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wagon241
11-23-2014, 07:12 AM
Hypothetically, if someone is on TRT, lets says Androgel(mild conversion to DHT), and they run 8 weeks of Trest or Max LMG, or any of the like, would they need to worry about estrogen rebound after the cycle is over, if they never went off TRT? Technically estrogen rebound comes from a spike in estrogen when everything rises in PCT, but if someone is on TRT during cycle, and there is no drastic reduction of test or E2 during cycle because of TRT, is Estrogen or Progesterone sides really likely in PCT or Post PCT?

Also, what PCT would be recommended for anyone who's on TRT?

wagon241
11-23-2014, 06:33 PM
Hypothetically, if someone is on TRT, lets says Androgel(mild conversion to DHT), and they run 8 weeks of Trest or Max LMG, or any of the like, would they need to worry about estrogen rebound after the cycle is over, if they never went off TRT? Technically estrogen rebound comes from a spike in estrogen when everything rises in PCT, but if someone is on TRT during cycle, and there is no drastic reduction of test or E2 during cycle because of TRT, is Estrogen or Progesterone sides really likely in PCT or Post PCT?

Also, what PCT would be recommended for anyone who's on TRT?



Anyone???

Mad Mardigan
11-24-2014, 12:17 AM
If you are on trt then a pct is unnecessary. I would always be prepared for any raise in estrogen when playing with hormones, regardless of possible rebound or not. Better to be ready and not need it then the other way around.

weekend
11-24-2014, 12:19 AM
no pct needed....

just keep an eye on e2 and maybe prolactin sides depending on what you run. keep that liver healthy, water water water!

wagon241
11-24-2014, 07:39 AM
no pct needed....

just keep an eye on e2 and maybe prolactin sides depending on what you run. keep that liver healthy, water water water!


I understand no PCT is "needed". But during a normal PCT, everyone takes something for estrogen control. My question is, if PCT isnt needed due to being on TRT, then is taking an AI, or Anti-Estro necessary after the cycle of a progesterone like Trest/Max lmg? Obviously these ancillaries should always be on hand, but is it needed, if theres no symptoms? Also for the prolactin issues, would it be best to run during, post, or both?

Jelisej
11-24-2014, 06:09 PM
If person is on TRT than he is monitoring E2 levels and probably is taking AI already, also after cycle person on TRT after cycle will be back on his normal testosterone levels while for "naturals" it will take a few weeks or even longer, depending. Point of PCT is to make it quicker a bit, and to refresh receptors a bit.

There is no medication that lowers progesterone levels. If someone is on trt and after cycle has build up of progesterone he will need to take bit higher dose of testosterone to raise DHT a bit, while natural person (on PCT) will have to endure lack of libido or other symptoms till progesterone clears, which can take a while.

weekend
11-24-2014, 06:22 PM
^jelisej, for a run with something like tren, would running test only at a dose which allows libido to stay intact for a while before coming off allow for progesterone to clear and thus a less difficult PCT?

like perhaps

test + tren wk 1-8
test only cycle dose 8-12
test only TRT dose 12-16
pct week 16 and beyond?


sorry for hijack

wagon241
11-24-2014, 07:05 PM
^jelisej, for a run with something like tren, would running test only at a dose which allows libido to stay intact for a while before coming off allow for progesterone to clear and thus a less difficult PCT?

like perhaps

test + tren wk 1-8
test only cycle dose 8-12
test only TRT dose 12-16
pct week 16 and beyond?


sorry for hijack

By all means bro! Im interested as well. I just know that most that are prescribed Androgel 1.62, arent prescribed an AI, but do have levels checked regularly. IE: My trt is low dosed AG1.6, 60mg ED, and have never been scripted for an AI. The reason I love AG1.6 is because it has a decent conversion to DHT, and #1 side effect is a positive libido!

weekend
11-24-2014, 07:11 PM
i'm under the impression that androgel as a test base would probably result in less progesterone and prolactin issue than using injectable T, because of the increased DHT conversion (or ratio)

what are your levels at on 60 mg ed?

Jelisej
11-24-2014, 07:40 PM
^jelisej, for a run with something like tren, would running test only at a dose which allows libido to stay intact for a while before coming off allow for progesterone to clear and thus a less difficult PCT?

like perhaps
test + tren wk 1-8
test only cycle dose 8-12
test only TRT dose 12-16
pct week 16 and beyond?
sorry for hijack

I can only give you a speculative answer because an insufficient data and all different variables, tough theoretically your suggestion does make sense, I definitely agree with idea of using tren in first half of cycle only, which would help a lot- also I think problem could be reduced by not using too much tren.
Also it depends of persons metabolic rate- if persons metabolic rate is a good than progesterone should cascade into other hormones, by the time of PCT (hopefully).

wagon241
11-24-2014, 07:42 PM
i'm under the impression that androgel as a test base would probably result in less progesterone and prolactin issue than using injectable T, because of the increased DHT conversion (or ratio)

what are your levels at on 60 mg ed?


My levels have always been good. Im actually past due for bloods, by a good three weeks, but havent had a chance to get in and get it done. The last few tests, they only did TT and FT. I did ask for a full panel for the next one, and they were ok with it. AT 60 MG ED, my TT is around 900, and FT is around 190. I have seen elevated DHT, but not "flagged" above the normal level ranges.

Jelisej
11-24-2014, 07:46 PM
My levels have always been good. Im actually past due for bloods, by a good three weeks, but havent had a chance to get in and get it done. The last few tests, they only did TT and FT. I did ask for a full panel for the next one, and they were ok with it. AT 60 MG ED, my TT is around 900, and FT is around 190. I have seen elevated DHT, but not "flagged" above the normal level ranges.

These are good levels, this routine works well for you. E2 is withing reason as your libido is ok.
Even if DHT is a bit over the range- thats nothing to worry about, just monitor blood thickness if it gets suspicious (with higher androgen levels blood thickens which increase chances of heart attack, blood clots etc).

wagon241
11-29-2014, 08:49 PM
These are good levels, this routine works well for you. E2 is withing reason as your libido is ok.
Even if DHT is a bit over the range- thats nothing to worry about, just monitor blood thickness if it gets suspicious (with higher androgen levels blood thickens which increase chances of heart attack, blood clots etc).

Jel, your a wealth of knowledge as usual, and I appreciate it!

wagon241
12-01-2014, 09:09 AM
These are good levels, this routine works well for you. E2 is withing reason as your libido is ok.
Even if DHT is a bit over the range- thats nothing to worry about, just monitor blood thickness if it gets suspicious (with higher androgen levels blood thickens which increase chances of heart attack, blood clots etc).

What's the probability that someone who is on trt, having the same pct issues, like low libido, ED, etc? If, so what would you do?

weekend
12-01-2014, 10:15 AM
step one: dial in test to 1000+ng/dl and estro to 15-25 pg/ml
step two: reevaluate and if still having issues check all other hormones

lt1head
12-01-2014, 01:32 PM
To backup what weekend said:

Labcorp upper T limit is 1197 ng/dl. MMA uses them as their fighters are athletes and athletes have higher T. Bodybuilder = Athlete. Typically you want to be in the upper quarter range of "normal" for your group as the "normal" range is severely marred by fat, old, out of shape, americans :D. Plenty of labs have an upper limit of 800 something which is BS.

Jelisej
12-01-2014, 04:52 PM
What's the probability that someone who is on trt, having the same pct issues, like low libido, ED, etc? If, so what would you do?

Depends what the cause is, and symptoms- usual suspects are E2, low free testosterone or for example it can be high progesterone which keeps DHT in control (as well as E2) so raising DHT may be help here, or prolactin can be high which destroys libido, it can be too high cortisol or it can be low cortisol as well in which norepinephrine goes high which not just destroys libido, it totally prevent erection from happening...

Some period of libido/erection issues is expected till few things sort itself out if persist than bloodtest is needed, and when culprit is found than obvioulsy cause needs to be fixed.