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Jelisej
11-13-2012, 04:57 PM
Nice study, but apart of numbers, it does not say nothing what happened after? Did they change their hairstyle, buy new car and went all the way to Las Vegas? What about libido and tt levels after?

josh
11-13-2012, 05:26 PM
Nice study, but apart of numbers, it does not say nothing what happened after? Did they change their hairstyle, buy new car and went all the way to Las Vegas? What about libido and tt levels after?


http://brazjurol.com.br/july_august_2012/img/DaRos_fig_1.jpg

What more do you want?


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

h2s
11-13-2012, 05:50 PM
Guys i moved these posts. Please keep discussion in the parent advanced science forum so we can keep the database clean.

For others, this is a discussion on the first post on this thread: Clomiphene Citrate [Clomid] (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/anabolics-study-database/187-clomiphene-citrate-%5Bclomid%5D.html)

josh
11-13-2012, 06:19 PM
Guys i moved these posts. Please keep discussion in the parent advanced science forum so we can keep the database clean.

For others, this is a discussion on the first post on this thread: Clomiphene Citrate [Clomid] (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/anabolics-study-database/187-clomiphene-citrate-%5Bclomid%5D.html)

John what is it you are tryna do with these database threads? Just fill them full of studies?

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burlyman30
11-13-2012, 06:25 PM
John what is it you are tryna do with these database threads? Just fill them full of studies?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Hence the term "database".

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Jelisej
11-13-2012, 06:27 PM
John what is it you are tryna do with these database threads? Just fill them full of studies?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Still dont quite get study, it says quality of life has improved, but it does not say how or how much? Probably they changed lifestyle during treatment as well which may contributed, also did their tt levels remain stable after and how long?

I did mention clomid restart therapy while back ago, but efficacy was not good with older than 40 years old, but this guys are over 60...

h2s
11-13-2012, 06:30 PM
Yes, i would like it to be reference point. So say i wanted to study more on clomid, i could goto the clomid thread and instantly see many relevant studies with abstracts. The highlighting lets me see what the study achieves, letting me know which i want to investigate further for my research goal.


At the time, it seems like a hopeful wish, but i think if properly developed, it could become an amazing resource.

josh
11-13-2012, 06:54 PM
Yes, i would like it to be reference point. So say i wanted to study more on clomid, i could goto the clomid thread and instantly see many relevant studies with abstracts. The highlighting lets me see what the study achieves, letting me know which i want to investigate further for my research goal.


At the time, it seems like a hopeful wish, but i think if properly developed, it could become an amazing resource.

I'll PM you. I think I know of some ways to make it work

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Jelisej
11-13-2012, 07:26 PM
Yes, i would like it to be reference point. So say i wanted to study more on clomid, i could goto the clomid thread and instantly see many relevant studies with abstracts. The highlighting lets me see what the study achieves, letting me know which i want to investigate further for my research goal.


At the time, it seems like a hopeful wish, but i think if properly developed, it could become an amazing resource.

Ok. You're right. I was just trying to start some meaningful debate.

h2s
11-13-2012, 07:45 PM
Ok. You're right. I was just trying to start some meaningful debate.

Oh by all means I encourage it. I just think it would be best if the discussion is separated (and maybe linked).

Jelisej
11-16-2012, 05:46 PM
I dont like this advanced enhancement science section- its full of studies, but these studies are misguiding and I'm worried that youngsters may get idea how "cycles" are very safe and you can always sort out mess with help of clomid.
Clomid is portrayed better than it is in those studies, as there are failed restarts.
Study with proviron/mesterlone does not say dosage- it may be very low dosage, and we dont know anything about hormonal profile of treated patients. From my knowledge/experience proviron is supressive.

h2s
11-16-2012, 06:01 PM
I dont like this advanced enhancement science section- its full of studies, but these studies are misguiding and I'm worried that youngsters may get idea how "cycles" are very safe and you can always sort out mess with help of clomid.
Clomid is portrayed better than it is in those studies, as there are failed restarts.
Study with proviron/mesterlone does not say dosage- it may be very low dosage, and we dont know anything about hormonal profile of treated patients. From my knowledge/experience proviron is supressive.

I am not sure what is misguiding about the studies. The database is meant to act as a catalog of studies pertaining to a topic. That is why they display abstracts. One can quickly see what studies have been done, what their key message was, and if they are interested in going into the subject in more detail, it links to the pubmed entry which generally can lead someone to a full text.

Your statement "Clomid is portrayed better than it is in those studies, as there are failed restarts," I don't understand. There are studies on anti-depressants, yet people who commit suicide on them. There is studies on blood pressure medications, yet there are people who have heart attacks on them. That doesn't mean the studies should be discounted.

The "Youngsters" are probably not digging through a study database, they are on message boards that respond to "im new" with take "30mg of superdrol bro." That is not what Primordial's community was, nor what this one should be through transition.

Jelisej
11-16-2012, 06:25 PM
I am not sure what is misguiding about the studies. The database is meant to act as a catalog of studies pertaining to a topic. That is why they display abstracts. One can quickly see what studies have been done, what their key message was, and if they are interested in going into the subject in more detail, it links to the pubmed entry which generally can lead someone to a full text.

Your statement "Clomid is portrayed better than it is in those studies, as there are failed restarts," I don't understand. There are studies on anti-depressants, yet people who commit suicide on them. There is studies on blood pressure medications, yet there are people who have heart attacks on them. That doesn't mean the studies should be discounted.

The "Youngsters" are probably not digging through a study database, they are on message boards that respond to "im new" with take "30mg of superdrol bro." That is not what Primordial's community was, nor what this one should be through transition.

What I'm saying is that in these studies there is no mention of side-effects and failures, which do happen. I just want that to be understood by "30 mgs superdrol bro's" and other youngsters before they jump on steroid/ph's bandwagon.

BBG
11-16-2012, 06:29 PM
The study was done on older men with no apparent past use of anabolics.

Also, I have a feeling that giving DHT to men with failing testicular function can actually boost testosterone levels, or at least maintain the same testosterone levels (in the low range) but increase sense of well being, libido, etc.

- - - Updated - - -


What I'm saying is that in these studies there is no mention of side-effects of failures, which do happen. I just want that to be understood by "30 mgs superdrol bro's" and other youngsters before they jump on steroid/ph's bandwagon.

I don't understand what "side-effects of failures" means. Do you mean like, if someone doesn't recover testicular function after a cycle?

Jelisej
11-16-2012, 06:54 PM
The study was done on older men with no apparent past use of anabolics.

Also, I have a feeling that giving DHT to men with failing testicular function can actually boost testosterone levels, or at least maintain the same testosterone levels (in the low range) but increase sense of well being, libido, etc.

- - - Updated - - -



I don't understand what "side-effects of failures" means. Do you mean like, if someone doesn't recover testicular function after a cycle?

Mistyped- I meant "on failures" (to restart or recover). As for DHT it usualy does increase feeling of wellbeing, and for people with low tt its not always too supressive- but for majority is. And for many guys testosterone levels took dive after supplementing DHT.
If LH levels are not supressed it does not meant that testosterone levels were not reduced. Few guys after couple of months on Testosterone injections still had serum LH present in their blood tests.
"end of the line" hormones are always very supressive.

burlyman30
11-17-2012, 12:33 AM
Mistyped- I meant "on failures" (to restart or recover). As for DHT it usualy does increase feeling of wellbeing, and for people with low tt its not always too supressive- but for majority is. And for many guys testosterone levels took dive after supplementing DHT.


Bolded is in conflict with the studies on Proviron I posted in the Proviron and Androgens section.

Jelisej
11-17-2012, 07:01 AM
Bolded is in conflict with the studies on Proviron I posted in the Proviron and Androgens section.

Yes, that is because that study is incomplete. It includes only specific group of people, dosages were probably very low.
There is another proviron study in which shows there was supression- but there they used higher dosages, that study was probably incomplete as well. Anyway- from anecdotal evidences first SHBG and then testosterone levels were reduced after supplementing with DHT.

h2s
11-17-2012, 12:22 PM
Yes, that is because that study is incomplete. It includes only specific group of people, dosages were probably very low.
There is another proviron study in which shows there was supression- but there they used higher dosages, that study was probably incomplete as well. Anyway- from anecdotal evidences first SHBG and then testosterone levels were reduced after supplementing with DHT.

But see, that is the point of this system. You could then introduce the study you reference in this post to the database, depicting the opposite scenario and use that in your discussion in the advanced enhance subforum.

Grape Ape
11-17-2012, 12:59 PM
If we don't want young kids, idiots(not that I'm not), and the inexperienced then why don't we make this site invite only? Each member gets 1 invite per a month.

Okay, carry on boys. Clomid and shit dawg.

Jelisej
11-17-2012, 01:17 PM
If we don't want young kids, idiots(not that I'm not), and the inexperienced then why don't we make this site invite only? Each member gets 1 invite per a month.

Okay, carry on boys. Clomid and shit dawg.
You took that out of context.
We all do want young kids on forum, and all other types of people- what I dont want is that they get wrong idea how some compounds are safe or how it is easy to get HPTA going when shit hits the fan, as that will encourage them to start ph's/roids before they should. That could mess up their endocrine system- and no one wants that. That's all.

burlyman30
11-17-2012, 01:19 PM
Yes, that is because that study is incomplete. It includes only specific group of people, dosages were probably very low.
There is another proviron study in which shows there was supression- but there they used higher dosages, that study was probably incomplete as well. Anyway- from anecdotal evidences first SHBG and then testosterone levels were reduced after supplementing with DHT.

150mg was used in both of the studies I posted. I'd say that is substantial. Both of those studies supported the finding of the other. I'd be interested to read the study you are referencing.

Grape Ape
11-17-2012, 01:38 PM
You took that out of context.
We all do want young kids on forum, and all other types of people- what I dont want is that they get wrong idea how some compounds are safe or how it is easy to get HPTA going when shit hits the fan, as that will encourage them to start ph's/roids before they should. That could mess up their endocrine system- and no one wants that. That's all.
Maybe make the "Am I ready for ph/aas" sticky a must read before you can post. Many forums have this, but usually with their rules.

Jelisej
11-17-2012, 01:50 PM
150mg was used in both of the studies I posted. I'd say that is substantial. Both of those studies supported the finding of the other. I'd be interested to read the study you are referencing.

This is from Michael Scally's article:
The quoted abstract from the study by Varma and Patel really does not give one any information. [Varma TR, Patel RH. The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone , luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988;26:121-8.] The study is poor from the abstract alone. Please note that the statement, "Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated," refers unidentified group. The groups in the study include, "One hundred ten patients . . . had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients . . . had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone." Nowhere is there a group with elevated levels. Nonetheless, the cited effect is a "depressing effect" not stated as significant. Knowing the fluctuation in gonadotropin levels on testing even at a P<0.05 would not be meaningful. But it does go to the point that proviron has no adverse effect on the HPTA.

This is from Bayer product information: Early studies suggested oral
mesterolone did not usually suppress gonadotrophins or endogenous
testosterone production. A later single dose study suggests there may be a
central suppression effect at doses of 75-100 mg daily.
http://www.bayerresources.com.au/resources/uploads/PI/file9420.pdf


Cannot find other "sources" but there were studies showing testosterone supression during proviron usage, altough I do accept that proviron is not harsh on HPTA and it recovers in "no time".
Also there are some anecdotal reports on proviron reducing testosterone, but I have no concrete evidence, I must say.
This is best I can do at the moment:
Testosterone levels and gonadotrophins in ... [Arch Dermatol Res. 1977] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/883846)
The hormone response to a synthetic an... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1977] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/872444)
As from positive side proviron does reduce SHBG which leaves more free testosterone- and that is where benefits are coming from (including increased fertility in some people).

BBG
11-17-2012, 06:09 PM
My view is that estrogen is 100x more likely to suppress hormone levels than testosterone. DHT, I don't know how suppressive it is, but if it lowers estrogen (or blocks estrogen) could potentially be used without much harm done to the HPTA.

nate3993
11-17-2012, 06:23 PM
i know PA said up to 100mg daily of proviron is non supressive. but j has a study that says 75 is. i read someone saying though 50mg a day, and they got some good effects, strength, increased libido, hardness, and dryed them out. so if 50mg a day can warrant decent effect, then it seems that's a completely non supressive route. been thinking about finding some legit proviron and cruising on 50mg a day for a while and then getting bloods.

burlyman30
11-17-2012, 06:44 PM
I need to read up on the studies that J presented, but it seems apparent that since some studies show no suppression and others show some slight suppression, then dosage tolerance must be somewhat an individual response.

h2s
11-17-2012, 07:18 PM
My view is that estrogen is 100x more likely to suppress hormone levels than testosterone. DHT, I don't know how suppressive it is, but if it lowers estrogen (or blocks estrogen) could potentially be used without much harm done to the HPTA.

Very much agreed. Estrogen, imo, is the largest suppressant of hpta function. I have yet to see differently.

The key here is that you said "not much" suppression. If one sees a mild benefit from a compound, and only sees a slight impact on hpta, i would consider that worth it.

Jelisej
11-17-2012, 07:24 PM
I need to read up on the studies that J presented, but it seems apparent that since some studies show no suppression and others show some slight suppression, then dosage tolerance must be somewhat an individual response.

I agree with this statement. There are always too many variables so different people will be affected differently, and problem with studies is that we dont know much about people, and their complete hormonal panel.
Proviron itself can be a Godsend or more-less waste, it can supress estrogen in some people and in some not.
In my case- it did not supress estrogen much (based on symptoms), but it did serve purpose and I did get rid of gyno (altough gyno was not there for too long). Anabolic side- nothing, strength gain- nothing. For leaning bit I was around 15% bf at the time which is too much to see real difference, but there was slight improvement. As for testosterone supression- I did not do bloodworks, and I can never really tell where my test. levels are.
So, maybe is fair to say that no one of us guys was really right or wrong- it depends from person to person and from lot of circumstances.
Also my opinion is that body builders are real fathers of endocrinology, all top endos are present at various bb forums for a reason. They learn, they have facilites to do all tests and then use knowledge gained from bodybuilders to treat people, and their charges are expensive. Unfortunately, they are in front of "conventional" medicine and ordinary endos (who are still in middle ages).

Jelisej
11-17-2012, 07:32 PM
My view is that estrogen is 100x more likely to suppress hormone levels than testosterone. DHT, I don't know how suppressive it is, but if it lowers estrogen (or blocks estrogen) could potentially be used without much harm done to the HPTA.

Few times I've heard a quote that estrogen is 20X more supressive than testosterone, and that DHT is 7X more supressive than testosterone, but I have no idea if that is correct, and where did they get that quote from.
From "anecdotal" evidence it seems that "youngsters" tend to have high testosterone, low DHT and estrogen and older folks usually have high estrogen, medium DHT and low testosterone.
There was study on Australian farmers who were healthy and had good lifestyle- and they had good "hormonal status" their TT levels were above 700 ng/dl (if I remeber correctly).

BBG
11-17-2012, 07:42 PM
Few times I've heard a quote that estrogen is 20X more supressive than testosterone, and that DHT is 7X more supressive than testosterone, but I have no idea if that is correct, and where did they get that quote from.
From "anecdotal" evidence it seems that "youngsters" tend to have high testosterone, low DHT and estrogen and older folks usually have high estrogen, medium DHT and low testosterone.
There was study on Australian farmers who were healthy and had good lifestyle- and they had good "hormonal status" their TT levels were above 700 ng/dl (if I remeber correctly).

I've heard it as 200x more suppressive (for estrogen), but I really don't have any idea. It's all just a guessing game until someone publishes a study (for finds one published).

I agree with your apparent assertion that a good lifestyle/diet can maintain higher test levels. We can't all be farmers in aussieland. Look at burly, the dude probably has crazy stress levels, has used roids in the past when he was younger, probably sleeps way less than most of us (i mean, he almost certainly does) and odds are his nutrition reflects his lifestyle, in that he probably eats not so great foods due to limited time. It's no wonder his T levels are low, right? Not to single you out Burly, it's just that that's how most of society is. We're running around trying to beat everyone else, while those farmers chill out and eat their organic foods that they grow themselves.

Jelisej
11-17-2012, 07:56 PM
My fate, and probably for most of us here will be same as Burly's I'm afraid.
There is this Jack Kruse who has some strange and some good ideas as well- one of his better ideas (IMO) ideas is to live life as closest to life of our ancestors, he has point there but for most of us thats impossible.
Anyway- some researchers have said that till modern times men had double TT levels compared to men today.
Their lifestyle was completely different- in summer they were exposed to sun (natural vitamin D), in winter they ate lot of stored nutty products. Lot of good stuff in diet. Lot of rest. Interestingly- in Europe because of "industralisation" poor diet, hard labour and not enough rest- average height has been reduced by inch or so in last 200 years. That speaks for itself.

h2s
11-17-2012, 11:04 PM
I've heard it as 200x more suppressive (for estrogen), but I really don't have any idea. It's all just a guessing game until someone publishes a study (for finds one published).

I agree with your apparent assertion that a good lifestyle/diet can maintain higher test levels. We can't all be farmers in aussieland. Look at burly, the dude probably has crazy stress levels, has used roids in the past when he was younger, probably sleeps way less than most of us (i mean, he almost certainly does) and odds are his nutrition reflects his lifestyle, in that he probably eats not so great foods due to limited time. It's no wonder his T levels are low, right? Not to single you out Burly, it's just that that's how most of society is. We're running around trying to beat everyone else, while those farmers chill out and eat their organic foods that they grow themselves.

I have no idea on the 200x or 20x or 100x etc, but by it's nature as part of the negative feedback loop, it would be a very strong part in the process of suppression.


My fate, and probably for most of us here will be same as Burly's I'm afraid.
There is this Jack Kruse who has some strange and some good ideas as well- one of his better ideas (IMO) ideas is to live life as closest to life of our ancestors, he has point there but for most of us thats impossible.
Anyway- some researchers have said that till modern times men had double TT levels compared to men today.
Their lifestyle was completely different- in summer they were exposed to sun (natural vitamin D), in winter they ate lot of stored nutty products. Lot of good stuff in diet. Lot of rest. Interestingly- in Europe because of "industralisation" poor diet, hard labour and not enough rest- average height has been reduced by inch or so in last 200 years. That speaks for itself.

Yeah, to be honest though, I have always planned that at a certain age I will seek TRT. I tend not to bring this up, as any other time I have it has lead to arguments between those that oppose TRT and I. There is a natural decline to ideal hormone composition as one ages. The impact this has on one's life can be anywhere from mild to very significant, but none the less will always impact it in some regard. I very much take a life extensionist view towards TRT. This is of course at an appropriate age and I am not advocated every 20 and 30 year old use this thought as a means to justify their abuse.

burlyman30
11-18-2012, 01:21 AM
Look at burly, the dude probably has crazy stress levels, has used roids in the past when he was younger, probably sleeps way less than most of us (i mean, he almost certainly does) and odds are his nutrition reflects his lifestyle, in that he probably eats not so great foods due to limited time. It's no wonder his T levels are low, right? Not to single you out Burly, it's just that that's how most of society is. We're running around trying to beat everyone else, while those farmers chill out and eat their organic foods that they grow themselves.

You are right on many counts regarding my lifestyle. I operate in a chronic state of stress because of business/investment situations and the economic climate has been a major factor. However, I likely handle it better than most would. If you guys only knew what I went through on any given month... lol.

My diet, like most of us, could be better. However, I'd have to say that I am probably miles ahead of the average American. I eat no sweets. Never have. No cookies, candy, ice cream, etc. I rarely eat snack foods like french fries, chips, etc. I have cut down my starchy carbs to almost nil, but will imbibe on occasion. I eat a lot of hamburger and eggs. My downfall would be fast food burgers, sometimes 2 or 3 in a day when I am at my busiest in the summer. As you surmised, my busy lifestyle dictates eating on the run.

I sleep 4-6 hours routinely, but during the slower work season I am more likely to be in the 5-7 hour range.

So yes, I have my part to play. Exogenous hormones may or may not have had a major part to play in all of this. Hard to say. I was never a heavy user, but it's hard to say who's body can take how much.

Haritec
11-19-2012, 12:15 PM
I have a few full papers on Clomid and treating low testosterone. Tried to add them as attachments but the form doesnt let me attach files > 20K ?? Anyways, in regards to symptoms and the effects Clomid has on them, this was the discussion in:

Outcomes of clomiphene citrate treatment in young hypogonadal men
Darren J. Katz , Omar Nabulsi , Raanan Tal and John P. Mulhall
Male Sexual and Reproductive Medicine Programme, Urology Service, Department of Surgery, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY, USA


ADAM QUESTIONNAIRE AND SAFETY OUTCOMES

Table 2 shows the results of the ADAM questionnaire. Overall, for all questions except loss of height, there was an
improvement in the symptoms of HG. At baseline, the median number of ‘ yes ’ responses was 5 (interquartile range 2 – 7) and this dropped to 2 (interquartile range 1 – 4) after treatment. There was a significant improvement in fi ve of the 10 variables (before vs after treatment): decreased libido (72% vs 32%), lack of energy (65% vs 40%), decreased life enjoyment (85% vs 40%), sad/ grumpy (60% vs 30%), and decreased sports performance (55% vs 25%). Table 3 showsthe proportion of patients with varying degrees of symptom improvement. More than half the patients had a subjective improvement in at least three symptoms but 10% experienced no improvement. There was no difference in response to CC in patients with or without a varicocele ( P = 0.46). There were no major side effects recorded from CC during the course of follow-up and no patient ceased CC treatment because of adverse events


And their Summary stated this

What ’ s known on the subject? and What does the study add?
Hypogonadism is a prevalent problem, increasing in frequency as men age. It is most
commonly treated by testosterone supplementation therapy but in younger patients
this can lead to testicular atrophy with subsequent exogenous testosterone
dependency and may impair spermatogenesis. Clomiphene citrate (CC) may be used as
an alternative treatment in these patients with hypogonadism when maintenance of
fertility is desired.
This study shows that CC is a safe and effi cacious drug to use as an alternative to
exogenous testosterone. Not only have we validated previous fi ndings of other papers
but have proven our fi ndings over a much longer period (mean duration of treatment
19 months). This prospective study is the largest to date assessing both the objective
hormone response to CC therapy as well as the subjective response based on a
validated questionnaire.

If anyone wants the papers leave me a private message with an email addie and I willl send to you.

Haritec
11-19-2012, 12:28 PM
This study is online and has impressive results

Chlomiphene Increases Testosterone (http://www.cenegenicsfoundation.org/library/library_files/Clomiphene_increases_free_testosterone_levels_in_m en_with_both_secondary_hypogonadism_and_erectile_d ysfunction___who_does_and_does_not_benefit.pdf)

This study looks at Testosterone / Estrogen Ratios

Ratios (http://www.cenegenicsfoundation.org/library/library_files/Clomiphene_citrate_effects_on_testosterone_estroge n_ratio_in_male_hypogonadism.pdf)


And this study looks at 3 yrs of treatment on Chlomiphene - long term study found safe

Clomiphene citrate is safe and effective for long-term management of hypogonadism (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2012.10968.x/abstract)

Releavant Abstract to the Discussion

J Sex Med. 2010 Jan;7(1 Pt 1):269-76. Epub 2009 Aug 17.

Clomiphene citrate and testosterone gel replacement therapy for male hypogonadism: efficacy and treatment cost.

Taylor F, Levine L.


Source

Rush University Medical Center-Department of Urology, Chicago, IL, USA. frederick_taylor@rush.edu


Abstract

INTRODUCTION:

The efficacy of oral clomiphene citrate (CC) in the treatment of male hypogonadism and male infertility (MI) with low serum testosterone and normal gonadotropin levels has been reported.

AIM:

The aim of this article is to evaluate CC and testosterone gel replacement therapy (TGRT) with regard to biochemical and clinical efficacy and cost.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:

The main outcome measures were change in serum testosterone with CC and TGRT therapy, and change in the androgen deficiency in aging male (ADAM) questionnaire scores with CC therapy.

METHODS:

Men receiving CC or TGRT with either Androgel 1% or Testim 1% for hypogonadism (defined as testosterone < 300 ng/mL) or MI were included. Serum values were collected 1-2 months after treatment initiation and semi-annually thereafter. Retrospective data collection was performed via chart review. Subjective follow up of patients receiving CC was performed via telephone interview using the ADAM questionnaire.

RESULTS:

A hundred and four men (65 CC and 39 TGRT) were identified who began CC (50 mg every other day) or TGRT (5 g). Average age (years) was 42(CC) vs. 57 (TGRT). Average follow up was 23 months (CC, range 8-40 months) vs. 46 months (TGRT, range 6-149 months). Average posttreatment testosterone was 573 ng/dL in the CC group and 553 ng/dL in the TGRT group (P value < 0.001). The monthly cost of Testim 1% (5 gm daily) is $270, Androgel 1% (5 gm daily) is $265, and CC (50 mg every other day) is $83. Among CC patients, the average pretreatment ADAM score was 4.9 vs. 2.1 at follow up (P < 0.05). Average pretreatment ADAM sexual function domain score was 0.76 vs. 0.23 at follow up (P < 0.05). There were no adverse events reported.

CONCLUSION:

CC represents a treatment option for men with hypogonadism, demonstrating biochemical and clinical efficacy with few side effects and lower cost as compared with TGRT.

Haritec
11-19-2012, 12:32 PM
So - now my question - what about doing both ? Could somene who has low Test ( ~ 300 ng/dl) use Clomid at a moderate dosage (say 25 mg EOD ) use Clomid to stimulate the boys and get themselves up to say ~ 500 ng/dl - then use a small amount of exogenous T cream to get up to 700 - and still not shut oneself down ? What causes shutdown from exogenous T - is it only if you take too much ?

nate3993
11-19-2012, 01:06 PM
So - now my question - what about doing both ? Could somene who has low Test ( ~ 300 ng/dl) use Clomid at a moderate dosage (say 25 mg EOD ) use Clomid to stimulate the boys and get themselves up to say ~ 500 ng/dl - then use a small amount of exogenous T cream to get up to 700 - and still not shut oneself down ? What causes shutdown from exogenous T - is it only if you take too much ?
any exogenous hormone causes shutdown. you body sees there's hormones in the blood and tells the testis no need to produce anymore cuz there's already hormones in the body.of course depending on what you're taking and how long will dictate what kind of shut down, but that wouldn't work. either your boosting you t, or your supplementing with exogenous. it's like taking a test booster while on steroids. sounds good in theory, but a complete waste. now, hcg is good for cycles to keep the testis from completely and utterly being shut down, but taking clomid and then taking test would be counter productive.

BBG
11-19-2012, 06:13 PM
So - now my question - what about doing both ? Could somene who has low Test ( ~ 300 ng/dl) use Clomid at a moderate dosage (say 25 mg EOD ) use Clomid to stimulate the boys and get themselves up to say ~ 500 ng/dl - then use a small amount of exogenous T cream to get up to 700 - and still not shut oneself down ? What causes shutdown from exogenous T - is it only if you take too much ?

Your body just sense that there is too many sex hormones and stops your body from producing them. It could be estrogen, dht or testosterone. Everyone's body is different.

You could theoretically supplement with a little bit of hormones each day and not cause shutdown, but it probably wouldn't really do much in the short term. Over a long period of time you may see better results than if you didn't use a little hormone each day.

Jelisej
11-19-2012, 06:56 PM
OK, first clomid part- body has its own way of controling estrogen and when estrogen is low (if HPTA is not shut) it sends more LH to raise estrogen levels (as all estrogen in men comes from testosterone)- so what clomid does is it blocks estrogen in some receptors so brain thinks there is not enough estrogen so it raises LH- so basically we trick body.
Problem with clomid is it blocks estrogen in some tissues but there can be build up in other- and for majority, not just estrogen, SHBG and DHT can be all over the place. And to make thing more difficult- when on clomid we cannot measure E2.
So basically Clomid is good for restart "protocols" and PCT but for majority is not good as TRT protocol.
Other weakness of clomid is it raises testosterone, but if adrenals and/or thyroid is malfunctioning it cant help there, and raising TT for someone who has adrenal fatigue can theoretically be fatal.

As for adding hormones- "end of the line" hormones (estrogen, DHT..) are supressive, but for example pregnenolone itself is not really supressive (as far as I know) and in theory you could top up all other hormones with adding pregnenolone, (altough in practice it rarely works that way) when E2 starts to raise that will cause shutdown for sure. Also what happens when supplementing pregnenolone and DHEA as well I think- as you raise dosage your liver enzymes raise- so it goes to "drain".

adding exogenous testosterone will definitely shut you down, eventually- practically lot of guys get shut after first shot, but also there were few guys on T shots and still had some LH after few weeks, I dont know why or how- but even they get shutdown eventually.

josh
11-19-2012, 07:07 PM
If anyone wants the papers leave me a private message with an email addie and I willl send to you.

PM sent. Thanks



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