Clomid & Nolva PCT

[markam]

Anyone using both in PCT? According to some, the synergy is good.

I think Nolva is usually dosed @ 20mgs ed for 6 weeks and Clomid 100/100/50/50

Perhaps Clomid @ 50/50/25/25 would be sufficient, or maybe even less?

Need some swolesource wisdom here, please:)

[nate3993]

Clomid at 100 just isn't needed....and I can say that 25 is pretty much as effective as 50...clomids a powerful ass SERM. U wanna use 50mgs for a week ok, but higher, or dosing 50 mg's for more than a week or two just isn't needed...I know I feels the same way

[markam]

Clomid at 100 just isn't needed....and I can say that 25 is pretty much as effective as 50...clomids a powerful ass SERM. U wanna use 50mgs for a week ok, but higher, or dosing 50 mg's for more than a week or two just isn't needed...I know I feels the same way

Running Clomid at the lowest effective dose is what I'm after. But would Clomid be ok @25mgs for for only 4 weeks alongside Nolva @20mgs for 6 weeks?

[weekend]

I would run like this:

Clomid

25/25/25/12.5/12.5

Nolva

20/20/20/20/20/20

Assuming the cycle is decently light

[Jelisej]

I cannot recall exactly- but 20 mg of nolvadex/tamoxifene is equal to more than 100 mg of clomiphene citrate. 10mg of nolvadex per day is more than enough on its own, seriously. People use like 5 mg a day of nolva (as test booster) and it can keep LH in top of the range.

As for clomiphene 25mg a day is top range (or alternatively 50mg eod)- majority are fine with half of that, really. More than that brings only sides.

So, proposed PCT would be overkill, dosage needs to be reduced for both compounds.

[markam]

Thanks for all the replies.

So, perhaps Clomid 25/25/25/12.5/12.5 (5 weeks)
Nolva 10/10/10/10/10/10 (6 weeks)

Also with Aromasin 12.5 ed 6 weeks then 1 week 12.5 eod.

Maybe run the Nolva at 20mgs for the first week?

Another question I have concerns using raloxifene on cycle as a gyno preventative measure. I used Ralox 60mg ed and 2x25mg ATD ed while running Dienazone at 2mls for 4 weeks and didn't suffer any E2 symptoms. Previously I started getting E2 symptoms when running Dienazone so either the ATD or the Ralox(or combination) is doing the job.
But, would you say the Ralox dosage is too small, anyway?

It would be very helpful if there was a 'Swole Source' guide to PCT and cycle supports, as Jelisej mentioned a while back.

[Jelisej]

OK, I dont really have any (serious) feedback and did not see any bloodworks from person running both tamoxifene and clomiphene so I cannot comment; but upper limit for solo clomiphene is 175 mg a week, and solo tamoxifene 70 mg a week- so I would say that if running both these figures should be reduced big time, probably to 50 % (as both compounds are actually very similar, really). If harsher compounds were used better have longer PCT. From to high SERM dosage you get sides (emotionally unstable etc).

Now, I would like to say that dead person with 3 bullets in the head is not more dead than person with one bullet in head, same goes for shutdown- the difference is only in some other hormones- for example if using compound that causes build-up of progesterone, knowing that it takes awfull long time to for progesterone to clear itself (I dont know any supps that are effective in reducing it) person with high progesterone may take few months to restore its hormonal equilibrium. In mean time he may have lower libido- for few reasons.
Factor number two: PCT start calculation- is very difficult thing to calculate, and most of people tend to get it wrong, for few reasons- miscalculated half-time and very commonly mistake is that people tend to use same date when using different amounts of certain compound- meaning if one person is using 500 mg of test e, and other 750 test e- their PCT start calculations will be completely different, the one with higher dose will have to wait longer

As for gyno- E2 is culprit, keep E2 in range and there is no gyno, aromasin is simplest choice.

On addition to SERM and AI, vitamin D is must have, as it is test booster it protects bones and from bone pain in PCT plus other benefits, mixed nuts 9 (or other tocopherills like tocco-8), and some viagra- these things work together in synergy (SERMS raise LH, mixed nuts make testicles more sensitive to LH and viagra makes usage of LH more efficient).

[markam]

Great info as always, Jelisej!

I had guessed that using Viagra in PCT was purely to help one 'perform' and feel better physiologically. I had no idea that 'viagra makes usage of LH more efficient'.

You also mentioned using Nolva as a test booster, Is that similar to the clomid restart protocol (even though you use Nolva)?



Thanks again for the help. Would be great to get a 'sticky' on PCT so all the relevant info is in one place.

[Jelisej]

"You also mentioned using Nolva as a test booster, Is that similar to the clomid restart protocol (even though you use Nolva)?"

Basically, tamoxifene and clomiphene are very similar- its like Stella Artois and Budweiser- there are differences but neverthless its same category- so whatever goes for clomiphene goes for tamoxifene, really. Only thing is that clomiphene has more research behind it, which calms and reassure people, and makes things easier to explain.

here you will find about viagra/sidenafil and why use them in PCT, check post #7 and further posts:
Anbolic technologies (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/quick-questions/1577-anbolic-technologies.html)

[Cobalt]

Clomid and Viagra are synergistic, done it myself with good results.

I've also read that Clomid and Letro are synergistic, going to give it a shot soon.

[weekend]

Yo jel, I have tadalafil... Is Viagra preferable for pct?

[Jelisej]

.. Is Viagra preferable for pct?

Not really, in some studies they used other PDE5 inhibitors with good results, so its not neccessary viagra.
From anecdotal evidence, all are good to go. Lot of people prefer levitra, as it gives them less sides. Taladafil has advantage of longer half-life.
Here is the study that says taladafil is better, but (IMO) study was bunk, as they did not take taladafils longer half-life in account.


Type V phosphodiesterase inhibitor treatments for erectile dysfunction increase testosterone levels.Carosa E, Martini P, Brandetti F, Di Stasi SM, Lombardo F, Lenzi A, Jannini EA.
Department of Experimental Medicine, University of L'Aquila, L'Aquila, Italy.

OBJECTIVE: Lack of sexual activity due to erectile dysfunction (ED) decreases testosterone (T) levels through a central effect on the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. In this paper we studied the effect of different type V phosphodiesterase (PDE5) inhibitor treatments for ED on the reversibility of this endocrine pattern. DESIGN: Open-label, retrospective study. PATIENTS: Seventy-four consecutive patients were treated on demand with sildenafil (Sild) (50 mg) and tadalafil (Tad) 20 mg. MEASUREMENTS: The success in sexual intercourse was recorded and total (tT) and free testosterone (fT) levels were studied before and after 3 months of treatment. RESULTS: Basal level of tT and fT were at the bottom of the normal range and LH levels were at the top of the high normal range. After treatments, this endocrine pattern was reversed in both groups. However, the T increase in Sild-treated patients was significantly lower than in those treated with Tad (4.7 +/- 2.7 vs. 5.1 +/- 0.9, P < 0.001). fT levels followed a directly proportional pattern, while the inverse was found when LH production was studied. The intercourse rate reflected this effect: in fact, the Sild group showed a 4.9 +/- 2.9/month full sexual intercourse rate while in the Tad group a significantly higher rate of sexual intercourse was found (6.9 +/- 4.6/month, P = 0.04). However, drug consumption was comparable between the groups (Sild 4.9 +/- 2.9 vs. Tad 4.4 +/- 2.8 pills/month, P = 0.72). CONCLUSIONS: As it is unlikely that the two drugs have a different direct effect on the pituitary-testis axis, this effect is probably due to the higher frequency of full sexual intercourse in the Tad-treated group, because of the drug's longer half-life.

[markam]

Apparently Viagra gives great pumps taken before a workout, but probably best to only do this if you work out at home, Lol.

@Jelisej, re the clomid restart dosing, 25mgs Ed was used for 6 weeks. I think you said that you preferred Nolva, so what would you say the equivalent dosage of Nolva is compared to 25mgs Clomid?

[Jelisej]

I cannot find anything among my paperworks, but f I remember correctly, clomid needs to be dosed around 4-5 times more than tamoxifen, so I would say 5 mg of tamoxifene would be comparable to 25 mg of clomid.
Typically no more than 10 mg of nolva per day, or 20 eod is needed. Lot of people boost their test. levels with 5mg of tamoxifen a day, so 10 mg a day will definitely suffice.
You can mix clomid and tamoxifen as you wanted in first place, no problem.

[markam]

Update.

Run Clomid @25mgs and Nolva @10mgs for 5 days. My eyes feel what best can be described as bleary and 'scratchy', and I have a sort of tension headache.
I dropped the Nolva and symptoms have lessened. So now I am thinking of running PCT as follows:

Wk1 Clomid 25mgs
Wk2 Clomid 25mgs
Wk3 Clomid 12.5mgs
Wk4 Clomid 12.5mgs EOD / Nolva 10mgs
WK5 Nolva 10mgs
WK6 Nolva 10mgs

I got the idea of starting with Clomid and finishing with Nolva from Datbtrue. BTW He thinks Toremefine is hype!

I noticed that he uses or has used DAA with Clomid, but that might not be a good idea? I need to research that.

[markam]

@ jelisej, You mention that Nolva is about 4-5 times stronger than clomid, so in my 4th week of pct I will do 12.5mgs Clomid eod and 10 mgs Nolva eod then in week 5&6 10mgs Nolva ed. Clomid is def working at 12.5mgs but is 10mgs enough for Nolva?

Edit. Just read your previous post where you state 10mgs is enough:)

[Jelisej]

Yeah, 10 mgs is enough, 5 mg would probably suffice. Anyway, 6weeks is ok, but maybe to extend for another 2weeks or so with 5 mg of nolva, as you are not that young....
As for DAA you asked earlier, at the moment I do not recommend it even in pct as it potentially can have sides, basically its potentially neurotoxic, plus from my experience sometimes it causes long term problem with prolactin.

[markam]

Yeah, 10 mgs is enough, 5 mg would probably suffice. Anyway, 6weeks is ok, but maybe to extend for another 2weeks or so with 5 mg of nolva, as you are not that young....
As for DAA you asked earlier, at the moment I do not recommend it even in pct as it potentially can have sides, basically its potentially neurotoxic, plus from my experience sometimes it causes long term problem with prolactin.

Cool.

I intended to do 6 weeks for the Serm/AI and a 7th week with my usual PCT dosage of Aromasin @ 12.5mg ed and the 8th week @ 12.5mg eod, so I'll just lengthen the whole cycle. This will mean that I'll be running aromasin for 9 weeks, is that ok?

Maybe do this, now:

WK 1-3 Clomid 12.5mgs ed (Aromasin 12.5mgs ed)
WK 4 Clomid 12.5 mgs eod / Nolva 10 mgs eod (Aromasin 12.5mgs ed)
WK 5-6 Nolva 10 mgs ed (Aromasin 12.5mgs ed)
WK 7-8 Nolva 5 mgs ed (Aromasin 12.5mgs eod)
WK 9 Aromasin 12.5 mgs eod.

Should I run Aromasin solo for 2 weeks or 1 week from week 9? Providing I don't get any E2 sides, 1 week should be plenty?

Thanks again for your invaluable help!

[Jelisej]

Maybe do this, now:
WK 1-3 Clomid 12.5mgs ed (Aromasin 12.5mgs ed)
WK 4 Clomid 12.5 mgs eod / Nolva 10 mgs eod (Aromasin 12.5mgs ed)
WK 5-6 Nolva 10 mgs ed (Aromasin 12.5mgs ed)
WK 7-8 Nolva 5 mgs ed (Aromasin 12.5mgs eod)
WK 9 Aromasin 12.5 mgs eod.

Does look allright, not sure about aromasin dosage and that can be tricky, try to gauge by symptoms (morning woods, mood changes etc) if you can, otherwise all seems good.

[markam]

Maybe do this, now:
WK 1-3 Clomid 12.5mgs ed (Aromasin 12.5mgs ed)
WK 4 Clomid 12.5 mgs eod / Nolva 10 mgs eod (Aromasin 12.5mgs ed)
WK 5-6 Nolva 10 mgs ed (Aromasin 12.5mgs ed)
WK 7-8 Nolva 5 mgs ed (Aromasin 12.5mgs eod)
WK 9 Aromasin 12.5 mgs eod.

Does look allright, not sure about aromasin dosage and that can be tricky, try to gauge by symptoms (morning woods, mood changes etc) if you can, otherwise all seems good.

Jeez, it's never easy, is it. Lol.

Re aromasin, if I'm tolerating 12.5mgs ed ok, would it be best to keep to that dosage until maybe a week after discontinuing the Serm?

[Jelisej]

Jeez, it's never easy, is it. Lol.

Re aromasin, if I'm tolerating 12.5mgs ed ok, would it be best to keep to that dosage until maybe a week after discontinuing the Serm?

Hahaha, no it is not easy... Yeah, definitely run aromasin for a week-or-two after discontinuing SERM (as they have quite long half-life).
Good thing about aromasin is that E2 returns back to normal relatively quickly, without rebound effect somewhere between 4 and 7 day (I think), so if you feel you're overdosing you can reduce dosage, and also you can increase dosage if you feel that E2 is still to high. On top using vit d reduces damage to the bones, so all should be fine.