substance x to build muscle - it's harmful. Id be happy to be proven wrong and if you can think of an example of any AAS which when taken at muscle building doses doesn't do that. Even testosterone (which is probably one of the safer steroids) at high doses needed to build muscle causes deleterious effects on the human body.

I would say theoretically, if not abused, then possibly the resultant damage may be recoverable given sufficient time off between cycles. But the fact remains, the cycle will cause damage. The amount and severity of the damage is dependant on many factors - amount taken, steroid used, length of time on, age, genetics and diet to name but a few.

in practice, I don't think any bodybuilders have the ability to limit themselves to say, one short cycle every 5 years or something though so I think that question is a redundant one due to human mental frailties.

...
I mean, how many people reading this know about the deleterious effects of angiotensin II on the epithelial layer of your arteries. How many from that group know which steroids increase Angiotensin II levels? How many still know how to combat those raised Angiotensin II levels?

Or how about something more simple. How many people using gear have a home blood sugar tester and know what their blood sugar usually runs to on an average day. Would you know if you had increased insulin resistance? High glucose levels kill nerve cells, restrict blood supplies which leads to amputations and other horrible side effects. It's a serious thing but I'd wager few out there know or care to check on these things whilst using.

This is just a couple of small examples of the research that anyone taking gear should be doing and know all about before using steroids but the sad fact is that, aside from qualified medical professionals and those with an interest in medicine, virtually no one knows or attempts to do their homework.

...



I understand the qualification and its importance, but what falls into the category of "muscle building purposes".

Obviously, I guess, the creation of the sort of escaped-Jurassic Park-attraction type of physique characteristic of contemporary professional body builders and wannabes. (And while I agree that the number of the latter has increased - well, so has the population. Has there been a real % increase. Moreover, I'm prepared to believe that there has been a small % increase, but I also think it is likely minor in relation to the number of people who have taken up the sport and that it is pretty much limited to Euro-America. There are serious gear head here in Asia, but their numbers are really small, and the ideal male physique is NOT the Bodybuilder blow-up doll - a six pack is de rigeur but the overall body profile is a very lean one, barely fitness model by Euro-American standards.)

But what about more modest endeavors than emulating the pros. I, e.g., have no interest in looking like those guys, or even most of their predecessors from the past 50 years since Arnold became the poster boy for size over form (with the possible exceptions of Frank Zane and Robby Robinson, neither of whom, I am very much aware, I'm ever going to come close to - a fact with which I'm quite comfortable). Nevertheless, I have wanted and continue to desire to improve both the size and especially the definition of my musculature (and to improve my flexibility and mobility - which is something of a combination rescue mission/rear-guard action given my (unrelated) injury history, past failures to deal effectively with the results and my age). In that pursuit, I've replaced about 50 pounds of fat with 35 pounds of muscle over the past six years; various muscles are now measurably larger; and I've got a fair amount of definition, including in the legs (although they are lagging in this regard). In the process of doing so I've done a 4-5 PH cycles, and am now doing a parabolan run, my first ever AAS. Constantly improving nutrition and ever more consistent training have been the essential foundations of my progress, and I've made really dramatic strides recently as a result of working with a coach who has rigorously corrected my form and drilled me in doing it right. But it's also clear that the PH cycles contributed and that the Tren run is having an impact now. And while it's also the case that substantial amounts of the gains from each cycle rather quickly dissipated, because of imo the post-cycle psychological and training let-up as much if not more the removal of the anabolic promoter, there has been a noticeable - rather dramatic, I'd say - preservation and cumulation of the gains. Moreover, just as there are countermeasures for the potential side effects of TRT, there are on-cycle and post-cycle therapies for the sides associated with PHs and AAS, the latter of which in my admittedly picayune experience are dramatically fewer and less intense than those associated w/ PHs. True, as you say, not everyone adequately understands and appreciates even the known physical risks, including the overwhelming majority of ostensibly qualified medical practitioners who are no less likely to simply parrot the the pet phrases of the anti-steroid inquisitors than the average suburban mom of a jacked up high school football player. But if that is the driving criterion for whether to use or not, and especially for government regulation, then in the latter case there are far larger and individually and especially socially more important targets for regulation (alcohol anyone?)see the Dutch Institute of Health study, Adverse health effects of anabolic–androgenic steroids, at http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.bbr.2011.03.031: "The dependence liability of AAS is very low, and withdrawal effects are relatively mild. Based on the scores for acute and chronic adverse health effects, the prevalence of use, social harm and criminality, AAS were ranked among 19 illicit drugs as a group of drugs with a relatively low harm"), and we are well into a nanny state that I prefer to have as little to do with as possible (even at soem significant 'cost" to myself).

Fat Bill Dwyer
06-19-2013, 06:16 AM
I agree with Infamy's last post, and I'll give my input (FWIW).
There is saying "Guns dont kill people- people with guns kill people"-same goes with AAS/PH's/hormones- every medicine is a poison and every poison is medicine, depending on dosage and circumstances, and AAS/PH's and hormones could be used for variety of conditions (and reasons)

^Yup.

I would also like to add that if you are healthy, you will not become more healthy, and it is quite likely you will become less healthy by taking a bunch of medicine. If you don't believe this to be true you're lying to yourself.

However people regularly sacrafice health for a variety of trivial things, so who really cares if you do it for the sake of a certain aesthetic?

olddawg
06-19-2013, 06:29 AM
My struggle is with the balance of longevity vs quality of life. why do we take any meds, or even make ourselves look presentable for that matter. currently, and I say that as my view changes over the years, i believe that if i lived to 90, i would be simply waking up, reading the paper, making a sandwich, maybe taking a walk and then watching tv until i do it all again the next day. If one could have the same quality of life until 90, and not only that but most importantly have life with a purpose, then it'd be great to live that long. I guess I may either have experienced too much or maybe i'm just getting tired but it's tough for me to believe that i'll be productive into my latter years. Living longer simply to follow a routine wouldn't interest me, i would rather burn the motor our earlier in the race and lead for the whole race while i was racing. I don't know, maybe that's not a healthy viewpoint, but feeling good, looking good, and doing something good are all focuses for me until my body disintegrates upon re-entering the atmosphere. I suppose because I have already expressed diabetes, and thyroid issues, i expect other things to give in earlier rather than later. Don't know. I shave my face not for myself, but others, shave my eyebrows for the same reason lol (trim), wear nice clothes, act in a pleasant manner for others 'cause god I prefer just being honest lol, so to me aas are just another beautifying agent. I've accepted death and am ready at any time. it's not in my control, and what I do know is that I only have today because I woke up. Tomorrow may not come for me, so I won't gamble on it.

Jelisej
06-19-2013, 06:57 AM
OD, I share your view. Tha fact is that adding hormones add to quality of life in every aspect but it shortens life span. This fact is what made me start my own self-medication journey. I would rather live shorter but more quality life.
Saying that- AAS dont really improve quality of life permanently.

Deep down- I'm an alchemist, I tried loads of stuff and nothing feels better than when you tune your hormones- that sense of wellbeing, its like you're on fucking cocaine. Tremendous. Fantastic. Fan-dabby-dozy-tastic.

olddawg
06-19-2013, 07:06 AM
never tried coke, but like an orgasm i guess right? lol It's just that I see healthy people dying in their 30's, 40's 50's, runners, clean eaters, etc....For me, I really think Infamy's question is deeper than just damaging your body and keeping gains (not to say that this is all you guys are talking about) but it is about engineering your journey so to speak, going full out while you are in the race, taking no prisoners and enjoying a fulfilling time on the planet. I personally believe that there is no afterlife as humans try to explain it either through physics (energy) or spirit. Once you die, bye bye.

Jelisej
06-19-2013, 07:34 AM
never tried coke, but like an orgasm i guess right? lol It's just that I see healthy people dying in their 30's, 40's 50's, runners, clean eaters, etc....For me, I really think Infamy's question is deeper than just damaging your body and keeping gains (not to say that this is all you guys are talking about) but it is about engineering your journey so to speak, going full out while you are in the race, taking no prisoners and enjoying a fulfilling time on the planet. I personally believe that there is no afterlife as humans try to explain it either through physics (energy) or spirit. Once you die, bye bye.

I concur.

Sperwer
06-19-2013, 07:47 AM
Life is a risk; a good life is a calculated disk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Infamy
06-19-2013, 08:57 AM
I just wanted to point out that the purpose of my question wasn't to vilify anyone taking AAS, rather to question whether they were worthwhile when benefit is compared to risk.

I fully believe in freedom of choice and if you decide that steroids are right for you and what you want from life then I respect that completely and wouldnt want any legislation stopping you from living in that way. On the flip side, I also would have no sympathy for someone who, when exercising that freedom, messed themselves up due to misuse or abuse. You pays your money and you takes your choice!

The question of addiction of AAS is an interesting one. I agree that chemically, they aren't particularly addictive. Cocaine, heroin and even alcohol have more of a chemical addiction that gear. But I do believe strongly that the possess a very high potential for mental addiction. What I mean by this is you take them and you look better. You stop them and you don't look as good as you did whilst taking them so you take some more. Time between cycles shortens until cycles turn into one big continuous cycle and then one day you realise that you have such a mental addiction to them that you really would suffer mentally were you to stop as you perceive your body to get fatter and smaller without them.

A quick glance through any forum shows that there is a worrying amount of younger guys who have no self control over their use. Im sure all of use know some internet buddy or real life one who uses more than you could really think is sensible. Ippats is a good example here!

After a number of years searching for that elusive perfect body though I have come to accept that I simply cant look good 24-7-365 without taking something 365 days a year but that the detriment to my health simply and life by doing this simply isnt worth it for me. Many reading this may disagree and think it is worth it.

I also think that for some people maybe there is an argument for recreational use if it can be controlled and monitored. I think this may be what OD is getting at and maybe Sperwer. I find it hard to argue against it when drinking alcohol or having that takeaway is bad for you but you do it because you feel better for doing it (myself included). The damage you cause is repairable if you dont abuse the substance like alcohol or takeaways and in the same way if you can limit your cycle to say something moderate once every few years and plenty of time off between cycles then some may argue there is little difference between the two. The difficulty is having the will power to resist cycling more often and that is the crux.

I need to make it clear that my position hasn't changed, if you take AAS at muscle building doses then you are going to do yourself harm. For the individual though they may consider that harm acceptable when compared to other pursuits that others may do which also cause them harm (e.g. drinking or recreational cocaine use etc).

I wouldn't totally rule out using AAS again if there was a particular purpose for looking better or being bigger e.g. my wedding day. In those cases I think the damage may be justified and I may be able to recover sufficiently but I think my days of using just to get bigger or stronger for no particular reason than because I want to are gone.

I hope that my question here might lead some of you to question your use of AAS personally and whether your use is under your control or whether your use controls you.

Fat Bill Dwyer
06-19-2013, 09:33 AM
I hope that my question here might lead some of you to question your use of AAS personally and whether your use is under your control or whether your use controls you.

You're preaching the WORD now brother, and I got to say I feel a bit convicted. Not a gear guy myself, but I've ran a few "Dietary Supplements."

IMHO the guys who are most at risk are the guys who are already so deeply into it that they will not be honest with themselves.

Once you are so wrapped up in it that it becomes part of your identity e.g. "I am the strong/sexy guy at work" or "I am the smart/experienced gear guy on the internet" it is very difficult to let go of. That you are able to do this speaks volumes about your discipline and honesty.

I know that I'm NEVER willingly going back to being small. It is too awesome to be able to influence other people's behavior just because of the way I look. It is too awesome to be default IN the club, than default out. I like being the victim of sexual harrassment from girls much younger than me.

Of course I will rationalize this by saying I've never run illegal AAS, and that I only do two 6-8 weekers a year, and that I can control it, but obviously eventually I'll want to get bigger and stronger.

You know what? Fuck all of ^that. I'm fine, and I refuse to think about it again until I'm snorting Superdrol off of Ippy's semi-erect penis.

Freepressright
06-19-2013, 09:35 AM
My simple, but relevant response.

Argument: When you stop using gear, eventually your gains will disappear and subside over time.

Counter-point: When you haven't used gear and deviate from a solid training regime to life as a non-trainer/non-lifter, your gains subside over time, and you might even one day look nothing like you ever lifted the first weight.

My conclusion: In either case, it all comes down to how hard you work on the maintenance angle.

burlyman30
06-19-2013, 09:39 AM
I refuse to think about it again until I'm snorting Superdrol off of Ippy's semi-erect penis...again

/fixed

h2s
06-19-2013, 09:40 AM
First and Foremost, welcome back Infamy. I can't express how happy I am to see you back here (and even know you have been lurking during this time).

I also want to say that this has been a very interesting thread and a very interesting topic. I too have asked myself the same question. As I progress towards my goals, I continually become more and more dissatisfied. I am currently sitting at about 198 with visible (although not razer cut abs). Years ago this would have been my ideal. Now, I am not big enough, not cut enough, etc..

Over time, there is a tendency I notice to trying more compounds, trying larger doses, etc.. Spinning into a cocktail of support medications, add another compound to decrease this side, etc.. It does become a bit much lately. Unfortunately, I have also learned, the more you 'know' through research, the more you want to try, a false sense of security presented when you consider risks not commonly discussed or understood by users.

With that said, I still will cycle, and I am completely at ease with that. Sure the results are temporary. I have come to fully believe that. We can look back through my post history and see numerous times where someone complained about losing size or gaining fat after PCT, and I blamed their diet, their exercise patters, their sleep, etc.. The fact of the matter is, you push your body into a non-natural state, and when it is no longer forced it will bounce back, I have seen it in myself, and I have seen it in many others. However, the results that I have seen have made me quite happy. I feel amazing. I love the positive reaction I receive from people who I have not seen in awhile (just the other day I was at a concert and ran into someone I haven't seen in 10 years, he could not stop mentioning how great I look). I love the reaction I receive from women. I love knowing other guys look at me either as something they want to achieve or bitterness towards I can do what they don't have the dedication for. Honestly, I love the days I am purposely late to a night out, so I can consume my targeted meals and join the group after they ate the food out I did not want to eat.

I love the dedication that I have seen in myself since starting steroids. Sure, one could have the same discipline as a natural, but I know I wouldn't. The results will plateau much faster, progress will halt, frustration will ensue, and quitting would be inevitable. I truely believe this sport requires the drugs. I know that is a controversial statement, especially in this crowd, but it is a fact to me, not an opinion (yes, I realize it is an actual opinion, I am just stating my strong conviction).

I enjoy what steroids have done for my life. If it shortens it slightly, I can die happy knowing I had a life I enjoy (for a million reasons beyond just steroids). I do go out and drink. I have used recreational drugs. I am an off and on smoker (although that one is just stupid). Life is about taking risks. I can easily live a life doing everything that will extend my life and nothing that will shorten it, but then one day I will be quite old, still alive, and thinking back about how I had not enjoyed myself during a time I should have because I was too worried about getting to my current age.


Please don't take this as an argument, just sharing my view. Welcome back x 1000!

Fat Bill Dwyer
06-19-2013, 09:40 AM
/fixed

I told you that in confidence!

pman42
06-19-2013, 09:52 AM
Name of thread you started earlier this year: "Depressed as Fuck-- blood test results"
Yes but like I said, I believe those numbers predated PH usage. looking back i think this is why i felt so good on PHs, that they were in effect a sort of TRT

burlyman30
06-19-2013, 10:03 AM
I'll weigh in for a moment. So I've used gear when I was younger, but when the time came for me to decide my competitive BBing future, I chose to leave the drugs behind because although I was qualified to go to the Nationals, I KNEW what being competitive at the Nationals would actually take. A whole lot of drugs for and extended period of time. And I considered "and what would happen at Nationals? The genetic superiors who were on drugs would STILL win." That was the day I retired from competition and stopped the drugs, as I knew where it would lead-- to no career or money and to an abbreviated life. I slowly and eventually lost the motivation to go to the gym, as competition had become my motivator. My body shrunk 50 lbs to a lean 150 and I looked on the slender side of average.

Fast forward many years (though I had some in between years dabbling with cattle pellets in the mid-90s) and I started working out again to address my mental stress. The body responded. In my online search for supplements, imagine my surprise when I found PHs that actually worked and were legal. Though methyls are obviously harder on the health than injectables in many ways, I was able to limit myself to usually between 2-3 moderate length cycles a year. When the doc wanted to put me on Lipitor for my cholesterol, I had to rethink my motivations. Laying off the orals for over a year and eating better, I was able to manage my cholesterol better.

And now I'm in a place I thought I never would be... dabbling with gear for the first time in over 20 years. Sure, there's some psychological addictiveness to it, though I would like to think I manage the risks through either low doses or short bursts of usage. I won't try to convince anyone that there are no risks. There is risk in everything we do each day (i.e., driving to work, crossing the street, etc.) but steps can be taken to reduce some of that risk. I think if someone is willing to be honest with themselves, they have to know that putting large amounts of unnatural hormones into the body will do some harm. To think otherwise would be naive or ignorant. Even with the regular blood tests I get, I know that those don't tell the whole story. They don't tell me if my left ventricle is enlarged, for example. They are only partial indicators. The rest is a bit of guesswork and I have to use my judgement, which, as an imperfect human, is destined to be flawed at some level.

burlyman30
06-19-2013, 10:08 AM
Yes but like I said, I believe those numbers predated PH usage. looking back i think this is why i felt so good on PHs, that they were in effect a sort of TRT

The same thing happened to me. Started with low testosterone, PHs made me feel amazing in comparison to my norm.

Grape Ape
06-19-2013, 10:08 AM
I can relate to the addiction side. Before I knew I was taking a PH, I was taking a PH. I didn't know what PCT was at first, and after a while things caught up with me. I'd say I lost 85-90% of gains made from any PH cycle/abuse. The last 2 year's though, I corrected 90% of all my issues, and spent a large time Natty. I have run light cycles IE: The stanodrol/dermacrine I am on now. However, I don't plan on going back any time soon, and maybe only one cycle a year.

I can say, if it wasn't for the immediate results of PH's, I may have never stuck with this sport.

I contribute 80-90% of my gains to natural hard work, research and dedication. I even feel I lost a year with little gains do to the PH use or discontinuation of. I never felt better than my Natty bulk this year, and it was absolutely awesome.

Jelisej
06-19-2013, 06:30 PM
The same thing happened to me. Started with low testosterone, PHs made me feel amazing in comparison to my norm.

"I seem to remember something in the 700s back in my youth. I got tested back after some cycling when I was 19. Back when hCG was considered PCT. "

Thats decent number, so you must have some other issues than low testosterone. it is actually very difficult (almost impossible) to tell where test. levels are, so it must have been something else.

Jelisej
06-19-2013, 07:02 PM
Yes but like I said, I believe those numbers predated PH usage. looking back i think this is why i felt so good on PHs, that they were in effect a sort of TRT

The Web of Lies: Excuses We Tell Ourselves and Others to Justify Addiction. | The Rehab Guide Blog (http://rehabguide.wordpress.com/2010/10/14/the-web-of-lies-excuses-we-tell-ourselves-and-others-to-justify-addiction/)

olddawg
06-19-2013, 07:08 PM
So Infamy, in light of the evidence brought forth in this discussion, we can draw this conclusion. Stay on.

burlyman30
06-19-2013, 07:21 PM
"I seem to remember something in the 700s back in my youth. I got tested back after some cycling when I was 19. Back when hCG was considered PCT. "

Thats decent number, so you must have some other issues than low testosterone. it is actually very difficult (almost impossible) to tell where test. levels are, so it must have been something else.

Maybe I wasn't clear or you misunderstood. I know I didn't have low testosterone in my youth. It began in my early to mid 30s. All the indicators were there. I think when I was about 39 or 40 I got tested again at around 300. Reference low range on that test was 250, so doc said " you're fine" and sent me packing. I could be a bit off on the numbers, but I remember it was within about 50 points of the low. I never used PHs until I was 40-41. They definitely gave me a bit back of what I had been missing hormonally. That being said, I never used them for that purpose. It was a side effect. I just wanted to tip the anabolic scale in my favor a bit.

milehighguy
06-19-2013, 07:28 PM
A quick glance through any forum shows that there is a worrying amount of younger guys who have no self control over their use. Im sure all of use know some internet buddy or real life one who uses more than you could really think is sensible.

This is troublesome to me...I'm showing my age a bit but I am glad that these PH's and gear were not available via the internet when I was younger. Today's kids have access to so much and I'm sure most do not take the time to read and take all precautions possible. They just want to be big and bad and will do whatever it takes. When I think about my health I am glad that I was stupid enough to think the guys in the magazines were natural until I was 24 or so... Not that doing gear when your older is any better for your health but staying totally natural for so long some how makes me feel better. Some of these young guys are going to have hard on problems (among others) in their 20's early 30's when they should be going strong. Using harder stuff or a methyl PH without the support. JMHO


Great thread Infamy

olddawg
06-20-2013, 05:24 AM
I had a mother of an 18 year old call me last night and ask about this Nolvadex cause she found a syringe in her kids pants in the wash. the kid was skinny as a rail, now she says he's huge, bloated face etc....I facebooked him to see if I could help and he has done an 8 week cycle, test e at 250 e 3 days with a 4 week winny kicker. he is trying to gain not cut. All advice was from another 18 year old buddy in the gym. he's ready to start the nolva on sat as his last injection is on Sat. he knows nothing at all (about the effects of steroids, or how to recover, bp, etc...) and just got a buddy to help him out.

BoneDaddy
06-20-2013, 05:26 AM
I had a mother of an 18 year old call me last night and ask about this Nolvadex cause she found a syringe in her kids pants in the wash. the kid was skinny as a rail, now she says he's huge, bloated face etc....I facebooked him to see if I could help and he has done an 8 week cycle, test e at 250 e 3 days with a 4 week winny kicker. he is trying to gain not cut. All advice was from another 18 year old buddy in the gym. he's ready to start the nolva on sat as his last injection is on Sat. he knows nothing at all (about the effects of steroids, or how to recover, bp, etc...) and just got a buddy to help him out.

Was Ippy on his friends list?

olddawg
06-20-2013, 06:15 AM
Fk, this kid is a very good kid, just not too bright, wants to be big now. I've been messaging him all am trying to give him some real info. (Getting him on a tren/EQ/dbol/proviron cycle or whatever ippy did lol jk)

Fat Bill Dwyer
06-20-2013, 06:15 AM
I had a mother of an 18 year old call me last night and ask about this Nolvadex cause she found a syringe in her kids pants in the wash. the kid was skinny as a rail, now she says he's huge, bloated face etc....I facebooked him to see if I could help and he has done an 8 week cycle, test e at 250 e 3 days with a 4 week winny kicker. he is trying to gain not cut. All advice was from another 18 year old buddy in the gym. he's ready to start the nolva on sat as his last injection is on Sat. he knows nothing at all (about the effects of steroids, or how to recover, bp, etc...) and just got a buddy to help him out.

^This doesn't sound nearly as bad as a lot of the PH/DS cycle 18 year olds run. (even with the f'ed up PCT, and probable misunderstanding of winny)

olddawg
06-20-2013, 06:29 AM
You're right, I've still not ran that much test yet lol

BoneDaddy
06-20-2013, 08:24 AM
Fk, this kid is a very good kid, just not too bright, wants to be big now. I've been messaging him all am trying to give him some real info. (Getting him on a tren/EQ/dbol/proviron cycle or whatever ippy did lol jk)

Make sure you source him those magic pins, too.

burlyman30
06-20-2013, 08:31 AM
Make sure you source him those magic pins, too.

I had to chuckle... the way he talked it was like a fairy tale.... he lived in a place where pins were magic, tren was like candy, and SD was spicy candy. What a great place that sounds like. Please send me two tickets. I want to live there too!

nate3993
06-20-2013, 03:00 PM
^This doesn't sound nearly as bad as a lot of the PH/DS cycle 18 year olds run. (even with the f'ed up PCT, and probable misunderstanding of winny)


i talked to someone, skinny as fuuuuuuuuuk, who was on trimethyl x. which was phera, superdrol, and i halo i think? anyway, was drinking heavily every weekend, and then said he just randomly started to throw up, so he stopped after just a couple weeks. i told him about how he could've fukin killed himself, and he should realize how lucky he really is.

markam
06-21-2013, 06:05 AM
I managed to post this in the wrong thread (that's what you get by having too many windows open). Anyway, not wanting to incur the wrath of Jelisej, I'll repost it here.

I never used any 'stuff' before I was 48. I would be happy to see all OTC prohormones, designer steroids banned for anyone under twenty five. As well as possible health issues, they can be addictive for many people. Obviously people will source stuff if they really want to, but it's just too easy for some 16 year old kid to buy SD etc (I'm in the UK) with devastating consequences.

I can easily buy M1T, MDIEN, SD, etc from a online UK website, (not that I have), and the seller should've at least make an effort to verify the age of the person ordering, imo. I understand this could be easily got around, but it would show the seriousness of these compounds.

Alright, off to have some 'spicy candy'. LOL

Fat Bill Dwyer
06-21-2013, 07:23 AM
I never used any 'stuff' before I was 48. I would be happy to see all OTC prohormones, designer steroids banned for anyone under twenty five. As well as possible health issues, they can be addictive for many people. Alright, off to have some 'spicy candy'. LOL

That's not a very 'murican thing to say. Enjoy your delicious UK spicy candy.

Infamy
07-02-2013, 12:02 PM
Interesting comments guys. I think it is a testament to this forum that a thread like this provokes reasonable and mature debate. Could you imagine the comments i'd get if this was on elite fitness?!

I thought I would leave you with this sobering through which kind of prompted my current thoughts on AAS. Last year I did a tren cycle. I was about 10 weeks or so into it and I noticed that my urine was really, really frothy. Not just a little but there was a head of foam about an inch or so thick on it. Well, my immediate worry was that it was proteinuria (basically irreparable kidney damage for those not medically minded).

Not surprisingly this was a horrible thought. So I stopped the tren pretty quickly and got myself an appointment at the docs for a full kidney analysis. Unfortunately for me, there was a wait for the appointment of about 2 weeks. During that time my mind went into overdrive - What if id irreparably damaged my kidneys and all because I was vain? To make matters worse, if I had kidney failure those hard earned gains would all be lost and more besides. Not to mention the regular dialysis and being put on a waiting list for a kidney at 35. I saw my whole world fall apart in a matter of weeks as I realised what I might have done to myself.

Anyway, you get the picture but after 2 weeks I had my appointment and to my surprise the kidney function tests were all totally clear and everything was working perfectly fine. So I hadnt done any damage to my kidneys but I confess I still dont know what caused all that foam.

My point is that before you start taking 1g a week of tren or some other exotic anabolic, just consider what you would do if you were told that you had irreparably damaged one of your organs.

I think I should finish by saying that this topic wasn't really intended as a lecture that you shouldn't do steroids - rather for you to consider whether your use was reasonable and justified. e.g. if you do one cycle a year and give your body plenty of time to recover maybe you could justify the cycle as being no worse than someone who smokes or drinks heavily (albeit that heavy drinkers and smokers tend not to quit for 6 months of the year so maybe some would say those habits are worse). If on the other hand you use 1g of tren a week combined with 200mg of winstrol and you never come off, that may be more difficult to justify.

Freepressright
07-02-2013, 12:13 PM
It's been a great topic to sit back and watch. Thank you for sharing your experience so that the rest of us may think things through.

milehighguy
07-02-2013, 08:57 PM
^^^ this

Infamy...you jumping on the wagon or just reducing usage?

burlyman30
07-02-2013, 09:37 PM
^^^ this

Infamy...you jumping on the wagon or just reducing usage?

I'd say he's growing up and looking at the long term picture. :thumbup:

olddawg
07-03-2013, 06:12 AM
Always deep thought provoking posts from Brother Infamy and you've likely opened the minds of hundreds of users which may have not been previously open. I'd suggest that instead of cutting your aas for the frothy urine, stop drinking all that beer. Just sayin.

DJM
07-03-2013, 06:55 AM
jm1000 needs to read this, just caught the last bit of his log lol

Infamy
07-04-2013, 01:23 AM
^^^ this

Infamy...you jumping on the wagon or just reducing usage?

I'd like to say I'm stopping cold turkey but the honest truth is I have an element of addiction to it. I realise they affect my health negatively but I still do feel tempted to use them when my body isn't looking quite as I want it to.

Things are exacerbated at the moment as I have a torn calf and I know tren and anavar will fix me up quickly compared to leaving things natural.

That said I'm still clean and have been for about 7-8 months and aside from my wedding next year when I plan to run a cut I have no plans to use again. If I do though I guarantee my doses will be more like Burlys - lowest possible dose to get the good effects and no more 400mg a week of tren.

weekend
07-04-2013, 01:29 AM
why not just drop the tren forever?! go for something more natural?

Infamy
07-04-2013, 01:43 AM
Good question. Logically that would make a lot of sense but this is where I realise that I have something of an addiction because whilst tren is nasty particularly at high dosss, the fact is, tren is the best steroid. Period. Whether you want size, strength or fat loss it can do it all and excels at all if them.

Like I said though I think my doses in the past have been too high and I reckon I can get similar ones with much lower doses. I think 100 or even 50mg a week of tren e would still get you looking good.

Hopefully though I can stay away for the foreseeable future but I'm honest enough with myself to know that I can't promise ill never use them again,


why not just drop the tren forever?! go for something more natural?

burlyman30
07-04-2013, 10:48 AM
I think the "point", as posed in the thread's question... is balance.

We can do a lot of harmful or risky things that have nothing to with AAS. Heavy drinking is bad for you. Driving drunk is risky for you and others, running with scissors in your hand is a big no-no according to my mom and so is going outside without a hat to keep the cold away. Think of all the stupid things you did as a kid and you are still here to talk about it. BB or pellet gun fights, anyone? I think the fact that we survived our own childhood is the largest factor in the false belief of our invincibility when it comes to things like steroid usage.

We can do damage with AAS, for sure. Most of the time, those are longer term cardiovascular effects rather than immediate except for acute liver toxicity. At the same time, we could lose our life driving to the movies.

I think one needs to consider the risks and long term effects, and from there make choices about how you would prefer your life to be in 20, 30, and 40 years.

If you look at all the pro BBers after they retire, they either stop usage or severely curtail it. They shrink back to a body that is better than average, but not BBing ready by most standards. They've done enough drugs for a long enough period to know they can't keep it up forever. And they clean up, or mostly do, in order to preserve the second half of their lives or at least to take themselves out of a more pressing immediate health situation.

Balance, as I mentioned in the beginning, is being able to consider immediate and long term effects of the drugs and use them in a way that is intermittent enough to keep the risk factor low enough that we can live with it. And still live with it 20, 30, or more years from now.

milehighguy
07-04-2013, 04:58 PM
Great point of view Burly...

Infamy has made everyone think twice with this thread. At least it should make you think twice....

Needless to say I continue to be intrigued with tren . But, I think I can honestly say I would not go nearly as high as some do dosage wise.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 4 Beta

burlyman30
07-04-2013, 06:12 PM
Great point of view Burly...

Infamy has made everyone think twice with this thread. At least it should make you think twice....

Needless to say I continue to be intrigued with tren . But, I think I can honestly say I would not go nearly as high as some do dosage wise.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Indeed, between the health and the legal aspects, one should think twice or three times prior to pursuit and usage of these compounds.

As far as tren goes... a little can go a long way, in my humble opinion. But to be honest, I think that way about all anabolic compounds. I don't fall into the "more is better" trap. Rather, I like to tip the anabolic scale in my favor just enough to make the gains I otherwise couldn't make. This means my doses are low, my sides are low, and my gains will be noticeable to me even if they aren't noticeable to others. "Slow and steady" is better than "fast, but sidelined with injuries".

Sperwer
07-04-2013, 10:20 PM
Indeed, between the health and the legal aspects, one should think twice or three times prior to pursuit and usage of these compounds.

As far as tren goes... a little can go a long way, .

Since there has been a lot of talk of tren here, I thought it might be an appropriate place to pose this question: Are there lingering anabolic effects after discontinuation. I did a short run of 50, 100, 200 then 300 for a few weeks. Stopped about ten days ago. while on, I was cutting for a contest, and the tren visibly aided the cut and the preservation of mass despite the cut. After the contest I started UD 2.0 and have been on less than 30 grams of carbs/day for most of this week. I started ramping up the carbs per the recommended cycle Wednesday evening and have been doing pretty heavy workouts since, mainly concentrating on one muscle group but also doing some other stuff to get a little full body effect. The carb intake has been pretty big, but unfortunately I really haven't tried to calculate actual amounts. Anyway, rebounding from the contest prep diet and the UD2 first cycle, I'm up almost 3kg in a couple of days. Some of it is fat, no doubt, although there is no fading of the six pack, but I can see that the muscles are bigger and, especially, much denser. Again, no doubt, this is in large part the anabolic effect of more food; but I wonder it it's also the lingering impact of the tren, e.g., in having set down a better partitioning pattern, etc. Thoughts?

Infamy
07-05-2013, 03:09 AM
Since there has been a lot of talk of tren here, I thought it might be an appropriate place to pose this question: Are there lingering anabolic effects after discontinuation. I did a short run of 50, 100, 200 then 300 for a few weeks. Stopped about ten days ago. while on, I was cutting for a contest, and the tren visibly aided the cut and the preservation of mass despite the cut. After the contest I started UD 2.0 and have been on less than 30 grams of carbs/day for most of this week. I started ramping up the carbs per the recommended cycle Wednesday evening and have been doing pretty heavy workouts since, mainly concentrating on one muscle group but also doing some other stuff to get a little full body effect. The carb intake has been pretty big, but unfortunately I really haven't tried to calculate actual amounts. Anyway, rebounding from the contest prep diet and the UD2 first cycle, I'm up almost 3kg in a couple of days. Some of it is fat, no doubt, although there is no fading of the six pack, but I can see that the muscles are bigger and, especially, much denser. Again, no doubt, this is in large part the anabolic effect of more food; but I wonder it it's also the lingering impact of the tren, e.g., in having set down a better partitioning pattern, etc. Thoughts?

Tren is so powerful that its effects are long lived well after the last dose even with tren ace. Given your last dose was only 10 days prior I'm pretty confident it is not only still in your system but also working its magic.

The potency of tren can be seen by its suppression. If you inject just 10mg of ace the recovery time is months rather than days. Inject 10mg of test prop and you can expect to be making a recovery in weeks.

Not only that but if you try a low tren dose you'll notice that even 50mg of tren e will give noticeable results. Try 50mg of test e a week and see if you notice anything as comparison!

The trouble I find with tren gains is that a lot is intramuscular water retention which drops off quickly after finishing. The muscle lasts longer but 6 months down the line you'll have lost a lot of it. So then you see yourself much smaller and you want to jump back in it. So the vicious cycle begins!

Sperwer
07-05-2013, 03:29 AM
That's good info. Thanks.

ireland
07-17-2013, 12:41 PM
very interesting thread indeed...look i am now 100% natural and i mean pure as the driven snow. i was never a big user anyhow, never injected , never jumped in the big pool so to speak. but i ran plenty of orals ( fucking lived on epi for a while lol) and more often than not i loved it....whats not to love??? even putting the gains aside for a moment ,the way one feels on a good cycle is fantastic and worth the entrance fee alone. sure we lose some size when its all said and done and this is to be expected and most of the old PP crowd had eyes wide open (not you ippy boy). but for me losing size was no big deal, periodically i would change my goals as my love for cycling kicked in , and down the scale i would drop....so for lots of us, goals change , training adapts and we move on. hts makes great points earlier in this thread which resonate through us all...basically it aint just the being its the feeling we grow to love and all that it brings.
a thread like this is great because when delivered so elegantly and from a true goodfella of our game it makes us pause and think. for me a destructive thyroid forced my hand out of chemicals...pure and simple..but let me tell you the "medical" poision i was on for that (google carbimazole) aint got anything on good old epi.
make your own mind up and be that person...gear or no gear is a personal journey and the sights on both trips are worth seeing.

burlyman30
07-17-2013, 01:14 PM
The name Ireland and the phrase "pure as the driven snow" should never be used together.

ireland
07-17-2013, 01:34 PM
The name Ireland and the phrase "pure as the driven snow" should never be used together.

well maybe snow which has been at the roadside a little while lol

Infamy
07-17-2013, 02:54 PM
Nice to see you here Ireland. Pretty much got the full house of the old pp crew now!

Sorry to hear about your thyroid troubles, I can imagine carbimazole was no fun!

olddawg
08-07-2013, 06:15 PM
Ok boys, fuck all of this philosophical babble, I'm gonna explode my heart. Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9hEFUpTVPA