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View Full Version : Do steroids cause permanent gains in the User, even after discontinuation?



WesleyInman
11-30-2013, 01:43 PM
This study seems to believe it to be true.


Article:
Testosterone propionate can have permanent effect on muscles, says animal study (http://www.ergo-log.com/testosterone-propionate-can-have-permanent-effect-on-muscles-animal-study.html)

Any thoughts or comments?

burlyman30
11-30-2013, 02:10 PM
I can comment from a personal level on this.

In my youth I bulked naturally from 95 lbs up to 160 and then I was stuck. I cycled and went up to 190 in 8 weeks. After that, even without AAS, I never went below 170-175. That is, until I stopped training for a decade, at which point I dropped to 150-155 lbs and stayed there.

Once I resumed training, I put on about 17 lbs in a matter of 4 months, with nothing more than food. No AAS or PHs. My workout partner at the time asked me if I was taking steroids because week after week I was making gains.

At this point I was back to about 172 lbs, which was clearly more than my pre-AAS days. Strength was up, though nowhere near my prime. However, strength was definitely higher than my pre-AAS days.

Then I did 8 weeks of PP's Turinabol (halodrol) and added another 17 lbs and significant strength.

I believe there is not just a muscle memory, but an "anabolic memory". We can't fully regain the strength we may have had during steroid use until the stimulus of steroids are back in the system again, but we definitely can benefit from said memory, even without the anabolics.

Cobalt
11-30-2013, 05:30 PM
I don't think the gains are 'permanent' but as long as the muscle stays stimulated, it can remain.

And like burly said, if you stop lifting and lose the size, coming back to the gym will restart the growth.

burlyman30
11-30-2013, 11:00 PM
One thing I am not clear on is the mechanism that occurs. The article speaks of stem cells and hyperplasia, but as far as I know, hyperplasia has never been proven in humans. But I believe that this muscle memory or cell memory can occur from hypertrophy, and is not dependent on hyperplasia. If someone has new research on this matter, I would be interested in reading it.

weekend
11-30-2013, 11:21 PM
i personally think, after a lot of recent studying for anatomy classes, that it's largely a function of the fascial stretch.

i have a spot on my right bicep that is slightly deformed when very pumped, and i can tell it's because that part of the fascia is not as stretched as the rest. there isn't room for the muscle there, but if i flex to full contraction, the other part of the fascia can accommodate it.

booklifter
12-01-2013, 01:22 AM
I wish the answer were simply yes and as has been pointed out there is a qualitative 'memory' effect but a couple cautionary points when interpreting this particular study:
1) 14 days on the strong side of the pellet release curve is, time-wise, approximately a year on cycle for you.
2) Quantity-wise, it would be almost 10g of test for you (though the time distortion probably means you can pick (1) or (2) as your source of positive bias instead of both). So, ippy's set, but for the rest of us...
3) Female mice, so if you picked (1) earlier now you can put (2) back on the table. On a related note, if you enjoyed reading the full version of this study you'll also like this one: Visualising Androgen Receptor Activity in Male and Female Mice (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0071694)

I do think there is some long-term post-doping (note the sponsoring agency's agenda, btw - I'm sure the scientists were somewhat independent but it's still worth noting) benefit within the standard confines of "use it or lose it", however, I think the design of this study intentionally exaggerates the effect so as to enable exploring the mechanism of action. That's a noble cause in and of itself, it just means we shouldn't get too excited about the magnitude of this effect in humans who run 'normal' cycles and have concerns foreign to the mice (such as ever seeing their testicles again much less using them to procreate, or not going postal at work because of the 240/160 blood pressure)

Anyway, thanks for posting, this is a topic that does need much more study and discussion.

JM1000
12-01-2013, 10:39 AM
Imo very minimal, the body cannot carry the same amounts of muscle mass without the synthetic hormones you used.. But then again, there is no proof to this so it's just my 2 cents. The weight you keep post cycle could be some fat and a little muscle

JM1000
12-01-2013, 10:42 AM
Since pct, traps and shoulders went down for me. I was able to keep gains in arms and wheels. If I am not mistaken, there is alot of androgen receptors in shoulder area? Maybe someone can elaborate?

DJM
12-01-2013, 03:19 PM
i dont believe it, they dont stay

weekend
12-01-2013, 04:11 PM
For someone who hasn't reached their genetic limit (if there is such a thing) I feel like some gains stay, but someone like Phil Heath would shrink up a ton if he stopped using.

Jelisej
12-01-2013, 06:53 PM
Eventually body will go to "baseline" size meaning that muscle weight gained by AAS will be lost- tough must be noted that person had stretched his muscles/fascia so he it will be somewhat easier to regain size, plus he may be able to surpass his pre-AAS genetic limits ( a little bit) with good training regime and lifestyle even if he does not use AAS- again not by much

I've seen lot of really big guys stop training because various reasons- and overweight ones were back to being overweight, skinny were skinny again
Also, personal my experience confirms this


AAS have very powerfull effect on brain, and difference in brain chemicals last for 5X longer than cycle, and are very addictive
and IMO thats main reason why majority of guys are using gear- they dont want to stop and be what they were before, they dont want to lose "feel"

mrgodlike
12-12-2013, 01:32 PM
Question (2 part question) -

1) Assuming a person trains to their absolute max both on and off cycle and their diet is also on point both on and off cycle does that persons genetic limit grow after each cycle? (basically do cycles allow you to hit new baselines for everything....strength/mass wise....even if it's minimal)

2) Assuming it does grow (even if it's just a bit) after each cycle....does this genetic limit extend to both body fat and muscle mass (meaning is the max LBM achievable/maintainable by your body after a cycle also allow you to stay at that level at a new lowest bf %)?

hope the questions make sense.

booklifter
12-12-2013, 01:46 PM
1) Assuming a person trains to their absolute max both on and off cycle and their diet is also on point both on and off cycle does that persons genetic limit grow after each cycle? (basically do cycles allow you to hit new baselines for everything....strength/mass wise....even if it's minimal)

The science about the genetic limit is a mixed bag and the term can be a little misleading. For those who believe the genetic limit is just that - a limit - then no, nothing short of modifying your dna will actually change that. However, if you think of it as a genetic predisposition or a genetic point of diminishing returns, then this kind of consistent effort won't really change that point, but will make it easier to bypass and stay past it. If/when that effort ceases, the clock starts ticking down toward your predisposed limit, but the more and longer you've pushed past that the slower your return to normalcy will be, since there are other mechanical factors involved beyond genetic disposition (e.g. the growth of satellite cells you didn't have before, fascial accommodation, cardiovascular support).

New cycles won't change the genetic factor but can help you adapt to the difficulty of holding a little bit past it. My genetic 'limit' is a lean 185. It was shockingly easy to get there and a huge struggle for every pound after. No amount of oil jammed into my leg is going to turn me into dorian yates, but doing what you've described above is how I can hold 200-210.

weekend
12-12-2013, 03:56 PM
i would say that there is a genetic restriction to natty growth. and then an actual limit. the restricton for you may be 190 lb 8% bodyfat. and it would take a long time to get there, and only extremely persistent lifestyle would get you above this, towards the actual limit. the actual limit might be 225 lb 8%

i would say after cycling you could up your natty limit about 1/3 to half of the weight achieved on steroids, which to a point where you actually are limited. some huge amount of steroid may get you to 300 8%, but you will always shrink down to 225 8% after no matter how hard you try. then it could be easy to lose more muscle, but you could maybe hold it up in that area when you're on point.

so i think basically yes it increases genetic limit, but only to an extent.

Jelisej
12-12-2013, 08:35 PM
Question (2 part question) -

1) Assuming a person trains to their absolute max both on and off cycle and their diet is also on point both on and off cycle does that persons genetic limit grow after each cycle? (basically do cycles allow you to hit new baselines for everything....strength/mass wise....even if it's minimal)
2) Assuming it does grow (even if it's just a bit) after each cycle....does this genetic limit extend to both body fat and muscle mass (meaning is the max LBM achievable/maintainable by your body after a cycle also allow you to stay at that level at a new lowest bf %)?
hope the questions make sense.

1. In some cases after first cycle person can increase their limit, but minimal- all their subsequent cycles will be in same category as typical cycle which is rent-a-car, or better said rent-a-muscles
So answer to question 1 is NO

2. Simply speaking- body is tightly controlling muscle mass as more muscles it means more expenses, more energy consumption- and body is trying to be very cost effective, on other hand fat itself does not require anything it is just sort of storage, so body is not worried about it- so basically if your baseline is 150 lb of LBM (non-fat tissue) you will always return to 150 lb of LBM, body fat can be 5% or it can be much higher- depending on many factors: training, diet, body type, basal metabolic rate etc...

Sperwer
12-12-2013, 10:01 PM
J- what about if (1)you are able to maintain the higher energy intake necessary to support the muscle and/or (2) succeed in up-regulating your metabolism, which is implicit in (1).

Is it possible to permanently up-regulate one's metabolism. I feel like that's what I, in a completely uninformed, unplanned and random way, managed to do last Spring, when i leaned out and shed 25 pounds of fat. Since then i have put 25 pounds back on - but it's almost all LBM: still have a six pack, BF is only up ~ 5 pounds and i'm eating like a large draft animal while putting in less time but at MUCH greater intensity in the dungeon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Jelisej
12-13-2013, 07:25 AM
OK, what I said in my earlier posts is basically that eventually body will return to its baseline- now that does not neccessary mean very short time- with good diet, training strategy it can be kept for a long time,
other thing is that AAS are designed to be of medical use, and they do have a wide application and they do have benefits and AAS can sometimes treat some issue that was preventing person from progress, wheter it was muscle gain or muscle loss
Basically- my idea is that if persons basal metabolic rate increases, body has greater chance of repairing damage done to it or even resolve some issues which would than lead to improvement in performance, body composition improvements and wellbeing in general including libido improvements.
So yes, up-regulation ones metabolism is possible, and as a matter of fact- that is noble cause.

BBG
12-13-2013, 07:56 AM
Has this article been mentioned at all? Interesting read. Testosterone propionate can have permanent effect on muscles, says animal study (http://www.ergo-log.com/testosterone-propionate-can-have-permanent-effect-on-muscles-animal-study.html)

TL;DR: Researchers gave some mice test prop, others no test prop. Groups exercised, then stopped. They were back down to pre-cycle size. Then they started making the rats exercise again and the ones who had previously taken the test prop grew faster.

BBG
12-13-2013, 08:04 AM
It just seems to intuitively make sense that once the body reaches a point where it has built up so much muscle, it will be able to return to that point (or try to) because it remembers needing to be like that in the first place.

Sort of like someone who has learned a skill like juggling... even if they don't do it for a long time they can hop right back in to doing it with just a little practice.

nate3993
12-13-2013, 10:21 AM
Cycles give you permanent increased nuclei on the muscle allowing it to grow faster and bigger than had you never taken steroids. That is one way that they do have lasting effects. Androseries even touched upon this. I think I already stated this though earlier in the thread.

mrgodlike
12-13-2013, 10:53 AM
Thanks for the answers.

Now to further expand on this.... Do cycles have long lasting effects on the body OUTSIDE of Muscle and Fat?

Meaning if a compound(s) of a cycle affected 1 or more of the following:


Change in Lipids
Change in RBC count
Change in Thyroid levels
etc...


Would the body's baseline change post cycle...even if it was minimal (and again, assuming perfect conditioning and diet)?

Cdsnuts
12-13-2013, 12:52 PM
Thanks for the answers.

Now to further expand on this.... Do cycles have long lasting effects on the body OUTSIDE of Muscle and Fat?

Meaning if a compound(s) of a cycle affected 1 or more of the following:


Change in Lipids
Change in RBC count
Change in Thyroid levels
etc...


Would the body's baseline change post cycle...even if it was minimal (and again, assuming perfect conditioning and diet)?

Andro Drives neuro effects were supposedly semi-permanent.

Jelisej
12-13-2013, 05:04 PM
Thanks for the answers.
Now to further expand on this.... Do cycles have long lasting effects on the body OUTSIDE of Muscle and Fat?
Meaning if a compound(s) of a cycle affected 1 or more of the following:

Change in Lipids
Change in RBC count
Change in Thyroid levels
etc...

Would the body's baseline change post cycle...even if it was minimal (and again, assuming perfect conditioning and diet)?


CBC (incl RBC) count respond to overall situation in body- incl hormones so after cycle it should return to "normal", lipids should return to normal as well, eventually. Thyroid also should return to "normal" within few weeks. Liver values should also return to normal. Prostate could be managed during cycle, gyno should be prevented in first place but also can be managed afterwoods.

Things that dont return to normal (if they happen, and sometimes changes are rather small):
-Heart remodeling (heart enlargement, also loss of flexibility of left ventricle)
-Kidney damage, sometimes proteinuria happens or some calcification

There are other stuff that I cannot remeber at the moment...

As for androdrive- it had pregnenolone and DHEA as ingredient, which do have an effect on neurotransmitters (espec pregnenolone) but I would not call them semi-permanent, people who need to add preg. usaly need to use it continuously.
Tough effect stay for a while, for example they done some studies on nandrolone and effects are there 6X longer than cycle.