PDA

View Full Version : Considering a cycle, first timer



KGPL
04-07-2014, 05:48 PM
New member here, I've been considering running a cycle for a while now and have been trying to do as much research as physically possible to understand every aspect that I can. I've decided on one thing for certain though, no injections.

Here's a bit about me:
18.5 years old
Just over 3 years training experience
Paid my dues in regards to strength training. (600 deadlift, 405 squat, 285 bench. These have dropped since I cut, but foundation is there)
Diet/nutrition is in check
Multiple experiences with bulking/cutting. Started at 270lbs, cut to 160ish, then bulked/cut my way to ~200lbs at a low BF%. 5'11".
Have some gyno from obese childhood and some not so tight skin, keeping me from getting a dry appearance.


Overall goals with running a cycle:
Drop some BF%, hopefully shrink gyno, and obtain vascular/dry appearance. I do not need to worry about packing on size really, I can do that with food just fine. Maybe add some strength, but they all will do this to a degree.

Obviously, I want as few side effects as possible. Will run with liver supports and proper PCT. Planning on mild compounds.


Compounds I've considered:
Ironmaglabs epi andro+_______
Epistane
Tbol



Now I know I will get all sorts of comments about cycling at my age. Please, go ahead and throw as many comments you want towards me. I'm open to everything and want to learn as much as possible. It's a gamble at my age, but with research and proper product use I feel as if I can reduce the chance of anything going south.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I can gladly post pictures of my current physique as proof that I'm not just some 18 yearold wanting to "GET HUGE QUICK," as I'm sure you guys see plenty of those threads...

BBG
04-07-2014, 06:40 PM
Well... I think you're too young (even though I started out just before I turned 20). But... Epistane is pretty awesome. Halodrol is a good choice as well.

You probably won't shrink gyno on cycle and you definitely don't want to be running an AI without something that aromatizes. Most of the time that's just bad news and will definitely hinder gains.

KGPL
04-07-2014, 07:08 PM
Well... I think you're too young (even though I started out just before I turned 20). But... Epistane is pretty awesome. Halodrol is a good choice as well.

You probably won't shrink gyno on cycle and you definitely don't want to be running an AI without something that aromatizes. Most of the time that's just bad news and will definitely hinder gains.

I've heard some seemingly "too good to be true" stories about epistane and it's effects on gyno.

I know that physically, I am too young, but the side effects can greatly be reduced by a proper cycle. Still doing research, just trying out more specifics so I can hopefully find other logs/experiences from those at a similar age.


So no Nolva if I were to use epiandro? What would PCT be?

My main concern with epistane is how harsh it is on the liver, which is why I considered epiandro in the first place as it seems to have no relation to liver issues.

I'll post up some pictures of my physique tomorrow to give you guys an idea where I am.

BBG
04-07-2014, 08:08 PM
Epistane will be totally fine at 40mg for 4-6 weeks. You shouldn't have any liver problems unless you're predisposed to them.

PCT is simple, just 40/40/20/20 for nolva. Or 120/120/60/60 -OR- 120/80/60/60 for Toremifene.

VayneZ
04-07-2014, 08:58 PM
That is some pretty HEAVY deadlifting!!! :eek:

burlyman30
04-07-2014, 10:58 PM
Welcome to the forum. I'll admit, you've put in some time and accomplished quite a bit with your lifts, so nice going. And I would feel a little hypocritical saying "don't start hormonals so young", as I was 19 when I began, though I had 6 years or training and high-level competing by that time. I personally think that if you can make more gains without anabolics, then it is wiser to do so prior to jumping on. I started on gear because I had stalled completely for over a year.

So now that the "opinion" is out of the way, if you are dead-set on starting anabolics, something like epiandro is a mild anabolic, high androgenic product that will bring some mild to moderate gains. BBG mentioned epistane and halodrol. Those would probably be the next step up in anabolism. Halodrol would put on a bit more size than the epistane. They are both methylated, so you'd want liver supports. They are also more suppressive than epiandro.

Keep in mind what your ultimate end goal is. And what it is that you need to do to get to that point.

Scope75
04-08-2014, 05:44 AM
X2 what all these guys have said and I'd recommend just starting out with some Epi Andro RX or PNs Epi Andro Hard.

I think 4-6caps of Epi Andro RX for 6-8wks would treat you very well and not be to taxing on the body.

markam
04-08-2014, 10:27 AM
X2 what all these guys have said and I'd recommend just starting out with some Epi Andro RX or PNs Epi Andro Hard.

I think 4-6caps of Epi Andro RX for 6-8wks would treat you very well and not be to taxing on the body.

+5 pumps Dermacrine ed. Great first cycle!

KGPL
04-08-2014, 12:01 PM
Welcome to the forum. I'll admit, you've put in some time and accomplished quite a bit with your lifts, so nice going. And I would feel a little hypocritical saying "don't start hormonals so young", as I was 19 when I began, though I had 6 years or training and high-level competing by that time. I personally think that if you can make more gains without anabolics, then it is wiser to do so prior to jumping on. I started on gear because I had stalled completely for over a year.

So now that the "opinion" is out of the way, if you are dead-set on starting anabolics, something like epiandro is a mild anabolic, high androgenic product that will bring some mild to moderate gains. BBG mentioned epistane and halodrol. Those would probably be the next step up in anabolism. Halodrol would put on a bit more size than the epistane. They are both methylated, so you'd want liver supports. They are also more suppressive than epiandro.

Keep in mind what your ultimate end goal is. And what it is that you need to do to get to that point.

Appreciate the advice from everyone.

I'm still not 100% set on going towards anabolics, but mainly just taking my research to the next level in case I do decide to go that route in the near future. The more I learn on this, the better chance I have a positive outcome if I were to use them.

Is there any reason for me to be stacking epistane with epi andro? Obviously, I would want to see some results afterwards, but if this would be too much, then I would stick to just one of them.

burlyman30
04-08-2014, 12:22 PM
Appreciate the advice from everyone.

I'm still not 100% set on going towards anabolics, but mainly just taking my research to the next level in case I do decide to go that route in the near future. The more I learn on this, the better chance I have a positive outcome if I were to use them.

Is there any reason for me to be stacking epistane with epi andro? Obviously, I would want to see some results afterwards, but if this would be too much, then I would stick to just one of them.

I think epiandro plus epistane might be too dry on the joints. Both are anti-estrogenic.

For a first time cycler, and possibly even several cycles in, I would typically recommend only one compound because until you know how that compound acts on its own in your body, you would be hard pressed to determine what effects are from what compound.

KGPL
04-08-2014, 03:48 PM
I think epiandro plus epistane might be too dry on the joints. Both are anti-estrogenic.

For a first time cycler, and possibly even several cycles in, I would typically recommend only one compound because until you know how that compound acts on its own in your body, you would be hard pressed to determine what effects are from what compound.

Makes sense. I just wasn't sure as it seems like people seem to stack them with test often, which is a no go for me.




http://i58.tinypic.com/178dbc.png
http://i61.tinypic.com/29fe4aa.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/28khb1j.jpg


EDIT
These pictures came out smaller than I thought, but oh well, gives you an idea where I'm at. Huge lats, tiny chest. Feels bad :(

KGPL
04-08-2014, 03:52 PM
So If I were to use epistane, liver support a bit before, then:

Epistane
20/30/40/40/40
40/40/20/20 nolva

Or


Epi andro RX
4/5/5/6/6/6

PCT with nolva?


With my goals, should I be eating at maintenance to still get cut up or just above?

weekend
04-08-2014, 04:17 PM
How did those lats happen wtf

KGPL
04-08-2014, 04:19 PM
How did those lats happen wtf

No clue. That's with a pump and overhead lighting though. From day one in the gym, I've had a perfect mental connection with my back in general. It doesn't hurt that I also spend 3+ hours on back alone...

Trade you some lats for some chest? Deal? :D

35" waist crew checking in. Thank you back for making this appear small. I normally wear a sweatshirt to the gym, but the one time I wore a stringer on back day I was accused of hardcore juicing by all the regulars. Pretty mentally satisfying.

burlyman30
04-08-2014, 04:57 PM
Pics are reminiscent of a younger me, with lats to spare but lacking in the "beach muscles". Time and patience, Grasshopper. It will come. ;)

KGPL
04-08-2014, 04:59 PM
^Yep. I'm patient, just looking to explore other options to get as cut as possible without compromising health. At the very least, I believe have a great foundation for bodybuilding in general. I'm not trying to come off cocky or anything, but having wide shoulders and a big rib cage from the start is always a plus. At least I haven't had a problem packing on some size :D

It's amazing how much hard work, proper nutrition, and dedication can bring. I wish I had pictures of myself at 270lbs when I was 15...

SoCal-Nutrition
04-08-2014, 05:13 PM
wow, some impressive pics there...great work!

sounds like you have quite the transformation, very inspirational :cool:

burlyman30
04-08-2014, 05:28 PM
I'm not trying to come off cocky or anything, but having wide shoulders and a big rib cage from the start is always a plus.

Lucky you! Narrow shoulders and small ribcage did me no favors in competition. You have a great frame to build upon.




At least I haven't had a problem packing on some size :D

Glad to hear it, but statements like this lead me to believe that anabolic should wait a little while yet.




It's amazing how much hard work, proper nutrition, and dedication can bring. I wish I had pictures of myself at 270lbs when I was 15...

If you come across any, they would be cool to see!

KGPL
04-08-2014, 05:50 PM
Lucky you! Narrow shoulders and small ribcage did me no favors in competition. You have a great frame to build upon.



Glad to hear it, but statements like this lead me to believe that anabolic should wait a little while yet.



If you come across any, they would be cool to see!

Well, the lifts have stalled, but that's to be expected at the point I'm at. I'm also doing a very slow cut right now to keep as much strength as possible or hopefully build some.

I just meant size in general, I cut down to 160, bulked to 180, cut to 170, bulked to 200, cut to 180, then bulked to 220 and cut down to where I am now. Packed on some incredible size in the process, but that's going to happen with that much weight fluctuation and lifting heavy. Lately, I've been implementing some chain/band work to work on weak spots of the main lifts which should bring me some results in the next couple months. As I mentioned before, I'm not completely set on PH's yet, but just exploring.


Any real differences between epistane from IBE or olympus labs besides the mg? Came across both companies when looking up logs and they all have positive comments.

nate3993
04-08-2014, 05:57 PM
dam. nice bod.

burlyman30
04-08-2014, 07:35 PM
dam. nice bod.

KG, meet Nate. Lol

nate3993
04-08-2014, 10:24 PM
I bet he's got a cute face too ;)

KGPL
04-09-2014, 03:45 PM
I bet he's got a cute face too ;)

;)


For anyone looking for a brutal way to end a shoulder day, grab a set of dumbells and go for 50 reps of lateral raises. The last 20 or so, don't worry about bringing them all the way up, but still in control with tension on the shoulders.

- - - Updated - - -

For the epi andro, it doesn't appear to convert to estrogen. Is PCT still needed for this? I'm slightly confused as it is a completely different style of compound.

burlyman30
04-09-2014, 04:01 PM
;)

For the epi andro, it doesn't appear to convert to estrogen. Is PCT still needed for this? I'm slightly confused as it is a completely different style of compound.

Epiandrosterone converts to DHT, which is an estrogen antagonist.

There has been much discussion on this forum in the past regarding the level of suppressiveness of this compound.

Best course of action is to use a pct, though it may not have to be quite as comprehensive as you would need with a more suppressive compound.

KGPL
04-09-2014, 04:07 PM
Epiandrosterone converts to DHT, which is an estrogen antagonist.

There has been much discussion on this forum in the past regarding the level of suppressiveness of this compound.

Best course of action is to use a pct, though it may not have to be quite as comprehensive as you would need with a more suppressive compound.

Makes sense. Sounds like this is the safest route that would still provide some decent results. Am I certain on use yet? No, but it's good to know what direction I would take if I do go through with this.

Would OTC PCT would be enough ? Something like PES erase pro and a test booster should suffice?

burlyman30
04-09-2014, 04:15 PM
I would say yes on the OTC pct.

KGPL
04-09-2014, 05:38 PM
Would training vary at all on cycle? I typically hit everything from every angle possible, got this idea from Frank Mcgrath. If I'm in the gym, I might as well destroy myself. Compound based, then slowly move down to more fine isolation movements progressively at the end of the workout. Multiple hours for each workout.

Example:
Deadlifts
barbell rows/dumbell rows
Weighted pullups
pullups
Lat pulldowns
Cable rows
machines
straight arm pulldowns
etc.


Nutrition wise, would I be better off increasing cals or eat at maintenance/slightly below to get cut up?

Jelisej
04-09-2014, 07:50 PM
Bro', I would strongly advise you to abandon your cycle as you are still too young, mathematically speaking - risks outweight benefits. And I see no need for it as your physique is impressive.

KGPL
04-09-2014, 08:02 PM
Bro', I would strongly advise you to abandon your cycle as you are still too young, mathematically speaking - risks outweight benefits. And I see no need for it as your physique is impressive.

Not set in stone yet, just researching to understand more on specifics. So many different compounds out there that I want to be able to use what info im learning here to search around for logs, ages, side effects, etc all over the Internet. Believe me though, I'm highly concerned about the risks. If I wasn't, I'd be just like every other 18 yearold who just hops on a cycle with no knowledge or plans. Definitely don't want to be like that.


As a side note, I know this is a longshot, but are there any products out there that can shrink pre existing gyno? Google searches lead me with the same things over and over, which clearly aren't accurate.

Jelisej
04-09-2014, 08:25 PM
Are there any products out there that can shrink pre existing gyno? Only way to get rid of gyno 100 % is to operate and remove gland itself, which is probably safest but bit pricey- I saw price of 3000 $ other day.
There are other ways- like using DHT derivative- but then that would be same as cycle- so thats not an option in your case (IMO), and some other guys using some combinatiojn of SERM and AI for a while , which obliterates their E2 which is not good thing- as when E2 goes low it weakens bones (If I remeber correctly body starts taking calcium from bones)- anyway that can lead to problems in future (bone fractures, weak spine etc...).

KGPL
04-10-2014, 06:42 PM
Today I talked to someone around my age at the gym that ran a couple cycles of prohormones. They surprisingly opened up about it and had a similar opinion regarding the "addiction" it becomes. He's addicted to the gains on cycle, which is the only reason why he ran more.

As for side effects, he seemed to be pretty smart. Only thing he said that went "wrong" were some pretty serious acne breakouts on his back, but he was able to keep these under control with sun exposure and multiple baths (I think he used salt?).

nate3993
04-10-2014, 07:02 PM
Acne on cycle is generally one of 2 things. Either your predisposed to breaking out.....or estrogen isn't in check. I know for myself, as long as I have my estro in check, I get little to no acne.

KGPL
04-11-2014, 07:31 AM
Did more research. To be as safe as possible, this is what I came up with. Will give it some time to decide how my gains are while implementing band work into my training, but this is just the theoretical cycle.

Fish oil
-3 caps a day

Creatine
-5g a day as usual

Mutivitamin
-once a day

Iron labs cycle support
-4 caps a day starting a week before cycle, continue throughout cycle.

-IronMagLabs Epi andro rx
4/5/5/6/6/6(should I add another week to "taper" off with a lower dose)

-Erase pro
1 cap a day, starting 3 days before ending cycle. Continue for 3-4 weeks

-PES test booster
Use throughout PCT

-ZMA
use throughout pct

So here, my "pct" would last 3-4 weeks. Should it go longer?

Calories would be around maintenance, focusing on hitting ~250g protein a day, carbs pre workout, and lots of fat from fish sources like salmon. Being lacrose intolerant and intolerant to gluten, I'll be sure to completely eliminate them.

Does dosing timing matter? Obviously in the morning, but should it be taken pre or post workout for the second dose?

tallstraw
04-15-2014, 05:36 AM
Did more research. To be as safe as possible, this is what I came up with. Will give it some time to decide how my gains are while implementing band work into my training, but this is just the theoretical cycle.

Fish oil
-3 caps a day

Creatine
-5g a day as usual(I'd save this for PCT)

Mutivitamin
-once a day

Iron labs cycle support
-4 caps a day starting a week before cycle, continue throughout cycle.

-IronMagLabs Epi andro rx
4/5/5/6/6/6(should I add another week to "taper" off with a lower dose)

-Erase pro
1 cap a day, starting 3 days before ending cycle. Continue for 3-4 weeks

-PES test booster
Use throughout PCT

-ZMA
use throughout pct

So here, my "pct" would last 3-4 weeks. Should it go longer?

Calories would be around maintenance, focusing on hitting ~250g protein a day, carbs pre workout, and lots of fat from fish sources like salmon. Being lacrose intolerant and intolerant to gluten, I'll be sure to completely eliminate them.

Does dosing timing matter? Obviously in the morning, but should it be taken pre or post workout for the second dose?

Great physique man.

weekend
04-15-2014, 02:19 PM
this looks good man

you'll be fine with what you have laid out

i would grab some tococaps and some resveratrol supplement

that shit always worked well for me

KGPL
04-15-2014, 03:45 PM
this looks good man

you'll be fine with what you have laid out

i would grab some tococaps and some resveratrol supplement

that shit always worked well for me


I really hope I don't regret this later, but I believe I'm going to go through with this cycle.

How do tococaps compare to nizoral?


How do I time the Epiandro in regards to working out? I lift around 3:00. First dose at 6AM, second at 1:30? Or just do it post workout?

ctAL
04-15-2014, 08:49 PM
good luck OP............i turn 29 next may an im still a pussy to PH and AAS ive only ran AH v3 from primordial performance which is why i know about this forum/am a member...........i love the knowledge here

ill see how your run goes first, i have gyno from puberty also, ive built my physique so much over the years its not even noticed by other people or bothers me like that anymore

its amazing how far ive come from HS days im big and lean an strong im kinda bored of bein natty though

btw you look AWESOME for 18.5. everyone has a weak point bro remember that.......just work harder at it

KGPL
04-21-2014, 06:59 AM
Here's the official cycle I officially plan on taking.

Will be taking fish oil, creatine, and a multi as usual.

1 Week Before Cycle:
Iron labs liver support- 2 caps a day

Cycle
PN Epi Andro
2/3/3/3/3/3
Erase Pro
0/0/0/0/1/1
Nizoral: Once every 3 days
Iron Labs Cycle support
2/2/2/2/2/2 (Raise if blood pressure goes out of whack)
DS Lean Xtreme
2/2/2/2/2/2

PCT
Erase Pro 1/1/1/1
Vital Labs 3x PCT 4/4/4/4/2
Nizoral: Every 3 days


I might run a test booster in PCT, but I doubt I'll need to. How does this look? Sticking to OTC PCT.

I tossed the Lean Xtreme in because of how much I love it. Really sheds off some water weight, bringing out the vascularity even more so. Should I use this on cycle or in PCT though?

ctAL
04-22-2014, 01:00 PM
epi andro solo at those numbers seems like a waste of time........from what i gather

am i understand this correct?

PN Epi Andro
2/3/3/3/3/3

is that pills per day?? or you mean multiply x 2?

so 4/6/6/6/6/6

KGPL
04-22-2014, 03:19 PM
epi andro solo at those numbers seems like a waste of time........from what i gather

am i understand this correct?

PN Epi Andro
2/3/3/3/3/3

is that pills per day?? or you mean multiply x 2?

so 4/6/6/6/6/6

It's the PN epiandro, twice the dosage of the IML version.

2 each day the first week, then three for the next five weeks.

Scope75
04-22-2014, 04:21 PM
That's the way I dosed it and I'm still enjoying it at 6/300mg ed.
If you have enough I'd do 8wks.

KGPL
04-22-2014, 04:36 PM
That's the way I dosed it and I'm still enjoying it at 6/300mg ed.
If you have enough I'd do 8wks.


I was going to stick to six, but I can up it if I don't experience any sides. I'll need to snag another bottle of cycle support too.

KGPL
04-22-2014, 07:10 PM
Still trying to solidify my pct. Instead of a test booster and erase, should I run formeron? Test boosters are garbage, we all know that...

markam
04-23-2014, 01:57 AM
Still trying to solidify my pct. Instead of a test booster and erase, should I run formeron? Test boosters are garbage, we all know that...

1) bioforge v3, testforce 2, intimidate, bulbine (dosed correctly, google (Russian star bulbine) are Legit. BPS Endosurge (nettle, l-dopa, vit D) works really well at a reduced dose of 2 caps ed instead of 6' and the bottle contains 180 caps! LGI rehab contains Erase and other goodies.
2) formeron is suppressive at a decent dose, IMO, and best kept away from PCT and DHT compounds (on cycle).

If you can't get aromasin (exemestane), erase is the next best choice IMO.

The right Test boosters are def legit. Anabeta warrants a mention,also.

ctAL
04-25-2014, 05:42 AM
this looks good man

you'll be fine with what you have laid out

i would grab some tococaps and some resveratrol supplement

that shit always worked well for me

o yea?

i kinda wanna try wicked supplements res 100 x tococaps

the price though..........

KGPL
04-25-2014, 03:53 PM
Adjusted the cycle again. I am going to be fully backed by a doctor while doing this. Didn't like the idea, but said he will stand behind me with whatever route I take and make sure everything goes smoothly. I guess helps that I've been going to him since I was young and he has seen my transformation over the years. It's a nice thing that I won't be flying solo on this.

No more OTC PCT.


Running 6 weeks of Epiandro and 4-5 weeks of halo extreme.

PN Epiandro
2/3/3/3/3/3

Halo Extreme
0/2/3/3/3/3

One cap of erase pro every other day on cycle, high amounts of cycle support, and fish oil. Nizoral every 3 days.

Nolva 20mg for 3 weeks, more if needed. Thinking about prolonging this to kill off my gyno that I've had since a young age.

Bioforge in the last week of PCT


Let the gains begin

KGPL
04-25-2014, 05:13 PM
As a side note, I'm extremely excited to see the recomp effect and strength increase. HOPEFULLY I can finally shoulder press those 100's. Been so tempting, but haven't ever been able to get that high.

I will be eating consistently throughout the day, just slightly above maintenance.

VayneZ
04-25-2014, 06:42 PM
forgive me for being a bit late but... AWESOME lats bruh!
When will you be starting the run? And how much are you shoulder pressing now?

KGPL
04-25-2014, 07:32 PM
I'm pretty much set in stone on the halo. Do I expect crazy results? No. I'm hoping to dry out and increase strength. I haven't done enough research on the mecha to even consider it an option. Been going over logs on the epi andro and halo for a while and decided since I have a doctor backing me now, I might as well add the halo in.

I was going to use erase pro for the sake of less pills to hopefully keep any unwanted estrogen at bay. Pct will be extended.

As for the epiandro, I went with the PN over IML because it's double the strength. Doesn't have the pepper in it though. Hopefully that doesn't affect it negatively.



I like to say I'm shoulder pressing the 90's, but its rough. I can get 85's solo for clean reps, but the 90's are ridiculously hard for me, even with assistance on the first rep. Can't get them consistently.

I'm a big fan of dumbell over barbell work. I know it will vary based on diet and genetics, but what should I realistically be expecting strength wise? One log I saw reported pressing 20lbs more per dumbell on flat bench for reps.

Hopefully starting in a week, but it depends on shipping. Just started my cycle support.

VayneZ
04-25-2014, 09:03 PM
I like to say I'm shoulder pressing the 90's, but its rough. I can get 85's solo for clean reps, but the 90's are ridiculously hard for me, even with assistance on the first rep. Can't get them consistently.

I'm a big fan of dumbell over barbell work. I know it will vary based on diet and genetics, but what should I realistically be expecting strength wise? One log I saw reported pressing 20lbs more per dumbell on flat bench for reps.

Hopefully starting in a week, but it depends on shipping. Just started my cycle support.

For 18, 85's solo is really outstanding bro and way above what most 18 year old would shoulder press!! Last year before I started leaning out I repped out 100's solo and 110's with a spotter... Now I'm stuck at 90's but with a lot of difficulties... 30 pounds lighter in weight @ lower than 170 right now. But then again, I'm 26.... When I was 18 I was nowhere NEAR where you are. You have a lot of potential bro.

I'll be following your log my friend! ;)

burlyman30
04-26-2014, 01:32 AM
In have a suggestion. Skip the erase pro. Halodrol does not aromatize estrogen, so epiandro (a dht precursor) will dry you out plenty and harden you up. Erase on top of the epiandro could unlubricate the joints and there is simply no need for this.

Halodrol... it takes 3 weeks to really kick in so 4 weeks is a waste, and in my mind, 6+ is optimal. I have run it many many times. Week 3 things start "happening". You'll see what I mean when you get there.

KGPL
04-26-2014, 04:41 AM
In have a suggestion. Skip the erase pro. Halodrol does not aromatize estrogen, so epiandro (a dht precursor) will dry you out plenty and harden you up. Erase on top of the epiandro could unlubricate the joints and there is simply no need for this.

Halodrol... it takes 3 weeks to really kick in so 4 weeks is a waste, and in my mind, 6+ is optimal. I have run it many many times. Week 3 things start "happening". You'll see what I mean when you get there.

Should I run it for 5 instead? I was trying to keep it shorter since that's definitely the harsher compound.

As for the erase, I'll keep it on hand in case my body increases its estrogen production, but won't use it unless needed. Keeping estrogen low will also minimize acne, correct?


I appreciate all the advice.

KGPL
04-26-2014, 08:27 AM
For 18, 85's solo is really outstanding bro and way above what most 18 year old would shoulder press!! Last year before I started leaning out I repped out 100's solo and 110's with a spotter... Now I'm stuck at 90's but with a lot of difficulties... 30 pounds lighter in weight @ lower than 170 right now. But then again, I'm 26.... When I was 18 I was nowhere NEAR where you are. You have a lot of potential bro.

I'll be following your log my friend! ;)

90's at 170 is insane.

Made me feel pretty bad when I saw a guy around my weight pressing 315 on seated barbell shoulder press....

Still can't make up my mind on the diet aspect. Part of me wants to pound down the calories to get as big and strong as possible, but then I will regret it later when I have to cut again.... Seems like I'm always cutting because of how fast I pack on the fat when bulking.

On the other end of the spectrum, I definitely don't want to eat minimal calories and just waste a cycle. If I eat 200 or so above maintenance, I should still lean out and get all kinds of vascularity/striations at the end, correct?



As a side note about the strength, I trained at the same gym antoine vaillant and a couple other monsters a little while ago and adapted a similar training style. If anyone thinks he or any of the pro's actually lifts like all the articles about them, they are crazy. WAY more volume. Ever since I've been using this method, I've packed on some wild strength. long warmup, couple sets of low reps with stupid heavy weight, couple sets with heavy weight/clean form focusing on time under tension, then finally a couple sets of high reps/lower weight to complete failure. After all this, move on to the next exercise.

markam
04-27-2014, 08:31 AM
Growth Plates.

Not sure on the validity of this, but I'd def advise to wait until at least 21 yrs old before using AAS.


Femur:
The 3 epiphyses/growth plates at upper end fuse at 18years
The 1 epiphysis/growth plate at lower end fuse at 20 years

Tibia:
Upper end fuses at 16-18 years
Lower end fuses at 15-17 years

Humerus:
Upper end during 20th year
Lower end at about 16 years

Radius:
Upper end during 18th year
Lower end at 20 years

Take care!

KGPL
04-27-2014, 05:20 PM
Growth Plates.

Not sure on the validity of this, but I'd def advise to wait until at least 21 yrs old before using AAS.


Femur:
The 3 epiphyses/growth plates at upper end fuse at 18years
The 1 epiphysis/growth plate at lower end fuse at 20 years

Tibia:
Upper end fuses at 16-18 years
Lower end fuses at 15-17 years

Humerus:
Upper end during 20th year
Lower end at about 16 years

Radius:
Upper end during 18th year
Lower end at 20 years

Take care!


I saw these exact stats before. This is just one of the multiple reasons why I was so apprehensive to start the cycle. It's a risk, but I think I'm doing this as smart as I can and am being monitored by a doctor the whole time.




As a side note, I decided to eat all the junk foods I've been craving this weekend to get them out of my system. Upping the cardio to 30 minutes a session from here on out until the end of my cycle. Also got a new training partner. He wasn't able to train consistently for a while due to a job, but he's back in it 100% now. Going to use each other to push ourselves beyond failure each and every day. Should be some excellent results, I'll start a log when it begins.

KGPL
06-19-2014, 05:43 PM
Playing around with the idea of running it again....

I have some compounds on hand, but I can easily flip these and do something else. Want to run a 4-6 week cut cycle. Epistane perhaps?

Jelisej
06-19-2014, 06:20 PM
Playing around with the idea of running it again....

I have some compounds on hand, but I can easily flip these and do something else. Want to run a 4-6 week cut cycle. Epistane perhaps?

I would suggest you not to do it, if you have to do it than go with testosterone as main player. IMO, testosterone is one of safest of all compounds, if not safest.
You may also add masteron.

But, best would be to wait.

KGPL
06-19-2014, 06:24 PM
I would suggest you not to do it, if you have to do it than go with testosterone as main player. IMO, testosterone is one of safest of all compounds, if not safest.
You may also add masteron.

But, best would be to wait.

I know it would be best to wait, but the back of my mind knows I'll end up cycling next year, and I'd rather just do it now when I have access to better nutrition (homemade foods, not just dining halls). I'd also end up getting bunk gear probably with my luck.


I can't bring myself to pin now. Proviron instead perhaps? Oral trest+epitren?

Jelisej
06-19-2014, 06:50 PM
I know it would be best to wait, but the back of my mind knows I'll end up cycling next year, and I'd rather just do it now when I have access to better nutrition (homemade foods, not just dining halls). I'd also end up getting bunk gear probably with my luck.
I can't bring myself to pin now. Proviron instead perhaps? Oral trest+epitren?

If you cant pin, it means you're not ready yet, IMO. Prohormones IMO are not worth it, and actually sides are usually worse than with testosterone, injecting yourself is not as bad as it seems, its bit weird first time to do it, somehow its difficult to "stab" yourself but once you do it its piece of cake.

You know, once you start with cycling- usually is no way out, and other thing is, before you go- you need to accept possibility that you may not recover.
Most people do recover, but not all. And from my observations- general trend is that testosterone level slowly diminish with time.
I may sound as hypocrite as I do mess with my own hormones- but I done it only after my hormone levels were in drain, otherwise I would never do it. Honestly.

KGPL
06-19-2014, 07:18 PM
^ I'm not so sure about the not pinning=not ready, but I can see where you're coming from with that.


That's my concern on there being no way out. It's addicting to see yourself change so quickly and nobody can resist it. One cycle leads to another. I don't think the single cycle would have any negative results, but it's the repetition of them.

At the end of the day, I'm the only one that can make the final decision. I just can't decide.

Jelisej
06-19-2014, 07:33 PM
^ I'm not so sure about the not pinning=not ready, but I can see where you're coming from with that.
That's my concern on there being no way out. It's addicting to see yourself change so quickly and nobody can resist it. One cycle leads to another. I don't think the single cycle would have any negative results, but it's the repetition of them.
At the end of the day, I'm the only one that can make the final decision. I just can't decide.

Very good post, and indeed it is your choice.

KGPL
06-19-2014, 07:53 PM
I already have cycles planned out, an understanding of compounds, and have done plenty of research. The only step from here it to make the actual choice.

The only thing holding me back is the long term effects. I've seen plenty of logs/ have personal experiences with those who have done it right, wrong, and at various ages, but I've never actually read anyone's opinion on it 5-10 years later with the negative effects. Ideally, I'd like to find a log where someone took them at 17-20 years old and reported back later. Has anyone seen anything like this?

KGPL
06-20-2014, 05:29 AM
Another thing that's noteworthy is that If I cycle now, I will be close to the doctor who has known me my entire life and already decided to support me no matter what decision I make here. If I wait, I'll have no actual support.

Turbo6GN
06-21-2014, 02:37 AM
Here is another noteworthy thing to consider, and I think/hope I'll get some support for this viewpoint: You seem like a smart and articulate young guy, obviously very strong and well put together for your age. Here is the simple truth: you are setting yourself up for a life of dependence on AAS/PH's. If/when you run your first cycle no matter how mild you will blow up like a tick, especially with your diet and training. You will be accused of juicing by all the guys at your gym and they will be 75% correct. You will never again be satisfied with natty training and will live your life cycle to cycle, growing weary of PH's and graduating to AAS. Having to rely on SERM's and AI's at such a young age is really quite a shame regardless of what any doctor says. I think most of us wish we had your drive and dedication at 18 and want you to make a smart decision. Fuck, I wish I still got random boners 10 times a day and could send a harpoon of jizz across a football field...

You dont have to go very far to find all kinds of "advice" and people who will guide you thru every step of the process. You have received great advice here from some very smart guys who would not steer you wrong. Having said all of this I think you need to be patient. Spend an hour browsing some of the other forums. You are twice the size of most of the clowns who gobble PH's and talk about their sick gains. It's a very slippery slope and I can tell you I'm fighting the temptation to run a summer cycle right now. I hate the feeling of being shut down and subsequent recovery, I had a gyno scare on my last cycle despite running a SERM/AI and it scared the shit out of me. Despite all that I want to be bigger then I am now, for no discernable reason. It's a complete mind fuck, don't let anyone tell you different. 18 is a pretty tender age to start a journey with no end in sight. Just my thoughts, perhaps I'm about to get flamed but I think this is worth mentioning.

KGPL
06-21-2014, 05:09 AM
Here is another noteworthy thing to consider, and I think/hope I'll get some support for this viewpoint: You seem like a smart and articulate young guy, obviously very strong and well put together for your age. Here is the simple truth: you are setting yourself up for a life of dependence on AAS/PH's. If/when you run your first cycle no matter how mild you will blow up like a tick, especially with your diet and training. You will be accused of juicing by all the guys at your gym and they will be 75% correct. You will never again be satisfied with natty training and will live your life cycle to cycle, growing weary of PH's and graduating to AAS. Having to rely on SERM's and AI's at such a young age is really quite a shame regardless of what any doctor says. I think most of us wish we had your drive and dedication at 18 and want you to make a smart decision. Fuck, I wish I still got random boners 10 times a day and could send a harpoon of jizz across a football field...

You dont have to go very far to find all kinds of "advice" and people who will guide you thru every step of the process. You have received great advice here from some very smart guys who would not steer you wrong. Having said all of this I think you need to be patient. Spend an hour browsing some of the other forums. You are twice the size of most of the clowns who gobble PH's and talk about their sick gains. It's a very slippery slope and I can tell you I'm fighting the temptation to run a summer cycle right now. I hate the feeling of being shut down and subsequent recovery, I had a gyno scare on my last cycle despite running a SERM/AI and it scared the shit out of me. Despite all that I want to be bigger then I am now, for no discernable reason. It's a complete mind fuck, don't let anyone tell you different. 18 is a pretty tender age to start a journey with no end in sight. Just my thoughts, perhaps I'm about to get flamed but I think this is worth mentioning.

Why would you get flamed for it? It's a very down to earth post with lots of quality info. I know that if I do cycle, there's no end in site and it will continue, that's part of the reason why I'm apprehensive. More cycles=more chance for things to go wrong. I'm telling myself no for now, but if I can't be happy in the next few months I'll just man up and pin in order to get the best/safest results.

EDIT

Thinking twice about this again... I'll go get my hormones checked and decide from there. If it's ridiculously high, I'll stay that way. If it's low, I'll reconsider and might just cycle. Obviously, I can't tell what it's at right now. The fact that I have had gyno my whole life and was obese makes me think it will be on the lower end, but nothing too bad since I am making gains.

If I do this, do I go on a low dose of something mild for 6 weeks or just hit it and quit it for 4 with something more harsh? I'll get shut down either way, so does it really matter?