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Macdon1588
11-12-2012, 10:11 AM
Over the last month or two, I've become fairly decent at maintaining Ketosis. The gut is getting smaller,and things resembling pecs are slowly coming into focus. Things are good. However,lately, I've come obsessed with a question: Will carbs before a heavy workout day knock me out of Ketosis? If so, how long? And how many carbs? I am good at pushing myself through work outs without carbs, but let's face it, carbs make workouts easier and better. My hypothesis is that properly timed carbs before a workout will be mostly burned resulting in no bad effect on my Ketosis state.

So, here's the experiment:

At about an hour before a workout tomorrow, I am going to drink a protein shake with a half cup of carbohydrates...err I mean oatmeal. That will give 27 net carbs before the workout. Then, I'm going to bust my ass with a 30-40 minute, full body routine followed by ten to fifteen minutes of HIIT using a prowler sled. Afterward, an isopure whey shake and low carb as usual. I will monitor my urine with keto sticks to determine how thinks go. Depending on how it goes, I will escalate carbs.

So here's some questions I put before the panel: Is oatmeal the right carb? Is one hour ahead of my work out the right time? Should I do faster carbs, like bread closer to go time? Or should I wait more time?

Thoughts on the layout of the experiment are greatly appreciated and I will keep everyone posted on how it goes.

h2s
11-12-2012, 10:16 AM
Look into TKD. It is a form of a ketogenic diet that utilizes carbs around your workout. I am not sure the amounts they use, but I think the goal is to have as limited of an impact on ketosis as possible.

Also, I can't answer your question, because I have only done one form of TKD, and it was quite some time ago. But I do believe that simple sugars were adequate for preworkout.

Macdon1588
11-12-2012, 10:19 AM
Look into TKD. It is a form of a ketogenic diet that utilizes carbs around your workout. I am not sure the amounts they use, but I think the goal is to have as limited of an impact on ketosis as possible.

Also, I can't answer your question, because I have only done one form of TKD, and it was quite some time ago. But I do believe that simple sugars were adequate for preworkout.

I'll look it up.

HIXX504
11-12-2012, 10:44 AM
I've found that the longer I stay on a Keto diet, the quicker I get back into ketosis after a cheat day. I use the Keto sticks also. Yesterday I had an epic cheat day. I had about 12 beers, burger, fries ,pizza, desert, cocktails. Pretty much ate whatever I wanted and this morning I checked my urine with a Keto stick and was back in ketosis. I'm going to try your idea and have about 20 grams of carbs pre work out. I'll let you know what my results are.

Eden
11-12-2012, 11:51 AM
I would say take the carbs after your workout since there's straight nutrient shuttling. Also you should be fat adapted and so you should have some gluconeogenesis going on already to provide you with some muscle glycogen.

Macdon1588
11-12-2012, 02:11 PM
I've found that the longer I stay on a Keto diet, the quicker I get back into ketosis after a cheat day. I use the Keto sticks also. Yesterday I had an epic cheat day. I had about 12 beers, burger, fries ,pizza, desert, cocktails. Pretty much ate whatever I wanted and this morning I checked my urine with a Keto stick and was back in ketosis. I'm going to try your idea and have about 20 grams of carbs pre work out. I'll let you know what my results are.

How long do you stay in keto before doing a cheat day?

Macdon1588
11-12-2012, 02:31 PM
My theory that this is based on is that during there is an order to energy consumption ( carbs, fats, then proteins). I think that the spike in carbs coupled with protein will prime the muscles for a good workout and so long as that workout expends all of the carbohydrate taken in, the body should return to Ketosis quickly as there is no remaining easy energy source. I am hoping to get up to a hundred grams.

Eden
11-12-2012, 02:36 PM
You're correct. But isn't nutrient shuttling heightened after stimulating the muscle? You will return to ketosis but I'm not sure on weither this will mess with your fat adaptation.

Jack O'Neill
11-12-2012, 02:38 PM
It looks like Carb Back-loading diet from John Kiefer.

Keto diet for a day without workout. For a workout day, keto diet until the end of workout. Carbs only after, fat+carbs for the 2nd meal.
The aim is to manage hormones like Insulin, Cortisol, Ghrelin. It seems that you're more insulin resistant at the end of the day. That's why it's better to do workout from 4-6PM for this diet.

It would be better to open a specific topic for this diet to talk about it

HIXX504
11-12-2012, 02:39 PM
I cheat on my diet about once a month. This is normally pretty easy for me but right now it's football/hunting/holiday season, and my birthday is in less than a month, so my goal for the rest of the year is to just maintain my current weight and continue getting stronger.

Jack O'Neill
11-12-2012, 02:48 PM
So try to do Carb back-loading. It may be interesting for you (or TKD as said H2S)

Macdon1588
11-12-2012, 03:51 PM
You're correct. But isn't nutrient shuttling heightened after stimulating the muscle? You will return to ketosis but I'm not sure on weither this will mess with your fat adaptation.

Unless I'm mistaken, ketones are the sign that you're body is burning fat for fuel.

Macdon1588
11-12-2012, 03:58 PM
So try to do Carb back-loading. It may be interesting for you (or TKD as said H2S)

I read a little on carb back loading and that inspired me to try this idea of mine. My goal is primarily fat loss, but I love weight training, so I'm trying to find the sweet spot for carbs. Of note is that I will also zig zag caloric intake such that workout days are higher calorie days.

Eden
11-12-2012, 05:11 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, ketones are the sign that you're body is burning fat for fuel.

Ketones are produced by the body for fuel in the absence of Glucose. I'm not sure what brought this up. What I was trying to say was that during the workout you should have enough glycogen in your muscles to fuel the workout. Then after when the muscle is stimulated and wants food, you give it those carbs to quick fill them, and shouldn't incur an insulin spike. I hope that makes sense. I know too much about Ketones, low-carb, primal, nutrition in general.

Macdon1588
11-12-2012, 06:40 PM
Ketones are produced by the body for fuel in the absence of Glucose. I'm not sure what brought this up. What I was trying to say was that during the workout you should have enough glycogen in your muscles to fuel the workout. Then after when the muscle is stimulated and wants food, you give it those carbs to quick fill them, and shouldn't incur an insulin spike. I hope that makes sense. I know too much about Ketones, low-carb, primal, nutrition in general.

I just read your previous post wrong is all. I might try to mess around with order and take the carbs post work out one day. I just want for my muscles to take on the maximum amount of carbs without ruining ketosis. Or if it does, only ruin it for a small window of time.

Eden
11-12-2012, 06:53 PM
Should be fine within 1hour before or 1hour after time frame. Really I'm just kinda stating the absolute best circumstances. Honestly if it's within an hour on either side of the workout you should be fine, and return to ketosis pretty quickly. But I'm interested in see how it treats you because I used to be <100g carbs per day and it seemed to work fine for me. I still get less than 30% of my calories from carbs.

Jack O'Neill
11-12-2012, 11:52 PM
In few circonstances, after several weeks/months in ketosis, it seems to be possible to keep in that state even with up to 100g carbs/day.

Kiefer says that resistance training plays a crucial role in the move of tGlut (glucose transporters) inside muscular cells (and not in fat cells)

Macdon1588
11-13-2012, 01:54 PM
In few circonstances, after several weeks/months in ketosis, it seems to be possible to keep in that state even with up to 100g carbs/day.

Kiefer says that resistance training plays a crucial role in the move of tGlut (glucose transporters) inside muscular cells (and not in fat cells)

This makes me think that I should hold off until December.

I missed the window today because plans changed and I wasn't in a position to eat within the right windows. That said, I am still progressing. Today all I had time for was squats, dead lifts and prowler pushing. Brutal but efficient. Thursday is a night shift, but I may still be a position to try the experiment.

Macdon1588
11-19-2012, 07:30 PM
After a month or so of Ketosis (and a bit of a stall fat loss wise), I cheated hard core. Surprisingly, today, 24 hrs later, I am back into Ketosis. Also of note, I reinstalled the fasted period back into my protocol which may or may not matter. Tomorrow, an hour out from my workout I'm going to consume 50 grams of protein and 30 grams of carbs (oatmeal). Post work out, I will go another 50 grams of protein and remain carbohydrate free. I'll piss on some keto sticks and get back to you.

h2s
11-20-2012, 12:06 AM
I have never actually monitored with sticks when I have tried keto for short periods of time. It is smart to do though.

Jack O'Neill
11-20-2012, 04:38 AM
When I was in keto with a carb refeed once a week, I waited for 2 days to get ketosis.

I checked it with ketosticks too. Very usefull

Today, I carb reload after each workout and I didn't check if I was in ketosis in the morning (fasted too)

Macdon1588
11-20-2012, 08:28 AM
When I was in keto with a carb refeed once a week, I waited for 2 days to get ketosis.

I checked it with ketosticks too. Very usefull

Today, I carb reload after each workout and I didn't check if I was in ketosis in the morning (fasted too)

Do you stay low or no carbohydrate on your non-workout days? The more I read, the more I think that I may get into a pattern of only using carbs around my workouts. As a calorie consumption and insulin management strategy it seems like the most feasible way to maintain muscle and lose fat.

Jack O'Neill
11-20-2012, 08:41 AM
Do you stay low or no carbohydrate on your non-workout days? The more I read, the more I think that I may get into a pattern of only using carbs around my workouts. As a calorie consumption and insulin management strategy it seems like the most feasible way to maintain muscle and lose fat.

Yes this is the concept of Kiefer in Carb Back-loading.

As for me I try to reach 0g carb on off days. On workout day, I keep 0 carbs until the end of workout.

I strictly follow backloading protocol. For the moment, I can eat very much without getting fatter

It works for me

Macdon1588
11-20-2012, 09:06 AM
Yes this is the concept of Kiefer in Carb Back-loading.

As for me I try to reach 0g carb on off days. On workout day, I keep 0 carbs until the end of workout.

I strictly follow backloading protocol. For the moment, I can eat very much without getting fatter

It works for me

Nice.

Macdon1588
11-20-2012, 11:15 AM
Well Jack I inadvertently followed your technique today. I got tangled up with the goings-on around my house and missed my window to eat carbs before the workout. All I had time to do was slam my pre-workout and take some BCAA's before taking my little girl to school and going to work out. I just finished my workout and decided to go with 50 g of carbohydrate and 50 g of protein. From here on, I'll slam water and pee on sticks until I get to Ketosis.

Update:
First keto stick: slightly different color than the control (water) keto stick at 3 hours post carb consumption.

Jack O'Neill
11-20-2012, 01:00 PM
The main idea of Kiefer in its protocol is to control insuline during all the day.

If no workout, insulin must stay very low all the day/night. That's why a big amount of fat (animal fats) is required. The same amount of fat than prots is actually required.

When you eat prots alone there's automatically an insuline spike which means that fat burning is stopped. To avoid that, fats are required.

However, after workout, fats must be avoided and good sources of prots are required. And carbs of course.

It's just summarized. The book is really interesting even if I find this is too expensive

Macdon1588
11-21-2012, 08:32 PM
The main idea of Kiefer in its protocol is to control insuline during all the day.

If no workout, insulin must stay very low all the day/night. That's why a big amount of fat (animal fats) is required. The same amount of fat than prots is actually required.

When you eat prots alone there's automatically an insuline spike which means that fat burning is stopped. To avoid that, fats are required.

However, after workout, fats must be avoided and good sources of prots are required. And carbs of course.

It's just summarized. The book is really interesting even if I find this is too expensive

You actually convinced me to buy the book. I read it and it's a good read. The idea of it is so far away from every thing in the main stream. That said it's not unlike the concept of lean gains so I think I'm on board with it, now I have to figure out how it works with shift work.

Jack O'Neill
11-22-2012, 03:37 AM
There's a part in the book called "nobody's perfect" I believe.

He explains all possible differences with the original protocol : workout time different, ...

Macdon1588
11-22-2012, 08:44 AM
There's a part in the book called "nobody's perfect" I believe.

He explains all possible differences with the original protocol : workout time different, ...

I got done reading that part and I think what I'll do is just have my keto days when I'm working now to keep me safe from fat accumulation and then I'll just follow the carb back loading protocol on the days that I can actually work out and I'm not at work during nights. Being as today is Turkey day, I believe I will enjoy myself and then begin the program in honest the day after.

Macdon1588
11-27-2012, 03:02 PM
Well I'm about a weekend to carb back loading and things are going pretty well. I feel stronger, I'm having a better time at the gym and my waist has stayed the same size, despite going pretty far overboard on the carbs post workout. The next step is to find a sweet spot my carbs and my calories I think.

Jack O'Neill
11-28-2012, 04:48 AM
Well I'm about a weekend to carb back loading and things are going pretty well. I feel stronger, I'm having a better time at the gym and my waist has stayed the same size, despite going pretty far overboard on the carbs post workout. The next step is to find a sweet spot my carbs and my calories I think.

Yes!

Another new follower of the protocol :D

Glad to know that the protocol is working fine for you. As for me it's the same goal: find the correct amount of carbs post workout.

Good luck

BBG
12-01-2012, 01:56 PM
Do you eat a lot of coconut oil?

Jack O'Neill
12-01-2012, 02:53 PM
Do you eat a lot of coconut oil?

10g in the morning
30g pre-workout

Macdon1588
12-15-2012, 12:48 AM
Just a quick update, I'm gaining weight but keeping the same waist size. I need to get better with the carbs I chose and the amount, but still, it's pretty fucking cool way to eat. With the right tweaks, I'm sure I could get to cutting fat again.

Jack O'Neill
12-16-2012, 01:40 PM
Just a quick update, I'm gaining weight but keeping the same waist size. I need to get better with the carbs I chose and the amount, but still, it's pretty fucking cool way to eat. With the right tweaks, I'm sure I could get to cutting fat again.

Yeah man! This is the goal of carb back loading :thumbup:

Great to see good recomp effects for you thanks to the protocol

Scope75
12-16-2012, 01:50 PM
Just a quick update, I'm gaining weight but keeping the same waist size. I need to get better with the carbs I chose and the amount, but still, it's pretty fucking cool way to eat. With the right tweaks, I'm sure I could get to cutting fat again.
Sick!! Gotta like being able to eat good and get bigger while keeping the same sized waist.

Macdon1588
12-16-2012, 08:16 PM
Sick!! Gotta like being able to eat good and get bigger while keeping the same sized waist.

The simplicity is the best part: You just back load on your lifting days and stay ultra low carb on your non lifting days. Today was a bad ass day in the gym, so I had a feast, and I work the next couple of nights so I'll stay low carb. It's a sort of zig zag calorie wise as well as I generally eat less on the ultra low days.

Scope75
12-16-2012, 08:38 PM
The simplicity is the best part: You just back load on your lifting days and stay ultra low carb on your non lifting days. Today was a bad ass day in the gym, so I had a feast, and I work the next couple of nights so I'll stay low carb. It's a sort of zig zag calorie wise as well as I generally eat less on the ultra low days.

That's pretty much how I eat all the time.
Carbs after squats and deads every time and then I'll sometimes eat a good amount of carbs on sat or sun but its rare that I do that.

Macdon1588
12-17-2012, 09:26 AM
That's pretty much how I eat all the time.
Carbs after squats and deads every time and then I'll sometimes eat a good amount of carbs on sat or sun but its rare that I do that.

You've been carb backloading and you didn't even know it;-)! I've always gotten tired after eating breakfast so for me a nice part is not eating breakfast.

Jack O'Neill
12-17-2012, 09:44 AM
You've been carb backloading and you didn't even know it;-)! I've always gotten tired after eating breakfast so for me a nice part is not eating breakfast.

Backloading protocol is more complicated than only eat carbs after workout but it's the beginning

Scope75
12-17-2012, 10:50 AM
You've been carb backloading and you didn't even know it;-)! I've always gotten tired after eating breakfast so for me a nice part is not eating breakfast.

I've known about carb back loading and I was doing it before I read about it, so I just stuck with it.
I start eating at 12-1 and stop at 8-10. All carbs come from good sources and oh on squats and deads.
Today will be fish with a side of sweet potatoes with grill peppers and onions.

Jack O'Neill
12-17-2012, 11:13 AM
I've known about carb back loading and I was doing it before I read about it, so I just stuck with it.
I start eating at 12-1 and stop at 8-10. All carbs come from good sources and oh on squats and deads.
Today will be fish with a side of sweet potatoes with grill peppers and onions.

And don't forget to slam the carbs with turnovers or doughnuts :)))

Scope75
12-17-2012, 02:15 PM
And don't forget to slam the carbs with turnovers or doughnuts :)))

Those type of carbs and I don't get along very well!!

Macdon1588
12-29-2012, 04:52 PM
Though I like carb back loading, I'm thinking that I will slide over to carb night solution. I'll be giving some updates as I try it out.

Jack O'Neill
12-30-2012, 02:56 PM
Though I like carb back loading, I'm thinking that I will slide over to carb night solution. I'll be giving some updates as I try it out.

Good idea for CNS. I tried it during 2 months to cut before my cycle and I liked it. Refeed one day/week.
Do you have the book (cheaper than CBL :))

Macdon1588
01-02-2013, 10:08 PM
Good idea for CNS. I tried it during 2 months to cut before my cycle and I liked it. Refeed one day/week.
Do you have the book (cheaper than CBL :))

Ya, I got it, I'm kind of an e-book collector. :-)

iron
01-02-2013, 11:35 PM
when i was doing intermitten fasting i was on a strick keto diet, except after my workouts i would eat a bowl of frosted flakes with my protein shake and i never lost my keto-mojo, in fact matt porter told me to do it post work out and find a carb i like and try it out so there: frosted flakes and still lost bf like a motherfkr

Jack O'Neill
01-03-2013, 08:36 AM
when i was doing intermitten fasting i was on a strick keto diet, except after my workouts i would eat a bowl of frosted flakes with my protein shake and i never lost my keto-mojo, in fact matt porter told me to do it post work out and find a carb i like and try it out so there: frosted flakes and still lost bf like a motherfkr

So you always were on keto after frosted flakes? How much of them do you eat after workout (in g of carbs)?

Kiefer said that when you're in keto since more than one or 2 weeks, you can eat up to 100g of carbs without exiting keto

iron
01-03-2013, 06:35 PM
So you always were on keto after frosted flakes? How much of them do you eat after workout (in g of carbs)?

Kiefer said that when you're in keto since more than one or 2 weeks, you can eat up to 100g of carbs without exiting keto

i ate a cup with my protein shake, cant remember the macros off the top of my head somewhere around 50? or less. but i really needed that cup of flakes man i swear sometimes i would burn up too much of my stores and end up really sick feeling, but i was on keto for weeks before i started using carbs if that makes a difference, besides you need the insulin hormone because its anabolic after a workout.

Macdon1588
01-14-2013, 03:28 PM
Just as an update I just got through the first carb nite and everything seems well I seem to be leaning out, but only time will tell.

Jack O'Neill
01-15-2013, 03:12 AM
Just as an update I just got through the first carb nite and everything seems well I seem to be leaning out, but only time will tell.

Yeah! Keep the pressure! :)

Will start on monday with carbnite. To help keeping strength I will take osta 20mg/day (will do a log)

Scope75
01-15-2013, 10:23 AM
Carbnite???
How's this diet work?

Jack O'Neill
01-15-2013, 02:33 PM
Carbnite???
How's this diet work?

This is a keto diet.
Macros are 50/50% prots/fats
0 carbs
Skip breakfast
One "carbnite" per week or more which is just a carb refeed

Scope75
01-15-2013, 03:32 PM
This is a keto diet.
Macros are 50/50% prots/fats
0 carbs
Skip breakfast
One "carbnite" per week or more which is just a carb refeed
Wonder if a diet like that would be good for me since my leg is fractured and I'm in a boot so no cardio.
I don't eat breakfast anyways and 11-1200 cals of protein and fats each sounds more than do able.
The carb refeed is your last meal or just eat carbs all night?

Macdon1588
01-15-2013, 04:38 PM
Basically it's no carb for at least five days, though I'm doing six or seven depending on my work schedule. Then, eat carbs for six hours on your re-feed night. I think it works independent of exercise. Also, that fat/protein ratio is grams, not percentage. So one to one. Though some Keto types say calories don't matter, I do keep a rough count and try to stay at my maintenance levels or less. Weightlifting burns enough calories that I am losing weight, though I need to be throwing in some cardio just because.

Scope75
01-15-2013, 05:55 PM
Basically it's no carb for at least five days, though I'm doing six or seven depending on my work schedule. Then, eat carbs for six hours on your re-feed night. I think it works independent of exercise. Also, that fat/protein ratio is grams, not percentage. So one to one. Though some Keto types say calories don't matter, I do keep a rough count and try to stay at my maintenance levels or less. Weightlifting burns enough calories that I am losing weight, though I need to be throwing in some cardio just because.

When you say no carb does that mean veggies and fruit too??
I always eat stawberries, black blue and raspberries

Jack O'Neill
01-16-2013, 01:01 AM
When you say no carb does that mean veggies and fruit too??
I always eat stawberries, black blue and raspberries

The aim is to reach 0 carbs. So no fruits at all of course. The logic behind that is to avoid the insulin spike due to carbs. Prots may rise insulin too. That's why it's required to eat as much fat as prot to stop insulin

Jack O'Neill
01-16-2013, 01:02 AM
Basically it's no carb for at least five days, though I'm doing six or seven depending on my work schedule. Then, eat carbs for six hours on your re-feed night. I think it works independent of exercise. Also, that fat/protein ratio is grams, not percentage. So one to one. Though some Keto types say calories don't matter, I do keep a rough count and try to stay at my maintenance levels or less. Weightlifting burns enough calories that I am losing weight, though I need to be throwing in some cardio just because.

Btw Macdon I read your log on DH forum. It seems to work for you. Happy for you

I like CNS protocol and I start on monday

Scope75
01-16-2013, 10:11 AM
Well I did a little reading last night and I'll be doing CarbNite starting today so next Friday night will be my first CarbNite!!
That protocol is what I'll be using to get lean while I'm unable to do traditional types cardio and no squats or deads.

Scope75
01-16-2013, 10:23 AM
The aim is to reach 0 carbs. So no fruits at all of course. The logic behind that is to avoid the insulin spike due to carbs. Prots may rise insulin too. That's why it's required to eat as much fat as prot to stop insulin
Sounds easy enough to me.
I'm a protein and fat whore. I eat protien (chicken, fish, and steak) and fats (Chesses, nut butters, and butter) all day everyday.



Btw Macdon I read your log on DH forum. It seems to work for you. Happy for you

I like CNS protocol and I start on monday

Sounds like we need to get a CNS Protocol Crew started with a thread so we can post up how it's going/working, meal ideas, and everything else that is CarbNite.

Macdon1588
01-16-2013, 06:00 PM
Btw Macdon I read your log on DH forum. It seems to work for you. Happy for you

I like CNS protocol and I start on monday

Thanks man I really appreciate that. I'm hoping this version keto will help crack through my plateau.

Scope75
01-16-2013, 06:15 PM
Post up a link to your log.
I'd like to take a look at it.

Macdon1588
01-16-2013, 06:33 PM
Will do when I hit a computer next time.

Macdon1588
01-16-2013, 06:37 PM
I don't post food over there, but, I eat a lot of sausage patties, bacon, roast beef, hot links, and pork grinds when I'm jonesing for something crunchy. Having the six hour carb window every week is kind of fun because you can find some desert to destroy.

Scope75
01-16-2013, 07:14 PM
I don't post food over there, but, I eat a lot of sausage patties, bacon, roast beef, hot links, and pork grinds when I'm jonesing for something crunchy. Having the six hour carb window every week is kind of fun because you can find some desert to destroy.
What's your wieght and how many cals are you taking in a day??
Are you going 50/50 fats and protien?

Macdon1588
01-16-2013, 08:22 PM
As of today, I'm 211. I stick around 2400-2600 a day calories except on carb night where I simply don't count a thing once the night begins.

Macdon1588
01-16-2013, 08:54 PM
This is weird but I can't seem to get a good link.

Scope75
01-16-2013, 09:59 PM
As of today, I'm 211. I stick around 2400-2600 a day calories except on carb night where I simply don't count a thing once the night begins.

Cool..
I'm about the same weight, but I just can't do cardio so I'll aim to keep the cals around 2100-2400.
Are you 50/50 with carbs and fats?

- - - Updated - - -


This is weird but I can't seem to get a good link.
What's the title of your log??
I'll google it and find it that way.

Scope75
01-16-2013, 10:40 PM
Looks like I'll be shooting for 175 grams of both protein and fat a day.

Jack O'Neill
01-17-2013, 05:45 AM
Post up a link to your log.
I'd like to take a look at it.

Look into Dangerously Hardcore (http://www.dangerouslyhardcore.com) and go to forum

Jack O'Neill
01-17-2013, 05:53 AM
As for me, ~200g of prots/fat for about 2600kcal on workout or non-workout days
I don't count calories during carbnite.
I'm a bit above my maintenance for the moment 'cause I'm going to take osta but macros were :
~150g prots/fat for about 2000cal when I cut this summer.

I eated steaks, bacon, butter essentially. A bit of macademia nuts and cheese.
Refeed was full of white rice or bread or bagels, french fries too. Pasta was bloating me

Jack O'Neill
01-17-2013, 06:14 AM
This is weird but I can't seem to get a good link.

Macdon did a log in the private part of the forum dedicated to the Carbnite book owners.

Macdon1588
01-17-2013, 08:39 AM
Macdon did a log in the private part of the forum dedicated to the Carbnite book owners.

That would explain it.

Scope75
01-17-2013, 09:16 AM
As for me, ~200g of prots/fat for about 2600kcal on workout or non-workout days
I don't count calories during carbnite.
I'm a bit above my maintenance for the moment 'cause I'm going to take osta but macros were :
~150g prots/fat for about 2000cal when I cut this summer.

I eated steaks, bacon, butter essentially. A bit of macademia nuts and cheese.
Refeed was full of white rice or bread or bagels, french fries too. Pasta was bloating me
I don't count cals either but I do keep track in my head threw out the day. I'll try CarbNite without counting cals for the first month and if I'm not happy I'll adjust the amount of cals and keep better track of the cals I take in. 22-2300 is maintance cals for me so I'll be seeing if I'll be able to lose fat on that amount if not ill drop it to 2k cals and see how I respond.
What I'm after is a cardioless cut. Not worried about muscle loss right now but getting fat is a problem.
I'll be eating a lot of beef, chicken, fish, eggs, cheese, butter, nuts, and coconut oil.
Plan is to eat 2 550 cal meals and then have a 3rd that's makes up the rest if the days cals.

Scope75
01-17-2013, 09:43 AM
Macdon did a log in the private part of the forum dedicated to the Carbnite book owners.
I'm just about to sign up there, so I can do a shit ton of reading while I'm laid up for a few days.

That would explain it.
What's the tittle of your log or do you use the same screen name on DH also?

Macdon1588
01-18-2013, 07:14 PM
I'm just about to sign up there, so I can do a shit ton of reading while I'm laid up for a few days.

What's the tittle of your log or do you use the same screen name on DH also?

Yes sir I do. It's macdon1588's rookie Cns log.

Scope75
01-18-2013, 10:46 PM
Well I've signed up over there but have t received my activation email and I've requested it a couple time alresdy.
Hopefully it'll come threw soon. Lol

Been eating lots of fats and meat and tomorrow I'll be fasting then hitting a chest workout having a shake and then go out on a date and put a hurting on some food.

Coolazice
01-18-2013, 11:02 PM
Well I've signed up over there but have t received my activation email and I've requested it a couple time alresdy.
Hopefully it'll come threw soon. Lol

Been eating lots of fats and meat and tomorrow I'll be fasting then hitting a chest workout having a shake and then go out on a date and put a hurting on some food.

I tried signing up too just so I could take a look around and I haven't heard back either. I must have sent 7 requests. At this point, I could not possibly care less if I hear from them. They need to rethink their poor business plan. Keeping me waiting for a response will just encourage me to look elsewhere for information.

Scope75
01-18-2013, 11:18 PM
I tried signing up too just so I could take a look around and I haven't heard back either. I must have sent 7 requests. At this point, I could not possibly care less if I hear from them. They need to rethink their poor business plan. Keeping me waiting for a response will just encourage me to look elsewhere for information.

I kinda want to be able to read and post because I'm doing CarbNite and I wanted to get a better idea of what I needed to do to make the diet work for me.
Think I have it down pretty good but there's lots of info that I'm missing and I don't have the book yet.

Coolazice
01-18-2013, 11:25 PM
I kinda want to be able to read and post because I'm doing CarbNite and I wanted to get a better idea of what I needed to do to make the diet work for me.
Think I have it down pretty good but there's lots of info that I'm missing and I don't have the book yet.

I can understand that. I wanted to try and learn something too, but I don't have a ton of patience for nonsense these days. Looking forward to hearing how it works out for you. Seems like you can make almost any diet work for you with your drive though. :cool:

Scope75
01-18-2013, 11:34 PM
I can understand that. I wanted to try and learn something too, but I don't have a ton of patience for nonsense these days. Looking forward to hearing how it works out for you. Seems like you can make almost any diet work for you with your drive though. :cool:

That's the thing my drive is shitty without my legs!!!
I still have the same positive mindset but not being able to hit deads or squats is hurting me big time.
On top of that cardio and lifting came to a abrupt stop and the rebound hasn't been good. Lol
I'm hopeing CarbNite and doing all I can in the weight room will rid me of the fat I've gained.

Scope75
01-19-2013, 03:55 PM
First real meal of the day!!!
10 pieces of bacon and 5 eggs.
http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/4BB8C0D8-5FD1-4454-858F-127A0DAA71C4-32743-000016FC5FE0D271_zpsb1d0a6ac.jpg

Macdon1588
01-19-2013, 09:28 PM
I tried signing up too just so I could take a look around and I haven't heard back either. I must have sent 7 requests. At this point, I could not possibly care less if I hear from them. They need to rethink their poor business plan. Keeping me waiting for a response will just encourage me to look elsewhere for information.

It's because they want you to buy the books before you get into the forum and that's because both carb loading and carb nite are so easy in concept. For carb night it's just ketosis for a week with a carb binge for six hours. Easy but effective.

Coolazice
01-20-2013, 01:36 AM
It's because they want you to buy the books before you get into the forum and that's because both carb loading and carb nite are so easy in concept. For carb night it's just ketosis for a week with a carb binge for six hours. Easy but effective.

I figured it was something along those lines and that's why I mentioned they need to rethink their business plan. Thanks for saving me a bunch of time on their forum!! :cool:

Scope75
01-20-2013, 11:20 AM
It's because they want you to buy the books before you get into the forum and that's because both carb loading and carb nite are so easy in concept. For carb night it's just ketosis for a week with a carb binge for six hours. Easy but effective.
Lol!!!
I bought CarbNite and I still can't a activation email.
I want to be able to read and see what others are eating so I can get ideas for different food and stradigies.

Scope75
01-20-2013, 11:57 AM
You have to buy CBL to get into the forum. Lol
Was going to hold off on buying that book until I get leaner but I guess I'll buy it now.

Scope75
01-20-2013, 02:32 PM
I'll be doing some grocery shopping today and here's what I plan to pick up.
3-4 dozen organic eggs
4-5 pounds organic beef
2-3 pounds of bacon
A few different cheeses
Heavy cream
Veggies
And whatever else I see that fits the CarbNite protocol.

Scope75
01-21-2013, 09:37 PM
Yes sir I do. It's macdon1588's rookie Cns log.

Hey I finally was able to join DH and found your log..

Jack O'Neill
01-22-2013, 01:01 AM
Hey I finally was able to join DH and found your log..

;) great! Welcome to DH.
Do you create a log too? Mine is in the CBL logs part.

Jack O'Neill
01-22-2013, 09:54 AM
;) great! Welcome to DH.
Do you create a log too? Mine is in the CBL logs part.

Found it in DH.

Macdon1588
01-22-2013, 11:15 AM
Hey I finally was able to join DH and found your log..

Cool, good to have you on board.

Scope75
01-22-2013, 01:05 PM
Cool, good to have you on board.

Lots of food ideas over there and I'll be posting and sharing what I make here also.

Macdon1588
05-12-2013, 09:00 PM
So after kicking around different plans, and ultimately failing because of shift working and other reasons, I'm going to a modified Carb Night Solution. Right now I am 230 lbs of which 180 is lean mass and can sure stand to lose the fat pounds. It's going to be a long term test of ketosis theories and philosophies that I've put to use with some success previously. I am going to experiment with different levels of calories, and eating times. I'm roughly four days into being carb less which is the roughest patch. I intend to stay carb less until I stall and only then cheat. Another thing that is going to be different is I'm staying cheese/dairy free except whey protein. I am also considering reducing my eating window to about eight hours a day. I have about nine months until my TWINS are born so I'm giving fat loss my best shot.

I have certain rules that I will follow:
I will measure at the waist rather than rely on a scale.
I will not back slide on strength. I will give myself a month to adjust, but after that, if I back slide in strength, I'll adjust.
No Dairy.
I will measure all food.



I suspect that my lowish testosterone may have something to do with my body composition and I'm not afraid of seeking TRT, but I want to try controlling my insulin first.

burlyman30
05-12-2013, 10:04 PM
Congrats on the twins! Wow!

Sounds to me like you are on the right track with your plans. Go forward and adjust as needed. I'll follow along and will be happy to add input as I can.

As an aside, being on TRT has been mildly helpful with fat loss in my 6 month journey. It plays a part, but it isn't radical change by any means.

Fat Bill Dwyer
05-13-2013, 05:31 AM
Wow! CNS w/o dairy is a high degree of difficulty diet for a family man. Can't wait to see you nail it and give hope to all the rest of us.

Macdon1588
05-13-2013, 07:30 AM
Congrats on the twins! Wow!

Sounds to me like you are on the right track with your plans. Go forward and adjust as needed. I'll follow along and will be happy to add input as I can.

As an aside, being on TRT has been mildly helpful with fat loss in my 6 month journey. It plays a part, but it isn't radical change by any means.

Thank you. I'll definitely ask for help. The more I learn about the body, the more I'm convinced that hormones play the biggest part in determining the degree of success in health goals. I wish I had the balance I did at 18 when I could eat like a horse and not gain a pound.

Macdon1588
05-13-2013, 07:33 AM
Wow! CNS w/o dairy is a high degree of difficulty diet for a family man. Can't wait to see you nail it and give hope to all the rest of us.

Thank you. I agree that the dairy part will be tough. However, I'm kind of well suited for the challenge because I could eat the same thing for months on end. Oh, and I have a wife that tolerates and supports my shenanigans;-),

Macdon1588
05-13-2013, 07:45 AM
If any one is interested in the history of carb restricting diets, grab a copy of "Why we get fat, and what to do about it," by Gary Taubes. I think it's pretty insightful for understanding insulin's row in fat gain. Plus, it explains how ideas and misconceptions on the western diet and dieting have started and progressed through years to lead us to the place we are now. My critique would be that he underscores the importance of exercise.

Macdon1588
05-17-2013, 02:29 PM
Scale chimed in at 223 from 230. Strength is holding. I met my numbers on deads , and bench. I'm using escalating density training as my accessory exercises which is a change of pace. It was pretty killer but I felt good.

Macdon1588
05-28-2013, 09:07 AM
My weight is down to 221and my waist is down an inch. I'm almost a month in a carb depleted state. I've added HIIT sparingly due to time constraints. I'm not sure if I should add more because I've been worn out from work as I just put in a 84 hour week (4 nights, then 3 days with a 24 hour turn around). I'm kicking around the idea of a carb night, but progress has been so good to this point I'm uncertain and I can't train other than doing body weight stuff here at home.

burlyman30
05-28-2013, 10:04 AM
My weight is down to 221and my waist is down an inch. I'm almost a month in a carb depleted state. I've added HIIT sparingly due to time constraints. I'm not sure if I should add more because I've been worn out from work as I just put in a 84 hour week (4 nights, then 3 days with a 24 hour turn around). I'm kicking around the idea of a carb night, but progress has been so good to this point I'm uncertain and I can't train other than doing body weight stuff here at home.

Sounds like things are going well. I would stay the course, and continue doing what you're doing as long as you feel OK.

Macdon1588
05-28-2013, 10:21 AM
Sounds like things are going well. I would stay the course, and continue doing what you're doing as long as you feel OK.

Thank you. So, are you saying not to have a cheat night?

burlyman30
05-28-2013, 12:35 PM
Thank you. So, are you saying not to have a cheat night?

If you need one mentally or can tell you need one physically, then go ahead. But if you are tolerating the ketosis well physically, then there's not a lot of reason to go out of it except for mentally. I'm not saying you can't. Just doesn't sound like you need one yet.

Scope75
05-28-2013, 12:40 PM
How many carbs a day are getting in by veggies and trace carbs??
I was LC for a long ass time but I would always eat some berries or watermelon a few times a week not for the carbs but more for a treat. Even eating berries and stuff I'd say I was around 50-75g carbs on those days so that's not much at all.

weekend
05-28-2013, 01:39 PM
That seems like a lot to me scope, under 30 is not much IMO

At least for a low carb diet.

Scope75
05-28-2013, 01:49 PM
I highly doubt I was ever around 75 or even 50 but I never tracked anything so I just threw that 50-75g number out there, plus it wasn't every night just 2-3 nights a week. I've read a normal person uses about 75-100g carbs for everyday functioning.

Now I'm well under 30g a day when I'm LC because I don't eat any carbs but what comes from veggies and that's not much, but I have good sized refeeds pretty often.

To help with leaning out I've cut out all protein powder so I'm only eating whole foods, and in 5-7 days I've alresdy seen changes in body comp.

Macdon1588
05-28-2013, 02:03 PM
How many carbs a day are getting in by veggies and trace carbs??
I was LC for a long ass time but I would always eat some berries or watermelon a few times a week not for the carbs but more for a treat. Even eating berries and stuff I'd say I was around 50-75g carbs on those days so that's not much at all.

I'm eating a couple cups of broccoli here and there. I'm thinking that I will wait a week or so because I'm still dropping. I'm tired, but I think it's from work.

Scope75
05-28-2013, 02:22 PM
Last week I learned I need veggies in large amounts everyday if not I'm shitting water, and that's no fun. Lol
Added veggies back in on Saturday and I'm back to normal.

Where are you at cal wise right now??

weekend
05-28-2013, 03:44 PM
I highly doubt I was ever around 75 or even 50 but I never tracked anything so I just threw that 50-75g number out there, plus it wasn't every night just 2-3 nights a week. I've read a normal person uses about 75-100g carbs for everyday functioning.

Now I'm well under 30g a day when I'm LC because I don't eat any carbs but what comes from veggies and that's not much, but I have good sized refeeds pretty often.

To help with leaning out I've cut out all protein powder so I'm only eating whole foods, and in 5-7 days I've alresdy seen changes in body comp.

you think protein powder is bad for body comp?

i was thinking of dropping it for a bit because it has "growth factors" which i think might help sustain my gyno... but also my muscle mass lol

Scope75
05-28-2013, 06:45 PM
you think protein powder is bad for body comp?

i was thinking of dropping it for a bit because it has "growth factors" which i think might help sustain my gyno... but also my muscle mass lol
Yeah I personally don't do all that damn well with protein powders and whenever I drop them out of my diet I'm able to lean out without changing anything else. Plus I love to eat and without the shakes I'm able to eat more real food.

The Growth Factors don't care what they are making grow, and mine seem to make my fat cells grow quicker than my muscle do. Might be a good idea just to see if it does help out the gyno.

Bucks
05-28-2013, 07:01 PM
you think protein powder is bad for body comp?

i was thinking of dropping it for a bit because it has "growth factors" which i think might help sustain my gyno... but also my muscle mass lol

When cutting protein powder takes less effort for the body to digest it than real food does. Therefore less calories are used by the body for digesting protein powder over real food. This is where highfiber greens really helps out because they burn more calories by the body to digest than the calories they contain in the food.

I've leaned out the most in my life when only eating real organic food and greens every meal, throwing in a cheat day per week for refeeds. That is impossible for me at this time in my life with my profession, but it works great for burning off the fat if you have the time to make the food.

weekend
05-28-2013, 07:40 PM
Yeah I personally don't do all that damn well with protein powders and whenever I drop them out of my diet I'm able to lean out without changing anything else. Plus I love to eat and without the shakes I'm able to eat more real food.

The Growth Factors don't care what they are making grow, and mine seem to make my fat cells grow quicker than my muscle do. Might be a good idea just to see if it does help out the gyno.


maybe ill finish off my current stash of whey and then pick up some hemp protein and just use that post workout for the summer. haha hemp protein has to be better for the nips than whey, also a lot of fiber in there

Scope75
05-28-2013, 07:46 PM
maybe ill finish off my current stash of whey and then pick up some hemp protein and just use that post workout for the summer. haha hemp protein has to be better for the nips than whey, also a lot of fiber in there

I just took all my protein powder to my GFs so if I get into it it'll only be for a couple days a week.

Macdon1588
06-15-2013, 07:03 PM
Just thought that I would chime in with an update. I got down to about 218 before this carb up night celebration of Father's Day. A big thing that I think is helping this time around is the fat to protein balance. I am much heavier into fats this time around and I'm cutting faster than I have before, plus, I fucking love bacon (if only there was bacon flavored pussy out there;-)) and sausage and eggs.