Scope's TRT Journey.......

[Scope75]

So I have a doctors appointment next Tuesday and I'm going to see about getting on TRT and I'll also ask for/about HCG and a AI. I'll be turning 30 in a few months too so I think it's about that time to bring it up.
I have a test from 2011 that's shows like 296 and another from March this of this year showing 358 the one from 2011 showed high 116 estrogen too. Hopefully he'll run a full detailed blood panel of just be real nice and write me a script.;)
What do you guys think my chances are??
I'm thinking my chances are pretty good as long as my levels are still low which they should be.
Anything I should do before the test?
Not sure if he'll do bloods that day or not but I'll be going in like he will be because the receptionist said they do that in house too.
I really don't plan to have kids but maybe I do so that's why I'll be asking for HCG and that's a good reason plus id like to keep my balls active anyways..
AI will be ask for to make sure it's on hand if sides appear.


Posted this in my log also but though it might get my traction here.

[weekend]

are you sure you want TRT? have you tried torem + low dose exem? res100?

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youll get at least 600 ng /dl with exem putting it in range i'd bet

but i feel you i'm only 22 and considering TRT lol

[weekend]

if you want to bomb the test and get the trt:

sleep as little as possible for TWO nights prior to testing. drink the day before test. stay hydrated though. also be very hydrated for test and it will dilute concentration.

maybe think about home furnishings or your grandma while waiting in the lobby, that will prevent any surges in test too ;)

if you go hard as planned above you'll prob test under 200 ng/dl

but i would get someone to drive you, you'll be retarded.

also going on a very low fat vegan diet for a week would help too. lots of soy lol

[hossam]

1319

and results will be awesome

[Scope75]

are you sure you want TRT? have you tried torem + low dose exem? res100?

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youll get at least 600 ng /dl with exem putting it in range i'd bet

but i feel you i'm only 22 and considering TRT lol

Pretty damn sure....
I talked about it with my GF a bunch over the long weekend and I've been thinking about it and reading into it for weeks.

Haven't tried anything to get my levels up and if I have to take torem and exem or supps to get them up Id rather just pin test.
Only time I've seen a 624 for test was coming off epi andro and taking 500-600 a week of HCG.

My dad has been on TRT for 3yrs and he loves it. He tells me about how much better he feels way more energy and focus and better body comp without even lifting.

[Scope75]

if you want to bomb the test and get the trt:

sleep as little as possible for TWO nights prior to testing. drink the day before test. stay hydrated though. also be very hydrated for test and it will dilute concentration.

maybe think about home furnishings or your grandma while waiting in the lobby, that will prevent any surges in test too ;)

if you go hard as planned above you'll prob test under 200 ng/dl

but i would get someone to drive you, you'll be retarded.

also going on a very low fat vegan diet for a week would help too. lots of soy lol


None of my other low test results where purposely skewed by doing anything out of the norm so I'm not even sure if any of the above will be required and I don't drink ever and I eat a HIGH fat diet and I know I wont/can't go vegan for any amount of time but I could drop the fats or even fast for 24-36hrs.
I was thinking about staying up late and jerking off a few time plus drinking a ton of water. My appointment is at 2:15pm and I told the receptionist I could and didn't mind staying fasted until then. Will that help to get lower levels?

[O.N.]

You should have a read of this thread: http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/3070-reversing-hrt-or-avoiding-hrt.html (http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/3070-reversing-hrt-or-avoiding-hrt.html)

Also read review #64 here: http://wickedsupplements.com/res100-review/ (http://wickedsupplements.com/res100-review/)


If you address the symptoms that are causing low testosterone you can fix it, also if your body is making testosterone now you may just need a tune up, the mechanics are all there and work so you just need to fix a couple of areas up. HCG booster shots can easily help this along.

[Scope75]

1319

and results will be awesome

Or maybe that's already the problem because I smoke MJ daily. lol
I'll be quitting for a while after my appointment or atleast tapering back some.

[Scope75]

Forgot to mention in my first post that I've been down on energy and crashing hard almost daily around 1-3pm, all my drive and focus isn't really around like it should be, my sleep habits have went to shit, shitty/feeling down all the time, mood swings, hard time maintaining any type of respectable body comp, and the list could go on and on but the main thing is I just feel OFF in someway shape or form.

With all that said my libido and sex drive is threw the fucking roof. When I'm with my GF we have sex 2-4 times a day and my unit is always ready to go but I do notice a difference in erection quality because some times it's just hard but not hard and jacked like it should be. My GF can even tell the difference and that's a shitty deal to hear/talk about.

I'll probably talk to my dad about it today and see what he thinks and ask if he wishes if he'd of asked about trt earlier know that he's on it.

My dad and I see the same Doctor and she seems pretty free and open to ideas/suggestion while on trt, but she wasn't able to get me in so I'll be seeing a male doctor this time so hopefully he understands where I'm coming from or doesn't want me feeling that/the way I do or he'll be a dick and try to tell me everything else I should try first or that it's not the issue.

I've already came to the conclusion that if I'm unable to get a script I'll probably just take it into my own hands and start self prescribed trt and do all my own bloods to keep things inline.
So if he doesn't even want to hear me out of talk it threw I'll be letting him know that I'll do my own trt but I'd rather do it the safe/legal way and under the supervision of a doctor.

[Scope75]

You should have a read of this thread: http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/3070-reversing-hrt-or-avoiding-hrt.html (http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/3070-reversing-hrt-or-avoiding-hrt.html)

Also read review #64 here: http://wickedsupplements.com/res100-review/ (http://wickedsupplements.com/res100-review/)



If you address the symptoms that are causing low testosterone you can fix it, also if your body is making testosterone now you may just need a tune up, the mechanics are all there and work so you just need to fix a couple of areas up. HCG booster shots can easily help this along.

Would be great to mix myself but how do I know what's causing me to have Low T and I know I'm still producing test know and HCG has boosted my levels before but I'm back to feeling shitty and have been for months.

This probably sound hard headed and stubborn but Im not sure Id even want to take a natty supp everyday to boost levels over just pining test weekly. The natty way does sound good but it'll get spendy over time because my dads told me how cheap his vials of test are and its dirt cheap.
Plus if I go the natty route I'll still be stuck doing/paying for my own bloods too.

[O.N.]

Would be great to mix myself but how do I know what's causing me to have Low T and I know I'm still producing test know and HCG has boosted my levels before but I'm back to feeling shitty and have been for months.

This probably sound hard headed and stubborn but Im not sure Id even want to take a natty supp everyday to boost levels over just pining test weekly. The natty way does sound good but it'll get spendy over time because my dads told me how cheap his vials of test are and its dirt cheap.
Plus if I go the natty route I'll still be stuck doing/paying for my own bloods too.

Well you can pin yourself for the rest of your life or fix the issues....pinning gets old fast especially once you get older. Not to mention the long term health issues, the highs and lows of TRT levels, kids, long term sexual function as there is no intratesticular testosterone anymore.

You need to test the following:

Testosterone total
Free testosterone
LH
FSH
SHBG
Estrogen
Cortisol
Prolactin

Cholesterol total
LDL
HDL
triglycerides

LFT
Vitamin D

All impact testosterone production, you can narrow down what of these above are causing you to have low testosterone, you can then treat each parameter as a symptom. You would also be better off if you had to have booster shots of HCG say at worst case every 3 months versus HRT for life. The booster shots would only be required until you sorted out whatever is causing you to have low testosterone.

Like i said the mechanics of the body are working you are making testosterone, you simply need to fine tune whatever is causing it to be low, fix your diet, drug taking issues, sleeping habits etc.

Steroids are a bandaid to your issue....worst part is when you pull the bandaid off the wound is worse than before you put it on.

[Scope75]

ON that post is just what I needed to read and ill try and see if the doctor is willing to check/test all those things out.
What about DHT should that be tested too?

Only thing is I still plan to cycle some PEDs here and there so is it worth me tring to get everythjng straightened just to tank all my levels and start over again?
Or maybe one everything is straightened out I won't need any PEDs.

[lt1head]

Dr Crisler has a bloodstest list and explains why to take each test. It's "TRT a recipe for success". 31 | January | 2014 | Boston Testosterone Partners (https://bostontestosterone.wordpress.com/2014/01/31/) lot's of good info here if you are looking to self treat.

You and I share similar estrogen levels, I would be interested to see you run a genetic profile through 23andme to see if you also have anything that prevents the processing of estrogen normally. Potentially could find something treatable that's causing the estrogen build up. But keep in mind that genetics are VERY uncharted water, and might lead nowhere for now.... I found why my levels were garbage and ended up on TRT anyways.

I started TRT 3 months ago and I still feel like ass, it wont necessarily be an easy ride at first, and some people end up needing daily HCG and or pregnenelone to feel right. Best of luck whatever you decide to do bro.

[weekend]

look i am neutral on whether you should do TRT or not... how old are you?

TRT will come with some issues but MOST of the time you will feel good once you get your system figured out

HOWEVER.. youre ignoring two huge factors in this. your estrogen is way too high. very suppressive. marijuana raises prolactin (by reducing dopamine) and thus suppresses testosterone.

take exemestane and res 100 and quit marijuana and youll be in a healthy range i guarantee.

you can also burn the candle at both ends and smoke hella weed on TRT. whatever floats your boat....

just watch out, if theres a zombie apocalypse there will be no pharma test to be had...

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do you still look like your avatar?

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ON's advice is spot on here but again, the issues to be fixed are already right in front of us lol marijuana and estrogen.

[weekend]

going vegan for a week is cake, i did it for a year and a half. never ate meat for 7 years. lol. you seem set in your ways so i presume quitting weed might be out of the question. if quitting weed is out of the question youll prob want TRT... but with TRT you will definitely need long term exemestane

so youll be taking that or another estro control regardless.

unless you use gel. which sucks with GF and gave my dad a gnarly ass rash

[lt1head]

Weekend, I'm assuming you are talking about androgel or fortesta?

Not trying to start shit here but this is my experience with gel:

2 months of fortesta and .25adex ED put my estrogen at 258.... they ran that test twice. couldnt tolerate more pharma adex. Probably isnt that bad for everyone. but for me, estrogen is way more controllable pinning test cyp hands down. Hair loss was also an issue specific to the gel.

[Scope75]

look i am neutral on whether you should do TRT or not... how old are you?

TRT will come with some issues but MOST of the time you will feel good once you get your system figured out

HOWEVER.. youre ignoring two huge factors in this. your estrogen is way too high. very suppressive. marijuana raises prolactin (by reducing dopamine) and thus suppresses testosterone.

take exemestane and res 100 and quit marijuana and youll be in a healthy range i guarantee.

you can also burn the candle at both ends and smoke hella weed on TRT. whatever floats your boat....

just watch out, if theres a zombie apocalypse there will be no pharma test to be had...

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do you still look like your avatar?

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ON's advice is spot on here but again, the issues to be fixed are already right in front of us lol marijuana and estrogen.

I'm 29.5

The high estrogen was in 2011 and it hasn't been that high since and I wasn't smoking back then either.
The other times it was checked I was on something and it was low from the compound and the other time it was low from the AI.
I was actually going to quit or stop the MJ for a while yesterday but my buddy came by and smoked me out and gave me 2 grams so I have to finish that first. Lol
I've also cut way back on my smoking and just smoke in the evenings to calm me down and put me to sleep. Without it Im tired but wired and my mind just races and is full of thoughts. I eventually fall asleep without but it's way quicker when I smoke.

If the zombies come I hope to be infected so trt won't be needed then but I get what your saying.

I look similar to my avi right now but muscles aren't hard or very vascular either. In my avi inwas on Epi Andro RX, Trest, and exem.
I'm currently 195 and around 13-15% so no abs but I can kinda see the outline or a bulge where they should be.

Would smoking only in the evenings still be bad say .5-1 gram a day max. Not against dropping it all together but since I don't drink or do any other drugs MJ is all I have left to chill out on.

As you can see I'm ready to take the steps to get this shit figured out or to just start on trt.
Just don't know if it's worth my time to try anything but trt since I still plan to run cycles here and there but maybe they wouldn't be needed with everything working properly and who knows maybe I'm fine and the way I feel and the feelings I have are just all in my head.


Do you no longer smoke MJ at all now?
If so do you drink or found something else to take drinking or smokings place while out on the town or chilling with friends.

[Scope75]

going vegan for a week is cake, i did it for a year and a half. never ate meat for 7 years. lol. you seem set in your ways so i presume quitting weed might be out of the question. if quitting weed is out of the question youll prob want TRT... but with TRT you will definitely need long term exemestane

so youll be taking that or another estro control regardless.

unless you use gel. which sucks with GF and gave my dad a gnarly ass rash
Would be easy but I have a fridge full meat that need to be ate or it'll go to waste. Plus I'm really not looking to fool the test either.
Quoting smoking can be done but id like to be keep it in the evenings only or maybe 3-4 evenings a week if once a day into much.
I won't do gels because I have a GF and my dad said they suck and once he started pinning he felt way better and more energized.

[weekend]

i smoke. i smoked last night. when i smoke by myself i smoke .05 grams.

i'm on a heavy pct with a ton of natty supps. finals right now, taking stimulants relatively often too... like 2.5 mg adderall a couple times a week

i should stop smoking. it's hard to quit. 1 gram is a ton of weed. the half life of THC is over 2 days, so the only way for it to not affect your dopamine is to quit entirely.

i'm also on caber .125 mg 3x a week. tapering down soon as i'm off DAA.

i guess you could say i don't practice what i preach all the time, but i do know marijuana RAPES my libido and erection quality unless i'm on test, in which case it is either neutral or enhanced. When i was on test my girl would look at my boners and say "that looks painful" because it was so engorged. i miss that.

i feel like i'm making muscle gains on this PCT but i really have to pop like 25 mg of levitra to get a boner that is only 75% the quality of being on test. sooo........

[weekend]

evenings only is an improvement, don't get me wrong. with myself i find weed is all or nothing. i have a lot of trouble doing "every other day", i either smoke every day or don't smoke at all...

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as for the gel, i had read that it converts to dht more easily and estrogen less easily. maybe i was wrong. i know that more estro from the gel if you rub it on an area that isn't lean.

[Scope75]

i smoke. i smoked last night. when i smoke by myself i smoke .05 grams.

i'm on a heavy pct with a ton of natty supps. finals right now, taking stimulants relatively often too... like 2.5 mg adderall a couple times a week

i should stop smoking. it's hard to quit. 1 gram is a ton of weed. the half life of THC is over 2 days, so the only way for it to not affect your dopamine is to quit entirely.

i'm also on caber .125 mg 3x a week. tapering down soon as i'm off DAA.

i guess you could say i don't practice what i preach all the time, but i do know marijuana RAPES my libido and erection quality unless i'm on test, in which case it is either neutral or enhanced. When i was on test my girl would look at my boners and say "that looks painful" because it was so engorged. i miss that.

i feel like i'm making muscle gains on this PCT but i really have to pop like 25 mg of levitra to get a boner that is only 75% the quality of being on test. sooo........
.05 grams isn't even a bowl. Lol
My scale won't even measure anything under .1 and even then that's hardly anything.
I have no problem quitting and can stop cold turkey whenever but just choose not to since it my only thing I still partake in.
MJ doesn't seem to effect my libido at all and I'm always busting 2-4 nuts daily when im with my GF. From Thursday to Sunday I busted 8 nuts 2 each day 1am the other in the PM.
My GF has said the same about my boners because when I'm on or feeling really good but natty my dick just looks fucking JACKED and DENSE its like its on Roids. Lol

[Scope75]

evenings only is an improvement, don't get me wrong. with myself i find weed is all or nothing. i have a lot of trouble doing "every other day", i either smoke every day or don't smoke at all...

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as for the gel, i had read that it converts to dht more easily and estrogen less easily. maybe i was wrong. i know that more estro from the gel if you rub it on an area that isn't lean.
I'm the same if I have it I'm smoking it daily but I can leave for days and not think about it once but as soon as I get home im ready to blaze.
Shitty deal is even when I don't have any someone will stop by and then we/I blaze anyways.

Haven't done much looking into the gels but from what most say pinning is the way to go and just easier.

[weekend]

i know, i only need a couple hits from the pipe to be high lol

[Scope75]

i know, i only need a couple hits from the pipe to be high lol
Must be nice....
I've built up a high tolerance and I'm always trying to get higher and that's the main problem/reason I smoke .5-1g a night. I'm high after one pull off my bong but I'll continue to smoke until I go to bed or tell myself that's enough. And i like to smoke before I make dinner, before I eat dinner and right after too.

[Scope75]

What's your thoughts on getting things going natty to just end up running a cycle and then having to pretty much start all over.

I'd love to just be natty and run cycles here and there but then I'd always be chasing my tail during and after pct.

I always do bloods, run support supps, and all that jive that some overlook or just dont care enough to do so I've been responsible in that aspect and always have tons of time between cycles and run 8+ week PCTs and then test boosters and natty AIs for but after too.

Diet is high fat/pro with 1-2 refreeds a week or I backload all my carbs postWO.

[Jelisej]

Sorry to hear about your problems bro', I agree with weekend- before going to TRT it would be a good idea to explore things, even if TRT is best option- there are still other things than needs to be addressed, I alway say that priority when tunning hormones is adrenals, thyroid, sex hormones and optionally GH/IGF,
now in your case I remember while back ago you had some bloodworks done (not hormones) and I suspected 2 things then: 1. your androgens may be low and 2. your diet may not be suitable for you sometimes some folks when they go on low carb diet their hormones take a dive, and especially if its low calorie intake- there are lot of people who after going on "heavy" diet screwed their hormones, sometimes to the point of no return

Another thing is you've been on quite few cycles- and maybe your hormones are very slow in recovering, some folks need a lot of time for their body to tune back

If HCG was working for you than it sounds that problem is not with testicles, they responded well to HCG as it seems.

[Scope75]

Sorry to hear about your problems bro', I agree with weekend- before going to TRT it would be a good idea to explore things, even if TRT is best option- there are still other things than needs to be addressed, I alway say that priority when tunning hormones is adrenals, thyroid, sex hormones and optionally GH/IGF,
now in your case I remember while back ago you had some bloodworks done (not hormones) and I suspected 2 things then: 1. your androgens may be low and 2. your diet may not be suitable for you sometimes some folks when they go on low carb diet their hormones take a dive, and especially if its low calorie intake- there are lot of people who after going on "heavy" diet screwed their hormones, sometimes to the point of no return

Another thing is you've been on quite few cycles- and maybe your hormones are very slow in recovering, some folks need a lot of time for their body to tune back

If HCG was working for you than it sounds that problem is not with testicles, they responded well to HCG as it seems.

Yeah since starting this thread I'm more set to test things out and see what's the cause of my problems rather than just wanting TRT from the get go. Hopefully the bloods will show what's going on and I can take the right steps to correct them or get on TRT.

My diet is low/no carb but not low cal at all and Ive been low carb for years now because carbs even in small amounts daily just doesn't work well for my body comp and I just start getting fat.
I more than likely screwed myself up by being OBEAST (330+ pounds) until about 23 and Id probably be dead now if I wouldn't of changed my life style when I did. I'm almost positive I was a full blown diabetic and I even remember throwing up after every meal with carbs in it during my junior year of HS. Reading now I bet it was ketoacidosis but I never went to the doctor or mentioned it to anyone because I've always just toughed stuff out and hoped for the best.

Also I haven't ran many cycles at all and most of them happened to just be PPs Andro series products.
Other than that Ive ran Epi once a few years ago another cycle of PPs Tbol/Hdrol and then a Epi Andro stacked with Trest cycle. So 5-6 total cycles over a 3-4yr stretch and I had low T before I even started my first run of PPs AndroHard.

Yes HCG had my levels the highest Ive ever seen and that was coming off the Trest Epi andro run. I ran EPI andro and HCG 4-6 weeks past the Trest so I didn't go right into pct after Trest because I figured waiting a few weeks would make PCT easier and better to recover from. I screwed up and never ran bloods post pct though.

[O.N.]

ON that post is just what I needed to read and ill try and see if the doctor is willing to check/test all those things out.
What about DHT should that be tested too?

Only thing is I still plan to cycle some PEDs here and there so is it worth me tring to get everythjng straightened just to tank all my levels and start over again?
Or maybe one everything is straightened out I won't need any PEDs.

If you recover your levels you can still run cycle just be smart about it, running HCG, AI's etc.

[Scope75]

If you recover your levels you can still run cycle just be smart about it, running HCG, AI's etc.
Good to know.
Only thing is I want to start pinning test instead of running oral only cycles.
I have everything to run a few nice test cycles including orals, HCG, and AIs for 12-16 weeks each.
I've been putting them off due to injuries or I always find out I'll be out of town in the middle of the cycle and don't want to take my gear along so I just skip it all together.
So my thoughts are if I plan to pin test and run longer cycles does it make any sense to ever come off or just blast and cruise instead?

I'm going to be 30 and don't plan to have kids but you never know and for sures won't have any if I make it to 35 without any.

[weekend]

why don't you want to have kids?

[Scope75]

why don't you want to have kids?
Really don't think I'll be all that great of a dad or father figure.
I know it's not the same but i don't have any patients for other peoples kids and don't think I'd be able to deal with one of my own.
Not sure I'd want the responsibility that comes with being a dad and having a kid either.
I love my freedom and being able to do what I want when I want and Id lose that if I had a kid.

I did want kids earlier in life but in the past 3yrs that's all changed and it might have to do with how I've been feeling because over the past 3yrs I've completely changed and I'm now really snappy and just let my emotions take over rather than breathing and thinking things threw. I have crazy mood swings and I can go from super happy to feeling like a depressed piece of shit in seconds and I don't think that's how a good father should react and no kid should be raised around someone who's at times just unstable.

My mood switches so fast and often my GF thinks I'm bipolar and she even knows I'm not the same guy she met 3yrs ago.

[weekend]

stop doing drugs haha


when i am on test i have a stronger urge to be monogamous and have kids.

[Scope75]

stop doing drugs haha


when i am on test i have a stronger urge to be monogamous and have kids.

Lol
I wish I had a drug problem to quit.

I've never been a cheater and my urge to have kids is pretty much nonexistent these days.
Only time I think abiut kids is when my GF talks about wanting another one (has 2 from her first marriage) or if I think I might have blasted a little sperm in her the thought will cross my mind.
Even though I've never been a cheater I always want to fuck every decent female I see but I always hold back and don't act on it. Plus I'm a horrible lier with a bad memory so I'd just get caught anyways. Lol

[Jelisej]

Really don't think I'll be all that great of a dad or father figure.
I know it's not the same but i don't have any patients for other peoples kids and don't think I'd be able to deal with one of my own.
Not sure I'd want the responsibility that comes with being a dad and having a kid either.
I love my freedom and being able to do what I want when I want and Id lose that if I had a kid.

My mood switches so fast and often my GF thinks I'm bipolar and she even knows I'm not the same guy she met 3yrs ago.

I think this is most likely part of hormonal issues, it is actually unbelieveble what kind of changes can happen because of hormonal imbalances, only person who has been through it knows all 50 shades of grey.

Now person with diabetes/prediabetes typically do have problems with hormones- leptin resistance (which leads to obesity and other issues), and typically they have a low SHBG which means lot of aromatisation and low tot. testosterone etc...

Very often low testosterone is result of problem elswhere and fixing problem elswhere may fix low test problem, on other hand adding testosterone may not neccessary fix problem, lets say driver feels there is some problem with car- naturally he will slow down and drive slowly to minimise damage- body does the same thing when something is wrong, it basically slows to slow down damage and to increase lifespan-

And again there may be other deficiencies that are better dealt with before TRT,

[weekend]

i hate the thought of cheating. i am saying i am less attracted to the idea of actually doing anything with other women when on test, although i look at them more. my woman seems more satisfying to me when i am on cycle.

just think its interesting.

do you take care of her kids?

[KAB111]

This is funny... My friend that hooked me up with Test for the first time told me to watch for the same thing. Its true. Women are beautiful and I love them but I love my wife more than anything. We have grown closer since Ive been on. ANOTHER good reason to stay on!!!!! J/K....

[Scope75]

I think this is most likely part of hormonal issues, it is actually unbelieveble what kind of changes can happen because of hormonal imbalances, only person who has been through it knows all 50 shades of grey.

Now person with diabetes/prediabetes typically do have problems with hormones- leptin resistance (which leads to obesity and other issues), and typically they have a low SHBG which means lot of aromatisation and low tot. testosterone etc...

Very often low testosterone is result of problem elswhere and fixing problem elswhere may fix low test problem, on other hand adding testosterone may not neccessary fix problem, lets say driver feels there is some problem with car- naturally he will slow down and drive slowly to minimise damage- body does the same thing when something is wrong, it basically slows to slow down damage and to increase lifespan-

And again there may be other deficiencies that are better dealt with before TRT,

As a mechanic I totally get what your saying.

On to leptin...
I don't think I produce much if any of that because I'm never satisfied..... theres no end to my hunger or ability to eat and once I start eating it's hard to stop but its easy for me to stay faster and never get cravings.

I'll be bringing this all up next Tuesday during my appointment.
The more info I'm able to gather before walking in the better because it'll show him I'm serious about doing something.

Only thing is I won't or don't want to take any of those funky mood drugs because I've tried one and fucking hated it. Think it was Xanax is that what people take when they fly to chill out. I just took one because the girl I was with said they make you feel good not because I have a problem flying. other than that I've never messed with pills.

[Scope75]

i hate the thought of cheating. i am saying i am less attracted to the idea of actually doing anything with other women when on test, although i look at them more. my woman seems more satisfying to me when i am on cycle.

just think its interesting.

do you take care of her kids?


No never take care of them by myself. They are 11-13 though so they can wipe there own ass lol

[weekend]

live with you though?

[Scope75]

live with you though?

Nope she has her own place and I have mine.
I couldn't stand/deal with them living with me.
Not in the right mindset to have other people live with me.

[weekend]

interesting shit...

couldn't stand even the thought of living alone lol

[Scope75]

interesting shit...

couldn't stand even the thought of living alone lol
Not only along but without a computer, TV/dish and I don't even have a couch or a full size fridge. Lol
My house is a gym that I live in. Battle ropes and some DBs in the kitchen area, a garage full of iron and cardio equipment and a bed.
Bad/Sad thing is even though I have all the tools around me when I get in a slump I can't even get myself to lift or do anything when it's right in front of me.

[weekend]

i just got a dip bar, and 3 dumbbells lol

2 60's and a 35

useful but....

i really enjoy going to the gym because its an excuse to be out and see people

so do you just look at your phone and hit swole source all night? lol

[Scope75]

Some nights lol.

I'm always reading or listening to a podcast.

Just got Hulu and watch docs on my phone gonna by a cheap monitor so it'll be a full size screen.

[O.N.]

I would be running your cycles properly with HCG and seeing if you can recover when you come off.

I would avoid doing HRT without the use of HCG combined.....some doctors in the UK and Europe are now prescribing HCG with HRT to maintain better testicular function, possible natural production of testosterone restoration in the future, testicle size and also to avoid testicle pain which can happen in some people who have been on HRT for long periods of time. HCG will also keep you producing intratesticular testosterone which does play a role in libido and sexual function.

[Scope75]

I would be running your cycles properly with HCG and seeing if you can recover when you come off.

I would avoid doing HRT without the use of HCG combined.....some doctors in the UK and Europe are now prescribing HCG with HRT to maintain better testicular function, possible natural production of testosterone restoration in the future, testicle size and also to avoid testicle pain which can happen in some people who have been on HRT for long periods of time. HCG will also keep you producing intratesticular testosterone which does play a role in libido and sexual function.
I'll for sures be running HCG from the start with every cycle.
Also if I'm able/end up on TRT/HRT I'll be asking for a script for test, HCG, and a AI at the minumum.

[Scope75]

Looked into Dr Crisler that lt1head posted about and there's lots of good info to be read.
Other than the loss of libido I have all the signs of Low T.

This week/weekend I'll be making a list of things I'll be bringing up and if you guys have any thing to add im all ears and ready to listen.

Thanks for all you guys sharing your knowledge and info with me.

[weekend]

difficult to recall words, listlessness, irritability (feeling like being alone) are all symptoms

[Scope75]

difficult to recall words, listlessness, irritability (feeling like being alone) are all symptoms

Check, check, check....

Have all those.

[Jelisej]

As a mechanic I totally get what your saying.
On to leptin...
I don't think I produce much if any of that because I'm never satisfied..... theres no end to my hunger or ability to eat and once I start eating it's hard to stop but its easy for me to stay faster and never get cravings.
I'll be bringing this all up next Tuesday during my appointment.
The more info I'm able to gather before walking in the better because it'll show him I'm serious about doing something.
Only thing is I won't or don't want to take any of those funky mood drugs because I've tried one and fucking hated it. Think it was Xanax is that what people take when they fly to chill out. I just took one because the girl I was with said they make you feel good not because I have a problem flying. other than that I've never messed with pills.

Yeah, does seems that you are leptin resistant, in theory restoring leptin sensitivity would fix everything else but practically I never heard of anyone accomplishing that task- so it looks like TRT or more accurately HRT is most likely scenario.
I think that once your hormones are tunned it would normalise your neurotransmitters or at least greatly improve things which would sort out your mood/etc,

also I'm pretty sure that some other hormones are scewed up, and you need to check your adrenals, thyroid- make sure you test for presence of antibodies (as it is your first test to rule out autoimmune proccess) vitamin d, B6, B12, feritin need to be check and you may be low on some of these.

[O.N.]

Before any thing it seems like the issue here is pot and estrogen....a blood test will confirm this.

Pot can damage/kill leydig cells

[Scope75]

Before any thing it seems like the issue here is pot and estrogen....a blood test will confirm this.

Pot can damage/kill leydig cells

Just to let you all know today is the last day I'll be smoking MJ daily and for a good while.

Bloods will be done next week and when I gather up my list of things Id like checked I'll post it here to see if I'm missing any key things.

[ECTD]

jeez guys. all this weed is ruining your shit stuff is a little far fetched.
"in one study heavy chronic users were found to have similar levels of testosterone compared to casual users at baseline and did not notice any significant alterations after a 21 day period of intense marijuana smoking"
"a subsequent study also found there were no changes in LH levels over a 21 day study period"
also marijuana increases dopamine levels and actually decreases prolactin.
and O.N. it inhibits leydig cell function but does not damage or kill them. *in vivo*

[Scope75]

Yeah, does seems that you are leptin resistant, in theory restoring leptin sensitivity would fix everything else but practically I never heard of anyone accomplishing that task- so it looks like TRT or more accurately HRT is most likely scenario.
I think that once your hormones are tunned it would normalise your neurotransmitters or at least greatly improve things which would sort out your mood/etc,

also I'm pretty sure that some other hormones are scewed up, and you need to check your adrenals, thyroid- make sure you test for presence of antibodies (as it is your first test to rule out autoimmune proccess) vitamin d, B6, B12, feritin need to be check and you may be low on some of these.

I'll start searching around to see if there's anything I can do about my leptin, but it sounds like once your resistant there's no coming back.
Thyroid is another area I want tested and know it needs to be looked into.

[Scope75]

Guess this guy herd us talking.

T Nation | A Lifter's Guide To Marijuana (http://www.t-nation.com/training/lifters-guide-to-marijuana)

- - - Updated - - -

Damn you Internet......

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jelisej again.

[Scope75]

Should I stop all supps now before my bloodwork.
I'm only taking a T3 supp that's iodine, mag, zinc, selenium, and L-Tyrosine.
Been taking it for 30 days.

[Jelisej]

Well, iodine, mag, zinc, selenium are needed for proper functioning of thyroid but I dont think they have significant effect on hormones, you may continue to take them except for night before blood draw. For L-tyrosine not quite sure, its precursor to some nuerotransmitters but it has tendency to convert different from person to person, and also it may have an influence on hormones but not sure how much, maybe to stop taking it earlier for any case.

I was wondering if l-tyrosine has an impact on your mood? for some it has no effect, for some it has beneficial effect, but for some it can cause agitation etc...

[Scope75]

It's all in a single cap so I'll just stop taking it all together now.

I've never took L-tyrosine alone but i have some if you'd like me to take it to see. I can do it tomorrow just let me know what dose.
I can tell you I get agitated very easily. It's why my GF thinks I'm bipolor. Lol
For example this Saturday I asked for heavy cream at the Coffee shop and the last time he lied and said he didn't have any and this time he said he'd have to charge me and after saying FUCK THAT I just got more and more pissed the closer I got to the door and once outside I just vented and was enraged for no reason. Yeah it's that bad and I was never like that a few years ago. Good thing is I never act on these feelings of rage.

[weekend]

Marijuana does not increase dopamine. It permanently decreases it over time.

[weekend]

It's basic physiology: lower dopamine -> higher prolactin. Higher prolactin -> lower sex hormone production. End of story.

Lower dopamine also accounts for a lot of the feelings scope has had (including erection quality)

- - - Updated - - -

Dopamine on its own that is, the sex hormones play a separate role even though they are affected by the lack of dopamine downstream.

[Jelisej]

It's all in a single cap so I'll just stop taking it all together now.

I've never took L-tyrosine alone but i have some if you'd like me to take it to see. I can do it tomorrow just let me know what dose.
I can tell you I get agitated very easily. It's why my GF thinks I'm bipolor. Lol
For example this Saturday I asked for heavy cream at the Coffee shop and the last time he lied and said he didn't have any and this time he said he'd have to charge me and after saying FUCK THAT I just got more and more pissed the closer I got to the door and once outside I just vented and was enraged for no reason. Yeah it's that bad and I was never like that a few years ago. Good thing is I never act on these feelings of rage.

Well, it is not without reason only you overreacted a bit. As we know that your E2 is usually on high side, its not unexpected reaction high E2- high serotonine action, and as we can assume that your dopamine is low, also if your adrenal hormones are low ( I suspect they are) than you probably found plenty reasons to hate all world. Shifts in adrenal hormones can cause serious reaction, its not unusal for people when start with pregnenolone to have what is (wrongly) called "roid rage".

No way you're bipolar- your situation is similar to that of "woman on period"
You've been very active member here, with so many posts, it would be noticed if you had disorder,

[Scope75]

My erections or great when I'm visually simulated by looking at it go in and out or she's rubbing my balls but other than that I some times loose a little firmness and blood flow but I always get the job done and I'm horny as shit too or at least I am with my GF. I love making her orgasim... Makes me feel real good.
I do stop smoking when with her too. I get high before leaving my house Friday then nothing until Sunday or Monday.
But again today is my last day smoking. 2 bowls and I'm throwing the rest out.

[Scope75]

Well, it is not without reason only you overreacted a bit. As we know that your E2 is usually on high side, its not unexpected reaction high E2- high serotonine action, and as we can assume that your dopamine is low, also if your adrenal hormones are low ( I suspect they are) than you probably found plenty reasons to hate all world. Shifts in adrenal hormones can cause serious reaction, its not unusal for people when start with pregnenolone to have what is (wrongly) called "roid rage".

No way you're bipolar- your situation is similar to that of "woman on period"
You've been very active member here, with so many posts, it would be noticed if you had disorder,

If I just overreacted I do that way to much. I'm real aggressive and protective over my GF because she so much small than most and disrespectful people really annoy me when I'm with her. I'm not a jealous guy or one of those controlling guys with her either but I speak my mind more than I should though and that causes problems.

Yeah I'm pretty sure I'm not bipolor or something.
I have a good head on my shoulders but I just lose it sometimes or have a ton of ups and downs.

I will add that my body comp in the last 2-3 weeks has really improved and my stubborn chest fat seems to finally be coming off.

[Jelisej]

Well, I'm also not greatest fun of marijuana, but having it now-and-then is not that bad, so you dont really need to throw it away- just use it on rare occassions.
We all have our sins and vices, wheter its stimulation drinks, doughnuts, beer, or something else- and no one had serious problem with one-two doughnuts now and then...
Just keep pot for some special occassions.
At some point you may stop completely if you dont feel any desire, but IMO abruptly stopping usually does not resolve problem and very often people return to their vice.

[Scope75]

I'd keep it around but it'll just get smoked tomorrow and I just need to get it out for the time being.
Not dependent on it just like it. Plus it'll get me some points with my GF.

[Jelisej]

Yeah, just reduce it and again and again, and it will be less and less frequent, till it gets to the point that completely stopping it will not make big difference. And your mind will get used being without pot.

When people abruptly stop, its very often ineffective method, and also people continue to "dream" about their former vice.
And it seems that its not even healthy thing, it can be shock to organism.. It seems that when people suddenly stop cigarettes very often get sudden health problems.

[ECTD]

Marijuana does not increase dopamine. It permanently decreases it over time.

not sure where you're hearing these things or if you are just making them up.
if marijuana lowered dopamine levels you WOULD NOT get the "high" effect from it.
and it's been shown to not be a strong enough agonist to cause suppression of natural dopamine production.
sure if you are smoking a lot daily and come off all the sudden your dopamine levels will be lower because they were superficially raised by the marijuana and without marijuana your body will start producing it on its own in smaller amounts but after a few days off levels return to normal

[Scope75]

Does anyone have or know where to find a checklist of things to ask and go over.
I'll be doing my own this weekend but thought Id ask so I have something to base what I'll be writing down on.

[weekend]

ECTD, you didn't even try to google what I said obviously. All you did was parrot some dumb ass shit. Done gone n' pissed me off. I don't just come on here to make shit up. Also this is what I study in school.

Marijuana causes an immediate drop in dopamine activity which is sustained over time. Dopamine is why adderall, meth, and many other drugs get you "high", but if you analyzed that for a minute you would realize the feeling you get on those drugs (confident, aggressive, motivated), is the near opposite of marijuana (lazy, hungry, self conscious, introspective, more altruistic).

But don't listen to my analysis of the actual effects because that's just my logic, go google "marijuana lowers dopamine".

- - - Updated - - -

You said "hearing these things". This implies to me that you "heard" marijuana increases dopamine.

I never heard those things, I read them in my physiology textbook and did a ton of further reading on the interwebs

[ECTD]

ECTD, you didn't even try to google what I said obviously. All you did was parrot some dumb ass shit. Done gone n' pissed me off. I don't just come on here to make shit up. Also this is what I study in school.

Marijuana causes an immediate drop in dopamine activity which is sustained over time. Dopamine is why adderall, meth, and many other drugs get you "high", but if you analyzed that for a minute you would realize the feeling you get on those drugs (confident, aggressive, motivated), is the near opposite of marijuana (lazy, hungry, self conscious, introspective, more altruistic).

But don't listen to my analysis of the actual effects because that's just my logic, go google "marijuana lowers dopamine".
Lol funny. Relax kid. And from everything your saying it seems like you don't know how to properly research things.
I'm not going to argue with a kid about this because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Obviously I have googled it that's why I'm posting these things so people don't get the wrong information from you

[ECTD]

Hearing these things as you hear them from other people like you who think they know what they are talking about but really have no clue.

[Scope75]

Well since MJ is no longer part of my day lets just stick to talking about TRT/HRT and that'll end your guys MJ debate. Lol

If not I don't mind and will continue to read what you guys post.

[Scope75]

Gave this a read this morning and thinking about printing it out to share with my Doctor.

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc

[ECTD]

Well since MJ is no longer part of my day lets just stick to talking about TRT/HRT and that'll end your guys MJ debate. Lol

If not I don't mind and will continue to read what you guys post.
I just don't like people being completely misinformed about things. That's the worst thing about forums is you have people who completely believe what they think trying to prove science wrong.
I will stop talking about mj per your request.

[Scope75]

I just don't like people being completely misinformed about things. That's the worst thing about forums is you have people who completely believe what they think trying to prove science wrong.
I will stop talking about mj per your request.


Either way the MJ isn't helping my situation out any so even if it's not the cause of problems its stopped for the time being.

[weekend]

Decreased dopamine brain reactivity in marijuana abusers is associated with negative emotionality and addiction severity (http://www.pnas.org/content/111/30/E3149.abstract)

Long-term cannabis use may blunt the brain's motivation system (http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_1-7-2013-11-49-21)

Smoking cannabis really DOES make people lazy because it affects the area of the brain responsible for motivation | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2352695/Smoking-cannabis-really-DOES-make-people-lazy-affects-area-brain-responsible-motivation.html)

[ECTD]

Okay weekend. Read those 500 times. You obviously don't read very thoroughly.
1. Is about addiction potential.
2. They say it "may be the cause" but obviously didn't do enough research to have a definite answer.
And 3 It only cause a decrease in the staitium of the brain. Not overall dopamine levels. Which will return to normal since it is not a potent chemical like meth, heroin or cocaine that damages your system. Lowered dopamine from marijuana is not permanent and only in a part of the brain.

[lt1head]

Gave this a read this morning and thinking about printing it out to share with my Doctor.

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc

I just took notes and laid out what I wanted to do, then emailed my doc that to back everything up. appts arent long enough to read that whole thing through, for me at least. or maybe highlight key points or something.

You may want to look into subQ injections because of the E issues. long story short, subq is a more gradual increase of T and therefore has less of a negative effect on conversion rate etc than IM. And you can also do injections 2-3 times a week no problem, keep everything nice and even.

subQ studies:
31 | January | 2014 | Boston Testosterone Partners (https://bostontestosterone.wordpress.com/2014/01/31/)

[Scope75]

I just took notes and laid out what I wanted to do, then emailed my doc that to back everything up. appts arent long enough to read that whole thing through, for me at least. or maybe highlight key points or something.

You may want to look into subQ injections because of the E issues. long story short, subq is a more gradual increase of T and therefore has less of a negative effect on conversion rate etc than IM. And you can also do injections 2-3 times a week no problem, keep everything nice and even.

subQ studies:
31 | January | 2014 | Boston Testosterone Partners (https://bostontestosterone.wordpress.com/2014/01/31/)

The office I go to spends a good amount of time with each person or has in the past but your right that might be to much to ask from him during that session.
Do you happen to have your notes still. If so could you post them or pm them to me.

I know if I end up on TRT/HRT I'll be asking for test c so I wouldn't be against IM or SQ.

[weekend]

Okay weekend. Read those 500 times. You obviously don't read very thoroughly.
1. Is about addiction potential.
2. They say it "may be the cause" but obviously didn't do enough research to have a definite answer.
And 3 It only cause a decrease in the staitium of the brain. Not overall dopamine levels. Which will return to normal since it is not a potent chemical like meth, heroin or cocaine that damages your system. Lowered dopamine from marijuana is not permanent and only in a part of the brain.

such a lie omg

[ECTD]

such a lie omg
Lmfao. You read it 500 times.

[weekend]

1320

- - - Updated - - -

1321

[weekend]

1322

- - - Updated - - -

http://i.imgur.com/FHtcdBJ.png

- - - Updated - - -

there we go, seems like the thread is back on track

[Jelisej]

OK, I'm not going to add any research on marijuana as there are many and mostly they contradict itself, and in reality as usual people who perform research are biased- which does affect outcome, but I will add my own opinion
personally I dont think that marijuana is good for average user- there are many conditions/situation where marijuana is very helpful, now I dont remeber details but simply said- I know that it does "calm" down some people and it can have long term effect which is definitely helpful for some people but not for most
it is also (IMO) most effective aid with epilepsy, its great anesthetic and my firm conclusion is that marijuana has a strong case for anti-cancer research

Now, it does has a dark side, it affect sperm, it does lower testosterone (not sure how much though) and it does raise E2, there is no doubt that there is strong connection between gyno and marijuana, but I think its because androgen:estrogen ratio rather than prolactin, as I firmly beleive that prolactin does not cause gyno.
Now, measuring neurotransmitters is a tricky bit- I dont that we have a really proven way to measure it, researchers doing test on animals do it by measuring some electric pulses if I'm not wrong? Anyway, my point is that I would take these researches on marijuana-dopamine with grain of salt.

Some studies show that marijuana lowers IQ- but thats incorrect its just the fact that people with lower IQ are more likely to use not marijuana, but all other stuff as well

Studies show that it lowers one part of the brain but it seems that brain has a way to deal with this by increasing communication in that area, so effect in practice is not really noticed- tough, to me it does not sound good.

My final opinion is that (unless used for medical reason) marijuana should be use on rare occasions. I dont think that one here-and-then it will cause any issues, but for Gods sake if you use it, be a Man and dont justify it to others.

I've just eaten 4 "pain au chocolate" which is somewhere on top of "dont do list" around 1500 bad calories, adn all I can say- thoroughly enjoyed it... And I'll do it again.



Now guys, we can all agree to disagree? Lets get back to "TRT" topic.

[Scope75]

Did a bunch more reading today and the more I do the more it seems to make me shake my head because I should've tackled this problem when it first came up.
Guess toughing it out is catching up to me now.

[Jelisej]

Did a bunch more reading today and the more I do the more it seems to make me shake my head because I should've tackled this problem when it first came up.
Guess toughing it out is catching up to me now.

I think you thinking too much, the French have that expression "Que Sera, Sera"- "Whatever Will Be, Will Be"

All your problems have a root somewhere long back in time, and thinking about it its not going to change... Your diet is good, your exercising, and all other things will start coming into its place, and in year time your feel better than ever.
These days we know so much about TRT, that it is nothing to worry about. Go and see your doc relaxed.

You may find this thread helpful: Blood work, can someone take a look at it please (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/2173-blood-work-can-someone-take-look-please.html)

[Scope75]

I think you thinking too much, the French have that expression "Que Sera, Sera"- "Whatever Will Be, Will Be"

All your problems have a root somewhere long back in time, and thinking about it its not going to change... Your diet is good, your exercising, and all other things will start coming into its place, and in year time your feel better than ever.
These days we know so much about TRT, that it is nothing to worry about. Go and see your doc relaxed.

You may find this thread helpful: Blood work, can someone take a look at it please (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/2173-blood-work-can-someone-take-look-please.html)
I hear you man I hear you.
I'm also done researching because tomorrow is Friday and I'm not about to spend my weekend researching when like you said whatever will be, will be.

Now I just hope my doctor will do all he can or send me to someone that can.

[VayneZ]

This thread was a really really interesting read! Thanks for this all of you!!! But Especially to Scope for starting it!!!! And it all happened in 2 days?!?! wow!!

I haven't smoked since 6 years ago. But my display pic was taken when I used to smoke grams a day. Sometimes I even feel that back then, I used to look better than I do today. Just saying :rolleyes:

But, true thing: What will be will be. I'll be here following see where this ends up going to

[lt1head]

Scope, my notes are all hand written (I know oldschool AF), and I took them having already decided TRT was the way to go. If you decide to go that way, I'd be more than happy to type it up.

Only do as much research as you can without getting anxious. There really is always something new you could be reading, so just take your sweet ass time. I'm pretty sure the forum wont let you fuck anything up :D

At your appointment you pretty much only need to get bloods (make sure he/she is comfortable treating hormone issues), I'd go with everything Jel and Crisler recommend. Once you get those, things should be pretty damn clear moving forward. Make sure they send you a copy as soon as its available as well.

[Scope75]

I have a list of things I'll take in to ask to have checked into and just go from there.

Just writing all this stuff out has even relieved some of the mental stress I've been having but in the past I know I'm just 1 small thing away from a blowout or just feeling down. I'm really looking forward to next weeks appointment and just hope my doctor is understanding and willing to listen because if not I'll probably go ballistic in that place. Lol

[Scope75]

VayneZ yeah all in just a few days. It just shows you how good of a Crew there is on SwoleSource.com
This is the only site I post this kinda stuff up on because I know the guys here will take it serious and are always willing to help out.

Again thank you all for taking the time to post what you know to help me out. It really means a lot and I truely appreciate your time.

Can't wait to see and post up my bloods.

[O.N.]

I hope you try to recover your testosterone than taking the bandaid option of HRT.....like i said your mechanics are all working you need a tune up and get off the pot. When you have taken HCG in the past and felt its benefits this shows that it's all there and willing to work when required, now you just need to do your part.

A few small doses of HCG will get the ball rolling and then follow it with some Res100 and anything else your blood work shows that needs attention you wont require HRT.

[Scope75]

I hope you try to recover your testosterone than taking the bandaid option of HRT.....like i said your mechanics are all working you need a tune up and get off the pot. When you have taken HCG in the past and felt its benefits this shows that it's all there and willing to work when required, now you just need to do your part.

A few small doses of HCG will get the ball rolling and then follow it with some Res100 and anything else your blood work shows that needs attention you wont require HRT.

I'll be mentioning that too because if I can get things going natty id like that to happen if not I'm fine starting my life long path of HRT.
Whatever happens I know I'll be better off than just feeling the way I do because feeling down and out isn't much fun.

[Scope75]

Would having sex be good or bad for test results?
Either way it won't stop me from having it just wanted to ask/know.

[BBG]

I'm pretty sure being aroused/having sex often increases natural testosterone in the long run, but I'm not sure the acute effects of sex on testosterone.

[Scope75]

That's what I've read too just didn't know if having a few active days before a test would skew the results.

[Scope75]

Tomorrow is the big day.
I'll post bloods as soon as I get them.

[Scope75]

Just got to work but I'll post my list of what I'd like looked into here shortly.

[Scope75]

Here's my list.
Let me know if I'm missing any key things and I'll add them to it.

Test total/free/bio
LH
FSH
SHBG
Estrogen sensitive for males
Cortisol
Prolactin
LFT
DHT
CBC
CMP
GH/IGF
A1C
TSH
T3
T4
Vit D
B6
B12
Ferritin

[Scope75]

Going in for bloods tomorrow morning.
He said he'd test TEST and estrogen and a few other things but not what I had listed just to take a look at things first. I told him I wasn't looking to get on TRT thats why I wanted so much looked and since I sometimes snore and don't sleep good he might look into that because I also have night sweats and a few other things that's on every other checklist.
I'll go see him next Wednesday to go over it and go from there. If at that time things look bleak all ask for him to test everything on my list.
So until next Wednesday I'll have no new info.

[O.N.]

You also need cholesterol total, LDL, HDL, triglycerides

[Scope75]

You also need cholesterol total, LDL, HDL, triglycerides
That's all part of regular bloodwork.

[lt1head]

So you are doing these exactly:
Test, Total and bio-available
Estrogen (sensitive)
regular bloodwork?

These will tell us what we already know, that there is a problem somewhere hurting these values, and then you'll have to come back and ask for what you already asked. I can't come up with a reason not to do the rest, other than we wants more visits out of you. I don't know man, I'd be weary of sticking with this guy. Did he seem like he has a clue or no? or past TRT experience? If he decides you need TRT is he just going to cookie cutter protocol you? does he respect the knowledge you have on the subject?

Also, I encourage bringing in your research materials and notes etc to prove you know what youre talking about. Most Dr.s assume their patients knowledge is hearsay unless you prove otherwise.

Curious to see where you're at man

[Scope75]

He's just gonna run what he wants and if nothing comes of it I'll make sure he request everything I have listed to be checked into.
These visits cost me nothing out of pocket other than the drive and I won't make that drive more than 3 times with nothing coming from it before switching doctors.
He seemed cool and interested in figuring things out but maybe my list was a little big for him to want to run them all or any of them since it's not the norm.
I'm not to worried about it and it'll all workout in the end.

[Scope75]

I forgot to mention he said I might have Low T but feels there's other reasons for that and that's why I didn't push to hard to have my list ran because he seemed like he'd be running labs on stuff to look into why I'm feeling the way I am.
The doctor wasn't some old guy probably 30-35 or he just looks younger so I'm hoping he's up on his game and will be able to help me you and get things sorted out. If not I'll just request to see another doctor or go elsewhere but I have a good feeling this guy will be willing to do what I ask if it comes down to it.
He was also impressed and glad I'm trying to figure this out instead of looking for a quick fix and I told him it would be great to be fixed up without having to be on a life long treatment like TRT/HRT or have to take anything for my depression and mood swings.
I know I won't get on any harsh Meds because I'd rather live the way I am than be a pill popper zombie.

[Scope75]

Go back in today at 1:45 to go over the blood work and see what he actually had tested.

I'll be taking my list and info from this thread and others back in with me too because if I'm not happy I'll request that more bloods be ran or to speak to another doctor.

[Bucks]

I was just planning on going to a hrt club . Pricy but I'm old an would fit right in to get a script.

[weekend]

^seems worth it to go through a GP. Only $10 a vial with insurance...

Excited to see those bloods scope! How you feeling without the weed? Any different?

[Scope75]

I'm excited too. Hoping for the best but whatever happens happens.

I Feel fine with out the MJ and maybe a little more clear thinking. I'll admit I did smoke last night but only because buddy stopped by and had some other than that I won't be smoking or buying any to smoke. I feel if I smoke 1-2 times a week wont really effect me negativity and Inhave no plans to start up smoking every day.

Bucks I'd also hit up your GP because it's way cheaper that way. You'll be able to get your test and pins right from the pharmacy and for damn cheap too.

[Bucks]

My ins only wants to do Andro gel for options. My boss got it and that's all they would pay for.

[lt1head]

If you have to pay cost because of insurance, test cyp is like 64 bucks for 10mil. I don't know what a club costs, but I bet you'll be saving money even paying for it all.

[Scope75]

Well the results are in and I'm not all that happy with what was tested but enough was tested to show I have a few issues. Lol
http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/A13CD79A-2871-497F-9563-62B867BF26F8_zpss1tydlqg.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/A13CD79A-2871-497F-9563-62B867BF26F8_zpss1tydlqg.jpg.html)
http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/8C16487F-6485-4105-8527-B3B63FD54BEF_zps6jn6lwg2.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/8C16487F-6485-4105-8527-B3B63FD54BEF_zps6jn6lwg2.jpg.html)
http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/CB023F53-8C22-441C-A194-590869A13988_zpscacgmray.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/CB023F53-8C22-441C-A194-590869A13988_zpscacgmray.jpg.html)
Looking at those should tell you why I'm not that happy bcause things I assumed would be tested didn't get tested and I didn't notice that until right now. I'll be calling the office to see about getting a lipid panel added to tomorrow's bloods.
For insurance proposes I'll be Going back to get more bloods done tomorrow moring and then go back to see him on the 29th.
He's running more test now to find the source of the problem. He asked if I was against TRT and I said no but if want injections and that won't happen off the bat with him because he pushes the gels and said I'd have to start with those if I wanted to work with him on it.

[Jelisej]

My ins only wants to do Andro gel for options. My boss got it and that's all they would pay for.

For some guys testosterone gels work quite fine, if not you can use combo of gel and test e; (usual problem with test. gel is that it cant raise test. levels enough of its very erratic)
Combination of testosterone gel and injections is not a bad thing,
gel brings bit more DHT out,

[Jelisej]

Scope, you need to check adrenals thouroughly, ACTH test would be good to see as well as 4X saliva cortisol
Test, is low thats needless to say

your B vits may be low as well, maybe ferritin, low vitamin d is not surprise

SHBG is very high which is bit surprise, even tough your E2 is probably high

you'll definitely need exem/aromasin as AI

you exercised heavily prior test?

[Scope75]

Scope, you need to check adrenals thouroughly, ACTH test would be good to see as well as 4X saliva cortisol
Test, is low thats needless to say

your B vits may be low as well, maybe ferritin, low vitamin d is not surprise

SHBG is very high which is bit surprise, even tough your E2 is probably high

you'll definitely need exem/aromasin as AI

you exercised heavily prior test?
Trying to get ahold of the office right now but if not those won't be tested.
B levels are being checked I know that much. Lol

No exercise at all for 2-3 days before the test other than what I do at work since I'm always doing something kinda taxing.

[lt1head]

Personally, I believe having high estrogen is PC for not using gels just because gels typically aggravate estrogen issues. Crisler drops the gel when E is an issue as well.

From a body building standpoint, injections keep your levels pretty even throughout a 24 hour period. Gels start you off high and then during the night you're back down until the next morning dose. So would you rather be 900 ng/dl all week or 12 hours a day? Not sure what the drop off is with the gels exactly, but personal experience tells me its sharp.

[Scope75]

Fuck office is closed.
Guess I'll just have to wait and see what's all tested this round.

He seemed talkative on out TRT so maybe that's the route he wants to go and I'm game as long as we monitor everything we can to cover all the bases.
I'll see I can talk him into injections because of my active life style making gels a hassle for me and I'd rather just inject weekly and have it done with.
I hate transdermals for the fact I have to apply them everyday so damn sure won't want to do that forever.

[Scope75]

I guess I'll just call in the am.

[Jelisej]

Personally, I believe having high estrogen is PC for not using gels just because gels typically aggravate estrogen issues. Crisler drops the gel when E is an issue as well.
From a body building standpoint, injections keep your levels pretty even throughout a 24 hour period. Gels start you off high and then during the night you're back down until the next morning dose. So would you rather be 900 ng/dl all week or 12 hours a day? Not sure what the drop off is with the gels exactly, but personal experience tells me its sharp.

Well, E2 has to be controlled regardless of gel/injections. Practically Gel convert less to E2 and more to DHT than injections...
Some spikes in testosterone is actually good for the body (from anecdotal evidence) and in theory gel follows natural rhythm more than injections, but problem is that levels fluctuate a lot even at same time of day, and absorbtion is problem, some poeple do have a thick skin :)
and eventually for most gel just does not raise levels enough...
Tough combining gel and injection is what I would reccommend as gel gives a bit of kick (brings DHT up a bit).

[Jelisej]

Fuck office is closed.
Guess I'll just have to wait and see what's all tested this round.
He seemed talkative on out TRT so maybe that's the route he wants to go and I'm game as long as we monitor everything we can to cover all the bases.
I'll see I can talk him into injections because of my active life style making gels a hassle for me and I'd rather just inject weekly and have it done with.
I hate transdermals for the fact I have to apply them everyday so damn sure won't want to do that forever.

You dont need to rush, there is plenty things to do before TRT, I would start supplementing vit D, and in your case I would be liberal, than vitamin b, etc...
and is important to check adrenals as otherwise starting TRT before that will bring a lot of problems like blood pressure, water retention, moonface, you may feel even more tired etc.. it can even lead to "crash"...
adding other minerals is not bad idea...

do you have any issues with kidneys? to me it looks like you're overtrained, like you lifting very har and heavy- otherwise it may be kidney problem

[Scope75]

What test for adrenal and kidneys?

- - - Updated - - -

What test for adrenal and kidneys?

[Jelisej]

Ok, first- I want to say that with weighlifters/bodybuilders and lot of fitness guys will have some paramaters higher than reference ranges arem especially if the protein intake is high- it is case for example with creatinine, so some elevation is normal, but when its serious its hard to say as when they were making reference ranges weighlifters/bodybuilders were not included in high numbers, and majority of them did not have as high protein intake as today- so how elevated is normal, who knows? and on other hand it does seems that same category of people do have higher incidence of kidney problems, and it seems that AAS can damage kidneys (not sure how much and which one)- so in reality its hard to tell when is time for alarm or what reference ranges should really look like , but in you case I think is better to check it more thoroughly as you creatinine is always elevated even when you dont train for few days and some other factors look suspicious- personally I think you can start with dipstick- you can buy OTC some dipstick that shows lot of stuff, and there are some that suggest kidney problems- in my case sometimes dipstick result was ok, sometimes not- and thats common for weightlifters/bbs- but if its always bad result than something is wrong.

Chronic Kidney Disease-Exams and Tests (http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/chronic-kidney-disease-exams-and-tests)
Tests to Measure Kidney Function, Damage and Detect Abnormalities | The National Kidney Foundation (https://www.kidney.org/atoz/content/kidneytests)

As for adrenals, defintelly check cortisol, progesterone is good to see and optionally DHEA(s), preferably best is to do 4X cortisol to see how it fluctuate during day and preferably salivary (if not than just do standard)

now, very good test is ACTH stimulation test, I would say thats gold standard when problem is present as then you can tell wheter problem lies within pituary of within adrenal gland itself.

[Scope75]

Here's another round of bloods.
http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/E9DFEB01-6E48-4AA1-8626-F0B34E875F5F_zpsvgeswdau.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/E9DFEB01-6E48-4AA1-8626-F0B34E875F5F_zpsvgeswdau.jpg.html)

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/479A2291-BDAB-4700-AFC2-96742E712845_zpsdacpvve4.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/479A2291-BDAB-4700-AFC2-96742E712845_zpsdacpvve4.jpg.html)

[Jelisej]

This is really low testosterone level,
I'm afraid that it unlikely that any kind of natural test boosters will be good enough, so you may start with HRT, tough you need to check thyroid, adrenals as you may need to supplement some of those, and before anything else start with vitamins/minerals, vit d, b vitamins, you need to check ferritin to se if iron is needed, magnesium is always helpful, you can continue with selenium and iodine,
your SHBG is high, but on TRT thats not that bad thing, only you'll need slightly higher dose of testosterone.

[weekend]

Do you have estrogen numbers?

Interesting how fsh is higher than LH.

Depending on estrogen, I would try Exem with high E numbers or torem with normal/low numbers. To see what comes of it.

Or you can say fuck it and get on test, cause that is dirt low lol and prob won't feel that great on Serms all the time anyway. But you've cycled a decent amount of times so maybe another pct would help.

Depends what you want man. but you'll need to dial in estrogen regardless of choice so make sure you at least have one number on that before you make your next move.

[Scope75]

This is really low testosterone level,
I'm afraid that it unlikely that any kind of natural test boosters will be good enough, so you may start with HRT, tough you need to check thyroid, adrenals as you may need to supplement some of those, and before anything else start with vitamins/minerals, vit d, b vitamins, you need to check ferritin to se if iron is needed, magnesium is always helpful, you can continue with selenium and iodine,
your SHBG is high, but on TRT thats not that bad thing, only you'll need slightly higher dose of testosterone.

Screw Low T I have NO T. Lol

If the cost isn't to high I'll source my own bloods threw privatemdlabs.com. Just not sure what tests I need to look into and purchase or if there's just 1 very extensive test I can get threw them. If you know of any it would be much appreciated if you'd link me up to them or just some info on what to look for on that site.
still need to get those dipsticks you mentioned last week.

I have all you mentioned on hand and will start them up tonight.
Any recomended doseages and when's the best time to take the them.

[weekend]

I mean megadose your vitamin d, 30k iu a day for a week should get levels up.

Get estradiol sensitive.

Jel is expert on acth

[Scope75]

Do you have estrogen numbers?

Interesting how fsh is higher than LH.

Depending on estrogen, I would try Exem with high E numbers or torem with normal/low numbers. To see what comes of it.

Or you can say fuck it and get on test, cause that is dirt low lol and prob won't feel that great on Serms all the time anyway. But you've cycled a decent amount of times so maybe another pct would help.

Depends what you want man. but you'll need to dial in estrogen regardless of choice so make sure you at least have one number on that before you make your next move.

Fuck bro the dbag doctor didn't test shit I asked for and I was so pissed I just wanted to smash his laptop over his head. It's like he wrote shit down but that's all he did. When I left his office last time I figured he knew I was serious and would run more test but NOPE. Then I couldn't talk him into writing me a RX for test and pins but he was game for the Androgel so I took that but depending on price and if my insurance approves it I may or may not start that because I want the real deal and less hassle than applying a gel every morning. Plus I have plenty of Test E, Serms, AIs, and all that jive to do my own TRT.
The funny thing is today he had no answers to any of my questions so I'll be seeing a specialist ASAP.
I won't start anything until I get some more numbers back and the SS crews approval.

After I get my results back from privatemdlabs I'll be doing something on my own or with the Endo depending on how long the wait is to see him or I might have to call and have me referred to another doctor.

Really you guys think I've cycled a bunch??
I've only ran 3 real cycles the first was Epi/AndroMass, next was PPs Tbol/AndroHard, then last and most recent was Epiandro/Trest. All of them had supports all the way threw and a long and heavy PCT after.
Other than that it's just been 2-3 solo runs of AndroHard and those even had legit PCTs too.
All that's been over a 4yr or longer stretch and I had Low T even before running my Very first cycle that was just AndroHard so I don't think my cycles are to blame at all.

[Scope75]

I mean megadose your vitamin d, 30k iu a day for a week should get levels up.

Get estradiol sensitive.

Jel is expert on acth
Damn 30k a day.....
I was thinking 5k a day for 2-3wks then 2-3wks at 2k then just 1k a day or is that not enough?

Would the female hormone panel for males be legit?
Then add a couple more to test my thyroid, and adrenals.

[tallstraw]

^yeah the female is just to keep costs down, you can add what you want to it.. The male panel checks a bunch more stuff though I think. After a discount code it's like 54$ I think from PMDlabs. You know why he was game for androgel right? Because that's where the kickback comes from. It isn't nearly as safe as I jectable test, the risk for transfer is high, the levels are lower, and not nearly as steady..but that's where the referral money is, hence why it's advertised on tv, not stuff like Watson ..fuckin shills man

[weekend]

okay bro i feel your pain. my dads doc wont even test anything but total test. and prescribed 300 mg in one shot every 3 weeks and got mad when he said he was going to do it weekly. trying to educate a doctor is gnarly to say the least...

your thyroid numbers are prob fine though.

2 methylated cycles plus a trest cycle means youve been fully shut down 3 times. that's a lot honestly, i think your test would be around 500 if you didnt do them. just maybe i'm way off. just i know my test levels have been about cut in half since starting AAS, which looking back might not be worth it but too late now.

15k iu a day long term keeps me in range in seattle but i'm tan. 5k does not put me in range.

when i started D in high school i think the range was around 30-80 and i was 4. (vegetarian at the time though)

- - - Updated - - -

if it were me, i would go to the doc and say "look, i have underground testosterone, i am not willing to use androgel because using this shit is going to enable me to have sex with my girl and i am not trying to have her grow a beard, prescribe me test cyp or i will be injecting this stuff, lesser of two evils"

[weekend]

i have high doubts that the adrenals will help your testosterone get above 400 ish. and another pct would prob bring it there too. long term what i expect is if you did everything right you could sustain a 600 test level for like a bit but end up back in the 350-450 range if you stopped supplementing or went through stressful times... this is what i imagine is the best case, and then serms bring it to 600-700 TOPS! but lets not forget serms are toxic... 1500 ng/dl for life with no toxicity even when your family member goes missing and you pull all nighters for example of stressful shit sounds a lot more appealing....

so much hard work you put in i see man, i'm so shitty with my diet, been eating dessert every meal and prob only like 150-200g protein a day... still relatively lean... youre gonna be amazed at what the trt dose does 6 months down the line (i'm not on anything but my test must be higher than 150 ng)

getting bloods tomorrow morning, should be interesting to compare

- - - Updated - - -

plus, in your case, TRT won't fuck you up IMO. you could come off it within a few years and have the same chance of getting a normal range T level. 10 years later maybe a diff story but still.

[Scope75]

^yeah the female is just to keep costs down, you can add what you want to it.. The male panel checks a bunch more stuff though I think. After a discount code it's like 54$ I think from PMDlabs. You know why he was game for androgel right? Because that's where the kickback comes from. It isn't nearly as safe as I jectable test, the risk for transfer is high, the levels are lower, and not nearly as steady..but that's where the referral money is, hence why it's advertised on tv, not stuff like Watson ..fuckin shills man
I just went threw pmdlabs and I could probably get everything checked out for less that 2 bills, but there's some really nice panels that cover a ton for around 150. All prices are before using a code.

Yeah I figured that's what he was all for the gel but he also said he doesn't do injections and I'd need to see another person in the office for that or go to a endo and Id rather go to a endo that knows what's up because the other doctor is the same doctor my dad uses for trt and the way they started him out was BS. 200mg every 2 weeks.:confused:
Once he told me that I had him split it up to 100mg weekly. He told the doctor about it during his next visit and she was like yeah that'll probably work better. Lol

[Scope75]

okay bro i feel your pain. my dads doc wont even test anything but total test. and prescribed 300 mg in one shot every 3 weeks and got mad when he said he was going to do it weekly. trying to educate a doctor is gnarly to say the least...

your thyroid numbers are prob fine though.

2 methylated cycles plus a trest cycle means youve been fully shut down 3 times. that's a lot honestly, i think your test would be around 500 if you didnt do them. just maybe i'm way off. just i know my test levels have been about cut in half since starting AAS, which looking back might not be worth it but too late now.

15k iu a day long term keeps me in range in seattle but i'm tan. 5k does not put me in range.

when i started D in high school i think the range was around 30-80 and i was 4. (vegetarian at the time though)

- - - Updated - - -

if it were me, i would go to the doc and say "look, i have underground testosterone, i am not willing to use androgel because using this shit is going to enable me to have sex with my girl and i am not trying to have her grow a beard, prescribe me test cyp or i will be injecting this stuff, lesser of two evils"

Sound like your dads doc went to the same school as my dads doc did.

I got the cash to test it so I might as well just to cover all my bases and ass.

Again I had Low T even before I ran anything so I wouldn't blame my cycles for this at all. What I do blame is me be a fat fuck for so long and killing myself with drugs and boose from a young age. I started drinking at 12 and snorting at 17 then got real into it from 19-25. Now I'm clean and sober and won't ever go back to drinking or snorting ever again. Complete waste of my life and money.

I did all that but tell him about the ugl test and I said there's times where I'm out in nature for 3-4 days and wouldn't be able to apply the gel after a shower and he didn't care because he doesn't ever prescribe injectable test and then I mentioned HCG and AIs and that's where he was completely clueless and I said give me the gel and a referral.

Other than getting my foot in to door of trt this has just been a waste of my time and money.

[Jelisej]

OK, few explanations- some parameters MCH/MCV could be results of some underlying problems but also (and I think its your case) it can be because low vitamin B
Vitamin D- vit vitamin d if you take lets say 5 000 IU a day or 35 000 a week its more-less same thing, only thing is practically its easier if you keep constant numbers so you can easily gauge how much to up or lower dosage, personally I would suggest 5k a day or 3500 a week and then you take it from there, for a reason I said before- it will be easier to decide which dosage is right, and it may be higher than that. So, weekend with his suggestion is probably right- its ust I find it easier to gradually increase dosage, till you get constant- and target is to get to upper limit.

As for adrenals and thyroid as well- they dont increase test levels- they are needed to "use it" more effectively it is not just testosterone ists the balance of the hormones that make real difference

In your case HCG is needed as it works and HCG bring a lot of other hormones and benefits as well, AI you need at hand as well, you will not need so much of it as your SHBG is high

Pregnenolone is something that comes handy and is good addition

As for test dosing- my rough estimate would be 110 mg a week to bring you to decent levels, maybe bit more, my favourite is 3X a week test e, cypionate is not much different than e, bit longer half life, thats all so thats ok as well, test prop half life is too short- to many injections

[Scope75]

i have high doubts that the adrenals will help your testosterone get above 400 ish. and another pct would prob bring it there too. long term what i expect is if you did everything right you could sustain a 600 test level for like a bit but end up back in the 350-450 range if you stopped supplementing or went through stressful times... this is what i imagine is the best case, and then serms bring it to 600-700 TOPS! but lets not forget serms are toxic... 1500 ng/dl for life with no toxicity even when your family member goes missing and you pull all nighters for example of stressful shit sounds a lot more appealing....

so much hard work you put in i see man, i'm so shitty with my diet, been eating dessert every meal and prob only like 150-200g protein a day... still relatively lean... youre gonna be amazed at what the trt dose does 6 months down the line (i'm not on anything but my test must be higher than 150 ng)

getting bloods tomorrow morning, should be interesting to compare

- - - Updated - - -

plus, in your case, TRT won't fuck you up IMO. you could come off it within a few years and have the same chance of getting a normal range T level. 10 years later maybe a diff story but still.

Completely agree with you.

I only want to test everything Jelisej has mentioned because he knows his shit and if it'll help him help me I'm all for it.
After thinking about it I don't cate about the cost because I've blown more money on dumb shit than I can even count so skimping out on something to save a few bucks is just stupid for me to do especially since I have my life together now. Just need to get my mind, body and soul running on all cylinders.

[Scope75]

OK, few explanations- some parameters MCH/MCV could be results of some underlying problems but also (and I think its your case) it can be because low vitamin B
Vitamin D- vit vitamin d if you take lets say 5 000 IU a day or 35 000 a week its more-less same thing, only thing is practically its easier if you keep constant numbers so you can easily gauge how much to up or lower dosage, personally I would suggest 5k a day or 3500 a week and then you take it from there, for a reason I said before- it will be easier to decide which dosage is right, and it may be higher than that. So, weekend with his suggestion is probably right- its ust I find it easier to gradually increase dosage, till you get constant- and target is to get to upper limit.

As for adrenals and thyroid as well- they dont increase test levels- they are needed to "use it" more effectively it is not just testosterone ists the balance of the hormones that make real difference

In your case HCG is needed as it works and HCG bring a lot of other hormones and benefits as well, AI you need at hand as well, you will not need so much of it as your SHBG is high

Pregnenolone is something that comes handy and is good addition

As for test dosing- my rough estimate would be 110 mg a week to bring you to decent levels, maybe bit more, my favourite is 3X a week test e, cypionate is not much different than e, bit longer half life, thats all so thats ok as well, test prop half life is too short- to many injections

Vit B was is over the mid range and I have injectable b12 just not sure how to dose it or how frequent.

I'll start on 5k vit d daily because I feel 35-50k in one dose would be more wasteful over smaller more frequent doses.

Exactly and why I feel I should have both my adrenals and thyroid tested.

Have HCG on hand and won't start the gel or pins without. Also have multiple AI's and serms on hand.

Don't have any pregnenolone but do have a few tubes of Dermacrine and that has some in it. Only 18mgs thou.

I only have UGL Test E but I'm sure the endo will give me Test C but ill ask for E since that's what I have and will use sometime down the road.
I know there's not much difference but I like to keep things consistant. Either way it'll be better than the gel.
3x a week?
I was thinking 120-150 split. 1 on Monday other on Thursday. That way my week and weekend are all be started off will a shot.
I just want to end up sitting around the upper range for test.

[Jelisej]

Ok, HCG goes 3X a week, on cycle standard is 250 IU on HRT you can do less, but still I would go with 250 IU mon-wed-fri, and as you have to pin it 3 X its more simple to follow with test injection, otherwise you'll be injecting most of the days in a week.

for a starter I would go with 120 mg no more than that, as your body may not be able to cope with more

why adrenals and thyroid are important? if you want ot have top of range test. you'll need those two to be top of range, now to explain exactly why it would take me very long time, and I simply dont have it- you can find some previous posts, even that link from other guys TRT I posted earlier has a bit info on it

test e and cyp are not that much different and switching from one to another at some point should not be a problem

dermacrine is ok, would still add bit more preg. you can buy some oral tablets 50mg quite cheap and should work

as for vitamin d- wheter you'll take higher doses weekly or less daily is not a big deal, its just that its easier to find right dosage with consistent dosing

[weekend]

Just get cyp. It's more stable in solution and enanthate is more expensive and rarely RXed in the usa. Cyp is less painful often as well.

And I would run it like 50 or 60 mg mwf

Heavy drinking is murder on the hpta, so there's your answer most likely

You got an appointment really soon?

[lt1head]

^yeah the female is just to keep costs down, you can add what you want to it.. The male panel checks a bunch more stuff though I think. After a discount code it's like 54$ I think from PMDlabs. You know why he was game for androgel right? Because that's where the kickback comes from. It isn't nearly as safe as I jectable test, the risk for transfer is high, the levels are lower, and not nearly as steady..but that's where the referral money is, hence why it's advertised on tv, not stuff like Watson ..fuckin shills man

fuck all the money in medicine man, its some shameful shit!!!

[Scope75]

I was looking at prices on a app and noticed it's cheaper and it's what he'll give me anyways.

I hit the booze hard and at the end my body was just shutting down on me.

If I don't hear from them tomorrow I'll call them Wednesday. The doctor told me he's the best in the area and he's busy so it could be a while if its to long I'll go to a new to the area female endo or and be added to the cancellation list for the other one so whoever can see me quickest.

[lt1head]

Pregnenolone has made a world of difference on my overall feeling of well being, i would definitley recommend getting some. micronized preg is the way to go, dont remember why though.

Given your past E issues i would suggest low dose exem to start out, you could probably tell if it's too low anyways.

Also, I would order the tests on your own, and immediately start afterwords. There's nothing new you could find out at this point to change your mind about trt, so might as well start feeling better as soon as possible rather than wait for more confirmation of whats already known. But at the same time do all the testing because ya gotta make sure you cover everything. IMHO anyways :D

GL bro

[Scope75]

Here's some test I looked into.

Adrenocorticotropic Hormone (ACTH) Testing - Private MD (http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lp/Adrenocorticotropic_Hormone_ACTH.php)

Private MD - Buy Lab Tests Online (http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tests.php?view=all&show=1032&category=14&search=#1032)

Private MD - Buy Lab Tests Online (http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tests.php?view=all&show=1250&category=11&search=#1250)

All that's 172.00 and fine with me just need to know if that covers my bases.

As soon as I get the results I'll probably start trt with what I have on hand. Only thing is will the endo trip out if I go in there telling him I'm pinning test, HCG and taking a AI that's all ugl or just hold off and wait?
Would hate to start off on the wrong foot right off the bat.

It all depends on how quick I can be seen too. If it's next week I'll wait if it's a month I don't want to wait and keep feeling the way I am.

[weekend]

If it's a week don't start

If it's a month start and then stop! Lol

Or take the honesty route

[Jelisej]

I would wait for a month and explain to endo things and if needed clearly say that youre starting HRT with or without, in meantime you can start preparing your body with vitamin d and rest of stuff, I think its even better option than starting HRT straight away as you're in bad shape, your body is depleted of lot of stuff- better work on your basics, your lifestyle is still not good- at this point you're heading for a heart attack,


starting and than stopping testosterone e/or cyp in month is not good idea IMO as by the time it gets to decent level you'll have to stop it,
again you need some other results if you're adrenals are not working/getting signals to work you may end up in ER,


also dont forget its still possible that you may have some other problems,

[Scope75]

If it's a week don't start

If it's a month start and then stop! Lol

Or take the honesty route


Fuck what's another month when I've had low t for years but just really started feeling like shit within the last year.

Can't wait to get things going in the right directions makeing some FUCKING GAINZ!!!!!!

[Scope75]

I would wait for a month and explain to endo things and if needed clearly say that youre starting HRT with or without, in meantime you can start preparing your body with vitamin d and rest of stuff, I think its even better option than starting HRT straight away as you're in bad shape, your body is depleted of lot of stuff- better work on your basics, your lifestyle is still not good- at this point you're heading for a heart attack,


starting and than stopping testosterone e/or cyp in month is not good idea IMO as by the time it gets to decent level you'll have to stop it,
again you need some other results if you're adrenals are not working/getting signals to work you may end up in ER,


also dont forget its still possible that you may have some other problems,
Dosed vitD and others tonight and will daily from here on out.
Worst case senecio I'll just use the gels and source my own test e.

What's wrong with my lifestyle?? Or what should I work on?

Also are the test I posted above what's needed??

[weekend]

I think jel doesn't like the amount of bacon you eat and the sugar binges lol

In reality, you're gonna have a whole new metabolism on test. Your health will be better served with a lot more salad and fruit haha

[lt1head]

maybe just take in your bloods you do on your own, explain that you started your androgel scrip but want to switch. that way everything will be legit and you wouldnt have to come off. also keep your current dr's bloodwork.

[lt1head]

Here's some test I looked into.

Adrenocorticotropic Hormone (ACTH) Testing - Private MD (http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lp/Adrenocorticotropic_Hormone_ACTH.php)

Private MD - Buy Lab Tests Online (http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tests.php?view=all&show=1032&category=14&search=#1032)

Private MD - Buy Lab Tests Online (http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tests.php?view=all&show=1250&category=11&search=#1250)

All that's 172.00 and fine with me just need to know if that covers my bases.

As soon as I get the results I'll probably start trt with what I have on hand. Only thing is will the endo trip out if I go in there telling him I'm pinning test, HCG and taking a AI that's all ugl or just hold off and wait?
Would hate to start off on the wrong foot right off the bat.

It all depends on how quick I can be seen too. If it's next week I'll wait if it's a month I don't want to wait and keep feeling the way I am.

at a glance i dont see prolactin, shgb, dht or progesterone.

[Scope75]

SHBG has already been tested and are those others really needed?

I'd guess DHT is low since I don't make any test.
I'm not lactating so prolactin is probably ok.
Also never read anything about having progesterone tested before or during trt.

[Scope75]

Thinking about just ordering the 3 test I have listed to get the ball rolling and to answer some more questions.
I'm sure once at the endo he/she will want to run there own bloods too so not sure if it needed since I plan to just wait before starting up anything as long as it's a 4wk or less wait.

[Scope75]

I think jel doesn't like the amount of bacon you eat and the sugar binges lol

In reality, you're gonna have a whole new metabolism on test. Your health will be better served with a lot more salad and fruit haha

Haven't ate bacon or butter in a while but my fats are still high from coconut oil and MCT oil. Sugar has been cut out big time and I'm no longer eating boxes of cereal and loads of candy and all that was still just 1 night a week and not a daily deal. I eat tons of veggies and when I'm inna salad kick I eat massive amounts of salad and mixed veggies.

Really looking forward to seeing how test will effect my body and mental well being. I'd be happier with just being happy again and the rest will just be icing on the cake... Wait I mean dressing on a salad. Lol

[Jelisej]

What I ment is that I've got a feeling that you are boozing a bit or something, and your sleep is probably problem. There must be something you doing wrong.

With test- remember that ACTH test and ACTH Stimulation is not same thing, and we need ACTH stimulation to see possible cause of problem (if there is one)
also I would do 4X cortisol test as your circadian rhythm is most likely off, salivary is good
optionally you can add progesterone which I find helpful, and optionally DHEA(s) together they will show how your (adrenal) hormones metabolise, I would check fT3 and fT4 again, and TSH- altough your thyroid seems to be capable coping, as last result was not that bad, tough we still dont know what fT3 is like, and fT3e is the one that does most of the work.

Also ferritin would come handy to see, I've got a feeling its low. Al other tests IMO are now not needed as we know that HRT is the way, and as you go along you will have to do blood test and adjust protocol.

This thread should give you some insight:
Blood work, can someone take a look at it please (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/2173-blood-work-can-someone-take-look-please.html)

[Scope75]

What I ment is that I've got a feeling that you are boozing a bit or something, and your sleep is probably problem. There must be something you doing wrong.

With test- remember that ACTH test and ACTH Stimulation is not same thing, and we need ACTH stimulation to see possible cause of problem (if there is one)
also I would do 4X cortisol test as your circadian rhythm is most likely off, salivary is good
optionally you can add progesterone which I find helpful, and optionally DHEA(s) together they will show how your (adrenal) hormones metabolise, I would check fT3 and fT4 again, and TSH- altough your thyroid seems to be capable coping, as last result was not that bad, tough we still dont know what fT3 is like, and fT3e is the one that does most of the work.

Also ferritin would come handy to see, I've got a feeling its low. Al other tests IMO are now not needed as we know that HRT is the way, and as you go along you will have to do blood test and adjust protocol.

This thread should give you some insight:
Blood work, can someone take a look at it please (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/2173-blood-work-can-someone-take-look-please.html)


Haven't had a drink in years and have no plan of ever drinking again. I don't abuse or use any drugs. I quit smoking weed.
I use to do lots wrong and I feel I'm paying for it now but as of today I'm living and treating myself/body better than I ever have and that just makes all of this suck even more. I dump lots of time and effort into bettering myself but with how shitty my body is running it just doesn't show like it should.


My day goes exactly just like this.

Wake up
Light cardio and/or lifting
Shower
Eat
Work 8-10hrs
Workout with heavier weights and cardio to warm up
Eat
Sleep 6+ hours

I don't see anything wrong with that at all and that's how I've been living for awhile now.

Sleeps been slowly improving and I can feel it's making a nice difference in my energy levels and mood. Haven't had a 1-2pm crash in a bit like I was everyday for months.

I only have carbs 1 night a week and drink nothing but water because I'm to lazy to make tea.

With all of that needed to be tested I think I'll just save my money and wait to see what the endo wants to do and if he/she will be willing to test all that form me because I won't start anything now until I'm under the supervision of a doctor. Don't want to start off on the wrong foot with the endo so I'll just suck it up and wait it out.

[Jelisej]

Ok, continue good work, you need to have a minimum 7.5 hrs a sleep, anything under is harmful, 8-9 hrs is target. Obviously in your situation sleep is not expected to be good, but slowly it will improve.

Yeah, waiting to see what endo says is good idea, I know waiting is horrible but you've suffer for a long time you can survive for a month, and also that period will come handy to add minerals and other stuff to your body as once your HRT/TRT starts demand for it will be increased.

[Scope75]

Yeah I'm slowly getting better and more sleep the goal is to get 8-10 by going to bed at 9pm and waking up from 5-7am.

Took my vitD this morning and will take the minerals this evening prebed.

I'll be jumping on your selinium, iodine, and etc lay out you've posted before this evening too.

I can handle the wait and like you've said its probably a good thing so I can get very depleted body some much needed vitamins and minerals in it before starting anything.

Just very eager to get to feeling better and that sometimes makes me want to jump head first into things but with a little time and thinking I realize that's not the right way attitude to have.
I'll be taking it one day at a time and calling today to set up a appointment or be referred to someone who can see me quicker of its a long wait or it waits In between visits will be to long. I want to be able to see my endo within weeks not months.

[weekend]

I like the idea of using test now and claiming it's the androgel to the endo. You're def gonna need trt so testing all those things might actually be more useful once you have some test in you. Just the way I see it

[weekend]

You can even start with 50 mg a week or so, then when you do get appointment stop using. A week long trough with 50 mg will have you low anyway. You can say you don't feel different etc and concerns about gel transfer. Then endo will be on board right away

[Scope75]

Well my first referral is booked until June... lol
Hung up quick and had another referral sent to another endo.
Fingers crossed ill get an appointment in January if not I'll just have to have another referral sent out.

[Scope75]

Here's the supps I've started taking.
http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/051FB184-47CF-47C0-8C29-9AF5E5EC9582_zpskhswgeeq.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/051FB184-47CF-47C0-8C29-9AF5E5EC9582_zpskhswgeeq.jpg.html)

Only thing I'm unsure about in the iodine drops and how many drops to take. Each drop is drop is about 2.5 mg's of iodine/potassium iodide (1 mg iodine, 1.5 mg potassium iodide) and I took 2 drops.
Is that enough or should I bump it up to 4-6?

[Scope75]

W
Here's the supps I've started taking.
http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/051FB184-47CF-47C0-8C29-9AF5E5EC9582_zpskhswgeeq.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/051FB184-47CF-47C0-8C29-9AF5E5EC9582_zpskhswgeeq.jpg.html)

Only thing I'm unsure about in the iodine drops and how many drops to take. Each drop is drop is about 2.5 mg's of iodine/potassium iodide (1 mg iodine, 1.5 mg potassium iodide) and I took 2 drops.
Is that enough or should I bump it up to 4-6?

Ever since I took the stack above I can't stop talking and I've just want to tell everyone all my old drinking and partying stories. It's like the supps opened up my mind and I'm able to recall all my past memories. I've completely forgot about my past since I stopped drinking.
I don't know how to explain it but it's the strangest feeling ever now that I realize what's going on.

More to come.

- - - Updated - - -

It's the L-Tyrosine......

[Scope75]

Gonna take some l-tryptophan to chill out.

Gues that stack and my preWO got me on a good one.
Haven't felt like this in years.

[Scope75]

Now that I've for some reason remindered my past all this is probably due to me being a black out drunk from a early age and something in me just made me forget it since I quite drinking. I've completely buried my past and today it all came back. Alcohol has to be the #1 factor in my conditions. I was a HEAVY drinker from 13-26 but only on the weekends.

[Scope75]

Well, iodine, mag, zinc, selenium are needed for proper functioning of thyroid but I dont think they have significant effect on hormones, you may continue to take them except for night before blood draw. For L-tyrosine not quite sure, its precursor to some nuerotransmitters but it has tendency to convert different from person to person, and also it may have an influence on hormones but not sure how much, maybe to stop taking it earlier for any case.

I was wondering if l-tyrosine has an impact on your mood? for some it has no effect, for some it has beneficial effect, but for some it can cause agitation etc...

Hit it on the head.....

So what's making me or how's it making me feel so good?
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jelisej again.

[Scope75]

Well my endo appointment is either the 22 or 26 of this month. They are sending me a packet to fill out and I asked to be put on the cancellation list.

Not gonna even mess with the gel or anything but should I still get the gel just to have?? That's if my insurance covers it and knocks the price down to under 50.

[tallstraw]

If they cover it..I mean why not, in a pinch atleast you'd be covered..

[Scope75]

Guy at the pharmacy says it runs from 15-50.
Guess use it on the sack for a nice DHT boost.

[tallstraw]

I was thinking more so if your street corner pharmacist runs out or gets their shop closed

[Jelisej]

Well my endo appointment is either the 22 or 26 of this month. They are sending me a packet to fill out and I asked to be put on the cancellation list.
Not gonna even mess with the gel or anything but should I still get the gel just to have?? That's if my insurance covers it and knocks the price down to under 50.

Well, use whatever endo prescribes , test injections are preferable but if you get gel you can use it for time being, it may work well for you.

BTW- with l tyrosine- it is precursor to many neurotransmitters, usually most of it goes to either dopamine or norepinephrine in first scenario usually people feel imprvement in mood second often they feel agitation, anger. It can be converted to many others- and thing "normal" people dont feel that much difference but people who are under stress or who are sad or have very low hormone levels feel lot more effect,

Also I think other minerals/vitamines were benefitial to you, and you are now pawing way for better future.

[Scope75]

I was thinking more so if your street corner pharmacist runs out or gets their shop closed
Bro is CVS closes I'll just switch PHARMACIES. Lol

[tallstraw]

Haha

[lt1head]

Maybe try using doctor finder or something similar... If you don't know any good available ones google is your best friend.

Pretty sure test e/c whatever is not a good thing to be caught with without perscription, depending on your state.

As far as keeping gel for a DHT boost, it'd probably just throw a wrench in whatever balance you do achieve. mt2 tada or sild are great bandages! :D

[BBG]

Scope you could give higher dosed taurine a try... I just happen to be reading a lot about taurine lately. Apparently it can boost testosterone levels, at least in animal models.

Taurine for more testosterone (http://www.ergo-log.com/taurine-for-more-testosterone.html)
Taurine doubles T level: animal study (http://www.ergo-log.com/taurinetestosterone.html)

[Scope75]

Even if it boosted my levels 100% I'd still have Low T.....

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/479A2291-BDAB-4700-AFC2-96742E712845_zpsdacpvve4.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/479A2291-BDAB-4700-AFC2-96742E712845_zpsdacpvve4.jpg.html)

[Scope75]

Man I've been on Supps for 2-3 weeks and I'm feeling better than ever and still no T Gel or Injections.

10 days away from my Endo appointment and I'm really interested in finding out how I'll feel once I'm on some sort of Test.

[Jelisej]

Glad to hear that you feeling better, and you deserve lot of credit and respect for your efforts, not rushing things and thinking rationally.

[Scope75]

Glad to hear that you feeling better, and you deserve lot of credit and respect for your efforts, not rushing things and thinking rationally.

Thank you....

Without yours and others help and support who knows what path I would've went down. This fourm is the best for asking questions and getting quality answers and recommendations. Truely thankful for it all.

The stack of supps making me feel so good are right from you so THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!
All your time and knowledge is appreciated.

[somm]

When are you going to start taking Epic Gainz, or have you already?

[Scope75]

Unsure.....

7.5 days untily Endo appointment.

Have all my paper work filled out and in my truck so I'm more than ready and can't forget anything.

[Scope75]

Well today is the day.....

Appointment is at 11am and I'm more than ready to get things moving in some sort or direction.

Just hope she's sharp and on top of things because I'm tired of waiting and being jerked around.

[weekend]

You got this buddy. Don't take no for an answer.

[Scope75]

Sitting in a room right now waiting for the doctor.
Brought all my supps in so she knows I'm more than ready/willing to get things rolling in the right direction.

[Scope75]

Well the ball is rolling and I will finally be getting the bloods that are needed to see what's up.

Appointment for bloodwork is tomorrow at 7:45 and I go back to see my endo on 2/9.

[Scope75]

Here's the list of what bloodwork is being done. FINALLY

ACTH
Complete CBC, automated (Hgb, Hct, RBC, WBC, and platelet count)
CMP (Albumin, Bilirumin, CO2, CI, Creatinine, Glu, Alkaline Phosphates)
Cortisol, Total
Estradiol
Ferritin
Free T4
FSH
HGH
IGF-1
LH
Progesterone
Prolactin
Serum Iron
SHGB
Test, free
Test, total
TSH
TICB

[tallstraw]

You getting the full male panel done? How much did that cost you?

[Scope75]

Just getting whatever my endo requested.

Think I'll run me around 200-250 with insurance. Lots of expensive test so not to bad.

[tallstraw]

Fuuuuck...that much WITH insurance?

[weekend]

Damn that's some slow ass shit. Good to get all those bloods though. I think you're getting your script this time bud

[Scope75]

Fuuuuck...that much WITH insurance?
Price out all 19 tests and get back to me. Lol

Even the guy pulling the bloods told me I have a bunch of expensive tests being done.

Plus price doesn't matter because this is my life/health on the line.

[Scope75]

Damn that's some slow ass shit. Good to get all those bloods though. I think you're getting your script this time bud

2 weeks from appointment to appointment isn't much wait and the bloods being done take 7-10 days to process so 2 weeks is about as quick as I could get back in there.

Yeah super stoked finally get some good bloods drawn so we can all see the big picture instead of guessing.

Don't mind the wait anymore but really can't wait/excited to see what's what and how this will all turn out.

[tallstraw]

..I wasn't criticizing the decision I was just remarking.

[weekend]

with test levels that low i would have a way worse attitude. you're the man and once you get all fixed up you're gonna be feeling awesome...

your girlfriend is in for a surprise lol

[Scope75]

..I wasn't criticizing the decision I was just remarking.

I got what you meant and 200-250 is still a grip with insurance but think about the cost without is what inwas getting at.
Say every test cost 50 I'd be spending close to 1000 bucks.

[Scope75]

with test levels that low i would have a way worse attitude. you're the man and once you get all fixed up you're gonna be feeling awesome...

your girlfriend is in for a surprise lol
A bad attitude won't make anything better or quicker so I'm just going with the flow and will take it a day at a time.

With that said I cant FUCKING wait to feel better and get things moving in the right direction.

That's the one thing I've always maintained fairly good erection quality but who knows with low levels for so long I might be surprised at what happens too.

[Jelisej]

Price out all 19 tests and get back to me. Lol
Even the guy pulling the bloods told me I have a bunch of expensive tests being done.
Plus price doesn't matter because this is my life/health on the line.

I agree 100%,
and you'll get you money back with dividends,

and having this extensive blood test is going to speed up treatment big time, and you will know exactly where you stand- so basically number of tests needed in future will be reduced,

As for feeling better- over the time improvement will be significant- which will lead to improvements in all other areas of life including social etc,
at this point your neurotransmitters are depleted and when they are replenished you will find yourself being different person altogether, you will laugh at doctors nonsense about being "bipolar"

Another thing I would suggest you is to read this a bit: CBT Self Help - Step 3 (http://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/cbtstep3.htm)
Combination of metal self-improvement with TRT will make miracles happen.


BTW- As soon as your blood is done start with dermacrine, or pregenolone, whatever you have- at modest dose.

[Scope75]

Yeah I sure hope I don't have to run more and more bloods but whatever it takes I'll be doing it.
Money really isn't an issue so that's not a problem I just hate having to drive to the damn clinics in the morning messing up my work day but that's also not much of an issue since I work for myself. Guess I just need something to complain about. Lol

Just with the supps I've been taking I feel so much better but I still crash weekly and have a few down days. Usually Wednesday or Thursday then I rest and I'm good for a week. I'm also way more social and I've been finding myself talking to strangers and helping them find things in stores or just shooting the shit about what meats are the best but cheap. Just this past Sunday inhelped 1 person out in Walmart then 3 others in Costco. I've never done that before.

Thanks for the link.
I'll for sures read that and the rest of the steps too.

I went in and had my blood drawn this morning so I'm game/ready to start up Dermacrine tomorrow morning.
With the bloodwork that was done today do you think there's no chance I'll need to do anymore and is that why your telling me to start up something now?
What modest dose do you recomended since Dermacrine only has 18mg pregenolone per 5 pumps.
What I have is also PPs OG cream/lotion and maybe 1 tube of the gel but that might be SA.

Thanks again for all your help and insight.

[Jelisej]

It would be good to get some extra pregnenolone and then combine preg and dermacrine as dermacrine has a lot of DHEA but not enough preg.

I dont think you'll need extra bloods, but even if you do modest dose of dermacrine would not skew them a lot as it wold be only short time you're running as well , and most of difference would be seen in adrenal hormones, and in E2 somewhat (but you have previous bloods to comapare) changes in testosterone would be insignificant

so start with 3-4 pumps in morning, and once you get pregnenolone you can add that- preg with bit DHEA will ensure your adrenals dont crash (if they are in bad shape) it will relive some of your symptoms, plus lot of other benefits

You can mention that to endo, I dont think he should object to supplementing preg.

[Scope75]

Ok, I'll do 4 pumps in the AM starting tomorrow.

Once I get some pregenolone how much of it and how much dermecrine?

I won't mention it to HER as she wasn't to stoked to see all the supps I've been taking and told me to drop them all but the Vit D3.
I didn't take anything today since I had bloods this morning but it'll all be took tomorrow morning.

[weekend]

Yeah I would never bring in a ton of supps to a doctor, it appears like addictive behavior to them

[Scope75]

Yeah I would never bring in a ton of supps to a doctor, it appears like addictive behavior to them

Her mind was blown and kept telling me why do I take these and so many when I'm only 29. Lol
My only answer was they make me feel better and get me threw the day without me crashing.
She was also pretty shocked at how low my Test is for my age.

You should've heard all the different ways she asked if I'd ever done steroids without actually asking me straight up. And her being asian with a asian accent kinda makes things funny but at the sametime she really explains herself well, asked me tons of questions, and answered all questions I had.

The one thing I don't get is none of my doctors really seem to care that I've been severely overweight, or ask me about my past with drugs or alcohol.

[weekend]

Hopefully you told her about the weight and alcohol

[Jelisej]

Ok, I'll do 4 pumps in the AM starting tomorrow.

Once I get some pregenolone how much of it and how much dermecrine?

I won't mention it to HER as she wasn't to stoked to see all the supps I've been taking and told me to drop them all but the Vit D3.
I didn't take anything today since I had bloods this morning but it'll all be took tomorrow morning.

Take 50mg of pregneolone and 2 pumps of dermacrine, later on you can add or reduce dosage.

[Scope75]

Hopefully you told her about the weight and alcohol

Mentioned both but it seems like it just goes right over there heads and no further questions are asked. Also mentioned cracking my head open at 5 and playing football for 5yrs along with some car accidents, and other cramp that's happened to me. She seemed more interested in that than my weight and booze/drug issues.

[Scope75]

Take 50mg of pregneolone and 2 pumps of dermacrine, later on you can add or reduce dosage.

Ok
I'll start searching Google now for pregnenolone.

Or do you have a link to a good place/source to pick some up from?

[Jelisej]

Ok
I'll start searching Google now for pregnenolone.

Or do you have a link to a good place/source to pick some up from?

Its sold OTC so you should be able to find it easy, micronised supposed to be better- personally I did not notice difference, I just buy ordinary and its dirt cheap.

[Scope75]

Its sold OTC so you should be able to find it easy, micronised supposed to be better- personally I did not notice difference, I just buy ordinary and its dirt cheap.

It's I buy everything I can online. Screw California and all there TAXES. lol
But yeah I hate paying taxes so these would be good.
High Strength Pregnenolone 50 mg 50 mg 90 Capsules 4011 | Pregnenolone | Piping Rock Health Products (http://m.pipingrock.com/pregnenolone/high-strength-pregnenolone-50-mg-4011?prd=D0000J&CAWELAID=1934925524&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=600007550000017033&cadevice=m&gclid=CLKqgZfdtcMCFdGCfgodZU0AUg)

That site has killer deals, quick and affordable shipping or free if you spend 40.

[entropy]

Its sold OTC so you should be able to find it easy, micronised supposed to be better- personally I did not notice difference, I just buy ordinary and its dirt cheap.

Aren't hormone particles already measured in the microns anyway? Also Jel, is there any advantage to transdermal preg vs pills?

[Scope75]

Looks like theres also sublingual pregnenolone too.

[entropy]

Iirc preg is a neurosteroid and precursor to all of the other hormones. I'm just going by what I know about the human body, but I would assume that oral preg gets converted to whatever the liver feels like metabolising it into whereas sublingual/transdermal preg would spend more time floating around in its base form in serum before it ends up being converted in the liver to whatever the liver feels like converting it into.

[Jelisej]

Aren't hormone particles already measured in the microns anyway? Also Jel, is there any advantage to transdermal preg vs pills?

There are some advantages, like better absorption and somewhat slower release, lot of guys do bit better on topical - but there are not many transdermals/creams on market and they are all expensive as well. And usually oral works fine.





Very interesting post by Raymond Peat, MA, PhD (Univ. of Oregon)(tough I think its not entirely correct):
"Pregnenolone is largely converted into two other "youth-associated" protective hormones, progesterone and DHEA. At the age of 30, both men and women produce roughly 30 to 50 mg. of pregnenolone daily. When taken orally, even in the powdered form, it is absorbed fairly well. One dose of approximately 300 mg (the size of an aspirin tablet) keeps acting for about a week, as absorption continues along the intestine, and as it is "recycled" in the body. Part of this long lasting effect is because it improves the body's ability to produce its own pregnenolone. It tends to improve function of the thyroid and other glands, and this "normalizing" effect on the other glands helps to account for its wide range of beneficial effects."

[Scope75]

Pregnenolone is ordered.

Applied 4 pumps of dermecrine all over my chest, shoulders, and traps yesterday morning.

Should I apply 1 pump to the balls?

[weekend]

Yes but not every day cause eventually I get rashy

[Spank]

Amazon.com: Life Extension Pregnenolone 100 Mg Capsule, 100-Count: Health & Personal Care (http://www.amazon.com/Life-Extension-Pregnenolone-Capsule-100-Count/dp/B000JKR6FI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422546951&sr=8-1&keywords=pregnenolone)

This is even cheaper than the other link you posted, free shipping with prime also or if you buy 2 you get free shipping.

That's a really interesting read, Jelisej

Any insight as to what you think is incorrect or maybe overstated?

[Scope75]

That link was just for reference and this is what I bought.
High Strength Pregnenolone 50 mg 50 mg 180 Capsules 4012 | Pregnenolone | Piping Rock Health Products (http://m.pipingrock.com/pregnenolone/high-strength-pregnenolone-50-mg-4012)

Your link is 100mg caps and Jel said to take 50mg so that wouldn't work for me either.

- - - Updated - - -


Yes but not every day cause eventually I get rashy
I'll just hold off them.
Don't like itchy balls.

[weekend]

Did you get blood results yet?

[Scope75]

It's only been 1.5 days since they drained me if 10 vials of blood so it'll be next week before anyone would even know and my next appointment is 2/9 so 10-11 days to go.

Started all my supps back up along with 4 pumps of dermacrine to hold me over until then. I'll start pregnenolone as soon as it arrives.

[weekend]

what a coincidence. i have an appointment on 2/9 :cool:

[Jelisej]

Pregnenolone is ordered.
Applied 4 pumps of dermecrine all over my chest, shoulders, and traps yesterday morning.
Should I apply 1 pump to the balls?

No need to apply DHEA/Preg to testicles as in reality conversion difference with DHEA/Preg is insignificant, with testosterone gel is a big difference
in any case testosterone will be increased soon, so should DHT as well- if unhappy with DHT levels that will be addressed separately.

In any case target here is pregnenolone itself+DHEA adn other adrenal hormones which than has cascading effect on whole endocrine system and more than that.
These days lot of endocrinologists do not test pregenolone (or its metabolites) when starting people on TRT for one reason- its always low.

[Jelisej]

That's a really interesting read, Jelisej
Any insight as to what you think is incorrect or maybe overstated?

Taking 300 mg once weekly simply does not work well in practice as it would create spike in preg and other stuff, probably lot of would convert to progesterone which is not always good idea.

Also not sure if it "improves the body's ability to produce its own pregnenolone", tough sometimes eople who supplemented with it after some time need less of it to maintan decent levels.

[Scope75]

Man been having some killer workouts lately.
My mind and thoughts are much clearer and I'm able to focus on the tasks/goals I've made/set for myself.
I'm also getting comfortable with wanting to start adding more and more weight to the bar but in a smart/programmed way. Nothing like I use to do by just jumping right into my old weights because that just makes me stall out quick.

Still letting the 531 app pick my weights but I do my own set and rep layout. So far so good.

Have another endo appointment on 2/9/15 and I'm hoping that will be the appointment where my endo and I talk about my treatment options.
Had a crazy amount of bloodwork done this week so I'm curious to see exactly what are all my problems other than just Low T.

[Scope75]

Since adding in Dermacrine I've only felt better and better.
My body feels more active at rest and my mind/attitude has also improved and I'm constantly sparking up convos with random people all over the place.
It feels so DAMN GOOD to feel like I'm heading down the right path and its leading straight to how I use to feel and act but even better. I say better than ever because I'm already more social than I've ever been and if I was single I'd be wanting to go out and SLAY some PUSSY but I'm not a cheater.

Speaking of PUSSY.....
I FUCKING put the SMASH down on my GF twice this past Sunday.
Was some of the better sex I've had and my drive and focus was off the hook and left my GF just shaking and trembling until she came twice then I came and damn it was a BIG THICK load. Halftime rolled around and I put the smash down again and the outcome was the same.

[Scope75]

Today is the BIG DAY....
To say I'm a little anxious would be an understatement.
Not gonna get my hopes up because you never know what's going to happen and I don't want to get down about things if it doesn't go as expected.
Feeling better than ever anyways so I'm happy about that.

[weekend]

You got this. Don't take no for an answer. Have you used test before?

[Scope75]

Sitting in a waiting room now.

No I've never used test.

[Haritec]

Good luck man ! Hope the endo listens and gives you all you want !

[Scope75]

Went GREAT!!!!!

200mg every 2 weeks.... Lol
I'll split it up and do multiple injections.

[weekend]

Fuck yeah!

Make sure you're low on your next bloodwork. 100 mg 10 days before the test should put you low.

[tallstraw]

Awesome! Good for you!

[Scope75]

Now where to inject???
Have a few options pins.
5/8ths 1-1.5 inch 25g and slins

[weekend]

Quads are my favorite spot. I mainly use delt quad ventro glute.

I think 5/8 27g is the best, but .5 inch slins are a close second. With the shorter needles make sure to simple the skin (push the needle deep so you basically make a crater shape in the skin)

- - - Updated - - -

But the 1ml barrel is required for the 27g to be fun. If you have 5/8" 25s they are useable with the 3ml barrel but still very slow compared to a 28g slin

[nate3993]

quad. i use the 5/8 25's and its super smooth. super fast. just gotta get the angle right!

[weekend]

But Nate you're using a 1 ml barrel right?

[Scope75]

Done deal....

5/8ths 25g pin, 1ml 200mg right into the quad and it went fine.
Took forever to draw with a 25g so ill be asking for a lager size for that.

Probably try delts next.
Thinking of doing another .5/100mg Thursday or Friday then 100 a week after that.

How's that plan sound?

Follow up bloods are 10-11wks out and next appointment is in May.

I'll upload some pics of my bloods in a few.

[Scope75]

Here's my bloodwork results

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/7F139A35-48E9-46FE-9388-0E47111DF8EE_zpsa3dlouxo.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/7F139A35-48E9-46FE-9388-0E47111DF8EE_zpsa3dlouxo.jpg.html)

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/17164691-6628-444F-92C0-8E90D66C3FE2_zpsrec1deuj.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/17164691-6628-444F-92C0-8E90D66C3FE2_zpsrec1deuj.jpg.html)

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/9D842FA9-33C2-41E4-BC63-1B8640FFF64D_zps9baxa56y.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/9D842FA9-33C2-41E4-BC63-1B8640FFF64D_zps9baxa56y.jpg.html)

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/E84B2EF7-F6D1-4210-BF12-76D0FC32D9DB_zpslx5paq1d.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/E84B2EF7-F6D1-4210-BF12-76D0FC32D9DB_zpslx5paq1d.jpg.html)

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/FBFD775C-D430-4BA8-885A-64649E29D092_zpsfx9d6r10.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/FBFD775C-D430-4BA8-885A-64649E29D092_zpsfx9d6r10.jpg.html)


Next round of bloods will have this tested plus Total T.

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/CB92AF5C-6D5B-465B-AD78-EA85EB89DCD8_zpsk1wqhem6.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/CB92AF5C-6D5B-465B-AD78-EA85EB89DCD8_zpsk1wqhem6.jpg.html)

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s408/scope75/3100BCDA-2B14-4FC9-A753-7EEDC8AE4071_zpsqqrckhue.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/scope75/media/3100BCDA-2B14-4FC9-A753-7EEDC8AE4071_zpsqqrckhue.jpg.html)

[Jelisej]

Inject it 3X a week, before or after HCG- and make sure you get HCG prescribed.

Your next bloodwork you need to do before next injection.

As for injecting- you can also try subcutaneous, for some people it works better (slightly slower release) but for some not.


As for bloods, apart of usual stuff connected to low testosterone- your ferritin is low and you need to bring it in upper 1/3, you can try with iron supplements but make sure that doses are low

what time is your normal waking up time, and what time blood was drawn?

it seems that progesterone is on low side so far, so continue with pregnenolone and DHEA, as it needs topping up. I beleive that your body is trying to keep cortisol in good levels but on expense of other hormones in line- preg, DHEA...

Thyroid seems OK so far, same as adrenals- it will be need to check after testosterone increases- as demand for them will be increased and it could potentially lead to problem tough I think it will not in near future.

IGF levels are lowish as well but thats probably because sex hormones are low as well, it may improve in future if not than GHRP's are maybe option.

[Scope75]

Inject it 3X a week, before or after HCG- and make sure you get HCG prescribed.

Your next bloodwork you need to do before next injection.

As for injecting- you can also try subcutaneous, for some people it works better (slightly slower release) but for some not.
No RX for HCG or a AI at this time and I brought up both.
I have a couple vials of HCG that I could use but not sure how she'd react when my next round of bloods comes back or if it'll throw up a red flag.

Yes my next BW test will be 7-10 days after an injection or right before my next injection. Samething just worded different.

I thought about SubQ but went IM since I'm a Test Virgin and wanted to get my first IM injection under my belt. I'll stick with IM injections until my next bloods then maybe I'll play around with SubQ injections.

[Scope75]

She did mention I could have Klinefelter syndrome but she said the test is spendy and will find out if my insurance will cover some of it or just how expensive it is without insurance.

Haven't really look into what Klinefelter syndrome is all about but will get on that this week.

[Jelisej]

You defintely need HCG, and definitely more frequent injections- once a week or less is simply not good enough, as it will create peak and than it will be low, 3X is best IMO but you can get away with 2X a week.

Also I think its best to have AI at hand, otherwise things can go sideways, and you dont want gyno either.

IM injection is fine, SQ is just an possibility.


And you dont have a Klinefelter syndrome, I can see that on your photo.
You'll get trauma by listening to your doctor one day you're bipolar next Klinefelter syndrome, fcuking hell.

[lt1head]

You defintely need HCG, and definitely more frequent injections- once a week or less is simply not good enough, as it will create peak and than it will be low, 3X is best IMO but you can get away with 2X a week.

X2 on this. the rollercoaster is hell at less than twice weekly. SubQ helps with the up and down, but i would recommend a 28 or 29. 26g is difficult to get in without going through all of my subQ tissue into god knows what.

[Scope75]

You defintely need HCG, and definitely more frequent injections- once a week or less is simply not good enough, as it will create peak and than it will be low, 3X is best IMO but you can get away with 2X a week.

Also I think its best to have AI at hand, otherwise things can go sideways, and you dont want gyno either.

IM injection is fine, SQ is just an possibility.


And you dont have a Klinefelter syndrome, I can see that on your photo.
You'll get trauma by listening to your doctor one day you're bipolar next Klinefelter syndrome, fcuking hell.

What's a good way to get my endo to give me a RX for HCG and is it expensive? What do I need to tell her?
My insurance blows and not even my test is covered.

I have plenty AI on hand but it's all RC stuff but it's legit.

My Avi is me on Trest and when I'm not lifting I look just like the photos you see when you google Klinefelter syndrome. But I also think that's from me being insulin resistant and having screwed up T/E levels/ratio.

Only my GF has said im bypolar not my GP or endo.

[Scope75]

X2 on this. the rollercoaster is hell at less than twice weekly. SubQ helps with the up and down, but i would recommend a 28 or 29. 26g is difficult to get in without going through all of my subQ tissue into god knows what.

Yeah I'll split up my injections so I inject twice a week.
I have 1/2inch 29s, 5/8ths and 1 1/2inch 25s.

[Scope75]

Oh and this probably sounds abusive or crazy since I just did my first injection but what's your guys thoughts on adding in some TD Epiandro?

Just a thought and I love epiandro so thought Id ask.

[Jelisej]

I would wait with epiandro till your testosterone levels (and everything else) is stabilised.

HCG maintains fertility, testicle size and function (to certain extent) plus it has beneficial effect on lot of other hormones I, very often it increases libido among other benefits. Sometimes it can deplete pregnenolone levels in some people whose body cannot make enough of it so pregnenolone is good addition to HCG, and as you are already using it you have no worries.

[Scope75]

Ok I'll hold off for now.
I have high hopes for TRT and Epiandro.
What's your thoughts on that combo?

Ok my next visit I'll press the HCG and see if I can get an RX for it or should I just source my own?
Will it have any effects on my next round of blood test thou or just stop before the test?
I'm not to sure exactly how HCG works/functions in the body.

[Scope75]

Jelisej What's your preferred method and location for injections?

[Scope75]

Inject it 3X a week, before or after HCG- and make sure you get HCG prescribed.

Your next bloodwork you need to do before next injection.

As for injecting- you can also try subcutaneous, for some people it works better (slightly slower release) but for some not.


As for bloods, apart of usual stuff connected to low testosterone- your ferritin is low and you need to bring it in upper 1/3, you can try with iron supplements but make sure that doses are low

what time is your normal waking up time, and what time blood was drawn?

it seems that progesterone is on low side so far, so continue with pregnenolone and DHEA, as it needs topping up. I beleive that your body is trying to keep cortisol in good levels but on expense of other hormones in line- preg, DHEA...

Thyroid seems OK so far, same as adrenals- it will be need to check after testosterone increases- as demand for them will be increased and it could potentially lead to problem tough I think it will not in near future.

IGF levels are lowish as well but thats probably because sex hormones are low as well, it may improve in future if not than GHRP's are maybe option.

Ok I'll pick up some iron or maybe just a MultiV.

I usually get up around 5 and I may've woke up a little earlier that day can't really remember.

Keep the pregnenolone at 50mg too?
Have a few tubes of Dermacrine so I'll ise that until I'm out.

Next visit I'll ask if she'll run bloods like she did the first time. Is that right or is more test needed?

[Jelisej]

No more tests are needed, you can do same next time and if everything is OK than after that you can do only basic.

If you started with 50 mg of pregnenolone reduce dermacrine to 2 pumps, for time being.

As with HCG, at the moment you can get your own, but definitely press doc to prescribe it, it does not matter if it will affect blood test as you're going to use it permanantly anyway- only dont inject it day before tests. If I remeber you used HCG before and it worked, it brought test levels up as well- so I beleive it will work again.

I must say I'm bit surprised at your LH and FSH level as they were on higher end, if I remeber correctly before was always on low side? (LH/FSH does come into peaks tough).


I'm not on TRT, I did some trials while back and I was using IM- I tried SQ but was getting lumps of swelling, which happens for some people, also some people E2 can go higher- but for majority SQ works better- less aromatisation and little bit steadier test levels.

[Scope75]

No more tests are needed, you can do same next time and if everything is OK than after that you can do only basic.

If you started with 50 mg of pregnenolone reduce dermacrine to 2 pumps, for time being.

As with HCG, at the moment you can get your own, but definitely press doc to prescribe it, it does not matter if it will affect blood test as you're going to use it permanantly anyway- only dont inject it day before tests. If I remeber you used HCG before and it worked, it brought test levels up as well- so I beleive it will work again.

I must say I'm bit surprised at your LH and FSH level as they were on higher end, if I remeber correctly before was always on low side? (LH/FSH does come into peaks tough).


I'm not on TRT, I did some trials while back and I was using IM- I tried SQ but was getting lumps of swelling, which happens for some people, also some people E2 can go higher- but for majority SQ works better- less aromatisation and little bit steadier test levels.

But did you see she changed up what was ordered for the next round of bloods?

Ok I'll recon some HCG and subq it Tuesday Thursday Saturday an inject test Monday and Friday.

Yeah I noticed that jump too. Not sure what changed other than I had sex 3 days in a row leading up to the test. Lol might of sparked them up

[weekend]

These bloods look really good man! Looks like you're primary I guess too...

Definitely in need of that test for your iron and RBC. Cardio is going to improve massively!