Pros/Cons of TRT

[weekend]

I am honestly thinking more and more lately that I would be happier and more successful on 200 mg/test for life.

My testosterone levels are high naturally. But I just know I feel better on exogenous testosterone.

22 years old. Would not do it until 23 at least...

I think I will want to do it by around 30.

It would give me so much more confidence, I feel like it would be amazing. The shots aren't the issue, it's the potential fertility and health repercussions and the hang up about being dependent on something forever.

[hossam]

i am 40 and I feel 17 with Cidoteston 2 shots a week
this is the best test i have ever tested, each amp price is 1 dollar
in Egypt :)

[O.N.]

What testosterone boosters have you tried and what stacks/combos have you used?

I know what you mean about cruising on a low dose and how it makes you feel, however you can feel that way naturally if you tickle testosterone production in the right areas, there is far more than just estrogen manipulation that you can do to push things higher.

Not to mention many people that do have a high total testosterone often leave their free testosterone unchecked and feel not as good as they could as SHBG and cortisol are eating up the free active testosterone. Which is often why when you take low dose testosterone you feel good as it wont get eaten up as easily.

With running our ultimate stack we have a number of people report low dose gear or near gear like feelings of wellness.

[BoneDaddy]

I'm loving the fawk out of my 200mg/week. I feel brand new and wish I'd have done it sooner. The only downside so far is my hematocrit gets elevated if I don't stay on top of the blood donations.

[necropuppy]

I'm 30 and my test was low before cycling PH and even after with multiple PCT attempted restarts, I started UGL test and man what a difference. I will happily blast and cruise for life.

If you have high test, I wouldn't get it not until you actually have low test. I'm no expert. But it seems any suppression of HPTA system with exogenous in the long term will not allow to return to the previous normal levels you used to have. Again I'm not expert and I'm going by what I've heard. So I could certainly be incorrect.

I know I don't need any more kids so I'd happily be infertile, but I believe it's highly unlikely you'll become infertile even after long periods on exogenous hormones.

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[Jelisej]

In your situation, you should not even think of TRT. as for most people is not fun, really- first you dont want to spend your youth organising your life around medication schedule. Most of people on TRT have tried more than once to get of it, as it gets more and more complicated, and you just think about health issues all day long how to improve etc....
People do feel very good on ecstasy and its very effective mood enhancement, but staying on it for life tofeel good does not seems as good idea, at least to me.

[weekend]

I realize it may not be fun.

I have never had my free test levels checked, only total.

Medication schedule would not be an issue, I plan on doing this as soon as the levels are legitimately low, and I expect that to start happening by 30.

I would not ever try to get off it unless it was necessary to have kids.

The biggest reason I have not to do it is that I definitely want kids and I also don't like how my seminal volume goes way down on a cycle.

I have not run a TRT dose of test for long enough to know how the sides compare to cycle doses, only long enough to tell that 200 mg definitely makes me feel like a bo$$ compared to this 1130 ng/dl natty level

[weekend]

As for natty test boosters I have tried DAA, erase, testofen, maca, sustain alpha, toco8, endoamp, ginger seemed to do a bit when I ate it daily... Zma, if that counts

That's about it I believe, any ideas?

The biggest reasons I can think of to do TRT is: life goals, peace of mind, loving my own personality more.

-I find that I am more goal oriented on it, I could easily see it being the difference between a sick waterfront house and a small apartment life in the long run.

-I find myself worrying about things too much with no drive to change them.

-I am funnier, more confident, more carefree, and more willing to accept myself for who I am. People seem to like me more as well.

All these parameters were the same before I used steroids. I honestly believe I have not caused any major damage from using them; I just feel it might be the case that I was always going to be better off with them.

[BoneDaddy]

Everyone is different, but at 200mg, my seminal volume has increased as well as my desire to make bad decision with the exponentially increased sex drive......

[Jelisej]

For another possible issues of 200mg of testosterone- its hard to tell as we dont have enough of feedback from people that do it, and problem is that people that use it had some other issues as well so in all honesty, its hard to tell where problems coming from when they happen- person that had stroke would maybe have it anyway or it happened because of other reason. I would certainly say that slightly over range testosterone is not dangerous and is more safe than low testosterone; but when we get to 200 mgs that (depending from person to person) may bring one's levels way over the top- and if its combined with unhealthy lifestyle it can be quite problematic. Again, how problematic its hard to say, and on top of it you would have to start adding some other stuff as your resting metabolic rate would start "going down".
As for benefits- there are some- tough lot of it is lost at some point, including libido increase. Again receptors play role as well as number of other reasons. And from I was told- finding "sweet point" is better than having high testosterone levels- so more is not always better.

In your particular case- I dont see reason why you go on TRT at the moment. Benefits are not worth the risk, maybe better to investigate what can improve your wellbeing, and why are you not fully enjoying your life when you should enjoy it most?

[weekend]

The information about thyroid is a big turn off for using TRT in general. What do you think about cycling jelisej?

And have you ever used ecstasy, LSD or cocaine?

[O.N.]

Why not look into low dose aromasin if nothing else is working for you.

[BBG]

Why not look into low dose aromasin if nothing else is working for you.

1000x this.

[ironjulius]

The biggest reasons I can think of to do TRT is: life goals, peace of mind, loving my own personality more.

-I find that I am more goal oriented on it, I could easily see it being the difference between a sick waterfront house and a small apartment life in the long run.

-I find myself worrying about things too much with no drive to change them.

-I am funnier, more confident, more carefree, and more willing to accept myself for who I am. People seem to like me more as well.


i started TRT 2 years ago 100mg every week and it made a positive change to my well being on so many levels. honestly knowing how much better i feel at 32 i wouldve got on TRT at 22. you could freeze your sperm in case you decide on having kids. someone suggested a low dose AI and i would try that

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first

[weekend]

i'm still on 25 aromasin ED... the only PCT type drug i am taking and its keeping my estrogen where i've felt good in the past, it's at 25 pg/ml now.

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i kind of worry about freezing my sperm because who knows what that could do to the genetic material. i am CERTAIN i want kids.

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jelisej are you saying i can't feel better on trt for more than a few months then? i will just go back to feeling crappy and have low thyroid?

[BoneDaddy]

i'm still on 25 aromasin ED... the only PCT type drug i am taking and its keeping my estrogen where i've felt good in the past, it's at 25 pg/ml now.

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i kind of worry about freezing my sperm because who knows what that could do to the genetic material. i am CERTAIN i want kids.

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jelisej are you saying i can't feel better on trt for more than a few months then? i will just go back to feeling crappy and have low thyroid?

Hasn't happened to met yet, I'm what....7 months in now......

[O.N.]

Ok so if you are taking aromasin now don't you feel good enough on that?
what dose and how often are you taking it?

[Jelisej]

jelisej are you saying i can't feel better on trt for more than a few months then? i will just go back to feeling crappy and have low thyroid?

No, what I say that initally person gets a quite decent improvement in libido and wellbeing in general, but later its effect is not as good, so for some people benefits are not worth it- for example lets say there are 2 persons A and B both unhappy with their sex life- lets say that A has on average sex once in fortnight or 0.5 times a week and person B has on average sex 2 times a week (BTW average married couple has sex between 2-3 times a week), anway lets say these guys go on liberal TRT regimen so both are expected to have a "high" first- for person A it may improve to the point he will have sex 4X a week, and person B may have a 5X- after certain time frequency will probably go down- so for A it will be 2X a week, and for person B it may be 3X a week
So now we can say that both had improvement, and we all can agree that person A benefited greatly- and his TRT is success, on other hand person B improved as well- but we can debate is his improvement really worth all the humdrum?

What sides can both of them expect? If we assume that person A had low test. to start with and now he is in good range- probably he will only benefit from TRT tough he may need to add some thyroid hormones, he may even need to boost his adrenals- neverthless its definitely worth it, as he is now normal person
on other hand person B which may have slightly lower hormone levels with adding synthetic hormones may not feel much improvement, he may or may not need adding other stuff but if he decides to go bit higher than probably he will have to add (at some point in future) other stuff as well- so now he feels more improvement but he has to on top of injecting 3X a week probably add T4 every day, plus maybe T3 few times a day, and if his cortisol is not good enough he will need to take some either synthetic cortisol- all in all IMO TRT for him is not worth it, as before he did not need to take anything and was still OK- if this person was not too long on TRT he will probably try to get off.
I hope this kind of explains things a bit.

Now, lets get back to reality and let see where you stand: AFAIK- you are good looking, healthy, well built, strong young man with very decent total testosterone levels- so basically you dont have a single good reason to go on TRT, because from experience of others and mine as well- natural and synthetic testosterone is not quite te same- while "normal" person with 700-800 ng/dl of TT feels quite good, person on TRT usually needs to be much higher to feel the same

Now, I'll share my own personal experience, an I experienced "all shades of gray" as young man I probably had high TT levels (even in recent years sometimes I would be tested at 800 ng/dl) and also I had been tested with low levels (and had other issues) and I can say that being on synthetic testosterone is good, much, much better than with low- but at any given dose (even with adding thyroid or adrenal support and getting very good numbers) I could never feel as good as I felt as a teenager with natural high levels, and basically I felt that having mediocre testosterone levels and mediocre sex life is better than all the medication... I could not wait to get off... And, in my honest opinion- its better to find a girlfriend which has lower libido than trying to match with nymphomaniac.

Again, coming back to your case- I dont think you would need a thyroid or adrenal meds, at least not at the moment- as in reality you would just more-less substitute natural for synthetic testosterone. Even if you would go bit higher- you would probably be OK for sometime, maybe 5 maybe 10 years- who knows?
After all- human body is very adaptable and durable and even people with very unhealthy lifestyle can go on for years before suffering serious consequences. It usually takes 10 years or bit more till heart attack for sedentary person with very unhealthy diet.

Overall- if you have certain issues I dont think they are because of other reasons than testosterone levels.

[BBG]

(BTW average married couple has sex between 2-3 times a week)

lol in what world is that

[Jelisej]

lol in what world is that
I'm not sure if it should be read as 2-3 days a week?
Anyway, few independent researches suggest this figure, it kind-of-sounds right to me- I beleive that it excludes teenagers otherwise figure would be much higher.

If you ask Ippy- you'll probably get 10X that :)

[BBG]

I'm not sure if it should be read as 2-3 days a week?
Anyway, few independent researches suggest this figure, it kind-of-sounds right to me- I beleive that it excludes teenagers otherwise figure would be much higher.

If you ask Ippy- you'll probably get 10X that :)

haha I was actually thinking it would be less.

This resource shows that 2-3 times per week is beat out by "A few times per month or weekly": The Kinsey Institute - Sexuality Information Links - FAQ [Related Resources] (http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html)

Scroll down to frequency.

[Jelisej]

Yeah, according to that its less that 2-3 times a week, different studies show different results- and its hard to tell which one are closer to the truth.
BTW- it seems that worst age for sex is somewhere in 30-'s. Apparently it improves a bit after 40, it seems that in 30-'s people are to stressed out, buying new home, children etc... And than at some point in their 40-ies they stop worrying and their sex life improves.
I found that encouraging (yeah, I'm in mid 30-'s).


back to testosterone levels; I found this chart, tough numbers sees bit low... IDK, Early morning testosterone levels in men are lot higher than p.m. levels- so maybe they did not test early.... I remeber that Australian farmers in their 70-'s had tt around 700-750 ng/dl, lot of folks say that tt goes down because health reasons more than age....
Avg Age Tot. Test.
30 617
40 668
50 606
60 562
70 524
80 471
93 376


"there was a 1999 study that examined 4,393 men between the ages of 32 and 44 and found that their average testosterone level (at 8 a.m.) was 679 ng/dl."



Interesting study: In men older than 70 years, total testoster... [Eur J Endocrinol. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17468195)

CONCLUSIONS:

In men aged 70-89 years, modulation of androgen action may occur via an age-related increase in SHBG and reduction in free testosterone without a decline in total testosterone concentration. Increasing age, BMI and LH are independently associated with lower free testosterone. Further investigation would be required to assess the clinical consequences of low serum free testosterone, particularly in older men in whom total testosterone may be preserved.

Healthier lifestyle predicts higher ci... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2009] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18691270)

CONCLUSIONS:

In men > 65 years old, higher lifestyle score reflecting greater engagement in healthy behaviours predicts higher subsequent total testosterone and SHBG levels. This relationship appears cumulative and may reflect interaction between lifestyle and insulin sensitivity. Successfully promoting healthy behaviours in older men could ameliorate the age-related decline in circulating testosterone.

[Bucks]

lol in what world is that

On this cycle it's been up to 5 times in a day when I'm home. Wife is like WTF are you taking !

Me - it's a special oil honey that's good for the joints! Love it.


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[hardestgainer]

Weekend Im jealous of your natural T levels, Im just a year older than you and Ive had naturally horrible T levels ever since I first got tested back when I was 20. Endo made me redo all the bloodwork because the first time it came back at 252, second time was still under 300. Every endo Ive been to locally has refused any treatment because of my age, they keep telling me to wait it out because they should rise.

Its damn near impossible to make gains with less T than my grandpa

[Jelisej]

Weekend Im jealous of your natural T levels, Im just a year older than you and Ive had naturally horrible T levels ever since I first got tested back when I was 20. Endo made me redo all the bloodwork because the first time it came back at 252, second time was still under 300. Every endo Ive been to locally has refused any treatment because of my age, they keep telling me to wait it out because they should rise.

Its damn near impossible to make gains with less T than my grandpa

You need to address the issue- first you may try clomid restart and see how it goes- if its congenital hypogonadism it will not work- and you'll need to go straight to TRT. if it works great, if it works to certain extent than there are other things to try- but in any case dont waste time, life is too short...

[hardestgainer]

You need to address the issue- first you may try clomid restart and see how it goes- if its congenital hypogonadism it will not work- and you'll need to go straight to TRT. if it works great, if it works to certain extent than there are other things to try- but in any case dont waste time, life is too short...

Thanks, I just never liked the idea of trying to self-medicate but Im pretty sure I dont have many alternatives left. Lost my health insurance this year but Ive moved to Washington now so Im gonna try another endo. Back when I first was dealing with it I have Eric from PP helping advise me a little

[weekend]

Definitely heed J's advice here

If clomid or aromasin doesn't work to get you 600+

Self medicate TRT all the way. Keep looking for docs in the meantime, be honest with your old bloodwork and new and they will help you out.