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BBG
09-17-2013, 04:32 PM
Hey guys,

Do you think the effects of tren on the heart are much worse than other steroids? In particular do you think methyls are worse for the heart than tren would be?

burlyman30
09-17-2013, 06:26 PM
As far as I know, there is no research on trenbolone's effect on the heart. However, you could extrapolate from research done on other nortestosterone compounds like nandrolone.

I can tell you this... I've done a lot of blood work over the past year, and my moderate tren usage has not affected my lipids negatively. This, of course, is only one indicator of heart health.

One thing that steroids, as a whole, tend to do is enlarge the heart. I would expect this with any AAS. What are the long term effects of this? Possibly surgery down the road, but that's not a given.

JM1000
09-17-2013, 06:45 PM
One thing that steroids, as a whole, tend to do is enlarge the heart. I would expect this with any AAS. What are the long term effects of this? Possibly surgery down the road, but that's not a given.

enlargement of coronary arteries is a side effect of aas in general. I am GUESSING that it is also dose dependant. Good old Arny is a good example with his 2 or 3 open heart surgeries.

I'm also guessing Tren is not the best one for your heart ;)

BBG
09-18-2013, 03:20 AM
Sometimes I feel like the long-term effects aren't justified.

I wonder if we can look at pro bodybuilders who have died (Nasser at 47, for instance) at young ages and say steroids had A LOT to do with it. Or was it more the use of diuretics, pain killers (Matt Duval in his 30s), high blood pressure/other effects of being so enormous, really terrible off season diets, etc...

And yes I've been off for months and just wondering about these things.

O_RYAN_007
09-18-2013, 04:44 AM
Sometimes I feel like the long-term effects aren't justified.

I wonder if we can look at pro bodybuilders who have died (Nasser at 47, for instance) at young ages and say steroids had A LOT to do with it. Or was it more the use of diuretics, pain killers (Matt Duval in his 30s), high blood pressure/other effects of being so enormous, really terrible off season diets, etc...

And yes I've been off for months and just wondering about these things.

I have the same questions and concerns.

olddawg
09-18-2013, 05:39 AM
I would bet that hgh is worse for the heart at higher doses than tren. If you're lookin to live to 90, then get off everything and stay off.

BBG
09-18-2013, 06:42 AM
I would bet that hgh is worse for the heart at higher doses than tren. If you're lookin to live to 90, then get off everything and stay off.

Nah I don't mean that I want to live to be an old decrepit guy. I understand the difference in living to 90 and not living how you wanted and hitting 60 and dropping dead that day but having lived more than most 90 year olds ever did.

Maybe I am just over estimating the effects of these drugs on the heart.

olddawg
09-18-2013, 06:45 AM
my understanding is that it is, just like muscle, temporary and improves once you are off thus the importance of taking time off just as your muscles will shrink back down. But the big boys=no time off so they are pushing it to the limits.

Right Hook
09-18-2013, 07:31 AM
I wrote on this topic earlier this year when Ed Vann Amsterdam died. Since then a couple more IFBB pros have died (although both were likely due to electrolyte imbalance). I do believe tren is going to be worse on your heart over time. I believe there is even some animal research to support my statement. Also keep in mind weight training creates added stress on the heart.

There is new research as well as some case studies I reference here - Steroids, Prohormones, and Heart Health – RIP Ed Van Amsterdam | Lean Bulk Articles (http://www.leanbulk.com/articles/prohormone-heart-health/)

xxiv
09-18-2013, 07:57 AM
I wonder if we can look at pro bodybuilders who have died (Nasser at 47, for instance) at young ages and say steroids had A LOT to do with it. Or was it more the use of diuretics, pain killers (Matt Duval in his 30s), high blood pressure/other effects of being so enormous, really terrible off season diets, etc...


When using pro bodybuilders longevity to assess the risk of a single compund were are comparing apples to apple pie, there are way to many compenets in the pro bb lifestyle that would cut a mans life short.

A great deal of the misunderstanding about steroids come from the negative media attention, i wish there was a way to seperate the tragedy from the triumph but there isn't. With all the physical and emotional stress body building put a person through its no shock that these guys are dropping like flies in the primes of their lives. It is very unfortunate.

burlyman30
09-18-2013, 08:31 AM
I wrote on this topic earlier this year when Ed Vann Amsterdam died. Since then a couple more IFBB pros have died (although both were likely due to electrolyte imbalance). I do believe tren is going to be worse on your heart over time. I believe there is even some animal research to support my statement. Also keep in mind weight training creates added stress on the heart.

There is new research as well as some case studies I reference here - Steroids, Prohormones, and Heart Health – RIP Ed Van Amsterdam | Lean Bulk Articles (http://www.leanbulk.com/articles/prohormone-heart-health/)

Nice article.

BBG
09-18-2013, 08:40 AM
Very nice article RH.

XXIV, I agree. There are tons and tons of things that would make a top tier bodybuilder end up dying young. Steroids are just one thing, but sometimes I think we as people who admire bodybuilders want to believe steroids have a lesser impact than they really do.

Freepressright
09-18-2013, 11:55 AM
We know that in morbidly obese people who have run their cardiac health into the toilet that their hearts undergo "remodeling" after drastic weight loss. There are studies (although I don't have the links handy) that demonstrate this. I think you can apply common wisdom here and safely assume that a shit ton of the harsher steroids over a prolonged time period are going to have a plethora of negative health implications -- up to and including cardiac events.

You can abuse your heart in any number of ways through the years and be lucky enough to nurse it back to health with lifestyle changes. I don't know that I'd want to roll the dice with prolonged blasting and count on that being the case, but hopefully my three methyl cycles in my life won't put me on the operating table later on.

Jelisej
09-18-2013, 04:39 PM
This is not my strongest topic but simply put-
IMO the main problem with heart is that as every muscle it does have tendency to grow (somewhat) and main issue is as it grows it loses elasticity in some places, where it actually needs to be elastic- and AAS can add here, also I think Growth Hormone is probably worse than many steroids
Other thing is that heart also has its own "voltage" and for example thyroid hormones have big effect on it (or things that affect thyroid hormones), and big changes in here can cause your heart to shift its regular beating pattern in a condition known as ventricular fibrillation. If this happens, your heart muscles go out of whack- sometimes this reverses, but sometimes not-

Other thing not often mentioned is- kidneys and there are lot of reports of damage done here, usually damage is not too big but it is irreversible, so it only can get worse

ultimately it does come to genetics- but how many people have prefect genetics?
Few cycles in a lifetime is OK, but not too many as damage piles up, and also HPTA recovers more slowly so eventually something starts giving up...

weekend
09-18-2013, 06:41 PM
ultimately it does come to genetics- but how many people have prefect genetics?
Few cycles in a lifetime is OK, but not too many as damage piles up, and also HPTA recovers more slowly so eventually something starts giving up...

How many is a few?

JM1000
09-18-2013, 09:04 PM
Clearly not enough lol!

Jelisej
09-19-2013, 06:32 AM
How many is a few?

I ask myself this question... Too many variables, some people can handle one-or-two only, some can go on for a years, I guess thorough check up after some cycles would give an answer to particular person.



Bigger, Stronger, Faster* - Heart Scans (Deleted Scene) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znNbFq4R8xY)

Bit on a positive side, deleted scene from "bigger, stronger, faster".

h2s
09-19-2013, 07:30 PM
Ignorance is bliss.

Just kidding.

Kinda.

Sparky
09-21-2013, 08:57 AM
I had a medical doc buddy send me an article on some current research showing there is mo difference on athletic loading to the heart regardless of the exercise. I will post it up in a different thread.

The level of multiple steroids, HGH, prescription drugs, illicit drugs, and other compounds on the biomechanical machine we call our bodies is unclear and highly individual. As others have stated, genetics are a huge part.

Comparisons could be drawn to life long illicit drug users or smokers/alcoholics who live into there 90's. Overall longevity is still a mystery.

Sparky

sent using Tapatalk Forum 2

olddawg
09-21-2013, 10:11 AM
[QUOTE=h2s;26946]Ignorance is ignorant bliss.

QUOTE]

fixed

Right Hook
09-21-2013, 09:03 PM
I had a medical doc buddy send me an article on some current research showing there is mo difference on athletic loading to the heart regardless of the exercise. I will post it up in a different thread.

The level of multiple steroids, HGH, prescription drugs, illicit drugs, and other compounds on the biomechanical machine we call our bodies is unclear and highly individual. As others have stated, genetics are a huge part.

Comparisons could be drawn to life long illicit drug users or smokers/alcoholics who live into there 90's. Overall longevity is still a mystery.

Sparky

sent using Tapatalk Forum 2

There is overwhelming research that says the opposite. Would love to see this paper.

Sperwer
10-08-2013, 11:44 PM
Anabolic steroids and the heart - Are the risks overblown?

"There is no evidence that LV ejection fraction in elite athletes is altered by either type of training or AAS misuse"

That's not what I say, but what a recent study from the University of Belgrade says. The scientists had compared a total of 20 elite strength athletes (10 AAS users and 10 non-users) to 12 steroid-free endurance athletes and found:

"No significant differences in ejection fraction and cardiac output were observed among the groups, although mildly reduced LV ejection fraction was seen only in the AAS users."

What the scientists did yet observe was a significant beneficial effects of endurance training on LV diastolic function - at least compared to strength training (with and without AAS).www.suppversity.com (http://www.suppversity.com/)

Reference: Ilic et al. The impact of anabolic androgenic steroids abuse and type of training on left ventricular remodeling and function in competitive athletes. Vojnosanitetski Pregled. 2013. UDC: 61:79]::616.12.

burlyman30
10-09-2013, 12:10 AM
Wow.. I learned something new about LV remodeling not being specific to mode of exercise and find the small difference that AAS usage affects the heart (in these tests) to be quite surprising. However, I am glad to read this.

O.N.
10-09-2013, 07:55 AM
Be sure to read post #5 and #6 this was a list i started a long time ago and never got to finish:
Middle Aged Dead Bodybuilders (http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/bodybuilding-news/2748-middle-aged-dead-bodybuilders.html#post48689)

I think from memory from the last time i updated the list it contained 108 different steroid using subjects, eg bodybuilders, wrestlers, powerlifters, strongman etc all died of heart related conditions and the average age was 38.

Also to note i think i removed normal causes of death from the list that could be ruled out as not associated to steroid use.

This list has had a lot of attention and skepticism from those who defend steroid use however it remains to be said that many many of these people were "healthy looking" from the outside eg visible abs etc ate correctly to achieve the body image they showed yet all had heart problems at very young ages.

The point being i dont think we can gather a list of 108 subjects from say "soccer" or "tennis" that all died of heart problems with the average age being only 38.....

Right Hook
10-09-2013, 10:51 AM
Anabolic steroids and the heart - Are the risks overblown?

"There is no evidence that LV ejection fraction in elite athletes is altered by either type of training or AAS misuse"

That's not what I say, but what a recent study from the University of Belgrade says. The scientists had compared a total of 20 elite strength athletes (10 AAS users and 10 non-users) to 12 steroid-free endurance athletes and found:

"No significant differences in ejection fraction and cardiac output were observed among the groups, although mildly reduced LV ejection fraction was seen only in the AAS users."

What the scientists did yet observe was a significant beneficial effects of endurance training on LV diastolic function - at least compared to strength training (with and without AAS).www.suppversity.com (http://www.suppversity.com/)

Reference: Ilic et al. The impact of anabolic androgenic steroids abuse and type of training on left ventricular remodeling and function in competitive athletes. Vojnosanitetski Pregled. 2013. UDC: 61:79]::616.12.

Do you have a link to the full article on suppversity? I cannot find it.

burlyman30
10-09-2013, 02:17 PM
Be sure to read post #5 and #6 this was a list i started a long time ago and never got to finish:
Middle Aged Dead Bodybuilders (http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/bodybuilding-news/2748-middle-aged-dead-bodybuilders.html#post48689)

I think from memory from the last time i updated the list it contained 108 different steroid using subjects, eg bodybuilders, wrestlers, powerlifters, strongman etc all died of heart related conditions and the average age was 38.

Also to note i think i removed normal causes of death from the list that could be ruled out as not associated to steroid use.

This list has had a lot of attention and skepticism from those who defend steroid use however it remains to be said that many many of these people were "healthy looking" from the outside eg visible abs etc ate correctly to achieve the body image they showed yet all had heart problems at very young ages.

The point being i dont think we can gather a list of 108 subjects from say "soccer" or "tennis" that all died of heart problems with the average age being only 38.....

While I cannot dispute the heart related deaths in steroid users, I do have to wonder what other factors come in to play here. Dosage levels, diet, and genetic heart issues are ones that come to mind.

And while I can't argue for steroids when it comes to heart health, I could probably make a list of highschool kids who have died on the basketball court or the running track or football field that would likely outnumber your list.

Sperwer
10-09-2013, 06:54 PM
Do you have a link to the full article on suppversity? I cannot find it.

He didn't write a full article, just the short statement i quoted, which he posted on facebook. His facebook posts are collected on the main web page in a section halfway done in the righthand sidebar


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

O.N.
10-09-2013, 07:49 PM
While I cannot dispute the heart related deaths in steroid users, I do have to wonder what other factors come in to play here. Dosage levels, diet, and genetic heart issues are ones that come to mind.

And while I can't argue for steroids when it comes to heart health, I could probably make a list of highschool kids who have died on the basketball court or the running track or football field that would likely outnumber your list.

Yes we do not know what other drugs if any were used at the time or what dose of steroids were used but the main point is the large scale and the average age. As I said previously, I dont think we can gather a list of 108 subjects from say "soccer" or "tennis" that all died of heart problems with the average age being only 38.....

Remember the list i ruled out other causes and removed those from the list such as car accident, cancer etc.

The last part i will say about this list is we all are very aware that steroids drastically effect cholesterol, LDL and HDL levels. Which has been known for a long time to play a role in heart disease.

I'll end that there for no further comment from me, you may defend steroid use all you like and yes there is no study which proves these people died from steroids but the autopsies do indicate heart disease in what appears to be very very healthy people who eat correctly and exercise most of their lives with a common denominator that they all do the right things health wise other than take steroids.

Do steroids give you heart disease? No but they do really mess up your cholesterol values......we all know what that leads to

burlyman30
10-09-2013, 08:18 PM
I'm not sure how you took my statement as "defending steroid use", because clearly I did not argue that heart issues can arise. I just find your compiled list as underwhelming when I look at other statistics. For instance, the American Academy of Pediatrics estimated that 2,000 people under the age of 25 die from sudden cardiac arrest every year.

So then the question has to be asked, "what are the factors involved in the deaths of these young people?" Diet? Drugs? Exercise?

According to the American Heart Association, "sudden cardiac arrest in a young person stems from a structural defect in the heart or a problem with its electrical circuitry and hypertrophic cardiomyopathy accounts for 40% of all cases."

Among cases in youth, it appears that it occurs about 3x more frequently in competitive athletes than those who are sedentary.

Getting back to the original point... if you don't want to risk heart damage from steroids... don't take steroids! How serious is the risk? I believe there are too many factors to be able to say with any accuracy. So, educate yourself prior to using AAS/PH compounds and don't take their usage lightly. Your life is in your very own hands, so make the most educated decisions you can about your continued longevity.

O.N.
10-09-2013, 09:04 PM
I
Among cases in youth, it appears that it occurs about 3x more frequently in competitive athletes than those who are sedentary.


That's an alarming fact. Sorry if you took my statement as "you" defending steroid use I was speaking in general terms to all. I have had many heated debates about this subject since i hold a passion for not using steroids after my own personal loss of a friend and my own health issues from over 10yrs of misuse of steroids.

milehighguy
10-09-2013, 09:31 PM
I hold a passion for not using steroids after my own personal loss of a friend and my own health issues from over 10yrs of misuse of steroids.

Could you elaborate a bit when you say 10 yrs of misuse of steroids?

I get your POV and really I am just curious to know how much gear you did over that period of time. Were there other drugs you also took during the same time (insulin, DNP, etc...)?

Interesting thread here...

Sperwer
10-10-2013, 07:24 AM
It may very well be that the principal culprits could be, as Burly suggested, genetic predisposition and, as indicated the following study, the overtraining characterstic of the population segment involved:

Running a Marathon Can Be Bad for the Heart, Especially in Less Prepared Runners, Say Experts
09 October 2013 Elsevier

Heart muscle changes are more common and widespread in runners with lower fitness and less training, according to new study in the Canadian Journal of Cardiology

Investigators who studied a group of recreational marathon runners have established that strenuous exercise such as running a marathon can damage the heart muscle. Although they found the effect is temporary and reversible, they warn that these effects are more widespread in less fit distance runners and that recreational distance runners should prepare properly before marathons. Their findings are published in the October issue of the Canadian Journal of Cardiology.

Previous reports have established that a significant percentage of sports competitors show signs of heart muscle injury and cardiac abnormalities after prolonged exercise. In a new study designed to evaluate what kind of stress running a marathon puts on the heart, and whether this might cause permanent damage, investigators evaluated 20 recreational distance runners aged between 18 and 60 who were scheduled to take part in the Quebec City Marathon and who had no known cardiovascular disease or drug treatment. The participants were all amateur runners. Those who had run another marathon less than two months before recruitment or during the study period were excluded.

The runners were extensively observed and tested six to eight weeks before the marathon and on the day itself. They were tested again within 48 hours after completing the marathon, including a second MRI study and final blood sampling. This timeframe guaranteed adequate rehydration (assessed according to hemoglobin level) and a return to baseline hemodynamic state (assessed according to heart rate and blood pressure) after the race, but was short enough to observe any significant myocardial changes before recovery. All runners with decreased left ventricular ejection fraction (LVEF), a measure of cardiac pumping efficiency, after the race compared with baseline underwent a third MRI study after three months of rest to check whether it had reversed.

Investigators noted that the race induced a decrease in left and right ventricular function in half of the amateur distance runners. When a lot of the heart was affected, the heart also showed swelling and reduced blood flow. “We first established that marathon related segmental function decrease – observed in more than half of all segments – is associated with a decrease in resting perfusion and increase in myocardial edema,” observes senior author Eric Larose, DVM, MD, FRCPC, FAHA, of the Institut universitaire de cardiologie et de pneumologie de Québec (IUCPQ), Canada. “We also found that heart muscle changes were more common and widespread in runners with lower fitness and less training. Finally, we observed that these changes were transient,” he continues.

The investigators do not believe these temporary changes are a cause for concern. “Segmental function decrease is associated with poor prognosis in the presence of CAD or cardiomyopathy. Segmental dysfunction also indicates a poor prognosis in adults without cardiovascular disease. Although we don’t know whether such changes mean that recreational runners are at risk, the attendant edema, and reduced perfusion suggest transient injury,” says Larose.

“The changes are more widespread among those with lower fitness levels and less training,” observes Larose, who is professor of medicine at Université Laval and a cardiologist and clinical researcher at IUCPQ. “Although no permanent injury was observed in this group of runners, the findings suggest that there may be a minimum fitness level needed beyond which the heart can bounce back from the strain of training and running a long race. Furthermore, these results emphasize the need for proper preparation before recreational distance runners engage in a marathon race,” he concludes.

This study was supported in part by grants from the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada (Quebec) and the Quebec Heart Institute Foundation.


Full bibliographic information
“Transient Myocardial Tissue and Function Changes During a Marathon in Less Fit Marathon Runners,” by Valerie Gaudreault, MD, MSc, FRCPC, Helena Tizon-Marcos, MD, Paul Poirier, MD, PhD, FRCPC, FAHA, FACC, Philippe Pibarot, DVM, PhD, FACC, FAHA, Philippe Gilbert, MD, FRCPC, Marc Amyot, MSc, Josep Rodés-Cabau, MD, FESC, Jean-Pierre Després, PhD, FACC, FAHA, Olivier Bertrand, MD, PhD, and Eric Larose, DVM, MD, FRCPC, FAHA, Canadian Journal of Cardiology, Volume 29/Issue 10 (October 2013), Transient Myocardial Tissue and Function Changes During a Marathon in Less Fit Marathon Runners (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cjca.2013.04.022), published by Elsevier.