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weekend
10-16-2014, 10:26 PM
Okay guys. I'm on cycle again. Ran Test and Primo and some Tbol. and a little anavar too. lower doses this time.

I jumped back on cycle because i didnt feel too good. Long story short, in my post PCT bloods i still had some serm in my system after my last 5 month long cycle... my total T was 1130, but my LH and FSH were higher than in my original first pre-cycle blood work where my total test was 1131... This means my nuts were basically desensitized. I have probably used hcg too long? I got bloods again 3 months after PCT and total test had dropped to 450. I felt okay (actually pretty damn good) mentally but had pretty bad ED and was shrinking in the gym.

So i saw the result, and said fuck it. Jumping back on. Ran 500 primo with 300 test for a while. now i am on 210 mg test, and plan to drop to 140 and then come off over the next month. i want to adjust my body to lower levels before PCT, i know some may say that pct is better the sooner you do it, but i felt like total ass during my last PCT.

on hand:

excess exem + toremifene + clomid

prami
caber
4x 75iu HMG
3x 5000 iu HCG

i have used hcg through this whole cycle at 500 iu MWF. this kept my balls at about 2/3 normal size. seminal volume has been down since starting PREVIOUS cycle. it never went up except DURING PCT and BEGINNING of this cycle. any time i was either on steroids for longer than a week or on nothing my seminal volume dropped.

also currently wrapping up a 7 month run of HGH and peptides. i will be off the peptides and HGH 2 weeks before i start pct. (i was on the peptides during my last PCT, and actually have used peptides almost constantly (no more than a month or two break) for the last year.)

I'm opposed to using serms other than torem and clomid. i am opposed to heavy use of the DA's but i would be okay using a small amount of caber...

i definitely want to use all the HMG because my seminal volume is fucking weak.

I would like to feel good ASAP and have good erections not on steroids like my pre Tren PCT's!

it sucks to feel like i have to be on steroids to perform in bed at 22 years old.


As a side note, 8 weeks of primo at 500 mg gave great gains. i gained 30 lbs and stayed lean. the HGH being involved may have added something to the equation. I also ran a vial of masteron at the end of primo and at that point i felt very similar to how i felt on tren.

- - - Updated - - -

to clarify. any time i have been off steroids and then gone back on, i have seen a huge increase in seminal volume for the first week of a cycle.

weekend
10-16-2014, 10:33 PM
1302

These bloods are from before my first cycle of testosterone (had done two PP andro cycles and an 11-oxo cycle)

oct 10, 2012

weekend
10-16-2014, 10:38 PM
1305

these are from april 16 2014, 4 weeks post PCT from a 5 month cycle including test at 350/wk all the way through and doses of up to 80 mg tren ED and 120 mast ED. also included 4 or 5 different orals as well as boldenone acetate and stanolone (DHT) acetate (THE ULTIMATE GYNO NUKER IF YOU WERE WONDERING)

before this cycle i ran 14 weeks of 500 mg test and then later a month or two of masteron+proviron solo.

weekend
10-16-2014, 10:38 PM
1306

and these are my bloods from july 11th. i started this cycle july 15th. so i've been on exactly 12 weeks now.

i was not using anything other than vitamins, HGH, peptides and t2t4 here.

also should note i have used 1 pill a day of evolved's t2t4 product for the entire summer to enhance the effect of HGH. i haven't noticed a difference.

weekend
10-16-2014, 10:40 PM
i have other bloods if anyone is interested but i think these are the most relevant.

BBG
10-17-2014, 10:18 AM
Can't see the second or third set of bloods on here.

weekend
10-17-2014, 01:08 PM
fixed.. i think

Jelisej
10-17-2014, 06:12 PM
Your liver needs rest, maybe to take some "liver forte"?
You have a lot of cycles in short time, you need rest there as well.
I dont think using peptides or anything that affect hormones in PCT and some time after is a good idea.

4 weeks after PCT SERMS may be still present in your system which would explain elevated LH/FSH tough they have tendency to come in peaks, so one minute can be high next low- if they are consistently low or high than you can suspect problem with pituary or testicles.

If you have prolactin issues you should sort out cause which is one (or combination of) 3: 1. pituary adenoma 2. hypothroidism 3. high level of stress

500 IU of HCG is bit high, 250 IU should suffice.


take longer PCT this time, and longer time of as well, also note that after PCT is done- there are still ups and downs till HPTA settles down to certain level, and it may take while for it ti settle. Going on cycle during this period can mess up HPTA, and especially if you're under 25 or over 40.


Your ED/libido issues could be result of high progesterone levels, which also binds DHT and E2 as well. For elevated progesterone to clears off system can take awfull long time, and as far as I know- there is no medication to reduce it.
Tough if your progesterone is high you may feel somehow sedated.

weekend
10-17-2014, 08:16 PM
I certainly did not feel sedated.

250 iu of hcg is not enough to keep my balls from shrinking.


My pct was 10 weeks last time.

I think my liver is always this way. I do not believe i have prolactin issues.


Do you have suggestions for dosing and timing of pct items as i listed above?

Jelisej
10-18-2014, 03:53 PM
Peptides part is debatable but generally I dont think anything was wrong with your last PCT, maybe this time run exem one more week than last time. And take some reasonable time off- last time you went on cycle before your HPTA recovery was complete ( it takes while after PCT to things settle). And other thing some compounds can have an post-effect longer than people think- (including tren). nandrolone is probably worst one as it can have effect on brain chemistry for a year or more which thus can have effect on hormones as well as libido and even emotional part.
In any case if you remember my formula was: (Time on+ PCT) X2= Time of. Which translates into- once you had 13 week cycle you are done for that year.
If you thinking into going pros than maybe prescription is option. If you want to stay "natural" you'll need to make changes and reduce your cycles, or even completely stop.

weekend
10-18-2014, 04:55 PM
I went back on cycle because my ED was so bad that cialis and such didnt help.

My libido did not go away, however. I felt like i was still on cycle with regards to feeling "eager" haha

- - - Updated - - -

Do you at least have a recommendation for the use of hmg and hcg leading up? Should i stop the hcg for the last few weeks of cycle to decrease the desensitization?

Jelisej
10-18-2014, 05:51 PM
Well, your E2 could be bit high, some people are more sensitive to higher levels of E2 than others, and typically you have E2 on lower side so that may be reason, also some compounds like nandrolone (not sure if tren is one of them) have an longer effect on some neurotransmitters especially serotonin which is tightly linked to E2 so even that can be cause.
Other likely thing is excess epinephrine/norepinephrine- this is not just an erection destroyer it prevents erection from happening altogether- and this can be caused by lot of things- anxiety, low cortisol level, CNS overstimulation, stress, etc....

Regarding HCG/HMG last injection I think is best 2 days before PCT.
Desensitation is something that clomiphene should help with along with mixed nuts/toco and taladafil, and that is also one of reasons why I recommend longer PCT as it helps somewhat with both pituary and testicle desensitation.

weekend
10-18-2014, 06:15 PM
I had an idea of running hcg higher up until pct and then using 75 iu hmg 1x/week for the first four weeks

Is that totally dumb?

- - - Updated - - -

Oh also my e2 was super low when i felt bad but i wasnt using anything

In retrospect a serm probably wouldve helped a lot at that time.

Jelisej
10-18-2014, 06:30 PM
I dont see a point of running higher HCG as it has more potential sides (desensitation) and it does not really prove more effective. I think that 500 IU is not much more effective than 250 IU, 250- 300 IU is where it gives most of benefits. Tough it varies a lot from person to person, some are better with more frequent and smaller doses some in less frequent but slightly higher, tough 3X 250 IU fits most of people.
HMG in PCT does not seems good idea too me. Apart of cycle itself where HCG helps prevent shrinkage (or minimise it) Clomiphene is far superior in every aspect of PCT including testicle size restoration, so HMG/HCG is not neccessary in any part of PCT itself. You may take few weeks longer on PCT if you think there is need. Also, you do need to accept that for a few weeks thing may not be working greatly, its just part of the game.

Back to E2- sweet spot is around 25 ng/dl, 5 +/- is normal variation, some folks are better on lower some on higher end, but a 10 +/- problems with erections start to happen, and libido is affected as well. So if your E2 was a lot out of range than ED is not unexpected.

tallstraw
10-18-2014, 06:35 PM
What desensitization are you talking about. There's very few real world evidence to back it up at any dosage used by body builders...doses of like 5000 and frequently used is one thing. But 250, 500 etc e3d or so is not gonna 'desensitize you...However going long periods without it...then trying to use it on cycle, will require doses that are high at first because there will have been desensitization from no use...so I higher dose will be needed, but you'd still lower the frequency with the higher dose...then once it starts working you could lower it back down to an acceptable dose...is this the desensitization you speak of?

Jelisej
10-18-2014, 06:54 PM
There is not much evidence on desensitization over internet (tough I dont think its very researched area), but based on my personal experience it does happen, but frankly speaking I'm not a researcher or medical professional- so its just an opinion.

weekend
10-18-2014, 07:21 PM
i just felt that because my gonadotropins were so high but my test was the same as it was a long time ago, my testicles are likely somewhat desensitized.

i figured maybe using 1500 iu of hcg a week for a long time causes this to an extent

Jelisej
10-18-2014, 07:39 PM
It takes a few blood tests to see where average falls as LH is bit unpredictable, but with one of the guys I worked had common results around 3-4 mlUl/ml, and in recent times its commonly around 6-7, another thing is progesterone gets higher as well (too much LH or HCG results in higher/too high progesterone levels.
I've seen few similar scenarios, maybe insufficient to prove anything and its results are not dramatical but I guess it can potentially build up over time or as results of higher doses so its better to be cautious. Better to be safe than sorry.

tallstraw
10-18-2014, 08:18 PM
Better safe than sorry. But someone like Dr Scully who has been around for a long time..researching just this stuff challenges anyone all the time to provide credible evidence. He's in one of the closed FB groups I use, which is cool. 62 yr old Doctor been doing this for a while...he'll poke holes in the things commonly used to argue desensitization. It's normally the dose used that does desensitization. He doesn't argue it isn't a thing just that with the doses we use, it isn't something to fret ovwr. Frequent 1k, 2k,3k,4k,5k doses will desensitize. But lower doses 250 e3d isn't something to worry about...but that lack of lh for periods of time does desensitize the leydig cells( I think) which then REQUIRES a high dose for a few doses to start resensitizing. Which can then be cut back down to lower normal doses.

longBallLima
10-18-2014, 11:32 PM
Better safe than sorry. But someone like Dr Scully who has been around for a long time..researching just this stuff challenges anyone all the time to provide credible evidence. He's in one of the closed FB groups I use, which is cool. 62 yr old Doctor been doing this for a while...he'll poke holes in the things commonly used to argue desensitization. It's normally the dose used that does desensitization. He doesn't argue it isn't a thing just that with the doses we use, it isn't something to fret ovwr. Frequent 1k, 2k,3k,4k,5k doses will desensitize. But lower doses 250 e3d isn't something to worry about...but that lack of lh for periods of time does desensitize the leydig cells( I think) which then REQUIRES a high dose for a few doses to start resensitizing. Which can then be cut back down to lower normal doses.

I think I'm in that group and I think Scally very much takes desensitization in consideration, since his protocol uses high doses of HCG. A blast post cycle instead of intra-cycle hcg. I've seen him advise people not to abuse HCG for that very reason, if i'm not mistaken.