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nate3993
05-22-2014, 09:42 PM
Imma try and explain it all in as simple terms as possible.

was on cycle. 450 test c, 6-700 masteron e for 10 weeks.250 iu hcg 3 days a week. i played around with dosages. in my 2nd to last week i was at 800 mast and then ended my last week with 900 mast. the day after my last shot i went into pct and i did 100mg proviron for 7 days into pct whilst doing 50 mg of clomid and 25 exem e3d. i then went to 25mg clomid and 25mg exem eod and did this for about 1 and a half months. i then switched to clomid and erase.

here' s the part that's weird. in the past, i've only ever needed 2 erase, aka arimistane, a day and to control estro. well, i purchased olympus labs El1iminate which is the same ingredient as erase and yet I've been on FIVE a day, and it hasn't crushed my estro. if i would go on of 3 regular erase, it would make my estrogen too low. if i drop below 5 pills a day now, i start to get acne which I've found from my cycle that acne means estrogen, not necessarily an increase of androgens.


so basically, i'm guessing the eliminate is under dosed. that sucks. and then also, if my estro spikes when i go below 5 eliminate a day, then does that mean my estrogen is just gonna sky rocket when i come off the eliminate?


i just got bloodwork done today

tsh, t4, free & total testosterone, shgb, ,lh, fsh, dht, acth, prolactin, cortisol, estradiol, and possibly a couple other things.

i hope the bloodworm will shed light on my shedding or if the shedding is just something i need to ride out and then it'll stop

BBG
05-22-2014, 10:03 PM
well, i purchased olympus labs El1iminate which is the same ingredient as erase and yet I've been on FIVE a day, and it hasn't crushed my estro. if i would go on of 3 regular erase, it would make my estrogen too low. if i drop below 5 pills a day now, i start to get acne which I've found from my cycle that acne means estrogen, not necessarily an increase of androgens.


Pro tip: don't buy olympus labs.

Why not use aromasin?

O.N.
05-22-2014, 10:19 PM
As for the SERM's use in PCT have a read here how they are not needed and virtually useless in the long term Nolva, Clomid, SERM's Useless in PCT | Wicked Supplements (http://wickedsupplements.com/nolva-clomid-serms-useless-in-pct/)

Also do not over use HCG, 250IU 2x per week is equivalent to 94% of a normal males LH release anymore than that amount you risk over stimulation and possible damage to the leydig cells.

nate3993
05-22-2014, 10:35 PM
I figured arimistane would be something they'd have legit stuff of since it's not like an expensive rare thing. But sadly
I guess they fuked me over.

I had thought the aromasin was adding to the shedding but maybe not.

Jelisej
05-23-2014, 06:22 AM
One thing I can say- that you sterted your PCT way too early- so you need to add few more weeks for PCT.
Estrogen is made from testosterone via aromatase- if there is not much testosterone than aromatisation will not be as problem as if there is a lot testosterone- the dosage of AI always differs from cycle toc ycle- depending what person has used- but also it differs in PCT as well- and in reality not that much is needed- just right amount to keep it from spiking and other thing to watch is "rebound" effect- which does not happen if aromasin/exemestane is used.

As for SERMS in PCT- my opinion is firmly that they should be used- it is not just a question of recovery, it is also question of "refreshing" receptors in brain.


Increased acne- simply said it is sign that your body either cannot sustain higher testosterone/hormone levels and sometimes that it does not metabolise testosterone well. Basically its not a good sign.

O_RYAN_007
05-23-2014, 01:29 PM
I've found that I get bad acne when my E2 is too low.

nate3993
05-24-2014, 04:53 PM
Yeah. According to weekend....it was your advice too starting pct after last dose. I agree though. I don't like this approach. I think waiting at least 3 weeks after last injection is pretty good.

I guess we'll just have to see where I'm at hormonally. Libido has been good though.

I will let weekend know that he must've mis read something about you saying to start Clomid that early.

Jelisej
05-24-2014, 05:39 PM
Yeah. According to weekend....it was your advice too starting pct after last dose. I agree though. I don't like this approach. I think waiting at least 3 weeks after last injection is pretty good.
I guess we'll just have to see where I'm at hormonally. Libido has been good though.
I will let weekend know that he must've mis read something about you saying to start Clomid that early.

I dont know if you are referring to me, as I always suggest to start PCT after steroids clear out of system- you can check on number of posts in past.
If you have any link to suggest that I gave that bad advice plese post link and I asure you I will not just make an apology- I will personally ask moderators to ban me from this forum, and you will never hear from me again.
And I'm pretty sure I always pointed that is very difficult to calculate when to start PCT, and regarding AI always point that is impossible to say in adevance which dosage should be used.

Jelisej
05-24-2014, 05:48 PM
My first AAS Cycle (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/personal-training-logs/1301-my-first-aas-cycle.html)

Message number 9 is my advice regarding PCT (for this particular case I kept it simple) its dated/last edited a year ago.
And clearly I said: "run HCG+AI till testosterone clears of the system and then move into PCT- clomid+ low dose of AI" - tough I should be more precise and said to start clomid 2-3 days, after last hcg shot


On this thread as well I said similar thing, check posts 2, 7, 19 and 24
1st cycle, help with proper PCT (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/traditional-anabolics/1759-1st-cycle-help-proper-pct.html)

nate3993
05-24-2014, 08:34 PM
Yeah. Weekend had mis read sowmthing I guess. Don't be talking about getting banned. Lol just some miscommunication. I did run hcg throughout.

Jelisej
05-25-2014, 06:27 AM
If I gave bad advice than I should certainly be banned, as PCT is very serious thing and it can be very damaging for person.
Anyway- back to your case I have to clarify that I always suggest to folks that no hormone should be used during PCT- no DHT based, no GH, no pregnenolone. There are so many interactions and enzymes that convert hormones that is impossible to guess where and how will certain hormone be converted.
Now, in your case- you added proviron which is basically a DHT and at least during first to weeks you had a lot of DHT in there from masteron- so your recovery did not start for a while. Probably best aproach now would be to run PCT for another 10 weeks or so.

Read about clomid restart again, and this may help a bit: Clomid Nolva PCT (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/1955-clomid-nolva-pct.html)

As I am becoming fan of combining tamoxifen and clomiphene.

Cdsnuts
05-25-2014, 12:13 PM
If I gave bad advice than I should certainly be banned, as PCT is very serious thing and it can be very damaging for person.
.

Lets say for arguments sake that you did give bad advice (which you most likely didn't) Your contributions to this forum far out way any bad advice that may go out. Banning you would be a big negative to this place, to say the least.

Secondly, you're not a doctor and your advice should always be taken with a grain of salt, regardless of how good it is. If people are making life changing decisions by getting medical advice from a forum and not an actual professional, that falls on them, not you.

Just putting it into perspective J.

nate3993
05-25-2014, 12:17 PM
Holy shit. U think I should pct for another 10 weeks?????? That's a lot of pct. Let's get blood test results back first before I decide to do another 2.5 months. After a couple months Clomid makes me a lil bit crazy. Not super emotional...but just kinda makes me feel crazy.

I know you don't like it.....but I also used ipam/CJC and some kigtropin while in pct.

I'm done with the hormone game though. It's fun and all....but fuk. I dont consider that it's worth it anymore. So much little intricate details when messing your hormones is just so frustrating. I'm kind of in the same boat as infamy. It just becomes too much work just to have "fun"....if that makes sense.

nate3993
05-25-2014, 12:22 PM
CDs is right j....plus...I appreciate the responses man.

Jelisej
05-25-2014, 04:42 PM
Thanks guys, but I will be adamant and I will say that anyone should be warned if giving bad advices, and even banned- and for me there would be no "hard feelings"- when there is talk about PCT and messing up with hormones there is no place for friendliness, and no one should live on account of past glory or because is trying to be helpful- its like in sports- if top player does not play well enough, he losses place in a team.
Sometimes these questions are questions of life and death- or even worse, as person with failed PCT may end up with depression which in my opinion ( and from experience) is worse than death itself.
I always point out if I think advice is bad etc... And also I encourage people to tackle my advices or opinions as that is best way, and it will bring best out of us (as long as people dont take it personally).

Jelisej
05-25-2014, 05:05 PM
Holy shit. U think I should pct for another 10 weeks?????? That's a lot of pct. Let's get blood test results back first before I decide to do another 2.5 months. After a couple months Clomid makes me a lil bit crazy. Not super emotional...but just kinda makes me feel crazy.
I know you don't like it.....but I also used ipam/CJC and some kigtropin while in pct.
I'm done with the hormone game though. It's fun and all....but fuk. I dont consider that it's worth it anymore. So much little intricate details when messing your hormones is just so frustrating. I'm kind of in the same boat as infamy. It just becomes too much work just to have "fun"....if that makes sense.

10 weeks is my rough estimation- but defintely you need to do bit more as there are few issues that need to be tackled- you need to understand following things:
-your PCT did not work for first couple of weeks as you have been loaded with androgens, and in same time you did not use HCG so your Leydig cells probably suffered, maybe not but I have tendency to assume worst scenario

- it is questionable wheter your body at the time you started to recover was in condition to recover properly meaning that your cortisol was probably depleted as cycle took a toll, and DHT is somewhat supressive to cortisol- and then even if your thyroid was working at full scale than it probably did not have sufficient cortisol to transport it into cells- which means that your resting metabolic rate is slow which means that body would be unable to sustain higher hormone levels for at least a period after

- it is also important to "refresh receptors" SERMS block estrogen receptors in brain (among other stuff it does) which is actually why it works for PCT but also receptors become more sensitive, meaning they "cut off" earlier when they sense E2 are becoming high- which in long terms mean higher hormone levels...


If you had enough of clomid and starting suffering it means that probably dosage is high, so try to reduce or mix it with tamoxifene- for example what I have done: mon-wed-fri-sun 25mg of clomiphene, tue-thur-sat 20 mg of tamoxifene - this is also high dose actually but my pituary is a bit unresponsive so I need higher doses than most, anyway you can use same principle but with less dosage, or less frequency- whatever is more simple for you.

also I pay attention to skin/acne- a lot of acne means poor testosterone metabolism to say simply- so for me it means I need to continue PCT, I would assume that same goes for you- if you have more acne issues than normal- conitunue PCT, tough make sure dose is not high....

P.S- peptides/growth hormones- one of the principles they work on is that they increase fT4 to fT3 conversion, which can co,plcate thins especially with thyroid that does not function well, for example if I take SERMS levels of fT4 are start reducing as my thyroid can keep up with high levels of testosterone- and if I would add peps/GH it would complicate things, and idea that peptides will save muscles is at least overrated

Bucks
05-25-2014, 06:02 PM
Lets say for arguments sake that you did give bad advice (which you most likely didn't) Your contributions to this forum far out way any bad advice that may go out. Banning you would be a big negative to this place, to say the least.

Secondly, you're not a doctor and your advice should always be taken with a grain of salt, regardless of how good it is. If people are making life changing decisions by getting medical advice from a forum and not an actual professional, that falls on them, not you.

Just putting it into perspective J.

I agree. I think a lot of people enjoy your comments and knowledge. I know do brother!

BoneDaddy
05-25-2014, 06:48 PM
If everyone who gave bad advice was banned, I think all of the forums would see a 85% reduction in forum members internet wide. I certainly wouldn't group J in that percentile.

nate3993
05-25-2014, 06:54 PM
j- i used hcg throughout the entire cycle.....250iu m w f....so my body was in a better state to recover

but like i said....i wanna see what my blood test says and then go from there


and sorry, but i gotta disagree. Peptides in pct make you retain ur muslce gained on cycle like none other.....for mine and weekend's body....we both can say that is fact

Jelisej
05-25-2014, 06:54 PM
If everyone who gave bad advice was banned, I think all of the forums would see a 85% reduction in forum members internet wide. I certainly wouldn't group J in that percentile.

Thanks bro' really good to hear that from you, as we had a bit uneasy relationship at one time, I did not like it- and I'm glad as it seems thats left behind us.

Jelisej
05-25-2014, 07:01 PM
j- i used hcg throughout the entire cycle.....250iu m w f....so my body was in a better state to recover

but like i said....i wanna see what my blood test says and then go from there
and sorry, but i gotta disagree. Peptides in pct make you retain ur muslce gained on cycle like none other.....for mine and weekend's body....we both can say that is fact

What I ment about HCG- you did use it during entire time- but there is a gap between last shot and HCG and when LH started working, we dont know how long that period was- but it could be long enough to caused reduction in Leydig cells. As I said earlier I'm assuming the worse (as usually).

As for retaining muscle- this is a difficult question as it is very hard to get real date, actually it is impossible- thats why muscular muscular hypertrophy is still not proven in humans- as at the end of testings you would have to amputate body-builders arm and count muscle fibers and thickness etc....
Point is- we dont know did you maintain muscle size or water in muscle cells or is it something else.

Actually, to prove hypertrophy- they would have to exercise one arm only (or exercise with more weights on one arm)- and then amputate both arms to see the difference (thats how they do it in animals)- I dont know if that would be legal- but certainly there would be no volunteers.

nate3993
05-25-2014, 07:46 PM
So saying my body isn't metabolizing my test means that my body is making it., and is gaving a hard time utilizing it properly? So does that mean my aromatize enzyme is high this creating more estro?


I didn't take an estrogen blocker after I took 25mg Exem And 12.5 Clomid Friday...

And now today a decent amount of acne is popping up.


So basically longer pct should make my body metabolize these hormones well?

What if my blood work looks fine?

BoneDaddy
05-25-2014, 08:03 PM
Thanks bro' really good to hear that from you, as we had a bit uneasy relationship at one time, I did not like it- and I'm glad as it seems thats left behind us.
Never any hard feelings with me brother. People disagree and we move on. Now, if we can get everyone to buy into that simple, mature premise imagine what we could do! :-)

Jelisej
05-25-2014, 08:26 PM
So saying my body isn't metabolizing my test means that my body is making it., and is gaving a hard time utilizing it properly? So does that mean my aromatize enzyme is high this creating more estro?
I didn't take an estrogen blocker after I took 25mg Exem And 12.5 Clomid Friday...
And now today a decent amount of acne is popping up.
So basically longer pct should make my body metabolize these hormones well?
What if my blood work looks fine?

As usually first I must say that is hard to answer your questions, especially to give specific numbers etc....

First I'll start with testosterone metabolism- what I mean is that testosterone does not convert properly, meaning either it gets converted a lot to estrogen or even DHT (which is not so likely) or it goes elsewere... Now lets get back to phrase that I use a lot "resting metabolic rate"-
resting metabolic rate is determined by: cortisol, fT3, insulin (sensitivity) and leptin- (and GH is needed as well) if one or more of these are skewed it will result in low resting metabolic rate- which basically means inability to sustain high(er) levels of hormones.
So what it means is that when testosterone levels go up so goes demand for cortisol and fT3 (as resting metabolic rate need to increase)

So to start with thyroid- as demand for fT3 goes up thyroid struggles to produce and brain is pushing it to work harder by sending signals (TSH) but in reality thyroid often cannot keep up- subsequently that results in higher aromatisation levels so E2 goes up faster than it should be, again brain detects raising E2 levels and cuts off testosterone production. Now, if you would reduce E2 by AI you would get some higher test levels but your TSH would be even higher which would result in high prolactin levels, now you can add dostinex and reduce prolactin then probably your progesterone would get too high killing your libido etc.... etc... basically in every scenario of supplementing result is similar- you can boost your libido only on temporary basis.
If there is problem with adrenals, its the same story more-less- Without sufficient cortisol levels t3 would not get transported to cells- and cortisol is needed elswere so RMR would be low, and symptoms would be quite pronounced- one would have big time lack of energy, would be dosing during the day and even after 12 hours sleep would be tired.... etc....

Basically longer PCT would refresh your receptors better which would mean better response to E2 and Leydig cells would regenerate faster- both this would lead to less aromatisation, and would stimulate endocrine system bit more, which in bit better.
OK, you can say that your cycle was not that harsh and that probably most of people would recover anyway- and yeah, that's true- but they would lose more muscles, recovery would be slower and their numbers might be lower. And their receptors would probably be less sensitive to E2.

If your bloods look fine? That would be good thing, but anyway- you have to understand that blood works tell only small part of the story- basically we know concentration of testosterone in blood, but we dont know how efficiently is getting used etc.... If one person A 800 ng/dl and person B 600 ng/dl it does not automatically means that person A is better off- it could be other way round- if person A has much faster metabolic rate than he would fare much better-
I'll try to explain: lets say there are 2 oil pipes- one is 2X ticker than other, and it holds 2X of oil in square meter- but if thinner had 3X higher pressure its overall output it would be much higher, and even if it has less oil per square meter- it would be more efficient and would overall result in more oil and revenue for its owner.

nate3993
05-25-2014, 11:24 PM
gotcha my man. at least the bloods are pretty thorough, and should give a pretty good idea of where things are and where things need to be

total and free test, lh, fsh, estradiol, dht, prolactin, t4, tsh, shgb, cortisol, acth..and possibly one or 2 more things.

weekend
05-26-2014, 12:01 PM
Basically, J, what I had told Nate is to start clomid at 25 mg right after his last shot.

I have had much better PCT experiences including some DHT at the beginning. He had dropped test prior to dropping the mast.

I had seen you write you preferred the idea of using 25 mg clomid a week to 10 days early to "preload" before steroids clear. I extrapolated this into a bit earlier since I find pct easier with mast or proviron or epiandro in first 2 weeks.

I don't see why you would advise a nearly 20 week pct for a 10 week cycle... But don't take that as an attack, no one wants you to leave and even though I'm majoring in physiology you clearly have a better understanding of it than I.

Let's remember the usual pct protocol parroted by bros everywhere:

Clomid: 100/100/50/50
Nolva: 40/40/20/20

Many people do well on that!

I don't think using low dose serms for 20 weeks is the answer but... I don't know.

Jelisej
05-26-2014, 12:54 PM
OK, weekend- 1. I did not say I'm living I said if there is proof that I give bad advices I should be banned, btw I did not get upset or angry on anyone, but I do get frustrated as quite few times happened that people claimed that I said which I did not; I would like to point that I always try to be simple- so there is no point to try to find "deeper meanings"- for example if mention "clomid restart" it does not mean that I say that tamoxifene or other SERM is not good- I just use info that I have and that is been proven-

2."I had seen you write you preferred the idea of using 25 mg clomid a week to 10 days early to "preload" before steroids clear."
If you have link please post it, as I really dont think this is my idea, but is possible that it was typo, AFAIK in person who were using testosterone (TRT) if they tried restart- clomiphene would not start working till their levels would drop below 200 ng/dl- tough I dont remeber exact numbers- it was somewhere between 100-150 ng/dl but I'm not sure TBH

I did change some of my ideas over time and always try to improve things- but as far as PCT there were no significant changes, basic principles are the same- some bits were changed like suggesting to add taladafil/viagra or accepting idea of mixing tamoxifene and clomiphene- but again principles are the same including start of PCT,
regarding DHT derivatives also my postion was always the same, there is no so much data but DHT is supressive (tough I cant tell how much) The hormone response to a synthetic an... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1977] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/872444)

3. I did not suggest 20 week PCT, i suggested that he should start all over again as it is questionable how successful was current PCT, and at what point he started to recover- so safest route is to start all over again, tough he can reduce dosage- if he has sides most likely its because overdosage

4. If one's testosterone is suppressed- He is suppressed, regardless of dosage if it was 400 mg of test e or 600 mg, and in both cases in PCT dosage would be the same, as a matter of fact even if he used 100 mg dosage would be same- AFAIK - in some compounds recovery is slower but for different reasons for example trenbolone can raise a progesterone a lot, and when raised it can take a long time to return to normal levels- or nandrolone has a big impact on serotonin ( and serotonin and estrogen levels are connected) and its effect can last 4X of duration of cycle- so that means if one was on 6 months on nandrolone cycle- it can backfire for 2 years after the cycle, I'm not sure how much it affects HPTA recovery, TBH but its effect on mood does last a while

Massthetics
05-28-2014, 03:21 PM
Imma try and explain it all in as simple terms as possible.

was on cycle. 450 test c, 6-700 masteron e for 10 weeks.250 iu hcg 3 days a week. i played around with dosages. in my 2nd to last week i was at 800 mast and then ended my last week with 900 mast. the day after my last shot i went into pct and i did 100mg proviron for 7 days into pct whilst doing 50 mg of clomid and 25 exem e3d. i then went to 25mg clomid and 25mg exem eod and did this for about 1 and a half months. i then switched to clomid and erase.

here' s the part that's weird. in the past, i've only ever needed 2 erase, aka arimistane, a day and to control estro. well, i purchased olympus labs El1iminate which is the same ingredient as erase and yet I've been on FIVE a day, and it hasn't crushed my estro. if i would go on of 3 regular erase, it would make my estrogen too low. if i drop below 5 pills a day now, i start to get acne which I've found from my cycle that acne means estrogen, not necessarily an increase of androgens.


so basically, i'm guessing the eliminate is under dosed. that sucks. and then also, if my estro spikes when i go below 5 eliminate a day, then does that mean my estrogen is just gonna sky rocket when i come off the eliminate?


i just got bloodwork done today

tsh, t4, free & total testosterone, shgb, ,lh, fsh, dht, acth, prolactin, cortisol, estradiol, and possibly a couple other things.

i hope the bloodworm will shed light on my shedding or if the shedding is just something i need to ride out and then it'll stop

You're running a bunch of drugs and blaming an otc ai of your problems? Bollocks.

ryhigh
05-28-2014, 08:17 PM
When do you get your bloods back Nate?

BBG
05-29-2014, 01:40 PM
Cleaned up the thread, sorry about that. Moved to: BBG is not a good guy. He is bad guy. And a shill. Dang that guy is just the worst. (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/general-discussion/2141-bbg-not-good-guy-he-bad-guy-shill-dang-guy-just-worst.html)

nate3993
05-30-2014, 03:08 PM
thanks bbg.....that guys a joke. and to the mass dude. actually no. i blame messing with my hormones as my problem. i never blamed it on the AI, just had suspicions the AI was under dosed.

got part of my bloods....but sadly the ones i want most, total/ free test/ cortisol/ dht i won't be able to get til this weekend



what we have so far though

ACTH- 15 Range 6-50
TSH- 1.54 0.40-4.50
T4-1.3 0.8-1.8
Estradiol- <15 ......which means that the olympus labs almost completely took away my estrogen...guess it's legit...kinda amazing i feel this good
FSH- <0.7 1.6-8.0 .....this has been notoriously low in the past..but never quite this low
LH-1.6 1.5-9.3 .....again. this has been low in the past and then in the past when i had it retested it said 4.9...so i think bloods were taken while there was no pulse this time
Prolactin- 3.9 2.0-18
SHGB- 25 10-50




so really nothing alarming cept for the fsh...course fertility will never be a concern of mine, but i understand that it being low can be sign of other issues. i wanna see my total test # so bad i can't even fukin explain n words how anxious i am to get it as that should tell quite the tale, and give me a more complete view of m puzzle....but at least i only have to wait a day or two haha

nate3993
05-30-2014, 03:33 PM
so a month and a half to 2 months more of clomid with some ai here and there is what I'm going to do. continue with the maca as it can help balance out hormones and then i take the toco caps with each clomid dose.

ryhigh
05-30-2014, 03:45 PM
Why not stop taking anything hormonal at all for a couple months, then take new bloods and see if clomid is needed... Maybe your body is saying no more hormonal supps...


Telepathically sent from iPhone using Jedi mind tricks

Jelisej
05-30-2014, 04:37 PM
I'll wait for other tests then I will evaluate.
In mean time, if I was checking random tests I would say- everything looks like very slow metabolism or your pituary is not working well (hypopituarism) but chances is that you need more time to recover.
Again, we will see other results, but I dont expect high numbers. You will need long recovery, and then 3 months off to test and see "real" results"- tough it would be good idea to check during clomid run as well to; see how well is pituary responding.

nate3993
05-31-2014, 02:24 PM
Welp. More pct is just what the dr ordered. Might even throw in some torem with the Clomid.

Total T-219 250-110
DHT- 27 16-79
Free T- 42. 35-155
Cortisol- 16.8 4.6-20.6

Jelisej
05-31-2014, 03:58 PM
Well, cortisol looks good which is main thing, and puts little bit bright colours in otherwise grey picture. Clomid restart is must, you can copy Markams PCT which is combination of clomiphene and nolvadex.
Problem that you may encounter is thyroid- as the levels are relatively low, and TSH is 1.5 mlU/l which is high for levels of T4 that you have, which means that as levels of testosterone and other hormones raise so will raise demand for thyroid hormones- in practice what happens is that as thyroid struggles brain raises TSH to push thyroid to work harder but as TSH raises prolactin raises as well- it may not happen but its something to pay attention. Other thing too look at is LH levels- or basically how your pituary is responding.

O_RYAN_007
06-03-2014, 08:04 AM
HMG for LH!

nate3993
06-03-2014, 01:15 PM
that can be suppressive in the same way hcg can be suppressive

O_RYAN_007
06-05-2014, 07:32 AM
that can be suppressive in the same way hcg can be suppressive

You say this based on what? I have bloods to prove this otherwise. I also took hcg 4 wks in pct, and I'm still taking hmg and a combo of torem and clomid.

653.6 (348-1197) total test, 16.8 ( 9-26.5)free test, LH 6.2 (1.7-8.6), FSH 3.8(1.5-12.4) E2 13.8 (7.6-42.6), AST 28 (0-40), ALT 23(0-44)

2 wks after everything cleared I got bloods, and my FSH and LH were pretty much non existent. The number above were taken 6 wks after.

weekend
06-05-2014, 11:06 AM
Haha Ryan, you obviously didn't do your research...

HMG contains actual LH and FSH, so the test results are showing the exogenous stuff

Try not using it for a week and get tested again.

- - - Updated - - -

At least partially since you're still on serms. I would drop the HMG asap

And then the serms as well and get bloods after they clear I guess

weekend
06-05-2014, 11:07 AM
Also look at my bloods on torem and clomid in my progress log

My LH and FSH are both out of range high

No HMG was used. You're probably significantly preventing pituitary recovery in reality.

Jelisej
06-05-2014, 11:29 AM
I agree with Weekend on both posts; thing is in most cases even if PCT is not used one usually one will eventually recover tough chances of not recovering or not recovering enough is significantly higher than with proper PCT. On top of that blood there is important part that we cannot test- like receptors, which in a way almost makes blood test useless- because if person prior cycle had for example 800 ng/dl and after 810 ng/dl its not neccessary that he is better off with 810 ng/dl- that number only says what is concentration of testosterone in blood- but not how efficiently is used up by cells etc.... If person has 600 ng/dl and top of range thyroid hormones he will surely be better than someone with 800 ng/dl testosterone and low thyroid levels (and adrenal hormone levels)- second guy will for sure have problems with E2, prolactin etc....

O_RYAN_007
06-05-2014, 12:07 PM
I agree that hmg effects both lh and fsh, and I will retest in a couple weeks. Tues was my last hmg dose.

Jelisej
06-05-2014, 12:31 PM
I agree that hmg effects both lh and fsh, and I will retest in a couple weeks. Tues was my last hmg dose.

I dont know full story, but it seems that would be good idea to use clomid, if nothing else at least it would make things to go more quickly.

O_RYAN_007
06-05-2014, 05:56 PM
I dont know full story, but it seems that would be good idea to use clomid, if nothing else at least it would make things to go more quickly.

I'm still going for another 5 wks of clomid and torem.

nate3993
06-05-2014, 07:44 PM
How u like torem?

- - - Updated - - -

Mixed with Clomid? Dosing? Considering getting some torem to stack with my clomid

BoneDaddy
06-05-2014, 08:21 PM
How u like torem?

Mixed with Clomid? Dosing? Considering getting some torem to stack with my clomid

Let me know if you do decide on Torem, Nate. I may have an unused bottle you can have.

O_RYAN_007
06-05-2014, 08:25 PM
How u like torem?

- - - Updated - - -

Mixed with Clomid? Dosing? Considering getting some torem to stack with my clomid

25mg of clomid with 80 mg of torem right now, plus toco8 and 5000iu of vit d3, 1000mg fit c

with 25 mg of exem per week. My e2 has been a little on the low side and I don't need to go crushing it.

Jelisej
06-06-2014, 10:05 AM
I'm still going for another 5 wks of clomid and torem.

Based on my observations, after most of medium-and-longer cycles- in standard swole PCT (that you are using) testosterone levels usually go back fairly quickly- but it still takes a while for everything that settles down, so IMO PCT should be for 10 weeks
I've noticed that there is lot of acne problems- I had it myself, and it seems that it subsides at week 8-9, I beleive that acne are connected to E2 but I would say that it signalises that testosterone metabolism is still not good, so based on that I would always go for 10 weeks, even tough it sounds too long- last few weeks dosage can be lower than beggining.

Also feedback from mix of clomid and nolva is good, I tried it myself, and I give 2 thumbs up- I used clomid 3 days a week (mon-wed-fri) 25 mg, and nolva 20 mg- mind you that nolva/tamoxifen has a lot shorter half-life than clomid and torem, so thats why I used bit high dose (also my pituary is bit nonresponsive)

nate3993
06-06-2014, 01:43 PM
Let me know if you do decide on Torem, Nate. I may have an unused bottle you can have.

That's be awesome man. I'm down to use it.

O_RYAN_007
06-06-2014, 05:15 PM
Based on my observations, after most of medium-and-longer cycles- in standard swole PCT (that you are using) testosterone levels usually go back fairly quickly- but it still takes a while for everything that settles down, so IMO PCT should be for 10 weeks
I've noticed that there is lot of acne problems- I had it myself, and it seems that it subsides at week 8-9, I beleive that acne are connected to E2 but I would say that it signalises that testosterone metabolism is still not good, so based on that I would always go for 10 weeks, even tough it sounds too long- last few weeks dosage can be lower than beggining.

Also feedback from mix of clomid and nolva is good, I tried it myself, and I give 2 thumbs up- I used clomid 3 days a week (mon-wed-fri) 25 mg, and nolva 20 mg- mind you that nolva/tamoxifen has a lot shorter half-life than clomid and torem, so thats why I used bit high dose (also my pituary is bit nonresponsive)

I'm currently on wk 7 of pct J, I'm just going for another 5 or 6 wks of the clomid and torem.

Jelisej
06-06-2014, 05:59 PM
I'm currently on wk 7 of pct J, I'm just going for another 5 or 6 wks of the clomid and torem.

It seems that I got your previous posts wrong, as I tought that you are still on HMG, (which is not PCT as HPTA is still shut)- HMG (same as HCG) protect testicles from athrophy or even restores testicle size after cycle, and sometimes people use HCG or HMG for a while after cycle, till AAS clear out- and then start PCT. But if you are on week 7 of PCT, then another 5 or 6 weeks will be more than enough.

O_RYAN_007
06-06-2014, 08:55 PM
It seems that I got your previous posts wrong, as I tought that you are still on HMG, (which is not PCT as HPTA is still shut)- HMG (same as HCG) protect testicles from athrophy or even restores testicle size after cycle, and sometimes people use HCG or HMG for a while after cycle, till AAS clear out- and then start PCT. But if you are on week 7 of PCT, then another 5 or 6 weeks will be more than enough.

I did use hmg for the first 6 wks of pct, just to be clear.

Jelisej
06-07-2014, 06:04 AM
I did use hmg for the first 6 wks of pct, just to be clear.

Well, different people different views- IMO that was not a PCT, because your HPTA was still shut as Weekend said it few posts back.

Personally, I'm bit surprised that you complicated things so much as I considered you as one of more experienced and knowledgeable folks in here.

nate3993
08-07-2014, 12:36 PM
sooooo. i got updated bloodwork after using clomid and torem together eod-e3d for about almost 2 months...

now. my levels are better. but eh. i was hoping they'd be a little higher. unfortunately i forgot to get my lh and fsh, but here's what i got


TSH to T4 Reflex- 2.05 0.40-4.5
Estradiol- 28 <39
SHGB- 34 10-50
Total Test- 563 250-1100
Free Test- 82.8 35-155


at least my free test more than doubled. and that's a pretty good number considering what my shgb is at



do i continue to use torem and clomid? almost like a mini trt protocol? do i go off of all hormone influencing stuff and then retest? what do y'all think.

Jelisej
08-07-2014, 04:15 PM
How long did were you off clomid and other stuff when blood test was done? Clomid has a long half-life, and you should take more than 8 weeks to get proper results.

If this is your natural result than thats lot of improvement, and your usual results are not better than this. E2 is really good. SHBG is high-ish, thyroid results I don know how to interpret, I dont have experience with this kind of test.

nate3993
08-07-2014, 08:18 PM
I took Clomid/ torem on Monday. Blood test Friday.

tallstraw
08-07-2014, 08:49 PM
Personally, I'm bit surprised that you complicated things so much as I considered you as one of more experienced and knowledgeable folks in here.

Backhanded compliments are the best

Jelisej
08-07-2014, 08:56 PM
Clomid's half-life is 5 days (for most people, officially says 5-7 days), so you still had some of it, and toremifene has simlar half-life (dont know exactly), so your blood test is still influenced by those two to certain (unknown) degree, so in that respect blood results are not brilliant. Personally I would continue with clomid for a while in hope things will improve, then at some point taper off, take 8 weeks off and then do blood test again.

longBallLima
08-08-2014, 01:44 AM
Shit nate, i probably missed quite a bit of the discussion here and this may be an uninformed question, but how the hell is your test in the 500s AFTER improving? Aren't you 21 or something?

nate3993
08-08-2014, 02:13 AM
I pct'd. Knew that my pct didn't do all that much, and my levels tested. Came out to 230......took some Clomid/ torem.....and then it came out to 563....in all
Honesty tho, my torem is only 30mg/ ml and I was often using only half a ml...so maybe using regular torem doses would be good?? Like doing the 120, 90, 60 taper?

longBallLima
08-08-2014, 02:17 AM
I'm excited with the idea of PCTing on Torem, but worry a lot about legitimacy. With your results, I would maybe try to just run Clomid, since you're a lot more likely to get quality stuff... just a thought i guess, what do I know...

It is somewhat concerning to see such low numbers on a young individual like yourself, specially since they may not really be true/stable if you were still on the SERMs

weekend
08-08-2014, 02:46 AM
563 is super weak if on serms

If you dosed properly you should be 1000+ on serms

longBallLima
08-08-2014, 02:49 AM
nate, did you get LH and FSH on your last BW?

weekend
08-08-2014, 02:50 AM
I think since you aren't having kids ever I would retest after a month or 2 off everything and consider TRT if below 500

You need LH and FSH tests to see if your serms worked

tallstraw
08-08-2014, 07:17 AM
Torem always perked me back up. I think your source is more important. That dragon's is solid, perked me back up each time, and fast. I think tript and torem would be a good combo.

Bucks
08-08-2014, 08:54 AM
I've always had good luck with Torem. Took my test level back to 900 in 5 weeks using Torem at 120, 90, 60 with the old PP PCT stack.

nate3993
08-08-2014, 11:09 AM
the torem is most definitely legit. to anyone that bought from skyward.....you should know the quality. top notch, so on that front, there's nothing to worry about. and yeah. this sucks that on serms i only got 563. I've been saying it for a few years that I always expected to go on trt cuz of harsh hormonal use at a young age, 2 Superdrone cycles at 17, so I guess I can't say I'm surprised, just bummed it may actually be this early in life is all.

and no. sadly i forgot to get lh and fsh tested.

longBallLima
08-08-2014, 11:12 AM
the torem is most definitely legit. to anyone that bought from skyward.....you should know the quality. top notch, so on that front, there's nothing to worry about. and yeah. this sucks that on serms i only got 563. I've been saying it for a few years that I always expected to go on trt cuz of harsh hormonal use at a young age, 2 Superdrone cycles at 17, so I guess I can't say I'm surprised, just bummed it may actually be this early in life is all.

and no. sadly i forgot to get lh and fsh tested.


well, definitely do that so you can determine what's causing the low number. plus, I doubt your TT is really 560, since you were still on serms. I think, realistically, you're looking at no recovery at all

nate3993
08-08-2014, 02:51 PM
Yeah. That's what I'm thinking man. Should I just go off? Get a blood test that shows I'm low and then go on TRT?

longBallLima
08-08-2014, 03:03 PM
I would get numbers first and go from there. While you're at it, maybe check on the adrenals, though Jel is the man to tell you what to look for. Do you have low T symptoms? How's the size on them ballz?

Not to sound preachy, but through this assessment period, I would cut pot and other substances as well, just to make sure you have a good clear reading.

Jelisej
08-08-2014, 04:01 PM
Yeah. That's what I'm thinking man. Should I just go off? Get a blood test that shows I'm low and then go on TRT?

You can either wait for another 8 weeks (6 would probably be enough) retest and than take it from there, or you can go bit longer on clomid- than take 8 weeks off and retest, if I remeber correctly previously you had very low test levels because AAS but eventually after long time and effort it went to 500-ish? so it seems that you HPTA is notoriously slow to recover, but there is still chance- on other hand considering your test levels before cycle was not great so its unlikely that you'll go over low 500's, but lot of folks feel good enough on 500 ng/dl.


Now regarding SERMS, if you used higher dosages of SERMS you might have had higher test levels on blood test- but that does not mean that your recovery would be better, in other words if you used lower dosages than your 560 ng/dl may go down to 500 ng/dl if you used high dosages you might have tested 800 ng/dl but you would still end up with 500 ng/dl.
A lot depends from pituary, for example very often for guys with congenital hypogonadism is that when they are on SERMS they get good numbers but as soon as they stop using it their levels drop like a rock.

nate3993
08-08-2014, 04:09 PM
Gonna go off of em and retest.

Been using 12.5mg Clomid. 15-30mg torem, toco caps, and arimistane at 100mgs for estro control. Was using every other day for a month and a half and then dropped for e3-4 day for the last half month.

Jelisej
08-08-2014, 04:38 PM
So SERM's levels in your system were not that high, so your test level may not be as high as they might have been, which also means that it may not drop a lot. And you could do blood test in 6 weeks.
What were your last results before cycle?

nate3993
08-08-2014, 09:26 PM
684

Yeah. I'm gonna be extra on point with my diet. Saturated fats, sunlight, green smoothies, celery, broccoli, garlic, ginger, onions, etc. Foods that show extra influence on hormones. I'm also gonna make sure to keep with excercise, and try and eliminate more environmental toxins like plastic water bottles and after a month to a month and a half, see where I'm at totally on my own with doing everything right. Good sleep, the works. I'm not giving up just yet, I mean, I can find positives to going on TRT, but if I can avoid it, I much rather would.

Jelisej
08-09-2014, 06:22 AM
yeah, I dont think that things are that bad- even in past you had much worse results but they gradually improved, including your thyroid- and beleive it can happen again given, sometimes recovery takes long time- much longer than people think. And its not all just in number- personally I had "boosted" my tt levels to 800 and something and did not feel great, and I had it at around 680 and felt great, it all depends from lot of circumstances and balance of other hormones, it is how we feel that is important not numbers.

nate3993
09-11-2014, 03:45 PM
So new update, and its rather strange. I haven't been good about diet. Ive been eating like once a day. Not great about sleep. I'm more stressed out than ever 9+ hour stressful days with no lunches. Blue Cross and other insurance companies fucking over our business left and right and i haven't been getting sunlight, I've been drinking a decent amount of beer here and there, smoking weed, using some xanax here and there for stress and yet....

After not being on clomid, torem, exem, maca or anything else that could influence my hormones for over a month.....


My test results came back stellar. Eerily stellar.

Total T- 734! Highest I've EVER had.
Free T- 171! More than 4 times my previous highest and us even so high its out of range.
E2-Pending
Cortisol- 17.9- Also very good
SHGB- 28 -Also very good. Right in the middle.
DHT -Pending
LH- 3.1-Also quite good
FSH- <0.7- Its been like this on at least 3 different tests


WTF? I feel shitty. I'm gonna say Lyme disease cuz even when i go through a string string of eating better and getting quality sleep, I feel better but nothing to crow home about.

FOR SURE my Lyme has been acting up tho. Muscle Spasms. Bumping into corners of walls completely sober. And i don't mean grazing, i mean my depth perception is so bad i shoulder check walls. Numbness sensations in multiple parts of my body like an MS patient. The sensation a bug is crawling on me on different parts of my body and there's nothing there. Having moments where i just feel literally insane like i'm losing my mind. Memory has been shitty. Sometimes i get sharp shooting pain in random parts of my body or the sensation like someone just stabbed me with a needle.

Stress makes lyme worse. That's fact. So i know that's partially what's going on, I just didn't expect these tests results to be so stellar after not being on SERMS or anything for over a month. Kinda fascinating. These are the highest my testosterone has been.



Here's the only thing I've taken. Cialis. a few different times. 12.5mg once or twice, but it was weeks bfor i had the blood test and i doubt 12mg's of cilais is gonna skyrocket my free test and total testosterone.



We're gonna retest in a month to make sure they didn't mess up my bw with someone else's.



What a fukin trip huh?

Jelisej
09-12-2014, 05:12 AM
Well,try adding some magnesium. And multivitamins.
I dont think these symptoms are from lyme- maybe your ferritin (iron) is low, or thyroid hormones are getting depleted. There are other possibilities.
Try to reduce stress, improve your diet a bit- eat more than once a day.

Regarding hormones- they are probably not settled yet.