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dova
06-17-2014, 01:40 AM
Good morning,

I'm now in my second month of TRT. I take 175MG sustanon/week.
Here is my blood work. Can someone take a look at it please.
I started TRT for Generalized Anxiety Disorder and a low libido.
I feel good in my head, but the libido is not what i expected of it. It works when it's needed but that's all :o
Because my E2 = 36 i started arimidex at 0,25 EOD.
Full blood work in attachment.
RBC = 5240000 (4500000 - 6000000)
Hematocrit = 46,9 (40-54)
WBC = 4900 (4000 - 9000)
Creatinine = 1,02 (0,47 - 1,38)
Free T4 = 13,3 (12 - 22)
TSH = 1,89 (0,27 - 4,20)
T3 = not available because T4 and TSH are in range
Cortisol = 10,3 (5 - 23)
Prolactine = 7,18 (4,04 - 15,20)
E2 = 36,4 (7,6 - 42,6)
Testosterone = 813 (200 - 700)
Free testosterone = 26,7 (4 - 15)
DHT = 109 (25 - 99)
SHBG = 0,4 (0,5 - 1,5)
DHEA = 145 (120 - 380)

Thanks for your time

BoneDaddy
06-17-2014, 04:44 AM
From my untrained eye, your numbers look good to me. Where's the Vitamen D panel? A lot of people overlook vitamin D and a deficiency can cause a lack of libido. Jel would be able to help you far more than I, I'm sure he will pop in soon.

ironjulius
06-17-2014, 06:03 AM
what else are you taking? age? im on trt and had the same problems not so much low libido that i knew of at the time but after my first couple shots libido increased a lot and you might want to ask about doing test cypionate or enanthate 150mg a week

dova
06-17-2014, 06:46 AM
No vitamin D panel, but i take it as a supplement 5 days out of 7 at 5000iu/day

So, i am 38 years old.
Cyp or enanthate are not available here, only sustanon.
What do i take,
Medications :
sustanon 175mg/week
since last week arimidex 0,25 eod, because E2 = 36
omeprazol 40mg/day (stomach)
resolor (prucalopride) 1mg/day (stomach)
seroquel (quetiapine) 200mg/day before bed
Supplements :
animal pak 5 days out of 7 (morning)
vit D 5000iu 5 days out of 7 (morning)
GABA, 2 in the morning, 2 in the afternoon, 3 before bed
omega-3, 2 in the morning, 2 before bed (5 days out of 7)
animal Pm, before bed
digestive enzymes, 1 after each meal
liver tablets, 2 after each meal.

When i started trt, we begin at 125mg/week of sustanon, with no results
then we did a kickstart with 250mg sustanon, that was great. The libido was fenomenal.
We did bloodwork and test was at 1500 (way too high) and E2 was 30.
Because test was too high we dropped sustanon to 175mg/week and the results of my blood work are in my first post above. Libido started to decrease. I mean, i'ts difficult to find the drive. There is wood, but not as hard as it should be. Maybe because of higher E2 and lower SHBG?? But the arimidex does not help me for the moment.
The problem here is, that doctors don't know anything about trt. Even endo's don't know anything about it.
The doctor will help me with te medications, but i have to figure it out all by my self.

Thanks for helping me!

weekend
06-17-2014, 11:54 AM
Drop seroquel and omeprazole. Both are terrible for libido. Perhaps try to get aromasin instead of anastrozole.

ironjulius
06-17-2014, 12:38 PM
Yea i agree with weekend wing urself off the psych meds see if that helps. I did and feel great on just trt. Im at work but maybe tonight i can see if anything else comes to mind. Glad to see you researching. Have you tried viagra or cialis?

ironjulius
06-17-2014, 12:42 PM
Can you pin yourself? Try sustanon 2x aweek at 100mg that will keep t levels level

Jelisej
06-17-2014, 05:59 PM
You did not mention your injection frequency- it should be 2X or 3X a week, 3X week is best
You did not say if you are primary or secondary? It looks like you are secondary? If your secondary than you should use HCG, 250 IU 3X a week- unless you are primary- HCG would have a number of benefits, as it stimulate adrenals as well as thyroid- and you are lacking in both areas, also if starting HCG it would be wise to add some pregnenolone, preferably transdermal- later on you should start monitor progesterone levels

your ferritin levels are on low side- ferritin is basically storage of iron and is better figure than iron itself to see "iron situation"; question is if you are vegetarian or this is side effect of stomach problems/medication- in any case with low ferritin (and vit b) thyroid cannot function properly, this needs to be addressed

back to hormones- you aromatise a lot because low SHBG, and thats one of reasons why despite high-er dosage you test is in mid range (with that amount you should be in upper range)
your SHBG is low because your thyroid hormones are low plus steroid hormones also lower SHBG- answer is to boost your thyroid- HCG should do that to some extent, but its likely that you may need some thyroid maybe even some adrenal support.

It does take time to tune things a bit.... And lot of bloodworks. Another thing is- it would be wise to monitor your body temperature- first thing at morning, than few times during a day for a few weeks- that will give us a good idea how your thyroid and adrenal glands are functioning- if thyroid levels are not sufficient temp will be lower, and if adrenals are struggling blood temperature will be erratic.
Also heart rate will give some clues.

dova
06-18-2014, 10:20 AM
These are some answers to think about.
It's not possible to drop omeprazole. I have had an operation on my stomach 10 years ago. It was an operation for the backflow of acid from the stomach.
I still need the medication, otherwise i still have big problems from the backflow. (sorry, i can't find a descend translation for my problem, Dutch-Englisch).
Seroquel, i still keep in. I allready dropped 3 other psych meds. (cymbalta (ssri), rilatine, dipiperon(pipamperon)).

I pin allready 2 times a week (2 x 87,5mg).

If i'm primary or secondary? I don't know. I know my test levels allways are in the 400's.
We started trt because the psych meds are not working good for me. I read that trt could solve some psych problems. That's why the doctor want to give it a try.
I'm not a vegetarian. I eat lots of protein from eggs, beaf, fisch, cheese, whey, soy milk (i don't digest lactose). My carbs are from brown rice, brown pasta, brown bread. I don't eat vegtables. I cannot eat more than 300gr in one meal(6 times a day), due to my stomach problems. So, with my proteins and carbs, it's 300gr. No room for vegetables if i want my calories high enough to maintain muscle mass.

I aromatise a lot, that's what i taught and why i added the anastrazole at 0.25mg eod. If i start the hcg, will i not aromatise more? Should i drop the anastrazole, or keep it in? Or should i use mesterolone or nolva?
I start monitoring my body temperature and post it here.

I give you another story, so maybe you can see more of my problems.
I did a cycle of testosterone at the end of 2010. It was 500mg/week. I felt great, but after a couple of weeks i completely crashed. (to much aromatisation?). So, i quit everything. Damn, after months, i still was not recovered. I really was depressed, suicidal, lack of libido. I went to an endo. he kicked my out, i don't want to help you! The second endo did bloodwork. My test was around 330. Ok, you are in range, everything is fine. It's all in your head. 1 year later he did bloodwork again. these where my values.
RBC : 4000000 (4500000 - 6000000)
WBC : 3800 (4000 - 9000)
hematocrit : 36 (40 - 54)
TSH : 1,83 ( 0,27 - 4,20)
Free T4 : 15,4 (12 - 22)
LH : 10,3 (1,7 - 8,6)
FSH : 6,7 (1,5 - 12,4)
Prolactine : 5,07 (4,04 - 15,20)
Growth Hormone : 0,33 (<0,8)
Cortisol : 7,6 (5 - 23)
DHEA : 107 (120 - 380)
Testosterone : 238,4 (200 - 700)
The answer from the endo : Everything is fine, maybe you have had some virus!!

Jelisej
06-18-2014, 06:04 PM
The answer from your endo: "Everything is fine" could not be further from the truth, as nothing is fine-
the reason why you crashed on 500 mg testosterone, is because your body could not handle higher test. levels- basically when you topped your levels up- the demand for cortisol and thyroid hormones was higher but your body did not produce enough so you became depleted and you crashed- similar thing is happening at the moment- only bit slower.
As for "psych" problems- lot of it will be solved once you tune your hormones which will then improve neurotransmitters which will improve your mood.

One thing that bugs me; is it possible on top of your problems you're also losing blood somewhere? maybe bleeding in your stomach or/and somewhere else?
Stop taking soy milk- soy is not good. Can you eat goats milk- its much easier on stomach. I like to eat bacon- maybe it would work for you as well, it has lot of calories in 300 grams.
I beleive your digestion will improve somewhat once you tune thyroid hormones a bit.

Secondary or primary is the question, it looks like you are both- it seems that your pituary is not sending signals to adrenals to produce more adrenal hormones (your cortisol is low to the point that you're reduced to bare existence ), on other hand TSH is ok but thyroid is not producing enough, and pituary seems to be capable of raising LH but testicles dont use it efficiently- I'm bit confused to be honest... LH does come in peaks so maybe your blood was drawng during one of those episodes?

Try to add 3 X 250 IU HCG ,mon-wed-fri ( you will aromatise more with HCG so you'll need to increase AI a bit)- we dont know if that will work for you, if testicles dont work than it wont have much effect.
Also I would suggest you to decrease your testosterone dosage, try injecting 3X 40 mg for time being before or after HCG, (or alternatively you can go with 2X 60 mg)

Start taking pregnenolone, 50 mg few times a day, preferably transdermal- that should help adrenals a bit but it may help with "psych" problems- most of these problems probably stem from insufficient adrenal hormones

at some point you may try adding DHEA as well


After you try new routine, you'll have to do blood tests again after few weeks, than you may need add some thyroid hormones and maybe some more adrenal support.
Also at some point in future we may try with peptides (GHRP-s).
Also, can you get hold of aromasine/exemestane, I found its easier to control E2 than with arimidex.

ironjulius
06-18-2014, 08:51 PM
Damn Jel you have a lot of knowldege and great guy for being so helpful

weekend
06-18-2014, 09:58 PM
Seroquel causes stomach issues especially indigestion and acid reflux. I don't know what that other med is, but less meds is always better :)

Get off seroquel. You probably don't need it. And it's making you need omeprazole which is also no good.

Switch to aromasin over anastrozole.

dova
06-19-2014, 09:54 AM
Damn Jel you have a lot of knowldege and great guy for being so helpful

Yes, he is! I don't know who he is, or what he is, but his knowledge is far better dan every endo or doctor that i know.

@ weekend : the other med is resolor (prucalopride). This is for my intestines. I have 'ileus' (obstructions) in the intestines.
When i'm a little further with my hormones i try to stop the seroquel. For the moment i need it for my sleep. I'm allready pleased that i have dropped 3 other psych meds.

First of all, i'm very pleased that you guys take my problems serious! The endo says everything is fine, psych can't help me anymore. 4 psych meds and i was still not good. I'm 38, have a beautiful wife and 3 kids. I have a responsible job. And still, from my youth i have problems with low libido, depressions, anxiousness, tiredness. In my early 20's we used steroids, not much, but these were the best years so far. Now, when i'm older i still think of these days. And after reading some books (the hormone solution, dr Hertoge) i deceided to do trt. I taught it would be easy.....

I called my doctor and asked him for my report of the endo a couple years ago. they did different tests, also an mri. As mentioned before, everything was fine. I read my report of the mri and i see that they saw something that called 'rathke cleft cyst'. Maybe is that the answer for my hormone problems??

do i loose blood? i don't know what you mean with that. My theets are always bleeding. Do you mean something like that or something more severe? How do you see such things from my blood work?

When the soy is finished, i try some other milk.

I will start with hcg as you mentioned and i drop the sust to 2x60mg. Are test patches not an option for me? (3xHCG and 2xsust are 5 injections/week, ouch)

Saturday, i go to the doctor and ask him for pregnenolone and aromasin. What dosage do you prefer for aromasin to start with? Can i use progesterone instead of pregnenolone? and at what dosage?
I hope he will give me a prescription for that.
Peptides, no, he will not prescribe that.

My temperature for today :
Morning : 36,0 °C (96,8°F)
Midday : 39,9 °C (98,42°F)
Evening : 36,4 °C (97,52°F)
My heart rate in rest is always around 72
My blood pressure is always around 135/85
I train 3x/week DC style (Bodybuilding, doggcrapp) and 3x/week 15' crossfit HIT.

I can't thank you enough for you help! All of you!

Jelisej
06-19-2014, 06:16 PM
Nice to hear that you have beautiful wife and 3 kids; thats one big reason and motivation for you (and for us) to get you back on track!
I'm surprised that you can do DC training which is quite hard, and crossfit as well... Not sure if thats maybe too much for your body too handle?

Your body temp is also in contradiction as everything else, keep measuring it for a week or two, and at same time so we can make comparison.

To be honest, I dont know much about "rathke cleft cyst"- on list of sympthoms it lists visual disturbances, pituitary dysfunction and headaches. So it could be reason of one of reasons for your problems.
Now, lets get back to blood loss-bleeding gums are common with low platelet count platelets- in your test are trombocyten (from latin)- they are not really low but with your sustanon dose should be over top, and previously you were low on more less everything in your blood including hematocrit (which is formed of platelets among others)- you were basically anemic (and still you are insufficient really as ferritine is to low), and I was wondering did you also had some more bleeding, like gastrointestinal bleeding which sometimes could be hard to notice. Its maybe "egg or chicken" situation, but sometimes these things can mean some problem elsewhere- for example it can be hortage of vitamin B12 or folic acid, kidney failure, some bone disease, rheumatoid arthritis or abnormal distribution of platelets: a low platelet count may be due to a build up of platelets outside blood in enlarged spleen, - most likely its not one of these and probably connected to stomach problems/meds, but I would not exclude it either- basically what I'm trying to say is that there may be some other underlying conditions and keep an open eyes....

Back to hormones- your cortisol is low, quite low- you need to start working on your circadian rhythm, HCG may help, and pregnenolone should help somewhat as well, also pregnenolone is going to top up your progesteronel, and also preg. is powerfull neurosteroid which sometimes on its own can sort out neurotransmitters and hence have positive effect on mood and wellbeing, it should at least make things a bit better- BTW pregnenolone is available OTC, I would start both preg and HCG ASAP as I'm worried that your adrenals can drop too low, which can be very serious.
Adrenals should always be priority, than thyroid than sex hormones.

Not sure which digestive enzymes are you using, "now foods" have some decent, use enzymes before meal rather than after....

dova
06-20-2014, 07:15 AM
Dear,

Yes, i can do DC training. I'ts hard but short. I have a very bad recuperation and DC is something that works for me. When i train longer on a regular scheme, let's say 3 excersises chest 3x12, after a week or 3 i crash. Not on DC. But DC is also cruise and blast (training, not gear).
It's only a month now that i do crossfit. Since i started with sustanon. Since then i have more energy. Before sustanon it was not possible to do crossfit, i was to tired.
I have no gastrointestinal bleedings. My stomach and intestines where recently investigated. I could be the arthritis. I have beginning arthritis in my knees, schoulders, neck and elbows. A little present from my mother.
The circadian rhytm, not easy with my job as train driver. I work every hour of the day. for example : wed wake up at 05.00am, thur wake up at 04.15am, today wake up at 03.15am. Sometimes when i have a late shift we work till midnight.
I just went to the pharmacy for pregnenolone and it's only available in tablets and under prescription of a doctor. Rules in Belgium. Tomorow i go to the doctor and hope he will give me a prescription. Today my first shot of HCG.
I use 'super enzymes' from 'now foods'. i will take them before meals.

Thanks, i will keep you guys informed.

Jelisej
06-20-2014, 05:49 PM
Some links that may be of some benefit to you:

T Nation | The Truth About Metabolic Damage (http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/truth-about-metabolic-damage)


Get rid of heartburn and GERD forever in three simple steps (http://chriskresser.com/get-rid-of-heartburn-and-gerd-forever-in-three-simple-steps)


Low Stomach Acid: A Vicious Cycle (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/diet-nutrition/1287-low-stomach-acid-vicious-cycle.html)


Adrenal Fatigue and Hormone Therapy - DrLam (http://www.drlam.com/articles/adrenal_fatigue_and_hormone.asp?page=1)
Adrenal Fatigue versus Hypothyroidism - DrLam (http://www.drlam.com/articles/adrenalfatiguevshypothyroidism.asp)


Stop The Thyroid Madness (http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/)

dova
06-21-2014, 02:57 AM
Ok, Thanks,

I check these out.

Yesterday my first injection of HCG 250iu, and today my sust injection of 60mg. Let's see how this goes....

Went to the doctor this morning. He gave me a prescription of pregnenolone, but he wasn't very pleased. More medication he says. The pharmacy can make it, but with the prescription he gave me, they must make a few phone calls. Monday evening i will know if i can have pregnenolone. Here in Belgium, pregnenolone is called a 'steroïd'!

If i cannot have my pregnenolone, i make an apointment with a specialist. Dr Hertoghe is a known specialist here, but he is very expensive.

I let you guys know how it went.
Thanks

Jelisej
06-21-2014, 06:26 AM
Thierry Hertoghe is one of best in the Europe, if you can afford to see him, it may be good idea- tough tou can still try few things out before- to reduce number of visits hence the costs.
Pregnenolone you ca nget from e-bay- in rest of Europe is otc supplement, and they dont check internal post from EU, I think.

dova
06-25-2014, 07:30 AM
Finally i got a call from the pharmacy about my pregnenolone. I'm sorry sir, but you need a prescription from an endo!! Can you believe that!
First i go on a holiday for 2 weeks. When i'm back i go for my blood work. Then we see what must be done.
For now, i'm on sustanon 2x60mg/week, arimidex 0,25 E3D and HCG 250iu 3x/week.
Greetings and see you in a couple of weeks.

dova
07-11-2014, 05:44 AM
So, i'm back from holiday and this is what i find out.

I dropped the adex and the wood is returning. So, it seems that i lowered my E2 too much with adex.
I also lowered the dose seroquel to 100mg (halve the dose).

For now i take :
37,5mg sustanon eod
250iu HCG eod
no ai

My findings :
increased wood, morning wood and nighttime wood, hard as steel
no oily skin
no acne
no puffy/sore nipples
more agressive
more nervous, more anxious, this is not good.

i ordered pregnenolone today. I hope i can start with it at the end of next week. (if it's not taken by customs)

Then a week of two later i go for blood work.

ironjulius
07-11-2014, 10:43 AM
thats great brutha

Jelisej
07-11-2014, 07:48 PM
I would say these are good news, having a solid REM sleep erections is a sign that your E2 is at range but also that thyroid and adrenals are not completely "out of whack"- now, at some point its likely that REM erections will be gone- if that happens start Arimidex again but at lower dose- and you can repeat this till you get permanently good results.
It seems that HCG is working for you? Did you notice anything else to confirm this e.g increased testicle size (atrophy reversal)?

"more agressive
more nervous, more anxious" this is not unexpected tough we cant tell at the moment why is that happening it could be connected with adrenals- if they are to low or if they increase suddenly this is what happens, also your E2 may be going up raising serotonin- this also happens when people start with pregnenolone- sometimes people just cant handle it :) - usually its temporary- once it happened to me, I became very assertive, tough if someone done some kind of injustice I would turn into "Hulk", this period lasted for maybe week or two, to be honest- I thoroughly enjoyed that period.
Anyway- definitely good sign is that something is happening- even if its worse- if we know what makes thing worse we will know what makes it better.

Its also seems that lower test dose is better for your body.

How is your digestion? Any improvement? This is very important thing and we need lot of improvement here...


Other thing is- I would use pregnenolone for a few weeks before blood tests, as HCG and pregenolone dosage will depend on progesterone levels- we need to bring progesterone to the top- but not over it.

dova
07-12-2014, 01:47 AM
Thanx,

The adex dose was very low, 0.25 E3D. But it's just like i fell trough it. Take 0.25 adex, couple of hours later i got erections and a couple of hours later it was gone. We shall see how my E2 is in my next blood work.
I feel that my testicles are bigger. There is also more fluid when i ejaculate. And when my testicles are atrophied, i felt an constant ache. The ache is gone.
The pregnenolone comes in capsules of 50mg. I will start with 1 capsule in the morning for 1 week. Then i see if i should up the dose to 1 capsule in the morning and 1 at noon.

No improvement with my digestion. The doctor says it's a 'mechanical' problem that can't be fixed. After my operation, my stomach is twisted and that can't be undone.

Jelisej
07-12-2014, 06:09 AM
I would start pregnenolone with 100 mg straight away, preferably in 2 doses morning and afternoon, but alternatively you can take both capsules in morning.

It sounds that you may need another operation on your stomach, in meantime you'll have to have very frequent small meals, you may try to take enzymes 15 mins before meal.

Definitely would be much easier to use aromasin/exemestane- from my experience is much easier dosing with aromasin than arimidex- as with arimidex very often E2 goes down too much but then rebounds, and it gets difficult to gauge right dosage. Plus its much worse on cholesterol profile, and IGF-2 levels, while aromasin/exemestane does not have that much interference with two.

dova
07-13-2014, 02:01 AM
Ok,

Pregnenolone will be 100mg in 2 doses.

Another operation for my stomach is not possible. I hav a very good doctor for my stomach and we have discussed that. Another operation will give me more problems than now. It is something i have to live with. I eat small meals, 6 times a day. Enzymes i allready take.

I ask the doctor if he will prescribe me aromasin. First i let my body adapt to the pregnenolone, then i go for bloodwork. I will also wait to start aromasin until i have the results of my bloodwork. For the moment i am better without the ai then with an ai.

Jelisej
07-14-2014, 03:54 PM
OK, try taking enzymes 15 mins before meals, and also you may try to take probiotic drinks or supplements with "good bacteria" take one with 2 million cultures- that would hopefully improve your digestion and speed up things.
Also, as you dont have "space" for vegetables which are needed- you may try with drinks from vegetables- like V8.

AI dosage is best to be dosed on "how you feel"- and you are best judge of it, REM sleep erection can be used as "compass".
Symptoms are better gauge than bloodworks as blood test are not always quite accurate- from my personal experience sometimes results can be lot different from reality.
Anyway- testosterone dosage that you used before was bit too much and you had a lot of free test. that was converting to E2, basically lot of test. was ging to waste with reduced dose it does not convert too much and when you do next bloodwork (and compared to how you feel) you may adjust dosage again- if there is need.

dova
07-20-2014, 07:56 AM
My personal feeling, that's what i want to talk about.

It's now 3 weeks that i'm off the adex. Now my skin is getting more oily. Also my hair is getting fatter. I sweat more. I tried adex again. Just 1/8th of a tablet (0,125mg) and after 4 days my erections are weaker. For the moment i have no access to aromasin. I have some nolva left from a couple years ago. I will add 10mg/day and see how it feels.

I'm in my fourth day of taking pregnenolone (2 x 50mg/day). What i notice is less anxiousness, less tired during the day (no dip after lunch). And i have less joint pain! Not bad, i think.

For the moment i sleep very well. I still use 100mg seroquel before bed, but i slowely reduce the dosage.

The V8 is something to try.
Probiotics are not good for me. With probiotics i have more bacterial overgrowth. I tried it many times. When i have diarrhoea, the doctor prescribes probiotics, and every time i have gas, bloating, etc.

I will now wait a week or 2, and then i go for blood work and see how that is. But for the moment i feel pretty well.

Thanx for the support, and i will keep posting my feelings and blood work.

dova
07-27-2014, 10:24 AM
It's now a good week that i take pregnenolone (2x50mg) and nolvadex (10mg).
I must say, for the moment, i feel good. Good mood, good and strong erections day and night.
My protocol for the moment is : 37,5mg sustanon EOD, 250iu HCG EOD, 10mg nolvadex ED and pregnenolone 2x50mg/day.
At the end of the week i go for another blood test.

I just finished the book 'the life plan' from dr Jeffry Life. He don't speek of pregnenolone, but he advises DHEA. After i have the results of my blood test maybe i will try the DHEA instead of the pregnenolone and see how that will go.

Jelisej
07-27-2014, 03:46 PM
Pregnenolone converts into DHEA as well, in theory pregnenolone should cascade into all other hormones, but practically it never happens that way and usually (too) high dose raise progesterone too much. Anyway if you would swap Pregnenolone do DHEA you would top up DHEA and other hormones but your pregnenolone levels would go down, which is not a good thing especially if we consider that pregnenolone is a powerful neurosteroid and has very protective effect on brain and neurotransmitters. Other thing is DHEA has a tendency to convert to E2 a lot.
Anyway, I would appreciate if you would stick to plan, otherwise it will be very difficult for me to work things out.

Also, I dont understand why are you using nolvadex?

dova
07-30-2014, 04:13 AM
It's true, i will keep taking pregnenolone. And it's true, it works well for the mess in my brain. Why always change things? I don't know, maybe it's in our nature ;-)

Why nolvadex : i can't handle arimidex. I tried 1/8 of a tablet (0.125mg) and it felt not good. Even after 1 time, i felt that my erections are gettin weaker. For the moment i have no access to aromasin. I had some nolva left from a couple years ago and tried them. And i must say, that it goes pretty well with the nolva. Good libido, good and strong erections.

In a couple of days i go to the doctor for my bloodwork. I hope it's gone to be fine, because for the moment everything goes well.

Seroquel for the moment is 50mg before bed.

Jelisej
07-30-2014, 05:23 AM
Ok, continue taking seroquel for time being. Regarding nolvadex/tamoxifene- as far as I know it does not really lower E2 it only blocks its some of its receptors, tough it can act estrogenic in some other- and on top of that, I'm not quite sure if E2 test is accurate while using nolvadex or other SERMS, but if it works for you than I guess its ok to continue using it.

As with DHEA, optionally at some point along pregnenolone you may take some DHEA, but at later stage, as you need to do one step at the time, to see whats working and whats not working or make it worse- there is possibility that it can make you anxious, irritable etc...

dova
07-31-2014, 02:39 AM
For now, let's wait for the results of the bloodwork.

But what about my feelings : I feel that nolva is working for me. Less oily skiny and less fatty hair. But my libido is rising over the top. Horny as hell. It seems that we have a good combination of meds so far. Maybe we have to lower the dose of hcg. I think that my nuts are responding very well to the hcg, probably the problem is the pituitary that is not working good. (Rahte cleft cyst?). But for now, i leave everything like it is and wait for the results of my bloodwork.

Jelisej
07-31-2014, 06:02 AM
OK, keep this combination, and we'll see after the bloodworks- tough I'm not sure how much nolva can influence bloodworks- some say that E2 tests are incorrect while on SERMS.

dova
08-06-2014, 07:24 AM
12421243

So,

First results of my bloodwork are coming in. And it doesn't look that good i think.
RBC : 5260000 (4500000 - 6000000)
WBC : 6700 (4000 - 9000)
Lymfo : 23,3% - (24 - 40) inflamation in elbow?)
Iron : 51 - (59 - 158)
Ferritine : 17 - (30 - 400)
Sugar (glucose) : 97 (60 - 100)
Ureum (BUN): 53 + (10 - 50)
Total Cholesterol : 241 + (140 - 190)
HDL : 61 (>40)
No HDL : 180 + (<130)
LDL : 170 + (<115)
Free T4 : 17,1 (12 - 22)
TSH : 1,72 (0,27 - 4,20)
PSA : 0,82 (<2,50)
Prolactine : 11,05 (4,04 - 15,20)
E2 : 46,5 + (7,6 - 42,6)

My protocol for the moment : 37,5mg sustanon eod, 250iu hcg eod, 10mg nolvadex ed, 2x50mg pregnenolone ed.

What scares me most is my cholesterol. I never have had cholesterol in my life. Also, nothing is changed in my diet.
I see that my T4 is up from 13,3 to 17,1, but my TSH lowerd from 1,89 to 1,72
My E2 is way too high, maybe the dose nolva is too low?

Now my feelings : My head is feeling well with the pregnenolone. but now, libido is something strange. With adex i crash completely. I stopped the adex and the libido went up. I added nolva and my libido shot trough the roof for 2 weeks. Now i still take the nolva and the libido is going down. It's good, but not what it was the last 2 weeks. E2 is getting too high??

In a week i will have all the results.

Jelisej
08-06-2014, 07:10 PM
Your libido is most likely down because of nolvadex/tamoxifen. E2 is obvioulsy high because you're not taking AI but also its questionable wheter results are correct because SERM usage.

Your ferritin (and iron) was low before, now because of high demand its maybe bit lower- one of reasons is your diet (which is caused by another reasons) if you remeber I did warn you about this and diet and if you cant make any improvements you will need to add supplements- the multivitamins from Lidl are not so bad, they have right amount of iron in it, and iodine and selenium as well which is good.

Your urea (ureum) is bit high- this could be because you were dehydrated? It could be bleeding from the gastrointestinal tract- which would explain low iron/ferritin as well.
Otherwise it could mean some problems with kidneys.

Your percentage of lymphocite is low- but in most labs reference ranges are lower, usually starts at 20 %, anyway- this could be a side effect of HRT, same as RBC and platelets usually go much higher (even your RBC went up from previous result)

Your cholesterol may be high because of high demand for adrenal hormones, and problem is that cholesterol-pregnenolone process is much slower than for example cortisol being used which causes bit elevated choleterol, also arimidex usage may caused bit of elevation. We need to see rest of results, to confirm this, in any case no need to panic (at least not now)- only try to avoid high GI carbohydrates as high cholesterol and insulin is not good combination.

You did not do progesterone test you need to do this so we can compare and get definitive clues and answers- especially to gauge preg and HCG dosage increase/decrease.
Also your free T3 is missing and fT3 is thyorid hormone responsible for most of the work. Very good news about fT4 and TSH- your body is responding well, so far which will make life easier.

Also, in my opinion "feel factor" is very important, some of the "numbers" that are off are not directly connected to your test. levels and are caused by underlying issues than need to be addressed separately.

dova
08-07-2014, 09:46 AM
Thanx,

I'm looking for aromsin in tablets. Doc won't prescribe it to me. He just prescribed adex, so i have to do with it. But he won't understand that i can't handle the adex. I contacted a source, but they did not respond back to me. I hope i will have some aromasin in a week or 2.

You mentioned the 'eggs and chicken'. But can you explain why?

T3 test is not possible if T4 and TSH are in range. Something to do with insurance.

So, i will post my full diet.
Meal 1: (shake)
30gr (1,05oz) oats
60gr (2,11oz) hydrolyzed whey
40gr (1,41oz) peanut butter
25gr (0,88oz) dark chocolate (86%)
200ml (6,76 fl oz) milk without lactose

Meal 2 :
1 slice whole grain bread
50gr (1,76oz) chicken, slices
100gr (3,53oz) low fat cheese (17%)
1 can V8

Meal 3 :
3 eggs
100gr (3,53oz) salmon
little bit low fat vinaigrette

Meal 4 :
250gr (8,82oz) soft curd cheese (creamy)
little bit of flax seed oil
30gr (1,05oz) hydrolyzed whey

Meal 5 :
50gr (1,76oz) whole weat pasta or brown rice
200gr (7,05oz) red meat or chicken or fish
little bit low fat vinaigrette

OR meal 5 is : 3 eggs and 100gr (3,53oz) cheese (40%)

Meal 6 : (shake)
30gr (1,05oz) oats
60gr (2,11oz) hydrolyzed whey
40gr (1,41oz) peanut butter
25gr (0,88oz) dark chocolate (86%)
200ml (6,76 fl oz) milk without lactose

What i drink during the day :
- 1L (33,81 fl oz) water with 15gr BCAA
- 1 or 2L (33,81 or 67,62 fl oz) water extra
- 1 coffee (no caffeine) with 250ml (8,45 fl oz) milk without lactose

The supplements that i take :
- Opti-men : 2 x day
- Vit C : 3gr/day (3 x 1gr)
- Omega 3 : 2 x day 2 capsules
- Gaba : 3 capsules before bed
- Melatonin : 3gr before bed
- Super enzymes : 15' before each meal
- Dairy digest complete : 1 before the soft curd cheese
- And since today i take VISTA-Ferrum. Wich contains : Iron 28mg (200%), Folate 400mcg (200%), Vit C 180mg (225%) and Vit B12 3mcg (300%) : 1 x day

And the other medications :
- Omeprazol : 1 x 40mg before bed
- seroquel : 50mg before bed

Jelisej
08-07-2014, 04:07 PM
I'm not specialist in nutrition and it would be best if someone else comes in, as we have some guys that are top notch in that area.

As for supplements- optimen is a good, but it does not have iron- on other hand that another supplement has too much iron in itself which is not good- body needs iron to function properly but in small amounts- but other than that it is toxic for body and that is why body changes iron into ferritin for later usage- to avoid toxicity, and sometimes when person supplements with iron body senses lot of iron and starts dumping iron to avoid toxicity and person ends up with even less iron. So basically find another supplement with less iron in it, also it will take at least 2-3 months to see improvements.
Also personally I'm not fun of omega oil supplements as in reality all different "omegas" need to be in proportion, and I dont quite remeber the complete story behind but lot of specialist dont recommend using omega oils, you should get enough omega from meals (oysters, etc... even lamb meat has omega oils in it).

Also it seems to me that you have too much protein in diet (lot of folks here will disagree on this). Too many eggs as well (IMO). Also personally I would drop cheese and oats altogether- I think your digestion system cannot handle oats and therefore its likely that it is causing intestinal blockages, also (in theory) phytic acid from oats sometimes can bind minerals and cause depletion. And drop peanut butter. Honestly, IMO with your current diet- heart attack is imminent.

2gr of vitamin c is enough, unless you have serious deficiency or you can raise levels with less dose- vitamin c is an antioxidant but at higher levels it can be other way round- I think it can happen at 3 gr.

dova
08-12-2014, 05:48 AM
Thanks,

I cut the iron in 2 and see how the next bloodwork is.
I know, many proteins and fats. The oat-story is something that i will search for. I also lower the fats and proteins and implement more brown rice, sweet potatoes and brown bread.
The vit C is lowerd to 2gr

dova
08-14-2014, 10:02 AM
12491248

Finally,
Here's the rest of my bloodwork.
Cortisol : 11,2 (5 - 23)
Prolactine : 11,05 (4,04 - 15,20)
E2 : 46,5 (7,6 - 42,6)
Test : 1251 (200 - 700)
Free test : 39 (4 - 15)
DHT : 151 (25 - 99)
SHBG : 0,6 (0,5 - 1,5)
DHEA : 229 (120 - 380)
It seems that the protocol is working fine. It all works very synergistic. But i think i have to lower the dose of sustanon and hcg.

But what happend since i started trt :
I started trt for low libido, tiredness, anxiety, nervousness,... (Generalised anxiety disorder).

First : 125mg sustanon/week, it works a little. I can drop 3 meds for anxiety, but libido only raise a bit.

Second : 1 shot sustanon of 250mg : After a couple days, libido shot trough the roof. Bloodwork :
Free T4 : 18,5 (12 - 22)
TSH : 1,37 (0,27 - 4,20)
PSA : 0,64 (<2,50)
Cortisol : 8,5 (5 - 23)
E2 : 30,6 (7,6 - 42,6)
Test : 1572 (200 - 700)
Free test : 51,1 (4 - 15)
DHT : 197,5 (25 - 99)
SHBG : 0,6 (0,5 - 1,5)
DHEA : 161 (120 - 380)

Third : Lowerd the dose sustanon to 175mg/week. Libido was not what it should be. Bloodwork :
Free T4 : 13,3 (12 - 22)
TSH : 1,89 (0,27 - 4,20)
PSA : 0,76 (<2,50)
Cortisol : 10,3 (5 - 23)
Prolactine : 7,18 (4,04 - 15,20)
E2 : 36,4 (7,6 - 42,6)
Test : 813 (200 - 700)
Free test : 26,7 (4 - 15)
DHT : 109 (25 - 99)
SHBG : 0,4 (0,5 - 1,5)
DHEA : 145 (120 - 380)

Fourth : 37,5mg susta EOD + 250iu hcg EOD + pregnenolone 2 x 50mg/day + adex 0,25mg/day. The adex is something i can't handle and my libido crashes. I tried 0,125mg and i still fall trough it. So, i dropped the adex and added nolvadex 10mg/day. Finally my libido went up and trough the roof. But after a week or 2 libido goes down. Libido is still good, very good. If i can hold that libido, but lower my test levels, it would be perfect. And anxiety an nervousness is under control for the moment. Bloodwork :
Free T4 : 17,1 (12 - 22)
TSH : 1,72 (0,27 - 4,20)
PSA : 0,82 (<2,50)
Cortisol : 11,2 (5 - 23)
Prolactine : 11,05 (4,04 - 15,20)
E2 : 46,5 (7,6 - 42,6)
Test : 1251 (200 - 700)
Free test : 39 (4 - 15)
DHT : 151 (25 - 99)
SHBG : 0,6 (0,5 - 1,5)
DHEA : 229 (120 - 380)

What i have learned (i think). I can have high levels of LH, but low levels of test. If we add hcg my test levels go up. So it seems that my testicles work also. Maybe there is something wrong with the connection pituitary-testicles? (rathe-cleft cyst?).
What you think of this : 35mg susta EOD (~125mg/week) + 250iu hcg (mo + thu) + pregnenolone 2 x 50mg/day. And i think we need to find the sweet spot of E2 to get a good libido. Aromasin is ordered and i hope i have it next week.

Jelisej
08-14-2014, 11:46 AM
I agree with what are you saying, and it makes sense to lower dose- personally I always reccomend mon-wed-fri protocol which comes to 3 X a week- so try 3X30 mg of test and 3X 250 of HCG. Your SHBG is on lower side- thats why you get so much aromatisation and lot of free test- basically people with lower SHBG needs less of tot testosterone levels and vice versa, it seems that for you 800 ng/dl of tot. test will be good enough. Target for E2 is around 25, your thyroid seems to be working fine which is good, only worry is your adrenals- your cortisol is always on lower end, tough it seems that pregnenolone is working so far, I was afraid that you may "crash" but altough levels are low youre still coping- Im thinking that maybe to increase pregnenolone to 2X 100, you may even add 50 mg of DHEA to see wheter that will make any difference (lot of people say that raising DHEA levels did not bring any real improvements).
Overall, it seems that things are improving- which is a good thing and it does take time to "fine tune" things.

dova
08-15-2014, 10:14 AM
Thanks,

I will go for the 3 x a week story. And the biggest problem will be the estrogen control wich i think will have a good effect on my libido.
For the moment i will leave the pregnenolone to 2 x 50mg/day. Doc won't prescribe it and because it's illegal here in Belgium i have to buy it on the 'black market'.

Will be followed....

Jelisej
08-16-2014, 06:29 AM
You can buy pregnenolone/DHEA from UK, from the online stores, its not expensive, sometimes I use swanson brand it works fine for me. I gave you link with generic aromasin 30 tabs which should last you for more than 10 weeks- once you get right dosage aromatisation will not be as big problem as now and you will need small amounts of AI.

dova
08-17-2014, 08:41 AM
Yes, i know. Thanks for the link.
I order pregnenolone in Holland for the moment. But i'm scared for customs. Normally they don't check things when you send within Europe, but you'll never know. Aromasin i have ordered in Holland also. Normally i should receive it in the next days. These are capsules with 20mg exemestane. I will start with 10mg EOD and see how i feel.

longBallLima
08-17-2014, 09:30 AM
Jel, this might have been answered already, but I'm on my phone. Is pregnenolone OK during pct?

Jelisej
08-17-2014, 12:43 PM
Its best not to use it during PCT, possible sides outweight possible benefits- for example pregnenolone sometimes convert to progesterone too much and if your progesterone is allready too high from cycle that would make things worse.

This is old thread on that topic: Pregnenolone in PCT (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/advanced-supplement-science/517-pregnenolone-pct.html)

longBallLima
08-18-2014, 02:36 AM
Its best not to use it during PCT, possible sides outweight possible benefits- for example pregnenolone sometimes convert to progesterone too much and if your progesterone is allready too high from cycle that would make things worse.

This is old thread on that topic: Pregnenolone in PCT (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/advanced-supplement-science/517-pregnenolone-pct.html)


thanks man!

dova
08-24-2014, 12:47 AM
Finally, aromsin is in. It seems to me that estrogen control will be the most difficult part of my trt. But i can feel the symptoms now if i go too low or too high. Took 10mg of aromasin in the evening and the next day i was feeling good, lots of energy and libido. The next day i felt my hands are getting swole, libido went down. Took another 10mg in the evening, but today i still feel the swelling of the hands. For now i will try 10mg each day and see how it goes.

I also upped the dose of pregnenolone to 100mg in the morning and 50mg at noon.

dova
08-27-2014, 03:34 AM
Update :

Now i'm on 3 x 30mg sustanon, 250iu HCG 3 x per week and aromasin 10mg ED. Libido is good, not extreme. Wood is hard and stays hard.

But since i upped the dose pregnenolone to 150mg/day i feel more anxious and more brain fog. I think this dose is too high for me. I give it another week and if it's not better i lower the dose back to 100mg/day.

dova
09-04-2014, 10:28 AM
I dropped the dose of pregnenolone to 100mg/day. I couldn't handle it. More anxious, more brain fog, more nervous, but also too happy. Yes, too happy. I was just like someone with ADHD. Back to 100mg now, and it's better for me. It feels better.

I also ordered dhea 25mg and i add 1 in the evening and see how that goes. I start today with the dhea.

Jelisej
09-04-2014, 03:48 PM
OK, its impossible for us to tell how much to dose pregnenolone (and DHEA), especially without bloodworks. The main battlefield is withing your adrenals and most of symptoms are coming from that side, so in my opinion it would be better to do one things at the time- basically you should have set right pregnenolone dose and then add DHEA according to blood results. Tough from my experience DHEA does not do that much, except in larger dose when it converts to estrogen a lot.

dova
09-09-2014, 02:50 AM
Bloodwork will be done in 2 months. Doc want to wait for the moment.
In a previous post you told me to try 2 x100mg of pregnenolone and maybe add dhea at 50mg. I tried 150mg pregnenolone a day for about 2 weeks and i couldn't tolerate it. I was like someone with adhd. The feeling was not good. So now i'm back on 2x50mg pregnenolone per day and dhea 25mg in the evening. for the moment, the feeling is good. So, i like to stay on this for the next 2 months and the see what the bloodwork say.
I will keep posting my feelings.
I also dropped the resolor (prucalopride) and for the moment the stomach is doing well.

dova
09-13-2014, 09:28 AM
Ok, here i'm again with an update.
It seems that Jelisej is right, again!
But only if you try for yourself, you can actually feel what it is.
The first days of DHEA where good, but after that i felt more anxious and nervous again.
The same happened when i upped the dose of pregnenolone to 150mg. Still it was not the same feeling.
With dhea there was more anxiousness and nervousness. With higher doses of pregnenolone there was also a feeling of more happiness and some adhd feelings.
Now i'm back on 2x50mg pregnenolone a day and i'm feeling good. Not super, it can better than this, but it's way better than it was before any treatment.
It seems that higher doses of pregnenolone and dhea raise my levels of dhea more than i can handle.

Jelisej
09-13-2014, 03:32 PM
Well, the best thing is that so far your adrenals are still coping, there was not crash as we feared. At the moment main thing is to find right dosage of testosterone, to avoid excessive aromatisation but to keep free test. at good levels. pregn. and DHEA dosage is to be gauged at future, and after that we can try to work bit more on neurotransmitters and "psych" side- but it will be while till that point. Its important to do one step at the time.
Also, hopefully your doc will do bit more extensive bloodworks, if not than it would be good idea to do some extra test by yourself, same day, actually best clinic for bloodworks in Europe is in Belgium- Hertoghe uses that one.

Back to preg. and DHEA- one of likely reasons what happens when you go with higher doses is that probably your thyroid hormones (fT3 I think) are not sufficient enough, so they dont metabolise properly, or better said they dont cascade into other hormones properly. That would be my guess, we'll se in future what happens.

dova
09-15-2014, 09:57 AM
Thanks,

Lets say that the "psych"-side is the best in 8 years. I can always better, but for the moment i feel good.
Can you explain what you mean with the crash from the adrenals. Or what symptoms i would have if i crashed.

Bloodwork is important to know where you are, but i find feelings also very important.
Hope the doc will do further extensive bloodwork. I'll ask for it.

You mentioned the thyroid. What i learned the last months is that all the things that are working with my pituitary are on the low side of normal before treatment. test, adrenals and thyroid. Maybe the rathe-cleft cyste has something to do with it. I'm sorry, i hope you understand what i want to say, but i can't exactly explain in English and google translate is not the best option for such translations ;-)

Jelisej
09-15-2014, 04:04 PM
"Bloodwork is important to know where you are, but i find feelings also very important. "- I agree on that but to get to the point where you can do things by "how you feel" you need to have lot of experience otherwise things can go very wrong , very often is hard to "understand" where some symptoms are coming from, and some issues dont present strong symptoms till very end, and on top of that people have different symptoms- and sometimes two extremes can have same symptoms- for example in my case (and some other folks) both low and high E2 usually have same symptoms.

" What i learned the last months is that all the things that are working with my pituitary are on the low side of normal before treatment"- yes, now we can conclude that you are secondary, and your pituary function seems impaired- for example thyroid levels did increase somewhat tough response should have been better, and it remains to be seen in future what will happen and what scenario will be best for you.

"Can you explain what you mean with the crash from the adrenals. Or what symptoms i would have if i crashed." - basically you would feel really bad, really weak, fatigued in worst case you would maybe even collapsed or end up in emergency- If I remeber you said that something like that happened to you in past.
I think that reducing testosterone and adding pregnenolone helped here a bit, tough danger is still present.

Bottom line of what I'm trying to say is that there are still too many dangers and pitfalls which can undo all benefits or make things even worse- so please be carefull, dont get to carried away, dont experiment too much, dont make quick decisions..... Be patient.

As for English- I do understand you perfectly well, also English is not my first language either.

"Lets say that the "psych"-side is the best in 8 years. I can always better, but for the moment i feel good."- this is what I like to hear, and that also what motivates me- I think and hope that things will be event better.

dova
09-18-2014, 11:10 AM
I agree on that but to get to the point where you can do things by "how you feel" you need to have lot of experience otherwise things can go very wrong , very often is hard to "understand" where some symptoms are coming from, and some issues dont present strong symptoms till very end, and on top of that people have different symptoms- and sometimes two extremes can have same symptoms- for example in my case (and some other folks) both low and high E2 usually have same symptoms. What i want to say about the 'E2-feeling'. I never had extreme levels of E2. I started with adex and i feel i go down, down, and even more down. First i start to notice that my erections are getting stronger, then i go lower and my libido is gone, dry skin, dry hair, stiff joints. I stop the ai and after a couple of days, sometimes a week or more, my libido is returning, my joints are more flexible. after some time my skin is more oily, hair is more oily. And at the time my hands are swelling, the erections get weaker but libido remains. That for me is the point where my E2 gets too high. I don't know any blood values, i can't predict them, but that is my feeling about E2. Of course we need the know where we are.

basically you would feel really bad, really weak, fatigued in worst case you would maybe even collapsed or end up in emergency- If I remeber you said that something like that happened to you in past.
I think that reducing testosterone and adding pregnenolone helped here a bit, tough danger is still present. Have not felt these symptoms yet. Luckily. I was in emergency, but not with these issues. It was after i stopped the cymbalta (duloxetine) without tapering down.

Bottom line of what I'm trying to say is that there are still too many dangers and pitfalls which can undo all benefits or make things even worse- so please be carefull, dont get to carried away, dont experiment too much, dont make quick decisions..... Be patient. Yes, i will. For the moment i stay on the same protocol. The difficult part for me, i think, is the E2-control. And in 6 weeks i have another bloodwork.

Little story how my doctor thinks. I was with him last thuesday for my prescriptions and every time he must tell me that he normally don't prescribe that stuff, but that he keeps prescribing them because i feel good with them. We are the same age (39) and he understands that i otherwise don't have a life. Just able too work and for the rest of the day washed out in the sofa. Full of antidepressants, no libido, suicide feelings....
So, i asked him what do you do if i was very obese. I tell hem high blood pressure, you give me medication. High cholesterol, you give me medication. Too much sugar in my blood, you give me medication. Yes, he told me, because you need them. I need these medications, i tell him, because i have fucked up my body with a bunch of crap food. Yes, so you give me medication, so that i can keep going with that life-style. He agreed.
I asked him why are you so afraid to prescribe hrt. The answer was, your bloodwork never showed a shortage. Agree, i'm always on the lower side with my hormones. They call it low normal. So, i tell him that i have values of a good 70 year old man. Because you think i'm in range i must feel like a 70 year old men? I still wait for his answer, but i have my prescriptions.

dova
09-24-2014, 09:28 AM
It's me again.

This week some problems with my boss at work. He does not want to give me the promotion i deserve.

In the morning, i'm anxious, nervous and pissed off because of that problem. It's always in my head. (i take 50mg of pregnenolone in the morning).
At noon, i take my second dose of pregnenolone and 1 hour later i'm more relaxed, less nervous, more the feeling of 'kiss my ass'.
Probably something to do with the second dose of pregnenolone?

Someone can explain this to me why this happens (cortisol - dhea levels?)and can give me advise of the dose pregnenolone or something else.
But remember that i tried 100mg in the morning and 50 mg at noon and it was too much for me.

Thanks

Jelisej
09-24-2014, 04:06 PM
I think without extensive blood tests both in morning and in afternoon its hard to tell, as there are so many variables involved- hormones (especially adrenal) then neurotransmitters etc...
Possible explanations is that your cortisol is too low in morning and it peaks up a bit in afternoon which calms you down, other possibility is that pregnenolone dose in morning top up pregnenolone and then gets bit converted to progesterone in afternoon- and progesterone does have calming effect on brain, even calming and sometimes it can have similar effect to bromo-diazepams and for that reason can even reduce libido (which bromo-diazepans very often do).

Again, this is a guesswork- best thing at the moment is to play with pregnenolone- to see what works best for you, you may try multiple doses a day etc....


P.S.: For God's sake, why are you wearing red miniskirt?

dova
09-25-2014, 09:56 AM
Thanks,

I play with the dose pregnenolone and see what works best for the moment.
Begin november i have new bloodwork.

P.S.: For God's sake, why are you wearing red miniskirt? Don't you like my new outfit? :o

dova
10-08-2014, 08:50 AM
Finally, a hard week is past. And i survived it. I started with 100mg pregnenolone in the morning and it really works like a benzo. But with no side-effects for me. In the afternoon the effect faded away and i still felt ok. For now, i'm back on 50mg in the morning and 50mg at noon and everything is allright.
With trt i can keep my head together, and i don't crash like before. Big improvement, i must say.
Thanks for the support everybody!!

dova
10-12-2014, 12:36 AM
Not doing so well for the moment.
I still was taking 50mg of seroquel (quetiapine) before bed.
Thursday i decided to drop it.
It's sunday now and i feel like shit.
Can't sleep, 30' to 1 hour and than i'm awake very anxious. A couple of hours later i sleep again for 30' to 1 hour..... No dreams also.
Also a very tight back. I feel nauseous, don't have hungry.
I take gaba, valerian, melatonin, but nothing seems to help for this moment.
I give it another week. If it's not better, i start the seroquel again.

But what i experience during the nights is that i'm extreme horny and have rock hard erections. Why, i don't know.

Jelisej
10-12-2014, 04:35 PM
Keep taking seroquel for time being, first you need to fine tune hormones and some other stuff before moving into this area, there are still lot of unresolved issues (ferritin levels, adrenals etc), and I'm afraid that it will take time to get to that point, and also its questionable wheter us from this forum will be able to help you with that, as that area of science is not researched well enough, but as I said there are lot of things to be done beforehand,
and please dont experiment too much and dont stop taking meds "cold turkey" as these things rarely work well, and sometimes can be dangerous.

dova
10-13-2014, 06:54 AM
Thx,
I was planning to start seroquel again this evening. It is not bearable for the moment. Last night i slept 3h and then get up to go to work.
It was not a cold turkey stop, i was coming from 200mg and dropped 50mg at a time.

Maybe hormones can't solve this problem and it is a short circuit in my brain.
it's very strange, during the day i'm pretty relaxed, in the evening i get tired. Once in my bed, my heart start racing, my head works like crazy. Why? i don't know and i can't stop it.
But if i'm good with my trt and only 50mg of seroquel to get a good night, why not take it.
It's better than 4 meds of antidepressants and still feel like shit.

Before i started trt i was taking 4 antidepressants and i still was very nervous, headaches, anxious, suicidal, depressions,lack of libido, my whole body felt tight and no sleep.
now, with trt and 50mg seroquel, i still am nervous, but i have more resistance to it, no more depressions, no more suicidal, no more headaches, my body is more relaxed and libido is good. nights are pretty good. When i stopped the seroquel, the anxiousness came back and my body felt tight again. Once at noon i felt better and i tought, ok it's over. But once in bed, it all started over. Strange. next month, i talk to my psychiatrist about it and also begin next month, bloodwork again.

I also have a little fever for the last days. Don't know why. is it because i stopped the seroquel? Because i have a little cold? (the cold is so little that i don't think this is what gives me fever). But i eat, work and train. Hopefully, it doesn't mess with my bloodwork.

Jelisej
10-13-2014, 04:02 PM
Well, hormones do have a very strong influence on neurotransmitters which (neurotransmitters) I think is underlying cause of your nervousness and mental issues. There is some influence from way you thinking/feeling- when you get some unwanted toughts of any kind try to tackle them- basically you need to question your toughts, evaluate, where are they coming from and what is bringing them? Slowly it will change thinking pattern which should help somewhat with your general situation, as for completely sorting problem- one needs to sort out chemical imbalances in brain which again is very complex thing but eventually you'll get to that point- sorting out all other issues will lead to big improvement and reduction in anxieties and other symptoms.

dova
10-16-2014, 08:16 AM
Back on track. Now 2 days that i take my seroquel and i'm ok. The fever is also gone.
Changing the thinking process : easier said then done. That's the problem with generalized anxiety disorder. i saw different psychologist and none of them where able to help me. Just one was honest with me. She asked me : you must stop your unwanted toughts, how you gonna do it? I say, i don't know, that's why i'm here. She : We learn to say in school that you must stop thinking about negative toughts. She asked her professor how? She is still waiting for his answer. There is a problem with neurotransmitters, for sure. I took cymbalta (ssri). It worked, but i had too many sides of it. A normal dose of cymbalta is 60mg even up to 120mg. I couldn't handle more than 20mg and i still had problems with ejaculations. And with the low test levels it was a complete disaster. with the test and pregnenolone now, the depressions and suicidal toughts are gone. Erections and ejaculations are good. The anxiety is still present. Not so severe as it was but it's bearable. I have more resistance to it. Could i cure completely? i don't think so. But if i can hold it like it is now, it would be great.

dova
11-05-2014, 08:51 AM
So, what's up,
Yesterday have some blood drawn. In a week i have the results.
For the moment still feeling good, but what is changed the last months.
Pregnenolone is back to 50mg/day. 100mg/day (2x50) gives me a headache. Don't know why. Tried several times to go back to 100mg, but the headache still comes back. And the 50mg, i take them before bed. This seems to be working best for me.
I also take no AI for the moment. Even the smallest amount of adex or aromasin crashes my libido. Let's see how my E2 is.
So, i take sustanon 30mg, 3x/week. HCG 250IU 3x/week and pregnenolone 50mg/day.
The last time blood was drawn, i had some problems with my cholesterol. The forum told me, it could be the problem of the high fats, high prots and the low carbs i ate. I changed my macro's to 50/35/15 (C/P/F). The feeling is not that good with it. Gained some fat. No big deal. But, i have more acid burns, gas bloating, bad taste in my mouth and a bad breath. The poo is not as solide as before. I'm also more prone to hypo's. I'm now reading 'the metabolic diet' from dr. Mauro Dipasquale and i think i will give this a try. It's a cyclic keto diet.
Today i still have no depressions, no suicidal toughts and a good libido. The anxiety disorder i still around, but bearable. The anxiety disorder will probably not be solved with hrt, but i have my life back after 8 years of suffering.

dova
11-25-2014, 04:38 AM
13141315

Finally results are in. Something went wrong. Did not receive the full test. DHT is missing. Not much of a problem i think, because all male hormones are low.

Protocol before blood drawing was : sustanon 3x30mg/week, HCG 3x250iu/week, AI by feeling, pregnenolone 1x50mg/day (2x50mg gives me a headache).
Because of the low value of testoterone, i upped the dosis sustanon to 3x35mg/week.
I did AI by feeling and it worked very well. But i did not felt that my E2 was too high, but i probably felt that the T/E ratio decreased with gave me the feeling of high E2. E2 was way too low, but i did not felt it.

RBC : 5810000 + (4000000 - 5800000)
WBC : 4200 (4000 - 9000)
Iron : 147 (59 - 158)
Ferritine : 37 (30 - 400)
Glucose : 104 + (60 - 100)
BUN : 37 (10 - 50)
Cholesterol : 146 (140 - 190)
HDL : 48 (>40)
No HDL : 98 (<138)
LDL : 88 (<115)
Free T4 : 19,4 (12 - 22)
TSH : 1,37 (0,27 - 4,20)
Cortisol : 9,3 (5 - 23)
Prolactine : 7,33 (4,04 - 15,20)
E2 : 6,1 - (7,6 - 42,6)
Testosterone : 356 (200 - 700)
Free testosterone : 9,1 (4 - 15)
DHT : not available
SHBG : 0,6 (0,5 - 1,5)
DHEA : 186 (120 - 380)

Cholesterol and iron are back in range. Cholesterol was on the lower end this time.
One thing that worries me a bit is blood sugar (glucose) that is a little too high.......

Jelisej
11-25-2014, 05:02 PM
Your glucose was never that good, and is connected to insufficient glucocorticoid levels- which was your main issue.
Overall, I think this bloodworks show a lot of improvement, altough I'm pretty sure that you will not agree with me, anyway- I can agree with little increase in testosterone dose, but bear in mind that because your low SHBG testosterone levels dont need to be high, also higher levels would again deplete your body of nutritiens, you would probably get anxieties etc...
Also, altough at the moment your androgen levels seems very low, its not quite that bad- they are low but not as it seems as they are being used up a lot better and lot of more efficient- so yes you need a bit of increase, I can agree with 3X35 but dont go over that, for time being.

I hope that now you learned that you cant always predict things how you feel.

dova
11-27-2014, 03:23 AM
Yes, i agree with you. Bloodwork is much better than last time. Thyroid seems to be working fine. But, here we go, i ask alot of questions, because i want to know how it works what i do.
And, i always did what you told me. Some times it is not always possible to do that. Doc won't prescribe it, or it is illegal in my country. Or, like pregnenolone that i have to drop to 1x50mg because of the headache.

So, still the adrenals. These should be the reason that i have higher glucose levels. What can we do about it to decrease glucose levels?

Ok, i agree that i don't need sky high levels of testosterone, but 356 is a bit low i think. Like i learned, low shbg, high E2 and very hard to control for me. I don't need to be a horny bull.

What i think, please correct me if i'm wrong : low test (356) and very low E2 (6) felt not bad. High T/E ratio. I took a low dose AI if i felt that my libido decreased. Probably E2 increased, T/E ratio decreased. E2, needs to be between 20 - 30. But if i have lower levels of test. Let's say 400-500. Will my libido not be gone because of the lower T/E ratio?

I agree that you not always can predict things. Some times you have to go by feelings. It's not possible everytime i feel good or bad, to go by the doctor to draw some blood. I'm happy that he did bloodwork every 2-3 months.

Thanks for your help, i really appreciate it!!

Jelisej
11-27-2014, 04:59 PM
Yes, 356 ng/dl is low, but as you noticed your thyroid is working fine meaning that your metabolic rate has increased- your adrenal hormones cortisol is also low but on positive note body is still coping and overall even if numbers dont seems to be changed- in reality output has increased, and your hormones are being used up efficiently- and trick is to find dose that your body will able to sustain without problems like ferritin depletion or adrenal crash/depletion as I think its best to avoid synthetic cortisol as it is quite nasty thing IMO, it has to be dosed often, it has sides especially if given too much, and one feels as zombie if insufficient.

Libido itself is a strange animal, there are lot of factors involved in that, including mental side- E2 has a definitive effect on it, testosterone (mostly free testosterone), DHT and number of other hormones. Usually if E2 is in range and free testosterone is good libido is fine- I think that free testosterone is one to watch, rather that tot. testosterone or T:E ratio.

In yur case as SHBG is low your free testosterone will be high even with moderate tot. testosterone levels, whilst someone with high SHBG will need higher levels- I've seen people with very high SHBG some og them had a tot. test over 800 ng/dl but libido was still low- as free test. was low.

Eventually, glucose should settle itself down, I think you doing everything that you can anyway, so just carry on.

dova
11-29-2014, 10:15 AM
Ok, thanks.

One last question. Why do you want to raise my cortisol levels? On bodybuildings sites, they always want to lower cortisol, because it's a catabolic hormone. For nervousness and anxiety?
Maybe i can try 75mg pregnenolone, and see if i have no headache from it?

And finally i received the results of DHT : 35 ng/dl (25 - 99)

Jelisej
11-29-2014, 04:58 PM
"On bodybuildings sites, they always want to lower cortisol, because it's a catabolic hormone" - I have not visited bodybuilding sites recently, but I beleive that they changed their mind about cortisol, which used to be touted as a bad boy- and in reality even bodybuilding wise- you need catabolism- basically point of exercise IS to break muscles, as then they will be repaired and made better, other than bodybuilding- cortisol is important for probably every process in body- without cortisol neither thyroid nor other hormones are being used etc... For example even when bodybuilders overtrain- most of symptoms are because of low cortisol ( feeling like zombie, sleepy, demotivated etc...) Another problem with low cortisol is that body than uses adrenaline to fill the gap and adrenaline is one that causes lot of problems.

dova
12-01-2014, 04:42 AM
It does more than only being catabolic... Thanks for the explanation!

dova
02-14-2015, 10:19 AM
Still alive, barely for the moment. Already 3 days in bed with the flu.
Otherwise, protocol is still the same. 3 x 35mg of sustanon/week, 3 x 250iu of hcg/week and 50mg of pregnenolone/day. I feel pretty good with this. No more depressions and no more suicidal toughts. Libido is fine. No horny bull, but it works when i need it.

Some other things i want to share with you.
Before taking an iron supplement i had low ferritin and iron levels. Doc told me that its a normal symptom after my operation for acid reflux and oesophagitis.
Rbc and hematocrit are a little high. I went to the red cross for donating blood. I have a lifetime ban because of the operation for acid reflux. Risk factor for cancer.
My glucose is always a little high. I think the problem is te seroquel that i take before bed time. If i replace the seroquel with xanax my levels drop with 10 to 20 points. Also, during the day are my levels lower than after waking up. In 2 weeks i have an appointment with my psych. See what she has to say.

Thans and have a nice weekend!

dova
02-17-2015, 01:44 AM
Metabolic Changes Associated With Antipsychotic Use (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC487012/)

The use of atypical antipsychotics may also place patients at risk for a complicated disorder known as metabolic syndrome.

The use of antipsychotics increases the risk not only of diabetes but also of metabolic syndrome, which is sometimes referred to as syndrome X

Jelisej
02-17-2015, 04:59 PM
Seems that hormones are getting more stable, which is good.

Another thing you can now try is to start taking some phospholipids before sleep if it works you may be able to lower your seroquel dosage.
There was product called EndoAmp Max that was really good, and its dosing was good.

This is old thread that may be helpful to you if you want to make your own alternative of endoamp:
endoamp alternative? (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/supplements/1307-endoamp-alternative.html)

dova
02-19-2015, 03:52 AM
Thanks,

i'll check them out.

dova
02-22-2015, 04:01 AM
Damn,

I'll pass on this.

Endoamp is not available here. So, i looked for the ingredients. This is extremely expensive.
- Phosphatidylserine : 24,50eur, 90caps, 100mg (endoamp has 800mg)
- Alpha GPC : 29,90eur, 60caps
- Lecithine : 9eur, 100caps
And, i need 3 stores to buy it....

Let's see what the psych has to say next thuesday,.....

dova
03-03-2015, 10:21 AM
Ok,

Went to the psych last thuesday. Normally seroquel at such low dose could not interfere with glucose. But she gave me serenase (lorazepam). I tried it and stopped the seroquel. No result. Glucose didn't drop en sleep was very poor. 3 hours a night is way too less. Now i'm at 50mg seroquel and 1mg lorazepam. Sleep is very good. Glucose is still high.

The weirdest thing about my glucose is that it during the day barely rises or drops. Fasted, before lunch, after lunch, it's always between 105 en 115. My diet is full keto. I eat barely 5% carbs a day. Glucose don't move. Before my last bloodwork i was eating perfectly clean. 55%carbs, 30%protein and 15% fat. My glucose didn't move. The carbs were from brown rice, brown spaghetti, sweet potatoes, oats,... The only problem was the stomach, wich can't handle carbs properly.

You mentioned phosphatidylserine, but it's very expensive here. What do you think of adrenocharge from gaspari?

dova
03-18-2015, 07:08 AM
Something stupid happend, i'll try to explain. I did my amps of sustanon in a bottle of 10ml and i took 0,14ml (35mg), 3 times a week.
Bottle was empty, went to the doc for my prescriptions and he told me that it was impossible that my 10ml was allready gone.
What went wrong. I measured from the top of the needle to 0,14ml. I was injecting much more than 35mg. :(

1406

So, he gave me a prescription for 1ml (250mg) at once. I tested it and after app. 3 syringes the bottle was empty!
I'm now taking 125mg/week in 3 injections with correct measurment. Same for the hcg. It's now correct, 250iu, 3 times/week.

1407

Today, i went to the doc for blood drawing. In a week or 2, i have all my results.

I ordered phosphatidylserine. It's 100mg/capsule. Let's give it a try.

I tried the lorazepam, but it worked not very well for me. (the first days it was good, adaptation i think). I'm back on the seroquel at 75mg/day.

dova
05-01-2015, 01:49 AM
14301431

RBC : 5620000 (4000000 - 5800000)
WBC : 5100 (4000 - 9000)
Iron : 195 + (59 - 158)
Ferritine : 89 (30 - 400)
Glucose : 87 (60 - 100)
BUN : 29 (10 - 50)
Cholesterol : 268 + (140 - 190)
HDL : 63 (>40)
No HDL : 205 + (<138)
LDL : 193 + (<115)
Free T4 : 17,7 (12 - 22)
TSH : 1,31 (0,27 - 4,20)
Cortisol : 12,3 (5 - 23)
Prolactine : 5,69 (4,04 - 15,20)
E2 : 17,7 (7,6 - 42,6)
Testosterone : 910 + (200 - 700)
Free testosterone : 21,1 + (4 - 15)
DHT : 64,7 (25 - 99)
SHBG : 1,0 (0,5 - 1,5)
DHEA : 178 (120 - 380)

Finally, here we are.
It seems that my blood is in good condition, except for my cholesterol.
Hormones seems to be working fine. And it feels wright.
Blood was taken the day after injection.
I'm taking sustanon 125mg/week (divided into 3 injections), HCG 250iu 3 times/week, pregnenolone 50mg each day, no AI.
The cholesterol is probably f*cked up because of the keto diet. (80% fat, 15% proteins and 5% carbs).
For the cholesterol i now take 'choledoc', a natural statin made of red fermented rice. (3 times/week).

About my stomach : I have difficulty to ingest lactose and carbs. i'm flatulent and have dyspepsia of them. Why the carbs, i still don't know. Even brown rice, oats, sweet potatoes gives me problems. fibres or starch?
With the keto diet my stomach feels much better, almost cured i must say.
But because of the cholesterol issue, i switched i to higher proteins, moderate fats and low carbs. My stomach is still better than with higher carbs, but not as good as on the keto diet.

phosphatidylserine : i take 600mg before bed and still 75mg of seroquel. Is it worth the money? I still cannot tell for sure. I still wake up frequently. I have less vivid dreams and i don't have to get out of bed anymore to pee. I think i'm less suspicious during the day. But, it's not strong enough to lower the dose seroquel. Maybe i have to increase the dose of phosphatidylserine and see what happens.
Why the seroquel? For generalized anxiety disorder, witch in my case means that my brain don't stops working. Even when i'm sleeping my brain don't shuts down. It works at full speed, that's why i still wake up and why i'm so anxious at night.
I tried a supplement (yes with the phosphatidylserine and the seroquel) witch contains phenibut, icariin, valerian, oleuropein, l-thryptophan, phosphatidylserine, l-theanine and vitamin B6. i take 2 capsules of it, but it's not much better for me. My wife takes 1 capsule and after 30 minutes she is knocked out for the rest of the night.

Best regards,

BBG
05-01-2015, 02:05 AM
P-serine is definitely a good supplement. Not something you necessarily feel a ton from but it helps in general with memory, mood, etc... And more resistance to stress. A really good dietary source is actually chicken hearts.

Your cholesterol is actually fine. Because your triglycerides are low, high LDL is fine. Your hdl is good too.

dova
05-02-2015, 06:43 AM
Chicken hearts, don't let me think of it :eek:

So cholesterol is fine. I can go back on the keto-diet. Maybe some adjustments in the fats.

Thx, have a nice weekend!