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Haritec
01-07-2015, 01:32 PM
My long term experiment with clomid has come to an end, and did not result in a restart. Within three months of coming off clomid - my free and bioavailable testosterone have dropped to the bottom end of the range - they were above midpoint for the two years I took clomid. So I am looking at getting on TRT now ( FYI - almost 55 yo )

With all the options out there ( topical gels, patches, buccal and of course injection of various compounds), what do you consider to be the best approach to take and if you have an opinion as to why I would love to hear it.

My Naturopath is in favor of a sub-lingual delivery system that is done thru a compounding pharmacy here in Calgary - it doesn't seem to be a really common approach but he swears by it - I have my doubts but they may be irrational. It does avoid the problems of oral testosterone and associated liver toxicity (apparently).

Anyways - wondering what the best regimen is as far as dealing with common sides of low test - mostly lack of concentration, fatigue, memory effects, lack of motivation.

Thanks in advance for any advice from this great group

weekend
01-07-2015, 02:12 PM
Test cyp. sublingual there's no way you can sustain solid levels. I'd like to be proven wrong but I just don't see it happening.

- - - Updated - - -

If you don't have frequent sexual contact you can add the gel to the cyp, to boost DHT which will
Make a difference in brain fog.

But any test replacement will probably increase your sexual contact lol

lt1head
01-07-2015, 02:22 PM
sublingual test is absorbed directly into the bloodstream, so theres no initial pass through the liver to become active. If i remember right, sublingual has a very short half life, so youd probably end up taking it multiple times a day.

on the following link, read: TRT a recipe for success. Dr john crisler is friends with my family dr and i follow his protocols.

All Things Male - Dr. Crisler's Publications (http://www.allthingsmale.com/publications.html)

lt1head
01-07-2015, 02:29 PM
If you combined test cyp injections with sublingual test you could have a decent baseline value, and then boost it up in the morning with the sublingual. Which would mimic normal test levels variations throughout the day.

If you do just sublingual you would end up with low t while you are sleeping. I do test cyp so that i have no dip in levels overnight and therefore have a much better recovery.

Hank!
01-07-2015, 03:38 PM
I have been on TRT - Fortesta for 3 years and normally test in the 300-600 range. When TRT works it will get you to what the industry considers avg, but who wants to be avg?

I was tested when I was using E-Spray (PH to DHT) my levels were in the 1100 range. Since then I am a big fan of Proviron or any DHT as a supplement to my TRT.

A another "benefit" to TRT is that if you cycle AAS or PH's you will always have a Test base to fall back on

Jelisej
01-07-2015, 04:54 PM
At the moment best option is injectable testosterone- either test e or cyp (whichever is available in Canada both), you start with around 100 mg a week and work your way up or down, on top of that I suggest HCG 3X a week, 250 IU to start with, 50 mg pregnenolone and AI- preferably exemestane/aromasin- dose of AI depends from person to person.

BTW restart protocol rarely works for people close to 50 and over.

weekend
01-07-2015, 05:00 PM
I wouldn't attempt a restart above age 35 honestly. I have no real basis for saying this but at that point time to feel good and not fuck around

wagon241
01-08-2015, 12:34 PM
I have been on TRT - Fortesta for 3 years and normally test in the 300-600 range. When TRT works it will get you to what the industry considers avg, but who wants to be avg?

I was tested when I was using E-Spray (PH to DHT) my levels were in the 1100 range. Since then I am a big fan of Proviron or any DHT as a supplement to my TRT.

A another "benefit" to TRT is that if you cycle AAS or PH's you will always have a Test base to fall back on

Couldnt agree more with the DHT comment. Since starting TRT a few years ago, my entire lifestyle changed! I have been using AG1.62 for a few years, and when used correctly, is AWESOME! The gel applied to the upper shoulders and/or back is no issue at all. Passing it onto your wife, kids, etc, is damn near impossible. The shit dries in seconds, and usually wearing clothes. Also, what makes it better than straight T, is I dont need any AI, or HCG, due to a decent conversion rate to DHT. Only thing I will say, is it took about 3 months to fully get into my system at a steady level! After that, no issues what so ever!

Freepressright
01-08-2015, 01:21 PM
I've always looked at the low dosage of test delivered by things like AndroDerm and Androgel and wondered how in the hell you could get decent results from them. Anyone have any decent numbers from transdermal TRT?

I read a bunch of reviews on topical TRT products and these guys were cheering to get 300-400. I was lucky if I found one or two guys who said they were even around 600.

If I'm going to the trouble of TRT, I want my values between 700 and 1,000. Like Hank said, why be average?

I used to be against TRT and felt like people just didn't do enough diet, exercise and supplementation. But as I'm in my mid 30s and feelings whole lot less virility than I used to, and with a woman who has more sex drive than I've ever seen (expects it at least twice a day, every day), I'm thinking TRT's going to have to be in my future.

Scope75
01-08-2015, 02:29 PM
Talking with the pharmacist this week he straight up told me to try and skip the gels and go right for the injections because he's never seen over 600 and then it drops back down.

Also if you get dropped or don't have insurance for some reason Test C is WAY cheaper.

Like FPR and Hank have said "Why Be Average??"
I want to be around 1000

Jelisej
01-08-2015, 05:15 PM
In reality its free test that counts, total testosterone does have some benefits and some research show that total test. has some receptors on its own- problem is that it cannot cross blood-brain barrier, so we dont have all benefits from just having decent tot. testosterone- so again sometimes people can be happy with 600 ng/dl, but sometimes we need more- target is to have free testosterone near or at the top range; it depends from SHBG- higher SHBG higher total testosterone is needed.
People with low SHBG would not benefit from higher end tot. testosterone on other hand people with sky high SHBG need to be at higher end, sometimes even over the range is OK, so if someone had lets say 1 500 ng/dl, and other parameters are OK (fre test at top, not too much E2 and not to thick blood) than its OK to stay there.

With gel, as DHT goes high it drives SHBG low, and if they dont get lot of conversion to E2 then with total test of 400 ng/dl may feel great as both DHT and free test are at top, so they feel great, but overall test. injections are more reliable friend.

Freepressright
01-09-2015, 07:24 AM
In reality its free test that counts, total testosterone does have some benefits and some research show that total test. has some receptors on its own- problem is that it cannot cross blood-brain barrier, so we dont have all benefits from just having decent tot. testosterone- so again sometimes people can be happy with 600 ng/dl, but sometimes we need more- target is to have free testosterone near or at the top range; it depends from SHBG- higher SHBG higher total testosterone is needed.
People with low SHBG would not benefit from higher end tot. testosterone on other hand people with sky high SHBG need to be at higher end, sometimes even over the range is OK, so if someone had lets say 1 500 ng/dl, and other parameters are OK (fre test at top, not too much E2 and not to thick blood) than its OK to stay there.

With gel, as DHT goes high it drives SHBG low, and if they dont get lot of conversion to E2 then with total test of 400 ng/dl may feel great as both DHT and free test are at top, so they feel great, but overall test. injections are more reliable friend.

I was doing some reading yesterday after I made my post, and I reviewed Dr. John Crisler's paper on TRT "A Recipe for Success" and got a better understanding of gels and creams. He thinks gels are the best method of TRT out there because of the enhanced DHT conversion through the androgenic enzymes on the skin. I was also better able to understand that ester weights skew our understanding of the active testosterone in something like test cyp. A great deal of the milligrams of dosage include the ester weight. With the gels you don't have that, so you're talking about raw testosterone.

As always, J, your detailed explanation is also of great benefit to me in getting an understanding of this. You are correct in that testosterone is virtually useless if it's bound. 400 total doesn't sound like much of a number. I'd rather be up around a thousand. But I could have 400 total T and have more unbound test than the guy reading 1,000. So once again, what you post makes perfect sense.

Freepressright
01-09-2015, 07:26 AM
Talking with the pharmacist this week he straight up told me to try and skip the gels and go right for the injections because he's never seen over 600 and then it drops back down.

Also if you get dropped or don't have insurance for some reason Test C is WAY cheaper.

Like FPR and Hank have said "Why Be Average??"
I want to be around 1000

Excellent point on insurance. I was reading the obscene cost of Androgel, even to some with insurance. There's just no fucking excuse for it other than the stranglehold that the big pharmaceutical corporations have on us as consumers. I'd just take the damn injection and supplement Epiandro for DHT enhancement because if I lost my insurance, the oil is cheap enough I could stay on it.

Hank!
01-09-2015, 11:23 AM
Generics are out now so deductibles will fall in line. I was paying $30 a ,month using a coupon, without that discount its $50 a month. Generic will be $10 I think.

2% gel
Endo Launches Generic Fortesta Gel - MPR (http://www.empr.com/endo-launches-generic-fortesta-gel/article/370184/)

Haritec
01-09-2015, 12:58 PM
Thanks for all the feedback - this board is awesome.

After years of fighting with low test and trying all the alternatives I could think of to TRT ( diet exercises herbs DAA clomid ) I decidedly would love to "not be average". My SHBG does run high - is one of my problems. I have found taking stinging nettle twice daily helps with that but am not taking any right now as I want to see where all my levels stabilize at with no supplements other than my usual vitamins.

It sounds like the ideal would be to get two doctors - one to prescribe Test Cyp injections and HCG - the other to give you a trans dermal or scrotal gel to get DHT numbers up.

Scope75
01-09-2015, 02:01 PM
IM Test is what I'm after on my appointment on 1/26 and my other doctor gave me a RX for Androgel so if my insurance approves it I'll have both on hand and will see about combining the 2 later on down the road.

weekend
01-09-2015, 02:40 PM
Jel, what are your thoughts on adding straight up dermacrine to TRT? How many mg of topical dhea/preg would you use?

tallstraw
01-09-2015, 04:29 PM
Haretic..they aren't gonna give you androgel, and test cyp man...it's one or the other..and your best bet is the cyp..if you can find a doc for that..keep him on retainer lol

Jelisej
01-09-2015, 05:09 PM
Jel, what are your thoughts on adding straight up dermacrine to TRT? How many mg of topical dhea/preg would you use?

Defintely good idea, as matter of fact even adding it a week or two before would be wise.
I think 50 mg (oral) of both are ok to start with and then if needed increase pregnenolone, with transdermal I think around 15-20 mg is ok to start with.
Excessive DHEA converts to E2 a lot, so thats why I'm cautious with increasing DHEA more than 50 mg, pregnenolone also converts to DHEA as well, so increasing preg should cover it all- when progesterone reaches a top than you know thats enough. Only possible confusion can happen- when HCG dosage is to high it also raises progesterone a lot, which can make dosing of preg/hcg bit difficult.


For raising DHT there is DHT cream/gel.

lt1head
01-09-2015, 05:31 PM
For raising DHT there is DHT cream/gel.

Is this something that can be perscribed? Can't seem to find any OTC

Jelisej
01-09-2015, 05:36 PM
Is this something that can be perscribed? Can't seem to find any OTC

It depends from endo I think, in Europe they prescribe it sometimes- dont know how it is in USA or Canada, but it can be imported without problems I think.

Freepressright
01-09-2015, 07:05 PM
Is this something that can be perscribed? Can't seem to find any OTC

Andractim - RX only

tallstraw
01-09-2015, 10:57 PM
God damn I'm glad Jelis is here

Haritec
01-10-2015, 02:27 PM
Haretic..they aren't gonna give you androgel, and test cyp man...it's one or the other..and your best bet is the cyp..if you can find a doc for that..keep him on retainer lol

Well I am definitely going to go with injectables as the first option. My thought was to see two different doctors and get two different prescriptions - one for gel and one for injectable. I imagine there are rules against that - but I am not sure how effective they are at finding out that kind of data ? I would probably fill one at my local pharmacy - and choose a legit online pharmacy in Canada for the other - just a thought.

Haritec
01-10-2015, 02:31 PM
Defintely good idea, as matter of fact even adding it a week or two before would be wise.
I think 50 mg (oral) of both are ok to start with and then if needed increase pregnenolone, with transdermal I think around 15-20 mg is ok to start with.
Excessive DHEA converts to E2 a lot, so thats why I'm cautious with increasing DHEA more than 50 mg, pregnenolone also converts to DHEA as well, so increasing preg should cover it all- when progesterone reaches a top than you know thats enough. Only possible confusion can happen- when HCG dosage is to high it also raises progesterone a lot, which can make dosing of preg/hcg bit difficult.


For raising DHT there is DHT cream/gel.


So ... if I am understanding this - the thought would be to go with Test cyp and then some number of pumps of dermacrine - which should add some testosterone due to conversion of DHEA, as well as provide pregnelone. Did someone not also suggest at one point that dermacrine applied to the scrotum will increase DHT - DHEA converts to testosterone and enzymes in scrotum convert testosterone to DHT ?

Jelisej
01-10-2015, 04:56 PM
So ... if I am understanding this - the thought would be to go with Test cyp and then some number of pumps of dermacrine - which should add some testosterone due to conversion of DHEA, as well as provide pregnelone. Did someone not also suggest at one point that dermacrine applied to the scrotum will increase DHT - DHEA converts to testosterone and enzymes in scrotum convert testosterone to DHT ?

I think testosterone and DHT conversion from DHEA is pretty much insignificant, if anything DHEA converts a lot more to E2 (at least in men), keeping DHEA in decent levels has some benefits like for immune system and apparently antiageing benefits, both everything over the top will likely end up into E2. So I suggest only little bit of DHEA, and more of pregnenolone as pregnenolone has a lot of benefits on its own and it cascades into DHEA (and other hormones in line).

Also I would suggest you to do one thing at the time- start with injectable testosterone (cyp or enthanate) get testosterone levels steady and then add bit of transdermal testosterone or even DHT, otherwise it can be confusing and also testosterone can be bit supressive to cortisol and DHT can be a supressive towards cortisol a lot- so after testosterone levels and cortisol levels are OK then add DHT.

wagon241
01-11-2015, 02:00 PM
I've always looked at the low dosage of test delivered by things like AndroDerm and Androgel and wondered how in the hell you could get decent results from them. Anyone have any decent numbers from transdermal TRT?

I read a bunch of reviews on topical TRT products and these guys were cheering to get 300-400. I was lucky if I found one or two guys who said they were even around 600.

If I'm going to the trouble of TRT, I want my values between 700 and 1,000. Like Hank said, why be average?

I used to be against TRT and felt like people just didn't do enough diet, exercise and supplementation. But as I'm in my mid 30s and feelings whole lot less virility than I used to, and with a woman who has more sex drive than I've ever seen (expects it at least twice a day, every day), I'm thinking TRT's going to have to be in my future.

As stated above, I have been on Androgel 1.62 for over two years. I have the option of the trt injections, however with everything I have learned from people like Jells over the years, on various boards like Eric from PP, I chose to go the derma route. At 3 pumps per day, about 61mgs, I maintain an average total test of 1000-1200. But as jells stated, it's the free test(unbounded) that counts when it comes to TRT. With out AG1.62 my free would drop to as low as 27. With natural supps I could get it up to 40's at best. Scale is 40-250 usually. With 3 pumps I maintain around 200-210. HUGE difference in lifestyle change. As stated in my first post, the reason I prefer androgel is I do get a decent conversion to DHT. Never been flagged high, but on the upper end. I also stated that the whole "spreading it to others" thing is exaderated a lot! The gel dries so fast, that unless your sweating all over someone it's not an issue. Even if u get a little on your old lady, it ain't gonna hurt, in fact it might put her in the mood!!

somm
01-14-2015, 12:19 PM
Andractim - RX only

Just a heads up on this. If you place an order you might want to let your bank know ahead of time. I placed an order and my bank froze my card because of suspicion of fraudulent activity. I called and told them it was ok and they unfroze my card. Also I think this other site may be a bit cheaper but prob not much Genuine Cialis, Levitra, Caverject, Uprima, Viagra, Gynecomastia Treatment and Testerone Gel from the All Saints Clinic, Cyprus (http://www.allsaintsclinic.org/) but they at least have an email address. The other one didn't.

Haritec
01-30-2015, 11:35 AM
Well - since my Test and free test were only in the lower end of the range - my doctor said he can't give me injectable Test due to some kind of regulations they have to follow up here in Canada. He did give me a script for cream from a compounding pharmacy - 100 mg / gram testosterone cream. He prescribed it such that it is based on doing 100 mg a day but told me I could save money and only do 50 mg a day. I have decided F that and am doing the 100 mg a day ( is 50 mg a pump so two pumps ). He also gave me 50 mg a day oral pregnelone. It has been about a week now and think I am starting to see some effects. Workouts have been intense this week but with less DOMS than previous. Also, starting to feel sharper at work - better concentration and focus - and less fatigued in the morning ( alarm was set for 5:15 AM today and got up about 4:20 - figured screw it feel good and awake so lets get at it ).

Suggestion was to do two pumps on my arm at night - I believe I read somewhere more conversion to DHT if applied to scrotum ?

weekend
01-30-2015, 11:44 AM
if you wanna maximize your levels, put it on neck, forehead, behind ears, scrotum. mad absorptive areas. if you need more room put on shoulders

yes more DHT with scrotal application but i bet you cant do it every day cause you might get rashy or chaffed.

dont use androgel for 2 days before bloodwork and your levels will be lower than before and he will give you shots.

Jelisej
01-30-2015, 05:13 PM
Suggestion was to do two pumps on my arm at night - I believe I read somewhere more conversion to DHT if applied to scrotum ?

As you're using gel you'll get plenty of DHT regardless so its not really neccessary to apply to scrotum.
Apply gel at upper body, muscles area, shoulders, chest. Avoid fat tissue. Thats all.
You can try increasing pregneolone at 100 mg, two split doses and see how it works.

Good luck bro'!

Haritec
03-04-2015, 08:28 AM
Got some bloods done - fairly happy with results. Doc gave me a Testosterone cream from a compounding pharmacy - blended at 100 mg / gram and enough to take two 500 mg (50 mg Test) pumps a day. I did that for the first bit and about five days before my blood work reduced to one pump a day ( thinking this would make sure my numbers were not too high). I am also taking 50 mg Pregnelone a day.

Results ( Canada so not always in typical US units)

Cortisol AM 495 (range 200-690 nmol/L)
Estradiol 106 (range 0 to 160 pmol/L)
LH <1 (range 1 - 9 )
Progesterone 4.6 (range 0 to 3.0 nmol/L ) HIGH
Testosterone 36.8 (range 8 to 29 nmol/L) HIGH
DHEA-S 9.1 (range 2.2 - 13.0 umol/L)
SHBG 59 (range 10 - 55 nmol/L ) HIGH
Free Testsosterone 643 (range 175 - 700 pmol/L)

my SHBG always seems to run high - even when my test was low. My free testosterone has gone from the bottom of the range (230 in previous test) to near the top of the range - which I am pretty happy about.

I am just trying to figure out dosing now. I would have thought that 5 days of going on one pump should have been enough to get me down lower on total testosterone. I told my doc I was doing two pumps and that I had been up late and so had done two pumps after midnight and did my blood test at 7;00 AM so that may have been why I was so high. He is keeping me on the 100 mg per day prescription dosage but has suggested I do 50 mg/day and just make it last longer and save some cash.

Pretty happy with results - I am going to add in some stinging nettle extract to see if it brings SHBG down (I did this before and seemed to respond to it).

Any thoughts or advice always appreciated.

Jelisej
03-04-2015, 06:26 PM
I think your resalts are ok, your tot. test is high but only because SHBG is high- and free test is exactly where is should be
only thing to look out is that blood does not get too thick
If SHBG does goes down than you'll probably have to reduce dose.