Anti-gyno masteron cycle: input appreciated

[pman42]

I'm about 5 weeks into a masteron-only cycle (525mg/wk) for anti-gyno purposes. The irritation from the gyno is completely gone, which is good because in the recent past it always is irritated when I'm not on raloxifene or AndroHard (although gyno became immune to ralox), and irritation is usually a sign of growth. However I'm not convinced the gyno is regressing, and the other day I convinced myself that one nip was actually getting worse. but as those of you who have had gyno know, you could spend all day palpating it and convincing yourself it is getting smaller or larger. Is it just too soon to expect results? I really want this shit gone. am i just being paranoid?

So, should I add anything? or maybe switch compounds to stanolone acetate? weekend suggested test at just above a TRT dose plus aromasin. also cabergoline has come up as a possible agent. Again, the 1st and foremost goal is gyno reduction, any other benefits (and I have seen a few with mast) are a veeeeery distant 2nd. Also, I am headed for TRT anyway and my natural test production is in the toilet, so shutdown doesn't concern me too much (but even still I am using HCG MWF).

input would be appreciated, thanks

[Jelisej]

I used proviron for same purposes, my gyno was not big and if I remember correctly it took 2 months to eliminate most of it, but some people took lot longerto get rid of gyno with proviron (up to 6 months) I dont know much about effectivenes of masteron but I think its far inferior. Gyno regress will happen very slowly. Personaly I wouls suggest you to add little test, for sake of fun, add some other DHT compound and reduce masteron, continue using HCG but be aware that you still need AI- at small dose.

[weekend]

I'm about 5 weeks into a masteron-only cycle (525mg/wk) for anti-gyno purposes. The irritation from the gyno is completely gone, which is good because in the recent past it always is irritated when I'm not on raloxifene or AndroHard (although gyno became immune to ralox), and irritation is usually a sign of growth. However I'm not convinced the gyno is regressing, and the other day I convinced myself that one nip was actually getting worse. but as those of you who have had gyno know, you could spend all day palpating it and convincing yourself it is getting smaller or larger. Is it just too soon to expect results? I really want this shit gone. am i just being paranoid?

So, should I add anything? or maybe switch compounds to stanolone acetate? weekend suggested test at just above a TRT dose plus aromasin. also cabergoline has come up as a possible agent. Again, the 1st and foremost goal is gyno reduction, any other benefits (and I have seen a few with mast) are a veeeeery distant 2nd. Also, I am headed for TRT anyway and my natural test production is in the toilet, so shutdown doesn't concern me too much (but even still I am using HCG MWF).

input would be appreciated, thanks

the test and mast will enhance each other's effects, especially if you keep e2 at low end of range

i will be able to hopefully give the stanolone/DHT a review very soon (DAMN YOU POST OFFICE)

other options to enhance gyno reduction include winny, halotestin, epi... it all depends on the person who these will work for.

and i can't say i'm toooooo much of an expert on gyno reduction (hence the fact that mine is flared and can't figure out how to fix). not sure anyone is.

the biggest thing for me is that i have a huge problem controlling my appetite. there are foods that inflame my gyno, but i literally cannot stay away from them for more than two days. i go insane. part of that may be the steroids. we will see when i come off, which will be very soon.

i have not used toremifene except when gyno was pretty dormant, but some also give it glowing reviews. since it's my main PCT drug, i'll also be able to give that some more insight. i can say the summer after i used torem, my gyno was the smallest it had ever been in pictures.

[Jelisej]

Gyno reduction is not that fast process, so its very important to consider side effects as well- halotestin is liver toxic to the point I'm surprised that its still being sold, winstrol is good to combine with trenbolone for like 8 weeks tops and thats all as it is also somewhat hepatoxic and it does have some negative effect on tendons. battle agains gyno is reserved for compounds that are very similar to DHT itself and have few sides- proviron, andractim are the one that come to my mind and they can be mixrd with masteron or one can even add primobolan as they all would be somewhat different from each other- and added benefits would be some fat loss, bit of muscle gains and lot of strenght gains. And little test for full shebang.
Also this is good opportunity to monitor your endocrine response- how will your thyroid respond, and especially your adrenals as they will be under strain- this info will come handy in future. Combined with bloodworks, will give you and idea of how your TRT will look like.

[pman42]

Jeli, proviron is very expensive when talking about proper dosages (75mg+). any opinion on stanolone acetate? in theory it should be pure DHT not chemically altered like masteron. very hard to find info on it though

[weekend]

^jel is right. A longer cycle including multiple nontoxic DHT derivatives seems the best bet

The biggest thing is the stanolone on paper should work the best... But do we know it's real stanolone?!

[Jelisej]

Jeli, proviron is very expensive when talking about proper dosages (75mg+). any opinion on stanolone acetate? in theory it should be pure DHT not chemically altered like masteron. very hard to find info on it though

AFAIK, Andractim is androstanolone aka stanolone.

BTW, do get some aromasin as it seems that you aromatise at extreme rate.

[pman42]

Hey Jeli, when you said that TRT would eventually correct the gyno is this through the correction of androgen:estrogen ratio? and you think this would be the case even for a protracted case of gyno?

[Jelisej]

Hey Jeli, when you said that TRT would eventually correct the gyno is this through the correction of androgen:estrogen ratio? and you think this would be the case even for a protracted case of gyno?

Yes it should do, unless its became fibrous- which happens if its there for very long time, and then its to hard (and to slow) to get rid of it- surgery is then better option. I dont think your's is fibrous, its seems to me that it just did not have chance for reduction as you aromatise at extreme rate (at the moment I think excess E2 is coming from HCG).

Back to original question- gyno is not uncommon thing, middle aged man get it often as well and usually it goes away if their androgen-estrogen balance has been restored- tough usually it takes time, over 6 months.
Personally, I had it twice and was not using anything at the time- first time it took 6-7 months, then again after while I got another one, and second time I used proviron and got rid of it, after that I started taking AI among others, so I never got it again- tough I had sensitivity few time, and would surely get it if was not using AI.

[pman42]

Being as how my #1 (and basically only) goal at this point is gyno reduction, would test + AI add anything to the anti-gyno potential of whatever else I'm throwing t it? in theory it should raise DHT as well as providing test obviously, so it would improve the androgen:estrogen ratio

the euro pharma people can't seem to guarantee deliver of the topical DHT so that is a $250 dollar risk... still considering it

[nate3993]

Naw...,don't add test.....it won't help reducing it.....I know weekend noticed much better reduction when he dropped test and he wasn't even on a high dose. As far as the DHT....I'd just invest in 250 bucks worth of proviron from evolved...youre guaranteed delivery. And dose that shit high...150 a day....just a suggestion for a DHT product that you wouldn't have to stress out about not getting and at ers's price.......you could get a lot of viron

[pman42]

Thanks, that was kinda what I was thinking-- if DHT if the anti-gyno powerhouse then why mess with test? DHT might not have much of an anabolic effect but I am certainly noticing more hardness and energy/aggression, so it is eliciting a recomp effect and that's just great. Jeli, if you see this please feel free to chime in. My other question is whether there's any point in adding an AI while on DHT exclusively as DHT doesn't aromatize and indeed has a bit of an anti-estrogenic effect in it own right.

[Jelisej]

Well, initially I was against testosterone use, as it really can more backfire than fight gyno- but recently I've changed my opinion and sided with Weekend, for other reasons than gyno: from old pp forum I had impression of you as a well organised person, but somehow it seems that you are slippping away, I mean all thins anti-gyno cycle was not well executed, and generally I've got a feeling that you are not really feeling too good, and I think for that reason test would be helpful. Not high dose, but maybe 150. So basically, I would kind of bridge current cycle with TRT as it seems that this can take a longer time. Obviously as estrogen is issue AI is must have, but even with HCG only you seems that you aromatise a lot anyway, so only you need to increase AI dose.
Adding proviron is not bad idea, you dont really need that much, maybe 2X 25mg a day on top of masteron.

[pman42]

You're right it was a bit hasty, and that was because I was desperate to find something to reduce gyno. this was also the reason I was feeling so crummy-- the sense that gyno was getting worse. and I do appreciate all your help. normally i am disciplined and organized but this time i just dove headfirst because of the aforementioned reasons.

TRT has been an ongoing project, now I have a lead on an endo that will be hopefully more open to it so need to get a referral then we shall see.

[Jelisej]

IMO, main thing is to keep using HCG as it kind of keeps all options open- including SERM restart. All other things are more-less negotiable and you can have last word, basically we still dont know what caused your issues and is not excluded that some time in future your find some underlying cause that is treatable, in which case you could basically return to normal.
As for endo- that is always good idea to find good one who actually pays attention. Other option would be to go to see urologist- usually they are more open-minded and in most places they can prescribe TRT.

[pman42]

Lately I've been feeling super depressed, and while I have had some big losses in life lately, I seem to be more down than I would have expected. I'm wondering if this could be due to suppression of natural testosterone or perhaps the adrenal issue you alluded to.

thoughts? things to try?

[Jelisej]

The way you described things points in direction of neurotransmitters, I would say insufficient serotonin activity due to low E2 (I guess) which is now probably at bottom plus all that DHT. as a matter of fact I felt like that myself on my anti-gyno course, tough it was tolerable.
Worst was on my first cycle where I used masteron and some wet compound (some DHEA derivative) plus few bits (cannot recall)- and I used arimidex as an AI, which did not work well for me and I found it next to impossible to control E2- first it went high, than it would go to drains (arimidex) but then it would rebound- despite arimidex longish half-life in my case E2 would rebound in a less than day. so I was on emotional roller-coaster, and in the end I could not distinguish low from high E2. Nightmare experience- remember watching film and any little bit sad scene would bring me to verge of tears....

You could add some pregnenolone, as it has benefitial effedts on neurotransmitters, and then depending on plans- how long you plan to stay on you could add little bit testosterone, but again it can be tricky on gyno. Other option is to add some oral DHEA as excess will convert to E2. this things can ease problems- tough I dont think you can completely resolve your problem as you've been while "on" and its possible that apart of low E2 and test. there is another part of endocrine system that cannot cope which creates further imbalance in hormones and subsequently neurotransmitter imbalance.

Its good thing to monitor whats happening, what are you taking effects, symptoms etc... try to write them in handbook as these things will come handy in future. any bloodowork is welcome.

I'm really sorry that you have to go through all this.... Any luck with gyno? Based on what you said there should be some progress, sensitivity should definitely be gone...

[markam]

I've found that 100mgs 5-HTP before bed can significantly help with mood issues.
Obviously it's not going to fixed out of whack estrogen levels, but if your dopamine levels
are low, it should help.

[pman42]

Been away for a spell. here's what's up:

went from stanolone acetate injection to topical andractim. the stanolone near the bottom of the vial was getting really concentrated and i think that was giving me the low estro symptoms. thanks for the words of empathy, Jeli, and as always thanks for your help. gyno is a problem i would not wish on my worst enemy.

as far as sensitivity goes, it's gone. I mean if i palpate the gyno it returns a bit but basically not there. i still am on the fence whether there is noticeable regression. it took a long time to get to this point so i'm guessing it can take a long time to go the other way. i am heartened by eric's article though, when he states that no degree of gyno is "untreatable"-- it just might take time.

so priorities for now are to continue to cruise on DHT and, once I get some noticeable regression going, get on HRT. this sound reasonable?

thanks again.

[weekend]

Been away for a spell. here's what's up:

went from stanolone acetate injection to topical andractim. the stanolone near the bottom of the vial was getting really concentrated and i think that was giving me the low estro symptoms. thanks for the words of empathy, Jeli, and as always thanks for your help. gyno is a problem i would not wish on my worst enemy.

as far as sensitivity goes, it's gone. I mean if i palpate the gyno it returns a bit but basically not there. i still am on the fence whether there is noticeable regression. it took a long time to get to this point so i'm guessing it can take a long time to go the other way. i am heartened by eric's article though, when he states that no degree of gyno is "untreatable"-- it just might take time.

so priorities for now are to continue to cruise on DHT and, once I get some noticeable regression going, get on HRT. this sound reasonable?

thanks again.

This is not that complicated. Get on TRT now. Use an AI. 150 mg/week should be perfect. Stop spinning your wheels with this shit, get the TRT and feel better.

[Jelisej]

IMO at this point is where you can start "merging" your "cruise" and HRT, what I mean is you can either go on HRT but keep with DHT, or you can continue "cruise" but add bit of test. Now, it sounds to me that you got a grasp, you start to understand how your own E2 levels behave- so all you need to do is keep E2 in check- not allow it to go high but also not drive it to ground. And obviously DHT will do its job- as for DHT dosage moderate dosage would do its trick, and on top of that you may add bit of testosterone, you can start with 100mg a week, split in 3 doses; Mon-wed-fri is ok. Later you can adjust dosage. And monitor thyroid-cortisol to see if it will be able to sustain new, higher levels.
Basically, IMO wheter you going into HRT straight away it does not matter too much as in any case first period is monitoring, learning dosages, right levels etc... which are you doing anyway.
On other hand, I still hope that you will find underlying cause of problems, sort it out and go back to natural.

[pman42]

my thinking is this with regards to shrinkage:
a) historically, sensitivity means growth
b) lack of sensitivity means no growth or shrinkage
c) no sensitivity or pain now so must be shrinking

despite my paranoia i think it is shrinking. will DHT keep doing its job indefinitely? I mean, raloxifene eventually stopped being effective. I really hope and pray DHT will do the job.

as this gyno has had a good long time to get ingrained, how long do you figure it will take to get it under control? after a few months now of a pure anti-gyno cycle (albeit switching compounds), do you think there should be drastic reductions? or is it slow and steady wins the race?

thanks a lot

[Jelisej]

Well, I think DHT only start working properly recently, - I think masteron was a poor choice, as from my experience is quite ineffective and actually it was used in medical trials to block estrogen in breast tissues and it was not effective enough. For 100% foolproof gyno treatment and future prevention is operation- where they completely remove glands. In your scenario- glands will be there, they may swell a bit from time to time or be sensitive but it should get reduce to the "normal". About time it depends, it is not fast process- it took me 2 months (do my treatment was working from beging) at it may take up to 6 months.

[pman42]

I have an appt with endo in August, bit longer than I'd like but I'm not gonna rest til I have TRT.

andractim was a waste, mostly. I felt like it just sat on top of the skin.

If I'm doing proviron solo, what dosage would you say? is there ANY reason to add test + AI for additional anti-gyno effects (at this point it would be UGL) or should I just wait to have legit Rx.


also: I have been unable to find any info about the metabolism of proviron. would there be any advantage to taking it with fat? what about grapefruit juice to enhance the absorption?

[pman42]

also if I'm taking, say, 125mg, would it be better to take it all at once or split it into 2 dosages? keeping in mind suppression is not a concern at all since i'm headed to TRT

[Jelisej]

Before anything else- I owe you an apology, as it seems that things are not working the way I expected- neither andractim nor DHT cycle. In future I will keep my mouth shut when it comes to gyno topic.

I'm not sure why andractim is not working for you- not sure if andractim itself is bunk or other option would be that your thyroid hormone levels were low or on lower side which causes thick skin and generally for hypothyroid people transdermals dont work well.
Try to apply it on scrotum?

Proviron has relatively short half-life so spliting it into two doses is must; I dont know about absorption.

Testosterone would not help with gyno, tough you would feel better.

[pman42]

the proviron is not working at 125mg. looks like i'm bound for surgery. oh well, at least then it'll be gone.

how long should i wait until after proviron to get accurate bloodwork? i assume it would affect testosterone, what about prolactin?

[Jelisej]

Proviron itself clears very fast, how lon it will take to return to baseline levels- its hard to say if it was proviron alone it would be fairly quickly, maybe month otherwise it can take 2-3 months if there was other stuff or a lot lot longer if it was nandrolone...

Prolactin mainly is byproduct of TSH- when TSH is high so it will be prolactin, pituary adenoma will cause elevated prolactin levels, and high progesterone levels cause elevated prolactin. Stress as well can bring prolactin a lot, even for people who are afraid of needles get elevated prolactin because of blood draw itself.

[weekend]

I have an appt with endo in August, bit longer than I'd like but I'm not gonna rest til I have TRT.

andractim was a waste, mostly. I felt like it just sat on top of the skin.

If I'm doing proviron solo, what dosage would you say? is there ANY reason to add test + AI for additional anti-gyno effects (at this point it would be UGL) or should I just wait to have legit Rx.


also: I have been unable to find any info about the metabolism of proviron. would there be any advantage to taking it with fat? what about grapefruit juice to enhance the absorption?

YES there is. so you stop feeling like shit. also having proper test levels will allow the proviron to work better (proviron is not very good at doing it's job with rock bottom test like you have, plus it is suppressing it further)

people with good test levels don't get gyno, people with low test get gyno... get on test and even if it doesn't improve your gyno, it will improve everything else.