Medical Help Needed for My Father's Patient

[nate3993]

So my dad has a patient whose in his 30's and was on deca for a year. And his teste's shrunk, surprise surprise, and started using hcg as a means to get his balls working again. Obviously this person knew not of what they were doing. My dad prescribed him clomid, and actually asked me if I thought there was anything else he should do. I recommend aromasin since the clomid may very well get his levels high again, but as we all know, boost your test high enough, even naturally and you're gonna have a large amount of estrogen because of aromatase. This is new territory for my father. He generally doesn't deal with people who have been on and never cycled properly. He just does standard trt protocol.

What all do you guys think I should recommend? Thanks

[milehighguy]

Deca for a full year.....probably happens more then you think.

If the HCG didn't work clomid would have been my next pick. Plus maybe some natty supps.

[olddawg]

obviously jj or infamy would be invaluable to chime in here, i'd guess he'd want him in for bloods more often, idunno, maybe 2 weeks in to check on estrogen and adjust the aromasin, then at the end of the clomid, then again later while natty, say 6 weeks after being off. he'll likely want clomid for 6 weeks no? I have no business answering here but you know me well enough I think to take my advice all the right way. --loosely lol

[nate3993]

Deca for a full year.....probably happens more then you think.

If the HCG didn't work clomid would have been my next pick. Plus maybe some natty supps.
MHG. come on. HCG is NOT a pct drug. this has been discussed over and over. HCG has 2 applications. 1-to keep the leydig cells still active ON cycle and 2-to be taken while on TRT, and again for the leydig cells and fertility, but HCG is most certainly not a pct drug.

[milehighguy]

So tell me what is PCT for a years worth of DECA?

I know what HCG does. But thanks for the reminder.

[nate3993]

So tell me what is PCT for a years worth of DECA?

I know what HCG does. But thanks for the reminder.

sorry if my last post came off as hostile. i apologize for that. to my knowledge, a serm and an AI, such as exem would be good. Maybe hcg is needed and I'm looking at this incorrectly. since his testes haven't had leydig cells for a while, then hcg may actually be good.

[nate3993]

sorry for being condescending i should've said.

[milehighguy]

All good. I'm right in the same boat with my response.

AI with clomid does make sense.

[Grape Ape]

HCG is used for a matter of weeks before a serm durring most HPTA restarts. Usually in high doses.

My opinion; Time off will be his best bet, and there's no rushing that.

[olddawg]

^^this on the hcg, use prior. I've never heard of anything that works well other than what you are saying Nate, only thing is to do it for a longer period of time for hard shutdowns like tren or something like this. Hope the guy is young enough for it to work.

[Jelisej]

If HCG did not make his testicles work, then chances with clomid are thin as well.

[nate3993]

Well I have no idea how much he hook or how often. Or if it it was even legit. What do you think? Just go on trt?

[Grape Ape]

Blood work and then a full restart protocol, or 6 months off then PCT.

Out of my realm. HRT should be last resort though IMO.

[Jelisej]

We both have no idea really as we dont have no enough info, but he can give it one more shot- if his testicals are still shrunken then go for classical HCG 250 3X a week, this dosage may not be best really to make him feel well, but as long as his testicles are responding- obviously he needs to do bloodwork- if his testicles are so-so, than he may go straight to clomid- and he does not need a lot of clomid- 12.5 a day or 25 eod is enough- then after few bloodworkd we'll see how his testicles are responding- if not, than testosterone shots is option AFAIK, as simplisticly said- clomid basically raise LH which then stimulates testicles to produce testosterone- so basically testicles are still doing hard work.

[Jelisej]

Blood work and then a full restart protocol, or 6 months off then PCT.

Out of my realm. HRT should be last resort though IMO.

Simply said- Restart protocol is basically same as restarting computer when program is playing up, restarting it usually solves problem- but if problem is in hardware than it does not help.


HRT is last resort, but there are not many resorts,
personally I dont count boosting natural test with sport supplements as a "resort" as techically its similar to HRT only much less effective and much more expensive.

[burlyman30]

I'm not a big fan of Michael Scally personally, but he is renowned for getting patients restarted by blasting hcg along with serm/ai protocol. You can probably find his restart protocol on Google.

[milehighguy]

I'm not a big fan of Michael Scally personally, but he is renowned for getting patients restarted by blasting hcg along with serm/ai protocol. You can probably find his restart protocol on Google.

I have a few books that include details on a restart. They are pretty aggressive. J will cringe when he reads this one...

HCG = 2,000 IU every other day for fourteen injections.

Arimidex = 1mg per day

On day 29 HCG is done and this is where Clomid comes into play. 50mg twice a day!

They say right at the end of this section "HCG/Arimidex/Clomid therapy is not a perfect way to re-institute normal T production quickly, but it can work very well"

I am not advocating this nor am I qualified to give expert advice here. Just found Burly's comment interesting and thought I would share. What I have listed here is directly from a book by Michael Mooney and Nelson Vergel. The book focuses on restart protocols for long term anabolic use for people using things like DECA to prevent wasting. And the book is probably a little dated.

[xxiv]

I have a few books that include details on a restart. They are pretty aggressive. J will cringe when he reads this one...

HCG = 2,000 IU every other day for fourteen injections.

Arimidex = 1mg per day

On day 29 HCG is done and this is where Clomid comes into play. 50mg twice a day!

They say right at the end of this section "HCG/Arimidex/Clomid therapy is not a perfect way to re-institute normal T production quickly, but it can work very well"


agressive is an understatement.... that being said, if i had an rx for that ride... I'd take it.

[Grape Ape]

If TRT is your next best option, then I wouldn't see an issue with the high HCG restart protocol given the fact your under proper medical supervision and willing to take the time knowing the outcome could be sub par.

I'm not on the up and up with the adverse effects of high dose HCG though. Aromatization of course, but at what point is the LH desensitization a serious factor?

[Jelisej]

MLH, I did cringe, big time.
On serious side- there was lot of feedback from people that what was then considered lower doses like 150-300 IU of HCG works better with less sides, later some research was done and confirmed that actually 250 IU of HCG is around same or even bit More effective than 500 IU, tough there is an strong "subjective factor" meaning for some guys higher doses are bit better, consensus is that no more than 500 IU per shot or no more than 2000 IU a week should be used- you can ask any top endo and they will confirm you this.

Now; there is a trick- sidenafil/viagra amplifies HCG, clomid or even LH in testicles, mixed nuts also increase sensitivity of Leydig cells plus they have some nutritional valuse that also helps in hormonal pathways, adding vitamin d is good idea, and voilà

Also, with clomid or tamoxifene- for what I saw, and I think research confirms that 10 mg a day of tamoxifene, and 25 mg of clomid are max. dose, even smaller doses are quite effective.

[nate3993]

Thanks for all the help guys. All the info has been passed into my father. Much appreciated.