Going with epistane

[Strong_Guy]

So I think I'm going to give epistane a try later this fall, stacked with dermacrine. I've read repeated great raves about this stack and been wanting to try it for a while. Been going with a keto style diet and seeing great results, want to give it a while longer then go for a solid recomp with this cycle in another month or two. Thing is I've only ever used DHEA based products (for the last 3-4 years) so this is a significant choice to me. Just looking for a little input and general advice from others' experiences regarding epi:

Some questions I can think of:

As far as brand, IBE vs RPN, or other? Cycle length and dose? (I'm thinking 20/30/40/40 or something similar, maybe extend to five weeks) Thoughts on pulsing? OTC PCT enough? Any other pointers?

Stats:

32 yo, 6'00", 197 lbs, ~12% bf

Thanks for any input!

[Freepressright]

So I think I'm going to give epistane a try later this fall, stacked with dermacrine. I've read repeated great raves about this stack and been wanting to try it for a while. Been going with a keto style diet and seeing great results, want to give it a while longer then go for a solid recomp with this cycle in another month or two. Thing is I've only ever used DHEA based products (for the last 3-4 years) so this is a significant choice to me. Just looking for a little input and general advice from others' experiences regarding epi:

Some questions I can think of:

As far as brand, IBE vs RPN, or other? Cycle length and dose? (I'm thinking 20/30/40/40 or something similar, maybe extend to five weeks) Thoughts on pulsing? OTC PCT enough? Any other pointers?

Stats:

32 yo, 6'00", 197 lbs, ~12% bf

Thanks for any input!

I felt great on this combo. Libido was insane. Only cycle that ever felt better was trestolone.

I used RPN Havoc, for what it's worth.

[Strong_Guy]

I felt great on this combo. Libido was insane. Only cycle that ever felt better was trestolone.

I used RPN Havoc, for what it's worth.

I was leaning towards Havoc, there seems to be quite a bit of positive feedback about it.

[Strong_Guy]

I'm also looking for suggestions for cycle support as well. This will be my first time taking a methyl, so that part is a bit new for me. Plan is to run derm for about 8 weeks for the duration, start lver support supp two weeks prior to beginning epi, and finish the last 4-5 weeks with the epi cycle.

[Freepressright]

I'm also looking for suggestions for cycle support as well. This will be my first time taking a methyl, so that part is a bit new for me. Plan is to run derm for about 8 weeks for the duration, start lver support supp two weeks prior to beginning epi, and finish the last 4-5 weeks with the epi cycle.

Aegis is the gold standard of liver protection, and you don't need to pre-condition with it. If you're going to go with high doses of milk thistle, I strongly advise a two-week loading period before you begin your cycle.

I ran hawthorn berry for BP, knowing Epi can spike BP. But you must also pre-load hawthorn for a couple weeks because it causes BP spikes before it starts lowering it. Other than that I took fish oil in fear of dry joints from the Epi, but the pregenolone in the Dermacrine probably took care of that problem on its own. Still, I like daily fish oil therapy because it helps with lipid protection.

[SoCal-Nutrition]

For the price, there's no reason to use Havoc anymore...RPN no longer makes it and now it's more expensive than plenty of great brands.

IMO: Epi-Strong (socal-nutrition.com/MR-Supps-Epi-Strong) by MR Supps is the best deal on EPI (with the promo we're currently running this week, it's an even better deal).

for cycle support I recommend you look at Damage Control by LGI (http://socal-nutrition.com/lgi-damage-control)

[Freepressright]

For the price, there's no reason to use Havoc anymore...RPN no longer makes it and now it's more expensive than plenty of great brands.

IMO: Epi-Strong (socal-nutrition.com/MR-Supps-Epi-Strong) by MR Supps is the best deal on EPI (with the promo we're currently running this week, it's an even better deal).

for cycle support I recommend you look at Damage Control by LGI (http://socal-nutrition.com/lgi-damage-control)

That shows you how long it's been since I ran it. I presumed Havoc was still on the market and reasonable. It was cheap when I bought it, but again, we're talking about almost four years ago now.

[SoCal-Nutrition]

That shows you how long it's been since I ran it. I presumed Havoc was still on the market and reasonable. It was cheap when I bought it, but again, we're talking about almost four years ago now.

Yeah, I was bummed when Matt was forced to close RPN. there's someone licensing havoc now, but it's the same bottle as when RPN ... I can guess who's making it now, but I haven't bothered to confirm.

[Strong_Guy]

Hey thanks guys; can always count on this forum for good advice! Any suggestions on a good OTC PCT? There's a lot out there that seem pretty solid. Not sure how much shutdown can be expected from a derm/epi cycle. I always liked PP's TRS when it was available, recently Forerunner's Reboot has been my staple, just wasn't sure if it would be enough. I know a SERM is the most recommended route, but I have to keep it OTC.

[Freepressright]

Hey thanks guys; can always count on this forum for good advice! Any suggestions on a good OTC PCT? There's a lot out there that seem pretty solid. Not sure how much shutdown can be expected from a derm/epi cycle. I always liked PP's TRS when it was available, recently Forerunner's Reboot has been my staple, just wasn't sure if it would be enough. I know a SERM is the most recommended route, but I have to keep it OTC.

I'd tell you "PCT" by Prescription Nutrition, but it looks like they just shut down. Unless Wesley at Gym-n-Tonic stocks it, you might be SOL. Personally I would never run Epistaine without a SERM for PCT. It shut me down HARD. I didn't use a SERM at the time, just PP's TRS and my libido was non-existent for about two weeks after cessation. I had terrible erectile issues during this time.

Keep in mind that SERMS might be "by prescription" but they are NOT controlled substances and can be legally possessed in most locales. I order pharmaceutical grade online and it's 100% legal.

[longBallLima]

On the absence of PN, make sure you hit so cal nutrition. They are a sponsor here and have good options of otcs, if you're set on going that route

[Frank Thomas]

I like Celtic and IBE for Epi (actually the only ones I have used).

I have never used dermacrine before. How many of you that have used it, really like it? Thanks

[Strong_Guy]

I like Celtic and IBE for Epi (actually the only ones I have used).

I have never used dermacrine before. How many of you that have used it, really like it? Thanks

My personal experience is a modest (not extreme but noticeable) increase in strength, libido, leaning out, and muscle fullness. Where it really shines for me is through endurance/energy. My time at the gym: lifting, cardio, etc. can just go on and on. I tire out less quick and get a great boost in energy.

[Hank!]

Current stack is epi and td trest by Olympus , good lean vascular gains with little to no bad sides. Really like this combo

[BBG]

What's your dose on the transdermal trest?

[Hank!]

I have been doing half pump after shower in the morning , and then usually a full pump before I lift sometimes that is around 1 others after 5, Next time I think i will just skip it pre workout because i usually shower right after so it is kind of a waste, even thought i feel a psychological benefit.

[Mad Mardigan]

Dermacrine is more of a cognition/functional-energy boost for me. Which is fantastic I should add. I've been more than dabbling with external androgens for years, and dermacrine brings a huge benefit. Do I think it's absolutely necessary? Of course not, but it is a product I will always use when budget permits. Off cycle or on.

[Bucks]

Do you feel dermacrine adds anything to a HRT dose / cruise ?

[Frank Thomas]

Current stack is epi and td trest by Olympus , good lean vascular gains with little to no bad sides. Really like this combo

How do you like the olympus product? What others have you used?

[Hank!]

So far Olympus seems effective. I would be willing to try other products from them

I have used LGi, Iron Legion, Anteus, Iron Mag and Xtreme products on the past

[Frank Thomas]

So far Olympus seems effective. I would be willing to try other products from them

I have used LGi, Iron Legion, Anteus, Iron Mag and Xtreme products on the past
Thanks for the response. I've heard both ways on their product.
Thanks again

[Strong_Guy]

Cycle is looking like this so far:

Dermacrine: 5 pumps, weeks 1-8

Vital Labs Stano Shred: 3 caps/day (600 mgs), weeks 3-8

Vital Labs Protex cycle support: 3 caps/day, weeks 3-8

Vital Labs EPI 2A3A: 20/30/40/40/40, weeks 4-8

Vital Labs Post Cycle 3X: 4 caps/day, weeks 9-12; might throw some Phyto-Test in post-PCT

Been following a low carb, moderate/high fat and protein diet over the last couple months and have trimmed down nicely. Going to give the diet another few weeks then start the cycle while following the same general diet. Goals are decent strength increase and some good dry gains. Never tried anything from Vital Labs before, but products look solid and there seems to be some good feedback out there.

[Strong_Guy]

So I was able to pick up a couple tubes of PP AndroEnhance. What are the thoughts of swapping out the Dermacrine and Stano for the AE on this cycle? One of my main concerns with this cycle is lethargy from the Epi which I know Dermacrine is known to help effectively combat. I think the AE could potentially be a good addition. Otherwise I may save it for a future stack. Side note, I never really got to play around with AE much to determine if it is better in a cut or bulk, I only used a couple tubes when it first came out and before it was no longer made. Again, the goal of this particular cycle is to trim down and get some good lean gains.

[Freepressright]

So I was able to pick up a couple tubes of PP AndroEnhance. What are the thoughts of swapping out the Dermacrine and Stano for the AE on this cycle? One of my main concerns with this cycle is lethargy from the Epi which I know Dermacrine is known to help effectively combat. I think the AE could potentially be a good addition. Otherwise I may save it for a future stack. Side note, I never really got to play around with AE much to determine if it is better in a cut or bulk, I only used a couple tubes when it first came out and before it was no longer made. Again, the goal of this particular cycle is to trim down and get some good lean gains.

I tried AndroEnhance when it was first released. There's a definite difference between it and Dermacrine.

Here's what I found:

-Instant muscle volumization and vascularity enhancement (like, within the first 48 hours).
-Libido neutral, perhaps even libido negative to only a small degree
-No lethargy
-Agression and mild emotional sides
-Severe dry skin and it smells like tequila. Be aware this stuff is NOT as skin friendly as Dermacrine. You will most likely be forced to change application sites due to the "snake skin" you might get from it.

[Strong_Guy]

I tried AndroEnhance when it was first released. There's a definite difference between it and Dermacrine.

Here's what I found:

-Instant muscle volumization and vascularity enhancement (like, within the first 48 hours).
-Libido neutral, perhaps even libido negative to only a small degree
-No lethargy
-Agression and mild emotional sides
-Severe dry skin and it smells like tequila. Be aware this stuff is NOT as skin friendly as Dermacrine. You will most likely be forced to change application sites due to the "snake skin" you might get from it.

I do remember the drying effect on the skin, I did have to switch application areas regularly. I think I will save it for a spring stack with a high dose of epiandro. I'm pretty sold on trying the epistane/dermacrine stack and I think it will match my current goals well.

[Strong_Guy]

Cycle is locked in as follows. Currently in week 3 of Dermacrine. Start Epi in a week.

On Cycle:

Dermacrine: 5 pumps, weeks 1-8

Vital Labs Protex cycle support: 2 caps/day, weeks 3-8

Vital Labs EPI 2A3A: 20/30/40/40/40, weeks 4-8

PCT:

Vital Labs Post Cycle 3X: 4 caps/day, weeks 9-12

Vital Labs DAA MAX: 4 caps/day, weeks 9-12

Olympus Labs ELIM1NATE: 75/50/50/25, weeks 9-12


As far as the Androenhance goes, I already have plans for that next spring: 4 pumps/day stacked with 6 caps of Antaeus Labs Ultra Stano (900 mg). Already have the Ultra Stano on order, really excited about this one:cool:.

[Freepressright]

Cycle is locked in as follows. Currently in week 3 of Dermacrine. Start Epi in a week.

On Cycle:

Dermacrine: 5 pumps, weeks 1-8

Vital Labs Protex cycle support: 2 caps/day, weeks 3-8

Vital Labs EPI 2A3A: 20/30/40/40/40, weeks 4-8

PCT:

Vital Labs Post Cycle 3X: 4 caps/day, weeks 9-12

Vital Labs DAA MAX: 4 caps/day, weeks 9-12

Olympus Labs ELIM1NATE: 75/50/50/25, weeks 9-12


As far as the Androenhance goes, I already have plans for that next spring: 4 pumps/day stacked with 6 caps of Antaeus Labs Ultra Stano (900 mg). Already have the Ultra Stano on order, really excited about this one:cool:.

Smart man, priming yourself with the Dermacrine. That's exactly what I did, and it was a winner. The Dermacrine was peaking nicely when the Epi was introduced.

Had I not washed my hands of methyls, I'd probably run this stack again. Felt amazing.

[Strong_Guy]

Ok, something strange is going on. Last week was my first week of epi at 20 mg/day, just started my 30 mg/day yesterday. The first week I noticed feeling a bit anxious, particularly in the first hour or so after dosing. Also, sleep started to suffer a bit; started to have some difficulty falling/staying asleep throughout the night.

Now, day two of taking 30 mg I just literally feeling like I was starting to have a panic attack a few minutes ago after taking my third cap for the day. What the hell?!? I did some quick research but I didn't find this as being an overly common side effect... I've been dosing one 10 mg cap about 6-7 hours apart as recommended, I don't really know what is going on. I'm definitely more than a bit alarmed to say the least. Maybe I have a low tolerance? This is the first DS cycle I've ever tried, everything else has been on the milder side of PH's (DHEA derivatives). I'm considering dialing it back to 20 mg/day maybe; or just possibly scrapping the whole thing and just finishing with the Dermacrine.

Any thoughts??

[Freepressright]

Ok, something strange is going on. Last week was my first week of epi at 20 mg/day, just started my 30 mg/day yesterday. The first week I noticed feeling a bit anxious, particularly in the first hour or so after dosing. Also, sleep started to suffer a bit; started to have some difficulty falling/staying asleep throughout the night.

Now, day two of taking 30 mg I just literally feeling like I was starting to have a panic attack a few minutes ago after taking my third cap for the day. What the hell?!? I did some quick research but I didn't find this as being an overly common side effect... I've been dosing one 10 mg cap about 6-7 hours apart as recommended, I don't really know what is going on. I'm definitely more than a bit alarmed to say the least. Maybe I have a low tolerance? This is the first DS cycle I've ever tried, everything else has been on the milder side of PH's (DHEA derivatives). I'm considering dialing it back to 20 mg/day maybe; or just possibly scrapping the whole thing and just finishing with the Dermacrine.

Any thoughts??

How long have you been taking the Dermacrine, and did it, by itself, cause you any increase in anxiety? I have heard some report that the pregenolone can overstimulate them, making them anxious, but if you took it for a couple weeks with no issues, I don't know that I'd look to it for blame.

I've never heard of Epi causing anxiety or panic. Dial it back to 20 and assess how you feel. Ride it out a week or so at 20 and then try bumping it up again.

[Cdsnuts]

Ok, something strange is going on. Last week was my first week of epi at 20 mg/day, just started my 30 mg/day yesterday. The first week I noticed feeling a bit anxious, particularly in the first hour or so after dosing. Also, sleep started to suffer a bit; started to have some difficulty falling/staying asleep throughout the night.

Now, day two of taking 30 mg I just literally feeling like I was starting to have a panic attack a few minutes ago after taking my third cap for the day. What the hell?!? I did some quick research but I didn't find this as being an overly common side effect... I've been dosing one 10 mg cap about 6-7 hours apart as recommended, I don't really know what is going on. I'm definitely more than a bit alarmed to say the least. Maybe I have a low tolerance? This is the first DS cycle I've ever tried, everything else has been on the milder side of PH's (DHEA derivatives). I'm considering dialing it back to 20 mg/day maybe; or just possibly scrapping the whole thing and just finishing with the Dermacrine.

Any thoughts??

Could be an over burdened liver.

[Strong_Guy]

How long have you been taking the Dermacrine, and did it, by itself, cause you any increase in anxiety? I have heard some report that the pregenolone can overstimulate them, making them anxious, but if you took it for a couple weeks with no issues, I don't know that I'd look to it for blame.

I've never heard of Epi causing anxiety or panic. Dial it back to 20 and assess how you feel. Ride it out a week or so at 20 and then try bumping it up again.

That thought crossed my mind, but I have cycled Dermacrine many, many times; solo, stacked with other PHs, and for extended lengths of time at fairly high doses (5-6 pumps). Never had any adverse effects, only felt great. Also, my first three weeks of this particular cycle were with Derm only; didn't feel anxious or weird at all, just when I started the Epi.

I'm done though, scrapping the Epi altogether, it's not worth any potential problems to me. I'm going to finish out my last half of this cycle with Dermacrine and try some of my newly acquired Ultra-Stano instead.

[Strong_Guy]

Could be an over burdened liver.

Yeah, but what would that "feel" like? I mean, would it cause anxiety type effects? And so early, and at such a low dose? I don't know. My first experiment with a methyl definitely did not go as planned. But, it was just that, an experiment; and I've had plenty of success with the milder PHs, so the way I look at it, why not just stick with what works. Oh well.

[Enuke65]

It's your call but I don't think you would see sides after 2 or 3 days man, seems kinda quick, especially for those low doses. If you started at like 50-60 mg a day then maybe, even then I'd think it would take more than a few days. But everyone responds differently, could be it doesn't agree with you.

Afterthought:
Are you positive that what you were taking was epistane?

[Strong_Guy]

It's your call but I don't think you would see sides after 2 or 3 days man, seems kinda quick, especially for those low doses. If you started at like 50-60 mg a day then maybe, even then I'd think it would take more than a few days. But everyone responds differently, could be it doesn't agree with you.

Afterthought:
Are you positive that what you were taking was epistane?

I thought surely there wouldn't be any significant sides so soon and at such a low dose either, that's what puzzled me so much.

Also, it damn well better be epistane. The product is Vital Labs EPI 2A3A (2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyletioallocholanol 10mg). I researched it, and there were a decent amount of positive reviews. I'd be pissed if it wasn't legit. The whole thing really has me perplexed, I've supplemented with a variety of products, never felt anything like that...

[SoCal-Nutrition]

if you're worried about it, I'll gladly send you a bottle of Epi to see if the problem persists.

We never carried Vital Labs...I can't remember why I turned their line down though.

[Cdsnuts]

Yeah, but what would that "feel" like? I mean, would it cause anxiety type effects? And so early, and at such a low dose? I don't know. My first experiment with a methyl definitely did not go as planned. But, it was just that, an experiment; and I've had plenty of success with the milder PHs, so the way I look at it, why not just stick with what works. Oh well.

It would feel like exactly what you're saying you feel. Panic attacks and anxiety issues are a sign of an over worked liver. Do some googling. The fact that it's happening soon after you dose is telling. People don't realize how hard those methyls are on your gut. And seeing as it's not a listed side effect of that hormone, it's really one of the only things left.

Are you having any sleep issues?

I've had an over taxed liver before from taking too many supps and not enough water and healthy food. I would get panic attacks after taking the supps and my sleep was shit. I cut out all supps, got on a schedule with my water intake and the problem stopped after two days. Just sayin.

[Strong_Guy]

It would feel like exactly what you're saying you feel. Panic attacks and anxiety issues are a sign of an over worked liver. Do some googling. The fact that it's happening soon after you dose is telling. People don't realize how hard those methyls are on your gut. And seeing as it's not a listed side effect of that hormone, it's really one of the only things left.

Are you having any sleep issues?

I've had an over taxed liver before from taking too many supps and not enough water and healthy food. I would get panic attacks after taking the supps and my sleep was shit. I cut out all supps, got on a schedule with my water intake and the problem stopped after two days. Just sayin.

Wow, that's interesting, I had no idea. And yes, actually, about the sleep thing. I started having trouble falling/staying asleep after about a week of the epi. I have to say, I'm becoming more and more turned off by the whole methyl options... I think I will stick to the non-methyls that always seemed to work just fine for me. If I try anything different in the future it will likely be transdermals. Some of Olympus Labs look interesting.

[Scope75]

IMLs Epi Andro RX is a fun run and not taxing at all.

[Strong_Guy]

IMLs Epi Andro RX is a fun run and not taxing at all.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to check out the IML products, those look promising. I'm finishing my last five weeks of this Dermacrine run with some of my Ultra-Stano I picked up. Running it at 750 mg/day; anxious to see how it turns out. Trying to make the best out of whats left of this broken cycle, Derm's kicked in real good now though, libidos gone crazy lol.

[Cdsnuts]

I wish Derm didn't make me hella anxious....The first couple days on it for me are awesome. All down hill from there.

[Strong_Guy]

I'm trying to decide if I should possibly consider giving a pulse cycle a shot next time. I thought about maybe pulsing the rest of this cycle, but I'd rather give the Ultra-Stano a go and possibly revisit the idea maybe next spring/summer.

I'm curious as to what experienced epistane guys have returneed with pulsing vs. regular cycle for epistane. Maybe the weird sides I was experiencing wouldn't be as pronounced if I were to try pulsing the epi at around 20-30 mg on workout days only. I just don't know if any of the positive effects would be there either. Otherwise I don't know what the hell to do with the remaining 99 caps I have.

[anabolcd]

I registered after seeing this thread. I recently bought Vital Labs Epi and experienced a wired feeling after taking it. After taking a pill at 9pm and not getting to sleep until 4am I stopped taking it. I've taken most popular oral aas at one time or another and never experienced anything like that so I don't know what the deal is with this compound. I'd suggest just moving on at this point.