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Cdsnuts
05-10-2014, 08:36 AM
Anyone have experience with this?

Alpha Hard (http://www.forerunnerlabs.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=7275)

ExtraZeus
05-10-2014, 03:47 PM
Looks interesting. It would be nice to know how much epiandro and androsterone are actually in each serving. I hate "prop blends".

ryhigh
05-10-2014, 05:12 PM
Have you looked into Mestebol? I know its a lot stronger but have read amazing reviews

Cdsnuts
05-11-2014, 05:22 AM
Looks interesting. It would be nice to know how much epiandro and androsterone are actually in each serving. I hate "prop blends".

Well the ingredients are the exact same as AHv3 and we know the total between the two of them are 1500mg. AHv3 had a total of 1200mg.

The dosing instructions are a little weird though : As a dietary supplement, take 3 Bio-Tabs in the AM (1 per hour) 3 Bio-Tabs in the PM. Take with meals. What's the whole "one per hour" thing?

The count is 168 per bottle too, just like AH....

BBG
05-11-2014, 06:28 AM
Technically, though, it's not 1500mg of Androsterone/Epiandrosterone.

There first ingredient in the list under the Prop blend is Agmatine:

1164

So that means they could have put any amount of agmatine in the blend... let's so even 1 gram. That would only leave 500mg for the andro/epiandro.

Agmatine is also relatively cheap (you can get 90 caps x 250mg for $20) so who knows how much they put in.

WesleyInman
05-11-2014, 09:57 AM
I have taken their 5 alpha test, which is epi andro..under the tongue..same thing..the exact amount of epi andro was not listed.

It was legit for a fact, but it was weak.much weaker then other epi andro products on the market. I wonder if this product is simply the same way?

ryhigh
05-11-2014, 10:00 AM
A prop blend in a hormonal supplement throws up a caution sign for me... No reason for that unless IMO significantly under dosed


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O_RYAN_007
05-11-2014, 10:02 AM
F prop blends!

ryhigh
05-11-2014, 10:03 AM
Yeah!!!!


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BBG
05-11-2014, 11:55 AM
I have taken their 5 alpha test, which is epi andro..under the tongue..same thing..the exact amount of epi andro was not listed.

It was legit for a fact, but it was weak.much weaker then other epi andro products on the market. I wonder if this product is simply the same way?

Yeah man, I'd have to say that if they're going to hide behind a Prop blend, and we know that the first listed ingredient is always highest dosed, IE, lots of Agmatine...

Might as well go with our other options.

IN STOCK! Epi Andro Hard by Prescription Nutrition (epi andro/stanolone/dht) (http://stores.gymntonic.com/in-stock-epi-andro-hard-by-prescription-nutrition-epi-andro-stanolone-dht-1-seller-on-gymntonic-com/)
Epi Andro RX by Iron Mag Labs - GymNTonic.com (http://stores.gymntonic.com/epi-andro-rx-by-iron-mag-labs/)

I'd try one of these but I get free product from Celtic and can't justify the cost just to see if it reminds me of Androhard lol But from what I've seen, they are legit...

Cdsnuts
05-11-2014, 02:34 PM
I have an email out to them to see if they'll disclose the break down.

ryhigh
05-11-2014, 02:35 PM
I have an email out to them to see if they'll disclose the break down.

Interested in their reply


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Cdsnuts
05-11-2014, 03:32 PM
Interested in their reply


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Will certainly post it here.

On a side note...has anyone ever mentioned lethargy from Epi-Andro hard/rx?

ryhigh
05-11-2014, 03:34 PM
[Q UOTE=Cdsnuts;36282]Will certainly post it here.

On a side note...has anyone ever mentioned lethargy from Epi-Andro hard/rx?[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure I have seen a couple report lethargy from pretty high doses of Epi-andro, I'll see if I can find it.

I know some report the same with Mestebol, I guess too much DHT for some doesn't react well



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Cdsnuts
05-11-2014, 03:35 PM
Technically, though, it's not 1500mg of Androsterone/Epiandrosterone.

There first ingredient in the list under the Prop blend is Agmatine:

1164

So that means they could have put any amount of agmatine in the blend... let's so even 1 gram. That would only leave 500mg for the andro/epiandro.

Agmatine is also relatively cheap (you can get 90 caps x 250mg for $20) so who knows how much they put in.

I'm not familiar with Agmatine, but maybe that's why they recommend the dosing scheme they do? Maybe there is alot of that stuff in there and they don't want you taking three caps at once. I think dosing one per hour for three hours in the a.m. and then the same in the p.m. would be annoying.

ryhigh
05-11-2014, 03:38 PM
I'm not familiar with Agmatine, but maybe that's why they recommend the dosing scheme they do? Maybe there is alot of that stuff in there and they don't want you taking three caps at once. I think dosing one per hour for three hours in the a.m. and then the same in the p.m. would be annoying.

Agmatine is just an amino acid, it's the decarboxylation product of arginine, not clear on why it's added in there


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Cdsnuts
05-11-2014, 03:47 PM
New ForeRunner Labs Product and Reformulations - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 2 (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/company-promotions/245962-new-forerunner-labs-2.html)

As per this thread, the company is not releasing the ratio's of actives. I'm pretty sure this dude is a forum member here...

ryhigh
05-11-2014, 03:53 PM
Yeah I cant think of who... Isnt Forerunner part of/affiliated with another hormone company? I want to say yes, that's how they got have some credit... Idk I don't understand why ratio's are kept secret from consumers.

BBG
05-11-2014, 04:20 PM
Agmatine is just an amino acid, it's the decarboxylation product of arginine, not clear on why it's added in there

If I guessed, it's because it potentially could increase quality of erections and make people more vascular/pumped... sort of mimicking what DHT would do.

ryhigh
05-11-2014, 04:22 PM
If I guessed, it's because it potentially could increase quality of erections and make people more vascular/pumped... sort of mimicking what DHT would do.

Never even thought of that... Very interesting, thanks for that! So so you think it's to simulate the effects to mask small doses of the hormones? Or because they work in synergy?


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Cdsnuts
05-11-2014, 04:25 PM
Well whatever the reason, the dosing scheme is still ridiculous.

ryhigh
05-11-2014, 04:34 PM
At first I thought they added it just to add stuff like AndroFactory did, but BBG may be onto something else

ryhigh
05-11-2014, 05:08 PM
Well whatever the reason, the dosing scheme is still ridiculous.

Well good thing we have powders on the way, and know what and how much we'll be getting :cool:

Right Hook
05-14-2014, 10:58 AM
I have taken their 5 alpha test, which is epi andro..under the tongue..same thing..the exact amount of epi andro was not listed.

It was legit for a fact, but it was weak.much weaker then other epi andro products on the market. I wonder if this product is simply the same way?

I designed 5-Alpha Test and have said many times that it was a 25mg tablet of epiandrosterone plus 500mcg's of methylcobalamin.

Alpha Hard is not intended for under the tongue.


New ForeRunner Labs Product and Reformulations - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 2 (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/company-promotions/245962-new-forerunner-labs-2.html)

As per this thread, the company is not releasing the ratio's of actives. I'm pretty sure this dude is a forum member here...

Hai


Is anyone else selling a blend of both isomers? Last I checked this was the only product.

Cdsnuts
05-14-2014, 11:54 AM
Hai


Is anyone else selling a blend of both isomers? Last I checked this was the only product.

No...you are the only one selling both isomers, which is why I ordered a bottle to try. But I have to say, customer service at Forerunner is severely lacking. I have questions and I've emailed them a couple times and I have yet to hear back.

I want to know why it says to dose one pill per hour for three hours in the a.m. and then the same thing in the p.m? What is the point of dosing like that? Why can't they be taken all three at once in the a.m. and then again all three at once in the p.m? The way it is instructed seems cumbersome and a bit annoying to have to dose it that way. I asked this same thing in an email to customer service and to another email that I had found and I don't get a response?

Not too impressive thus far.

Right Hook
05-14-2014, 01:19 PM
junk email folder? Check there.

ryhigh
05-14-2014, 02:14 PM
junk email folder? Check there.

While you're around can you please explain the purpose of agmatine in it? I'm very curious


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Right Hook
05-14-2014, 02:57 PM
While you're around can you please explain the purpose of agmatine in it? I'm very curious


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For both an acute effect (Preworkout)as well as the overall benefits of agmatine supplementation.

J. Biol. Chem., 2014 vol. 289(14) pp. 9710-29
The molecular and metabolic influence of long term agmatine consumption
Nissim, I; Horyn, O; Daikhin, Y; Chen, P; Li, C; Wehrli, SL; Nissim, I; Yudkoff, M
Agmatine (AGM), a product of arginine decarboxylation, influences multiple physiologic and metabolic functions. However, the mechanism(s) of action, the impact on whole body gene expression and metabolic pathways, and the potential benefits and risks of long term AGM consumption are still a mystery. Here, we scrutinized the impact of AGM on whole body metabolic profiling and gene expression and assessed a plausible mechanism(s) of AGM action. Studies were performed in rats fed a high fat diet or standard chow. AGM was added to drinking water for 4 or 8 weeks. We used (13)C or (15)N tracers to assess metabolic reactions and fluxes and real time quantitative PCR to determine gene expression. The results demonstrate that AGM elevated the synthesis and tissue level of cAMP. Subsequently, AGM had a widespread impact on gene expression and metabolic profiling including (a) activation of peroxisomal proliferator-activated receptor-α and its coactivator, PGC1α, and (b) increased expression of peroxisomal proliferator-activated receptor-γ and genes regulating thermogenesis, gluconeogenesis, and carnitine biosynthesis and transport. The changes in gene expression were coupled with improved tissue and systemic levels of carnitine and short chain acylcarnitine, increased β-oxidation but diminished incomplete fatty acid oxidation, decreased fat but increased protein mass, and increased hepatic ureagenesis and gluconeogenesis but decreased glycolysis. These metabolic changes were coupled with reduced weight gain and a curtailment of the hormonal and metabolic derangements associated with high fat diet-induced obesity. The findings suggest that AGM elevated the synthesis and levels of cAMP, thereby mimicking the effects of caloric restriction with respect to metabolic reprogramming.

Cdsnuts
05-14-2014, 03:40 PM
junk email folder? Check there.

No. Just no response. I'm notified anytime an email is directed to my Junk Folder.

Can you answer the question for us? It's kind of blowing my mind that I purchased the product two days ago and I still can't get an answer.

ryhigh
05-14-2014, 05:31 PM
For both an acute effect (Preworkout)as well as the overall benefits of agmatine supplementation.

J. Biol. Chem., 2014 vol. 289(14) pp. 9710-29
The molecular and metabolic influence of long term agmatine consumption
Nissim, I; Horyn, O; Daikhin, Y; Chen, P; Li, C; Wehrli, SL; Nissim, I; Yudkoff, M
Agmatine (AGM), a product of arginine decarboxylation, influences multiple physiologic and metabolic functions. However, the mechanism(s) of action, the impact on whole body gene expression and metabolic pathways, and the potential benefits and risks of long term AGM consumption are still a mystery. Here, we scrutinized the impact of AGM on whole body metabolic profiling and gene expression and assessed a plausible mechanism(s) of AGM action. Studies were performed in rats fed a high fat diet or standard chow. AGM was added to drinking water for 4 or 8 weeks. We used (13)C or (15)N tracers to assess metabolic reactions and fluxes and real time quantitative PCR to determine gene expression. The results demonstrate that AGM elevated the synthesis and tissue level of cAMP. Subsequently, AGM had a widespread impact on gene expression and metabolic profiling including (a) activation of peroxisomal proliferator-activated receptor-α and its coactivator, PGC1α, and (b) increased expression of peroxisomal proliferator-activated receptor-γ and genes regulating thermogenesis, gluconeogenesis, and carnitine biosynthesis and transport. The changes in gene expression were coupled with improved tissue and systemic levels of carnitine and short chain acylcarnitine, increased β-oxidation but diminished incomplete fatty acid oxidation, decreased fat but increased protein mass, and increased hepatic ureagenesis and gluconeogenesis but decreased glycolysis. These metabolic changes were coupled with reduced weight gain and a curtailment of the hormonal and metabolic derangements associated with high fat diet-induced obesity. The findings suggest that AGM elevated the synthesis and levels of cAMP, thereby mimicking the effects of caloric restriction with respect to metabolic reprogramming.

Cool, thanks. I've never really seen it before so I was curious. I like agmatine and hormones just never tried them together lol


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Cdsnuts
05-15-2014, 12:32 PM
Still no response.

Cdsnuts
05-15-2014, 12:58 PM
This is how they list their phone number on the site:

Toll-Free: 800-555-555.

Interesting.

Also, here is a blurb:

"To help our customers achieve and exceed their potential we will provide the utmost customer responsibility and care. Forerunner Labs stands behind our products 100%. Have questions? Need assistance?

Contact us! We believe our ultimate responsibility is to you, the customerer."

ryhigh
05-15-2014, 01:43 PM
Lol sounds like a number that would be on a movie.. Actually wast it in Bruce Almighty?? Lol


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nate3993
05-15-2014, 02:25 PM
This is how they list their phone number on the site:

Toll-Free: 800-555-555.

Interesting.

Also, here is a blurb:

"To help our customers achieve and exceed their potential we will provide the utmost customer responsibility and care. Forerunner Labs stands behind our products 100%. Have questions? Need assistance?

Contact us! We believe our ultimate responsibility is to you, the customerer."



what a fukin joke. sorry right hook, but this shit is ridiculous.

when i click the contact us this email address opens on my mail app on my mac.

davidcannoy@yahoo.com

ryhigh
05-15-2014, 02:37 PM
what a fukin joke. sorry right hook, but this shit is ridiculous.

when i click the contact us this email address opens on my mail app on my mac.

davidcannoy@yahoo.com

Whos that?

nate3993
05-15-2014, 02:42 PM
i assume thats the person who does the info for fore runner. i click the contact link and my email app opens with that guys email in the send line

ryhigh
05-15-2014, 04:00 PM
Oh, I thought you knew. I'm sure there is certain circumstances, RH is a good dude and FRL has a good rep


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Cdsnuts
05-15-2014, 04:06 PM
Oh, I thought you knew. I'm sure there is certain circumstances, RH is a good dude and FRL has a good rep


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Not doubting he's a good dude.....so maybe he can show some goodness and answer my simple question in regards to why the dosing is the way it is? And Nate's right. It is ridiculous that I have to wait so long for an answer.

The other email I used was dc@advancedmusclescience.com. From the looks of it, it goes to the same person. Unless there is somebody else there with the same initials.

I also sent RH a pm yesterday around this time with those two emails I used and my question. Hoping he can shed some light.

I did get the product today though. If I knew how to post pictures I would. The bottle has a very strong likeness to the Androhard v3 bottle.....like almost exact. I still have AHv3 left and when side by side with the Alpha hard, it's very apparent they were mimicking it.

ryhigh
05-15-2014, 04:10 PM
Fair enough you did make a purchase, I forgot. Sorry Cdsnuts :(

Cdsnuts
05-15-2014, 04:29 PM
Another thing I just noticed....along with that dosing scheme (three tabs, one per hour for three hours in a.m, then the same for p.m.) It says to take with meals? Does that mean I have to have a meal every hour for three consecutive hours in the morning then again at night?

Strange.

markam
05-16-2014, 02:31 AM
Another thing I just noticed....along with that dosing scheme (three tabs, one per hour for three hours in a.m, then the same for p.m.) It says to take with meals? Does that mean I have to have a meal every hour for three consecutive hours in the morning then again at night?

Strange.

LOL.

Still, they managed to make the boxes and the names of the products really similar to PP. Kudos!

Shame the products aren't anywhere near as good as PP.

Right Hook
05-16-2014, 05:07 AM
1. DC owns the company. You are emailing the owner.

2. The dosing is messed up. I do t remember why it was labeled that way. He told me at the Arnold months ago. This is a new bottle and tablet system so the first run was small afaik. Dose 3 tabs Preworkout. Then the other 3 tabs 8 hours away, preferably with a meal.

3. DC helped Eric get into the prohormone game. Where do you think he got his ph's? Do you not remember Eric posting a thread on his forum thanking him? I could say more, but it's not a pretty ending as it wasn't just the consumers who were left high and dry.

hossam
05-16-2014, 05:26 AM
The owner of both Furrunner labs and Advanced Muscle science is the same person

David Cannoy

His facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/david.cannoy?fref=ts

and he is the only one responding to the emails
maybe that's why he is late in responding

markam
05-16-2014, 06:08 AM
3. DC helped Eric get into the prohormone game. Where do you think he got his ph's? Do you not remember Eric posting a thread on his forum thanking him? I could say more, but it's not a pretty ending as it wasn't just the consumers who were left high and dry.

Thanks for the info. Regarding the above, are you saying Eric was supplied ph's from D.C.? Also, are you intending to mean that Eric left D.C. and PP's customers high and dry? Just wanted to clarify this as your post encourages 'reading between the lines'.

Cdsnuts
05-16-2014, 09:51 AM
1. DC owns the company. You are emailing the owner.

2. The dosing is messed up. I do t remember why it was labeled that way. He told me at the Arnold months ago. This is a new bottle and tablet system so the first run was small afaik. Dose 3 tabs Preworkout. Then the other 3 tabs 8 hours away, preferably with a meal.

3. DC helped Eric get into the prohormone game. Where do you think he got his ph's? Do you not remember Eric posting a thread on his forum thanking him? I could say more, but it's not a pretty ending as it wasn't just the consumers who were left high and dry.

Thank you.

And as a side note, I love the feel of this stuff. Best thing that I've tried since AH, IMO.

Cdsnuts
05-16-2014, 10:55 AM
David got back to me. He was so nice I feel like a douche for getting all amped.......

This is what he said:

"Chris - I apologize for the lengthy delay. Our prop blend is as follows:

Epiandrosterone - 25 mg per tab
Androsterone - 25 mg per tab
Agmatine - 200 mgs

The hourly spacing is to ensure a more balanced dosing throughout the day. It Certainly will be ok to consume 3 in the AM and 3 in the PM together. Thanks again for your patience and support."

I'm wondering then, why the prop blend says 1500mg? The numbers don't add up. Six tabs would be 1200mg of agmatine and 600mg of actives.

testosteronet
05-16-2014, 01:12 PM
Check your math.
6 tablets:
1200mg Agmatine
150mg Androsterone
150mg Epiandrosterone
1500mg Total

Thanks for posting this info. I would've thought it would be 1000mg Agmatine and the rest good stuff with a higher epi number, but happy to see equal androsterone and epiandrosterone. Might have to try it out.

WesleyInman
05-16-2014, 01:17 PM
I designed 5-Alpha Test and have said many times that it was a 25mg tablet of epiandrosterone plus 500mcg's of methylcobalamin.

Alpha Hard is not intended for under the tongue.



Hai


Is anyone else selling a blend of both isomers? Last I checked this was the only product.

This seems like a very condescending reply to both of us. This is SS, not AM...everyone here is like family. No reason to talk down to anyone here. We all try to treat each other good, unlike any other forum.

Product is legit but is weak, why not make it stronger?? Too expensive? You say you have said many times, where?? I've never heard this before, however it is cool you are being honest about it here and now.

And the fact you are trying to replicate a product is awesome. I know myself and many others here love epiandro and everyone here likes Andro Hard..that's factual...so this is def something if strong enough I would be interested in trying as well :)

Thank you.

Cdsnuts
05-16-2014, 01:24 PM
Check your math.
6 tablets:
1200mg Agmatine
150mg Androsterone
150mg Epiandrosterone
1500mg Total

Thanks for posting this info. I would've thought it would be 1000mg Agmatine and the rest good stuff with a higher epi number, but happy to see equal androsterone and epiandrosterone. Might have to try it out.

Damnit.....you beat me to it. I was thinking this over in my head and realized I had posted incorrect information. I flew back to the computer to try and fix it......and I see this post.

I definitely feel better with androsterone in the mix...no doubt. It's like night and day for me.

That being said, 300mg sounds a bit underdosed. A half dose of AHv3 had 600mg of actives.

nate3993
05-17-2014, 11:51 AM
Why none of the grapefruit extract in it like the other forerunner products? It seems to be doing well with enhancing absorption

Right Hook
05-19-2014, 08:26 AM
This seems like a very condescending reply to both of us. This is SS, not AM...everyone here is like family. No reason to talk down to anyone here. We all try to treat each other good, unlike any other forum.

Product is legit but is weak, why not make it stronger?? Too expensive? You say you have said many times, where?? I've never heard this before, however it is cool you are being honest about it here and now.

And the fact you are trying to replicate a product is awesome. I know myself and many others here love epiandro and everyone here likes Andro Hard..that's factual...so this is def something if strong enough I would be interested in trying as well :)

Thank you.

Which product are you referring too? 5-Alpha Test? It's DQ'd so none of that matters.


Why none of the grapefruit extract in it like the other forerunner products? It seems to be doing well with enhancing absorption

Iirc there is no benefit to cyp3a4 inhibition with these two DHT precursors. Plus one major metabolite is a potent aromatase inhibitor so there's some benefit in letting it be.

Right Hook
05-19-2014, 08:27 AM
"DC'd" I meant.

Strong_Guy
08-09-2014, 01:30 PM
Thought I'd take a minute to give some feedback/review on this product. I'm just finishing up a six week run of this; been taking 4 tabs 3x/day (morning, midday, and night) which, according to previous posts here, should equal about 300 mg of each andro/epiandro per day. I kept it to just six weeks and just ran it solo because I wanted to get an idea on what it can do on its own and to see if it would be good in future cycles/stacks. Only other thing I took was AMS's augmentor with each dose, again something I never tried and wanted to give it a shot. A note on the augmentor, make sure you down it with plenty of liquid, you can get some downright gross burps with that stuff... I was super psyched to try this because it has the alpha isomer in it. I've never really gotten a whole lot out of epiandro and AHv2 was probably my favorite PP product while it lasted.

As far as the good and bad: It took three weeks exactly to really kick in. After the first couple weeks I was beginning to worry, but like clockwork, at the start of week three it kicked in. My strength went through the roof. Just to give a couple examples, I've really been trying to target my chest since I felt it was lagging for a while and I've increased my working weight (8-10 reps) on flat barbell bench from 225 to 245; while incline dumbbells have went from 75 lb dumbbells up to 90 lbs. Every other lift/bodypart, shoulders, back, legs, etc. has also seen at least some kind of decent increase. Regular pull-ups are another example, prior to this I could complete about three sets of 6-8 reps, now I am pulling 4 sets of about 10-12 which is pretty good for me. I don't really do maxing since I lift alone so I judge things by the most I can lift for the greatest amount of reps. Endurance is another factor I noticed; it did increase however so did the lethargy (which can be expected with androsterone) so I had to push through that initial drained feeling at the beginning of my workouts, but once I got going it was all good. The cost is also fairly reasonable, I searched around and was able to get three bottles for a little over $120.

On to my "gripes" though they are limited. I'm still not quite sure about this "bio-tab" thing. I went through three bottles of alpha hard, in every bottle about 1/4 of the bottle the tabs were broken. The tablets are extremely brittle. They mostly split exactly down the length of the tablet so I had a bunch of half-tabs, some however broke every which way so I had to mix match towards the end of the bottle to try and get consistent doses, it was just a little annoying more than anything. Also, the contents of the bottles were significantly chalky, like a lot. By the time I got to the end of the bottle, there was about a 1/2 teaspoon or so of just powder. I pretty sure it is from the agmatine but again it just seemed like a waste. My go to PCT for light cycles like this is Reboot and I noticed it has also gone to tablets instead of capsules but there is no breaking or powdery mess like with alpha hard.

Overall, this is a good product, I would just like to see the issue with the brittle tablets resolved or possibly go back to capsules, though I do know this is a cost thing. I would put it on par with AHv3 if dosed high enough. It's the only product out there (at least for now) with androsterone so that alone will probably have me returning. On a side note, it would be cool if one of the companies out there would come out with an androsterone only product that could be used for stacking, just a thought. I think it will do well to substitute in one of my all time favorite stacks of Dermacrine and AH.

Dragoninho
08-10-2014, 05:32 AM
Thank you for sharing!
Nice to see some kind of review of this product. And a good review as well.
//Drago