TRT questions

[pman42]

So I will be going to see an endo soon. a buddy who is around my age (28) saw this endo and was put on TRT. the endo basically told him, "if you ever want to come off we just do a course of clomid and you're good to go." my friend is not even doing the HCG injections. i was under the impression that:
a) the longer you're on TRT, the harder it is to come off, and
b) HCG injections would be absolutely necessary to maintain testicular function, no?

and in another thread, i asked the question: would clomid long-term to boost testosterone cause body composition changes? I mean i know the changes would not be on par with AAS, but if a person had low testosterone and clomid boosted them to normal range, would that improve body composition given other factors like diet and workout were in order?

edit for another question: any good sources (books, sites) for info on the long-term effects of TRT?

thanks

[burlyman30]

I'd say you are most definitely correct about long term TRT without HCG making recovery more difficult. Not just the testes shrink, but the leydig cells within the testes shrink and they are critical for testosterone production. Does that mean recovery is impossible? No. But it does make it slower and there is a greater possibility that full recovery may not occur. This means that while the testes will likely still be able to produce testosterone, it is possible that they will not produce at their previous level.

Regarding long term clomid: I would say that yes, body composition changes would occur to a mild degree and make future body comp endeavors a bit easier. I can tell you that prior to TRT my testosterone levels were in the 100s and just raising it to "normal" levels has made body composition changes less difficult. I see clomid doing something similar.

However, my concern with clomid-only therapy is that it does not address the rising estrogen that will aromatize with higher testosterone levels in vivo. I would strongly suggest light usage of an AI in conjunction with the SERM.

[Freepressright]

So I will be going to see an endo soon. a buddy who is around my age (28) saw this endo and was put on TRT. the endo basically told him, "if you ever want to come off we just do a course of clomid and you're good to go." my friend is not even doing the HCG injections. i was under the impression that:
a) the longer you're on TRT, the harder it is to come off, and
b) HCG injections would be absolutely necessary to maintain testicular function, no?

and in another thread, i asked the question: would clomid long-term to boost testosterone cause body composition changes? I mean i know the changes would not be on par with AAS, but if a person had low testosterone and clomid boosted them to normal range, would that improve body composition given other factors like diet and workout were in order?

edit for another question: any good sources (books, sites) for info on the long-term effects of TRT?

thanks

I would have to seriously question the judgment of any endo who feels TRT is appropriate for someone under 30. Although I cannot speak to every medical anomaly out there, the odds that a person is damaged beyond recovery or to the point that they need TRT under 30 is highly unlikely. I'd consider the doc's actions to border on malpractice.

There is likely a reason you or someone your age would face the wrath of low testosterone. Barring a tumor or something serious, your lifestyle is likely a key factor. You'd be much better suited to invest your time, energy, research and dollars into natural recovery. I'm not opposed to TRT, but at 28? Or early 30s?

Not a course I'd be satisfied with.

Clomid, although effective when used in a restart protocol, would also be an option I'd put further on the back burner.

Like Burly told you, the longer you are on TRT, the more difficult it is going to be to get off it. In many instances, it is a lifelong commitment. And yes, HCG is necessary to maintain testicular function. Not only does it keep them inflated, but it helps to protect the leydig cells.

This is a very serious matter that is worth your time and consideration to find an alternative to.

[O.N.]

I have skim read over your thread so excuse me if i have missed anything critical.
However from what i have read you endo is well and truly behind the times.....as are most endo's.

Let's take for example your testosterone levels being low and qualifying for TRT.
Questions needs to be answered why do you have low testosterone?
What is your diet like....in huge detail?....you will be surprised how certain things can have a major impact and many foods can help create more estrogen in the body along with SHBG.

Is there certain things, foods or habits you have which have caused this issue?
Are you over weight?
Have you had previous steroid use or party drug use?
Do you currently take pre workout supplements or any form of relaxants to help sleep (both stimulants and relaxant type drug/supplements can and do cause lowered testosterone production.

What do all values associated with testosterone production looks like:

Testosterone total
Testosterone Free
LH/FSH
SHBG
Cortisol
Estrogen
Prolactin

Cholesterol total
LDL / HDL
Triglycerides

Once you have a full profile you can see where, how and why you have low testosterone and treat those problems individually, TRT is a band aid.

Lets put this in the most stupid medical terms possible:
Patient: "hi doc i have low testosterone"
Doctor: "well don't worry sir we can just inject you with more testosterone and you can be on your way once again"
Patient: "cool thanks for fixing me doc"

Even if you are thinking right now hey this O.N. dude is trying to flog me his own line of supplements which can help my situation im not, get the blood tests above completed it will give the best in depth look at the hows and the whys of your low testosterone levels and then treat those areas and you will or should have some form of recovery.

You also have other medical treatments like Dr Shippens re-start method of 500IU HCG daily mon-fri for 3 weeks in a row and then retest your levels "basically a re awakening" of the testes. If this fails he has also shown this re-start protocal to be repeated upto to 3-4 times to then have the required benefit. I myself have now helped others use this method along with a very well planned out supplement regimen for 3-4 people now who were medically diagnosed like you to require TRT for life, who all now have high normal testosterone levels and no further need for TRT.

Another thing to note if the problem is on the testicle side of things you can cause leydig cell hyperplasia with HCG this is exactly what happens during puberty when you receive large pulses of LH from ages 12-17 causing your leydig cell number in the testes to multiply and thus create more testosterone.

If you currently produce testosterone even a small amount of testosterone you can simply tune up your body and take the right steps in the right areas to fix the problem instead of wacking a band aid over the problem, because when you pull that band aid off the problem will still be there and will be even worse.

All of the above listed hormones are important and will give a good profile on what, how and why. Get them tested and then actually fix your issue instead of putting a band aid on it.

[pman42]

Just to clarify, I am not going to this endo seeking TRT-- I want answers as to why my testosterone is low. the questions above were more for me to be educated so I could discuss my strong desire to try something other than TRT.

lifestyle and dietary factors have been examined, believe me. the following is what i follow 90% of the time: organic food, 8 hrs sleep, stress reduction protocols, no alcohol, normal supplements that also support test (zinc, magnesium, omega 3s), dietary intake of fat is good with adequate saturated, very little sugar or refined carbohydrates, lots of onions, garlic, and brassica.

I have run the TRS with d-aspartic acid every PCT along with nolva. i think my low T predates prohormone usage so this is why i want to see an endo to have myself fully examined, i mean maybe i have a variocele or something fairly simple that can be corrected.

currently on very low dose letrozole and raloxifene so i guess to get bloods i would have to wait until after theyve cleared but all tests until now show uniformly low testosterone

[weekend]

how long did it take you to grow a beard? how much muscle did you gain before touching prohormones? have you tried getting your testosterone checked the day after heavy training? (thats all i've done but my results came back damn high after leg day lol)

how about body hair and frequency of erections before PH use?

[Jelisej]

how long did it take you to grow a beard? how much muscle did you gain before touching prohormones? have you tried getting your testosterone checked the day after heavy training? (thats all i've done but my results came back damn high after leg day lol)

how about body hair and frequency of erections before PH use?

Interesting question, but mind you- hairloss on head and body as well may be caused by so many factors- including thyroid and adrenal disfunctions, as well as androgen related. Theorethically, even if its very rare one coud have- androgen insensitivity syndrome.
Erections as well are influenced a lot by hormones and neurotransmitters, usually hormones influence neurotransmitter- I would say that E2 has biggest say.

[Jelisej]

Just to clarify, I am not going to this endo seeking TRT-- I want answers as to why my testosterone is low. the questions above were more for me to be educated so I could discuss my strong desire to try something other than TRT.

lifestyle and dietary factors have been examined, believe me. the following is what i follow 90% of the time: organic food, 8 hrs sleep, stress reduction protocols, no alcohol, normal supplements that also support test (zinc, magnesium, omega 3s), dietary intake of fat is good with adequate saturated, very little sugar or refined carbohydrates, lots of onions, garlic, and brassica.

I have run the TRS with d-aspartic acid every PCT along with nolva. i think my low T predates prohormone usage so this is why i want to see an endo to have myself fully examined, i mean maybe i have a variocele or something fairly simple that can be corrected.

currently on very low dose letrozole and raloxifene so i guess to get bloods i would have to wait until after theyve cleared but all tests until now show uniformly low testosterone

What caused your low tt levels we can guess from here to eternity; it could be prohormones it could be that you used bromocriptine to the point that you desensitized your pituary, it could be genetic or it could be some other underlying illness and then body slowed down (metabolism) to slow damage...etc... Best thing to do is as ON said- do the bloodworks
On his list I would add thyroid hormones, and I would add progesterone as well- cortisol if possible do 4X salivary
thyroid-TSH, T3, T4, free T3 free T4, reverse T3 and if you have not dobe before do thyroid antibodies to see if you've got autoimmune disease.

Other thing is, you worry too much about your training and physical appearance, I've got a feeling that you dont really know what do you want, you need to decide for yourself wheter you want to continue with bodybuilding or you want to concetrate on hormones. I dont say that any of two directions is wrong, I'm saying that you cant (effectively) serve two masters.

[ryhigh]

What caused your low tt levels we can guess from here to eternity; it could be prohormones it could be that you used bromocriptine to the point that you desensitized your pituary, it could be genetic or it could be some other underlying illness and then body slowed down (metabolism) to slow damage...etc... Best thing to do is as ON said- do the bloodworks
On his list I would add thyroid hormones, and I would add progesterone as well- cortisol if possible do 4X salivary
thyroid-TSH, T3, T4, free T3 free T4, reverse T3 and if you have not dobe before do thyroid antibodies to see if you've got autoimmune disease.

Other thing is, you worry too much about your training and physical appearance, I've got a feeling that you dont really know what do you want, you need to decide for yourself wheter you want to continue with bodybuilding or you want to concetrate on hormones. I dont say that any of two directions is wrong, I'm saying that you cant (effectively) serve two masters.

Long time no talk man! Im glad to see you still around, i wasnt sure since i havent been on for quite a while. I hope all i goin well with you.

[pman42]

Jelisej, in another thread you mentioned that guys who use AIs to lower estrogen and boost test usually end up with high e2 and low test. now, i am taking letro .625mg every 3 days as part of a gyno protocol and i will not do so for more than 3 months total, is this the kind of dosage you were talking about?

also how would letro exert this effect? thanks

[Jelisej]

I was wondering if you were reffering to this post:
"Now I know that majority of people who use AI to increase testosterone levels or because of high estrogen eventually end up with both low testosterone and low estrogen. Also guys who have been on TRT for years usually decrease AI dosage (to certain extent)."

There I was talking more about long-term, this is observation I got from people who have been on TRT for a while or who were using AI as an TRT for a while- this effect hapens gradually as well. Anyway- 3 months is definitely OK.

Other thing is- because you are planning to lose some fat, be aware that dieting can negatively affect testosterone levels, mostly its temporary affect- but dont do it for too long.

I just saw some questions you asked earlier so I will add my opinion:
"a) the longer you're on TRT, the harder it is to come off, and
b) HCG injections would be absolutely necessary to maintain testicular function, no?

and in another thread, i asked the question: would clomid long-term to boost testosterone cause body composition changes? I mean i know the changes would not be on par with AAS, but if a person had low testosterone and clomid boosted them to normal range, would that improve body composition given other factors like diet and workout were in order?"


a) its not that harder but your testicles will (even with HCG) lose some functionality, and there is genetic ageing affecting HPTA- so usually people recover to somewhat less numbers, tough there are cases who recover to somewhat higher level
b) yes, plus same as LH HCG stimulates production of few other hormones- for example if guys using HCG have too high progesterone usually it means that dosing is bit too high, also when usiong HCG its good to add pregnenolone as sometimes it gets depleted,

Clomid should definitely have some positive effect on body composition (depending on many factors) and also clomid does have some positive effect on strenght- so that should have some effect
Clomid increases total testosterone partly because it increases SHBG, I asume that testostosterone bind to SHBG cannnot pass blood brain barrier- hence we want "feel " a lot but some of later research suggest that even test. bind to SHBG has its own receptors and that at least some of it has its own destination

[h2s]

Great post as always.