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JakkCity
11-14-2013, 04:58 PM
Hey Swolesters,:cool:

1st time poster and been reading a lot of information on here. Let me apologize if this is the wrong board to post on:confused:. I have been reading a lot about PCT and there is so much info out here in cyber world, that it's starting to run together and become confusing to a 1st timer. Let me start off with some info about myself.
-I am 30 yr male, 5'8'', :(155lbs and try to work out 3-5 times a week with some cardio. Also had test checked -478

Goal- I don't want to blow up to be 200lbs. Realistic goal that I have in mind is 165-170lbs with nice shoulders, arms and chest. BF% i would GUESS 15%.
The cycle I will be running is: Sustanon 250 1mL every 5-6days(10weeks) then at wk 7 adding Masteron-100 3xWk @ 1 mL for final 3 weeks. Like I said 1st cycle so I am not going extreme, Just testing the waters. I also know Masteron is better suited for lower bf%. Thought of using this to help with the test water retention and such.

My main question is what PCT would be best for this cycle? I want to have kids someday and don't want to become permanently sterile and zero testosterone. I've read all over this site and others about ppl using Clomid, nolva etc. I just want levels to return to normal after the cycle. Also what dose and for how long would be appreciated. Once again, thanks for any info and sorry for being a total newb about all of this. Just wanting as much info as possible BEFORE starting.

Kind of thinking something like this:
WK:1-10 Sustanon 250
WK:7-10 Masteron 1mL 3xs a week (eod)
Wk:11-12 HCG 1x week@ 1000-2500??
Wk:13-16 Clomid 50/50/25/25
Maybe throw in some Formastanozol?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated especially from folks who have done this before. Just looking for tried and true methods, not so much on the actual cycle, but most important(especially to me) the PCT. Deff want the body to function as normal and be able to live a happy reproducing life:D

Jelisej
11-14-2013, 05:23 PM
First- your testosterone levels results are quite low, tough testosterone levels fluctuate a lot and are affected by lot of things- you may have had a flu or some brief illness which would "eat" your androgens- so another test would be needed, but so far it seems that you are already TRT candidate.

As for cycle- for more details best to ask Weekend, Burly and others as they have better knowledge in "stacking". I'll just add few observations:
I dont like it at all, hoestly- first Sustanon is a poor choice (IMO) as it is very difficult to calculate PCT and also it has short esters which lot of people dont tolerate well as they cause flu, so there is also "sustanon flu"- so I would switch that to testosterone enthanate
Second- I would run HCG through all of the cycle, 250-300 IU 3X a weeks, before or after test jabs, to keep things simple
Third- you nedd to have some AI on hand, preferably aromasin- you will probably need some, but how much it is impossible to tell as its diffent from person to person

As for PCT- clomid (max should be 25 ed or 50 eod), little bit of aromasin/exemestane, vitamin d 2000-5000 IU, also eating mixed nits helps a lot (or tocco-8) and optionally you can add viagra/cialis/taladafil as it also helps in raising test. levels
I would run PCT for at least 6 weeks+ taper 2 weeks

longBallLima
11-14-2013, 05:28 PM
Any special reason for the Sustanon?
are you 15% bf now or that's your goal? Plus, 10lbs is not a whole lot. If your goals are not a bit more hefty, you may wanna look into straight TRT or a reboot or something of that sort, since your Low T may be keeping your muscle mass down

xxiv
11-14-2013, 05:43 PM
optionally you can add viagra/cialis/taladafil as it also helps in raising test. levels


i did not know this.

Jelisej
11-14-2013, 05:49 PM
i did not know this.

No Wonder the FemBots Don't Like Vitamin V (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/general-discussion/1713-no-wonder-fembots-dont-like-vitamin-v.html)

You have some info here.

JakkCity
11-14-2013, 06:06 PM
Appreciate the info and quick response fellas. As for the T Levels, doc says I am not a candidate for RT since I dont fall below the 250-270 range. I know as well as all of you know it's bullshit. Whatever the case may be. Reasoning behind Sustanon, well to be quite honest not much of one except in my thinking which might be totally wrong, figured with the short and long esters combined I could get a good kickstart with the short esters, and have it in my body longer to get optimal gains with the long. Like I said, done a tone of researching and by this point, everything is running together so I am reaching out to others who have either done Sus, or another type of Test cycle. Ok, no more bull, I'd like to see 175, which would be about 20 lbs. Any more than that for me will be too much with my physical activities that I do. I was just guessing at the 15%. Goal wise id like to hit 10-12, but once again I am not into competitive lifting or anything like that. Just want to put on size for person well being and such. I have read about the sus flu, which is another reason I am waiting and getting more info. I have access to about anything really, but would like to stay with test no matter what. This is great info guys and I also didnt know about raising test by using viagra or cialis etc. Never thought to since I never had that problem ha.

Jelisej
11-14-2013, 06:40 PM
As for kickstarting cycle, you can start with for example test prop, and you may even finish with test prop (or maybe some oral AAS to close gap between last shot and PCT you may have issues with test prop as well- but it will be for 2+2 weeks rather than 12) but wold still go with test e, really- rather than sustanon, also as I said earlier calculating start of PCT is difficult task and with sustanon its much much more difficult as there are too many variables.

And make sure that you run HCG during whole cycle (and not after) and stop 3-4 days before PCT.


As for your testosterone levels, will get back to it some time after PCT.

JakkCity
11-14-2013, 09:18 PM
As for kickstarting cycle, you can start with for example test prop, and you may even finish with test prop (or maybe some oral AAS to close gap between last shot and PCT you may have issues with test prop as well- but it will be for 2+2 weeks rather than 12) but wold still go with test e, really- rather than sustanon, also as I said earlier calculating start of PCT is difficult task and with sustanon its much much more difficult as there are too many variables.

And make sure that you run HCG during whole cycle (and not after) and stop 3-4 days before PCT.


As for your testosterone levels, will get back to it some time after PCT.


So you are saying something along the lines like this...
wk 1-10 Test E (What dose? How many times?)
wk 1-10 HCG (at what dose and once a week?) Also read for test e to start it about wk 3 till eoc
wk 7-10 Masteron 3xs week @1mL
wk 1-10 Adex .25 ed or .50 eod

PCT
WK 12-16 Clomid 50/50/25/25 or Nolva 40/40/20/20 (Read some say to do both?)

I feel like I might be missing something here, so feel free to chime in. Thanks again!

weekend
11-14-2013, 09:34 PM
you'll be shutdown after only a few days on test. start hcg day 1.

Test E or C or P(my recommendation :)) week 1-10. if using test P do 50 mg ed. if using test E or C, do 200 mg 2x per week.
hCG week 1-12 250iu MWF
Masteron week 7-12 150 mg MWF (450/wk). if you want to avoid pinning frequently do that, or pin ED with less volume for less discomfort.
I prefer aromasin for an AI, adex is fine too. i have realized that everyone seems to respond differently to different AI's, so dosing recommendations are tough. if using adex, i would do .25 to .5 mg ed to start, you may need more.

PCT:
week 13 and on...

Clomid: 25/25/25/25/12.5/12.5/12.5EOD
Aromasin: 12.5 mg MWF at the beginning and then taper down by feel
Toremifene (Optional): 60/60/40/40/20/20/0

check bloods 6 weeks after PCT. if your test is still in the shitter, run some superdrol for a few days or something and then go to the doctor and your test will be bottomed out and you can get on TRT lol

milehighguy
11-14-2013, 09:44 PM
I agree with the amount of test weekend is recommending^^^

250 a week will not give you 20lbs IMO

O.N.
11-14-2013, 09:47 PM
As for kickstarting cycle, you can start with for example test prop, and you may even finish with test prop (or maybe some oral AAS to close gap between last shot and PCT you may have issues with test prop as well- but it will be for 2+2 weeks rather than 12) but wold still go with test e, really- rather than sustanon, also as I said earlier calculating start of PCT is difficult task and with sustanon its much much more difficult as there are too many variables.

And make sure that you run HCG during whole cycle (and not after) and stop 3-4 days before PCT.


As for your testosterone levels, will get back to it some time after PCT.

Why would you stop HCG during PCT? you are technically still on cycle until all the steroids clear your system enough to a point where they do not effect your natural production of testosterone. A typical 500mg test e per week cycle will stick around in your system for about 3 weeks post you last injection and during that entire time they will be effecting your natural testosterone production.

Additionally you said earlier above to use 250-300IU 3x per week of HCG, it has been found that 250IU 2x per week once it compounds in your system over several weeks actually equals 94% of a normal males LH output so taking anything more than that amount can and will cause over stimulation, in some cases it may not be a bad thing but it others it can be.

JakkCity
11-14-2013, 09:50 PM
you'll be shutdown after only a few days on test. start hcg day 1.

Test E or C or P(my recommendation :)) week 1-10. if using test P do 50 mg ed. if using test E or C, do 200 mg 2x per week.
hCG week 1-12 250iu MWF
Masteron week 7-12 150 mg MWF (450/wk). if you want to avoid pinning frequently do that, or pin ED with less volume for less discomfort.
I prefer aromasin for an AI, adex is fine too. i have realized that everyone seems to respond differently to different AI's, so dosing recommendations are tough. if using adex, i would do .25 to .5 mg ed to start, you may need more.

PCT:
week 13 and on...

Clomid: 25/25/25/25/12.5/12.5/12.5EOD
Aromasin: 12.5 mg MWF at the beginning and then taper down by feel
Toremifene (Optional): 60/60/40/40/20/20/0

check bloods 6 weeks after PCT. if your test is still in the shitter, run some superdrol for a few days or something and then go to the doctor and your test will be bottomed out and you can get on TRT lol

I'm not too "in touch" with HCG and total newb question. if your saying 250 3xs week, how much would i need to pick up? not sure the sizes they come in and/or price this runs. also Weekend I am not informed enough about aromasin. Any specific reason you like this over adex? just looking for opinions. Like I said, main thing to me, I want to put on size, and I understand I could lose some or all(depending on how hard I work to keep it) but most important to me, is having my test restored to what it at now or even more, and still being able to reproduce.. Also, you would run 7 weeks pct? Everywhere I have looked and read seems like the general consensus is 4. Not saying your wrong, cause I am new to all this, just would like to hear opinion. Personally I will do whatever to make sure I can get test back up and reproduce :)

weekend
11-14-2013, 09:52 PM
because hCG is suppressive. i actually plan to drop hCG and begin clomid a week before i stop using my short esters as a bit of an experiment. but the last thing i'll be using will only be mast for a week or a bit more so it's not as suppressive as test and may allow some function to begin to return. biggest reason is i want stable levels of clomid right from the get go.

weekend
11-14-2013, 09:57 PM
the PCT i have laid out would be very mild during the last 3 weeks. a taper of PCT drugs is beneficial as it doesn't send your body on a rollercoaster.

aromasin is a suicidal inhibitor (no estrogen rebound when stopping use), and doesn't effect lipid profile or libido as negatively as the reversible inhibitors do.

hCG comes in 5000 iu vials from our sponsor evolved, quality stuff. you won't need more than 2 or 3 vials.

- - - Updated - - -

i feel like most guys online are not well read enough and haphazardly parrot each other's info. they often seem to be setting themselves up for TRT sooner than later..

though i am fully aware at only 21 i myself am playing with fire..

JakkCity
11-14-2013, 10:09 PM
Something I really like and what brought me to this page, is peoples input and advice. I like the fact unlike other forums, people are not pushing products, or click here for the best blah blah bullshit like other sites. Just basic straight-forward input. Not saying "Oh your on this?, well you need these 3 test boosters, and 600$ of other bullshit so your dicky dew will work again and be stronger and bigger than ever haha. Keep the input coming fellas, Love to hear other members input on PCT for a Test E/Masteron Cycle. And thanks for the quick replies! Check ya guys out tomorrow! And weekend, I wasn't putting you in the same column as others who push products so they can get bigger discounts for themselves like other forums!

weekend
11-14-2013, 10:20 PM
also, don't use formastanzol or whatever, made by an idiot for idiots.

JakkCity
11-14-2013, 10:22 PM
also, don't use formastanzol or whatever, made by an idiot for idiots.

Roger That!

O.N.
11-15-2013, 08:32 AM
because hCG is suppressive. i actually plan to drop hCG and begin clomid a week before i stop using my short esters as a bit of an experiment. but the last thing i'll be using will only be mast for a week or a bit more so it's not as suppressive as test and may allow some function to begin to return. biggest reason is i want stable levels of clomid right from the get go.

HCG is suppressive to the hypothalamus and pituitary as it is taking their place and stimulating the testes to make testosterone, that isn't a bad thing when steroids are still circulating in your system, you should be using it whilst there are drugs still effecting natural testosterone production.

Do you go as fast as you can in your car when you are about to run out of gas? or do you cruise around easy until you find a gas station?

Whilst ever there are steroids present in your body at a level high enough to suppress testosterone you should be using HCG, once you say stop using test e then about 2-3 weeks later you can drop the HCG and the half life of the HCG will clear along with most of the remaining esters from what you have been taking, thus you will have a smooth transition from on cycle to off cycle.

Once the bodies testosterone levels dip slightly the hypothalamus and pituitary will release GNRH and LH/FSH almost straight away and your normal function will remain.

This part now is probably a whole other topic but have a think about the word SERM's eg nolva and clomid (selective estrogen receptor modulator's) selective meaning in some receptor sites it blocks estrogen from binding and in others it will not thus it does not remove estrogen from the body. So you blocked it in your breast receptor site and the hypothalamus but now it is free and in more abundance to go and run havoc on the rest of the body, stick with low dose AI's since they actually remove estrogen from the body compared to SERM's.

Jelisej
11-15-2013, 05:53 PM
Weekend made some excellent posts, unbeleivable how much knowledge he posses at only 21
only thing I would change a bit is injection frequency- test prop every day, or test e 3X a week, to keep more stable levels.

O.N.- I think you did not understand my post properly- as for HCG I did say stop 3-4 days before PCT and Weekend explained why it should not be used during PCT
I did not say how long till cessation of test e to start PCT- because I did not have exact details, and for example if one person is using 500 mg of test e and other one is using 600 mg of test e- their PCT will not start same time even tough they are using same compound.
I did suggest using some oral to "close gap" between last test e injection and PCT- which is good idea, IMO

Anyway- if he calculates everything properly, as you said recovery should be start immediately, tough how long it will take his endocrine system to top up levels is unknown- especially that we know that his test is already low- it is possible that his testosterone will be higher on PCT than natural
but it is possible that PCT will not work that well for him as he may be have "congenital" hypogonadism

Formula for calculating eliminating time:
1/1 100
1 1/2 50
2 1/4 25
3 1/8 12 .5
4 1/16 6 .25
5 1/32 3 .125
6 1/64 1 .563
7 1/128 0 .781

And on top of that there are some other circumstances that can affect elimination time- for example elimination time for one patient using xanax- half life was 15 hours but total elimination time was around 7 days- tough in most people after 24 hours there is no significant "action" as mostly there are left inactive metabolites- but under some circumstances it can stay active for much longer time

Another interesting case is with T3 (thyroid supplementation) as we know cortisol is needed to make use of T3 if there is no sufficient cortisol it will just "pool" in the blood- however if we introduce cortisol it will became active, and if there is too much unused T3 then patient usually ends up in ER because of "thyroid storm"- now T3 has a half life of 2.5 days yet people had "thyroid storm" sometimes almost two weeks after stopping T3, which proves that "stuff" can accumulate and stay in blood lot longer than people would think.

ExtraZeus
11-15-2013, 06:05 PM
Just curious about the clomid dosage that's been recommended. 100/50/50/25 ed is what I've always read, I think it's even in a sticky that way. Is this something new, run clomid longer at a lower dose to reduce sides or is it a better recovery?

Thanks in advance.

weekend
11-15-2013, 06:13 PM
It takes longer than the average bro thinks for your hpta to recover.

50 mg ed makes me moody, and 25 is shown in studies to be just as solid. Plus, the higher the dose the more risk for not only mood sides but also elevated estrogen and the biggest worry of all: ocular damage..

Jelisej
11-15-2013, 06:17 PM
yes, at this point we have sufficient evidence to say that 25 mg eod or 12.5 mg every day is enough to bring LH levels to the top.
Tough 25 mg ed or 50 mg eod is not big deal, people used to take some riddiculuos amounts before.

milehighguy
11-15-2013, 06:18 PM
From my experience 50 was plenty. I responded well and would never run anything over 50mg even right out of the gate. 100 seems really high. I'm sure guys have under dosed clomid from a research site which may explain that high of a dose. I will probably drop down to 25 next PCT just to see how it works.

Jelisej
11-15-2013, 06:24 PM
It takes longer than the average bro thinks for your hpta to recover.

50 mg ed makes me moody, and 25 is shown in studies to be just as solid. Plus, the higher the dose the more risk for not only mood sides but also elevated estrogen and the biggest worry of all: ocular damage..

HPTA recovers quite fast, from my observations mosto of people get their start of PCT calculations wrong, and even in middle of their PCT htey still have lot of 'roids in their blood
other thing is it still takes testosterone levels to top up, but if you check post PCT bloods of people using our swole recommended system, you'll see that at week 4 their tt is usually back to normal or even bit higher- now thruth is that even after PCT there are some fluctuations, and in some cases after PCT test. drops like rock and does not return back to normal, at the end of the day cycle is always a gamble but doing thing right makes things a lot, lot less risky

and really person should do blood tests 3 months after PCT to see real picture

JakkCity
11-15-2013, 09:15 PM
Well After all the info and knowledge/opinions that have been posted, I decided to hold off since I have set up an appointment with a endo to cover all bases. Really would hate to do anything until I find out everything is all normal(besides the obvious test level) Just want to make sure everything else is functioning properly 1st!

Only bad thing about setting up this appointment with a actual Endo, is they are much more busy than I realized. Going to have to wait till next month before I can get in.

Just curious to know for my own information, some of the people I have seen on this board have stated they are on TRT. Just curious what levels they tested at? Before TRT and During TRT (or after)

Sperwer
11-15-2013, 10:52 PM
Just curious to know for my own information, some of the people I have seen on this board have stated they are on TRT. Just curious what levels they tested at? Before TRT and During TRT (or after)

On a 2-8 scale of "normality":

Before - 0.14 (yep that's a decimal point)

Now - ~ 2 years on, 11

Age 63

Btw good call on getting tested




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

burlyman30
11-15-2013, 11:34 PM
Just in on this thread.

First off, welcome to the forum. You dove right in with some great questions.

You have been given some great recommendations so far regarding test E or C and also on the hcg.

I tend to think that 3 weeks of mast is a waste as far as getting measurable results that are in line with your goals, but if you want to experiment, then fine. Just don't get your hopes up on the outcome.

Regarding TRT... I was a mess. Lol. Tested at 100 on a scale of 300-800. TRT makes me functional again, but its not really anabolic at that level... I'm just in normal range now.

Jelisej
11-16-2013, 09:14 AM
Well After all the info and knowledge/opinions that have been posted, I decided to hold off since I have set up an appointment with a endo to cover all bases. Really would hate to do anything until I find out everything is all normal(besides the obvious test level) Just want to make sure everything else is functioning properly 1st!
Only bad thing about setting up this appointment with a actual Endo, is they are much more busy than I realized. Going to have to wait till next month before I can get in.
Just curious to know for my own information, some of the people I have seen on this board have stated they are on TRT. Just curious what levels they tested at? Before TRT and During TRT (or after)

before starting TRT there are few other options to explore- first I would test again as previous result may be affected by something like infection of flu, or many other things. Other thing is when you do blood test include Adrenals, thyroid as well as sex hormones (testosterone, E2) to get better picture of whats going on. Now if you results are low again you may try something like clomid restart, it may work and you may avoid TRT altogether as in some men it normalises hormone levels

Few threads that may be helpful to you:
Clomid For Men With Low Testosterone by Jeffrey Dach MD (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/779-clomid-men-low-testosterone-jeffrey-dach-md.html)

Clomid Reboot (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/801-clomid-reboot.html)

In meantime, re-check your diet, habits, avoid stress and make sure you get enough sleep- without proper sleep you cant have good hormone levels.

Cdsnuts
11-16-2013, 11:12 AM
Not trying to derail this thread, but you guys that are on TRT.....did you try everything possible to naturally get the juices flowing again before doing replacement? Or was it just so miserable of an existence that taking months do get yourself going again naturally just wasn't an option?

Jelisej
11-16-2013, 12:19 PM
Not trying to derail this thread, but you guys that are on TRT.....did you try everything possible to naturally get the juices flowing again before doing replacement? Or was it just so miserable of an existence that taking months do get yourself going again naturally just wasn't an option?

I'm not on TRT, tough I may join club at some point. Anyway- your question: "did you try everything possible to naturally get the juices flowing again before doing replacement?

Well, honestly there are not many possibilites there, really... Things like "SERM restart or clomid restart" work only for people who have "glitch" in a system, for people with congenital hypogonadism or with testicular trauma or damage or brain injury or infection that affects hypotalamus or pituary, it does not really work. Of all pre-TRT folks, restarts would work for minority of people.
Raising testosterone natural is usually expensive and it can only raise t levels for maybe 200 points, maybe bit more- so its ok if your natural levels are 600 ng/dl, if they are 300-400 even with raise using test boosters one will still be in "grey zone"
and most of this methods dont raise free test, apart of DAA which potentially can cause death of brain cells- and free test is what makes us happy
so unfortunately for majority TRT/HRT is best option. Another option is to improve financial status to as many homeopaths and research companies as possible. Thats good for economy, but usually not for patient.

Lastly- there are quite few folks out there who had tt levels of around 800 ng/dl, but with high SHBG levels they did not have much of it, as altough tt has its own receptors- it cannot cross blood-brain-barrier, and if it cant than it cant makes as happy.
Many of these guys were quite miserable (despite high tt), took testosterone injection and next day wake up as completely different person.

Cdsnuts
11-16-2013, 01:02 PM
I'm not on TRT, tough I may join club at some point. Anyway- your question: "did you try everything possible to naturally get the juices flowing again before doing replacement?

Well, honestly there are not many possibilites there, really... Things like "SERM restart or clomid restart" work only for people who have "glitch" in a system, for people with congenital hypogonadism or with testicular trauma or damage or brain injury or infection that affects hypotalamus or pituary, it does not really work. Of all pre-TRT folks, restarts would work for minority of people.
Raising testosterone natural is usually expensive and it can only raise t levels for maybe 200 points, maybe bit more- so its ok if your natural levels are 600 ng/dl, if they are 300-400 even with raise using test boosters one will still be in "grey zone"
and most of this methods dont raise free test, apart of DAA which potentially can cause death of brain cells- and free test is what makes us happy
so unfortunately for majority TRT/HRT is best option. Another option is to improve financial status to as many homeopaths and research companies as possible. Thats good for economy, but usually not for patient.

Lastly- there are quite few folks out there who had tt levels of around 800 ng/dl, but with high SHBG levels they did not have much of it, as altough tt has its own receptors- it cannot cross blood-brain-barrier, and if it cant than it cant makes as happy.
Many of these guys were quite miserable (despite high tt), took testosterone injection and next day wake up as completely different person.

It just seems like alot of guys are going to TRT that don't have any of the problems you mentioned. I could see it make sense to jump on if you have some of the congenital defects you speak of, but alot of times what we're seeing are guys that are just not taking care of themselves, putting their T in the basement and then jumping on TRT without doing what they should to clean up their acts. (Not talking about any of you guys, just what I see in general) That's why I'm asking....out of curiousity.

I was damaged by propecia years ago and have since made a full recovery. I used the info on this site Boost Your Low Testosterone! Increase Low T Levels Naturally (http://www.boost-your-low-testosterone.com) to get most of it done naturally. There is some great info on this site and not just your general run of the mill stuff. I thought about doing TRT as well, but wanted to exhaust all possible avenues of natural recovery before making a lifelong commitment.

The four cycles of androhard of course helped my body create the enzymes that were destroyed by propecia. That, and the numerous emails with Eric sent me back to the land of the living.

The point is, I wanted to share this info to guys that may find it usefull. Nothing more.

Jelisej
11-16-2013, 01:59 PM
I'm really glad for you bro', but more than anything else- you got lucky. You are one in thousand people with same problem who solved the problem, many others tried so many things with no avail. Also you are fairly young, if 50+ years old person suffers from low t, natural ways, restart usually dont help that much, and restarting to 500 ng/dl does not mean much.

Thing is, average person suffering from low testosterone is not in a good position and usually also suffer from depression etc... And not many people knows a lot about endocrine system- so if they go to endo and he prescribes them TRT, they will go on TRT, in other situations they get under influence of some anti-ageing clinic or some herbalist or sometimes they end up on "dark side" using AAS.... So lot depends on "pure chance", and other circumstances- for example if one is in Somalia- there are thin chances that he'll fix problems...

burlyman30
11-16-2013, 02:51 PM
Not trying to derail this thread, but you guys that are on TRT.....did you try everything possible to naturally get the juices flowing again before doing replacement? Or was it just so miserable of an existence that taking months do get yourself going again naturally just wasn't an option?

I never tried a SERM restart, but I spent a few years back and forth with OTC test boosters. Highest I ever remember being tested during that time was high 300s to low 400s. I was fighting an unwinnable battle, but I was trying to stay off TRT as long as I could. In the end, it was a simpler, cheaper and better option to go on TRT.

Cdsnuts
11-16-2013, 03:09 PM
I'm really glad for you bro', but more than anything else- you got lucky. You are one in thousand people with same problem who solved the problem, many others tried so many things with no avail. Also you are fairly young, if 50+ years old person suffers from low t, natural ways, restart usually dont help that much, and restarting to 500 ng/dl does not mean much.

Thing is, average person suffering from low testosterone is not in a good position and usually also suffer from depression etc... And not many people knows a lot about endocrine system- so if they go to endo and he prescribes them TRT, they will go on TRT, in other situations they get under influence of some anti-ageing clinic or some herbalist or sometimes they end up on "dark side" using AAS.... So lot depends on "pure chance", and other circumstances- for example if one is in Somalia- there are thin chances that he'll fix problems...

I won't doubt luck had a small part, but I won't discount the amount of work I put into getting there either. It wasn't just popping OTC test boosters either. It was a complete lifestyle change. Different exercise routines, completely different diet, testicle painting, ball zingers, edging, the whole nine yards. It was also in the WAY I took the T boosters. Cycling them in a specific way that most people don't do. It sucked for a long while but my persistence paid off.

I'm pretty sure if certain guys in certain situations just put in the work, they'ed be able to get there as well.

Cdsnuts
11-16-2013, 03:11 PM
I never tried a SERM restart, but I spent a few years back and forth with OTC test boosters. Highest I ever remember being tested during that time was high 300s to low 400s. I was fighting an unwinnable battle, but I was trying to stay off TRT as long as I could. In the end, it was a simpler, cheaper and better option to go on TRT.

Burly....do you find that you get the swings associated with TRT? Or have you got it down to the point where you administer your doses evenly enough so that that doesn't happen?

burlyman30
11-16-2013, 03:29 PM
Burly....do you find that you get the swings associated with TRT? Or have you got it down to the point where you administer your doses evenly enough so that that doesn't happen?

I am still fine tuning things. Endo had me at e10d, now at e7d. I can feel a drop by day 5, so I will be petitioning for 1/2 dose e4d at my next appointment.

Jelisej
11-16-2013, 03:54 PM
I won't doubt luck had a small part, but I won't discount the amount of work I put into getting there either. It wasn't just popping OTC test boosters either. It was a complete lifestyle change. Different exercise routines, completely different diet, testicle painting, ball zingers, edging, the whole nine yards. It was also in the WAY I took the T boosters. Cycling them in a specific way that most people don't do. It sucked for a long while but my persistence paid off.
I'm pretty sure if certain guys in certain situations just put in the work, they'ed be able to get there as well.

So, are you now off all test boosters or you still have to top up with supps?

JakkCity
11-16-2013, 04:41 PM
As I think back, I never really had any type of flu or sickness. I've worked on call for years and then all of a sudden I started getting anxiety, mind was racing 1,000 miles an hour, hands shaking etc. went to the doc and was put on a low dose of anxiety medicine aka depression med (deff not a depressed person at all) by about day 3 of the new pill, anxiety was a lot better, got better sleep etc. Went to the gym to work out, which I normally work out anywhere from 1.5-2 hrs heavy weights. Anyway, 3 days into the pills I struggled and was completely exhausted/fatigued after 20 mins. Thought I just needed a couple days off, but after a break and still on the pill i still could only manage 15-20 mins and had no focus, tired, yawning etc. Told the doc so they switched meds(cant remember the name) and still bad workouts and couldnt get it up. Basically she said my next option was Xanax, but I opted not to(maybe if I was 18 I'd jump all over that). Always tried different test boosters, and used the usual whey protein, pwo, aminos etc, and even upping dosages on workout supps just to see if it would help feel any better was unsuccessful. Reason I am looking into the endo for answers.

I know a lot of my buddies who are using testosterone and say they all feel great like they are 18 again and are pushing some good weight, so I started looking into it myself(and still am) but would like to see if there is anything my doc has missed that the endo will pick up.

Jelisej
11-16-2013, 04:55 PM
"but would like to see if there is anything my doc has missed that the endo will pick up. "

Yes, that is exactly what you should do, investigate.

Hormones and neurotransmitters are tightly connected, and they influence each other- any kind of hormonal problem (which can be caused by million reasons) will reflect on neurotransmitters which results in one or more of following- anxiety, depression, irritability, lack of motivation etc.... And it also reflects on central nervous system...
So if you find root problem and fix it, your training and wellbeing in general will improve.

Cdsnuts
11-16-2013, 06:43 PM
So, are you now off all test boosters or you still have to top up with supps?

No....thankfully I am good to go. Thank God. That part of my life was a living hell. I can sympathize with people who are dealing with those symptoms. At my worst, life just didn't seem worth living. It was such a hassle to have to plan my functioning around my supps so that I could perform when I needed to. It caused all kinds of undue anxiety. It is such a liberating feeling to function normally again and be able to perform at the drop of a hat. No taking cialis or viagra or making sure I had boosted my hormones with supplements that day......

That is why I loved PP so much. I was able to cycle relatively completely safe compounds and always came out the other end of a cycle BETTER then when I went in. This to me was worth every penny they charged. I'm one of those guys who don't mind paying for the safety aspect of those products. I still pick up androhard if I can find it and I pay the premium price too. Because of where I've been, I'm nervous to try any other product, which is why I haven't. I would hate to put myself back into a subpar hormonal situation after what I've come back from.

Androhard, Androdrive and dermacrine are the only compounds I've used and continue to use because I don't miss a beat when it comes to recovering. Pct is always smooth sailing.

YOu did mention something that has alarmed me though in regards to DAA. I use TCF-1 in PCT but never heard of any reports of brain damage from that supplement. That is obviously something that has me on edge and thinking twice about using it again. Can you provide your source for this information?

Jelisej
11-16-2013, 07:44 PM
NMDA receptors when overstimulated cause nerve cell death and lessions in brain because of excitotoxicity- as a matter of fact in animal studies NMDA itself is used to induce brain lesions to order due to precisely this effect of killing brain cells. DAA is NMDA agonist so logically in sufficient amount can cause excitotoxicity/neurotoxicity.
DAA is present in small quantities endogenously, but that doesn't mean that exogenous DAA supplementation is safe- as we don't know at what dose exitotoxicity might become significant- as a matter of fact whole idea of DAA supplementation is to cause NMDA receptor stimulation at levels significantly higher than what would occur endogenously in order to try to stimulate the HPTA- which could obviously cause problems- we dont know for sure as not many studies were done on DAA- so in the end it comes to wheter one wants to give it a benefit of doubt.
IMO potential risk overweight benefits, and there are lot of reports of people having issues with DAA including myself- I never had any prolactin issues before I used DAA, it can also be coincidence- but there are other similar reports.