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pman42
12-02-2013, 11:45 PM
Well saw the endo today. She practically pushed me out of the office. almost before I was sitting down she said, "The only concern here is the fasting BG." I asked about the hormones and the gyno, and she said, "Well you're in range and we don't treat normal levels. gynecomastia is treated by surgery." I started to ask about SERMs, and I said, "SERM, an estrogen receptor modulator" (because I wasn't sure if pronouncing SERM as a word like I did would make sense to her) and she said, "I know what a SERM is. they have terrible side effects."
SHe ordered a re-test in 3 months. I pointed to 4 separate blood draws I had, 1 which was under the range, 1 which was exactly on the cutoff, and 2 which were very marginally "in range", and she just said we'd retest in 3 months. oh and she made it a standing order, as if that will fucking help anything.

as I left the office I was vacillating anger and sadness and blinking back tears. the whole thing took under 5 minutes but was a total and complete waste. i remember there was a bottle of topical estrogen on her desk. i wonder how many countless women she has put on estrogens with not the blink of an eye. enough that she needs a demo bottle on her desk. how many young girls put on synthetic progestins, with very real side effects and dangers? just so they can have unprotected sex with risk of STI transmission. yet to treat me is outside of medical necessity. what a fucking joke


rest of the day I had an appt at a top athletic and performance centre at a university for a program i would have killed to get into 6 months ago, and now they have 3 spots open. was meeting with the director and she even had the associate dean come in and my fucking brain was not there, i babbled and asked stupid questions. saw the gym, it was fucking amazing, then the track outside and the field and everything was great. the canadian women;s rugby team was training. i remembered when i was at that same very campus and was working out in the little hole in the wall shit gym they have for students not in the program and i knew i wanted to come to the athletic centre one day. back then my gym days were full of hope and promise of things to come. but today as i walked out i felt no connection to that gym, old or new. if you would have offered me a full scholarship to that program today i would have declined.

i feel like shit right now and just wanted to vent. thanks for listening

Sperwer
12-02-2013, 11:53 PM
Take your paperwork and go see another endo - a guy, not another fembot


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Jack O'Neill
12-03-2013, 12:21 AM
Take your paperwork and go see another endo - a guy, not another fembot


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Agree ^^^. See another doc

burlyman30
12-03-2013, 12:31 AM
Take your paperwork and go see another endo - a guy, not another fembot


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

I probably lucked out, as my female endo is pretty good. She listens to my concerns, is open to my input, and even takes my suggestions.

Regardless of male or female, though, look for another endo.

Oh, and you didn't hear this from me, but in the event you cannot get another doc, there are ways to make those test numbers drop...

weekend
12-03-2013, 01:36 AM
i'm sayin take a fat 2.5 month cycle of short esters. feel great the whole time. drop it with no PCT, test 2 weeks after finishing. youll b bottomed the fuckkkk out.

only worry is will there be estrogen rebound...

nate3993
12-03-2013, 02:39 AM
Or you could just pop like 2 dimethylphera that iron legion makes. Not even have to wait a long time for test to be low. 1 10mg dose of superdrol TANKED infamy's test.

weekend
12-03-2013, 03:16 AM
^also a good idea, but since shes not testing for 3 months...

booklifter
12-03-2013, 04:50 AM
Or you could just pop like 2 dimethylphera that iron legion makes. Not even have to wait a long time for test to be low. 1 10mg dose of superdrol TANKED infamy's test.

That was the LV stuff though right? Not that typical SD isn't suppressive just that I think his results were atypical in terms of time. Even if it had been mainlined, the feedback loop which causes suppression takes time and there's already (hopefully) a normal float of test that has to be used or eliminated. Also based on my own bloodwork with several different non-LV orals which certainly suppressed me but took their time doing it (compared to infamy's post).

You're right though that orals can be used for this purpose if taken long enough (whatever long enough means). Two things though - first, you'd better hope they don't test anything else which might be affected by liver damage (even a CBC could show elevated platelets, neutrophils, etc., CMP will show ALT, lipid panel will show hdl/ldl distortion) or come up with a good alternate explanation. Second, if the endo is competent, you'll need to time things very carefully so that you're there after LH starts rebounding but before T follows suit. Otherwise you'll be diagnosed with secondary, prescribed clomid if you're lucky, sent to imaging for an MRI if you're not (looking for a pituitary tumor)

For suppression purposes maybe brew up a small batch of trest ace and use that instead of the oral... Just an idea. I haven't tested it and do not recommend or condone it. Just an idea...

Jelisej
12-03-2013, 07:38 AM
Pman, could you please copy-paste bloodworks and all relevant info so I can look at it, as for your doctor- I will not comment to it, but to be honest I deal with a lot of people whom doctors did not help, thing what upsets me most is that sometimes they try to convince patient that "its all in their head" or sometimes they prescribe them "shrinks" pills which makes things worse.
Anyway, dont worry bro', you'll be fine. Only it will take time, but you'll get there.

Freepressright
12-03-2013, 08:14 AM
Well saw the endo today. She practically pushed me out of the office. almost before I was sitting down she said, "The only concern here is the fasting BG." I asked about the hormones and the gyno, and she said, "Well you're in range and we don't treat normal levels. gynecomastia is treated by surgery." I started to ask about SERMs, and I said, "SERM, an estrogen receptor modulator" (because I wasn't sure if pronouncing SERM as a word like I did would make sense to her) and she said, "I know what a SERM is. they have terrible side effects."
SHe ordered a re-test in 3 months. I pointed to 4 separate blood draws I had, 1 which was under the range, 1 which was exactly on the cutoff, and 2 which were very marginally "in range", and she just said we'd retest in 3 months. oh and she made it a standing order, as if that will fucking help anything.

as I left the office I was vacillating anger and sadness and blinking back tears. the whole thing took under 5 minutes but was a total and complete waste. i remember there was a bottle of topical estrogen on her desk. i wonder how many countless women she has put on estrogens with not the blink of an eye. enough that she needs a demo bottle on her desk. how many young girls put on synthetic progestins, with very real side effects and dangers? just so they can have unprotected sex with risk of STI transmission. yet to treat me is outside of medical necessity. what a fucking joke


rest of the day I had an appt at a top athletic and performance centre at a university for a program i would have killed to get into 6 months ago, and now they have 3 spots open. was meeting with the director and she even had the associate dean come in and my fucking brain was not there, i babbled and asked stupid questions. saw the gym, it was fucking amazing, then the track outside and the field and everything was great. the canadian women;s rugby team was training. i remembered when i was at that same very campus and was working out in the little hole in the wall shit gym they have for students not in the program and i knew i wanted to come to the athletic centre one day. back then my gym days were full of hope and promise of things to come. but today as i walked out i felt no connection to that gym, old or new. if you would have offered me a full scholarship to that program today i would have declined.

i feel like shit right now and just wanted to vent. thanks for listening

This shit right here is exactly why so many in the bodybuilding community self medicate. You have hordes of so-called experts that cannot find their ass with both hands when it comes to the field of andrology. A good many endos have absolutely no idea how to effectively treat low T, much less those with post AAS suppression.

When you look at some of the asinine TRT protocols being prescribed by garden-variety endos, you don't need to be a medical expert yourself to realize these people have a limited understanding of 'fixing' male hormones.

My best advice to you, find an endo who has a basic grasp on what you're experiencing. If what they're attempting doesn't work, try self help. SERMS and dopamine antagonists are available for research purposes. Why suffer because someone who should know better isn't doing anything to help you?

WesleyInman
12-03-2013, 10:20 AM
Weekend's got it. Very easy to consistently be "low". Prop is the key to this :)

If you need help with it, PM one of us. And doctors are pricks. I should know I worked with these assholes for many years. Granted their are good ones, but alot of them suck. I had my first HRT doctor test me for 6 months..i was low and he refused to treat me. He wanted to punish me for my past abuse of AAS. Kept having me come back and test every month. Promised me if I was low one more month, he'd give me HRT. Never happened.So having worked in the hospital, I know first and foremost that you have to "make it happen" a term I use alot. When you wanted to be "treated" it has to be in your hands. At times you have to exaggerate it, or you have to take it into your own hands and make it work.

In the case of HRT, alot of doctors are fuck-ups. They don't know the first thing about HRT. Most endo's treat 80+ year old patients...they believe a male should be at range (that usually they design in their own heads) since there is not a medical norm. For example one of my first doctors I was coming in 240-270 nanos which is dirt low. Since it was "in range" he wouldn't bump me up from the 50mgs E3 week script I had. Mind you I was 25 years old so I should have been an easy 5-600 if not more. But he wouldn't get me there. I warned him if he didn't treat me realistically I would just self medicate and go back on. He tried to call my bluff. So I switched doctors at month 6, but just to piss him off I went one more time. I made sure to run 100mgs of abombs and 2grams of prop all month. When he read me my blood work I was 4,400 nanos. LOL. He was so angry at me, and in shock. Told me he'd never seen a number that high. Told him to go fuck himself and walked out.

My next appt 2 weeks later I was 37 nanograms on a scale of 240-1000+. And at that point they had no choice but to "treat" me ;)

Make it happen Pman :)

booklifter
12-03-2013, 12:30 PM
My next appt 2 weeks later I was 37 nanograms on a scale of 240-1000+.

Nice. My record is 29 ng/dl (reference 348-1197), but I had to work pretty hard at it (and it wasn't much fun....or for that matter "hard")

Cobalt
12-03-2013, 05:00 PM
Never been low, but I had bloods pulled on cycle to check other things and my t was at 2000 which was the max for the test. It had a note in the report that they ran it 3 times to verify the results were correct, lol.

burlyman30
12-03-2013, 05:04 PM
Nice. My record is 29 ng/dl (reference 348-1197), but I had to work pretty hard at it (and it wasn't much fun....or for that matter "hard")

I have you beat.. came back once with a result of... 5. Lol

weekend
12-03-2013, 05:31 PM
^wow, how bad did you feel

maybe bioavailable test was closer to range.

burlyman30
12-03-2013, 05:42 PM
^wow, how bad did you feel

maybe bioavailable test was closer to range.

Felt awful. Couldn't kick a case of bronchitis that lasted over 4 months, regardless of repeated antibiotic treatments. Started TRT and bronchitis went away in a week.

weekend
12-03-2013, 05:47 PM
i have issues with fungus ever since using accutane.

no issues on cycle :/

jock itch and tinea versicolor

weekend
12-03-2013, 05:50 PM
i also have this disorder also from accutane on my hands. occasionally it has been like dishydrotic eczema but mostly like what youll see if you google peeling fingers.

always get flareups during stressful times, especially if using adderall.

doesnt happen on cycle.

booklifter
12-03-2013, 05:57 PM
I have you beat.. came back once with a result of... 5. Lol

Interesting... I wonder what assay was used. To my knowledge even high volume lc-ms/ms has trouble measuring past 20 ng/dl consistently. They could do a verification pass and give you the average but should have at the very least annotated the number with a warning about that level being within the test's margin of error (within the test's margin of having, well, any Test at all)

Just curious, what was the free test level on that same report? 0?

Edit: Also, by the way, awesome new theme for SS contest. Strength, Aesthetics, largest breakfast (or whatever that big meal challenge was), and lowest T!

booklifter
12-03-2013, 06:01 PM
jock itch and tinea versicolor

I fucking hate TV, interesting that your cycle has such a profound effect on it - for off-cycle, did you try the selenium sulfide self-mummification technique?

(wonder how far we can take this before it's officially a hijacked thread - sorry about that)

weekend
12-04-2013, 01:52 AM
I fucking hate TV, interesting that your cycle has such a profound effect on it - for off-cycle, did you try the selenium sulfide self-mummification technique?

(wonder how far we can take this before it's officially a hijacked thread - sorry about that)


sorry, TV is my minor issue. jock itch and the hand thing are the real bastards that go away on cycle.

i killed my only bout of tinea right before this cycle with selenium. worked great.

pman42
12-04-2013, 02:00 PM
thanks for all the support, guys. I definitely am going to do a cycle. unsure as to what compounds just yet, and also undecided whether i should do a really proper cycle with HCG and nice PCT or just run it dirty and try to tank my T levels. even if they were lower there's no guarantee an endo would write me a prescription, so i might be shooting myself in the foot. i have decided i will never go back to the endo i saw the other day. her brusqueness and the way she did not even engage me on my concerns i felt were unprofessional.

Jeli, i will post up the bloods later today. gotta go out and get some sun and do errands.

Jelisej
12-04-2013, 05:29 PM
Ok, what I would do in your case ( I dont expect you to do same tough):
1. I would forget about endo and his appointment in 3 months
2. In your circumstances cycle is ok, in last year you have done everything that was in your power to fix things, and it did not work- so pointless to worry about it
3. Do 13 weeks cycle, cycle should be heavily tipped towards DHT side, to sort out gyno
4. After cycle go 13 weeks on "clomid restart protocol", we'll see how it works and then determine what is best option
5. If needed you can go back to endo and say that you have been very depressed etc (that would also explain why you missed your last appointment)

Also good idea is to use cycle to do same tests, for example you can start a few weeks only on HCG and see what happens etc...

As for bloodworks- dont rush- maybe best idea is to do new thread with all bloodworks you've done, all other relevant data (how you felt at time of bloods), you body temperature, how certain supplements affected you.....

Before cycle, maybe would be good idea to measure body temperature- first time after waking up, and then 2-3 times a day at same time for a week or two, that may give as some idea about your adrenal/thyroid if temperature is lower than its low thyroid output (or type 2) if temp. is erratic than there are issues with adrenals as well...

weekend
12-04-2013, 05:37 PM
^ great post.

Enuke65
12-04-2013, 05:40 PM
How are you not a doctor Jel?

ryhigh
12-04-2013, 06:05 PM
How are you not a doctor Jel?

I thought the same thing a while back, I think we were still on PP forums. Very intelligent guy for sure

Jelisej
12-04-2013, 06:47 PM
With my lack of patience, bit of bad temper, history of disobedience and sarcasm and tendency to voice my opinion "straight in face" sometimes loudly - its probably better for me and humanity that I'm not doctor.

ryhigh
12-04-2013, 06:52 PM
With my lack of patience, bit of bad temper, history of disobedience and sarcasm and tendency to voice my opinion "straight in face" sometimes loudly - its probably better for me and humanity that I'm not doctor.

Lol, I still think that would be better than a lot of Dr.s in the states today

nate3993
12-04-2013, 07:32 PM
he'd look at women who claimed to be "big boned" and be like, "bitch...you fat!"

ryhigh
12-04-2013, 07:42 PM
he'd look at women who claimed to be "big boned" and be like, "bitch...you fat!"

I think that's what needs to be done today.. ok that was harsh lol. I just got extrememly annoyed with some people excuses after a couple years of being a trainer.

Im watching something on TV right now called the "Half ton killer". Its about a 950lb women who claimed she fell on her 2yo nephew and crushed his skull and killed him. They had to cut down the wall, and load her into a U-Haul truck cause she wouldn't fit in a ambulance. Also she ended up going thru trial in her bed because there was no way to get her to the courtroom unless she could live in it. They said the trial would cost about $1million in tax payers money, just ridiculous. Also if they gave her the death penalty they weren't sure the poison would kill her cause of her size... Ahhhh that shit pisses me off lol, I pay taxes for that kind of ishh

pman42
12-04-2013, 08:05 PM
Bloods:Hematology
WBC 5.3 4.0-10.0 giga/L
RBC 4.50 4.20-5.40 tera/L
Hemoglobin 140 133-165 g/L
Hematocrit 0.41 0.38-0.50
MCV 90 82-98 fl
MCH 31.1 27.5-33.5 pg
MCHC 344 305-365 g/L
RDW 12.6 11.5-14.5 %
Platelet Count 210 150-400 giga/L

Differential
Neutrophils 2.5 2.0-7.5 giga/L
Lymphocytes
2.2 1.0-4.0 giga/L
Monocytes 0.4 0.1-0.8 giga/L
Eosinophils 0.2 0.0-0.7 giga/L
Basophils 0.1 0.0-0.2 giga/L

General Chemistry
Glucose Fasting 5.6 3.3-5.5 mmol/L
Hemoglobin A1C 5.9 4.5-6.0 %
Creatinine 79 70-120 umol/L
Estimated GFR 101 >=60 mL/min
ALT 26 <50 U/L

Investigation of Carbohydrate Metabolism
Insulin Fasting 47 20-180 pmol/L

Thyroid Function
TSH 1.4 0.27-4.2 mU/L
T4 Free 14.3 10.5-20.0 pmol/L
T3 Free 4.7 3.5-6.5 pmol/L

Pituitary Function
Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) 1.7 <10.0 IU/L
Luteinizing Hormone (LH) 2.9 <10.0 IU/L
Prolactin 9.6 <15 ug/L

Reproductive and Gonadal
Estradiol 126 <150 pmol/L
Testosterone 10.2 8.4-28.8 nmol/L



Note that 126 pmol/L of E2 is 34 pg/mL and 10.2 nmol/L of test is 294 ng/DL

WesleyInman
12-04-2013, 08:40 PM
Well your numbers overall look pretty good as far as "health" is concerned. Of course the free is quite low. But also your Creatinine seems quite low to be honest. Your ALT is gtg, but creatinine is very low, that would interpret that you have not worked out in awhile?

Is that the case?? Not putting you down if you have not, but of course exercise and some foods high in zinc and high protein might help raise these levels naturally :)

Also have you tried DAA yet or anything like Ostarine just to see if it helps a bit??

Or is your ultimate goal just to get an HRT script?? What is your plan of attack at this point?

weekend
12-04-2013, 09:01 PM
Looks like clomid should work at least partially. A really low dose of an AI would also force the test higher. Love to see such detailed bloods. Can't believe you weren't offered TRT at 294!!! So low!

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe try torem instead of clomid.

- - - Updated - - -

I think if your estrogen is at that level, your test to estrogen ratio is off. I was sitting at 1100 with 16 e2 in American scale. So you have 1/4 the test and double the estrogen.

Jelisej
12-04-2013, 09:07 PM
How long time did pass before last meal and blood test? I'm asking because glucose is ok if its 8 hrs, but if its say more like 12 than its bit high- tough people with low androgens tend to have bit higher glucose- platelet are also saying same story
Insulin ref range seems off to me- but need to recheck this, but to me its seems that your is somewhere borderline
Creatinine also caught my attention- but creatinine leves are very much affected by level of hydration- so thats probably cause
Thyroid- fT3 is quite good, fT4 is kind-of-lowish when compared with TSH 1.4- that could be problematic in future, but probably not
LH- On one hand it looks as average, but considering your low TT I would expect it to be higher
E2 is on higher end for person with decent TT, for you is too high- E2 should be centered around 25 pg/ml (+/- 10) some folks feel better on lower optimal range some on higher, but for illustration purposes- you would need TT to be 800 ng/dl to feel good with that level
TT is way too low, it should be 650+ really

I'm surprised that with SERM and AI your tt did not go up big time and at least improved your gyno- maybe Weekend got it right and stuff was really bunk, next time go with pharma grade- for any case

pman42
12-04-2013, 11:07 PM
Wesley, when this test was done I had not worked out in probably a month. so that could be why creatinine is low. also no creatine supplementation for 1 month. At this point I am unsure what my plan of attack is, long-term. And yes, I have tried everything natural to raise it.

weekend and Jeli, previous bloodwork simply said <100 pmol/L of estrogen (which is 27 pg/mL) without giving exact value and based on the research I did if it was close to 100 that was a good number. Perhaps coming off of letrozole a month and a bit earlier allowed estrogen to rebound a bit. the raloxifene was pharma-grade and the letro was not research-grade, it was UGL and gave very identical problems others report at high doses of letrozole. i don't doubt its authenticity. As to your other questions, I tried to be fasting for 12 hours but it was probably more like 8-10. and without tea in the morning i didn't really drink more than 1/2 glass of water so hydration could have been a factor.

Just to be clear, when this test was done, I was about 1.5 months off raloxifene and a bit longer off the letrozole.

I did notice that the only tests she ordered repeated are fasting BG and total testosterone, so I can bomb my levels into the toilet if wanted and not worry about other numbers. That is, if I decide to see her again.

nate3993
12-05-2013, 01:45 AM
"that kind of ishh"....lol. that phrase just makes me laugh......but yeah, i'm with you on that. even if some of these people don't get to like their "perfect body" they could still lose a shit ton of weight and be extra healthy.



I think that's what needs to be done today.. ok that was harsh lol. I just got extrememly annoyed with some people excuses after a couple years of being a trainer.

Im watching something on TV right now called the "Half ton killer". Its about a 950lb women who claimed she fell on her 2yo nephew and crushed his skull and killed him. They had to cut down the wall, and load her into a U-Haul truck cause she wouldn't fit in a ambulance. Also she ended up going thru trial in her bed because there was no way to get her to the courtroom unless she could live in it. They said the trial would cost about $1million in tax payers money, just ridiculous. Also if they gave her the death penalty they weren't sure the poison would kill her cause of her size... Ahhhh that shit pisses me off lol, I pay taxes for that kind of ishh

Jelisej
12-05-2013, 05:41 PM
I dont know Pman... your blood glucose is on bit higher side (considering that you dont eat carbs if I rember correctly?) and are reasonable active person- but that could be one of those things- like being stressed out.... Insulin is ok but not brilliant, there is something fishy about your thyroid,
thing is one bloodworks dont mean anything, I know that previoulsy you done few and if you sit down and type them in it would shed some light...
I could guess that your SHBG is low, that you're leptin resistant and prediabetic etc...
Please, write down previous bloods, some symptoms (inability to gain or lose weight, sleep, increased or decreased hunger, heart rate, sleepy during day etc...)
And also would be helpful if you definitely decide what is going next... If you're going to endo thats one story, if you're going "renegade" than we need good gameplan, and stick to it, otherwise you'll be lost in wilderness...

pman42
12-08-2013, 03:01 PM
Allright Jeli, the goal is to get a script for TRT but as of right now it will likely take couple months for referral to another endo, so I gotta do an anti-gyno cycle. It will be Masteron, 400mg/week to start for 4 months and we'll see how that sorts it out. Would you recommend I run HCG concurrently to avoid shutdown?? I would like to preserve HPTA as at this point TRT is not a guarantee. HCG 250 IU 2x a week before each dose of mast enanthate? PCT would be clomid or torem with a low-dose AI or AndroHard to avoid estrogen rebound.

I don't really follow a low-carb diet. I've tried to a few times but it doesn't last. most times I eat a lot of carbs but I'm going to tighten it up to get a handle on BG. Symptoms: low energy in morning, worse toward late afternoon (feel like a nap) followed by alertness and wakefulness starting around 9PM usually. Strongly crave and enjoy coffee but it gets me incredibly wired (didn't used to do this). Mood swings sometimes (not severe but noticeable). Libido usually very good. no problems with sex. Inability to put on weight despite good diet and intense exercise. nor do I get lean easily (I mean it is very hard). chest area has always been somewhat 'flabby'. wake usually once per night, maybe around 2-4. strong desire for food at this time (unsure if this is conditioning as I used to take trazodone which would make me incredibly hungry and got me in the habit of nighttime eating).

Below is some more bloodwork. I have another sheet that wasn't entered into the online health thingie, and I will post that up later.

Bloods April 10, 2013
Glucose Fasting A 6.0 3.3-5.5 mmol/L
Hemoglobin A1C 5.8 4.5-6.0 %

Gamma GT 16 10-58 U/L
ALT 39 <50 U/L
AST A 43 <30 U/L
Pituitary Function Prolactin 5.7 <15 ug/L
Reproductive and Gonadal
Estradiol <100 <150 pmol/L
Testosterone 11.0 8.4-28.8 nmol/L

Bloods Feb. 26 2013
WBC 6.4 4.0-10.0 giga/L
RBC 4.68 4.20-5.40 tera/L
Hemoglobin 145 133-165 g/L
Hematocrit 0.42 0.38-0.50
MCV 89 82-98 fl
MCH 31.0 27.5-33.5 pg
MCHC 347 305-365 g/L
RDW 12.9 11.5-14.5 %
Platelet Count 246 150-400 giga/L
Differential
Neutrophils 3.1 2.0-7.5 giga/L
Lymphocytes 2.4 1.0-4.0 giga/L
Monocytes 0.6 0.1-0.8 giga/L
Eosinophils 0.3 0.0-0.7 giga/L
Basophils 0.1 0.0-0.2 giga/L
Biochemical Investigation of Anemias
Vitamin B12 589 150-650 pmol/L
Ferritin 128 15-300 ug/L

General Chemistry
Glucose Fasting A 5.6 3.3-5.5 mmol/L
Hemoglobin A1C 5.9 4.5-6.0 %
Sodium 140 134-145 mmol/L
Potassium 4.5 3.5-5.0 mmol/L
Creatinine 77 70-120 umol/L
Estimated GFR 104 >=60 mL/min
Gamma GT 19 10-58 U/L
ALT 30 <50 U/L
AST A 31 <30 U/L
Lipids
Cholesterol A 5.96 2.00-4.59 mmol/L
LDL Cholesterol A 3.97 1.50-2.99 mmol/L
HDL Cholesterol 1.64 >0.90 mmol/L
Chol/HDL (Risk Ratio) 3.63 <4.9
Triglycerides 0.77 0.45-2.29 mmol/L
Thyroid Function
TSH 2.1 0.27-4.2 mU/L

Pituitary Function
Prolactin 7.1 <15 ug/L
Reproductive and Gonadal
Estradiol <100 <150 pmol/L
Testosterone 13.1 8.4-28.8 nmol/L

Bone Markers
25-Hydroxyvitamin D 122 75-150 nmol/L

WesleyInman
12-08-2013, 04:20 PM
Im not Jel, I will certainly allow and let him answer but first let me say this to you, with all due respect you are complicating the HRT thing.

Do a google search in your area, or in your insurance network of endo's in your area. Try and find one that is relative to sports medicine. You can certainly call any Sports Medicine related doctors, or Physical therapists offices in the area and simply ask them if they have any Endo's they refer patients to, or that they know of who deal with sports medicine. This might take some footwork, but it's free and will only take your time.

Next, you can walk into many doctors offices minus a referral. It is often easier to get in if your doctor refers you, but you can simply call office to office once you tie down a doctor that might be sports med related and simply call and see if they are accepting new patients. You simply can tell them you do not have a referral if they ask but you believe believe that your current issue is endocrinology related. Very very often doctors could care less for a referral and they will schedule you for a review if you have insurance or are able to pay up front. Money talks. Trust me I worked in this field for years and got patients appointments dozens of times with specialists with no "primary physician referral". You can even say you no longer have a primary doctor. Or you can even go to your local walk in clinic and tell them your symptoms, be seen and ask for a referral.

Next the trazadone is an issue bit you said you are no longer taking it? I know this bc I administered it for 10 years. Very likely this can cause fatigue. For a fact it is why you are waking up in the middle of the night starving or if you are starving an hour after taking it. Now mind you, and don't take this as disrespectful but that med is most often used as an anti-psychotic or anti-depressant. Once in very rare while I saw it used for high blood pressure associated issues.

The condition you are expressing says to me more of a mood or brain chemical disorder. The stimulation effect that you are getting from coffee, the fatigue, mood swings, weight loss or inability to maintain weight can be for many reasons besides Testosterone deficiency. It might be "related" but the symptoms you also managed can be various. Are you taking any other meds, psych meds, or anti-depressants, or anything along those lines that you are willing or able to discuss??

Then the HRT issue, talk with someone here on how to run the prop or other means to get the accurate readings you need. Because again remember, you very well might be in "need" of HRT/TRT..but again endo's will stick to this "mythical chart". If your levels are 240.5 for 6 months, they will say you are in range, and if you are 239.5 then they will say you "need treatment" and treat you. It's very relative to Gov't regulations as well, which makes even more sense why it seems dumb as hell because it is. When you throw out all common sense and general intelligence for that of "policy" you know that the US govt. is involved. And likely the licensing in that state may require "off the chart" numbers to allow them the ability to prescribe.

No point in running a cycle and waiting around, make it happen now.

weekend
12-08-2013, 04:35 PM
i say do the cycle and aggressively look for another endo during the end of it.

and then get on TRT straight away. you say TRT is not a guarantee... but it is if you want it to be, i have perfect numbers and if i wanted a script i could get it easily, and you are probably needing it so just get it. it's not that hard! don't fuck around with the same endo over and over.

you will find relief in the sweet benefits of DHT in the meantime.

Jelisej
12-08-2013, 07:35 PM
OK, Pman- these few more bloods definitely make difference- we can now confirm what I tought earlier:
1. You have some degree of insulin resistance, that definitely plays role in whole situation
2. Leptin resistance is one step before insulin resistance, and that is also bad thing by itself (have a read on this it will be important)
3. Thyroid is definitely out of order- in previous blood I had hunch something is off- somehow TSH was soo high compared to level of thyroid/and other hormones
in these TSH is over 2 mlU/l (and other hormones are not soo high) so you are hypothyroid to certain extent- if you go on TRT you may have problems here
4. You crycadian rhytm is off, and in general adrenals must be affected, and by some symptoms you described confirm this, but anytime thyroid is affected adrenals will take beating as well
5. Having low thyroid output usualy results in lower SHBG levels- and if you have glucose spikes, and therefore insulin spikes that would lower SHBG further- so SHBG must be low(ish) and obviously in that situation tot. test will be low as well- problem is that you'll aromatise heavily which usually results in pituary cutting off testosterone production as it has more than enough estrogen- basically body itself does not care about test. levels neither it has ability to sense its levels (AFAIK) in other word- testosterone is byproduct of making estrogen- and basically all PCT philosophy is based on that (we use SERMS which blocks estrogen receptors in brain to trick brain so it thinks there is no estrogen around so it will try to make it by raising LH)
It seems that your E2 is never too far off so your libido is decent- but on other hand you're still in negative androgen-estrogen balance (hence gyno)- tough you probably have low progesterone levels as well (and some other adrenal hormones)
Verdict:
Big problem here is "low metabolic rate" low metabolic rate depends on following hormones:
cortisol, leptin, T3, insulin - I beleive that even muscle mass depends on levels and availability, and they create metabolic rate as well which then allow better usage of hormones incl testosterone
this is something you'll have to take care off- as matter of fact by tunning these it would be not be unusual to see your testosterone level climb- tough admittedly it is hard work, but you'll have to work on it a bit even if you go on TRT otherwise your progesterone levels will go too high- it will not convert too well to cortisol which will also slow down pregnenolone production and overall- on top of all symptoms you'll get anxiety
also your prolactin levels will shoot up big time
thyroid will probably slow down and on top of that with insufficient levels of cortisol they wont be use up, and from testosterone itself wont be as much as useful

As for anti-gyno cycle, andractim or proviron are best IMO for treatment of gyno
2. HCG half life is horter than you think so use HCG 3X a week, and no hormones in PCT of any kind if you wont to protect HPTA

pman42
12-10-2013, 10:24 PM
Wesley, I'm in Canada, so the system is structured a bit differently. It's free for me to see an endo but I have to get the referral. i would honestly pay for one of those low testosterone clinics but they don't have those here. getting the referral is not the issue, it's the waiting to see the endo and their eventual possible negative response that worries me.

as far as the trazodone, i was taking it for sleep. i went through a period of insomnia and then i just got lazy and kept taking the trazodone. it's been about 2 years since i took it. I was on escitalopram as well, in retrospect my depression was due to nutrient deficiency, but it's been a good 3 years off of that as well.

pman42
01-06-2014, 01:43 AM
Well thought I would give an update.

Jumped on AndroHard while I thought my options over and attempted to get back into the swing of lifting again. I remember now how fucking great this stuff is. Even at a low dose (I'm taking 5 caps a day, sometimes 4) the irritation came down really quick. Whereas before the gyno was bothersome to the point where it was on my mind a lot, now days can go by and I don't even think about it. More DHT is definitely in order.

I am thinking over the relative merits of andactrim vs. proviron vs. masteron. andactrim is real DHT, but seems to have mixed feedback. also canada has asshole customs, and i'm not sure about the repercussions if it gets opened. proviron appears to be a good option but is prohibitively expensive. masteron has the least appealing method of administration but also appears to offer the best shot. i could easily blow 2 or 3 times more on proviron, and even though the andactrim is not super pricey and assuming it came through customs , it might not work. i am leaning towards masteron, 400mg/ week with a PCT of clomid and aromasin. then i retest and hopefully try to get on some TRT.

only have about 10 days worth more of the AndroHard so I will have to make a decision prety quick here.

weekend
01-06-2014, 07:20 AM
Masteron but use more than 400 a week... 600+ Will be fun :)

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And pct with torem, it kills gyno unlike clomid

You can use low dose clomid alongside

Keep the aromasin in there though

pman42
01-12-2014, 01:50 AM
the torem i am unsure of because pharma grade is impossible to find. the current board sponsor is supposed to be good but it only comes in 20mg, making a month of PCT a very expensive proposition.

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supposed to be in mexico but i looked in pharmacies there, could not find dick