Dopamine, Prolactin, Marijuana, GYNO!

[weekend]

I've realized why my gyno got so swole after my test-e cycle.

Marijuana isn't talked about that much in bodybuilding forums; it has been reported to cause gyno in a large amount of people in non-AAS users. My first instinct when hearing this was that maybe it lowers test a bit, increasing estro and then of course you're likely to eat more fast food type crap and less of anything requiring prep (vegetables?!).

Though I knew marijuana was bad for gyno, I kept smoking it through most of my cycle and post cycle... And all summer. It sucks when literally everyone you know smokes weed, but that's another story.

Marijuana is known to cause a REDUCTION in DOPAMINE.

What do we use to prevent prolactin increases from 19-nor steroids? DOPAMINE AGONISTS

Dopamine, I have learned, is also sometimes referred to as "prolactin inhibiting hormone".
Thus, smoking marijuana reduces dopamine, in turn increasing prolactin.

In post cycle, the effect of prolactin is multiplied greatly by the lower quantity of androgens present and potentially the increased amount of estrogens. (Also, since steroids increase quantity of steroid receptors, there is a potential for the ratio of androgen receptors filled to those not filled to be lower, causing a lower overall androgenic effect than pre cycle even if your test levels have returned, but that's another story).

When I used letro and ralox, nothing happened to the gyno. Maybe a 10-20% decrease in sensitivity and size, but that wasnt much. When I started prami, sensitivity dropped by at least 50% FAST! With size of glandular tissue dropping somewhat quickly over time.

I honestly believe that weed was the main reason I got lumps post cycle; having guided a few friends through similar cycles with much more anti estrogen precautions than I took, none of them got gyno except one... The one who smokes weed all day every day!

Anyway, moral of the story is that you should probably not smoke weed on cycle much and rarely if at all during post cycle. If you are a chronic daily smoker, consider quitting before cycling; gyno might be right around the corner.

If you're going to smoke during post cycle, I would figure prami or caber will work more powerfully than the weed, preventing gyno. But these drugs obviously have sides. Basically, treat weed as if it's tren or deca when it comes to gyno.

[weekend]

Another side note: DHT and many of it's derivatives increase dopamine... They are also known to reduce gyno.

[Jelisej]

If there is not sufficient E2 there is no gyno either, its that simple.

Prolactin has its importance, belive it or not, and nuking it is not good idea either. Also dopamine agonist can quite effectively mess up dopamine receptors which is really bad thing IMO.

[nate3993]

Eh. Is it confirmed that weed actually lowers ur dopamine? I was reading that the science behind that is flawed. But who knows. Studies can be majorly flawed. And like j said. Gyno= estro. Plain and simple. And we know weed doesn't lower ur test, increase ur estro, or vice versa. The only way marijuana is gonna affect your hormones would be indirectly with ur diet, as you mentioned.


Plus. I notice a major libido increase from weed. Indica's much more so than Sativas. I can confirm though the mechanism for the libido increase though. Vein dilation. Plain and simple. Every work out high? You get better pumps. But basing better pumps as the reason would just be bro science, and we here at swole source aren't about dat shit so lemme lay it down scienmitifocally ;)

Dr. Donald Taskin of UCLA did a 30 year combined study on heavy marijuana users, people who smoked daily, heavy tobacco smokers, and people who smoke NOTHING. You know what he found? A couple things.

Number 1. Unlike tobacco which is a vasoconstrictor, marijuana actually DILATES pulmonary veins. So we can confirm through science that lung veins become dilated. Then you combine that with the fact that working out high increases pumps, I'm not the only person to experience this I promise, and then the fact that marijuana DOESN'T directly affect hormone levels, so where does this libido increase come from??? Vein dilation! It's the only thing that would make sense. I mean. Possibly activating the cannabinoid receptors in some other way also increases arousal, but dilating veins would make a helluva lot of sense. I guess it's still pseudo bro science and it is just my hypothesis, but it's quite the educated hypothesis.

What else did Dr. Taskin find though? People who smoke weed regularly have LESS cancer than people who smoke NOTHING at all. Yeah. That's right. Weed truly is anti cancer.

And here's the US gov. admitting it cures cancer.
Cannabis and Cannabinoids (PDQ®) - National Cancer Institute
(http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cannabis/healthprofessional/page4)



So what did we learn boys? For a great anti cancer, dick hardening time, toke it up!:cool:

[Grape Ape]

In between sets here, but I remember reading a few years ago that marijuana lowers prolactin. Might just have been he say she say though. I'll be back.

[Freepressright]

I'm old school in this respect, but if you're into a fitness endeavor, why the hell do you want to inhale smoke into your lungs? To each their own, I don't judge. I have no problem with pot, I just couldn't see a place for it in my life these days.

[nate3993]

u can vaporize it, eat it, drink it. and now my cousin's pot grower just invented the first water vapor liquid that you can stick in your e cig. no smell. very discreet.

the only negative they've found to heavy use of it being smoked was that lung capacity will go down a few percent. like going from 100 to 93, but it's nothing that would impact your life in any way. you wouldn't know you went from 100 to 93. but again, if it's that much of a concern, there's quite a few other options to get high.

you could just eat a lollipop and get baked off ur ass. it's pretty non threatening. i do understand not wanting to smoke, but again, it's been shown that the most minimal "damage" is done from smoking pot.

[Freepressright]

But the resin from it is essentially about the same thing as tar from nicotine, isn't it?

[weekend]

^ no. I have smoked a lot of pot many days in a row and felt fine, then I smoke a single cigarette and the next day my lungs feel like a trash can.

Yes it is confirmed dopamine is lowered by weed. Weed is guaranteed to raise prolactin. And it's next to impossible to reduce estrogen to zero, and it would be uncomfortable. Ill go back and find the studies I was referring to later, but I know it makes it worse because my nipples are 2x as sensitive after smoking and become much more puffy. Dopamine is crucial for motivation... Makes sense why being stoned makes one do a lot less.

And I don't get better pumps when I'm high, sex is also not as good for me lol

[weekend]

Haha "tar from nicotine"? What does that mean anyway? Nicotine is not tar. Tobacco contains tsna (tobacco specific nitrosamines) that weed doesn't. Thc increases coughing and the lung cleaning reflex while being anti cancer. Nicotine suppresses the movement of cilia and the coughing reflex. Weed is just far better for your lungs in general. I use a volcano most of the time anyway.

[Freepressright]

I meant from cigarettes. Not sure why I said from nicotine.

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I only ask these questions because I don't use it. I'm fine with anyone who chooses to use it. It's safer than alcohol, IMHO.

[Grape Ape]

Ever cross your mind that your gyno may have worsened because you were on cycle?

Results
"At socially relevant doses, Δ-9-THC raised plasma cortisol levels in a dose-dependent manner but frequent users showed blunted increases relative to healthy controls. Frequent users also had lower baseline plasma prolactin levels relative to healthy controls."

The effects of cannabinoids on serum cortisol and prolactin in humans (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2863108/?report=classic)

[LBC-83]

A little off topic but now that Big Brother has decided not to prosecute Washington or Colorado for decriminalizing pot for recreational use, it is just a matter of time before its legal across the country.

My wife has severe Crohn's disease and would benefit greatly from MJ, I on the other hand would just enjoy the contact highs. ;)

[nate3993]

Def get ur wife some pot. Even if it's not legal. She needs some relief and big pharma drugs suck

[pman42]

OK, so if estrogen = gyno, why did mine get WORSE when I was taking 1.25mg of letro daily with no raloxifene? only when I added the ralox (and greatly reduced the letro) did the gyno start regressing.

[weekend]

Cause your letro might have been bunk.. Or maybe it was prolactin and letro can't nuke estro hard enough for prolactin not to do work

[Jelisej]

If prolactin cause gyno, I would have bigger boobs than Lady Gaga.
It can make one feel unconfortable, in some cases it can cause secretion of milk- maybe bit swollen glands- but no gyno.


Preventing surge in E2 will prevent gyno, but if person has gyno already than nuking E2 is not going to rid of it, but creating good androgen-estrogens (in favour of androgens) balance will do the trick, if gyno has been to long or became fibrous than liposuction is probably better option.

[pman42]

Yeah, that makes sense.

So beyond AAS which I have ruled out due to recovering my natural hormonal levels, what would create a favorable androgen: estrogen ratio? I am on the ralox and that seems to be slowly but surely taking away the gyno. Other things I supplement with are zinc (mild aromatase inhibitor), maca (mild effect on hormones in favor or eliminating estrogen) and lots of cruciferous veggies in diet. I am also trying to reduce estrogenic foods like dairy. even organic dairy has tons of hormones due to the fact that it usually comes from a pregnant cow.

I was thinking that when the Primordial resurrection happens I will start a proper 4 month cycle of Andro Hard since 1 month on it did definitely cause regression and it would be less suppressive than, say, masteron.

my other idea is to increase the raloxifene to 120mg daily and maybe slightly increase the letro, but like I said, when I was just on letro I did not get any reduction and in fact I think the gyno got worse.

just for clarification, we are talking about gyno as in nodular lumps under the nipple. It is not noticeable unless one were to touch it, but it is something I want to get rid of fully (esp. since being on letro and raloxifene will compromise any bloodwork I do with an endo to fix my other problem, insufficient testosterone levels).

[weekend]

^add prami... it will shrink fast! Forget the letro, 120 ralox might help but I don't think I noticed much difference. When I took prami at higher doses (was up to .7 mg/day at one point) my nips would stay hard all day and never puff up unless... I smoked weed! lol

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My glandular tissue is down to 1/3 of its previous size and I'm on no anti-gyno drugs. Chest fat has increased due to bad diet, going to start dieting properly again in about a week when I am moved into my new place.

[weekend]

I used ralox for 7 months at an average dose of 60 mg/day

Used arimidex, masteron, almost 200 mg letro, tons of aromasin and only prami and masteron made a difference that was noticeable and definitely attributable to their administration. I'm sure the other stuff did something but it was slow. And cumulatively low estro at the end of all the AIs was shitty feeling.

[Jelisej]

Pman, I would say that you are doing all right things, I would suggest you to add mixed nuts (wallnuts, hazelnuts, almonds etc...) this is a good test booster.
I had gyno on few occasions (none of them were caused by aas/ph) and twice I left it to nature and it took well over 6 months to disapear, third time was bit worse and I already had lost patience so I used proviron, and gyno was gone under two months- I took 2X 25 mg a day, libido and erections were slightly improved, I havent noticed much effect on exercise or body composition.

As for raloxifene and letrozole, you'll have to ask others, the one thing that crosses my mind is that you had "estrogen rebound" and that made gyno worse, I had quite an issues with E2 and I remeber when I used arimidex it would lower my E2 buy the next evening I would have rebound and it was strange experience.

[pman42]

I was under the impression that letro had a longer half-life so the rebound was more of a concern when coming off the letro. that's why when I make any moves to decrease dose, I do it slowly over a period of weeks. .625mg every 3 days seems to be the sweet spot of no achy joints or absolutely garbage libido, but also enough E2 suppression to let the ralox do its job in a favorable environment.

[pman42]

Jelisej, you're saying that prolactin in extreme cases could cause lactation but not gyno? so if i have somewhat hard tissue under the nipple that is NOT prolactin related but due to estrogen?

I believe the gyno got worse when I was taking trazodone, which is known to increase prolactin. there are even case reports of it causing lactation in men, so pretty extreme prolactin increases/

Jeli, are you saying the prolactin-reducing route will not be effective for established gyno? currently the ralox/letro is slowly but surely doing its job. I expect to be on it for another 4-6 months, unless the PP resurrection happens sooner in which case I will go right into AndroHard.

[weekend]

I bet prami will reduce it faster than anything else. Or caber.

[Jelisej]

As far as I know, prolactin can make uncomfortable feelings in glands under breasts, lactation etc- but not gyno itself- now, I may be proveng wrong in future, but AFAIK majority of people with gyno do have elevated prolactin levels, but majority of people with elevated prolactin levels dont have gyno.
On other hand prolactin itself is involved in steroidology and some of it is needed, and as a fact when people get reduced prolactin to nothing fast people do not react well- throwing up, feeling dizzy, weak, falling asleep.
I think lot of people exaggerate prolactin problems, I have sometimes prolactin levels 5X over the top, and people sometimes have 100X over top.
Also when my E2 is in check, I have no symptoms of gyno whatsoever regardless of prl- on other hand some stuff for example caffeine drinks make feel my nipples somewhat strange, itchy, but I dont get gyno.

Some medications that reduce prolactin levels reduce GH as well. Pramipexole increases GH, but name itself makes me feel sick, stuff could be used in Guantanamo prison as torture method.

[pman42]

thst is interesting as even coffe is supposed to cause nodular cysts in breast (benign) in women who imbibe.