AndroHard versus EPI ANDRO RX @ GYMnTONIC.com

[GYMnTONIC.com]

Hey guys, in case anyone missed it here...

With all the talk about PP's AndroHard a few of the members are going to give the new product by Iron Mag Labs a run and compare it to the AndroHard Version 1.



What is most significant is the fact that they both contain the identical ingredient.
(5a-androstan-3b-ol-17-one) EPI ANDRO RX IS NOT "EPISTANE" aka Tbol's sister compound, ie havoc, epi..it was simply a name given to it.

From looking online, it would appear that AndroHard Version1 is simply a liquid version of Epiandrosterone, whereas the Epi Andro RX is an oral version with a strategic delivery system built in to make it more effective.

Liquid would obviously absorb quicker and hit you harder and you potentially "might" get better absorption, but nonetheless an oral is going to hit you as well slower, but it is going to absorb also and if the "grapefruit extract" works as it has been shown to over the years, this may assist in increasing absorption as well and taking an oral multiple times per day, "might" actually be superior.

Now what we know is that AndroHard is 250mgs per serving x 50 servings. So on the surface, since Epi Andro is 50mgs per capsule, it would take 5 capsules per day to get the equivalent. A bottle has 60 capsules, so for a one month run, you would need exactly 2.5 bottles. AndroHard V1 in the day pricewise would blow this option out of the water, but nowadays it costs $200 a bottle.



So this is why I devised and priced this out for the Swole Source family. I even named it for you guys as the SWOLE SOURCE ANDRO HARD comparison. I priced it out at 4 bottles for $126 dollars. If you were to use the "SWOLE" discount you would then be paying $120 dollars and this INCLUDES FREE SHIPPING.

This is not a sales pitch, it's simply an opportunity for those of you who loved this product AndroHard to potentially test out a "comparable" product and see for yourself at a decent price. With 4 bottles you could effectively run 3 caps in the am and 3 caps in the PM for a total of 6 caps or 300mgs ED for 40 full days!!!! That is actually a pretty reasonable price.

Storefront Link
Epi Andro RX 4 pack- Swole Source ANDROhard Discount (http://stores.gymntonic.com/-strse-216/Epi-Andro-RX-4/Detail.bok)

I have a hard time finding the coincidence between the Swole Source Guys saying AndroHard was the best product they have used, and my actual Beta test where I said this was one of the best compounds I have ever used in my entire life, even better then AAS.

I am convinced that these are going to end up being nearly "one in the same"

Thanks to O'Ryan and Scope75 for giving this test run a go.

The offer is on the table for anyone who wants to try this Special Pricing and see if EPI ANDRO RX can compare to AndroHard V1.


What do we know about Stanolone aka DHT??

-Has been used in the medical community and shown long term to have growth effects on the penis.
-Has been used to increase Male Libido, due to the increases in Erection quality
-Potentially believed to cause hair loss and acne as main side effects
-Is not believed to be liver toxic at all
-It is believed that increases in DHT causes potential enlargement of Prostate, but contradictory it is used to treat Prostate Enlargement in the medical community
-4x stronger then Tesosterone
-Used to eliminate and reduce GYNO..ie it does not convert to estrogen
-Believed to improve overall mood, muscle density, sexual health, strength




AndroHard Facts:

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u579/StrongmanAlbum/androhardv1_zps90fae344.jpg (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/StrongmanAlbum/media/androhardv1_zps90fae344.jpg.html)http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u579/StrongmanAlbum/androhardchart_zpsea03fecc.gif (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/StrongmanAlbum/media/androhardchart_zpsea03fecc.gif.html)http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u579/StrongmanAlbum/androhardimage3_zps8b0acede.jpg (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/StrongmanAlbum/media/androhardimage3_zps8b0acede.jpg.html)

Amount Per Serving
%DV*

Androsterone
(5a-androstan-3b-ol-17-one)
250mg*


VERSUS

Epi-Andro RX by Iron Mag Labs

1st ingredient STANOLONE precursor aka DHT
DHT-
5a-androstan-3b-ol-17-one


2nd ingredient in EPI ANDRO
6,7 dihydroxybergamottin
My understanding of this is it is essentially a grapefruit extract.

In lamens terms for those of you who do not know, taking certain medications and supplements with grapefruit juice has been "proven" to increase a products biovailability. This is not open for discussion, this is a well known fact. So including this product in my opinion is IML's attempt in making a more effective product in the fact that you will get a better absorption rate of it's primary ingredient, therefore making it much more potent. It is an ANABOLIC AMPLIFIER in my opinion.

3rd ingredient
Piperine (black pepper extract)
Think OC spray, aka super strong pepper spray
This is a nutrient and supplement uptake product. It is known to help at a rate of up to 60% improvment of aborption. Piperine is involved to increase the absorption of other nutrients in the body and has other novel applications as well - such as helping to fight colon cancer and having an anti-depressant effect while enhancing the cognitive functions of the brain. No known toxicity.


So basically, this is a DHT product with a strategic DELIVERY system built in.


http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u579/StrongmanAlbum/IronMagepiandro1_zps951fa361.jpg (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/StrongmanAlbum/media/IronMagepiandro1_zps951fa361.jpg.html)
http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u579/StrongmanAlbum/epiandrolabel_zps0a8982d1.png (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/StrongmanAlbum/media/epiandrolabel_zps0a8982d1.png.html)

[Scope75]

Nice little comparison write up...

I will say that when I ran AHv1 I was taking 750-1000mg a day spread out between 2-4 doses so I was running threw bottles pretty fast at 3-4 servings a day. Now if Epi Andro RX can match that with 4-6 pills a day I'd say its a way better deal than AHv1.

I'm really looking forward to running Epi Andro RX out and I bought 8 bottles to give it the best run I can.
My plan is to run it 4 weeks solo then stack it with PPs Tbol for another 8 weeks, so I'll run it for a total of 12 weeks at 4-6 caps a day.

Can't thank Wesley/gymntonic.com enough of the killer deal and the awesome support.

[burlyman30]

Just to add to this... AH v.3 had a grapefruit extract as part of its delivery system. AH 1 had the "liquivade" delivery system, which included 5 grams of fat, among other things, to increase bioavailability.

[Scope75]

Just to add to this... AH v.3 had a grapefruit extract as part of its delivery system. AH 1 had the "liquivade" delivery system, which included 5 grams of fat, among other things, to increase bioavailability.

What was the fat source??
I down 50-100g fat in the am so my am dose will be with fats.

[WesleyInman]

This is what I am counting on seeing in the comparison, because then we will also know, did AndroHard truly use 250mgs per serving, or were they just saying that??

Pricewise, I don't understand how anyone could afford to use that much product and then sell it for a respectable price, but I am not questioning anyone here, I believe 100% what everyone is saying..and this is why I devised this idea because I have never run AndroHard. If the EPI ANDRO works just as well I can live with that. I'm gonna do one or the other either way in a few months. I'm really going to wait until Scope and ORyan finish and give their honest feedback.

I also have a customer who bought 8 bottles. He is running 6, 5, and 5 all in one day, so 3 dosages. It is going to be insane to hear feedback. Especially since I ran it 2/2 and loved the stuff. I personally would wonder if that much "piperine" would not give you nasty heartburn, or make your body temp super hot at all times. I guess we will see.

Also I should note, It is well worth it to me, to not make a dime but to have a legit comparison to a product you guys rave so highly about...It's an experiment. And one that money for me cannot buy. I have always supported the BBing community and product comparisons, etc, etc..and all i did was give the option for you guys to get it cheaper to try it.

This actually makes me happy. I cannot thank Scope enough for giving this a go. I did not make a dime, but I also did not lose a dime and I get to have a real life comparison from someone who has used AndroHard...So please do realize what Scope and O'Ryan and anyone else here is doing is truly a gift to us all. Thank you for running this experiment on your own dime and with the experience to back it up. I am very appreciate of this gesture.

I simply cannot wait to see what happens. This is all your fault Swole Source..you guys have me obsessed with AndroHard and I have never even owned a bottle!!:p

[burlyman30]

What was the fat source??
I down 50-100g fat in the am so my am dose will be with fats.

Here's the label:

http://www.imgur.com/8tlWsNm.jpeg

[Scope75]

Here's the label:

http://www.imgur.com/8tlWsNm.jpeg

Looks like I have to get tapatalk because I can't see any of your pics.

[ExtraZeus]

Alright, all this talk about Androhard is making me drool! I took advantage of the sale and picked up a few other items. Going to run the epiandro with halo and see how I get on. The last thing I used was Androhard v3 for 16 weeks and it was epic! That was almost 2 years ago though. Pretty excited to see how it compares for myself. On Androhard, I felt like I was walking granite all day long. Thanks for the awesome sale Wes!

[Scope75]

Alright, all this talk about Androhard is making me drool! I took advantage of the sale and picked up a few other items. Going to run the epiandro with halo and see how I get on. The last thing I used was Androhard v3 for 16 weeks and it was epic! That was almost 2 years ago though. Pretty excited to see how it compares for myself. On Androhard, I felt like I was walking granite all day long. Thanks for the awesome sale Wes!

When will you be starting your cycle??
I'll be running the same stack in several weeks.

[Sperwer]

I'll be following this with great interest. The result may influence how we formulate the new AH, whether modeled on V1, V2, V3 or some combination thereof (plus a couple of other things we have up our sleeve).


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[WesleyInman]

Alright, all this talk about Androhard is making me drool! I took advantage of the sale and picked up a few other items. Going to run the epiandro with halo and see how I get on. The last thing I used was Androhard v3 for 16 weeks and it was epic! That was almost 2 years ago though. Pretty excited to see how it compares for myself. On Androhard, I felt like I was walking granite all day long. Thanks for the awesome sale Wes!

Awesome!!! Would you be willing to log your results?? This is an awesome stack, your muscles are going to be rock hard, and you are gonna get strong. That halo acts alot like Anavar..the combo of Var and Epi Andro would be sickening...This makes me happy we have 3 people giving feedback!! THANK YOU!!!!

When will you be starting your cycle??
I'll be running the same stack in several weeks.

Are you doing Halo also?? can't wait for you guys to start this and be a week or two in.


I'll be following this with great interest. The result may influence how we formulate the new AH, whether modeled on V1, V2, V3 or some combination thereof (plus a couple of other things we have up our sleeve).


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Awesome, Sperwer!! This is great news..very cool. I would be interested in your version as well :) will yours be liquid, transdermal,etc??

[O_RYAN_007]

This is what I am counting on seeing in the comparison, because then we will also know, did AndroHard truly use 250mgs per serving, or were they just saying that??

Pricewise, I don't understand how anyone could afford to use that much product and then sell it for a respectable price, but I am not questioning anyone here, I believe 100% what everyone is saying..and this is why I devised this idea because I have never run AndroHard. If the EPI ANDRO works just as well I can live with that. I'm gonna do one or the other either way in a few months. I'm really going to wait until Scope and ORyan finish and give their honest feedback.

I also have a customer who bought 8 bottles. He is running 6, 5, and 5 all in one day, so 3 dosages. It is going to be insane to hear feedback. Especially since I ran it 2/2 and loved the stuff. I personally would wonder if that much "piperine" would not give you nasty heartburn, or make your body temp super hot at all times. I guess we will see.

Also I should note, It is well worth it to me, to not make a dime but to have a legit comparison to a product you guys rave so highly about...It's an experiment. And one that money for me cannot buy. I have always supported the BBing community and product comparisons, etc, etc..and all i did was give the option for you guys to get it cheaper to try it.

This actually makes me happy. I cannot thank Scope enough for giving this a go. I did not make a dime, but I also did not lose a dime and I get to have a real life comparison from someone who has used AndroHard...So please do realize what Scope and O'Ryan and anyone else here is doing is truly a gift to us all. Thank you for running this experiment on your own dime and with the experience to back it up. I am very appreciate of this gesture.

I simply cannot wait to see what happens. This is all your fault Swole Source..you guys have me obsessed with AndroHard and I have never even owned a bottle!!:p

Just as Dave Tate says, "live, learn, pass on."

I will also be grabbing that deal scope did... Soon, very soon!!!

[Scope75]

Yeah after 4 weeks Epi Andro solo I'll be adding in PPs Tbol into the mix for 8 more weeks.

I have Var also but I'll be saving that to end a test cycle.

[GYMnTONIC.com]

I'll be following this with great interest. The result may influence how we formulate the new AH, whether modeled on V1, V2, V3 or some combination thereof (plus a couple of other things we have up our sleeve).


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When are your plans to release this?? Is it for certain??

If you are unable to, I may actually come up with a version of this. I think if I make a bulk purchase I can get the cost down on this. Keep it low and at cost for SS members only and jack it up and make a profit for other customers. I can talk with the guys over at Blackstone Labs and Iron Mag Labs..they have some of the best ideas in the market IMO. Then I will discuss this with a few other PH makers I know and see what they think of the delivery systems and what is best.

If you are unable to come out with a product, I think this is certainly something we can make happen in the next few months. I like the liquid and transdermal idea. I also am thinking of what would be ideal to blend with this. Var would be ideal,bit since that is not legal Halo might be a very very good mix as well. Like a "blend" You SS guys are brilliant.

I still don't understand what happened to PP. What was the reason again this all went bad??

[burlyman30]

When are your plans to release this?? Is it for certain??

If you are unable to, I may actually come up with a version of this. I think if I make a bulk purchase I can get the cost down on this. Keep it low and at cost for SS members only and jack it up and make a profit for other customers. I can talk with the guys over at Blackstone Labs and Iron Mag Labs..they have some of the best ideas in the market IMO. Then I will discuss this with a few other PH makers I know and see what they think of the delivery systems and what is best.

If you are unable to come out with a product, I think this is certainly something we can make happen in the next few months. I like the liquid and transdermal idea. I also am thinking of what would be ideal to blend with this. Var would be ideal,bit since that is not legal Halo might be a very very good mix as well. Like a "blend" You SS guys are brilliant.

I still don't understand what happened to PP. What was the reason again this all went bad??

FDA confiscated all PP's hormonal products.

[GYMnTONIC.com]

FDA confiscated all PP's hormonal products.

Burly on what basis?? Was he carrying illegal products?? Was he charged or convicted of a crime??

[Scope75]

Only thing with blends is you can't just up the dose of just one thing so I'd rather just have it be solo.
Stacking 2 products separately just gives the user full control and endless combos.

[burlyman30]

Burly on what basis?? Was he carrying illegal products?? Was he charged or convicted of a crime??

You can read the details at Primordial Performance (http://WWW.primordialperformance.com) . The investigation is still "open" and no convictions have been made at this time.

[Scope75]

Burly on what basis?? Was he carrying illegal products?? Was he charged or convicted of a crime??

Link to all the details...
Primordial Performance (http://www.primordialperformance.com/)

[Sperwer]

Awesome!!! Would you be willing to log your results?? This is an awesome stack, your muscles are going to be rock hard, and you are gonna get strong. That halo acts alot like Anavar..the combo of Var and Epi Andro would be sickening...This makes me happy we have 3 people giving feedback!! THANK YOU!!!!


Are you doing Halo also?? can't wait for you guys to start this and be a week or two in.



Awesome, Sperwer!! This is great news..very cool. I would be interested in your version as well :) will yours be liquid, transdermal,etc??

Currently assessing the relative efficacy, cost effectiveness and user convenience preferences for oral and transdermal versions.

And to address your later questions, i very much doubt anyone stateside will be able to come close even to matching our supply and production costs; and we have a shipping solution that will make our delivery costs competitive with US domestic rates.

As for certainty, this is as about as sure a thing as it can be, bearing in mind that it ain't over til the fat lady sings.


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[Scope75]

Damn this thread is moving fast.
I'm getting hard just thinking about AH.

[GYMnTONIC.com]

Only thing with blends is you can't just up the dose of just one thing so I'd rather just have it be solo.
Stacking 2 products separately just gives the user full control and endless combos.

Fair enough. Lets see what Sperwer has to say. If this is for certain, it would be easier and preferable that he can do it..however,if he cannot, I certainly would put in an effort and I am positive I could make it happen as I am fortunate enough to have a few friends in the PH industry. I have considered making a GYM N TONIC line of liquid PH's..but to be honest, there are so many good products out there right now and to make any kind of money you have to buy in a huge bulk..and when I say huge bulk I mean 100grams or more which we are talking thousands of dollars. I am not a wealthy man by any means. But if I had to invest into "one" product..the Stanolone precursor would certainly fit the mold.

The best AAS that is on the market IMO is Parabolan..aka Tren Depot..most of it is counterfeited but anyone who has ever experienced the real deal knows how amazing this compound. I would actually suffice to say that the IML Epi Andro reminded me very much of legit parabolan. It was that good. AndroHard sounds like it was just as good if not better as well.

- - - Updated - - -


Currently assessing the relative efficacy, cost effectiveness and user convenience preferences for oral and transdermal versions.

And to address your later questions, i very much doubt anyone stateside will be able to come close even to matching our supply and production costs; and we have a shipping solution that will make our delivery costs competitive with US domestic rates.

As for certainty, this is as about as sure a thing as it can be, bearing in mind that it ain't over til the fat lady sings.


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Awesome.

Well when it comes out. I will be happy to advertise your product on our store and carry it. We will talk. I look forward to hearing more.

[Scope75]

Fair enough. Lets see what Sperwer has to say. If this is for certain, it would be easier and preferable that he can do it..however,if he cannot, I certainly would put in an effort and I am positive I could make it happen as I am fortunate enough to have a few friends in the PH industry. I have considered making a GYM N TONIC line of liquid PH's..but to be honest, there are so many good products out there right now and to make any kind of money you have to buy in a huge bulk..and when I say huge bulk I mean 100grams or more which we are talking thousands of dollars. I am not a wealthy man by any means. But if I had to invest into "one" product..the Stanolone precursor would certainly fit the mold.

The best AAS that is on the market IMO is Parabolan..aka Tren Depot..most of it is counterfeited but anyone who has ever experienced the real deal knows how amazing this compound. I would actually suffice to say that the IML Epi Andro reminded me very much of legit parabolan. It was that good. AndroHard sounds like it was just as good if not better as well.

- - - Updated - - -



Awesome.

Well when it comes out. I will be happy to advertise your product on our store and carry it. We will talk. I look forward to hearing more.
Maybe a little teamwork could make it happen....
And happen soon.

[GYMnTONIC.com]

Link to all the details...
Primordial Performance (http://www.primordialperformance.com/)

I just read this whole thing. It's complete bullshit. Personally it makes me beyond angry. I can't stand what the FDA and gov't involves itself in. While millions are unemployed, starving,all the other issues in the Nation and they send 30 armed agents in to raid a supplement company. Why first of all was a subpoena served by an armed intrusion, in a peaceful business. Let me guess, "homeland security". It's a "para-military" Nation we live in these days. Very scary. No longer are Police, "police". They have free will and it would appear the rights of the normal citizen are "at will".

If I were PP I would hire a great Attorney and go after them and ask for reparations. If they could line up with someone to help them "pro bono" like Rick Collins who supports this industry and operates Federally they might have a shot. This guy operated within the scope of the law. As much as it may be "grey" area, that is what the legal system thrives on. If you are going to have laws and loopholes then you have to accept when all angles are played.

It would appear that when the US govt' is losing its own game of kickball..it takes it's ball and goes home. Simply disgusting.

[ExtraZeus]

When will you be starting your cycle??
I'll be running the same stack in several weeks.

It probably wont be for a few weeks. I wana make sure my PCT arrives. I did notice that you were running the same stack, it actually put the idea back in my head to pull the trigger. I was thinking of running stano and halo this summer but I switched jobs and wasn't hitting the gym as much as I would have liked, diet was turning to crap, it wouldn't have been good. I have everything back in check now though so it's game on!


Awesome!!! Would you be willing to log your results?? This is an awesome stack, your muscles are going to be rock hard, and you are gonna get strong. That halo acts alot like Anavar..the combo of Var and Epi Andro would be sickening...This makes me happy we have 3 people giving feedback!! THANK YOU!!!!

Yeah for sure! Once I get started I'll get something going in the training logs.

[O_RYAN_007]

I'm really excited to give EpiAndro a go and give my comparisons to AHV1,V2, &V3. I'll def be running it at 3am/3pm. I think I will be starting in a week.

[Scope75]

It probably wont be for a few weeks. I wana make sure my PCT arrives. I did notice that you were running the same stack, it actually put the idea back in my head to pull the trigger. I was thinking of running stano and halo this summer but I switched jobs and wasn't hitting the gym as much as I would have liked, diet was turning to crap, it wouldn't have been good. I have everything back in check now though so it's game on!
Smart move on have your PCT all lined up and in hand before starting your run.


Yeah for sure! Once I get started I'll get something going in the training logs.

Smart move on have your PCT all lined up and in hand before starting your run. Grab some Endoamp if you already haven't because that product WORKS.

Also it sound like we'll be running out cycles at the same time because I'm 5-6 weeks away from my first Tbol dose. What's your dosing plans on both Epi Ando RX and hdrol?
Glad I was able to get you to pull the trigger on this cycle because O_RYAN is the one that got me to pull the trigger on mine. Hell I'm going to be running a partial bottle of tbol that I got from O_RYAN too.

[O_RYAN_007]

Smart move on have your PCT all lined up and in hand before starting your run. Grab some Endoamp if you already haven't because that product WORKS.

Also it sound like we'll be running out cycles at the same time because I'm 5-6 weeks away from my first Tbol dose. What's your dosing plans on both Epi Ando RX and hdrol?
Glad I was able to get you to pull the trigger on this cycle because O_RYAN is the one that got me to pull the trigger on mine. Hell I'm going to be running a partial bottle of tbol that I got from O_RYAN too.

Yeah buddy!!!!

[Scope75]

Yeah buddy!!!!

Even thou its been a year or so thanks again man.

[O_RYAN_007]

Even thou its been a year or so thanks again man.

Anytime!!

[BoneDaddy]

I'm grabbing this too and put it in a monster cut. Let's see what happens....

[Scope75]

I'm grabbing this too and put it in a monster cut. Let's see what happens....

Now get your ass in some SS COMPS!!!!

[Scope75]

I just checked on my Epi Andro order and it's alresdy here....
I sent money 2 days ago so Wesley/gymntonic.com don't mess around once you place and order.

[ExtraZeus]

What's your dosing plans on both Epi Ando RX and hdrol?

Well, the math works out for what I have to run 3 am/3 pm on the Epi Andro and 75mg a day on the halo for just about 6 weeks. Nice score on the PP t-bol!

[Scope75]

Well, the math works out for what I have to run 3 am/3 pm on the Epi Andro and 75mg a day on the halo for just about 6 weeks. Nice score on the PP t-bol!

You might want to think about a weeks on hdrol since it takes 2-3wks to fully kick in.

[hardestgainer]

Think Im gonna go ahead and take advantage of this even though I dont have plans of running anything for atleast 6 months. Andohard was one of the fw PP products I never tried. Also might grab a couple tubs of angel dust from you guys while im at it

[GYMnTONIC.com]

Please be sure to see the other thread going around on here called StanoElite versus Epi Andro as well. There may be other potential options for you to consider to the EPI ANDRO RX that would cost less. We cannot personally vouch for the LGI version or Stanozane, etc, etc..However there are some members here saying they are legit. They would be a bit cheaper potentially to get more MG per capsule, but this would be your decision to make :)

Also we have 2 Angel Dust for $79,with discount code "SWOLE" that puts you at $75. 4 Angel Dust for $149. With your 5% off using "SWOLE" that would put you at about $142 for 4.

[O_RYAN_007]

Took my first Epiandro dose a couple mins ago, I'll start updating everyone within the next couple days.

[Scope75]

Took my first Epiandro dose a couple mins ago, I'll start updating everyone within the next couple days.
Nice looking forward to your review.

I thought I was going to start mine on 10/28 or 11/4 but now its looking like 11/11 will be when I start mine up.

[WesleyInman]

Hey everyone. This kid is doing an 8 cap per day run of EPI ANDRO RX..I hope it is ok to post this link to the IML forum where he is running it!! Anyways, this is one more review for us to watch!!!

I think I might have a customer who is going to run the STAN by LGI, which is 200mg caps. If he does he will do 800mgs per day and I will let you guys know what he says about the product!


TONY"s EPI ANDRO Beta Test
Tony Fortress IML Epi-Andro log (http://www.ironmaglabs.com/forums/showthread.php/5617-Tony-Fortress-IML-Epi-Andro-log)

[O_RYAN_007]

Just picked up 4 bottles from you guys! Awesome deal for sure! I think I may up the dose to 8/day rather than 6/day. At 6/day things are working, but not like when I was on 500mg of AHV1. Let's see what 4/day does, I'll start that tomorrow.

[Bucks]

Gotta love AH!!




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[GYMnTONIC.com]

Awesome, thanks so much to all the swole source guys for doing this!! I can't wait to hear after 60 more days if Epi Andro can hold a flame to the AHv1,2,3.

[WesleyInman]

Any of the guys here running this have an update??? I'm dying to hear feedback!

I have one..I actually just got an LGI STANO..to put to the test to compare to EPI ANDRO RX. Though I cannot compare it to AH, if it is as effective or better, we can all dose it higher for less money.

Waiting for my bottle to arrive and I am starting ASAP. EITHER 600-800mgs ED, not sure yet. But I can at least validate one more variable for us all.

[O_RYAN_007]

I'm experiencing good results at 3am/3pm, I would compare it to 350mg of AHv1, but I will bump it up to 4am/4pm next week to see if I can get a comparable effect to 500mg of AH. Muscles are super hard and well defines. Strength is not major from this compound, but its great so far.

[O_RYAN_007]

So I started 4 am/4pm on Monday, and I will say that this is the closest results I've seen to 500mg of AHV1. My main measurement is libido and hardness. I felt the muscles a little more hard today in the gym, and the libido has been very high, comparable to the 500mg of AHV1. AHV2 was amazing in the libido depot, so this also compares to the 6 caps I was taking of AHV2 as well. V3 didn't do very much for me in that depot, but it may have been that my estro was so low at that point.

[burlyman30]

So I started 4 am/4pm on Monday, and I will say that this is the closest results I've seen to 500mg of AHV1. My main measurement is libido and hardness. I felt the muscles a little more hard today in the gym, and the libido has been very high, comparable to the 500mg of AHV1. AHV2 was amazing in the libido depot, so this also compares to the 6 caps I was taking of AHV2 as well. V3 didn't do very much for me in that depot, but it may have been that my estro was so low at that point.

Good feedback. One question: do you feel you can differentiate between the effects of the EpiAndro and the test and tren you are currently using? I ask because tren creates hardness, and both test and tren can affect libido as well. Thanks for your input.

[nate3993]

Dam. 8 pills a day seems hefty. I mean, it's cool u don't have to pin like with mast, but dam. 8 pills is an awful lot.

[ExtraZeus]

Good feedback. One question: do you feel you can differentiate between the effects of the EpiAndro and the test and tren you are currently using?

I had the similar thoughts about when I run this with halo. I've never used halo so I don't know if I could tell whats what. I decided to order another 4 bottles, take another page from the book of Scope, and run Epiandro solo for atleast 3 weeks before I add Halo. I should be able to give decent feedback in regards to how it stacks up to V3.

Starting this ASAP...

[weekend]

wes, i would go with 800 mg. 1000 would be solid as well.

[Scope75]

Well I won't be able to start mine until 2014 because I just have to much going on that will have me away from the gym and food.

I'll be using the rest if this year to prime myself for big gains in 2014.

[O_RYAN_007]

Good feedback. One question: do you feel you can differentiate between the effects of the EpiAndro and the test and tren you are currently using? I ask because tren creates hardness, and both test and tren can affect libido as well. Thanks for your input.

I know the tren is making my muscles hard and full, but I can def feel a difference from 6 pills ED to 8 pills ED. When I ran out of AHV1 early in the tren run, i noticed a difference when I started epiandro at 6 caps. So at this point at 8 ed, I can def say that the effects of the AHV1 at 500mg caps is comparable to the 8 caps of epiandro.

[burlyman30]

I know the tren is making my muscles hard and full, but I can def feel a difference from 6 pills ED to 8 pills ED. When I ran out of AHV1 early in the tren run, i noticed a difference when I started epiandro at 6 caps. So at this point at 8 ed, I can def say that the effects of the AHV1 at 500mg caps is comparable to the 8 caps of epiandro.

Thanks for the clarification.

[O_RYAN_007]

Thanks for the clarification.

Anytime, and I want everyone to know that this isn't the only compound I'm running now.

[WesleyInman]

So I started 4 am/4pm on Monday, and I will say that this is the closest results I've seen to 500mg of AHV1. My main measurement is libido and hardness. I felt the muscles a little more hard today in the gym, and the libido has been very high, comparable to the 500mg of AHV1. AHV2 was amazing in the libido depot, so this also compares to the 6 caps I was taking of AHV2 as well. V3 didn't do very much for me in that depot, but it may have been that my estro was so low at that point.

THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This actually made my day!! This is a good start it would seem :) Now to just find the most inexpensive but legit Stano left on the market to compare this to :)


Dam. 8 pills a day seems hefty. I mean, it's cool u don't have to pin like with mast, but dam. 8 pills is an awful lot.

8 pills might seem like alot, but its really only 400mgs of EPI ANDRO, or active product, so the delivery system must be working if it is close in nature to 500mgs of AVH.

I am testing LGI's version right now..they are dosed at 200mgs each. I am doing to do 800mgs ED. If it turns out better then EPI ANDRO, then I will look into a bulk purchase from LGI to cut price down so I can sell 2-3 bottles in a package deal and everyone here can experience AndroHard like results again!!!


I had the similar thoughts about when I run this with halo. I've never used halo so I don't know if I could tell whats what. I decided to order another 4 bottles, take another page from the book of Scope, and run Epiandro solo for atleast 3 weeks before I add Halo. I should be able to give decent feedback in regards to how it stacks up to V3.

Starting this ASAP...

ZEUS!!! Super excited to hear this..Please post your results I cannot wait to hear bout this :)


wes, i would go with 800 mg. 1000 would be solid as well.

Weekend, I took your advice..Im doing 800mgs ED... I'm gonna buy another bottle and stay on for at least 30 days. I will give feedback in this thread. So far, not to be graphic..Day 2 and I feel like an 18 year old kid again. Woke up with libido raging. Already getting "beer goggles" that I get on products like HCG. Can find SOMETHING attractive in ANY women..it's not a good thing. You have a nice..."neck". LOL


Well I won't be able to start mine until 2014 because I just have to much going on that will have me away from the gym and food.

I'll be using the rest if this year to prime myself for big gains in 2014.

Scope, can't wait man..itching for you to compare and leave feedback!!


Thanx again Swole Source, please keep the feedback coming in!!!

[O_RYAN_007]

Dam. 8 pills a day seems hefty. I mean, it's cool u don't have to pin like with mast, but dam. 8 pills is an awful lot.

4 at 6:30am and 4 at 3pm, so it's not bad AT ALL. I was taking 8-9 pills of AHV3 or AMV3 all in the mornings when I ran those compounds.

[WesleyInman]

I'm at Day 7 or 8 of Stano 200. It certainly has an active ingredient. My muscles are harder and my sex drive is through the roof. It is too early to compare to EPI ANDRO RX..but the one thing I did notice on EPI ANDRO RX is at the beginning I was much more aggressive and I was warm feeling all the time. I do not feel like this yet on Stano200.

I'm still running 800mgs ED and will do this for 40 days. So it's too soon to judge the product as of yet. If i had to say week 1 comparatively, I would honestly say I noticed the EPI ANDRO RX hitting me harder from the start.

But lets see what happens.

[WesleyInman]

I actually took my shirt off in the locker room today in good light and I can see my striations for a fact compared to when I started. I truly hope this is stronger then EPI ANDRO so it is that much more affordable. Figure EPI ANDRO is 120 for a month at 4/4. You can run LGIStan 800mgs for 44 days for around 80-90.

Also noteworthy. Months ago when I started my beta test of Epi Andro and alot of guys asked me "medically speaking" if they should run liver support, etc...I chose the product Liv-52 for a reason. They wanted Prostate support, since in theory, it is believed DHT can enlarge the Prostate.

But this was my theory, from my med. background. In a 30-60 day period, you are not going to enlarge the prostate to the point of danger or the point where it is irreversible, if it increases at all. Sure if you stayed on DHT for a year, or AAS, or other products, for super long term, of course it "might" enlarge it. Likewise, Stanolone and DHT are used to treat prostate enlargement. The science is still wishy washy in regards to whether it works better to treat Prostate issues, or if it indeed does cause Prostate issues. It might just be individual since it would appear it can go both ways.

Anyways, guys wanted to run Advanced Cycle Support or other liver and organ support products that contained saw palmetto Or Finasteride. I advised these guys to not use such a product. My theory was that saw palmetto has been shown medically to lower DHT almost completely. So has Finasteride. So AndroHard, EPi Andro, LGIstan, etc..they all run off a product Stanolone, which seeks to "convert" to DHT, or is "DHT". Truthfully we don't know. One company might use pure DHT, one company might use a product that converts such as the epi andro PH..(stanolone,stanolone precursor, etc)

But the point is, that if you are running AndroHard, Epi Andro, LGI Stan, you do NOT want to use a prostate support supplement like Finasteride or Saw Palmetto. You would reduce the effectiveness of the product to an unknown extent. This is what I have been saying all along.

I spoke to several doctors and reviewed medical journals all this month, and all the information supported this theory, so my assumption would be correct...For some reason this has alot of people doubting that saw palmetto or Finasteride would interfere with the results of a stanolone cycle.

Bottom line, run Liv-52 only (as a precaution) and steer clear of DHT blockers while running short cycles of Stanolone 30-60 days and optimize your results.

[Sperwer]

I just started a run of Ironflex Stano today at 200 x 5 ED. I had had a good experience with the LGI product when I tried it several months ago, and that's what I thought I ordered again this time, but when i opened the stash cupboard ... early dementia I guess; gotta start taking that B12 again to get the homocysteine back down. LOL. Anyway, I'll tag along and post my experience from time to time for comparative purposes.

[erolivas]

I still have a tube of PP's 1T Tren. How would Epi Andro Rx stack with this?

[BoneDaddy]

I still have a tube of PP's 1T Tren. How would Epi Andro Rx stack with this?

VERY well. Just do it. Throw in some Epistane or Havoc for the trifecta and you will have 1 bad ass cycle going.

[erolivas]

VERY well. Just do it. Throw in some Epistane or Havoc for the trifecta and you will have 1 bad ass cycle going.


Thanks man! Will do I'll make an order of Epi Andro and start the stack. I'll make sure to log and update.

[Sperwer]

I can vouch for the efficacy of the Ironflex version after just a day. At 1k mg @ 235 lbs, i didn't feel much the first day, but overnight it produced remarkable vascularity and astonishing hardness. Major morning wood too. Day 2 at the same dose gave me a little moment of the shakes and then big aggression in the gym, which the Tren God was able to put to good use.


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[O_RYAN_007]

I can vouch for the efficacy of the Ironflex version after just a day. At 1k mg @ 235 lbs, i didn't feel much the first day, but overnight it produced remarkable vascularity and astonishing hardness. Major morning wood too. Day 2 at the same dose gave me a little moment of the shakes and then big aggression in the gym, which the Tren God was able to put to good use.


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Sounds like i need to look into Ironflex's version.

[WesleyInman]

I can vouch for the efficacy of the Ironflex version after just a day. At 1k mg @ 235 lbs, i didn't feel much the first day, but overnight it produced remarkable vascularity and astonishing hardness. Major morning wood too. Day 2 at the same dose gave me a little moment of the shakes and then big aggression in the gym, which the Tren God was able to put to good use.


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Same thing happened with me the first few days of Epi Andro and LGI Stano.. Especially day one, same thing woke up in the am like a 16 year old boy LOL.

I'm on week 2 now of LGI stano..no doubt it is working..im having a very hard time gauging if it is the same as EPI ANDRO, better or weaker..still too soon to know.

[O_RYAN_007]

So we have people taking LGIs Stano, IML Epiandro RX, and IronFlex's version of Stano. This is very interesting, I want to know which one is the best so far. I still have 2 more bottles of Epiandro RX so I guess I have a little time to figure which way I will go next.

[WesleyInman]

Yes it's a joint effort. Theres at least 6-7 of us on the forum with these items now. Those of you who have used AndroHard who are now using Epi Andro can give a solid comparison.

Then I am going to say whether or not LGI is better then Epi Andro..and if Sperwer can compare AndroHard to the IronFlex..we should be able to have a ranking system, or close to if we simply combine our experiences :)

Definitely very cool that everyone is working on this together.

Can't someone just contact the owner of PP and re-make the same product, or get his source? That seems it might be easier LOL

[burlyman30]

Yes it's a joint effort. Theres at least 6-7 of us on the forum with these items now. Those of you who have used AndroHard who are now using Epi Andro can give a solid comparison.

Then I am going to say whether or not LGI is better then Epi Andro..and if Sperwer can compare AndroHard to the IronFlex..we should be able to have a ranking system, or close to if we simply combine our experiences :)

Definitely very cool that everyone is working on this together.

Can't someone just contact the owner of PP and re-make the same product, or get his source? That seems it might be easier LOL

Sperwer has an agreement with the owner of PP and will be formulating an Androhard product pretty soon.. hold tight!

[Cdsnuts]

Sperwer has an agreement with the owner of PP and will be formulating an Androhard product pretty soon.. hold tight!

There should be a "love" button on this site. "Like" just doesn't do this statement justice......

[Sperwer]

Day three of Ironflex Stanozone. Really heavy sweats last night. This is fundamentally a function of Tren A @ 100 mg EOD. But it was MUCH more pronounced last night, which I attribute to the Stano. My prelim view is that the Ironflex Stano is somehow stronger than the Iron Mag Epi-Andro. That doesn't make sense, given that it's the same dose of the same compound, and especially considering that IM also has piperine and bergamotin to enhance absorption and bio-availability Maybe a synergistic result of the combo w/ tren ?


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[Sperwer]

Sperwer has an agreement with the owner of PP and will be formulating an Androhard product pretty soon.. hold tight!

998

[WesleyInman]

Day three of Ironflex Stanozone. Really heavy sweats last night. This is fundamentally a function of Tren A @ 100 mg EOD. But it was MUCH more pronounced last night, which I attribute to the Stano. My prelim view is that the Ironflex Stano is somehow stronger than the Iron Mag Epi-Andro. That doesn't make sense, given that it's the same dose of the same compound, and especially considering that IM also has piperine and bergamotin to enhance absorption and bio-availability Maybe a synergistic result of the combo w/ tren ?


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So wait, are you taking trenabol or Tren at the same time??

I'm hoping you are only running the Stano by itself and no other compound, because then we can't really fairly assess it for its attributes, especially with a tren compound. That in itself would show far too many results of a similar nature to determine imo :(

I got night sweats on occasion with both LGI and Epi Andro..but on tren, I had them nightly and pretty horribly. Slept with a towel. I don't like tren that much compared to most people. I LOVE what it does to my body and I despise the sleep issues. One week on and I was ready to beat the shit out of someone from lack of sleep/aggression issues from the compound.

Tren and AMBIEN stack..that I might consider!

[O_RYAN_007]

So wait, are you taking trenabol or Tren at the same time??

I'm hoping you are only running the Stano by itself and no other compound, because then we can't really fairly assess it for its attributes, especially with a tren compound. That in itself would show far too many results of a similar nature to determine imo :(

I got night sweats on occasion with both LGI and Epi Andro..but on tren, I had them nightly and pretty horribly. Slept with a towel. I don't like tren that much compared to most people. I LOVE what it does to my body and I despise the sleep issues. One week on and I was ready to beat the shit out of someone from lack of sleep/aggression issues from the compound.

Tren and AMBIEN stack..that I might consider!

tren and weed stack is amazing! :))) TNT plus epiandro is pretty freakin awesome!!!

[WesleyInman]

I was actually just telling ORyan my game plan...

Instead of buying a second bottle of LGI stano, I am going to run this one out until it's done...Buy the Iron Flex one Sperwer is taking. Then I will run that full bottle...I will be able to compare for myself the EPI ANDRO RX versus LGI Stano versus Iron Flex.....

Then whichever is the best I am going to do a 30 day mega dose of the one that works the best..So Epi Andro for example I will do 4/4 caps per day, or the LGI stano 1600mgs ED.

Then when Sperwers version comes out..Im getting that. I have a super high expectation of the AndroHard at this point, so I am hoping it is magic in a bottle.

I may just stay on Stanolone for the next few months. Hopefully I do not become immune to it's effects. I may take a brief 2-4 week blast in between the mega doses EpiAndro (lgi, IML, Iron flex) then take 4 weeks off and run Sperwers AndroHard. Either way, there is no reason for me to run any other compound as my primary.

So I have HRT and Stano. I'm quite happy.

[O_RYAN_007]

i was actually just telling oryan my game plan...

Instead of buying a second bottle of lgi stano, i am going to run this one out until it's done...buy the iron flex one sperwer is taking. Then i will run that full bottle...i will be able to compare for myself the epi andro rx versus lgi stano versus iron flex.....

Then whichever is the best i am going to do a 30 day mega dose of the one that works the best..so epi andro for example i will do 4/4 caps per day, or the lgi stano 1600mgs ed.

Then when sperwers version comes out..im getting that. I have a super high expectation of the androhard at this point, so i am hoping it is magic in a bottle.

I may just stay on stanolone for the next few months. Hopefully i do not become immune to it's effects. I may take a brief 2-4 week blast in between the mega doses epiandro (lgi, iml, iron flex) then take 4 weeks off and run sperwers androhard. Either way, there is no reason for me to run any other compound as my primary.

So i have hrt and stano. I'm quite happy.

this is awesome!!!!

[burlyman30]

Wesley, just a word to the wise.. . I did a long term run of AH and I did find that muscle stiffness and inflexibility occurred. Upon cessation of the product, that issue resolved itself in a matter of weeks.

[WesleyInman]

Wesley, just a word to the wise.. . I did a long term run of AH and I did find that muscle stiffness and inflexibility occurred. Upon cessation of the product, that issue resolved itself in a matter of weeks.

And I am inflexible and stiff as is.

You are right though I do notice it when I am on this compound. So I will end my LGI stano for Dec 1st. Take 2 weeks off. I just agreed to a Couples Strongman challenge for Dec 14th. I will be competing side by side with a female partner in the LW division. So I am going to cut out the product, compete and jump right back on the Iron Flex on Dec 15th :) then go from there.

Sounds like a plan. Thanx for the heads up :) good reminder!!

[weekend]

I have done a yoga class 2x weekly for my whole cycle. First time doing it consistently but wow it helps with the on cycle stiffness!

[ExtraZeus]

I'm a little over a week into EpiAndro at 3am/3pm and things are going pretty good. Strength is up a bit, and muscles do feel fuller. I look leaner in the mirror but the scale hasn't moved. Over all I'm happy with the results so far. However, it isn't as good as Androhard v3. I was much harder/fuller at this point and strength was a bit better as well. Feels like a low dose Androhard and givin the mgs to mgs thats pretty much what it is. Going to continue at 6 a day for a few more days and then bump it up to 8 a day.

I think this stuff is good, but it kinda makes me miss Androhard that much more, trying to find a replacement for it. Which reminds me...
Sperwer, you're the man...that is all.

[Sperwer]

So wait, are you taking trenabol or Tren at the same time??

I'm hoping you are only running the Stano by itself and no other compound, because then we can't really fairly assess it for its attributes, especially with a tren compound. That in itself would show far too many results of a similar nature to determine imo :(

I got night sweats on occasion with both LGI and Epi Andro..but on tren, I had them nightly and pretty horribly. Slept with a towel. I don't like tren that much compared to most people. I LOVE what it does to my body and I despise the sleep issues. One week on and I was ready to beat the shit out of someone from lack of sleep/aggression issues from the compound.

Tren and AMBIEN stack..that I might consider!

Yes, real Tren A, 100mg EOD.

Point taken, but AFAIC, Tren's effects are drive, strength, endurance, growth and recovery. The Stano tops up the aggression and adds the vascularity and hardness, as evidenced by the increase in all the latter after I started the Stano three weeks after starting the Tren. So I think I can discriminate among the various effects of the different compounds. Same goes for the Epi-Andro, which I also piggy-backed on Parabolan/Tren Hex. I guess I also should note that I've also got a base of TRT-dosed Test going on - but, as I've remarked to Burly before, its principal effect is simply to allow me to feel human again (and cushion the Tren sides) rather than to contribute to anabolism. Anyway, feel free to discount my reports for comparative purposes if you like; no worries. I'll keep providing updates, though, for general interest.

[Sperwer]

tren and weed stack is amazing! :))) TNT plus epiandro is pretty freakin awesome!!!

Don't know about the weed, but word on the TNT plus stano. I'm on trt, so both my Parabolan/EpiAndron and currentTrenA/Stano runs have had a modest (physiologic) test foundation. Just scored 40ml each of Test E and Tren E, though, so will be planning a more ambitious version of the same in the future,

[WesleyInman]

Yes, real Tren A, 100mg EOD.

Point taken, but AFAIC, Tren's effects are drive, strength, endurance, growth and recovery. The Stano tops up the aggression and adds the vascularity and hardness, as evidenced by the increase in all the latter after I started the Stano three weeks after starting the Tren. So I think I can discriminate among the various effects of the different compounds. Same goes for the Epi-Andro, which I also piggy-backed on Parabolan/Tren Hex. I guess I also should note that I've also got a base of TRT-dosed Test going on - but, as I've remarked to Burly before, its principal effect is simply to allow me to feel human again (and cushion the Tren sides) rather than to contribute to anabolism. Anyway, feel free to discount my reports for comparative purposes if you like; no worries. I'll keep providing updates, though, for general interest.

Never would I discount your reports.

I just think in all fairness everyone would agree, that the most optimal way to gauge this would be a SOLO compound determination.

I have abused AAS excessively in the past and I can make very clear determinations as to one compound from another when running combos..but what must not be discounted is "Synergy" of multiple compounds at once, and the potential overlap of gains, etc.

I still think your research is valuable. I think it would be more ideal if you were only on Stano, or only on Stano with a regulated HRT/TRT dosage is all. Please do continue to comment. We should have 6-10 people here on SS able to comment on different Stano versions, so the combined evaluations of all of us would probably be best I would imagine?

[Sperwer]

Never would I discount your reports.

I just think in all fairness everyone would agree, that the most optimal way to gauge this would be a SOLO compound determination.

I have abused AAS excessively in the past and I can make very clear determinations as to one compound from another when running combos..but what must not be discounted is "Synergy" of multiple compounds at once, and the potential overlap of gains, etc.

I still think your research is valuable. I think it would be more ideal if you were only on Stano, or only on Stano with a regulated HRT/TRT dosage is all. Please do continue to comment. We should have 6-10 people here on SS able to comment on different Stano versions, so the combined evaluations of all of us would probably be best I would imagine?

We're on the same page, mate :D

[O_RYAN_007]

Don't know about the weed, but word on the TNT plus stano. I'm on trt, so both my Parabolan/EpiAndron and currentTrenA/Stano runs have had a modest (physiologic) test foundation. Just scored 40ml each of Test E and Tren E, though, so will be planning a more ambitious version of the same in the future,

The weed is just to keep me cool and calm once I get home from my evening training session. It's helped me in the way of getting sleep without the need to Melatonin or any other sleep aid. It also helps reduce my aggression and dickheadedness, LOL! I just use it once an evening and it has played an amazing role in getting me and keeping me asleep.

[h2s]

The weed is just to keep me cool and calm once I get home from my evening training session. It's helped me in the way of getting sleep without the need to Melatonin or any other sleep aid. It also helps reduce my aggression and dickheadedness, LOL! I just use it once an evening and it has played an amazing role in getting me and keeping me asleep.

A post out workout smoke is one of the best ways to relax, spark an appetite and get proper rest. I don't encourage anyone to abuse rec drugs, but I encourage those with a negative view towards it's usage while participating in this sport, to consider it's supplemental benefits. Remember, there are methods besides smoking of using it.

[O_RYAN_007]

A post out workout smoke is one of the best ways to relax, spark an appetite and get proper rest. I don't encourage anyone to abuse rec drugs, but I encourage those with a negative view towards it's usage while participating in this sport, to consider it's supplemental benefits. Remember, there are methods besides smoking of using it.

Yes, I will explore these non smoking methods soon, very soon.

[Cdsnuts]

Yes, I will explore these non smoking methods soon, very soon.

Vape it.

[Scope75]

Yes, I will explore these non smoking methods soon, very soon.

Spend the coin and get yourself a Volcano Vaporizer....
Bought myself one a while back and haven't touched my bong until this weekend and I can honestly say the Vaporizing high is better and cleaner than smoking.

[naeydrin]

Cookies.

[weekend]

Spend the coin and get yourself a Volcano Vaporizer....
Bought myself one a while back and haven't touched my bong until this weekend and I can honestly say the Vaporizing high is better and cleaner than smoking.

totally worth it 100%

do it ryan

classic not digital.

[ryhigh]

Spend the coin and get yourself a Volcano Vaporizer....
Bought myself one a while back and haven't touched my bong until this weekend and I can honestly say the Vaporizing high is better and cleaner than smoking.

This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Best investment ive ever made. I have the regular bags and a 8ft long party bag, nothing compares!!!! So mellow, so clean and you get the best tasting hits. Also you can put the vaped herb into capsules and swallow them to get a good body high, the Vape activates the THC and leaves some in the buds, so you can get twice the pleasure out of your herb.

[Cdsnuts]

This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Best investment ive ever made. I have the regular bags and a 8ft long party bag, nothing compares!!!! So mellow, so clean and you get the best tasting hits. Also you can put the vaped herb into capsules and swallow them to get a good body high, the Vape activates the THC and leaves some in the buds, so you can get twice the pleasure out of your herb.

I've never heard of this! I thought the point of the vape was to get it all out of the buds without combustion? The way it looks when it's done you'd assume that nothing good was left in them.....

[ryhigh]

I've never heard of this! I thought the point of the vape was to get it all out of the buds without combustion? The way it looks when it's done you'd assume that nothing good was left in them.....

I was skeptical at first cause I heard the same, but after many times of trying it I must say it works great! Vaping burns most of the THC in the gland and hairs but some is still left in the bud, enough to cap and eat lol. It takes a little longer to hit than eddibles but its worth it. Ive made brownies with it before but you get a burnt-like taste so capping it ive found to be the best.

[Scope75]

I'm going to make some butter with my vaped buds.
1-2oz vaped buds in 4-8oz butter should make for some interesting Bulletproof Coffee.

Classic with Solid Valve over Digital and Easy valve all day.

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/null_zps0b2f1a63.jpg

[O_RYAN_007]

My comment shifted the conversation of this thread, sorry gents! I'll def look into the vape!!!!!

[h2s]

Man, I have always talked myself out of it, but you guys are making it seem too good.

[Sperwer]

Have I overstayed my welcome at the House of Stano (IronMag)?

I started noticing last week that the Stano doesn't seem to be producing the same vascularity/hardening, or any of the ancillary strength and libido enhancing, effects. Upped the dose to 1200/day three days ago and still pretty flat. I reckon it's the adaptation syndrome,


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[burlyman30]

Have I overstayed my welcome at the House of Stano (IronMag)?

I started noticing last week that the Stano doesn't seem to be producing the same vascularity/hardening, or any of the ancillary strength and libido enhancing, effects. Upped the dose to 1200/day three days ago and still pretty flat. I reckon it's the adaptation syndrome,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

I would agree with the adaptation effect. One thing that continued to progress when I did long term AH was muscle and joint stiffness.

[Sperwer]

I would agree with the adaptation effect. One thing that continued to progress when I did long term AH was muscle and joint stiffness.

That too. I will take at least 8 weeks off this stuff when the current bottle is finished. I'm a stiff old coot, anyway, but I'm curious to see what the baseline is. Everyone here sits on the floor most of the time, even out at restaurants. Lately my daughter has smilingly asked me if i wanted help as i maneuvered to lever myself up off the floor. Will be interesting to see if it gets any easier.

In the meantime, I've started to re-learn how to swim (as distinct from not just drown); i plan to try a triathlon next November. It's made a huge difference in flexibilty; i now can actually do the thoracic rotations necessary for doing the crawl and backstroke properly, which i couldn't do a month ago.

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[WesleyInman]

I would agree to the tightness, inflexibility and hardening of the muscles effect after quite some time. I actually came off now for a week and a half and I am much more mobile and flexible then 1.5 weeks ago. Tightness wise I am actually not as stiff already, so on a good note, this effect for me got out of my system pretty quickly. Mind you the day this competition ends I am going back on the new PN version.

I love how my body looks on these compounds, epi andro rx and the stano by LGI which I will say was slightly weaker, but still did a damn good job. I'm still very happy with both of these products, cant wait to try Mike's PN version.

[b_oconnor]

Just placed an order for some PN protein and a bottle of the epi andro!

[Scope75]

Just placed an order for some PN protein and a bottle of the epi andro!

Just a heads up you need at least 2 bottles to run 2x2 for 4 weeks. I'd just grab the 4 pack to save a little cash and get a good run out of it.

[b_oconnor]

Yea I talked to wes a little about it. Cannot afford the 4 pack until my next paycheck (a week from tomorrow) but most of my other products are coming in by Wednesday of next week so I just ordered the first bottle so I can at least start it.

[b_oconnor]

Once I get my next paycheck and/or my income tax refund im gonna be buying enough bottles to run 2x2x1 (5) a day.

[b_oconnor]

Hey Wes, I sent you a message on your website, think something went wrong somewhere in the shipping or maybe im just dumb lol. If you could read it and get back to me please. Thanks!

[xxiv]

Hey Wes, I sent you a message on your website, think something went wrong somewhere in the shipping or maybe im just dumb lol. If you could read it and get back to me please. Thanks!

if your order was incomplete it may because some itemes ship seperatly, happened to me and everthing came within a few days.

[b_oconnor]

if your order was incomplete it may because some itemes ship seperatly, happened to me and everthing came within a few days.

Well on his website it says everything was shipped on the 14th but usps hasnt updated anything on their website with an eta or anything, and on gymntonic it says that it all has shipped. So im lost as to where everything is at lol

[Enuke65]

USPS has been complete shit regarding tracking info as of late, so I wouldn't rely on that too much. Chances are you'll have it soon, Wes is super fast with shipping

[b_oconnor]

Ah ok, still doesnt make since why 2 of the 3 things i ordered would come in a different box. Maybe he does that to keep shipping costs down /shrug

[SoCal-Nutrition]

Ah ok, still doesnt make since why 2 of the 3 things i ordered would come in a different box. Maybe he does that to keep shipping costs down /shrug

I can't reply for Wes, but it's not uncommon for distributors to ship some products directly from the manufacturer.

either way, I'm sure Wes is on it.

[xxiv]

Ah ok, still doesnt make since why 2 of the 3 things i ordered would come in a different box. Maybe he does that to keep shipping costs down /shrug


I ordered a bunch of stuff from wes, some came directly from him and the other stuff came from their respective manufacturers. 3 packages for a single order. shipping was prompt, everything arrived within a few days. I could not have been happier with my order. Don't worry.

[Scope75]

I ordered a bunch of stuff from wes, some came directly from him and the other stuff came from their respective manufacturers. 3 packages for a single order. shipping was prompt, everything arrived within a few days. I could not have been happier with my order. Don't worry.

X2
Wes is legit and will come threw as soon as he gets the chance.

[Scope75]

Wonder if Wes can tell we all like his CS. Lol

Hell all the sponsors are legit around here. I always order without a second thought.

[b_oconnor]

I ordered a bunch of stuff from wes, some came directly from him and the other stuff came from their respective manufacturers. 3 packages for a single order. shipping was prompt, everything arrived within a few days. I could not have been happier with my order. Don't worry.

Ok cool. I've ordered from Wes before and was very happy. This was just the first time I've seen one order from the same website in different packages. Thanks for the responses!

[SoCal-Nutrition]

Hope Wes doesn't mind me chiming in. but, Wes and I are buddies and I found out he's really sick at the moment. Please be patient if you're trying to get a hold of him.

And, I'm sure he already has everything in order

[b_oconnor]

Hope Wes doesn't mind me chiming in. but, Wes and I are buddies and I found out he's really sick at the moment. Please be patient if you're trying to get a hold of him.

And, I'm sure he already has everything in order

Not sure why I didn't see this earlier then now, but I was about to post the same thing. Wes just told me he was sick and will get with me tomorrow. Knew something wasn't right.

[WesleyInman]

Hey Swole Source.

FYI i read this one msg above me.

My daughter and i have 103 degree fevers..and i have slept maybe 3 hours in 2 days..Literally seeing things from sleep deprivation.

All orders have shipped as of today. I see 10 private msgs here..will get back to in the am.

I get about 5-700 texts per day and 100's of emails..so I wanna ask you guys for patience.

U know if something is late..or missing i will get you partial discount or discount next time..etc..

This is the only forum im letting u guys know..bc its my favorite.

Everywhere else will have to wait.

[Scope75]

Hope you and your daughter get and feel better soon.

[Scope75]

My thoughts after 21 days on Epi Andro RX..
From my log

Yeah not sure where these workouts are coming from but I just go by feel and the only reason I stop at the end is because of time or I could just keep on going and going. The Epi Andro RX has me feeling like a king and workouts are getting smoked like blunts around here. Lol
In all seriousness thou IML's Epi Andro RX is the real deal and at 6 caps a day I'm just unstoppable in and out of the gym.
Now I really can't wait to get some of PNs Trest into the mix!!!

Really likening everything about this product and I'm shocked at how 300mg of the active a day feels about like 500-600mg of PPs AHv1. I'd guess 8 caps would feel like 750-1000mg of pp AHv1 if not 9-10 caps would be for sures. Again for taking so little active compound I'm shocked at how I'm feeling and performing right now.

[burlyman30]

Good review and comparison, scope.

[Scope75]

Good review and comparison, scope.

I know you liked PPs AHv1 but have tried IML's Epi Andro RX?
I think you'd be the man to compare the 2 since you had cases of PPs AHv1.

[burlyman30]

I know you liked PPs AHv1 but have tried IML's Epi Andro RX?
I think you'd be the man to compare the 2 since you had cases of PPs AHv1.

I have not yet tried the epiandro RX.

And the operative word was "had" cases. Haha. I haven't used any for probably close to 2 years, and have only one bottle left. :mad:

[Scope75]

I have not yet tried the epiandro RX.

And the operative word was "had" cases. Haha. I haven't used any for probably close to 2 years, and have only one bottle left. :mad:

I bet you Wes would probably trade you a 4 pack of Epi Andro RX for that bottle. Lol
Who knows that could be the LAST bottle out there thou.

[Turbo6GN]

I bet you Wes would probably trade you a 4 pack of Epi Andro RX for that bottle. Lol
Who knows that could be the LAST bottle out there thou.

I've often thought about that, I'd bet my left nut that there is some dude out there who hasn't been to the gym in a few years, has lots of other priorities now, not interested in internet forums who has a box of V1 PP products that would blow your mind. Kinda like the guy with a Gretzky rookie card sitting in a shoe box in his closet. It's funny how this stuff is now considered to be hidden treasure, dudes asking $600 for a bottle of AHV3....

I have 2 full bottles of PP Turinabol but I'm not counting on them to be my retirement fund lol

[Scope75]

I've often thought about that, I'd bet my left nut that there is some dude out there who hasn't been to the gym in a few years, has lots of other priorities now, not interested in internet forums who has a box of V1 PP products that would blow your mind. Kinda like the guy with a Gretzky rookie card sitting in a shoe box in his closet. It's funny how this stuff is now considered to be hidden treasure, dudes asking $600 for a bottle of AHV3....

I have 2 full bottles of PP Turinabol but I'm not counting on them to be my retirement fund lol
That kinda made me said to think about that...
I have 3 or 4 bottles of PPs Tbol, 1 SuperDrone and like everything else I own its all for sale. Lol
Sure wish I had more Andro Series because those sold at higher prices than gold.

[Brazilianguy]

I have fat in my belly because I'm with hormonal problems I think I don't have much fat in my arms so do you guys think epiandro will help me to reduce the body fat in my belly? I want to use it to see if I get a libido boost, morning wood and the second thing I'd like to notice with it is a reduction in my body fat.

[Enuke65]

I have fat in my belly because I'm with hormonal problems I think I don't have much fat in my arms so do you guys think epiandro will help me to reduce the body fat in my belly? I want to use it to see if I get a libido boost, morning wood and the second thing I'd like to notice with it is a reduction in my body fat.

I had/have some fat in my midsection as well, but I think it's due to a carb and dairy problem (reads beer and pizza), not a hormonal problem, though I guess if you have enough adipose tissue it could become hormonal as well.
Anyway, is your diet in check? Gym routine? All that stuff first, then hormones man.
Though I guess if you were gonna jump right into stuff then epiandro wouldn't be the worst one to choose.

PS- If I come of as dickish, I'm not trying to be a dick

[Brazilianguy]

My diet and gym routine is ok. The problem is that I don't wake up with morning wood, have no libido, etc. I think this is the main reason I can't get rid off my midsection body fat it is like my muscle don't get dense or hard. That's why I want to try epiandro-hard (because it has more mg per capsule) from PN and see if I can get libido back, morning wood etc. My muscle hardness I think it is correlated with my issues but solving my issues is the main objective by running epiandro-hard. I used proviron 50mg per day and didn't notice much. Just clear mind and more energy through the day no libido increase or morning wood I'm affraid that taking epiandro-hard will give me the same thing proviron did. But I read proviron is not much androgenic it is just strong to attach into the androgen receptor even woman take proviron and don't get any masculine signs like more hair, deeper voice etc.

[Enuke65]

Have you had a hormone panel lately? That would probably provide more insight into whats going on, rather than trying to negate symptoms with more hormones.
Epiandro may provide some temporary relief but when you come off it you may go back to having the same issues because you have some underlying issue.
Get some bloods and throw them up in the Men's Health section, I'm sure someone (probably Jelsie) will chime in and give some better advice.

[ctAL]

ok so i made up my mind..........i am gonna do iml epi andro solo at 6 caps per day.

what else should i get for on cycle and pct?

[GYMnTONIC.com]

ok so i made up my mind..........i am gonna do iml epi andro solo at 6 caps per day.

what else should i get for on cycle and pct?

So far I have seen clients Bloodwork on about 3-400mgs ED at highest.

Epi Andro has shown in all of the users to be very mild and not liver toxic, according to labs. This would correlate with the theory. Long term, I can't say, but these are 60 day runs.

Def have heard some people claim that by end of cycle, they feel like prostate may be swollen, or irritated slightly, nothing horrific, but after long term use, weakened urine stream, loss of ejaculatory volume (which is common on AAS/PH regardless), etc..

DHT levels def high. So the biggest concern I see using these compounds would be potential hair loss or thinning for anyone predisposed to Male Pattern Baldness.

What I have my clients run is this exact protocol as a base. Should they choose more products, that is their call.

Epi andro by Iron Mag Labs or Prescription Nutrition are the top 2 versions IMO.
Liv52 by Himalaya
Nizoral 2%- topical shampoo to protect the hairline.
Cabaser aka dostinex at .5mgs E3d **optional**
Vitamin C


The biggest dispute that is going on right now, which I will admit I began this issue on IML last year, is that I personally believe that saw palmetto reduces the effectiveness of Epi andro. Not 'Eliminate" but "reduce". I do not have month to month labs to prove this, simply medical theory.

What I have found is that the people that argue with me about Saw Palmetto is a bad idea while using epi andro are those forums who retail products with saw palmetto in their organ support. For example on forums where IML products are, alot of guys fought me tooth and nail on this. Why? Because Advanced Cycle Support (ACS) their support product, has saw palmetto in it. So imo, this is a conservative attempt to save sales. $$$$. And don't get me wrong, I love the guys there, IML is awesome, products are good, company is good..ACS is great..but I am not going to give wrong information in order to preserve sales for ANY company. That's just what it is..

Now mind you, the potential for prostate being "temporarily enlarged" I would say is a 100% "possibility". I have not seen this in younger users, more so in older experienced athletes who have long term AAS use/abuse and PH use/abuse. This would show itself in weak urine streams, painful urination, weak ejaculatory volume, painful ejaculation, etc, etc..

Also remember, DHT is used to treat BPH, or prostate enlargement. Prostate enlargement and cancer is actually linked to high estrogen levels in users who are in the 2nd stage of growth. Users with long term increased hormonal levels are more at risk.

This would make sense because most likely these users are already on HRT, dosing AAS, other PH's, and they likely already have either some enlargment, possibly some damage pre-existing, etc, etc, etc...so an increase in DHT would very quickly manifest itself in the form of changes to urine stream, changes to sexual abilities and volume, etc, etc..

So my thought is this, unless you have a pre-existing issue, or your prostate is already enlarged, you should not use any type of DHT blocker such as Finasteride, Saw Palmetto while on. These are in alot of organ supports, that you may not be aware of..but this is a good thing, saw palmetto is a very good product.

This is why I have them use Nizoral 2%, because it is topically used on the scalp and targeting that area. People argue that it is systemic. Nizoral 2% is not strong enough to remotely compare to use of Saw Palmetto or Finasteride which are taken orally and intentionally systemic blocking as much DHT as possible. "IF" ketocanzole enters the blood stream through topical application to the scalp, it is minimally intrusive at best. This is the best option to have optimal DHT levels, minus hair loss.

What I would rather see my clients do is to do a 45-60 day run, without it. Deal with the minimal enlargment if it occurs and then during PCT introduce saw palmetto and other products at that time. 45-60 days IMO is not going to cause permanent damage to someone that does not have a pre-existing condition. It is very temporary.

Think of testicle atrophy for example. This is a common accepted potential side effect that is easily reversible. It just goes with the territory.

Cabaser as an option, why?

As men age, their prolactin levels can increase, and this produces 5 alpha reeducates. Essentially this converts testosterone into even more DHT..so if you are supplementing with AAS/HRT, on top of EPI ANDRO one has to realize that you are getting even more DHT then you think, since you have the synthetic form being consumed daily and then your body is converting a percentage of the additional testosterone (AAS/HRT) into it.

Solution, Cabaser. Eliminate prolactin. Also lowering prolactin levels also increases DHT. Cabaser has also been shown to improve libido and sexual ability, so this is a good thing. Since high prolactin levels reduce gnrh and lh, etc..which you don't want to happen.

Keeping your prolactin levels low on any cycle is important, but may be even more beneficial while using DHT and Testosterone combined.

Anti-Estrogen??

I say NO. Why? Well DHT is an anti estrogen. If you have ever run epi andro or stanolone, or other versions of DHT, and you had a small nodule, or pre-gyno, you will notice it can shrink and make it go away.

DHT does NOT convert to estrogen.

PCT-

Depends. Some users have experienced pretty mild shutdown based simply on a pretty quick return to natural Testosterone levels, 2-3 months after discontinuation..but truthfully there is not enough long term data to prove this.

Primarily the users I have seen with Epi andro are using AAS or other compounds, so I cannot say effectively speculate what is shutting them down the most, their epi andro or the 2-3 other compounds they are running.

That or they are remaining on AAS/HRT after the epi andro cessation, so PCT is not a requirement at that time.

I'd always suggest a strong PCT for any PH/AAS use, regardless. It's relatively safe,not super expensive, etc..

I have seen alot of guys just going back to Clomid and Nolva for PCT, or HCG/Nolva clomid.. I won't get into the argument of "PCT", not even in the least. I am of the belief there are dozens of effective ways to return HPTA. Something I don't personally like to discuss is PCT protocols, because alot of people will just argue to argue on forums, and 100% of the time i have given a protocol on a forum, someone else says to run it a different way, or the person getting the advice questions it. "well on bodybuilding.com, an 18 year old experts says you should take Ralox and this and this and that.."1144

I will not take the stance that one version is better then others. Often on forums you will see people claiming there way is the "only" way, or studies show this, studies show that. Stick with what you have found works for you. If you do not have a current protocol, go with a basic Clomid and Nolva protocol. We have seen in the past 15-20 years Bodybuilders on the internet,showing blood work that would validate that basic Clomid/Nolva protocol "can" be very effective.

Hope this helps :)

[Cdsnuts]

The biggest dispute that is going on right now, which I will admit I began this issue on IML last year, is that I personally believe that saw palmetto reduces the effectiveness of Epi andro. Not 'Eliminate" but "reduce". I do not have month to month labs to prove this, simply medical theory.



I was under the impression that Epi Andro and similiar compounds were already 5ar reduced? The way Saw palmetto works to block DHT is by inhibiting this enzyme, so the T to DHT conversion never happens. With these compounds,(epi, androhard, etc.) you're already past that point, so technically Saw palmetto wouldn't do anything to the exogenous production of DHT, only the endogenous production, which if you're running these compounds, wouldn't really matter much at that point.

[markam]

I was under the impression that Epi Andro and similiar compounds were already 5ar reduced? The way Saw palmetto works to block DHT is by inhibiting this enzyme, so the T to DHT conversion never happens. With these compounds,(epi, androhard, etc.) you're already past that point, so technically Saw palmetto wouldn't do anything to the exogenous production of DHT, only the endogenous production, which if you're running these compounds, wouldn't really matter much at that point.

Interesting, but is this fact?

[Cdsnuts]

Yes, this is scientific fact. I was being polite and not trying to "call anyone out." And the reason I know it's fact is because of my own miserable experiences fucking with the 5ar enzyme. Alot of us guys over at the propecia site had to become weekend warrior scientists/endocrinologists so we could get our lives back. This is also how I know that Saw Palmetto extract can be just as dangerous to certain predisposed individuals as propecia. They both inhibit 5ar. This is how they illicit their DHT lowering effects.

I also had alot of back and forth with Eric concerning this issue years ago. I still have his emails somewhere.

You can just do a simple search to find this, or, you can actually just look right at the white papers for Epi Andro which is linked to their website.

This excerpt is from page 3:

"Epiandrosterone is 5a-reduced, like DHT, meaning it will not 5a-reduce in androgen-sensitive
tissues of the body (because it is 5a-reduced already), therefore the use of a 5a-r inhibitor to
reduce androgenic side-effects (like hair-loss or acne) is futile. Moreover, its inability to reduce
might enable more selective interaction in tissues which express 5a-r heavily (like the skin and
scalp) to reduce certain delta-4 steroids. It will also not aromatize.

http://www.ironmaglabs.com/pdf/Epi-Andro%20RX%20Explained.pdf

[Sperwer]

So how does one deal with BPH while avoiding 5a-r inhibitors?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cdsnuts]

That question has lots of answers depending on the individual. Just know, if your taking these compounds, your 5ar inhibitor isn't going to do anything. It's a matter of "having your cake and eating it too." Typically it just can't be done.

But then their is evidence that prostate swelling is actually caused by too much Estrogen, which would make sense, seeing as the prostate is the male equivalent of the uterus. When the human "template" is created, the sex organs are just non-descript masses. These masses are turned into the target organ by hormone signaling. When estro hits this mass (prostate/uterus), well, it turns into a uterus, whereas when test/DHT hits, it turns into the prostate. When estrogen rises in a man, the prostate is just doing what the hormones tell it to do, which is swell up, like a uterus, which is much, much bigger then the prostate. Even though it's been a prostate for the mans whole life, it's been that way because of his hormones.

I've never dealt with BPH, but I know alot of guys on the propecia site have had it bad because of out of control E. Most if not all of these guys got it under control by lowering their Estro load.

But, like most things concerning hormones, you need an accurate picture of what yours are doing at any given point to make a determination as to the correct course of action.

Still though, this doesn't explain why people complain of prostate issues after running DHT cycles? From my research, I suspect is has less to do with the DHT and more to do with another cause. That cause, I just don't know what it is. But seeing as DHT antagonizes Estrogen, I can't see how DHT in and of itself could cause prostate issues, rather then fix any issues someone may have had.

[BBG]

I thought:

High DHT + Low Estrogen reverses BPH
Low DHT + Any Estrogen levels stops BPH (doesn't reverse it)
High DHT + High Estrogen increases BPH

[ctAL]

gotdamn.............this is why i love swolesource.

[ctAL]

Still though, this doesn't explain why people complain of prostate issues after running DHT cycles? From my research, I suspect is has less to do with the DHT and more to do with another cause. That cause, I just don't know what it is. But seeing as DHT antagonizes Estrogen, I can't see how DHT in and of itself could cause prostate issues, rather then fix any issues someone may have had.

after doing my own reading the past 15 or 20 mins

THIS.....

btw i love this forum real world experience and smart people here

[burlyman30]

If they complain of prostate issues AFTER running DHT compounds rather than during, it makes perfect sense. If you stop running a dht compound, your androgen levels are low. At this point, even a normal amount of estrogen can/will aggravate the prostate. DHT does not lower estrogen, it simply is an androgen. With high androgen and moderate estrogen in the body, the androgen's effects simply "overpowers" the estrogen. But it doesnt eliminate or lower the estrogen. Go off the androgen and the rebound effect will occur if you do not have an AI/serm in place. Think of it in terms of two people on each end of a tug o war rope... and suddenly one guy lets go.

[markam]

So you're saying 'in laymans terms; running Saw Palmetto won't weaken the effect of Androhard or similar. This is of particular importance to me as Saw P really helps re peeing at night. I take it all year round.

[Cdsnuts]

I thought:

High DHT + Low Estrogen reverses BPH
Low DHT + Any Estrogen levels stops BPH (doesn't reverse it)
High DHT + High Estrogen increases BPH

I would tend to agree with this. Although I'm on the fence about Low DHT + Any estrogen, as if DHT was low antagonization of Estro wouldn't be balanced correctly, which could lead to issues. We all know that we need some Estrogen for things to work correctly, but that is some estrogen in a correctly balanced hormonal environment. I don't have facts to back that last statement up, just my opinion based on my studies.

[Cdsnuts]

If they complain of prostate issues AFTER running DHT compounds rather than during, it makes perfect sense. If you stop running a dht compound, your androgen levels are low. At this point, even a normal amount of estrogen can/will aggravate the prostate. DHT does not lower estrogen, it simply is an androgen. With high androgen and moderate estrogen in the body, the androgen's effects simply "overpowers" the estrogen. But it doesnt eliminate or lower the estrogen. Go off the androgen and the rebound effect will occur if you do not have an AI/serm in place. Think of it in terms of two people on each end of a tug o war rope... and suddenly one guy lets go.

This^^^^^^^^^yes. What I should have said was DURING the cycle, not after. That is what I don't understand. Based on all of this, how could someone have prostate issues during the DHT cycle.

- - - Updated - - -


So you're saying 'in laymans terms; running Saw Palmetto won't weaken the effect of Androhard or similar. This is of particular importance to me as Saw P really helps re peeing at night. I take it all year round.

That is correct. It is simply past the point of being able to do anything to exogenous substances. UNLESS there is some other mechanism of action that is unknown or undocumented. (with saw palmetto) You are your best guinea pig.

[ctAL]

If they complain of prostate issues AFTER running DHT compounds rather than during, it makes perfect sense. If you stop running a dht compound, your androgen levels are low. At this point, even a normal amount of estrogen can/will aggravate the prostate. DHT does not lower estrogen, it simply is an androgen. With high androgen and moderate estrogen in the body, the androgen's effects simply "overpowers" the estrogen. But it doesnt eliminate or lower the estrogen. Go off the androgen and the rebound effect will occur if you do not have an AI/serm in place. Think of it in terms of two people on each end of a tug o war rope... and suddenly one guy lets go.


so with that being said..............even a compond like this, solo.......not even stacked to be safe run a serm like clomid in PCT

[burlyman30]

so with that being said..............even a compond like this, solo.......not even stacked to be safe run a serm like clomid in PCT

I'd say yes "to be safe", though how you feel and what blood work tells you are excellent guides in what to do. Some guys have no prostate or other issues and only experience very mild testosterone suppression which comes back without a PCT after dht compounds.

[ctAL]

sounds good

[WesleyInman]

In all fairness, I was expecting to hear disagreement..not calling me or anyone out, we are all a close knit group, so I'd rather think of it as a friendly discussion to try and figure out what the deal is...no one here, myself included can say for a 100% fact what it is..we can simply give our beliefs and experiences as to why :)

For one, this is so complex of an understanding and for 2 there is such a lack of research in the area, that likely if and when it is determined it will be trial and error by a bunch of bodybuilders LOL..which is the way it often has happened.


So why do I believe based on the above information that Saw Palmetto will reduce the effectiveness of EPI ANDRO compounds?

Saw Palmetto contains fatty acids that can inhibit the spread of testosterone. This can deter testosterone from converting into DHT. Saw Palmetto hinders the binding of DHT to androgen receptors

DHT also binds to other receptors, for example at the hair follicle, and this is why it is theorized to weaken, etc..

So in lamens terms..lets say your body is getting DHT from a shot, a pill, a transdermal, or your body was making it on its own. The structure, even if Epi andro is (5-AR) reduced (which I cannot say is true or not) is still considered a DHT molecule..no matter when where or how it happens.

If the theory that it binds to a receptor is true, then when saw palmetto or finasteride enter the system, they also work by adhering to dht that is present at the receptor and eliminating it.

The issue with people having prostate issues while on DHT, again, to me I would theorize that it is in men with existing issues, enlargement or past abuses of AAS...and it's simply becoming inflammed once again, and/or estrogen levels being high are also part of the mix.

None of the younger guys or new guys to AAS/PH have once told me of weak urine streams/sexual issues, etc..but 75% or more of the guys who have abused AAS for years, or PH's, or that were even on long term HRT have told me of some of these issues.

It is very very difficult to make full sense of.

As another example, look at Epistane (Havoc)...in theory that is used to treat and prevent gyno in normal males, or in males using AAS, etc..Now in theory, it is said that it cannot convert, etc, etc..but I can tell you for a fact I have run probably 20+ guys on Epistane and maybe in 25-50% they had issues with pregyno etc...

What I will say is that this is certainly a great topic to discuss with all of you, since we can respectfully go back and forth..

If we were anywhere else, people would be rude, name calling, etc, etc...

What I will say is my theory,is my "belief" of how the mechanism works from my understanding of DHT and it's application. I can't say for a fact I am 100% correct :) :) But I absolutely believe that saw palmetto and finasteride weaken the effects of the Epiandro compound aka stanolone aka DHT. To what extent?? I cannot say.

[Freepressright]

That question has lots of answers depending on the individual. Just know, if your taking these compounds, your 5ar inhibitor isn't going to do anything. It's a matter of "having your cake and eating it too." Typically it just can't be done.

But then their is evidence that prostate swelling is actually caused by too much Estrogen, which would make sense, seeing as the prostate is the male equivalent of the uterus. When the human "template" is created, the sex organs are just non-descript masses. These masses are turned into the target organ by hormone signaling. When estro hits this mass (prostate/uterus), well, it turns into a uterus, whereas when test/DHT hits, it turns into the prostate. When estrogen rises in a man, the prostate is just doing what the hormones tell it to do, which is swell up, like a uterus, which is much, much bigger then the prostate. Even though it's been a prostate for the mans whole life, it's been that way because of his hormones.

I've never dealt with BPH, but I know alot of guys on the propecia site have had it bad because of out of control E. Most if not all of these guys got it under control by lowering their Estro load.

But, like most things concerning hormones, you need an accurate picture of what yours are doing at any given point to make a determination as to the correct course of action.

Still though, this doesn't explain why people complain of prostate issues after running DHT cycles? From my research, I suspect is has less to do with the DHT and more to do with another cause. That cause, I just don't know what it is. But seeing as DHT antagonizes Estrogen, I can't see how DHT in and of itself could cause prostate issues, rather then fix any issues someone may have had.

I have never felt comfortable fucking with saw palmetto. If it works in a similar fashion to Propecia, then to me, that's enough to scare me away.

[ctAL]

ok my last time saying it

love this forum

[Cdsnuts]

In all fairness, I was expecting to hear disagreement..not calling me or anyone out, we are all a close knit group, so I'd rather think of it as a friendly discussion to try and figure out what the deal is...no one here, myself included can say for a 100% fact what it is..we can simply give our beliefs and experiences as to why :)


Yeah Wes.....no doubt. That's why I said what I said. My point was I didn't want to come across like I was trying to call anyone out. I was simply disagreeing. Poor choice of words on my part. i've got too much respect for everyone here.

[WesleyInman]

Yeah Wes.....no doubt. That's why I said what I said. My point was I didn't want to come across like I was trying to call anyone out. I was simply disagreeing. Poor choice of words on my part. i've got too much respect for everyone here.

:) Absolutely CD :) Everyone here is amazing..you as well.

This is why I'd much rather bring up this topic here..and get some good back and forth going..I think their is sufficient info on both our views for someone to choose :) I don't even care if anyone agrees with me, but at least consider it as an option. I do want to know about the idea that epi andro is (5-AR) reduced..I know nothing about that. I am not saying it is not possible..I seriously don't know. Please feel free to post that info up..I'm all ears and want to know!!

Like CTAL said, this forum is the best. Much respect to you CDS :) and everyone at SS :)