SHBG questions

[English]

Hi Guys,

I am recovering from a drug reaction via diet, lifting etc. Got my T back to 600 from 300, put on over 20LB of muscle after losing the same amount. My problem is rising SHGB. When i tested at 300 for T my SHGB was 31. When i tested at 600 for T my SHBG rose to 51 which wipes out my gains in total T, that also confuses me because i read that more androgen tends to reduce SHBG.

This is too high and i continue to be symptomatic of low androgen - ie i am sometimes brain fogged and i am no longer a stud!!

By the way my E is well under control. Was just 36 last time out and is usually below 18.

Measures currently in place to lower SHBG are:

- High protein diet to raise insulin (also plenty of carbs and saturated fat - almost all organic and grass fed etc)
- 6 mg daily boron supplementation, cycled with avena sativa month on month off.
- Stress relief measures (meditation etc. etc.) - the illness totally stressed me out
- currently cycling IML epi andro for 3 weeks, not just because DHT reduces SHBG, but also to emulate CDNUTS who recovered from same ADR using similar strategy

So, my questions are:
1- Any other suggestions?
2- Should i consider Danazol? But isn't it suppressive and therefore not a long term option?
3- Proviron? Again, i understand this is suppressive, but what about 25mg a day? Also, would it nail my E to unhealthy levels?

Guys, i continue to feel shit compared to a normal human, so any insight will be very welcome.

[entropy]

Hey English, good to see you here. These guys are the brightest of the bright in the performance community and have helped me quite a lot already. They'll definitely steer you in the right direction.

I wouldn't personally recommend anything like proviron/danazol/dht derivatives when we technically have access to the real thing via (still legal) prohormones. Also cdnuts experience with androhard and this studyhttp://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem-56-2-320
Leads me to believe that anything but the real thing is potentially counterproductive.

The biggest aspect of all of this is time IMO. All the work we do to fix our problem just puts time on our side, time does the healing in the end of it all. You have my email anyway buddy, I hope these guys have more info for you.

[Jelisej]

Welcome to forum!

OK- I think your question should be- why is my SHBG high?
And that is a difficult question, one of the reason is that you aromatise a lot- SHBG very often follows E2, and your E2 is high- 36 pg/ml is too high, especially on 600 ng/dl of testosterone, so that is one of reasons- now if you would use aromasin/exemestane which would lower your E2, and SHBG as well (exemestane does lower SHBG somewhat as it has some androgenic action?), that would maybe bring your free test up a bit, maybe even your total test.
but again, question is why such high aromatisation when free test is low?
And I dont have an answer to that question as there are number of possible causes, for example it could indicate problem with liver?
one of them that comes to my mind is adrenal insufficiency? As you said "brain fog"- and brain fog is usually symptom of low cortisol level.
So I think you need to go step back and investigate all possible causes, do some bloodworks and then take it from there.

[Scope75]

Already....

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jelisej again.

[English]

Thanks to Entropy and Jelisej, I don't know what Scope means about spreading reputation around though, does that mean i should introduce myself a bit more!!!

That makes alot of sense regards the issue being E2. I previously had undetectable E and i had achy joints so i changed my diet and binned many of the T raising foods that i was religiously sticking too - that do so by reducing aromatose. I also started eating grapefruit every morning which reduces E metabolisation and drinking alcohol moderately (for same reason). Joint problems disappeared, but obviously i've gone a bit too far. The E figure of 36 was actually when i had T of 480, so i must be converting way too much to E now i have higher T. All this coincides with me putting on over 20LBs, mostly in muscle, but no doubt my fat percentage rose too which would have increased aromatase.

Regards adrenals, i have excellent figures and did a 24hr test, also all other isolated blood tests have shown ideal Cortisol. TSH ideal too.

Hence, i think it looks likely that my SHBG is sensitive to E. Wow, i had no idea that a little too much E can set up such a spiral and effectively wipe out free T.

Given my dramatic diet change and the timings exactly coinciding, i reckon i will re-adjust my diet, hit the pomegranate juice and the odd glass of red wine, give it a couple of months, re-test.

Thanks again, the answer was staring me in the face, although to be fair i did not realise that 36 was too much E, however when you look at the amount of free T available, even when my SHBG was 31, it clearly is too much.

So i suppose SHBG is partly the bodies defence mechanism to too much E. No doubt i am oversimplifying - or just wrong!!

Thanks again, i am chuffed with this answer, if i need an AI, i will come back for guidance, but i reckon diet and the fact that i am doing a prohormone cycle will do the trick.

With regards pro hormones, yeah i am on epi andro right now and am binning the idea of derivatives in the form of Proviron etc. I agree with you Entropy, thanks though.

[English]

Am considering Aromasin after researching that the most powerful foods for anti E also tend to be the most powerful anti DHT foods (exactly the opposite i need for my specific condition)
Does anyone know if AI's are also anti DHT? Given that foods are usually both, this wouldn't be so strange.
Also, i don't want to permanently block aromatase in my body, and i found the following drug description for Aromasin that says exactly that:
AROMASIN® Tablets for oral administration contain 25 mg of exemestane, an irreversible, steroidal aromatase inactivator. Exemestane is chemically... Can someone confirm/deny this? Is this normal for an AI? Are there any others that don't permanently block Aromatase?
I am new to this scene, although i have lifted regularly throughout my life, i have never dabbled with hormones, and after fin, i don't want to risk fucking myself up any further. Further advice would be appreciated. Thanks guys.

[Haritec]

Others will explain this better than me - but when they say irreversible in this regard they do not mean for life. The exemestane binds to aromatase irreversibly - in that it does not let go and the aromatase is disabled from converting anything to estrogen. But it only does it for one molecule for each molecule of exemestane. It is also called a suicidal inhibitor (as I recall ) in that it destroys itself by binding to aromatase.

Your body continues to make aromatase and if you don't take any fresh exemestane - that new aromatase wont be bound to exemestane so will be active just like normal. The terminal half-life was 8.9 h. Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 +/- 14% was observed at 12 h. So after about 24 hours most of the effect is gone.

Pharmacokinetics and dose finding of a potent aromatase inhibitor, ... - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14671195)

[English]

Thanks Haritec, i appreciate that, so basically it is safe with no permanent effects.

Can you or someone else tell me the dosage for mild E suppression. I don't want to hammer E as it is only 35 +, however because my free t is low, i need to lower E a bit to coax SHBG down, which in turn, i assume, will raise free T and then increase E a little more. So logically i would guess that i need to start low and gradually increase dosage until my system is balanced. Am i right? What dose would i start on? Also, if someone were to want to get hold of genuine aromasin......? PM me?

[weekend]

^but, one must remember that despite the half life, estrogen remains suppressed for longer because it takes time to return to baseline levels of aromatase.

[Jelisej]

^but, one must remember that despite the half life, estrogen remains suppressed for longer because it takes time to return to baseline levels of aromatase.

With aromasin/exemestane estrogen returns slowly to baseline after 5-7 days, without rebound. If one had very high levels than it may take more, not quite sure.

English, it seems that you sussed it out, btw drinking alcohol defintiely increases both E2 and SHBG as liver is then preoccupied with detoxification, in general liver has a lot to do with both E2 and SHBG, people with liver problems tend to have high SHBG.


If your cortisol is ideal (top of range) and if TSH is good less than 1.5, and no other underlying problems your testosterone levels should go up with decent lifestyle.

ideal E2 levels should be around 25 +/- 5, more than that its not good, especially if your testosterone is low.

[entropy]

English, the "you need to spread some reputation around" thing scope posted was in reference to the fact that Jelisej knows more about hormones than most endocrinologists, therefore gets given so much rep the forum tells people to spread it around before giving more to Jel. He's really the forums resident hormonal genius.

[Jelisej]

English, the "you need to spread some reputation around" thing scope posted was in reference to the fact that Jelisej knows more about hormones than most endocrinologists, therefore gets given so much rep the forum tells people to spread it around before giving more to Jel. He's really the forums resident hormonal genius.

:o
Thanks for a kind words.

[English]

OK, maybe i need some tuition in forums, because i still have no idea what the "spread the rep" means in practical terms, ie how do you "spread it around?". I am simply using the quick reply function, i'm not intentionally kicking everything back to jelisej, surely it is up to him whether he responds or whether someone else does - i thought it was an open forum. Please could someone explain in child like terms me what i am doing wrong. I thought i was simply responding in the only way possible - by replying.

I hate to think i'm doing something wrong/offending anyone etc. I simply don't know what i am doing wrong.

[English]

OK, just discovered the reputation button, but i hadn't used that at all before the comment "already!!! spread the rep" so not sure what i had done at that point.

I want to be a good forum member but please bear with me as i am new to this.

Thanks for the advice on AI's and particularly the drinking link with SHBG which makes sense. I read elsewhere the opposite, however there is some serious amount of bullshit around on the internet. From today i no longer drink alcohol. I would love to say i am T total but i gave up caffeine over a year ago, what has my life become?!!!

[English]

Update, after much thought i am now taking very low does anastrozole (0.25mg EOD for 10 days) and graduating until i find the sweet spot. I intended to try and do it with diet, however almost all natural anti aromatase foods are also anti DHT (the opposite of what i wish to achieve post finasteride)
I also have Letrozole (femara) and will try that if anastrozole fails to give a response (in case it is bunk)
I will continue with lifting and HIIT routines, high quality high protein and fat diet etc. to keep T rising and see what happens.
I picked Let/Ananastrozole by the way, over the AI suggested by jelisej because i trawled for post fin sufferers having success with AI's, and i found a number of them with success with those compounds, however i will be indebted to Jelisej should this general AI approach work, so thanks again for the advice. I will report back, and any comments or support etc. will be appreciated.

[Jelisej]

You should choose aromasin/exemestane IMO, as it can further bring SHBG down, and it does not have a negative impact on lipide profile. And is much easier to dose and there is no "rebound" effect.

[Scope75]

You should choose aromasin/exemestane IMO, as it can further bring SHBG down, and it does not have a negative impact on lipide profile. And is much easier to dose and there is no "rebound" effect.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.....

[entropy]

Jel, what's your opinion on the finasteride issue in general? Considering its a progesterone based steroid iirc, could this essentially just be super deca dick?

[tallstraw]

You should choose aromasin/exemestane IMO, as it can further bring SHBG down, and it does not have a negative impact on lipide profile. And is much easier to dose and there is no "rebound" effect.

After being schooled thoroughly on this by Dr. Scally(hopefully you know who that is) and other medical professionals, apparently estrogen rebound "isn't a thing"

[tallstraw]

The concept of estrogen rebound, as caused by an AI isn't backed by credible evidence. Apparently it's as simple as that.

[Jelisej]

The concept of estrogen rebound, as caused by an AI isn't backed by credible evidence. Apparently it's as simple as that.

Ok, but can you give some details please, what happens when E2 gets unbound, aromatase life or any details or research that will shade light...
Thanks.

[tallstraw]

I deactivated my facebook..wouldn't be able to find it in the group pages. might as well disregard what I said since I can't back it up with the articles from the discussion.

[Jelisej]

I deactivated my facebook..wouldn't be able to find it in the group pages. might as well disregard what I said since I can't back it up with the articles from the discussion.

I'm not going to disregard it, there are lot of stuff in this area that I need info on and I was hoping that you may have it- for example aromatise active/half-life etc- I can say that when using and stopping "reversible" only portion of E2 comes back, and if one was keeping too low E2 for too long (number of weeks) usually it takes long time for E2/estrogen to comes back to baseline- so "rebound" does not happen always, but sometimes does happen (IMO)- but lot of it is unknown.

[somm]

How many people here at SS have gotten estrogen rebound after taking an AI?? I've never taken it so I can't comment, but real life expirience is the way to find out. Esp. anyone who has blood tests taken after PCT or an AI administration.

[Jelisej]

How many people here at SS have gotten estrogen rebound after taking an AI?? I've never taken it so I can't comment, but real life expirience is the way to find out. Esp. anyone who has blood tests taken after PCT or an AI administration.

I think lot of us saw evidence of what we call "estrogen rebound" during cycle and it happens a on PCT, but it could be that mechanism of action is different from what we think or even that "rebound" is an umbrella term covers a broad number of different but similar things.

[English]

Just taking this discussion back to me taking anastrozole and maybe Let, rather than exemestane. I am first seeing if i am positively effected, as us post fin guys are affected very differently to things than normal humans - believe me - hence the hundreds of endo's scratching their confused heads all over the world.
exemestane is my preferred choice, but i see that a number of post fin guys have had success specificially from anastrozole and let. Hence i will look for signs of a positive response. Once i know that bringing E down brings that positive response, i will look at maybe seeing if i can replicate it with exemestane, given that it does not effect lipid profile, which is obviously important to me given i may need to be on it for quite a while.
My strategy here is purely to increase free T to a point that i can train intensely enough to build muscle and lose fat, which should leave me producing less aromatase, allowing myself to weane off any AI. My problem and that of pretty much all post fin guys (IMO) is that our T is not being converted effeciently enough to DHT, which of course is anti aromatase in itself, and this leaves us in a catch 22, needing to get our bodies to greek god level just in order to reduce E to average guy levels, whilst feeling absolutely shite, exhausted etc. Bear in mind here that i was an army PTI, bodybuilder and i even competed for my country when i was at youth level, so i know how to train hard and have been all my life - post fin though, training is a nightmare, just no intensity.
So i plan to train harder as free T rises and allows (during use of AI), then start cycling again with DHT pro hormones such as alpha hard (presence of DHT upregulates AR's)
So in summary, i am looking forward to going onto exemestane, but a one month testing period on the low lipid changing anastrozole should not kill me.
By the way, i am feeling noticeably better on just 0.25mg of anastrozole EOD (after 4 days) but still far from good, so i will keep it at this dose for the 10 days due to the 50hr half life and then graduate to 0.25mg ED if no further improvement.
Am interested in the so-called rebound effect, but i see there is some conjecture, so for now will continue my AI experiment.
Your comments are welcomed - i need to keep learning, kid on the way in a few months so i need to get better, sharpish.

[Cdsnuts]

Just an FYI. Res100 crushes my estrogen. Your mileage may vary.

[entropy]

Just an FYI. Res100 crushes my estrogen. Your mileage may vary.
Seconded. After 2-3 weeks need to half the dose.

[Cdsnuts]

I had to go even lower. I've been running a natty stack which uses Res as the backbone and I was only dosing 5mls once in the morning. I dropped down to 3mls once in the morning and did that for a few days. Saturday morning took my morning dose, went to the gym and by the time I was home I was in full blown low estro sides. Hot flashes every couple minutes right along with minor panic attacks and having to take deep breathes. Shit is no joke. I purposely drank some beers that evening and didn't take the res the next morning. By mid morning, I felt great. Haven't taken it since Saturday morning and I still feel damn good.

Not sure how my dose is going to fall now...maybe a few mls every couple days. I think the other herbs I'm on are contributing to the low estro as well. The Res just put it over the top.

[entropy]

That's pretty insane. I'm test running it ATM with my normal herbs etc too. 2 weeks in killed my libido, old fella doing his best turtle impression, cracking joints. No anxiety etc though. Switched it up to 2ml twice a day and was back in the sweet spot within two days. Powerful stuff.

[Cdsnuts]

That's pretty insane. I'm test running it ATM with my normal herbs etc too. 2 weeks in killed my libido, old fella doing his best turtle impression, cracking joints. No anxiety etc though. Switched it up to 2ml twice a day and was back in the sweet spot within two days. Powerful stuff.

I failed to mention turtle dick, but mine was doing the same impression. No libido either. Things went back to normal within 24 hours of my last dose.

[entropy]

Hope English doesn't mind us derailing his thread a little talking about low estro sides. I wouldn't like to find out what the pharma drugs can do to a person if res100 can crush estrogen like this. I think fpr is sensitive to low estro too, would be great if he could weigh in.

It must be infuriatingly difficult to keep in the sweet spot for guys on trt etc. Its really difficult to tell the difference between high and low.

[lt1head]

It must be infuriatingly difficult to keep in the sweet spot for guys on trt etc. Its really difficult to tell the difference between high and low.

Man... one month you're in the sweet spot and next month you're double the high range limit.... It's quite the adventure!

[English]

Hey guys, in reply to the mini thread about res, yeah i've done 2 mini PCT's on that so far over the last 6 months without feeling a damn thing. I was taking 4ml twice a day for 3 weeks. It is either ineffective on me, or my E is just too high now - who knows? - anyhow, i can't afford to put more than that down my neck every day for months, so regrettably i have gone pharma, which is much stronger and miles cheaper, it also isn't one of natures anti DHT compounds which res is - just look at the hair loss community, many of whom use it regularly.
By the way, i am feeling miles better today, libido up, and mind much sharper, almost no brain fog, each day i am feeling better than the last so i am very encouraged by the opening rounds of low dose AI. I also had a far better workout earlier today. Still miles to go, but i am starting to feel like i am heading in the right direction.
I better point out that i started Centrepoint's Holosync program, recommended by CDSNUTS, just days before the AI, and i am enjoying that alot, so the benefit could be partly or completely down to that, i don't think so though as i too early for that programme to reap such rewards.
It is taking a lot of willpower to not raise the AI dose and stick with the plan.

Oh, just for comedy value, i'll tell you what the NHS endo did for me when i saw him in December. He heard about my fall from normality, about my life changing symptoms etc. He viewed my bloods, and saw the same results as already outlined in this thread, and he requested more bloods for hormone and vitamin panel. I thought great, he is taking me seriously. I gave the bloods and then found he had literally just requested total T. No E, no SHBG etc. and then to cap it off i got a letter stating the next appointment is in 4 months, it even says "At which point we will discuss your latest blood results"! Fucking genius.

I reckon i'm better off with you guys by a mile.

By the way, i gauge whether my E is low or not based on whether i well up or not during each episode of Greys Anatomy. This is a very accurate method.

Question: If, as has been shown to be the case (on rat penile tissue), AR's upregulate in the present of DHT, then how does the presence of excess Estrogen effect AR's in men?- i am assuming by the way that Estrogen binds to the same AR's as T and DHT?
I ask this because post Fin guys tend to have excess aromatase for a long time, and i wonder whether this reprograms AR's etc. to any extent, maybe making them more sensitive to E than normal folks or maybe less sensitive to T and DHT, even after E is brought down to normal levels.

I'm interested in any replies to this because my whole plan revolves around presenting my body with as much androgen as possible in order to upregulate AR's/and AR5 enzymes. I just wonder if it is E that is partly responsible for downregulation of AR's or simply because of the lack of presence of enough T/DHT for so long.

[Cdsnuts]

Resveratrol is not anti DHT. It's anti E. The reason the guys on hairloss sites use it is for it's purported effects on circulation and reducing inflammation.

[entropy]

Agree with cd here. I'm really not sure that resveratrol has much impact on DHT if any. The hairloss community will take all sorts of crap to try and fix their hair. Res also being an anti oxidant I think they probably use it for that benefit rather than the impact on dht, which is likely negated by the increase in T from lack of aromatising.

People get emotional with low or high estrogen from what I've managed to ferret out, it's difficult to gauge based upon just one symptom bro.

I'm not sure dht has much impact on the AR either, but it does upregulate 5ar according to the studies. I'm not sure about estrogens impact on the receptor either but I think I've read somewhere that estradiol is a pretty potent 5ari itself.

[English]

Yeah i read that too, but i also read it was anti DHT more than once, i am pretty sure from the hairloss sites. Don't get me wrong, i take your word every time over those crazy fuckers but the fact is that i've tried Res with literally no noticeable result at all. I really wanted it to have some impact, but sadly it had none - on me.
Longer term, if the positives i am experiencing from AI continue, i plan to start adding Chrysin/Dim to see how low dose AI i can get away with, apparently there is a South African brand of DIM called 13 Complex that specifically targets E2 pathways (Better than others, so says Legendary's endo from PH, who has treated Legendary with complete success, along with 2 other post fin sufferers apparently). Who knows, a couple of months of better workouts, i may be able to do without pharma AI at all, that is my aim anyhow. Right now, i need to keep on and see how things develop, for all i know this improvement in my condition may be coincidence. It wouldn't be the first time / placebo etc.
Right now though, i am very close to feeling like my old self.

[English]

Hey Entropy, that was a joke by the way regarding using welling up to Greys Anatomy as a gauge on E - i'm not quite that crazy. No it's gunna be fairly straight forward for me to gauge E, purely because, even with high E, my symptoms are really stable in the bedroom, and my routine is pretty fixed, from diet, exercise to supplements, i pretty much do the same thing every week. Hence if i get worse, i'm too low, and i can only be too low, otherwise, keep upping the dose.

Interesting re E being a potent ARI itself, i didn't know that. I guess E is the number one thing to control.

[Cdsnuts]

Agree with cd here. I'm really not sure that resveratrol has much impact on DHT if any. The hairloss community will take all sorts of crap to try and fix their hair. Res also being an anti oxidant I think they probably use it for that benefit rather than the impact on dht, which is likely negated by the increase in T from lack of aromatising.

People get emotional with low or high estrogen from what I've managed to ferret out, it's difficult to gauge based upon just one symptom bro.

I'm not sure dht has much impact on the AR either, but it does upregulate 5ar according to the studies. I'm not sure about estrogens impact on the receptor either but I think I've read somewhere that estradiol is a pretty potent 5ari itself.

E being a potent 5a reductase enzyme? That doesn't sound quite right.

[entropy]

E being a potent 5a reductase enzyme? That doesn't sound quite right.

It's a reductase inhibitor according to the studies I've read.

Effects of sex steroids on skin 5 alpha-reductase activity in vitro. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1828548)
[Effect of estradiol on 5 alpha-reductase activity in osteoblast-li... - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7556776)

I'd be a little wary of DIM, English. I've read a few studies that suggest it binds to the same receptors DHT does, the studies I found were only in prostate cancer cells however.

[English]

Yeah i plan to research the fuck out of anything i put in my body, DIM is just a possibility, but i like to have a plan. I did read the same studies on the cancer cells. I was frustrated that it is not clear whether they go for just cancer cells or for the DHT receptors outside of it.
Interestingly, there is a similar study using pomegranate extract against prostate cancer cells, in which the some compound from the juice is said to do the exact same thing - ie bind to the DHT receptor. Just another reason why i am a bit wary of many of natures natural anti E compounds, because many of them are said to be, or could well be powerful anti DHT. (i will just throw in here the fact that the main active anti aging compounds in red wine/ grape skins / res100, are also active compounds in pomegranate juice - just sayin)
All of it is confusing as fuck, and given all these studies tend to be very blinkered, the reality is never clear.

[Cdsnuts]

It's a reductase inhibitor according to the studies I've read.

Effects of sex steroids on skin 5 alpha-reductase activity in vitro. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1828548)
[Effect of estradiol on 5 alpha-reductase activity in osteoblast-li... - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7556776)

I'd be a little wary of DIM, English. I've read a few studies that suggest it binds to the same receptors DHT does, the studies I found were only in prostate cancer cells however.

5ar inhibitor....makes sense. I've never heard that before.

[Jelisej]

Yeah i plan to research the fuck out of anything i put in my body, DIM is just a possibility, but i like to have a plan. I did read the same studies on the cancer cells. I was frustrated that it is not clear whether they go for just cancer cells or for the DHT receptors outside of it.
Interestingly, there is a similar study using pomegranate extract against prostate cancer cells, in which the some compound from the juice is said to do the exact same thing - ie bind to the DHT receptor. Just another reason why i am a bit wary of many of natures natural anti E compounds, because many of them are said to be, or could well be powerful anti DHT. (i will just throw in here the fact that the main active anti aging compounds in red wine/ grape skins / res100, are also active compounds in pomegranate juice - just sayin)
All of it is confusing as fuck, and given all these studies tend to be very blinkered, the reality is never clear.

I think you're going to deep into studies, you only need to improve lifestyle (less alcohol, look after liver) and in the first few weeks lower E2 a bit, now if after that your SHBG is not going down, or situation is not improved you need to check other possible underlying causes, or what is causing possible high aromatisation or why you possible have low metabolic rate (why your body cannot sustain higher test. level)

DHT does not neccessary lower E2- typically older males have lower testosterone levels than in younger days but higher DHT and E2 levels.

Eventually if things are not improved you will have to do extensive bloodworks, and then take it from there.
And you need to include not just sex hormones but thyroid, adrenal hormones as well, and vit d, insulin and glucose levels etc...
Try not to stress yourself as any kind of stress in long term can ruin your endocrine system.

[Cdsnuts]

I think you're going to deep into studies, you only need to improve lifestyle (less alcohol, look after liver) and in the first few weeks lower E2 a bit, now if after that your SHBG is not going down, or situation is not improved you need to check other possible underlying causes, or what is causing possible high aromatisation or why you possible have low metabolic rate (why your body cannot sustain higher test. level)

DHT does not neccessary lower E2- typically older males have lower testosterone levels than in younger days but higher DHT and E2 levels.

Eventually if things are not improved you will have to do extensive bloodworks, and then take it from there.
And you need to include not just sex hormones but thyroid, adrenal hormones as well, and vit d, insulin and glucose levels etc...
Try not to stress yourself as any kind of stress in long term can ruin your endocrine system.

J...unfortunately it's just not that easy for these guys post finasteride. Having gone through what they are now, you have to actively nudge your system in a consistent way over time towards the correct equilibrium. It doesn't happen on it's own. This is evidenced by the thousands of guys who have done nothing and have stayed basically castrated for ten or more years.

[Jelisej]

J...unfortunately it's just not that easy for these guys post finasteride. Having gone through what they are now, you have to actively nudge your system in a consistent way over time towards the correct equilibrium. It doesn't happen on it's own. This is evidenced by the thousands of guys who have done nothing and have stayed basically castrated for ten or more years.

Well, he did not say that he used finasteride, or maybe I missed it, but in that case it all puts in different perspective, even tough I would still work with basics first (tunning hormones), even with fina/propecia sufferers it has shown benefits. After all testosterone can mimic DHT and vice versa.

[entropy]

J...unfortunately it's just not that easy for these guys post finasteride. Having gone through what they are now, you have to actively nudge your system in a consistent way over time towards the correct equilibrium. It doesn't happen on it's own. This is evidenced by the thousands of guys who have done nothing and have stayed basically castrated for ten or more years.

Yeah. And the bloodwork shows nothing of value a lot of the time. We still don't really know what the problem is exactly, its very frustrating and painful to go through, very similar to a rollercoaster in peaks and troughs.

Fortunately with cds help and the experience of a few other guys, we've got a rough idea of what we can so to fix the situation. Personally I've improved dramatically in the space of a few months due to cds regime and a few other things ive added to it from the experience of other guys but I've still got a ways to go to get back to normal.

The common issue is that testosterone replacement therapy only causes temporary or no improvements. In fact, any "extreme" treatment methods seem to cause a brief improvement followed by the body regressing to this new "default".

You really wouldn't believe it though, Jel.

Whilst we're "finasterided" we just don't respond like normal people, things happen to us that aren't considered medically possible even.

Unfortunately, the path to healing ourselves is a long, difficult and hard one. But so damned worth it eventually.

Edit - you're right, Jel. In englishes first post he just said "adverse drug reaction".

Another edit: the brighter fin guys always find their way here, some of the dumber ones too. I'm considering a write up of everything I've done along the way, i'd be prepared to do the same with english if he emails me his details and condense down cds posts on the other forum. Just so there's a thread to point people towards when they show up.

[English]

I did repeatedly refer to "post fin" - as in post finasteride - but i guess that is not going to mean much to people outside of PH. I am moving on and tend to use the term - adverse drug reaction - as to be fair, it is not just post fin guys that suffer the type of symptoms we do, there are loads of adverse drug reactions that lead to fairly similar states, and it is a more neutral, less frightening term than PFS.
Anyway, it is not so bad once the hysteria is removed and you pull yourself together (sadly though some never do)
Entropy demonstates that it does not have to be so bad even in the opening months as he is one of the few to be calm really early on. Personally i was in a state of hysteria for at least 6 months and i only realise how much so now that i am relatively calm about it all.

Entropy: I would certainly be up for helping guys from PH and elsewhere get on the right track, but not until i am healed completely. Aside from the fact that i am my no. 1 priority right now, we just don't have the power to fully influence until we are fully healed. Just look at CD who is a god on PH. Anyone not healed is just a guy with a theory for everyone to shoot down, and that is one big reason why i am here now - i tried helping others on PH and i got rained on with PM's and e mails, many of which fairly abusive, only a few of which from guys committed to helping themselves and being helped.
Definitely once we are over the line though. I've thought about this a fair bit and i think implementing a system where each recoverer must mentor 2 sufferers would create the chain reaction needed, and to recover from this it really helps to have the support of a recoverer. This system would allow us to write the plan, mentor 2 guys each, then get the fuck on with our lives away from all this shite, knowing we have done our bit.
That stuff is definitely for the future though, for now i only truly give a fuck about my own recovery, in order that i can then be the best Dad/Husband possible and then be in a position to help others.

[English]

Jel, I have done a couple of extensive blood panels, everything came out great, apart from white blood cell count which was borderline low, but luckily i know i have always had a low WBC, even when i was feeling top of the world (part of a previous mandatory health screening panel my company ran tests and they came out virtually identical)
TSH was 1.06 and 5 months later 0.66 which is ideal
Cortisol 24 hour saliver test showed the perfect downward curve and all in range, albeit slightly high in range (to be fair i was shitting myself at the time)
lipids good, blood counts good, iron etc. basically both times i had full panels done i came out looking very healthy, all with exception to T, E, SHBG which we've already covered in depth.
I would normally post the full results in the normal way, but it is frankly pointless given that my last full panel was nearly a year ago.
Loads of people have recovered from this, it just requires that you stay calm and live life, eat and exercise correctly, ensure your hormones are optimised (however you achieve that) and the rest appears to be time, sometimes lots of it.
In my case, i now just need continuing support to keep hormones optimised as i am nailing the rest, so thanks again to all for the insights, keep 'em coming.

[weekend]

What happens with a post finasteride guy when they take a large amount of aas, like tren mast test stacked at a high dose?

- - - Updated - - -

I ask because I haven't seen anyone try it. Tren seems like it may cause the mental effects everyone with post fin syndrome is looking for. Yes it will shut down the system... But after maybe this will jumpstart?

[entropy]

What happens with a post finasteride guy when they take a large amount of aas, like tren mast test stacked at a high dose?

- - - Updated - - -

I ask because I haven't seen anyone try it. Tren seems like it may cause the mental effects everyone with post fin syndrome is looking for. Yes it will shut down the system... But after maybe this will jumpstart?

No idea about tren but I know of one guy who got his test pumped up into the 2000's with a doc and the only response he got was a bad temper. The same guy managed to get himself into a much better state doing what we do. I think he's now on low dose trt, andractim and solid diet and exercise and feeling pretty good. Gentle nudges seem to work much better in the long run for some reason, maybe a receptor issue? Who knows.

[Cdsnuts]

What happens with a post finasteride guy when they take a large amount of aas, like tren mast test stacked at a high dose?

- - - Updated - - -

I ask because I haven't seen anyone try it. Tren seems like it may cause the mental effects everyone with post fin syndrome is looking for. Yes it will shut down the system... But after maybe this will jumpstart?

PFS throws you for such a mind fuck that you become paralyzed with fear about making yourself worse off.....if that's even possible for some guys.

There is also two different components of the issue. The neurological ones, where in my opinion cause most of the issues. And then the physical ones which include hormones, etc. You can have your hormones perfect with PFS and not have shit for a libido. You also don't feel alpha, confident, etc. There is strong evidence of Gaba system impairment which would explain most of this.

[Jelisej]

OK, I did not read all the messages through, so I missed "finasteride" which does complicate things, and guys I do feel for you as your problems are hard to cope with and in the end you've been consequently let down by system, first you've been given medication that was not tested enough and after that you were left in dark labyrinth.

I think it would be a good idea to start another thread for finasteride/propecia sufferers with some guidance, studies and some tips,
Cdsnuts, I think you're most qualified in that area, with personal experience so if you could start it would be great?

English, I think its still best to proceed with what you intended to do- to see what happens when you get E2 little bit down, as highish E2 and sky high SHBG are still something that sticks out, and in my exeprience lowering SHBG directly rarely works, so hopefully lowering E2 will do some improvement.

[English]

Yeah thanks Jel,

One thing is for sure, you cannot possibly recover unless you have a reasonable hormone balance, as that alone will make you feel shit anyhow.

I am in agreement with CD regards neurological. You have to bear in mind that there are millions of normal people out there with normal hormone balance but are simply depressed. They still have muscle bulk, they have oily skin etc. (things we lose) but their depression alone plays havoc with their libido, zest for life etc. and they suffer from half the stuff the post fin guys do. Dopamine, seratonin etc. play a huge part in a persons persona.

When you start suffering from Post Fin, especially if you were previously an alpha type, so much so quick is removed from you, that you panic, and take yourself into a negative spiral. I would love to go back and start suffering from day one, because i would chill, and i bet i would have been fine within a couple of months. I bet the same applies to everyone. When you say these things people deride you who are suffering, because i think deep down they know that they significantly added to their own problems. Most Post Fin guys truly have no idea how far their mind has fallen.
I keep bettering my own mental state, thinking that is it, then i better it again and again and each time i realize i still have ways to go. It is incredible how far mentally we fall and we don't realize it.
You need to heal the mind, body and hormones all at the same time, while feeling utterly depressed and despondent much of the time, not an easy task, but very achievable if you know and truly believe that those things healed will, without a doubt constitute recovery.
I think a recovery thread on here is a good idea, but as i've said before, it should certainly be written by a recovered guy - none better than cdsnuts.
You have to be very careful you don't start attracting the negative section from PH, otherwise it will just turn into PH mark 2. No-one wants that.

All i want to do here is get my hormone balance straight and not be constantly reminded i am post Fin, so with respect to any recovery thread and the author, i will probably stay out of it until fully healed.

[Cdsnuts]

OK, I did not read all the messages through, so I missed "finasteride" which does complicate things, and guys I do feel for you as your problems are hard to cope with and in the end you've been consequently let down by system, first you've been given medication that was not tested enough and after that you were left in dark labyrinth.

I think it would be a good idea to start another thread for finasteride/propecia sufferers with some guidance, studies and some tips,
Cdsnuts, I think you're most qualified in that area, with personal experience so if you could start it would be great?

English, I think its still best to proceed with what you intended to do- to see what happens when you get E2 little bit down, as highish E2 and sky high SHBG are still something that sticks out, and in my exeprience lowering SHBG directly rarely works, so hopefully lowering E2 will do some improvement.

With all due respect to the guys from the other board who ended up here....I have no desire to make such a thread. I left all of my knowledge and experience with regards to that part of my life on the other board. I have no problem helping you guys out, but concerning a thread about propecia side effects on this board doesn't really fit with the theme of the board. Plus, there is already a massive website that caters to those guys. It's called Propecia Help. Doing a half ass replication with one thread just pales in comparison to what the other site has, which is thread after thread after sub forum, etc about things to help guys in that situation. Not to mention the volumes of posts (1000+) that I've made there over the years.

I left that board for a reason. Like English said, he just wants to move on and not dwell on the fact that he was finasterided. That's exactly what I did. I fixed myself over the course of many years, trial and error, and documented it all on that site. Then I moved on. That was such a dark, horrible, lonely time in my life, I'd prefer to not ever think about it again.

You guys came to a great board with tons of smart dudes with lots of experience. Take it for what it is.

[entropy]

I actually agree with cd here. I personally came here to learn about nutrition, lifting and performance. The finasteride issues are secondary. Cdnuts has done a hell of a lot for us already and his input in what we're doing is always appreciated, as is everyone else's here but we're at a point where we do have to fend for ourselves. Imo this is why cd managed to get himself back to where he is now in the first place, being able to take the initiative to figure out what works for us and put the effort in to get it done.

I do understand what Jelisej is saying though, it's a reasonable idea to want to have all the information in one thread, but all the information is out there if you're willing to put the time in and take the initiative to get better.

[weekend]

I still think someone should try tren post finasteride (although that hair will really disappear after that! Lol)

[entropy]

I still think someone should try tren post finasteride (although that hair will really disappear after that! Lol)

If things got desperate I'd try it but personally I have a strict no pharm policy. I'll stretch to androhard eventually, I've even got a bottle put aside but other than that natty all the way.

[English]

Yep, time to move on, and i don't blame you CD, i would have said exactly the same thing.

I am not post fin, i'm just a dude with high e and high shbg, i also need to increase dopamine by finding a way to genuinely laugh at the fucking great hole i dug for myself! Actually i'm feeling pretty good still, AI seems to be doing the trick.

Speaking of dopamine, here's some comedy for you, as part of my dopamine restructuring program, i figured i had to re-introduce myself to a social life, which i always do via sport (easiest way) Because after i took a certain pill, my old life fell apart, broke up from ex wife, lost about a zillion friends as they were all mutual, lost literally half a million pounds in house, gave up football because i couldn't do it anymore (physically), gave up playing league pool because the nights were too late and too much booze involved, so suddenly there was just me and my new girlfriend, so what do i do now? Fucking ping pong! I've gone from wealthy football playing alpha guy to forest gump!!!

I'm enjoying it actually, don't tell anyone.

[English]

Hey guys,

Just after some support/advice regarding anastrozole dosage. I started on 0.25mg EOD for first 7 days, then 0.25 ED for 3 days, and have now been on 0.5 ED for last 2 days.
I am trying to find sweet spot for E, and i have been feeling a gradual improvement in my condition which each dosage rise, so i must still be too high, but i understand it takes a while for blood plasma levels to settle, despite its half life only being 50 hrs.
So i don't want to go too quick and miss and the sweet spot, but then again, i only have another 23 tabs left in which to conclude my experiment into the effect of getting my E just right. (i got the anastrozole from an internet company so i cannot just buy another packet and guarrantee the dose is the same)
Should i stay on 0.5mg per day for a while, or should i go to 1mg ED?
The tabs may be underdosed for reasons above, but they cannot be total bunk as i have experienced a noticeable improvement in my condition.
Any advice would be appreciated.
(By the way, to save you reading the thread, i am simply trying to establish the effect of lowering E so that i can go to my endo and tell him results in order to get proper stuff prescribed) E was 36 when T was 490 and SHBG 51. Last bloods showed T at 600 but E and SHBG was not tested, so i am assuming my E would be knocking around 50 to 70 with a probably further rise in SHBG. I have been advised on this site to lower E which will also lower SHBG - seems to be working.

[Jelisej]

To find right spot can be extremely difficult,
You were doing completely opposite what I would suggest :)- basically you start with higher dose, till you get to sweet spot or get too low (you said you get symptoms with low pain in joints so you will know)- once you wait a bit than start again but with lower dose

Do blood test sometimes
Do not make assumptions

[English]

OK, got that, so in terms of higher dose, i guess that would be 1mg a day then right?

[entropy]

I'm not sure if Jel will agree with me here but going by what he said, if I were you i'd stop the a-dex entirely for maybe a week, pay attention to how I feel during that period and then restart at a higher dosage. Maybe 1 mg EOD until I pass the sweet spot, then .5 mg e3d or so and see how I feel. That's just how I'd approach it.

[Jelisej]

I'm not sure if Jel will agree with me here but going by what he said, if I were you i'd stop the a-dex entirely for maybe a week, pay attention to how I feel during that period and then restart at a higher dosage. Maybe 1 mg EOD until I pass the sweet spot, then .5 mg e3d or so and see how I feel. That's just how I'd approach it.

Yeah, this is exactly what I ment, you explained it better than I did :).

[English]

Cool, thanks guys, i thought something like that, but i want to be sure when taking this stuff, i recently noticed my joints popping way more and making a different sound, so perhaps i went too low already. Also - and this brings me back to the days on PH describing mementary changes in genitalia! - My balls are suddenly bigger and firmer, they were pretty big anyway!
Obviously this points to high T from lowering E, and as i have already said, i am feeling considerably better.
The only downside is that i am not fully recovered, but i guess it will take time for AR's etc. to upregulate/recover etc.
As advised, i will now stop the AI and monitor, if E did get slightly too low, then no doubt i will hit a sweet spot on the way back up. I will start it again at 1mg ED in a week.
I have learned something though, that lowering E and raising free T definitely happens on 0.5 ED or lower.
I have booked another blood test in 3 weeks time as i reckon i will be about right then. Will be very interesting to see results, particularly as so far every blood test i've had i've told my girlfriend my predicted results before i got them, based on how i felt, and i've been almost bang on each time thus far.
Thanks again for advice guys - it is appreciated

[English]

Hey guys, just an observation after viewing the bloods of another guy who had high SHBG (44) and High E (90). He took Letrozole 2.5mg ED (high dose) and it took literally 4 months before SHBG got down to 26. Months 1, 2, 3 and 4 his SHBG was 40, 37, 34, 26 and E was 90, 60, 60, 24, respectively. In this time is T rose from about 25 and peaked at 51 pmol at one point (about 60% over range!)
So is this typical? - not the T, but the slow and steady decline of SHBG over a period of 4 months?
I am encouraged by this because i am feeling better, no doubt, and if things are likely to improve for another 3 months, fucking brilliant.
Any comments on this? Is this guys steady progress normal etc?

[entropy]

Hey guys, just an observation after viewing the bloods of another guy who had high SHBG (44) and High E (90). He took Letrozole 2.5mg ED (high dose) and it took literally 4 months before SHBG got down to 26. Months 1, 2, 3 and 4 his SHBG was 40, 37, 34, 26 and E was 90, 60, 60, 24, respectively. In this time is T rose from about 25 and peaked at 51 pmol at one point (about 60% over range!)
So is this typical? - not the T, but the slow and steady decline of SHBG over a period of 4 months?
I am encouraged by this because i am feeling better, no doubt, and if things are likely to improve for another 3 months, fucking brilliant.
Any comments on this? Is this guys steady progress normal etc?

Hey man. Obviously, in our situation nothing is certain but I would hazard a guess and say "yes, that does sound pretty typical". Will your shbg stay down after stopping the adex? Maybe but it's unlikely to stay down where it is right now as your e will rise again.

I can only say what I'd do in your situation which is to finish the adex and observe for a few weeks and see whereabouts you level out. At which point I'd consider adding res100 or possibly aromasin in an attempt to keep it low or at least try and maintain a more favourable T-E ratio.

[English]

Thanks entropy, i'm cracking on as advised, it is just nice to know if a longer time frame for SHBG going down is fairly typical as with the example i gave. Mindset is all important as you know, and it is helpful to feel that things can and are fairly likely to improve (if it is typical for E and SHBG to take a while to lower, even on AI's) Right now i'm virtually recovered mate, so knowing that it gets better over months before plateauing is pretty bloody exciting.
Long term, i've noticed many guys with E issues get by on super low doses of AI's, sometimes even 0.2mg of let once a week is enough. It appears that getting E and SHBG down first without crushing is the tricky bit, maintenance looks a bit easier (unless you want the exact sweet spot all the time of course, which let's face it, the average Joe almost never has anyhow)
After what i've been through, i don't mind one bit using aromasin super low dose once or twice a week for as long as i need it. Hell it can even be cycled if ones body gets used to it etc. At the maintenance doses that are often necessary, the side effect profile appears zero, or at least at a point where you can't notice any.
I'm gunna give Res and Dim a miss, because -and i've mentioned this a few times - both appear fairly potent anti DHT's to me given their ingredients. It's not just me saying that. I've no doubt it's possible to recover while using them (cd did), but common sense tells me it is gunna be easier to avoid the more potent anti DHT compounds in one's diet when there is an easier, cheaper side effect free alternative. I continue to work hard on diet and lifestyle, so i'm not relying solely on this, it is just an important brick in the wall. Hopefully my plan will still hold water in 6 months!

[Jelisej]

It is impossible to give you an correct answer for your question as SHBG is a difficult hormone to deal with, inadequate levels of SHBG (low or high) always suggest that something is wrong, but it does not tell us what is wrong- there are lot of contributing factors that influence it and one of them is E2, so keeping E2 in check will improve things, but how much it depends on other factors (fT3 levels, insulin levels, growth hormone, androgen hormones, liver function).
At the moment only thing you can do is to continue improving your lifestyle and wait, monitor and then act accordingly.
It is just impossible to guess how your HPTA is going to react, there are lot of different scenarios both good and bad, we will see in future.
If things improve than you may consider Clomid restart, as that could help improve things further.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks entropy, i'm cracking on as advised, it is just nice to know if a longer time frame for SHBG going down is fairly typical as with the example i gave. Mindset is all important as you know, and it is helpful to feel that things can and are fairly likely to improve (if it is typical for E and SHBG to take a while to lower, even on AI's) Right now i'm virtually recovered mate, so knowing that it gets better over months before plateauing is pretty bloody exciting.
Long term, i've noticed many guys with E issues get by on super low doses of AI's, sometimes even 0.2mg of let once a week is enough. It appears that getting E and SHBG down first without crushing is the tricky bit, maintenance looks a bit easier (unless you want the exact sweet spot all the time of course, which let's face it, the average Joe almost never has anyhow)
After what i've been through, i don't mind one bit using aromasin super low dose once or twice a week for as long as i need it. Hell it can even be cycled if ones body gets used to it etc. At the maintenance doses that are often necessary, the side effect profile appears zero, or at least at a point where you can't notice any.
I'm gunna give Res and Dim a miss, because -and i've mentioned this a few times - both appear fairly potent anti DHT's to me given their ingredients. It's not just me saying that. I've no doubt it's possible to recover while using them (cd did), but common sense tells me it is gunna be easier to avoid the more potent anti DHT compounds in one's diet when there is an easier, cheaper side effect free alternative. I continue to work hard on diet and lifestyle, so i'm not relying solely on this, it is just an important brick in the wall. Hopefully my plan will still hold water in 6 months!

Res is NOT anti DHT

[entropy]

Res is NOT anti DHT

Agreed. I've been using it few weeks now and it definitely doesn't feel like there's anything remotely anti dht in there, I'm really enjoying it actually.

[Cdsnuts]

Weve gone over it several times but he seems to be stuck with that thought?

[English]

I do take on board your comments, and actually i am not 100% convinced either way with regards to whether Res is anti DHT or not, however i do see the logic in the argument that it is - to whatever extent - which i have seen made by multiple people on other sites.
My biggest motivator in not using it in favour of - eventually - aromasin, is the simple fact that i have used Res repeatedly and not been positively affected by it at all, whereas, i tried low dose anastrozole and i felt a big improvement.
Res might well not be anti DHT and i know it brings down E, but apparently not with me, or not enough with me. The fact that there is a coherent argument that it has anti DHT properties is secondary, but nonetheless, it is a factor in my decision making.
DIM looks to me to be certainly anti DHT, personally i wouldn't take that, however i respect the fact that CD got better while taking it.
I bare in mind in my decision making, the fact that some guys function brilliantly with balanced T and E, and DHT is just the cherry on the cake, but not necessary. The same was the case for me for the first 6 months on Fin, despite obvioulsy having 70% less DHT, i functioned brilliantly, it must have been the ever worsening E/T ratio that got me in the end, so in my head, logically, some guys may well recover with DIM etc. but that would be through the recovery of proper T and E ratios, not necessary through the re-establishment of DHT.
So if i can maximise DHT by avoiding things that may be anti DHT as well, at the same time as balancing T and E then logically recovery can come quicker and better.
I am by the way writing this in a very close to recovered state - touch wood!
None of this means i am not respectfull of your opinions on DIM and Res - you both may well be correct. I'm just hedging my bets using logic that's all. If there were no virtually side effect free cheap pharma AI's available that definitely don't touch DHT, i would be mainlining DIM and Res.
Having bloods drawn in two weeks, so we'll see what's happening then.

[Cdsnuts]

I do take on board your comments, and actually i am not 100% convinced either way with regards to whether Res is anti DHT or not, however i do see the logic in the argument that it is - to whatever extent - which i have seen made by multiple people on other sites.
My biggest motivator in not using it in favour of - eventually - aromasin, is the simple fact that i have used Res repeatedly and not been positively affected by it at all, whereas, i tried low dose anastrozole and i felt a big improvement.
Res might well not be anti DHT and i know it brings down E, but apparently not with me, or not enough with me. The fact that there is a coherent argument that it has anti DHT properties is secondary, but nonetheless, it is a factor in my decision making.
DIM looks to me to be certainly anti DHT, personally i wouldn't take that, however i respect the fact that CD got better while taking it.
I bare in mind in my decision making, the fact that some guys function brilliantly with balanced T and E, and DHT is just the cherry on the cake, but not necessary. The same was the case for me for the first 6 months on Fin, despite obvioulsy having 70% less DHT, i functioned brilliantly, it must have been the ever worsening E/T ratio that got me in the end, so in my head, logically, some guys may well recover with DIM etc. but that would be through the recovery of proper T and E ratios, not necessary through the re-establishment of DHT.
So if i can maximise DHT by avoiding things that may be anti DHT as well, at the same time as balancing T and E then logically recovery can come quicker and better.
I am by the way writing this in a very close to recovered state - touch wood!
None of this means i am not respectfull of your opinions on DIM and Res - you both may well be correct. I'm just hedging my bets using logic that's all. If there were no virtually side effect free cheap pharma AI's available that definitely don't touch DHT, i would be mainlining DIM and Res.
Having bloods drawn in two weeks, so we'll see what's happening then.

I felt awesome the first four or five months on finasteride. This was before I knew or cared about hormones, but was an effect of my skyrocketing Testosterone. And yes, it is the changing balance of T/E and the fact that you have no DHT to counter the E that ends up causing the hormonal crash in the end.

And please.. I'm in no way saying this because I think you're being disrespectful or anything of the sort. We're all big boys here. I'm just saying that I had positive experiences with Resveratrol products in keeping my E down to manageable levels and never did I experience the feeling of my DHT being squashed. We all intimately know what that feels like. DIM was just one of the things that I cycled and I wouldn't contribute anything to that one herb alone. If Res doesn't work for you and you find something that works better, then by all means, use what makes you feel the best. I was just gun shy of using anything pharmaceutical after my ordeal, that's all. If you're not, then keep doing what works.

No dogma here. This is a multifaceted issue and there is bound to be many avenues of relief if applied properly.

[Jelisej]

Resveratrol is not that reliable in lowering estrogen, it does work for some but for some people it does not work,
it certainly did not work for me. It did increase blood flow and I felt it was ok as a preworkout and erections were bit better, I was also bruised more easily.

Not sure on its effect on DHT, it seems that it interferes with some androgen receptors in prostate- but its overall effect on DHT is not researched properly.

[English]

Thanks for the replies, I have a habit in life of offending people by telling it how i see it so i was maybe being overcautious as i respect you guys.

I am putting on muscle fast at the moment so something must be right. Almost 14 stone (about 200Lb) and not much fat on me. I am starting to look good again which helps. Sexually i am regaining confidence and i haven't had ED for many months, sensitivity downstairs still shite, but that takes time right? The other thing that bugs me is i haven't had oily skin return. I would like that back alot- especially as pre-fin i would have to wash my face with soap twice a day to get rid of the grease, now i am using moisteriser every day. All in all though i am in miles better shape since starting on the AI.

I have a problem though:

OK, so i saw the doc this morning. A good one and he wants to help by prescribing me aromasin, but can't because the UK just don't do stuff like that, and my endo won't either, my original source for the AI i am currently on is now no good. It is clearly not helpful to buy it from websites i know nothing about, not least because i would have to re-start the whole dosing thing again and again. Hours of research reveal nothing but argument about the websites validity. Where the fuck does a complete beginner start?............ I might be taking this stuff for years, so i could do with minimising risk.

On a similar subject, should i be able to find a reliable source, does anyone know the comparative dosage for Aromasin versus Anastrozole? I am on 1mg a day of Anastrozole right now and i am feeling better each day, so i would want to start from the equivalent with Aromasin.

I need to make the switch fairly soon because historically i had total Cholesterol of 7.5 - I got it down to 5 through diet and exercise but then fin hit and i am now eating saturated fat for fun - fuck knows what the lipids will look like now.

If you guys can stand the questioning, here's another one for you - with a future that looks like aromasin for another year or more, and also a continuing diet of quality sat fats to keep T up, i could do with drinking the benecol yoghurts that contain the plant stanols etc.
Do these products have any kind of knock on affect with the things i am presently achieving? I am aware Cholestorol is converted to T so just checking.

(It was benecol and the cholestorol lowering spreads that originally helped me reduce it to 5 from 7.5)

Thanks guys for any help you can give me. I truly appreciate the support i have received thus far.

[Jelisej]

There is not that much cholesterol needed to build up hormones, in young guys very low cholesterol is usually caused by hyperthyroidsm and little bit high hypothyroidsm. Definitelly dont need more than 4.

As for AI, I dont think you'll needed for a year, or even if you do it will be modest dose. At some point with decent lifestyle and if you do "clomid restart" that could resensitise receptors and that could potentially solve the problem.

[English]

I appreciate that a great deal Jel, thank you.

Oh, and regards your comments on Clomid re-start, can you explain a bit more about the point of that. I will be shocked if my T is not somewhere between 22 and 28 as it was 19.9 last time without an AI. It was high SHBG causing my symptoms, via high E. So surely going on clomid would raise E2 again, thus raise SHBG further, which would mask any additional androgen from receptors - so how would they re-sensitise?

Would be good if i could get through this just via the AI - i put on a previous post that i read about a dude who's T went to over 50 when he took his E down to 25. I reckon T of 50 should be enough to re-sensitise right?!!! I actually read of another guy with virtually identical numbers since - both these guys post finasteride by the way, both recovered.

Happy to go clomid though if i can't replicate those 2 lucky dudes, and if you can give me some understanding of why it would help.

And i'll get back on the benecol then.

[Jelisej]

To understand why I think clomid may help, it would be best if you read this thread: Clomid For Men With Low Testosterone by Jeffrey Dach MD (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/779-clomid-men-low-testosterone-jeffrey-dach-md.html)

Some more info here: Clomid Nolva PCT (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/1955-clomid-nolva-pct.html)

If things go well than you may not need clomid restart, its just an additional option.

You are right that SHBG will go up on clomid, for time being, but it should sort itself out eventually.

[English]

To understand why I think clomid may help, it would be best if you read this thread: Clomid For Men With Low Testosterone by Jeffrey Dach MD (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/779-clomid-men-low-testosterone-jeffrey-dach-md.html)

Some more info here: Clomid Nolva PCT (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/1955-clomid-nolva-pct.html)

If things go well than you may not need clomid restart, its just an additional option.

You are right that SHBG will go up on clomid, for time being, but it should sort itself out eventually.

Thanks for that Jel, i did read those reports a while back when i was considering clomid as an option, in fact i read just about everything out there on clomid and nolva. The reason i didn't got with it is because there is a huge list of clomid failures on the Propecia Help forum with literally just a couple of successes from hundreds of attempts. Dr Shippen and co use this treatment successfully for almost all hypogonadal patients but from what i have read he hasn't scored a single successful treatment of a post fin patient, despite them queueing up at his door to be treated. (by successful i mean the patient feels better and can get off clomid and still feels better)

Post fin guys are complex cases - what can i say.

Anyway, i am not showing a hypogonadal profile anymore so i am extremely hopeful that just the AI will be enough. Slow and steady, consistent application of diet, exercise, mind control and hormone tweaking rather than tugging tend to win the race when it comes to post fin guys - No clue why, just the way it seems to be.
I wish there was a quicker way, but hey, shit happens.

[Jelisej]

I completely understand your reasoning.

Dont know effect on clomid on fina users, but my logic is that as clomid blocks estrogen receptors in brain, they become more sensitive to estrogen (somewhat)- if receptors are more sensitive to estrogen pituary acts quicker and stops producing estrogen- less sensitive receptors more chances of build up of estrogen, and when estrogen is high than one of mechanism of body is increasing SHBG as body is trying to hold on testosterone more and prevents from excessive aromatisation- wheter that would work for you is questionable, but my reasoning is same as with playing lottery- not much to lose.

And also- using AI to lower E2 and increase testosterone is not something to rely on long term, as typically people in that situation end up with both low testosterone and estrogen.
IMO, high level of aromatisation is symptom and not a cause, treat cause and symptoms should disappear.

[English]

OK, that's interesting. I am a bit confused now by the rules governing the sensitivity of AR's. After reading a study on rat penile tissue, which revealed that the higher the presence of DHT the more up-regulation of the AR occurred (which was opposite to the hypothosis the author was trying to prove!) I was under the impression that all receptors would up-regulate/sensitise is the presence of more of the androgen the particular AR is programmed to take- even though even to me this does seem counter intuitive.
If i recall correctly, CDSNUTS recovery by cycling pro hormones was based on this theory - though that was just one facet of his programme so no one can ever know whether that element was critical or not.
I'm open to using clomid in the future, but i just need to know for sure why i am doing something. Your explanation makes sense if it is correct for sure that the E receptor becomes more sensitive in the absence of E - this is certainly logical, but how do you know that? Is there a study or whatever demonstrating this?

What you are saying does also make logical sense when applied to a finasteride users issues. They take fin, their T rises (due to DHT being blocked), users often feel great for a while (i certainly did) then E rises. Meanwhile the AR's downregulate in the presence of additional T and E, causing ever more E to be produced (based on a desensitised Pituitary/hypothalmic E receptor action + no DHT present to reduce E), leading to very high SHBG and ultimate crash.

Almost all Fin users get high E symptoms at some point - Personally, i grew an enlarged left nipple! So it is fairly safe to say high E is the beginning of the issue.

So i do believe you are right, but like i say, i would love to know of any studies on this as i can only find the rat one which demonstrates the exact opposite (i appreciate rats aren't human!)

Finally, onto the long term use of AI resulting in low T and E - yeah i have read the results of the year long trials of an AI which resulted in T starting to fall around month 6 and continuing to do so until month 12 in all users. To be fair though end T levels were still at around 17 with a baseline of around 10/11 ish, so they were still way higher. This is why i think i can buck that trend:

1- I have noted that most AI users only need the higher doses for a short while - 8 weeks or so, then they can cut the dose to a fraction and maintain healthy E levels, which i plan to do.
2- The moment i have energy, i workout. The trials used obese and hypogonadal patients who were in that position for - most probably - reasons of diet and exercise, so it is no wonder their bodies couldn't persistently kick out higher T.
3- If you are correct regards the E receptor upregulating in the presence of less E, then i should be able wean off completely before the long term trend of lowering T kicks in - ie within a year.

I am looking for your comments on whether this all makes sense by the way! I am dangerous at the moment as i have a little knowledge!

If you tell me my plan makes sense, i will go for it for the next 12 months, and if i am still not where i need to be, then i will use clomid, provided you can point to some evidence that E receptors sensitise in the absence of E etc.

I really appreciate your help Jel. Having a plan is only any good for me when i both believe in it and understand why i am doing it, hence your explanations are very helpful.

[entropy]

That isn't actually strictly correct. DHT upregulated 5ar activity, I have the studies around here somewhere.

[Jelisej]

Your plan does make sense to me, with AI's receptors sensitivity should increase as well.

Most of the time down regulation happens when hormone levels are high- purpose is decreasing the number or affinity of receptors to reduce sensitivity of target tissue when hormone levels are chronically elevated.

And when hormone levels are low body responds in increasing the number or affinity of receptors so that tissue will still respond even if the hormone level is depressed .

But sometimes some hormones can upregulate its receptors as well- if I remeber correctly Growth hormone upregulates its receptors, not sure for DHT


And there is an interesting theory, called "receptor control theory"-
the receptor control theory postulates that our set points for regulating weight, energy, or pleasure are variable; they are directly related to the number, sensitivity and location of cellular receptors in our bodies, and can be modified by changing the number and sensitivity of these receptors.

[tallstraw]

Yeah GH does im pretty sure does. The longer you're on it the better it does for you. I've read that before too.

Actually I take it back. I think it's that it just doesn't down regulate...there's no suppression or change to your own natural production. So you get double benefits.

[nate3993]

Yeah GH does im pretty sure does. The longer you're on it the better it does for you. I've read that before too.

Actually I take it back. I think it's that it just doesn't down regulate...there's no suppression or change to your own natural production. So you get double benefits.

no, it'll make ur body not produce it anymore just like taking test stops your balls from making it.....it's jus to a much lower degree then steroids and your body can bounce back much quicker.

this I'm pretty sure of. feel free to correct if I'm wrong

[entropy]

OK, that's interesting. I am a bit confused now by the rules governing the sensitivity of AR's. After reading a study on rat penile tissue, which revealed that the higher the presence of DHT the more up-regulation of the AR occurred (which was opposite to the hypothosis the author was trying to prove!) I was under the impression that all receptors would up-regulate/sensitise is the presence of more of the androgen the particular AR is programmed to take- even though even to me this does seem counter intuitive.
If i recall correctly, CDSNUTS recovery by cycling pro hormones was based on this theory - though that was just one facet of his programme so no one can ever know whether that element was critical or not.
I'm open to using clomid in the future, but i just need to know for sure why i am doing something. Your explanation makes sense if it is correct for sure that the E receptor becomes more sensitive in the absence of E - this is certainly logical, but how do you know that? Is there a study or whatever demonstrating this?

What you are saying does also make logical sense when applied to a finasteride users issues. They take fin, their T rises (due to DHT being blocked), users often feel great for a while (i certainly did) then E rises. Meanwhile the AR's downregulate in the presence of additional T and E, causing ever more E to be produced (based on a desensitised Pituitary/hypothalmic E receptor action + no DHT present to reduce E), leading to very high SHBG and ultimate crash.

Almost all Fin users get high E symptoms at some point - Personally, i grew an enlarged left nipple! So it is fairly safe to say high E is the beginning of the issue.

So i do believe you are right, but like i say, i would love to know of any studies on this as i can only find the rat one which demonstrates the exact opposite (i appreciate rats aren't human!)

Finally, onto the long term use of AI resulting in low T and E - yeah i have read the results of the year long trials of an AI which resulted in T starting to fall around month 6 and continuing to do so until month 12 in all users. To be fair though end T levels were still at around 17 with a baseline of around 10/11 ish, so they were still way higher. This is why i think i can buck that trend:

1- I have noted that most AI users only need the higher doses for a short while - 8 weeks or so, then they can cut the dose to a fraction and maintain healthy E levels, which i plan to do.
2- The moment i have energy, i workout. The trials used obese and hypogonadal patients who were in that position for - most probably - reasons of diet and exercise, so it is no wonder their bodies couldn't persistently kick out higher T.
3- If you are correct regards the E receptor upregulating in the presence of less E, then i should be able wean off completely before the long term trend of lowering T kicks in - ie within a year.

I am looking for your comments on whether this all makes sense by the way! I am dangerous at the moment as i have a little knowledge!

If you tell me my plan makes sense, i will go for it for the next 12 months, and if i am still not where i need to be, then i will use clomid, provided you can point to some evidence that E receptors sensitise in the absence of E etc.

I really appreciate your help Jel. Having a plan is only any good for me when i both believe in it and understand why i am doing it, hence your explanations are very helpful.

So by that logic, suppression of dht via reductase would increase receptor concentration even though dht isn't the problem? Thus cessation of finasteride or other reductase inhibitors would restore the concentration of dht to normal except there's a tonne more receptors than needed? What kinda issues do you think that could cause, Jel?

[English]

I see what your getting at Entropy, logically - on finasteride, the absence of DHT and free T (given high E and SHBG concentrations) - receptors would have upregulated based on Jels comments. Upon cessation of the drug, the body is flooded with DHT and with heightened receptor sensitivity this would lead to the massive high and return of function which PFS guys speak of, which lasts just a day or 2, then they crash, which you would think would be the receptors burning out in some way.
Jel mentioned that GH can help upregulate receptors. That is good to hear because when i was tested my IGF/1 came back slightly high (just out of range) I guess that could explain why i am doing better than most maybe.

Would exercise, in particular HIIT and heavy weights + decent diet help increase receptor sensitivity? As recovery stories tend to include these things.

I get my bloods back today and will post later.

[English]

Oh and thanks entropy for clarifying that rat study, which does make more sense. Nice to not have that muddying the waters.

[English]

I have bloods back after being on AI for a month:
Testosterone: 27.9 Range (8-28) was 20
Free Test: 79 (35 to 90) was previously low in range
Estrogen: <18 (ie undetectable but could be anything under 18) Range (20 -50) This was 36 last time
SHBG: 35 (18 to 55) This was 51 so it is falling nicely
LH: 4.2
FSH: 3.6

So above looks good with exception to E, which i obviously need to raise to slightly above 18 (in order to get it detected) I don't think i have completely crushed E as i am functioning fine still, however i do think i am too low as i had a raging thirst that i could not get rid of for days.
Here's my plan and also my observations. I am writing these things to illicit comment in order to check i am on the correct path:

My observations on these results:
1- They confirm my HPTA is intact and working
2- SHBG must have been previously raised because of high E2 and low free androgen given it is now falling (as per Jels comments)
3- E is too low and needs to be detectable (as close to 20 as poss)

My plan
1- concerning SHBG, it is important i think for it to keep falling before i start raising E by much at all. I have noted it can take months for the final settled SHBG figure after free T is raised and E brought down. If i allow E to rise again too much now, then i will not have enough free T again if total T goes down a bit and SHBG rises a bit (which they almost certainly will), so i need to keep SHBG going down for a while until it gives me a buffer
2- So i plan to lower the AI dose from 1mg a day to 0.5mg EOD (hopefully this will be enough to keep E about the same or maybe slightly higher, but not lower it any more)
3- Re-test in a month.

[Jelisej]

So by that logic, suppression of dht via reductase would increase receptor concentration even though dht isn't the problem? Thus cessation of finasteride or other reductase inhibitors would restore the concentration of dht to normal except there's a tonne more receptors than needed? What kinda issues do you think that could cause, Jel?

Increased number of receptors should not pose problem, they would decrease over time.

[Jelisej]

I see what your getting at Entropy, logically - on finasteride, the absence of DHT and free T (given high E and SHBG concentrations) - receptors would have upregulated based on Jels comments. Upon cessation of the drug, the body is flooded with DHT and with heightened receptor sensitivity this would lead to the massive high and return of function which PFS guys speak of, which lasts just a day or 2, then they crash, which you would think would be the receptors burning out in some way.
Jel mentioned that GH can help upregulate receptors. That is good to hear because when i was tested my IGF/1 came back slightly high (just out of range) I guess that could explain why i am doing better than most maybe.

Would exercise, in particular HIIT and heavy weights + decent diet help increase receptor sensitivity? As recovery stories tend to include these things.

I get my bloods back today and will post later.

Exercise does increase receptor sensitvitiy, at least thats what some studies suggest.

Apart of receptors and hormones itself, another thing is signaling- and if signaling is not good than that would cause problems as well. But thats more scientific, and its bit out of my understanding, but I know that some of doctors say that if person is on cycle and shut for too long it leads to problems in signaling, and thats one of reasons why some doctors insist on maintaining hormonal pathways- for example when medicating thyroid they make sure that TSH is not zero.

[English]

Thanks for the reply.
Question concerning Androgen Receptors:
I currently have excellent free T yet i don't yet feel quite my old self, this is mirrored by a lot of ex fin guys who have excellent hormone profiles (after alot of work admittedly) and are still symptomatic of low androgen. Almost everyone postulates this is due to some downregulating of AR's, and logically this seems to be the case, so i am wondering A- how long do receptors take to upregulate/resensitise in the presence of normal androgen levels and a healthy body etc.? and B - Do AR's completely regenerate over time? Do they just grow and appear in the tissue as the tissue regenerates etc? Or do the same receptors sit around in the tissue upregulating or downregulating dependent on conditions?

I am obviously wondering what the general time frame is, in the presence of decent hormones for receptor activity and sensitivity to return to normal - months? Years?

Also, while we are here, are all androgen receptors built for a specific androgen like estrogen and estrogen only, or do some or all take all types etc? For example, i understand that androgen receptors need multiple hormone compounds to unlock the receptor, but then (for example) testosterone climbs in and works its magic. So using that example, can only testosterone climb in, or could another compound climb in and produce a different outcome specific to that hormone?

I appreciate your explanations Jel, as understanding it helps me to think - for example "OK i still don't feel great, but i know the AR's are regenerating over a period of months and years etc and so i am bound to feel better each year"
This helps to chill out and continue to have a good hormone profile etc.

Thanks again

[Jelisej]

I think this link will explain some thing about receptors/signalling/downregulation: Explain To Me: Receptor Upregulation/Downregulation | meandmymastcells (http://meandmymastcells.com/explain-to-me-receptor-upregulationdownregulation/)
Also this list may be helpful: List of human hormones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_hormones)

"Almost everyone postulates this is due to some downregulating of AR's"

You used right word: "postulates", and in reality we dont know what the exact problem is. Maybe is problem with signaling or somewhere else? Or combination of number of problems. I really dont know.

"are all androgen receptors built for a specific androgen like estrogen and estrogen only, or do some or all take all types etc?"
some hormones can act on different receptors, sometimes testosterone can mimic DHT and vice versa, T3 downregulates TRH receptors in the a/p which leads to decreased responsiveness of HPTA with chronically elevated T3 , progesterone can downregulate some estrogen receptors, prolactin upregulates some receptors in breast/nipples etc...



I think if you continue this path, there will be more improvement but how much- only time will tell. You should not worry too much as it does not help.

[English]

Thank you Jel, that improves my understanding alot.

I realised today that i feel bloody great, and last night my skin started getting oily again and has continued through today. Every symptom i had has now gone, all but a lack of sensitivity downstairs - which by the way, if you have an understanding of it, in terms of what creates that lack of sensitivity and how long it takes to return etc. (i am assuming lack of androgens created it and it will return over time) then i would appreciate your wisdom on the subject.

In Britain we have a saying that goes "one swallow does not make a summer" so i am not counting my chickens, however right now i feel great, am functioning fine, am back to my old weight, all of which muscle and i am properly laughing again at stuff.

I worked fucking hard for 16 months, and i got rid of alot of symptoms myself, but at the end of it all, i needed your wisdom which gave me the tools to balance the main male hormones.
Like i say, i may not be completely at the end of the road, but if not i am very close, so close it really doesn't matter, so i want to thank CDSNUTS for providing the inspiration on PH to move my ass into positive mode (i re-read the 25 pages of his measured and intelligent words about 5 times over during the real dark months) I want to thank Entropy for telling me to come to this site, and finally thank you Jelisej, you have helped a stranger with your unpaid time and intelligence when you really didn't need to and had no vested interest in doing so. My company is launching 2 sets of potentially industry changing software in the next 2 years, and if it becomes worth what is predicted, or anything close, i shall be getting back to you in order to repay my debt.

In the mean time i will still ask for guidance, but from now on i am a normal punter, just looking to improve myself, not looking to get out of a massive hole.

Am looking forward now more than ever to seeing my new baby (in 3 months) and bringing it up with my beautiful fiancee. Life is great again.

[English]

I think this link will explain some thing about receptors/signalling/downregulation: Explain To Me: Receptor Upregulation/Downregulation | meandmymastcells (http://meandmymastcells.com/explain-to-me-receptor-upregulationdownregulation/)
Also this list may be helpful: List of human hormones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_hormones)

"Almost everyone postulates this is due to some downregulating of AR's"

You used right word: "postulates", and in reality we dont know what the exact problem is. Maybe is problem with signaling or somewhere else? Or combination of number of problems. I really dont know.

"are all androgen receptors built for a specific androgen like estrogen and estrogen only, or do some or all take all types etc?"
some hormones can act on different receptors, sometimes testosterone can mimic DHT and vice versa, T3 downregulates TRH receptors in the a/p which leads to decreased responsiveness of HPTA with chronically elevated T3 , progesterone can downregulate some estrogen receptors, prolactin upregulates some receptors in breast/nipples etc...



I think if you continue this path, there will be more improvement but how much- only time will tell. You should not worry too much as it does not help.

One more query!!

After watching the clip, i understand the upregulation and downregulation process (fascinating by the way) but how long does this process take, or can take? So if (as in my case) i go from relatively low free androgen for 16 months to highish (over the last month) could it be that my receptors will downregulate in the presence of the suddenly increased androgen, returning me to my previous funk, or will the previous 38 years of normal or high androgen override this because it is maybe still written in my DNA, for cells to be receptive to normal or high levels?
I am assuming that because people often go from fat for years to fit and healthy (and stay fit and healthy) that there is no reason why receptors would downregulate just because androgen levels increase within normal ranges.
Perhaps i should be careful to keep from raising free T too high too quickly, as i am already at the high end - can't quite believe i am saying that.

[Cdsnuts]

Lack of sensitivity is a nerve issue (mainly) in my experience. Stay sober, keep on the holosync, keep on the diet, supps, etc and it will work itself out over TIME.

[English]

Lack of sensitivity is a nerve issue (mainly) in my experience. Stay sober, keep on the holosync, keep on the diet, supps, etc and it will work itself out over TIME.
Thanks for that CD, i've literally not had a single drink since you cautioned me not to maybe 2 months ago - and i will keep to the regime for life now, although i will start drinking occasionally again when sensitivity returns - I really miss getting proper pissed occasionally! Still loving the holosync.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks for that CD, i've literally not had a single drink since you cautioned me not to maybe 2 months ago - and i will keep to the regime for life now, although i will start drinking occasionally again when sensitivity returns - I really miss getting proper pissed occasionally! Still loving the holosync.

Who doesn't love getting proper pissed....lol. You will be able to again, just not now. And if you like the holosync now, wait till you go deeper. I just started awakening level one and am blown away. I can't imagine how good it's going to be in the levels even deeper.

[English]

Who doesn't love getting proper pissed....lol. You will be able to again, just not now. And if you like the holosync now, wait till you go deeper. I just started awakening level one and am blown away. I can't imagine how good it's going to be in the levels even deeper.

I know it will happen again, and i am so pleased at getting an enjoyable quality of life back that leaving drink behind for a few years is a tiny price to pay.

Yeah i'm looking forward to the AL1 but am waiting the 4 months suggested, so i will begin that 1st May. I also signed up to the sleep suite, which made sleep worse for the first 10 days or more, but now pretty reliably puts me to sleep within 40 minutes or so. I always wake up after it finishes or just before (it lasts 90 minutes) but at that point i have that groggy feeling that allows sleep to come easily again when you take the headphones off.

CD - when you recovered, or were at that point where you were all but recovered but could still remember the recent past when life was utterly painful, did you walk around slightly fearful of going backwards all the time? There's almost nothing wrong with now at all but i think because i am now programmed to constantly worry about something, and scan my body and feelings all the time, now that there is really nothing significant to look at or worry about, my mind has quickly reverted to being concerned about going backwards, and thinking of lots of reasons why i could go backwards.
I know that is daft, and i know why i am doing it but want to stop doing it.
I know Holosync will continue to help in that regard along with all the other stuff we have discussed, which i continue to do, as well as time.
But did you experience the same thing?

[Cdsnuts]

I know it will happen again, and i am so pleased at getting an enjoyable quality of life back that leaving drink behind for a few years is a tiny price to pay.

Yeah i'm looking forward to the AL1 but am waiting the 4 months suggested, so i will begin that 1st May. I also signed up to the sleep suite, which made sleep worse for the first 10 days or more, but now pretty reliably puts me to sleep within 40 minutes or so. I always wake up after it finishes or just before (it lasts 90 minutes) but at that point i have that groggy feeling that allows sleep to come easily again when you take the headphones off.

CD - when you recovered, or were at that point where you were all but recovered but could still remember the recent past when life was utterly painful, did you walk around slightly fearful of going backwards all the time? There's almost nothing wrong with now at all but i think because i am now programmed to constantly worry about something, and scan my body and feelings all the time, now that there is really nothing significant to look at or worry about, my mind has quickly reverted to being concerned about going backwards, and thinking of lots of reasons why i could go backwards.
I know that is daft, and i know why i am doing it but want to stop doing it.
I know Holosync will continue to help in that regard along with all the other stuff we have discussed, which i continue to do, as well as time.
But did you experience the same thing?

No. My recovery came very, very slowly over the course of years in incremental bits and pieces. I didn't have a blue print obviously, so there was a ton of trial and error. But because of the slow progress, everytime I got to a "new normal" I knew it was permanent. It felt permanent. I would stay there for awhile and then break into another level of healing, peeling off another layer of the onion so to speak, moving into another new normal. I made slow and steady progress like this until I made my recovery post. I did have three steps forward one step back experiences, but the general trend was always moving towards healing, so it didn't bother me because I knew it was just the ebb and flow of the healing process. I could see how someone who had a very quick up swing in healing and went from shot out to somewhat normal quickly could have these worries though. Simply because the way you were was so recent, so fresh in your mind. It took me so long to heal that by time I was done, most of those horrible thoughts of the hell I was in were a thing of the past. I was glad for this.

That being said though, I always kept a positive attitude. I don't know why given the circumstances, but I just KNEW I was going to beat it. I knew I was going to get better. There was nothing else on my mind but this. You need to just stay present. In the here and now, and don't think of the what ifs. Enjoy the way you are now. Don't think of how you were. There is no need to bring that past into your present. This is typically a good way to be with everything in life. The only thing any of us have is this moment.....right now. The past is done and the future isn't here yet. And when the future is here, it will be the present. Just keep doing what your doing in this moment now, and you will continue to go where you want.

And as you know, holosync is so good for this. I didn't have it when I was doing the bulk of my healing but most of those guys on that forum would have just dismissed it as new age tree hugging hippie shit. It's these same guys who are still miserable because they don't understand the power of their own minds. I know you do.

And btw, I continue to be amazed at the way I feel. I thought when I made that post, almost a year and a half ago, that I had arrived. I can tell you that I feel ten times better now then I did then. This isn't a regimen anymore, it's just a way of life. One I could not imagine living any other way. Just keep on it my man. You'll get there.

[entropy]

I took the shit for an awfully long time, I've been totally off for nearly six months now after using it on and off for seven years thinking it was harmless. I'm very familiar with the way cdnuts describes this whole process. Right now I feel better than I ever remember feeling.. Ever. And it just keeps getting better and better. I have bad days still for sure but less and less as time goes by. Its very exciting wondering where I'll be in a year or two from now.

As weird as it sounds, it reminds me of puberty.

If you do fall back English, take it in your stride. We've spent a long time exchanging emails and talking and I genuinely believe we both have the thing CD has that sets us apart from those guys.

[English]

No. My recovery came very, very slowly over the course of years in incremental bits and pieces. I didn't have a blue print obviously, so there was a ton of trial and error. But because of the slow progress, everytime I got to a "new normal" I knew it was permanent. It felt permanent. I would stay there for awhile and then break into another level of healing, peeling off another layer of the onion so to speak, moving into another new normal. I made slow and steady progress like this until I made my recovery post. I did have three steps forward one step back experiences, but the general trend was always moving towards healing, so it didn't bother me because I knew it was just the ebb and flow of the healing process. I could see how someone who had a very quick up swing in healing and went from shot out to somewhat normal quickly could have these worries though. Simply because the way you were was so recent, so fresh in your mind. It took me so long to heal that by time I was done, most of those horrible thoughts of the hell I was in were a thing of the past. I was glad for this.

That being said though, I always kept a positive attitude. I don't know why given the circumstances, but I just KNEW I was going to beat it. I knew I was going to get better. There was nothing else on my mind but this. You need to just stay present. In the here and now, and don't think of the what ifs. Enjoy the way you are now. Don't think of how you were. There is no need to bring that past into your present. This is typically a good way to be with everything in life. The only thing any of us have is this moment.....right now. The past is done and the future isn't here yet. And when the future is here, it will be the present. Just keep doing what your doing in this moment now, and you will continue to go where you want.

And as you know, holosync is so good for this. I didn't have it when I was doing the bulk of my healing but most of those guys on that forum would have just dismissed it as new age tree hugging hippie shit. It's these same guys who are still miserable because they don't understand the power of their own minds. I know you do.

And btw, I continue to be amazed at the way I feel. I thought when I made that post, almost a year and a half ago, that I had arrived. I can tell you that I feel ten times better now then I did then. This isn't a regimen anymore, it's just a way of life. One I could not imagine living any other way. Just keep on it my man. You'll get there.

That's a great reply cd, thank you. In general my healing has been incremental up to the point when i took the AI, which pushed things over the edge somewhat - i appreciate though that you were not feeling good for at least 3 or 4 years. I still want to feel much better though, even though i have to admit that when viewing the average 40 yr old, i am presently more able and more alive than they, hence my earlier post.
It is great to hear how much better you continue to feel, as that clearly shows that whatever receptor issue is at play, they can continue to be sensitised and equilibriums raised.
For me the real steps forward came when i realised i had the choice over whether i was going to be happy that day. I agree with you to keep my mind in the present, although i find future projections of an extremely happy and healthy me to be helpful and positive. I work hard every day to keep moving my mind off all the what if's.
Do you continue to cycle the prohormones? Do you credit this continued cycling with your increasing sense of health and vitality?
And, do you reckon i should do the planned cycling too with the AH i got from you?
I will value your opinion on this, but i know doing such things always carries some inherent risk and it will ultimately be my responsibility etc. so if you can just give me your call on it so i can take that into account.
I don't want to feel like an average 40 yr old for much longer, despite the fact that i am grateful of it right now!

[English]

I took the shit for an awfully long time, I've been totally off for nearly six months now after using it on and off for seven years thinking it was harmless. I'm very familiar with the way cdnuts describes this whole process. Right now I feel better than I ever remember feeling.. Ever. And it just keeps getting better and better. I have bad days still for sure but less and less as time goes by. Its very exciting wondering where I'll be in a year or two from now.

As weird as it sounds, it reminds me of puberty.

If you do fall back English, take it in your stride. We've spent a long time exchanging emails and talking and I genuinely believe we both have the thing CD has that sets us apart from those guys.

Thanks Entropy, yeah i have days where i feel better than ever too, and they always coincide with successfully deciding to be happy and content that day - if that makes sense - so much of this is mental.
I reckon we are the 1% (or whatever it is) too. You have to believe that i think. I used to be pretty arrogant though and it has always been inbuilt in me to think i am better than everyone else and can achieve anything. That is fucking helpful now, although i am happy to say that the arrogance has gone and i am a different person now- will always be so, yet i do still believe i can achieve anything.
I'm still feeling good by the way, i've swopped 1mg ED of anastrozole to 12.5mg of aromasin EOD, so i am literally taking around a quarter of the previous dose of AI, and of course aromsin doesn't fuck with your GH or lipid levels, so hopefully i will be even better on that - time will tell.
I've booked blood tests every month for another 3 months, and provided i have E at around 20, i'll cut back to 6 monthly tests.
Great to hear you are also doing so well, we should both be able to say we are fully recovered by xmas i hope.

[strykers12]

hi everyone. my name is alex. after speaking with entropy and with english's blessing, i will make my introductory post in this thread. i am also a sufferer from an adverse drug reaction. i have been in a deep dark hell for many months and have self pitied and unhealthily obsessed over my condition and bad luck. after experiencing small moments of my old life, i've realized how far i have fallen. its time for me to save myself because no one else can. below is a thread of my journey. i am not sure how often i will post because the road of life is long. the methods are out there. you just have to walk the path. thank you.

Stryker's life log (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/personal-training-logs/2601-strykers-life-log.html#post44454)

[English]

hi everyone. my name is alex. after speaking with entropy and with english's blessing, i will make my introductory post in this thread. i am also a sufferer from an adverse drug reaction. i have been in a deep dark hell for many months and have self pitied and unhealthily obsessed over my condition and bad luck. after experiencing small moments of my old life, i've realized how far i have fallen. its time for me to save myself because no one else can. below is a thread of my journey. i am not sure how often i will post because the road of life is long. the methods are out there. you just have to walk the path. thank you.

Stryker's life log (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/personal-training-logs/2601-strykers-life-log.html#post44454)

Hi Strykers,
Welcome to the board - Your opening is very deep and i kinda recognise that headspace when i was in it - look, don't worry man, this is temporary stuff for guys with grey matter and determination and the right support.
I've no doubt that CDSNUTS, and Entropy, as well as myself, will give you the necessary support and you'll be back to life within 12 months - not fully recovered probably, but you will be 70% and feeling good again.
Guys on here like Jelisej are far better than endos i have seen regards hormones - you are in pretty safe hands.
I will leave you on this note before viewing your thread: CD decided to recover, and he recovered, Entropy and i also decided to, we copied much of what CD did, and we are all but recovered - this shows that the overwhelming odds are that if you want to recover, you can.

[English]

I got back my bloods earlier and as always am interested in any comments:

T = 24.3 (8 to 28)
E = 43 nmol/L
SHBG = 36
LH = 3.7
FSH = 2.7
Free androgen index = 67 (35 to 92)

This is a month after i halved the dose of AI to just 12.5 mg twice a week of aromasin.

It's interesting that E has risen to 43 which is the highest i have ever tested. I am pleased with that because it is in nmol/L which is a healthy level with T at a good level also. I'm slightly disappointed that SHGB has not gone further down, but i suppose i should be pleased it has not risen despite E rising from undetectable last time.

Basically, it looks like i achieved what i set out to do, which was break the deadlock of very high SHBG which rose every time E did, probably due to a lack of free androgen to keep it in check. It required me to crush estrogen for a month and then halve the AI. Interesting results i think.

My plan going forward:

I have just started a 4 week cycle of Alpha Hard for 4 weeks on it's own, then PCT without AI for 2 weeks, then final 2 weeks of PCT with 25mg AI ED for a week (this will crush E and shoot T up to 28/30 ish) then no AI at all for a week which will raise E and desensitise E receptors a little, then down to 6.5 mg AI twice a week for a month, but backed up with 2ml Res 100 on the same days as AI.
Then test bloods. Providing results are good, i will start again on AH and continue cycle, but always lowering dose of AI until off it completely.

My thinking here is that i want E to be higher and higher occasionally as if you don't do that then E receptors will sensitise more and more so AI will be dropping E without raising T (over time). This result can be seen in all the long term AI studies which always show long term E lowering ends up with lower T and low or undetectable E - ie leaves you worse off than before.

So, all and any comments most welcome, as i am by no means an expert on this, and as always i wish to refine my plans whenever a better argument is put forward, however i am clearly largely on the right track as my bloods now look very normal to me, for 15 months they were bad - real bad!!

[Cdsnuts]

Let us know how you feel on this run.....

[English]

Let us know how you feel on this run.....

2 days in and i feel mentally sharper and i wasn't as tired last night as i normally am (i usually feel a bit fatigued from 7pm onwards), i don't have the fatigue i felt on IML's epiandro (that was all day). Other indicators like MW etc and libido unchanged at present.

Question: By what mechanism do the DHT prohormones cause suppression? I appreciate they are anabolic and they mimic testosterone so they will affect the negative feedback loop, but shouldn't suppression be minimal given that the feedback loop mostly uses E to determine how much LH to kick out, and additional DHT should reduce E?
At 6 tabs a day, is that a great deal of DHT we putting into the system? - enough to cause suppression over time?

Am i missing something? It seems to me that it shouldn't cause much suppression at all, yet i read that it does over time, hence the cycling.

Just interested.

Also, i could do with knowing how long it takes for estrogen to return to standard levels after the cessation of exemestane (half life 24hrs) - Yes i know the drug will be out of ones system after 4 or 5 days, but because it is suicidal, the aromatase enzymes will take time to re-populate and produce E again - but how much time? days? weeks?

I would really appreciate the answer to that question as i want to raise E as high as possible each time following cessation of AI before restarting AI at lower dose (my reasoning in earlier post)

[Cdsnuts]

It will cause minimal suppression. As a matter of fact I felt as if I didn't even need a pct after running that product. Definitely do your pct, I'm just sayin. Also that product in particular is dosed rather low compared to others. (Androhards)

Any kind of exogenous hormone will cause some sort of suppression.

Maybe someone with more indepth knowledge can answer your other questions.

[entropy]

I haven't really heard of anyone dealing with suppression from dht prohormones and I've read pretty much every log, thread and discussion I can find on the internet.

Guess I should chime in, running androhard v3 at 4 caps a day ATM. Works out about 800mg a day of actives I believe. Five days in so not much to report yet

[English]

I haven't really heard of anyone dealing with suppression from dht prohormones and I've read pretty much every log, thread and discussion I can find on the internet.

Guess I should chime in, running androhard v3 at 4 caps a day ATM. Works out about 800mg a day of actives I believe. Five days in so not much to report yet

800mg of actives means nothing to me - is that alot? What is it in comparison to normal DHT levels? Also, you say five days in so not much to report - what do reckon it takes more than 5 days to kick in and make you feel it then? I thought any effects would happen hours after taking it. I am definitely feeling much sharper in the mind, i thought i had totally kicked the brain fog, but it seems i got used to it to a degree as i am feeling all clever again now!!

Regards my question on estrogen, Jelisej is the man i reckon - where's he gone?- bloody Serbians!! - Hey that's a joke by the way Jel, i very much want to keep you on my side!

[English]

It will cause minimal suppression. As a matter of fact I felt as if I didn't even need a pct after running that product. Definitely do your pct, I'm just sayin. Also that product in particular is dosed rather low compared to others. (Androhards)

Any kind of exogenous hormone will cause some sort of suppression.

Maybe someone with more indepth knowledge can answer your other questions.

Well that's music to my ears as i am enjoying feeling sharper yet i can't help worrying about suppression.

CD, when you take the pro-hormones, do you keep cycling the T boosters?

[English]

Hey guys, one more question on DHT prohormones - If they're not particularly suppressive, is it not OK to take a third of the dose permanently? That would be a very low dose but would supplement natural DHT levels nicely, and i think i am right in saying that supplementing DHT only increases natural conversion from T to DHT.
I imagine the answer is no otherwise everyone would be doing it, but why not?

[Cdsnuts]

Well that's music to my ears as i am enjoying feeling sharper yet i can't help worrying about suppression.

CD, when you take the pro-hormones, do you keep cycling the T boosters?

No!! When you're taking exogenous hormones it doesn't make sense to use the T boosters. Stop them. And really, you shouldn't worry about suppression on your cycle. To put it in perspective, All six tabs of Alpha hard only comes to around 300mg of actives compared to the 800 plus for AH.

You're going to:

Cycle
PCT
T booster regimen.
Rinse and repeat.

[Cdsnuts]

800mg of actives means nothing to me - is that alot? What is it in comparison to normal DHT levels? Also, you say five days in so not much to report - what do reckon it takes more than 5 days to kick in and make you feel it then? I thought any effects would happen hours after taking it. I am definitely feeling much sharper in the mind, i thought i had totally kicked the brain fog, but it seems i got used to it to a degree as i am feeling all clever again now!!

Regards my question on estrogen, Jelisej is the man i reckon - where's he gone?- bloody Serbians!! - Hey that's a joke by the way Jel, i very much want to keep you on my side!

I always felt the hormones within HOURS of taking them. Unfortunately like some others I've helped, usually when they don't feel the boost that you and I felt it means they typically don't respond for some reason.

[Cdsnuts]

Hey guys, one more question on DHT prohormones - If they're not particularly suppressive, is it not OK to take a third of the dose permanently? That would be a very low dose but would supplement natural DHT levels nicely, and i think i am right in saying that supplementing DHT only increases natural conversion from T to DHT.
I imagine the answer is no otherwise everyone would be doing it, but why not?

I've run half the dose of AHv3 for four months straight at one point and when I came off I could have easily went without a PCT. I always feel it's in your best interest to do the PCT for a variety of reasons. For me though, I loved the way I felt on PCT. The extra boost is always nice and it helps to bring your system back to a nice high set point.

[entropy]

I always felt the hormones within HOURS of taking them. Unfortunately like some others I've helped, usually when they don't feel the boost that you and I felt it means they typically don't respond for some reason.

Just to clarify, I felt "mental" effects from v3 from the first dose, I just feel its not really peaked yet. Its better everyday.

[Jelisej]

800mg of actives means nothing to me - is that alot? What is it in comparison to normal DHT levels? Also, you say five days in so not much to report - what do reckon it takes more than 5 days to kick in and make you feel it then?
Regards my question on estrogen, Jelisej is the man i reckon - where's he gone?- bloody Serbians!! - Hey that's a joke by the way Jel, i very much want to keep you on my side!

Unfortunately, I cannot answer to your question as I dont know enough about any of the prohormones, and I dont like them either and one of the reasons is that things like "800 mg of actives" dont mean anything to me- how much 100 mg or 800 mg will raise DHT levels and how much supression there will be? Your guess is as good as mine, and on top of that not sure if effect is the same on average Joe and on someone who used fina? I really dont know...

What I can tell you is that DHT is supressive, and it depends not just on dosage but also from person to person- I've seen bloodworks with proviron and 25 mg was very mild on some people and mild-to-moderate on others, I think most common effect is that in people with low testosterone levels get less supression than those with higher levels.

From personal experience- I used proviron and masteron- proviron at 25 mg and I did not feel that my HPTA was completely shut, recovery was swift, reason why I used proviron was I had gyno (as result of high E2) and it help to shrink gyno but otherwise other benefits were either insignificant or non-existent.

With masteron was different story- benefits were much more prounounced in every aspect but also sides effect were notable (big time night sweats, hairloss) and HPTA recovery was quite slow- while on proviron I was completely back on track after week with OTC with masteron with proper PCT it took 4 or 5 weeks, cannot remember exact time and details.
Anyway- you did get point of what I was sayin'- it depends from potency of what are you using.

My personal advice if you going to use than use stuff that is well tested, maybe to try andractim? At least that way you can roughly tell how much you are taking.

As for cycle-PCT-cyle-PCT in my honest opinion, that is nonsense- maybe once or two cycles, after that -either you go natural or you go HRT, because from my experiences more cycles results in lower testosterone levels. Lot of people will disagree with me, but AFAIK there are not many people who done lot of cycles that are OK with their natural hormone levels.

Anyway, regarding cycle-pct- this is my formula: (time on cycle+ PCT) X 2= time off
there is older bb formula which says: time on cycle=PCT; time on cycle+ PCt= time off

[Jelisej]

Just to clarify, I felt "mental" effects from v3 from the first dose, I just feel its not really peaked yet. Its better everyday.

The effect (among other stuff) depends on active/half life- for example if one uses testosterone suspension he will feel effect after few hours, if using test propionate it will be day or two... etc or if one is using T3 he can feel effect in few hours, but if one is using T4 because of long half life it takes few weeks to reach stable lasma levels and "feel"- when starting T4 people do blood test after 4-5 weeks, while on T3 usally it clears off in less than half a day.
And most of DHT based PHS have a relatively short active life so effect can be felt quite fast, and short half life is probably one of reason why shutdown is not as bad as with lot of other stuff.

[English]

No!! When you're taking exogenous hormones it doesn't make sense to use the T boosters. Stop them. And really, you shouldn't worry about suppression on your cycle. To put it in perspective, All six tabs of Alpha hard only comes to around 300mg of actives compared to the 800 plus for AH.

You're going to:

Cycle
PCT
T booster regimen.
Rinse and repeat.

Thanks for that, I had stopped the T boosters and was doing it right, just checking as it's been a very long time since reading what you did, and to be honest, i don't want to go back to PH to refresh etc.

[English]

I've run half the dose of AHv3 for four months straight at one point and when I came off I could have easily went without a PCT. I always feel it's in your best interest to do the PCT for a variety of reasons. For me though, I loved the way I felt on PCT. The extra boost is always nice and it helps to bring your system back to a nice high set point.

OK good, that makes sense. Clearly at 300mg of actives i should not worry at all about it then. I will do the PCT as my currently high T levels have only been the case for 2 months, not long enough to bed in yet so i will not be taking any chances.

[English]

Unfortunately, I cannot answer to your question as I dont know enough about any of the prohormones, and I dont like them either and one of the reasons is that things like "800 mg of actives" dont mean anything to me- how much 100 mg or 800 mg will raise DHT levels and how much supression there will be? Your guess is as good as mine, and on top of that not sure if effect is the same on average Joe and on someone who used fina? I really dont know...

What I can tell you is that DHT is supressive, and it depends not just on dosage but also from person to person- I've seen bloodworks with proviron and 25 mg was very mild on some people and mild-to-moderate on others, I think most common effect is that in people with low testosterone levels get less supression than those with higher levels.

From personal experience- I used proviron and masteron- proviron at 25 mg and I did not feel that my HPTA was completely shut, recovery was swift, reason why I used proviron was I had gyno (as result of high E2) and it help to shrink gyno but otherwise other benefits were either insignificant or non-existent.

With masteron was different story- benefits were much more prounounced in every aspect but also sides effect were notable (big time night sweats, hairloss) and HPTA recovery was quite slow- while on proviron I was completely back on track after week with OTC with masteron with proper PCT it took 4 or 5 weeks, cannot remember exact time and details.
Anyway- you did get point of what I was sayin'- it depends from potency of what are you using.

My personal advice if you going to use than use stuff that is well tested, maybe to try andractim? At least that way you can roughly tell how much you are taking.

As for cycle-PCT-cyle-PCT in my honest opinion, that is nonsense- maybe once or two cycles, after that -either you go natural or you go HRT, because from my experiences more cycles results in lower testosterone levels. Lot of people will disagree with me, but AFAIK there are not many people who done lot of cycles that are OK with their natural hormone levels.

Anyway, regarding cycle-pct- this is my formula: (time on cycle+ PCT) X 2= time off
there is older bb formula which says: time on cycle=PCT; time on cycle+ PCt= time off

Thank you Jel, i agree that the point of PCT is to get yourself back on track naturally. The point of the post fin guys doing this is based on cd's recovery and the studies that show the presence of additional DHT promotes greater AR5 activity (ie upregulates own DHT production) - something like that anyway.
This is my first cycle and i can feel the benefits for sure even on this low dose and i am only doing it for 4 weeks. I will take at least twice the time off after PCT as i have plenty of time on my hands now.

[English]

The effect (among other stuff) depends on active/half life- for example if one uses testosterone suspension he will feel effect after few hours, if using test propionate it will be day or two... etc or if one is using T3 he can feel effect in few hours, but if one is using T4 because of long half life it takes few weeks to reach stable lasma levels and "feel"- when starting T4 people do blood test after 4-5 weeks, while on T3 usally it clears off in less than half a day.
And most of DHT based PHS have a relatively short active life so effect can be felt quite fast, and short half life is probably one of reason why shutdown is not as bad as with lot of other stuff.

Understood, Jel, do you know the answer to my question on Estrogen following cessation of exemestane? How long does it take for E levels to recover? I know the half life is 24hrs for the drug, but with it being suicidal obviously the aromatase enzymes will need time to rebuild and produce E - but how long does it take for E to spike following cessation? I am guessing a week to 10 days?

[Jelisej]

Understood, Jel, do you know the answer to my question on Estrogen following cessation of exemestane? How long does it take for E levels to recover? I know the half life is 24hrs for the drug, but with it being suicidal obviously the aromatase enzymes will need time to rebuild and produce E - but how long does it take for E to spike following cessation? I am guessing a week to 10 days?

Around 5 days to week to get back to normal levels as exemestane has short half life. Question how far, and quick will E2 go depends from lot of factors, but there is nor rebound effect. So you may be back to same story as before or there may be some improvement.

[English]

Around 5 days to week to get back to normal levels as exemestane has short half life. Question how far, and quick will E2 go depends from lot of factors, but there is nor rebound effect. So you may be back to same story as before or there may be some improvement.

OK, thanks for that Jel, I suppose the rebound effect people talk about with other AI's is due to the fact they are not suicidal, so when you quit a non suicidal AI, the moment the majority is out of the system, the spiked T levels aromatase creating the rebound, whereas with a suicidal AI your body has to create new aromatase enzymes so that would graduate the response - that's my guess anyway.

By the way - regards your previous comments on Masteron/Proviron etc. - I agree with what you say, the trouble is i am not good at taking meds/pharma. It stresses me out and in doing so causes more harm than good. It took me months to get used to the idea of doing a cycle of pro hormones and now i am on them, even if the dose is just lucky, i guess it doesn't matter much because i have felt an improvement and i am pretty sure i am not shutting down. So i am going to keep it simple and stick with an occasional cycle of Alpha Hard/Andro Hard V3 - keeping at least double the time off in between.
I already have some level of belief in doing this as CD recovered doing it, and from what i've learned so far, belief is half the battle.

So after this cycle i'm gunna do a natty PCT including one week of fairly high dose non-suicidal AI, then nothing for a week (allowing E to spike) then down to the lowest dose yet of 6.5mg twice a week aromasin for 3 months. This will mirror what i did last time that resulted in excellent bloods. I will probably then do another pro hormone cycle which gives my body time off the AI to reset etc.
Providing bloods hold, on my 3rd cycle of AI, i will replace it with 2mg Res100 every other day and 3mg aromasin twice a week - Res 100 didn't do anything for me previously however i have been training harder recently and i'm putting on muscle fairly easily now, so with muscle up and fat down it might make the subtle difference i need - i will try anyway.
Thanks again Jel. I have my plan for the next 6 months or so - hopefully it will work as well as the last 3.

[English]

Hey everyone - meaning CD, Entropy and Jel, I just want to say thanks again for the great support you have given me, i continue to do well and am much better for the support i have had here. By the way CD i am on the next stage of Holosync now ( a couple of weeks early ) but the old stage got to the point where it wasn't doing anything for me. The level one is great, and i love the idea of the positive affirmations (inaudible) being on a loop, it really helps alot - even if just the placebo of thinking i am getting postive shit drummed into me for hours a day - I did feel a little silly recording stuff down the phone for 5 minutes though! I also hope the sound engineers don't get bored and re-record all your affirmations in reverse! - "I am a tit" "I am doomed"..........!!!
I went on a tangent there, but seriously, if anyone out there is struggling mentally for any reason - try Holosync from centrepoint. A good spot from CD.

Anyway, thanks guys, i won't be updating so much now as i have a shit load of stuff to do - time to kid T-2months - but i'll be back to update blood results, which i'll be getting every 2 months (if they hold for another 3 times they will be the last ones)

[Cdsnuts]

Good luck with the little one English.

[entropy]

Damn man. Time goes so fast, it doesn't feel like all that long ago that you helped inspire me out of that hole and you're two months away from being a Dad. Congrats again bro and congrats for everything else. I've not once seen you complain.

[Jelisej]

Congratuation my English bro'!
All the best!

[English]

Damn man. Time goes so fast, it doesn't feel like all that long ago that you helped inspire me out of that hole and you're two months away from being a Dad. Congrats again bro and congrats for everything else. I've not once seen you complain.

I know, and dealing with the shit we have been dealing with, if you get down on yourself too long you can look back and realise that too much has slipped by without using any of it. I was a boy soldier at 16 and the army taught me never to complain - simply no point in it, not for yourself or anyone else. I noted CD had that kind of mindset too which is why i used his words to help me quite alot. You clearly have the same thing going on as i only ever read positive stuff from you - it's no coincidence we three are recovered/almost recovered, we might even have found a cure for it (ie the cure is in your head)
Anyway, i'll be back lots, just not as often, and for the first time i don't really have any more questions about hormones etc thanks to you guys, so i think it's time to just crack on with the plan and live life.

[Cdsnuts]

In regards to your holosync practice, I've found a way to step up the results a bit.

Check out lions mane mushroom from Superman herbs. I've been taking a teaspoon of this in hot water 30-45 minutes prior to my sessions. Juat another way to kick things up a notch.

[English]

In regards to your holosync practice, I've found a way to step up the results a bit.

Check out lions mane mushroom from Superman herbs. I've been taking a teaspoon of this in hot water 30-45 minutes prior to my sessions. Juat another way to kick things up a notch.

Thanks for that CD, i will definitely check that out tomorrow

[strykers12]

congrats english

[English]

congrats english

Thanks strykers, how you doing?

[strykers12]

i have come a long way mentally.

[English]

i have come a long way mentally.

Good, you will follow physically but it takes time and alot of it. If you stay strong mentally and live healthily, you will recover, but probably only by one or two percent a month, so slowly that it is barely perceptible. Knowing this makes the mental recovery easier, otherwise you would have one bad day or week and think you are getting nowhere, but you are, you just don't realise it until you have been mentally positive and doing the right things for 6 months, then you look back and think "shit, i have improved!"
Also, for me, i kept thinking - and keep thinking - that i'm mentally recovered, because i keep reaching mental milestones where i realise i am worrying less or my unconscious anxiety is diminished or i am thinking more clearly than before. Then i spend some time at this new level of mental awareness and it dawns on me i still have some way to go, and then i get there, and so on, ie improving all the time. One day i will truly know i am fully recovered when mentally i realise i don't need to go further.
But each time you get further on mentally, your body seems to respond, albeit a few months behind maybe, but be in no doubt, your body does follow your mind, if of course you live healthily and give it a chance.
Your goal (and i have literally only just started achieving this myself) is to spend entire days doing nothing but living like you always used to (except replacing damaging practices with healthy ones) That means totally ignoring a bad nights sleep just like you used to, get up, go to work, chat, walk, go home again ya da ya da, the point i'm making is that there is nothing wrong with you, live exactly like there isn't. If you don't make a bid deal of this then your body won't either.
Hopefully you get what i am trying to explain, it is hard to explain simply because it took me along time to comprehend and even longer to actually achieve, yet it is the easiest thing in the world when you do it. Leave worry behind and simply live, in the certain knowledge that you are getting healthier each month. Feel bad? So what, get on with it. Can't get it up? So what, you will do.
Keep going with the mental stuff, get yourself on Holosync as it is a wonderful diversion and escape even if you think it is treehugger stuff.
When you feel sufficiently good mentally, then write up what you are doing on your log, let us see what you are doing and how you are feeling, then get some bloods done as sometimes there is an easy fix (for bloods) that can step you up quickly to the next level of recovery. Some people even recover 100% from a quick blood fix, but they never do until they are mentally right.
So keep going, you've took the first step if you believe you are mentally improved, but you might have to reach a number of additional step ups mentally before your body follows - but it will.
2 things you must do at this stage of your recover imo - Holosync and read "mind over medicine" by Lisa Rankin MD.

[5 alpha victim]

I have been following this thread and I have had the same adverse reaction to the same type of drug you guys have had. There is tons of useful information in this thread. I have learned more in two weeks from this website than I have learned in two years from PH and from other websites. This is BY FAR the best website for these types of issues. It's clear that the best of the best in Men's health and in Hormones end up here. I hope you guys continue to post here so I can continue to follow your progress.


Entropy
How is your andro hard cycle going?
You mentioned you where on and off the poison for seven years. Did most of your issues develop "over night" in the form of a crash or did they they come on in a more gradual way which eventually caused you to stop? Sounds like you have made crazy progress for just being six months off which is awesome. I have been going through most of your posts, the only thing I can't find is if you fasted or not?

English
How is your alpha hard cycle going?
I believe I was reading that you are about two weeks in?
Other than the epi andro is this your only other attempt at cycling DHT prohormones?
Your concerns with estrogen are interesting. If I am understanding your concerns correctly you are being extra cautious about not lowering your estrogen to much.

This seems like a good thing to watch. At one point during my two and a half year clomid restart my endo and I moved my estrogen levels down a little to low with armidex and I got worse. I like the idea of your very scientific approach by testing your blood as you continue through this process, in between cycles ect....


Strykers
How long have you been on clomid?
Your LH results that you posted look low so I don't see why clomid can be a bad idea.
Is your doctor going to wean you off of clomid slowly? This is one of the biggest factors involved in my own clomid restart
That I contribute to why it was successful in the long term. Are you going to fast eventually? I did my first one a little over two week ago. It was only a seven day juice fast but It has allowed me to reacquaint myself with food which has provided me with the discipline and confidence needed to eat a paleo diet. I look forward to your updates.

[5 alpha victim]

No!! When you're taking exogenous hormones it doesn't make sense to use the T boosters.

You're going to:

Cycle
PCT
T booster regimen.
Rinse and repeat.

Hi,
I was wondering how you feel these days about rotating herbs/T boostets with PCT. Is there any disvantages in doing this?

[strykers12]

Hi,
I was wondering how you feel these days about rotating herbs/T boostets with PCT. Is there any disvantages in doing this?

Herbs do not need pct if that's the only thing you are doing

[Cdsnuts]

Hi,
I was wondering how you feel these days about rotating herbs/T boostets with PCT. Is there any disvantages in doing this?

It's not clear to me what you're asking.

[English]

I have been following this thread and I have had the same adverse reaction to the same type of drug you guys have had. There is tons of useful information in this thread. I have learned more in two weeks from this website than I have learned in two years from PH and from other websites. This is BY FAR the best website for these types of issues. It's clear that the best of the best in Men's health and in Hormones end up here. I hope you guys continue to post here so I can continue to follow your progress.


Entropy
How is your andro hard cycle going?
You mentioned you where on and off the poison for seven years. Did most of your issues develop "over night" in the form of a crash or did they they come on in a more gradual way which eventually caused you to stop? Sounds like you have made crazy progress for just being six months off which is awesome. I have been going through most of your posts, the only thing I can't find is if you fasted or not?

English
How is your alpha hard cycle going?
I believe I was reading that you are about two weeks in?
Other than the epi andro is this your only other attempt at cycling DHT prohormones?
Your concerns with estrogen are interesting. If I am understanding your concerns correctly you are being extra cautious about not lowering your estrogen to much.

This seems like a good thing to watch. At one point during my two and a half year clomid restart my endo and I moved my estrogen levels down a little to low with armidex and I got worse. I like the idea of your very scientific approach by testing your blood as you continue through this process, in between cycles ect....


Strykers
How long have you been on clomid?
Your LH results that you posted look low so I don't see why clomid can be a bad idea.
Is your doctor going to wean you off of clomid slowly? This is one of the biggest factors involved in my own clomid restart
That I contribute to why it was successful in the long term. Are you going to fast eventually? I did my first one a little over two week ago. It was only a seven day juice fast but It has allowed me to reacquaint myself with food which has provided me with the discipline and confidence needed to eat a paleo diet. I look forward to your updates.

Hi 5!

First up, please change your screenname for fucks sake, i don't want to be seeing that every time i log on, and it is important what you read and take into the subconscious etc. It will be better for you too as every time you use it or read it you are re-inforcing that you are a victim. This mental stuff is more important than all the clomid and DHT in the world if you want to recover.
In answer to your queries, regards DHT i've only done epi for a few days and hated it, it made me very fatigued. I just stopped Alpha Hard after about 3 weeks as i only wanted to do a mini cycle, primarily because putting stuff down me that i know is suppressive stresses me out. It made me mentally sharper, but i have pretty much healed so not much to report elsewhere.
IMO you shouldn't dwell on the use of DHT derivitives, they formed one part of cd's recovery and none of mine, nor entropy's. I am using them as i wish to optimise and get miles away from the condition, whether they will help with that i don't know, but i am putting my foot in the water, cautiously.
Regards E, yes you mustn't get too low for too long. E is as important as T, if not more important for normal bodily functions.
I personally would not use clomid, i came close though and researched the fuck out of it. One of the isomers is both toxic and Estrogenic. It is far easier to get your T up using exercise, diet, and either natural or low dose pharma AI. The simple reason why some sufferers HPTA is compromised in the first place is massive and prolonged stress. You need to attack the route cause of HPTA shut down - stress, then you need time and consistency of good lifestyle and mental awareness to defeat the unknown post fin issue.

[5 alpha victim]

It's not clear to me what you're asking.

In your original protocol you mentioned cycling the T boosting herbs WITH pct and after pct as well. In other words (If I understood the protocol correctly) the steps are as follows:

1) DHT prohormone
2) PCT with rotating T boosting herbs
3) rotating T boosting herbs

After reading through most of this forum it was not clear to me if the guys following your protocol are rotating the T boosting herbs with their PCT or if they are waiting until AFTER their PCT to begin the rotation of the herbs.

I am just curious as I have studied your protocol and wish to keep up.

Thanks man.
Happy Easter

[5 alpha victim]

regards DHT i've only done epi for a few days and hated it, it made me very fatigued. I just stopped Alpha Hard after about 3 weeks as i only wanted to do a mini cycle, primarily because putting stuff down me that i know is suppressive stresses me out.

IMO you shouldn't dwell on the use of DHT derivitives, they formed one part of cd's recovery and none of mine, nor entropy's.

English
That's the second complaint I got about this screen name. I made the name because its my username on other forums and I can promise I did that with no bad intentions. I just tried changing it with no luck. I'm going to try again and if I have to message the forum admin to change it I will. This goes along with what you are saying about the mental aspect of this and I understand and agree with what you are saying.

Your concerns over the fear of getting shut down are completly understandable. You have made progress through hard work and dedication and you do not want to go backwards. It's a mind trap trying to understand why cycling DHT prohormones can help you but at the same taking them has the potential to hurt you. You answered the question and told me exactly what I was looking to know. The biggest thing I'm looking into right now is how necessary and important the DHT prohormones are to recovery. Of course this is important to me as I would perfer not to mess with them for the same reason you perfer to not want to mess with them.

You have made it clear that you do not feel the use of your Epi andro for a few days or your recent 3 week cycle of alpha hard has had major influences in your progress. That is very helpful . Thank you

Hopefully entropy can throw his 2 cents in on this about how much influence exactly does he feel DHT prohormones have had with his recovery.

[English]

regards DHT i've only done epi for a few days and hated it, it made me very fatigued. I just stopped Alpha Hard after about 3 weeks as i only wanted to do a mini cycle, primarily because putting stuff down me that i know is suppressive stresses me out.

IMO you shouldn't dwell on the use of DHT derivitives, they formed one part of cd's recovery and none of mine, nor entropy's.

English
That's the second complaint I got about this screen name. I made the name because its my username on other forums and I can promise I did that with no bad intentions. I just tried changing it with no luck. I'm going to try again and if I have to message the forum admin to change it I will. This goes along with what you are saying about the mental aspect of this and I understand and agree with what you are saying.

Your concerns over the fear of getting shut down are completly understandable. You have made progress through hard work and dedication and you do not want to go backwards. It's a mind trap trying to understand why cycling DHT prohormones can help you but at the same taking them has the potential to hurt you. You answered the question and told me exactly what I was looking to know. The biggest thing I'm looking into right now is how necessary and important the DHT prohormones are to recovery. Of course this is important to me as I would perfer not to mess with them for the same reason you perfer to not want to mess with them.

You have made it clear that you do not feel the use of your Epi andro for a few days or your recent 3 week cycle of alpha hard has had major influences in your progress. That is very helpful . Thank you

Hopefully entropy can throw his 2 cents in on this about how much influence exactly does he feel DHT prohormones have had with his recovery.

Good news regards screenname, because if a whole load of people from PH come on here with their negative screen names and victim mentalities, then i will disappear and i know that Entropy and CD share the same thoughts on it. You do not seem to share the victim mentality though, so yeah, change the screenname and change every other thing that you have unwittingly done that labels you as such on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. The recovery game is no different to a game of pro-sport, and as the guy who led the most successful olympic cycling squad in the history of sport said (i refer to the british team of course!): "It is about the aggregation of marginal gains"
Of course that means you have to get the main parts in place too, but little stuff like screen names and how you refer to yourself in your head, whether you look up or down and stand tall in the street - all these things are a third of one percent, and they add up, yet they are easy to change.

I can certainly tell you that Entropy only started his first AH V3 cycle about the same time as me (3 or 4 weeks ago) and i know he is enjoying being on them, so they are positively affecting him - at least whilst on them - however he was already referring to himself as functioning well and being out of the woods etc. before taking them.
Personally i believe that much of the value in using them is as tool, or another stage no different to finding another big thing to do that you believe in. For me i would never have recovered without lots of mini stages, i always think: OK so that is not perfect, but that's OK because next month i'm doing this or that, and there's a good chance that doing that will help or make it better, and that thought allows me to not dwell on whatever symptom i experienced.
I still have a few things that are improving all the time but are still not perfect yet simply because skin and sensitivity issues take time to run through, and i know it is important not to dwell on these things or else i could take myself backwards, so i continue to do everything that got me here, i always have something new that i am doing the month after. This is why i will no doubt cycle with AH again in the future, and although i believe the value is in "belief" more than anything, the reason i retain belief in the DHT derivatives is because i know they might well be responsible for the final 10% / optimising in a shorter time frame, also because i respect CD and Entropy and their decision making processes and they rate them. Sometimes you have to believe based on others as much as yourself, but of course in these instances you must choose those you respect wisely.
To summarise, i know for a fact that you don't need the DHT derivatives to recover, however they may help speed up the process, and if you believe in them then they probably will - however, do not take them unless testing shows your HPTA axis is in good order (or, like CD did, you are already feeling 70% recovered in which case you don't need bloods as you can't feel that well with a broken HPTA) , doing otherwise is in my opinion foolhardy.

[5 alpha victim]

"Good news regards screenname, because if a whole load of people from PH come on here with their negative screen names and victim mentalities, then i will disappear and i know that Entropy and CD share the same thoughts on it."

I'm trying to change the screen name. It does not look like the settings give me the option. I will need to send a message to the administrator to request the change. I would not worry about a bunch of the PH guys coming over here. They are not looking for a place to talk to people with knowledge for a hobby and to better themselves.

"The reason i retain belief in the DHT derivatives is because i know they might well be responsible for the final 10% / optimising in a shorter time frame, also because i respect CD and Entropy and their decision making processes and they rate them".

It's good to know that IF I decided to use the DHT derivatives sooner than later that maybe the usage could speed things up. Its awesome that you have people like CD and Entropy that you can trust and rely on when making decisions about going left or right. In this type of a situation with stakes this high having people like these guys advising you is huge. People like myself looking in from the outside understand how important that is and truly understand how much that means.

" However do not take them unless testing shows your HPTA axis is in good order (or, like CD did, you are already feeling 70% recovered"

"Entropy was already referring to himself as functioning well and being out of the woods etc. before taking them".

My HPTA is in good shape. Even though Clomid has its disadvantages I still believe it did recover my HPTA. It's been over a year now and I have had several blood readings that indicate Total Testosterone levels in the mid 700's. For a thirty year old these are certainly normal. My SHBG, estrogen and free T levels are all perfect as well. My LH is normal but my FSH remains a little on the low side.

So it's clear that in CD'S , Entropy's and in your case you guys where all at about 70 percent recovered before increasing 5 Alpha Reductase activity via cycling DHT pro hormones. That is very important information. You guys are about it for guys that have been diligent enough to follow CD's protocol so I really am happy that I have been lucky enough to talk to you guys. And please if my analysis regarding my 70 percent conclusion is wrong please correct me.

With that said Its becoming clear to me that the majority of the recovery that takes place during this protocol is from fasting (cleansing), cycling Herbs to increase your Natty T levels (and to get other dietary benefits from them) and by eating a strict Paleo diet with a proper/reasonable gym routine.

English, so we have discussed in detail your usage with DHT prohormones as they relate to your recovery. How about your experience with fasting and cycling the herbs? How have these elements of the program contributed to your progress?

[English]

"Good news regards screenname, because if a whole load of people from PH come on here with their negative screen names and victim mentalities, then i will disappear and i know that Entropy and CD share the same thoughts on it."

I'm trying to change the screen name. It does not look like the settings give me the option. I will need to send a message to the administrator to request the change. I would not worry about a bunch of the PH guys coming over here. They are not looking for a place to talk to people with knowledge for a hobby and to better themselves.

"The reason i retain belief in the DHT derivatives is because i know they might well be responsible for the final 10% / optimising in a shorter time frame, also because i respect CD and Entropy and their decision making processes and they rate them".

It's good to know that IF I decided to use the DHT derivatives sooner than later that maybe the usage could speed things up. Its awesome that you have people like CD and Entropy that you can trust and rely on when making decisions about going left or right. In this type of a situation with stakes this high having people like these guys advising you is huge. People like myself looking in from the outside understand how important that is and truly understand how much that means.

" However do not take them unless testing shows your HPTA axis is in good order (or, like CD did, you are already feeling 70% recovered"

"Entropy was already referring to himself as functioning well and being out of the woods etc. before taking them".

My HPTA is in good shape. Even though Clomid has its disadvantages I still believe it did recover my HPTA. It's been over a year now and I have had several blood readings that indicate Total Testosterone levels in the mid 700's. For a thirty year old these are certainly normal. My SHBG, estrogen and free T levels are all perfect as well. My LH is normal but my FSH remains a little on the low side.

So it's clear that in CD'S , Entropy's and in your case you guys where all at about 70 percent recovered before increasing 5 Alpha Reductase activity via cycling DHT pro hormones. That is very important information. You guys are about it for guys that have been diligent enough to follow CD's protocol so I really am happy that I have been lucky enough to talk to you guys. And please if my analysis regarding my 70 percent conclusion is wrong please correct me.

With that said Its becoming clear to me that the majority of the recovery that takes place during this protocol is from fasting (cleansing), cycling Herbs to increase your Natty T levels (and to get other dietary benefits from them) and by eating a strict Paleo diet with a proper/reasonable gym routine.

English, so we have discussed in detail your usage with DHT prohormones as they relate to your recovery. How about your experience with fasting and cycling the herbs? How have these elements of the program contributed to your progress?

I've just responded to your post on the other thread. Dude, i was recovered before DHT derivatives and all but recovered before i ever spoke with CD. Recovery comes from within - read my other reply.
Your bloods look great, is that without clomid now? That being the case you need time and mental healing. Recovery will come.

[English]

In your original protocol you mentioned cycling the T boosting herbs WITH pct and after pct as well. In other words (If I understood the protocol correctly) the steps are as follows:

1) DHT prohormone
2) PCT with rotating T boosting herbs
3) rotating T boosting herbs

After reading through most of this forum it was not clear to me if the guys following your protocol are rotating the T boosting herbs with their PCT or if they are waiting until AFTER their PCT to begin the rotation of the herbs.

I am just curious as I have studied your protocol and wish to keep up.

Thanks man.
Happy Easter

Just to be clear, even though i find i have said this repeatedly - I have never followed CD's protocol. I followed a recovery plan based on all the impressive self induced recoveries i found on both PH and the wider web. CD's happened to embody all the main elements, however other stuff that CD did was not for me. I did loads different to CD, and many guys that have recovered have also done loads different to CD and different to me also. Recovery has to be to a certain extent individual, although the cornerstones are fixed IMO.
I used to read CD's and Chi's words for inspiration during the bad times, because they both inspire, but i follow no-one blindly, and nor should anyone. You need self belief and you cannot obtain that if you base everything on someone else.

[English]

Hi guys, i am getting too many PM's and being asked too much about this condition now to be enjoying my time here, and i must protect myself given that i have only just recovered. Although i feel for everyone suffering, pretty much everything i have done is already out there.
I set great store on the mental aspect, and being faced with lists of symptoms of others or how they recovered and crashed etc most days can only put me in jeopardy, it is the reason i left PH and came here.
You can use my thread by all means, but i will not be reading or replying to it as will be taking a break from this for the foreseeable.
Please do not PM me, i will not reply.

[strykers12]

take a break english. you and others sure deserve one

[ToniBR]

Congratulations, English! I also created an account here hoping to find some light. I've been living in a very dark moment of my life, but I'm taking measures. Hopefully one day I'll be posting a recovery aswell. Be fine, buddy

[English]

Hi all,

I am aware that a load of people from PH read this thread. I'm happy to say i'm fully recovered now from the term pfs and have been for the best part of 6 months, in fact every week i feel better and better because i continue with the same healthy lifestyle etc.
I would like please if someone from PH could copy and paste the following post and put it into the recovery section of PH. I can't do this myself because in order to stop myself from logging in there and reading scary stories, i changed my password and e mail to a fake one that i could never use/remember! I think it's important to give those guys hope as all they are surrounded by is misery. Here it is - i would be grateful if whoever does it replies to confirm it's done. I am never going on there again! :

I am English, which was my original PH login. I am happy to say i am now fully recovered, despite being among the worst affected. I reflect on my posts now and i see that when i was saying i was maybe 70% recovered, that i wasn't at all. Recovering has been very hard, yet actually, with the benefit of hindsight, it should be a relatively easy journey for anyone.
I will outline here how to recover, but most reading this will not believe me, because you want -subconsciously- your condition to be this mythical PFS thing that is not your "fault". A small percentage will believe me and you will recover relatively easily and quickly, because actually this illness and also recovery is founded in belief. Here is a list outlining what created it and what you do to get out of it, and before you start on it, feel free to go back through all my posts on PH under my screen name English - you will see that i decided to recover, and then did, and by the way, another guy "entropy" did the same thing same time with me, and guess what, he's fine too now:

1- PFS begins when you become worried/concerned that your dick suddenly doesn't work after the lowering of DHT results in an imbalance of estrogen/testosterone, and probably a host of other chemicals in your body, and you realise that you are not so taken by attractive females
2- You either shit yourself and become ridden with anxiety and "crash" or you gradually get yourself deeper into depression and start suffering from anxiety related stuff
3- If you are anything like me and a shit load of others, you start reading all the horror stories on the web and on PH, and one day your fine, the next you have sunk into a deep depression and suffer servere anxiety. These things reduce your sex hormones, just as these conditions do in any normal person, except you have started from an already imbalanced state, so it's a perfect storm, 50% of your own creation, well done us.
4- As a result of this perfect storm, your skin, muscle/build, suffer and your sexual issue worsen, you lose feeling in your dick, your balls get smaller and often even your penis changes shape due to a mixture of low sex hormones and low receptivity to those hormones. Your anxiety worsens, you think your life is over, and some end their lives, sadly.
5- It does not have to be that way, getting your life back is a simple process, however to you it will seem very hard at the time. I hope my words make it easier. Many have recovered fully from a similar set of steps, like cdnuts, chi, mitch and i read about 30 similar recoverys on PH and the wider web all told. The thing is though, almost none of them understood why they recovered, yet the common denominators formed a very clear plan, which i followed and later i happened across a book that basically told me why it worked. If i had read that book immediately, my journey would have been much easier. It took me around 18 months to fully recover, it would have took me 6 to 12.
6- Read this book, do it ASAP: "You are the placebo" by Joe Dispenza.
7- Now you understand how deep depression/anxiety/unhappiness can downregulate hundreds of good genes and create real physiological changes, now you can believe in why this recovery plan works.
8- Now begin your recovery plan. I will tell you what i did in the following steps, however, amazing as it may sound to you guys grasping at straws and searching for chemicals or herbs or trying to follow CDNUTS plan to the letter, thinking that you must take pro-hormones, you don't particularly need to every single thing, you can leave some out and insert others that you like better, it doesn't matter, as it is about switching back on the downregulated genes and getting back your hormone profile via a healthy body and mind. Your DHT expression is fine, and you have everything you need to recover. I am not going to re-write the book i mentioned, so you must read that to understand my points here.
9- Mentally relax, drop the battle, it's going to be fine, just understand that it will take time, you must get your thoughts slowly back to what they used to be, looking forward to stuff. Mentally rehearse playing your favourit sports etc. - read the book!
10- Eat as organic as possible, drop sugar and all processed foods
11- Exercise, mostly weights as you will eventually gain muscle and you will gain confidence as a result. Head towards the 5x5 type workout, however still do cardio, because this is about full body fitness
12- Join a club, socialise, laugh, watch comedies. Personally i joined a table tennis club and i love it now
13- Have a project, succeed at work as best you can, laugh at yourself, and basically live life like your fine, you are fine you crazy prick, you just need to improve each week!
14- Personally i rotated the t boosting herbs and at one point - as per this post - i boosted my hormone balance by taking low dose AI. Nothing wrong with expediting the hormone process if you are smart and cautious. Don't take just E lowering herbs, you need to balance them out with others have a different action. But the bottom line that you don't need to take any at all. For me they have been a mental crutch and probably not much more.

NOTE - don't do anything that can harm you because you don't need to take big risks. Personally i dabbled with prohormones but got scared each time i used them for more than a week due to them apparantly being suppressive, so i binned them. My recovery had absolutely nothing to do with the handful of days i took them. Many guys are obsessed by them because CD took them, however these guys ignore all the other recovery stories that didn't involve them. This is because the condition makes you crazy/depressed/anxiety ridden, and in this state the human way is to look for a silver bullet.

Seriously guys, it is as easy as that. The easiest yet also the hardest thing in the world is to simply drop the mental battle and just go about your day, yet that is the biggest component, add that to time, a great diet and lifestyle, laughter, a project, family, friends etc. and you will recover. If you don't believe me, sadly you won't. Belief doesn't happen over night though, you can create it by reading these words and those of other recovery stories, stop reading scary words, develop your recovery plan that you believe in, then over a period of months, you will notice tiny signs of improvements, maybe your skin, maybe a small sexual improvement, or in energy, this adds more belief and your regimen intensifies, and like a snowball you grow back to your old self.

How am i now? I am back to my old self. Out of 30ish symptoms, i just now have achy feet. I lost alot of mass including feet and hands and my feet never quite returned to normal. CD still has tinitus (one of the biggest causes of tinnitus is stress) I also have maybe a few more wrinkes on my face than i would have had, however i look pretty good again, i am a new father to a 3 month old boy, my girlfriend is 15 years younger than me and i have a great life. I am also quite wealthy now as one of the things i did after getting this bullshit term pfs was to say to myself "fuck this, if i am going feel shit for years then i am at least gunna create something to show for it when i am better" I did, and a business i started during this period is now worth millions.

What i am saying is that you have a choice of how you respond to this. For example when i felt so shit i slept no more than 2 broken hours a night, and my body shook all day from anxiety, my mind was fogged, and recall bursting into tears once when i couldn't peel an egg (all this alongside losing over 2 stone of muscle and not being able to get it up) - what did i do? I booked a weeks walking holiday in Wales which i knew would force me to walk, to talk, to do. I swam in the sea every day, sometimes in the dark. I still have a cold shower every morning. I did a shit load of crazy stuff, that in itself was largely unnecessary, but i did it all to move my focus to recovery, to a plan, to a mission which allowed me to ignore my symptoms because i had a plan to get rid of them.
Most of it is mental, but it takes many months, sometimes a year or two of doing the right thing to finally achieve the correct mental state that allows your body to follow. You don't realise how far you've gone into the wrong mindset until finally you're recovered, so you need patience.

Above all, relax, stop making such a fucking meal of it. Together you crazy fuckers are collectively taking everyone down together, get a grip, get real, it's not all over for you.

Finally, i am nearly 41, have a broken back which limited what i could do. I was one of the eldest, which helped me because i have lived a bit and i knew that just because everyone in a particular group is saying the same thing, it does not necessarily make it so. This is pack mentality and the guys that break it can follow a new route. Many of you guys are in your 20's / early 30's so physically you are in a better position to recover, there is no reason for you not to.

So step 1- read that book.............

I hope this helps some people out there.

Oh, and just to be clear, i am not going to answer a single question. If you have questions, it is because your mind is beset by doubt, depression, anxiety and you're looking for a silver bullet, or your looking for reassurance that this or that particular symptom will go away. These are behaviours you must get rid of. Did you look for reassurance every 10 seconds when you were healthy? No, so i am not going to continue this unhealthy process by joining in on a Q+A. Everything you need to recover is written above because it is not an exact thing, you have to make your own plan, find your own belief, do it your way, but always with healthy mind, body, lifestyle type of approach. Don't ask, because i won't reply, in fact i probably won't even read your question because nowadays i don't do forums for months at a time. I wish you all the very best though. Not luck, you don't need that.

[WesleyInman]

Good read man. Very well thought out. Thank you.

Also I like #10- Something I need to do. Cut out salts, processed foods, sugars and all the crap. Night and day difference when you do this. It is definitely more expensive to eat clean and healthy, but def worth the investment :)

[Swill]

great read English, I'm certain i'll be right there behind you and recovered in no time, and have had immeasurable help from him, CD and a few others on this forum. And in the meantime, life is fucking great regardless... as he said, the hardest and easiest thing to do is to stop stressing and let this thing consume you.

Im also half way through 'You are the Placebo' and it is a fucking incredible read that I would recommend to anyone, dealing with health issues or otherwise. It really turns what you thing about being healthful right on its head and teaches how you can up regulate hormones from a biological perspective. Really makes you think outside the box.

Congrats again English!

[silverstrand]

Congrats Man! - I guess at this point, blood test numbers dont matter :)

[5 alpha victim]

I am taking what English said about the mental part very seriously.

But I am also picking up on number 10 as well. What he's saying about eating health is obviously really important. What's catching my eye the most is the avoiding sugars. At this time we have a guy who put a puzzle together to show cutting out sugar specifically can be found in almost every recovery story from this issue. It's becoming more clear now as to how much our guts come into play as well as our minds.

It's becoming clear that low or altered hormones have very little to do with long term symptoms associated with DHT inhibitors

Awesome post English. What I got the most from this is its a mental plus diet (gut) issue we are talking about here. Our Hormones are fine once a few months goes by as far as their ratios are concerned but they are not working in the long term because of our minds plus our inbalenced guts.

Fix the mind and the gut fix this issue.

Screw a raw diet or paleo, I think the way to go is a organic meat plus organic veggies diet ONLY. It's hard as fuck but I'm doing it. Period

[Cdsnuts]

I am taking what English said about the mental part very seriously.

But I am also picking up on number 10 as well. What he's saying about eating health is obviously really important. What's catching my eye the most is the avoiding sugars. At this time we have a guy who put a puzzle together to show cutting out sugar specifically can be found in almost every recovery story from this issue. It's becoming more clear now as to how much our guts come into play as well as our minds.

It's becoming clear that low or altered hormones have very little to do with long term symptoms associated with DHT inhibitors

Awesome post English. What I got the most from this is its a mental plus diet (gut) issue we are talking about here. Our Hormones are fine once a few months goes by as far as their ratios are concerned but they are not working in the long term because of our minds plus our inbalenced guts.

Fix the mind and the gut fix this issue.

Screw a raw diet or paleo, I think the way to go is a organic meat plus organic veggies diet ONLY. It's hard as fuck but I'm doing it. Period

Meats and veggies = Paleo, for the most part.

And low or altered hormones are most definitely part of the problem. Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but it is the hallmark of on going issues for these guys. That's why alot of them are ending up here, at a forum dedicated to using/optimizing hormones.

It's been mentioned before, but I'll say it again. Start using holosync. English found it to be very helpful indeed. It's one of the best ways to get your head in check while simultaneously doing all the other things you need to be doing.

[English]

Meats and veggies = Paleo, for the most part.

And low or altered hormones are most definitely part of the problem. Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but it is the hallmark of on going issues for these guys. That's why alot of them are ending up here, at a forum dedicated to using/optimizing hormones.

It's been mentioned before, but I'll say it again. Start using holosync. English found it to be very helpful indeed. It's one of the best ways to get your head in check while simultaneously doing all the other things you need to be doing.

Yes i forgot to mention Holosync which has been brilliant and i will continue to use it until i finish the course. I also meditate without it too quite often. And as CD said, hormones are a key component, and that is why i came here too, although IMO your hormones will pretty quickly find normal balance if you stick to the plan.

[English]

I am taking what English said about the mental part very seriously.

But I am also picking up on number 10 as well. What he's saying about eating health is obviously really important. What's catching my eye the most is the avoiding sugars. At this time we have a guy who put a puzzle together to show cutting out sugar specifically can be found in almost every recovery story from this issue. It's becoming more clear now as to how much our guts come into play as well as our minds.

It's becoming clear that low or altered hormones have very little to do with long term symptoms associated with DHT inhibitors

Awesome post English. What I got the most from this is its a mental plus diet (gut) issue we are talking about here. Our Hormones are fine once a few months goes by as far as their ratios are concerned but they are not working in the long term because of our minds plus our inbalenced guts.

Fix the mind and the gut fix this issue.

Screw a raw diet or paleo, I think the way to go is a organic meat plus organic veggies diet ONLY. It's hard as fuck but I'm doing it. Period

5 alpha you are doing the thing i predicted and looking for one key element. You shouldn't take one or two key elements from it, because the fix is holistic, boring as it sounds. The gut is of course incredibly important, but it's impossible to have a healthy gut without a healthy mind and body, achieved via all the elements listed. Like CD said, the diet i suggest is virtually paleo. I have cut out gluten mostly from my diet too so it is pretty close, but you don't need to dwell on diet or any singular point, just create your own plan and ensure your diet is a healthy one, which should always mean fruit, veg, meat. With your meat ideally from proven sources and grass fed beef etc. and your veg organic if possible. Consume high quality saturated fat and if you can't bring yourself to remove bread completely then try to restrict it to the evenings with or after your main meal and eat bread made from the grains of old like spelt or sorghum. The key thing is to remove pesticides, simple processed sugars, processed foods and non complex carbohydrates from your diet as much as possible without being mental over it. Eat fruit but maybe avoid the very sweet ones, so berries are often good to eat.
Lowish fibre, high saturated fat, high protein, complex carbs result in high sex hormones, but only when coupled with exercise (not too much) and a healthy relaxed mind that 99% of the time is locked on a present task that you like and want to do/finish, looking forward to something, or replaying a happy event where you achieved something or made someone laugh or whatever.
You could have a semi healthy diet and still recover in quick time if you replaced your worried mind with 100% of the thoughts you had before you ever took fin, but that is not possible overnight, so work on the mind day by day, and start forgetting all this talk about illness, just get on with your life in a constant and consistently healthy way, day after day. Once you get your plan together, stick to it and do not veer off course. Don't come back to forums or start researching for other ideas, just commit to a healthy hollistic way of life and believe me, you will end up with a healthy gut too!!
Look at what Chi did - he covered all his mirrors up because he had developed a self image complex. He broke the mental ticks and along with a seriously busy recovery plan -similar to CD and myself, he moved his thoughts to nothing but positive thoughts of recovery or other daily life stuff. He moved his mind from obsessive negative patterns to positive go getter stuff.
So if anything is key, the mind is, but you can't heal your mind without a great deal of work, patience and time away from the written word and all other reminders of illness. The book i suggest will set you down the right path mentally, and then you can select other tools such as holosync to help you achieve the mental states the book explains and evidences as the states of recovery. ORDER THE BOOK NOW.

I only popped back to see if someone had posted my recovery story on PH - can you or someone else do that please?

I'll be back here in a few months and wish you and any others trying to heal from whatever all the very best.

[English]

great read English, I'm certain i'll be right there behind you and recovered in no time, and have had immeasurable help from him, CD and a few others on this forum. And in the meantime, life is fucking great regardless... as he said, the hardest and easiest thing to do is to stop stressing and let this thing consume you.

Im also half way through 'You are the Placebo' and it is a fucking incredible read that I would recommend to anyone, dealing with health issues or otherwise. It really turns what you thing about being healthful right on its head and teaches how you can up regulate hormones from a biological perspective. Really makes you think outside the box.

Congrats again English!

Glad you like it Swill, like you say it should be read by anyone, particularly the healthy, as then when you do find yourself in a spot of bother, you will have a fuller understanding of how best to deal with it. I've not doubt at all you will be fine, just stick to your plan, in cd's words "like a mule".

[silverstrand]

5

I only popped back to see if someone had posted my recovery story on PH - can you or someone else do that please?

I'll be back here in a few months and wish you and any others trying to heal from whatever all the very best.

Propecia Help is down for maintenance until Sept 22nd. I log on periodically to research specific topics. Just about everything has been discussed at one point in time on the website so though it can be negative, it really is a great reference tool. In the future, I plan to give back to that community as you and others have too. I dont want to mention my name on here as I dont want to link SS with PH.

[English]

Propecia Help is down for maintenance until Sept 22nd. I log on periodically to research specific topics. Just about everything has been discussed at one point in time on the website so though it can be negative, it really is a great reference tool. In the future, I plan to give back to that community as you and others have too. I dont want to mention my name on here as I dont want to link SS with PH.

Cool, so i take it you will post that for me then, thanks dude. Regards PH, i disagree and think it is disproportionately negative, which i now know causes much of the downward spiral. Both the designers of the site and the participants are responsible for that. If you randomly jump around that site as a guy new to PH, you can be reading for 3 or 4 hours before you find a single positive story and this makes you feel hopeless. What information it has is a whole bunch of random shit that guys are trying in desperation, cocktails of chemicals and herbs, many of which work - mainly due to placebo effect - for a short period of time, plummeting the user back into despair after a week or 2 and bringing the readers with him. Then you have the guys with brains in their heads who realise there is no silver bullet and they write about hard work, diet and a positive frame of mind, and they are jumped on by a shit load of despair mongers telling them there is no hope. One guy - Chi - who fully recovered via basically the same route as myself, cdnuts, mitch etc. tried posting a recovery story and was refused. Chi was also contacted by one of the research team and invited to make a blog regards recovery and his experience, but he was told he couldn't express his views on how he thought much of it was in the head. It seems to me that PH is an evidence base for the funding of research into the bullshit term PFS, and anything too positive or that demonstrates that PFS is actually a mentally perpetuated issue is not acceptable as this would lead to funding drying up. How is that multi million funded research going for people?!!!

I repeat, PFS is real immediately after cessation of the drug, but the continuance of symptoms is due to guys shitting themselves at their condition, understandably so, and not finding their way back out of depression/despair - same as millions of other severely depressed guys all around the world who share the same range of symptoms and the same as the millions of guys all around the world with very low T, who, guess what - share the same symptoms.

I'm an ex cop and i've seen guys killing themselves in many ways due to various reasons that pretty much all add up to severe depression and despair, and believe me, not a single one of them has had anything but despair and hopelessness on his mind at the time of his suffering. None of these guys had the urge to shag high on his list of priorities, and all of them looked like shit, felt like shit - did they have pfs? No, they were severely depressed.

PH causes depression to worsen, causes despair and hopelessness to embed themselves and in my opinion is as bad as the drug itself, despite some well meaning intentions.

For the record, 2 months after my last post, i continue to feel better and better, and am now feeling better than ever before (everything works as good as ever!). Currently learning to kite surf.

I just hope lots of sufferers read my words and those of others who recovered and realise that if they believe in recovery and do healthy things, think healthy things they will recover. Their body is programmed to do so.

I am free again. Out.

[Cdsnuts]

Cool, so i take it you will post that for me then, thanks dude. Regards PH, i disagree and think it is disproportionately negative, which i now know causes much of the downward spiral. Both the designers of the site and the participants are responsible for that. If you randomly jump around that site as a guy new to PH, you can be reading for 3 or 4 hours before you find a single positive story and this makes you feel hopeless. What information it has is a whole bunch of random shit that guys are trying in desperation, cocktails of chemicals and herbs, many of which work - mainly due to placebo effect - for a short period of time, plummeting the user back into despair after a week or 2 and bringing the readers with him. Then you have the guys with brains in their heads who realise there is no silver bullet and they write about hard work, diet and a positive frame of mind, and they are jumped on by a shit load of despair mongers telling them there is no hope. One guy - Chi - who fully recovered via basically the same route as myself, cdnuts, mitch etc. tried posting a recovery story and was refused. Chi was also contacted by one of the research team and invited to make a blog regards recovery and his experience, but he was told he couldn't express his views on how he thought much of it was in the head. It seems to me that PH is an evidence base for the funding of research into the bullshit term PFS, and anything too positive or that demonstrates that PFS is actually a mentally perpetuated issue is not acceptable as this would lead to funding drying up. How is that multi million funded research going for people?!!!

I repeat, PFS is real immediately after cessation of the drug, but the continuance of symptoms is due to guys shitting themselves at their condition, understandably so, and not finding their way back out of depression/despair - same as millions of other severely depressed guys all around the world who share the same range of symptoms and the same as the millions of guys all around the world with very low T, who, guess what - share the same symptoms.

I'm an ex cop and i've seen guys killing themselves in many ways due to various reasons that pretty much all add up to severe depression and despair, and believe me, not a single one of them has had anything but despair and hopelessness on his mind at the time of his suffering. None of these guys had the urge to shag high on his list of priorities, and all of them looked like shit, felt like shit - did they have pfs? No, they were severely depressed.

PH causes depression to worsen, causes despair and hopelessness to embed themselves and in my opinion is as bad as the drug itself, despite some well meaning intentions.

For the record, 2 months after my last post, i continue to feel better and better, and am now feeling better than ever before (everything works as good as ever!). Currently learning to kite surf.

I just hope lots of sufferers read my words and those of others who recovered and realise that if they believe in recovery and do healthy things, think healthy things they will recover. Their body is programmed to do so.

Now i see someone is posting my shit on PH, this is almost certainly the last time i will ever visit this forum again, so thanks again to all those who have helped me along the way. You know who you are and we are forever linked.

I am free again. Out.

Not sure if I should have been pissed, but I was when 5 alpha was regurgitating my posts here over at PH. In my recovery post of all places. Almost seemed as if he were a mouthpiece for that post. I didn't appreciate it at all.

Isn't it great though....feeling better then you would have ever felt had you not have gotten hit with PFS. I hate to say it, but I would never be in the shape I'm in, mental or physical, had I not had to deal with that nightmare. The things I've learned and the journey I had to go on will produce benefits for the rest of my life.

Glad to see you're doing well. Although I had no doubt about you.

[English]

Not sure if I should have been pissed, but I was when 5 alpha was regurgitating my posts here over at PH. In my recovery post of all places. Almost seemed as if he were a mouthpiece for that post. I didn't appreciate it at all.

Isn't it great though....feeling better then you would have ever felt had you not have gotten hit with PFS. I hate to say it, but I would never be in the shape I'm in, mental or physical, had I not had to deal with that nightmare. The things I've learned and the journey I had to go on will produce benefits for the rest of my life.

Glad to see you're doing well. Although I had no doubt about you.

certainly is good yeah, oh and i meant it's good that my post is being put on PH, i see that it could sound the opposite, no i wanted that to happen as guys need to see guys recovering. I deliberately changed my passwords and e mail so i can't post on there anymore hence happy someone doing it for me!!

[silverstrand]

Dude, I want to kite surf!!

[silverstrand]

Not sure if I should have been pissed, but I was when 5 alpha was regurgitating my posts here over at PH. In my recovery post of all places. Almost seemed as if he were a mouthpiece for that post. I didn't appreciate it at all.

Isn't it great though....feeling better then you would have ever felt had you not have gotten hit with PFS. I hate to say it, but I would never be in the shape I'm in, mental or physical, had I not had to deal with that nightmare. The things I've learned and the journey I had to go on will produce benefits for the rest of my life.

Glad to see you're doing well. Although I had no doubt about you.

This is really what I'm aiming for too! I've given essentially 10 years to this crap and this will be my last year, I'm sure of it. At this time, I look pretty damn good. I have my sisters hot 18 year old friends hitting on me and texting my number. I ask " how did you get my number" and they respond "got it from your sisters phone when she wasn't looking." I'm 33, WTH LOL.
More importantly, I see my mind has changed. Just more confident in my thoughts, hard to explain but I know you understand. I want to be able to leverage this experience to make the remainder of my life better than it could have ever been. Free from all the shit that stunted me in my past prior to this experience. It's almost been 10 years, I want to see it as an investment that I'll start bein able to cash in big time soon.

[English]

This is really what I'm aiming for too! I've given essentially 10 years to this crap and this will be my last year, I'm sure of it. At this time, I look pretty damn good. I have my sisters hot 18 year old friends hitting on me and texting my number. I ask " how did you get my number" and they respond "got it from your sisters phone when she wasn't looking." I'm 33, WTH LOL.
More importantly, I see my mind has changed. Just more confident in my thoughts, hard to explain but I know you understand. I want to be able to leverage this experience to make the remainder of my life better than it could have ever been. Free from all the shit that stunted me in my past prior to this experience. It's almost been 10 years, I want to see it as an investment that I'll start bein able to cash in big time soon.

Good to hear you are almost there silverstrand, and how you describe yourself now is the hardest place to get to, if you can now just free your mind and properly move on, then you will recover the remainder of yourself quickly. You really need to be at the point where you don't feel the need to tell the world someone wants your phone number - if that makes sense. This kind of occurence is normal for a young guy, and this is just normal for you now, just move on, and talk about other stuff, get a hobby - learn to kite surf, basically normalise your thoughts away from what is 10 years of exercising the same path of neurons. To do this just relax, when you think about any of this stuff, even for a moment, don't berate yourself, just allow yourself to drift to a thought about what you will eat for dinner, or looking forward to watching some sport or whatever, do this a thousand times a day if you need to, eventually you will need to do it a hundred times a day, then 10, then 5, then none. Amazingly, your libido and all other male markers will improve inversely to the number of times you need to move your thoughts to something normal - provided of course diet and exercise are both healthy. You're nearly there, but what i describe here is an important step, generally ignored by most guys who think that discussing their poor health day after day on forums is somehow going to help - good for answers, yes, but you need to cut away at some point and follow the plan....

[5 alpha victim]

Not sure if I should have been pissed, but I was when 5 alpha was regurgitating my posts here over at PH. In my recovery post of all places. Almost seemed as if he were a mouthpiece for that post. I didn't appreciate it at all.

Isn't it great though....feeling better then you would have ever felt had you not have gotten hit with PFS. I hate to say it, but I would never be in the shape I'm in, mental or physical, had I not had to deal with that nightmare. The things I've learned and the journey I had to go on will produce benefits for the rest of my life.

Glad to see you're doing well. Although I had no doubt about you.



Dam ... I just came across this post and was kinda shocked by it. Thinking it through I guess I see what you are saying. Maybe it was best not to promote the following of your protocol on your old thread. Not sure if this is going to help or hurt your feelings toward me promoting your protocol but I figure I should be honest.

I did start my own thread on PH for the purpose of creating a argument free place for guys to document their experiences with trying your protocol. Unfortunately (or maybe it's a good thing) I have been to busy to log into PH lately.

Anyways I apologize if It was looking as if I was attempting to come across like I was trying to be a voice of the protocol. My objective rather was to promote healthy living free of TRT based type protocols for people to follow and used your protocol in order to do so.

[entropy]

Dam ... I just came across this post and was kinda shocked by it. Thinking it through I guess I see what you are saying. Maybe it was best not to promote the following of your protocol on your old thread. Not sure if this is going to help or hurt your feelings toward me promoting your protocol but I figure I should be honest.

I did start my own thread on PH for the purpose of creating a argument free place for guys to document their experiences with tying your protocol. Unfortunately (or maybe it's a good thing) I have been to busy to log into PH lately.

Anyways I apologize if It was looking as if I was attempting to come across like I was trying to be a voice of the protocol. My objective rather was to promote healthy living free of TRT based type protocols for people to follow and used your protocol in order to do so.

I think it's more the way those posts are worded in such a way that it appears cd condoned it. Kinda like trying to be someone else's mouthpiece.. Thats what would've bugged me anyway.

[5 alpha victim]

I understand. I'll take a closer look to see exactly what I wrote and see if I can have it removed.

[Cdsnuts]

I understand. I'll take a closer look to see exactly what I wrote and see if I can have it removed.

Listen....if it helps people great. I was, and always have been documenting my past struggles just to make a record of it and so that others could benefit from what I learned. It was also therapeutic for me to journal everything in that point in my life. It helped me and I know now, after the fact, that it continues to help others. That site helped me in the beginning and I just wanted to give back, and give those guys hope to let them know that it's not a permanent thing that they are going through. Unfortunately for some reason people saw the need to attack what I was doing.....for what reason, I still don't know. I would have loved to have someone do the same for me when I was at my lowest. I would have never saw the need to attack them though.

The way you went about it just came across kind of sneaky to me. You never mentioned that you were going back and forth posting in that thread. There is no need for you to delete anything now. What's done is done and it may very well have helped a couple people. It just seemed like you were acting as the front man for that thread and some of the stuff you were posting isn't actually 100% what I was saying at all. That's what I didn't like.

No hard feelings.

[5 alpha victim]

Listen....if it helps people great. I was, and always have been documenting my past struggles just to make a record of it and so that others could benefit from what I learned. It was also therapeutic for me to journal everything in that point in my life. It helped me and I know now, after the fact, that it continues to help others. That site helped me in the beginning and I just wanted to give back, and give those guys hope to let them know that it's not a permanent thing that they are going through. Unfortunately for some reason people saw the need to attack what I was doing.....for what reason, I still don't know. I would have loved to have someone do the same for me when I was at my lowest. I would have never saw the need to attack them though.

The way you went about it just came across kind of sneaky to me. You never mentioned that you were going back and forth posting in that thread. There is no need for you to delete anything now. What's done is done and it may very well have helped a couple people. It just seemed like you were acting as the front man for that thread and some of the stuff you were posting isn't actually 100% what I was saying at all. That's what I didn't like.

No hard feelings.

Thanks for being cool about this. Moving forward I'll be more careful with what I post over their.

I'm curious to know how the Randro compares overal to your best run on Andro hard?

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks for being cool about this. Moving forward I'll be more careful with what I post over their.

I'm curious to know how the Randro compares overal to your best run on Andro hard?

It's good....very good. Best I've had since. It hits all the right points. The only difference I notice between the two of them is that I got a bit more swole on AH. Other than that, it's where I'm putting my money from now on. It's also what I'd recommend to guys that are gonna start cycling DHT based PH's.

[Zerolibido]

If like to torture this arrogant cunt to death

Fucking herbs spastic

Why did I believe this cunt back in. 2015 I was partying in Berlin getting drunk every night wanking like a champion

This fucking shite done nothing for me

I should have revisited a MEDICAL MALE HIR.INES SPECIALIST AND TAKEN TRT OR HCG

I HAD ZERO ABHEDONIA GOID LIBIDO NORMAL COCK AND BALLS QAS JUST MISSING THE FIBAL TWE TY PERCENT.

FUCMING CUNT

[Zerolibido]

Damn man. Time goes so fast, it doesn't feel like all that long ago that you helped inspire me out of that hole and you're two months away from being a Dad. Congrats again bro and congrats for everything else. I've not once seen you complain.

Damnmam

Not so long ago I was getting drunk multiple times a week and had no abhedonia

Instead I read your fucking shite instead of seeing a specialist

Damn man

Wish I could do diarrhea all over your fucking face cunt

[Zerolibido]

Hey everyone - meaning CD, Entropy and Jel, I just want to say thanks again for the great support you have given me, i continue to do well and am much better for the support i have had here. By the way CD i am on the next stage of Holosync now ( a couple of weeks early ) but the old stage got to the point where it wasn't doing anything for me. The level one is great, and i love the idea of the positive affirmations (inaudible) being on a loop, it really helps alot - even if just the placebo of thinking i am getting postive shit drummed into me for hours a day - I did feel a little silly recording stuff down the phone for 5 minutes though! I also hope the sound engineers don't get bored and re-record all your affirmations in reverse! - "I am a tit" "I am doomed"..........!!!
I went on a tangent there, but seriously, if anyone out there is struggling mentally for any reason - try Holosync from centrepoint. A good spot from CD.

Anyway, thanks guys, i won't be updating so much now as i have a shit load of stuff to do - time to kid T-2months - but i'll be back to update blood results, which i'll be getting every 2 months (if they hold for another 3 times they will be the last ones)
Id love to shite in your face you fucking arrogant cunt

Id fucking SLAUGHTER you tibdeath with a machete you fucking piece of English shit

- - - Updated - - -


Hey everyone - meaning CD, Entropy and Jel, I just want to say thanks again for the great support you have given me, i continue to do well and am much better for the support i have had here. By the way CD i am on the next stage of Holosync now ( a couple of weeks early ) but the old stage got to the point where it wasn't doing anything for me. The level one is great, and i love the idea of the positive affirmations (inaudible) being on a loop, it really helps alot - even if just the placebo of thinking i am getting postive shit drummed into me for hours a day - I did feel a little silly recording stuff down the phone for 5 minutes though! I also hope the sound engineers don't get bored and re-record all your affirmations in reverse! - "I am a tit" "I am doomed"..........!!!
I went on a tangent there, but seriously, if anyone out there is struggling mentally for any reason - try Holosync from centrepoint. A good spot from CD.

Anyway, thanks guys, i won't be updating so much now as i have a shit load of stuff to do - time to kid T-2months - but i'll be back to update blood results, which i'll be getting every 2 months (if they hold for another 3 times they will be the last ones)


I took the shit for an awfully long time, I've been totally off for nearly six months now after using it on and off for seven years thinking it was harmless. I'm very familiar with the way cdnuts describes this whole process. Right now I feel better than I ever remember feeling.. Ever. And it just keeps getting better and better. I have bad days still for sure but less and less as time goes by. Its very exciting wondering where I'll be in a year or two from now.

As weird as it sounds, it reminds me of puberty.

If you do fall back English, take it in your stride. We've spent a long time exchanging emails and talking and I genuinely believe we both have the thing CD has that sets us apart from those guys.

Yes you do have that it's called bing a fucking retard you midget English cunt
.if fucking tirture you to death and leave yiur carcass in the Thames

[Zerolibido]

Listen....if it helps people great. I was, and always have been documenting my past struggles just to make a record of it and so that others could benefit from what I learned. It was also therapeutic for me to journal everything in that point in my life. It helped me and I know now, after the fact, that it continues to help others. That site helped me in the beginning and I just wanted to give back, and give those guys hope to let them know that it's not a permanent thing that they are going through. Unfortunately for some reason people saw the need to attack what I was doing.....for what reason, I still don't know. I would have loved to have someone do the same for me when I was at my lowest. I would have never saw the need to attack them though.

The way you went about it just came across kind of sneaky to me. You never mentioned that you were going back and forth posting in that thread. There is no need for you to delete anything now. What's done is done and it may very well have helped a couple people. It just seemed like you were acting as the front man for that thread and some of the stuff you were posting isn't actually 100% what I was saying at all. That's what I didn't like.

No hard feelings.

Five alpha is another gimp who never mentioned he had zero kibido unlike me hence why HCG and so on failed

[Zerolibido]

Thanks for that Jel, i did read those reports a while back when i was considering clomid as an option, in fact i read just about everything out there on clomid and nolva. The reason i didn't got with it is because there is a huge list of clomid failures on the Propecia Help forum with literally just a couple of successes from hundreds of attempts. Dr Shippen and co use this treatment successfully for almost all hypogonadal patients but from what i have read he hasn't scored a single successful treatment of a post fin patient, despite them queueing up at his door to be treated. (by successful i mean the patient feels better and can get off clomid and still feels better)

Post fin guys are complex cases - what can i say.

Anyway, i am not showing a hypogonadal profile anymore so i am extremely hopeful that just the AI will be enough. Slow and steady, consistent application of diet, exercise, mind control and hormone tweaking rather than tugging tend to win the race when it comes to post fin guys - No clue why, just the way it seems to be.
I wish there was a quicker way, but hey, shit happens.

This was my fault admittedly

I told him on oh climid never works

Ironically climid or HCG would have worked for me than as ai was just low T symptoms ynit PFS

[Zerolibido]

I want to batter this cunt to death

I had. Fucking not al fucking cock and balls for years

Took quetiapine because of this efucking irangebbastards

I wan to slaughter that stair surfing cunts

- - - Updated - - -


Thanks for that, I had stopped the T boosters and was doing it right, just checking as it's been a very long time since reading what you did, and to be honest, i don't want to go back to PH to refresh etc.

sHUT UO YOU FUCKING CUNT

[Zerolibido]

I

Am

Going


To


Killl
My


Self

- - - Updated - - -

I



Am



Going


To




Off




My


Self