19-nor dhea (mg) ?

[mahatma]

Curious to know what is considered an effective dose of 19 Nor DHEA.

Came by a product but it's only 18mg per cap

[Freepressright]

Plain capsules administered orally (without special delivery system)

300-600mg/day standalone
200-300mg/day when stacked

- - - Updated - - -

18 milligrams of norDHEA won't do diddly shit

[burlyman30]

I don't know if anyone recalls the mg per capsule of androbulk, but it took 6 caps daily at a minimum.

[Bucks]

Androbulk 6 caps contained
204mg 19 DHEA
600mg 4 DHEA

[Freepressright]

It is an absolute crime that no one has ever developed a topical 19norDHEA. This hormone in particular would be delivered exceptionally well with a topical carrier. The enzymatic conversion would be highly efficient.

This is really an overlooked prohormone that no one has really developed or polished upon. PP did with AndroBulk, but it enjoyed relatively little recognition in the short timeframe it was available. Hopefully someone else will run with this one some day.

[mahatma]

I read if you could find the old ams decavol then use the caps w/ a carrier (iron legion) and there you go.
not sure of any fillers and such....

[Freepressright]

I read that as well. The only downside, I was told, is the smell. One of the reasons PP's AndroEnhance was so expensive was because they needed to find an odor-free version of 4DHEA. Winslow Jenkins over at PP assured me that 19norDHEA smells like rotting fish.

[Right Hook]

It is an absolute crime that no one has ever developed a topical 19norDHEA. This hormone in particular would be delivered exceptionally well with a topical carrier. The enzymatic conversion would be highly efficient.

This is really an overlooked prohormone that no one has really developed or polished upon. PP did with AndroBulk, but it enjoyed relatively little recognition in the short timeframe it was available. Hopefully someone else will run with this one some day.

Topical 19-norDHEA is not going to be any more efficient than other delivery methods such as sublingual or an oral with a fatty ester attached (likely less efficient). People who sell pro hormone transdermals neglect to tell you that the skin is also full of sulfotransferase enzymes. It's a neat thing to "forget" in marketing.

Transdermals are also a clear and distinct violation of DSHEA guidance.

[mahatma]

Topical 19-norDHEA is not going to be any more efficient than other delivery methods such as sublingual or an oral with a fatty ester attached (likely less efficient). People who sell pro hormone transdermals neglect to tell you that the skin is also full of sulfotransferase enzymes. It's a neat thing to "forget" in marketing.

Transdermals are also a clear and distinct violation of DSHEA guidance.

I know not of the DSHEA but think that mfg's would market their goods as cosmetics rather than supplements to avoid the issue/violation.

[Freepressright]

Topical 19-norDHEA is not going to be any more efficient than other delivery methods such as sublingual or an oral with a fatty ester attached (likely less efficient). People who sell pro hormone transdermals neglect to tell you that the skin is also full of sulfotransferase enzymes. It's a neat thing to "forget" in marketing.

Transdermals are also a clear and distinct violation of DSHEA guidance.

I've known a few in the chemistry end of things who would disagree with you, one being Jake from Antaeus labs.

And with respect to DSHEA guidance, no one really knows what a "clear and distinct" violation is because there is no consistency in enforcement. If the FDA gets a hard on for you, no matter what you're selling, you're fucked.

[Freepressright]

And according to Seth Roberts Anabolic Pharmacology:

"Like the other DHEA derivatives, norDHEA would be useful in a transdermal application since the enzymes needed for the conversions to more powerful metabolites are concentrated in the skin and absorption through the skin using a good transdermal delivery cream could allow for 5-10x higher absorption than oral."

You'll find very few reviewers dogging transdermal prohormones. Dermacrine is still around today because it's a solid product and it works. Original 1-T was successful, as was 1-T Tren. I also found AndroEnhance to be an effective product, as did others.

And we can't forget about Patrick Arnold's E-spray when it was out. I know a couple of people who used it and felt that it was as good as AndroHard for them. This might not be the best place to dog transdermals. A lot of us here have used them and like them quite a bit.

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you with AMS and don't you sell sublingual RDe Chrome tabs and then use esters in the Forerunner products? I use your products and like them, but it explains a lot about why you'd dog transdermals when you have a dog in the fight.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I will be using some of your products in an upcoming run. I have my 4ad already and have one bottle of 1-andro at home and hope to order another one by the end of the week. No disrespect intended in this discussion.

851

[Right Hook]

I've known a few in the chemistry end of things who would disagree with you, one being Jake from Antaeus labs.

And with respect to DSHEA guidance, no one really knows what a "clear and distinct" violation is because there is no consistency in enforcement. If the FDA gets a hard on for you, no matter what you're selling, you're fucked.

I think you are misinterpreting what Jake may be telling you. There is a big difference between delivering something like dienelone vs. 19-norDHEA. Dienelone is an active steroid.

Supplements are clearly defined to be administered orally by the FDA. There isn't many ways to misinterpret that. Just because they don't always choose to enforce it doesn't mean it's smart to produce transdermals. They can also act retroactively.

[Freepressright]

Again, I'd refer you back to Seth Roberts' Anabolic Pharmacology, and also allude to some of the products Eric at Primordial developed and used. It comes down to the androgenic skin enzymes which are efficient in aiding conversion to the target hormones. Jake and I actually had a very lengthy conversation about how good of a candidate 19norDHEA would be for a topical. He even offered to make me a batch if I could score the raws.

The original 1-T was 1-DHEA/5-DHEA/pregenolone and it delivered consistently good results. Many of us made solid gains. My first six week run I put on 10 pounds and retained eight of it. And I had none of the 1-DHEA lethargy or loss of libido.

Any time I've taken the oral 1-DHEA route, the lethargy has been almost flu like. I tried 1-T Liqua-Vade and it was nothing at all like the topical. People said the same thing about the oral Dermacrine versus the topical.

Lots of us like topicals. And we like them because they've worked for us.

[Right Hook]

And according to Seth Roberts Anabolic Pharmacology:

"Like the other DHEA derivatives, norDHEA would be useful in a transdermal application since the enzymes needed for the conversions to more powerful metabolites are concentrated in the skin and absorption through the skin using a good transdermal delivery cream could allow for 5-10x higher absorption than oral."

You'll find very few reviewers dogging transdermal prohormones. Dermacrine is still around today because it's a solid product and it works. Original 1-T was successful, as was 1-T Tren. I also found AndroEnhance to be an effective product, as did others.

And we can't forget about Patrick Arnold's E-spray when it was out. I know a couple of people who used it and felt that it was as good as AndroHard for them. This might not be the best place to dog transdermals. A lot of us here have used them and like them quite a bit.

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you with AMS and don't you sell sublingual RDe Chrome tabs and then use esters in the Forerunner products? I use your products and like them, but it explains a lot about why you'd dog transdermals when you have a dog in the fight.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I will be using some of your products in an upcoming run. I have my 4ad already and have one bottle of 1-andro at home and hope to order another one by the end of the week. No disrespect intended in this discussion.

851

I agree with Seth. Transdermals are better than a simple oral capsule. He's not comparing transdermals vs. sublingual or lymphatic delivery.

Dermacrine is not a prohormone. Sulfotransferase enzymes may be irrelevant to whatever its delivering. context is important here.

I'm not dogging transdermals. Nobody even sells them afaik. I'm trying to help you understand why nobody makes transdermal 19-norDHEA.

AMS/FRL could make transdermals. I've spent a significant amount of time researching ways to make them as effective as the other products, but there isn't a way, and thus doing it would simply be a risky venture with a less effective product.

[Freepressright]

Dermacrine is not a prohormone. Sulfotransferase enzymes may be irrelevant to whatever its delivering. context is important here.


Dermacrine IS a prohormone, albeit a really mild one, but a prohormone nonetheless.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 5-DHEA is a steroid hormone with the propensity to undergo a two-step conversion to testosterone, is it not? It has a built in AI (trans-resveratrol) and includes 7,8 benzo.

And I'd also ask, do you or any of your employees have any experience creating and using 19norDHEA as a transdermal? Why dog it when you guys could actually try it?

[Right Hook]

Dermacrine IS a prohormone, albeit a really mild one, but a prohormone nonetheless.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 5-DHEA is a steroid hormone with the propensity to undergo a two-step conversion to testosterone, is it not? It has a built in AI (trans-resveratrol) and includes 7,8 benzo.

And I'd also ask, do you or any of your employees have any experience creating and using 19norDHEA as a transdermal? Why dog it when you guys could actually try it?

Then the same applies to Dermacrine. But again Dermacrine is going to be better than oral DHEA, but as good as a sublingual or lymphatic DHEA? Likely no. DHEA in it of itself is quite a bit different as the body seems to reserve DHEA sulfate as sort of a reservoir to pull from when needed.

We have had virtually every prototype and then some come through us to try out. We have been selling this stuff longer than anyone. A new chemist was hired recently to re-develop some of the FRL formulas, maybe they will come up with something better than all of them.

[Freepressright]

But the most important point that's getting lost in this debate is delivery versus conversion. That hormonal conversion is what's important, and as Seth Roberts documents, "Like the other DHEA derivatives, norDHEA would be useful in a transdermal application since the enzymes needed for the conversions to more powerful metabolites are concentrated in the skin and absorption through the skin using a good transdermal delivery cream could allow for 5-10x higher absorption than oral."

Again, we have some market-based, real-world experience with PP's successes in transdermals. The products worked. I'm can't make that up.

[Right Hook]

But the most important point that's getting lost in this debate is delivery versus conversion. That hormonal conversion is what's important, and as Seth Roberts documents, "Like the other DHEA derivatives, norDHEA would be useful in a transdermal application since the enzymes needed for the conversions to more powerful metabolites are concentrated in the skin and absorption through the skin using a good transdermal delivery cream could allow for 5-10x higher absorption than oral."

Again, we have some market-based, real-world experience with PP's successes in transdermals. The products worked. I'm can't make that up.

Enzymes needed for deactivation of the hormone are also heavily concentrated in the skin. That was my original point.

[Freepressright]

Theoretically, that might be the case. But the anecdotal evidence, which is out there in large quantities, suggests otherwise for most folks. The majority of transdermal non-methylated prohormone users (former 1-T, Dermacrine, AndroEnhance) users report favorable outcomes.

Tell you what, you guys do up a batch of topical DHEA isomers and I'll be your guinea pig.

[nate3993]

yeah. lol to someone saying that topical plain DHEA wasn't as effective as oral. the skin enzymes yielded much higher conversions to the androgenic hormones than oral. with oral plain DHEA you're prolly gonna just get more estrogen than anything else. at least i know that high dose oral dhea gives you a large estrogen increase.

and just so you know, i'm only talking about plain DHEA. not 1-dhea. not 5-dhea. just plain, jane DHEA.

[Right Hook]

yeah. lol to someone saying that topical plain DHEA wasn't as effective as oral. the skin enzymes yielded much higher conversions to the androgenic hormones than oral. with oral plain DHEA you're prolly gonna just get more estrogen than anything else. at least i know that high dose oral dhea gives you a large estrogen increase.

and just so you know, i'm only talking about plain DHEA. not 1-dhea. not 5-dhea. just plain, jane DHEA.

Who said that? Not I.

[Freepressright]

yeah. lol to someone saying that topical plain DHEA wasn't as effective as oral. the skin enzymes yielded much higher conversions to the androgenic hormones than oral. with oral plain DHEA you're prolly gonna just get more estrogen than anything else. at least i know that high dose oral dhea gives you a large estrogen increase.

and just so you know, i'm only talking about plain DHEA. not 1-dhea. not 5-dhea. just plain, jane DHEA.

5-DHEA is plain DHEA :)

[Sperwer]

It is an absolute crime that no one has ever developed a topical 19norDHEA. This hormone in particular would be delivered exceptionally well with a topical carrier. The enzymatic conversion would be highly efficient.

This is really an overlooked prohormone that no one has really developed or polished upon. PP did with AndroBulk, but it enjoyed relatively little recognition in the short timeframe it was available. Hopefully someone else will run with this one some day.

Stay tuned!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nate3993]

5-DHEA is plain DHEA :)

4-dhea is what i meant.

- - - Updated - - -

and right hook, you're correct. i misread

[Freepressright]

Stay tuned!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the kind of thing I like to hear!

[Sperwer]

This is the kind of thing I like to hear!

What do you guys think about transdermal patches as a possibility. They are quite common here as a delivery system fir everything from simple analgesics to very sophisticated cancer drugs. They are minimize the buttered toast effect and if you are a little flexible open the possibility of using your back and thus significantly enlarging the effective application area, without having to involve someone else. My designated OEM is a bit of a specialist in this area and we now are exploring delivery effectiveness and price feasibility for some compounds. The only downside i see is having to "wear" one for a number of hours. Having lived here a long time and gotten used to it myself, it's a no brainer to me. But others may feel differently. Comments?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m/)

[milehighguy]

How long would you wear the patch? What type of compounds are you talking about?

I don't see why not. Do we know the effectiveness of the delivery via a patch?

[Sperwer]

How long would you wear the patch? What type of compounds are you talking about?

I don't see why not. Do we know the effectiveness of the delivery via a patch?

Good questions. We are working on the assumption that effectiveness has to be as good as TD cream or gel, and will be testing for that. Time on target similarly will be no more than the 5-6 hours currently recommended for eg Dermacrine, Sustain A, AndroEnhance, etc - less if we can engineer it. Potential candidate compounds include pretty much everything formerly in PP's repertoire


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m/)

[Grape Ape]

How large of a patch?

[Sperwer]

How large of a patch?

Another good question; also to be determined as required by the size necessary to facilitate TD delivery of the target dosages. A LOT larger than youe average bandage, that's for sure, even pushing 6x6 in some instances.

QUESTION IS: WOULD PEOPLE PREFER THIS TO REGULAR TD CREAM/GEL APPLICATION, LET ALONE GELCAP, ASSUMING SUPERIOR DELIVERY OF BIOAVAILABLE DOSES AT A COMPETITIVE PRICE

[Freepressright]

Lots of people use methyl B12 patches nowadays, and they wear nicotine patches. I love the idea of PH patch.

[nate3993]

Yeah. I think as long as delivery is solid and price is similar, anyone would be willing to stick these on their balls if it worked. Patch is not an "out there" idea at all sperwer. I can assure you that.

[Right Hook]

Lots of people use methyl B12 patches nowadays, and they wear nicotine patches. I love the idea of PH patch.

A normal B12 dose is around 500mcg's. that's something you can easily fit on a patch. Several milligrams....not so easy. For example Testopatch is only capable of carrying 30mgs in a patch that covers a forearm under side.

[Freepressright]

I'll be curious to see what the size of the patches will be.

[Right Hook]

I'll be curious to see what the size of the patches will be.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/04/re3arumu.jpg

[Freepressright]

This was a successful product. I loved it. You can see the dosages in the pic. That would be hard to get all that in a patch.

852853

[nate3993]

introducing....AndroPatch! seriously thinking about trademarking that.

[h2s]

introducing....AndroPatch! seriously thinking about trademarking that.

Good luck!

855

[nate3993]

Sonuvabitch! I checked the online trademark database. Said it wasn't used.

[Sperwer]

It may not have been in the US. AP was a Euro, specifically Brit, brand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m/)

[nate3993]

Aha! So I can still trademark it and force you to pay me for using it right ;)

[Sperwer]

You can try. Last time someone fucked with me legally, i got his house, the taxman got the rest of his money and he got to spend 2 years in the big house for the tax fraud i uncovered and dropped a dime on him for ;))


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m/)