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Rodja
11-05-2012, 09:52 AM
One of the most common failures of trainers and trainees is to fully understand the importance of technique. Everyone wants to fix their problems with exercise when it is often technical deficiencies that are the weakness within the chain. This thread is dedicated to checking techniques within the "core four" of squat, bench, deadlifts, and overhead press.

Post away, fellow members...

winslow
11-05-2012, 10:45 AM
great idea, Rodja. hope you don't mind if i follow along. although i was doing materials management for PP, exercise science is really where my passion, expertise, and experience is.

-W-

burlyman30
11-05-2012, 12:39 PM
Great thread idea, Rodja. I hope people take advantage of this.

USN HM 350Z
11-05-2012, 01:09 PM
excellent idea. cant wait to see some videos and compare my form. I will do some videos when I get back from deployment so people can critique. what would be a good % of Max to do for a video like this?

Rodja
11-05-2012, 01:57 PM
excellent idea. cant wait to see some videos and compare my form. I will do some videos when I get back from deployment so people can critique. what would be a good % of Max to do for a video like this?

80-85% is a good place to start to examine technique. Near 100% is best to assess strength deficiencies within the kinetic chain.

BBG
11-05-2012, 03:02 PM
I think I'll take advantage of this at some point. Very good thread idea.

Jelisej
11-06-2012, 08:06 PM
I think I'll take advantage of this at some point. Very good thread idea.

X2. You dont get top-notch advices very often, and for free.

Livetolift
11-07-2012, 04:03 AM
I have recently learned quite a bit on proper form from rodja. Just the man to start this thread!

Jack O'Neill
11-07-2012, 04:36 AM
Excellent! I need this to progress. I'm certain

DJM
11-07-2012, 07:11 AM
just saw this chick at the gym benching, looked painful, had to pull out the ear phones and say, hey try putting your hand here, bring in elbows, bring bar to here......she nailed it right away and looked much smoother....her nipples were like stones through that fkn sports bra and couldnt bring myself to pointing there as a point of reference for the bar

off topic, but girls training, fuck theres a new member whos hot, spandex capris, sports bra, fake tits, sorta built, fkn trains like shes into something, hair back, tatoo on her side and one on the nape of her neck......fuck i almost went on my off day just to see

and yeah technique, squeeze the muscle if after hypertrophy, lift properly if into strength

- - - Updated - - -


Excellent! I need this to progress. I'm certain
c'est genial

O_RYAN_007
11-07-2012, 01:42 PM
I watch Dave Tate's "So you think you can bench, squat, and deadlift" video compilations at least once a week. I always have a hard time keeping my upper back tight when performing the bench. I have a pretty good arch, but I tend to lose the tightness once the weight gets heavier. My footing is getting better, as is my core tightness and my lockout. I really find the way Dave breaks things down in these videos is amazing; he's so detailed and helps get your programming right. You guys should go over to elitefts.com or youtube to find these great vids.

HIXX504
11-11-2012, 12:38 AM
I have three questions for you rodja.....

Trap bar vs barbell dead lifts. Which is better? Is the trap bar better for someone new to dead lifting? I've only been doing dead lifts for about six weeks.

How far apart should my feet be when I squat? I haven't done squats regularly since High school football(18 years ago).


How wide should my grip be when doing standing military press?

Rodja
11-11-2012, 09:05 AM
I have three questions for you rodja.....

Trap bar vs barbell dead lifts. Which is better? Is the trap bar better for someone new to dead lifting? I've only been doing dead lifts for about six weeks.

How far apart should my feet be when I squat? I haven't done squats regularly since High school football(18 years ago).


How wide should my grip be when doing standing military press?

The trap bar makes it more of a quad-dominant lift as opposed to a hip dominant lift. IMO, the trap bar is, at best, something that should be used to break up monotony or as a supplemental lift as you will seldom find someone with quads that are their weakness within the kinetic chain.

Squat foot placement is subjective and depends on bar positioning, mobility, etc. Hand placement on OHP should be about shoulder width apart or slightly wider. I use ~thumbs length outside the smooth of the bar.

HIXX504
11-11-2012, 03:55 PM
Thanks rodja. I'm gonna try to get a video up soon so you can help me more with my form.

Macdon1588
12-24-2012, 09:28 PM
So, given I know there's a lot of deep squat fans, I'm taller and my ankles are tight so going deep is difficult. Today, after catching my last rep where my form was of course terrible as I have started repetitions to failure, the trainer suggested that I not go as deep to keep my back straighter at a heavier load. Her contention is that since I am taller and getting older, that I can get just as much bang for my buck if not more if my only goal is quad work while reducing the risk of injury. I think she's on to something especially since I have a rather developed set of glut and ham work in my routine as well. Thoughts?

Rodja
12-24-2012, 10:51 PM
Here's the problem with personal trainers:

It's too easy to become one and most of them don't know jack shit outside of what is taught in their textbook. First, going to failure on squats is not a good idea. As you already touched upon, most people's technique goes to hell and injury is possible. Second, thinking that squats are a quad exercise is 100% incorrect; it is a movement that engages the thighs, hips, and, to an extent, the core and upper back. Finally, half squats will most likely lead to imbalances and tightnesses in the hips and quads.

tallstraw
12-24-2012, 11:09 PM
I can't do squats. What do you suggest instead? I can deadlifts almost perfectly, although I have been slacking at the gym alot, lately. The new year I will get back into it again. I literally can't do them. Even with no weight on my back. I can't keep my knees behind my feet, while keeping my back straight. I need soemthing else. I have a shorter torso with long legs lol I was thinking just ol faithful legpress. I'm done trying or hearing people say you can, you just don't want to. I have tried every tip people give me, can't do it. That's how I hurt my knee overseas finally. So I need soemthing to replace it.

Rodja
12-24-2012, 11:15 PM
Can you sit on a toilet? If so, then you can squat.

tallstraw
12-24-2012, 11:20 PM
Can you sit on a toilet? If so, then you can squat.

Not without my knees past my toes

- - - Updated - - -

Want a picture, since apparently my word isn't shit

Rodja
12-24-2012, 11:21 PM
Not without my knees past my toes

- - - Updated - - -

Want a picture, since apparently my word isn't shit

I want video, not a picture.

tallstraw
12-24-2012, 11:22 PM
Gimme a few, I'll get in my birthday suit too.

Macdon1588
12-25-2012, 12:31 AM
Here's the problem with personal trainers:

It's too easy to become one and most of them don't know jack shit outside of what is taught in their textbook. First, going to failure on squats is not a good idea. As you already touched upon, most people's technique goes to hell and injury is possible. Second, thinking that squats are a quad exercise is 100% incorrect; it is a movement that engages the thighs, hips, and, to an extent, the core and upper back. Finally, half squats will most likely lead to imbalances and tightnesses in the hips and quads.

I am just experimenting with what works in terms of training to failure, and in this case perhaps a few half squats would enable me to get a point of failure safely. And don't get me wrong, I understand the many virtues of squats, but the fact remains squats are a weak point for me. If I follow conventional form with proper feet spacing, I never feel stable parallel or below it. Part of it is physiology and part is psychology. I hurt my back five years ago to the pain was unbearable and it took months to rehab it as well as a major life change so I baby my lower back... and stay weaker than acceptable. So I have started to use a wide stance and go as close to parallel as possible. It feels better and the last couple months I've seen growth, it just feels like I am cheating. Are there cons to a wide stance?

Sorrow
12-25-2012, 07:27 AM
I am just experimenting with what works in terms of training to failure, and in this case perhaps a few half squats would enable me to get a point of failure safely. And don't get me wrong, I understand the many virtues of squats, but the fact remains squats are a weak point for me. If I follow conventional form with proper feet spacing, I never feel stable parallel or below it. Part of it is physiology and part is psychology. I hurt my back five years ago to the pain was unbearable and it took months to rehab it as well as a major life change so I baby my lower back... and stay weaker than acceptable. So I have started to use a wide stance and go as close to parallel as possible. It feels better and the last couple months I've seen growth, it just feels like I am cheating. Are there cons to a wide stance?

It isn't cheating. just a different style. It will also lead to muscle groups being targeted in different ways/angles. Also not really a bad thing. But if your doing them for physique reason be aware of that.

A few links, food for thought:

I May Not Know Diddley... But I Know Squat! | Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield (http://drsquat.com/content/knowledge-base/i-may-not-know-diddley-i-know-squat)

A Case for Wide Squats (http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/a-case-for-wide-squats/)

USA Powerlifting Online Newsletter (http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/11/coaching/coaching.html)

http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1320&context=gs_theses&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt %26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dchandler%252C%2520t.j.%252C%2520% 2526%2520stone%252C%2520m.h.%252C%2520the%2520squa t%2520exercise%2520in%2520athletic%2520conditionin g%253A%2520a%2520review%2520of%2520the%2520literat ure.%2520national%2520strength%2520and%2520conditi oning%2520association%2520journal%252C%252013%285% 29%252C%25201991.%2520%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26v ed%3D0CDQQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fdigitalc ommons.uconn.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Fa rticle%253D1320%2526context%253Dgs_theses%26ei%3D6 aXZUNv4H8eC0QHUs4HoDA%26usg%3DAFQjCNEf5hUw-aZ1XLpPktPPAkCHlLPadg%26bvm%3Dbv.1355534169%2Cd.dm Q#search=%22chandler%2C%20t.j.%2C%20%26%20stone%2C %20m.h.%2C%20squat%20exercise%20athletic%20conditi oning%3A%20review%20literature.%20national%20stren gth%20conditioning%20association%20journal%2C%2013 %285%29%2C%201991.%22

Rodja
12-25-2012, 07:48 AM
I am just experimenting with what works in terms of training to failure, and in this case perhaps a few half squats would enable me to get a point of failure safely. And don't get me wrong, I understand the many virtues of squats, but the fact remains squats are a weak point for me. If I follow conventional form with proper feet spacing, I never feel stable parallel or below it. Part of it is physiology and part is psychology. I hurt my back five years ago to the pain was unbearable and it took months to rehab it as well as a major life change so I baby my lower back... and stay weaker than acceptable. So I have started to use a wide stance and go as close to parallel as possible. It feels better and the last couple months I've seen growth, it just feels like I am cheating. Are there cons to a wide stance?

If you've reached the point where you cannot do a full ROM squat, then you've already achieved failure. A wide stance requires more upkeep in terms of hip mobility and foam rolling, but it is by no means cheating as long as you hit depth (top of the patella parallel with the hip).

Macdon1588
12-25-2012, 09:03 AM
Funny you mentioned foam rolling. The wife surprised me with a rumble roller. I'll work on the hip mobility stuff, and you also have a great point on the definition of failure in a squat. Thank you for your input.

Macdon1588
12-25-2012, 09:04 AM
It isn't cheating. just a different style. It will also lead to muscle groups being targeted in different ways/angles. Also not really a bad thing. But if your doing them for physique reason be aware of that.

A few links, food for thought:

I May Not Know Diddley... But I Know Squat! | Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield (http://drsquat.com/content/knowledge-base/i-may-not-know-diddley-i-know-squat)

A Case for Wide Squats (http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/a-case-for-wide-squats/)

USA Powerlifting Online Newsletter (http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/11/coaching/coaching.html)

http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1320&context=gs_theses&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt %26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dchandler%252C%2520t.j.%252C%2520% 2526%2520stone%252C%2520m.h.%252C%2520the%2520squa t%2520exercise%2520in%2520athletic%2520conditionin g%253A%2520a%2520review%2520of%2520the%2520literat ure.%2520national%2520strength%2520and%2520conditi oning%2520association%2520journal%252C%252013%285% 29%252C%25201991.%2520%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26v ed%3D0CDQQFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fdigitalc ommons.uconn.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Fa rticle%253D1320%2526context%253Dgs_theses%26ei%3D6 aXZUNv4H8eC0QHUs4HoDA%26usg%3DAFQjCNEf5hUw-aZ1XLpPktPPAkCHlLPadg%26bvm%3Dbv.1355534169%2Cd.dm Q#search=%22chandler%2C%20t.j.%2C%20%26%20stone%2C %20m.h.%2C%20squat%20exercise%20athletic%20conditi oning%3A%20review%20literature.%20national%20stren gth%20conditioning%20association%20journal%2C%2013 %285%29%2C%201991.%22
Thanks for these.

derekh83
01-09-2013, 02:49 PM
I can't do squats. What do you suggest instead? I can deadlifts almost perfectly, although I have been slacking at the gym alot, lately. The new year I will get back into it again. I literally can't do them. Even with no weight on my back. I can't keep my knees behind my feet, while keeping my back straight. I need soemthing else. I have a shorter torso with long legs lol I was thinking just ol faithful legpress. I'm done trying or hearing people say you can, you just don't want to. I have tried every tip people give me, can't do it. That's how I hurt my knee overseas finally. So I need soemthing to replace it.

First off, let me say I am not an expert or anything close. Tallstraw your build sounds exactly like mine. I'm 6'1" 225lbs, longer legs and short torso. I also have knee and extreme lower back issues due to my 10years in the military. I have always had a problem squatting and just never did it because we ran so much for training. I am also not flexible at all. I cant touch my toes. I got fed up with my scrawny weak ass legs and decided I would figure out the squat.

Things that helped me: (Rodja if any of these a wrong please let me know!!!)
feet position and angle - I figured out that if I jump in the air and land with bend knees, that is a decent feet position for my squat (slightly wider that shoulders). I also angle my feet out about 45 degrees. This helped my knee pain the most.

Lifting barefoot - This allows me to keep the weight back and my knees behind my toes. With shoes on I tend lean forward on the balls of my feet rather then back onto my heals.

Frequency - Squatting multiple times a week allow my body to get use to the discomfort of the movement.

Squatting to a lower than parallel platform - This ensured that I did not cheat myself on my depth by only go half way down.

Weighted Walking Lunges - This helped me with my balance and over all squat performance.

I have been lifting for over 10years but only seriously squatting for 3 or 4 years. Stupid I know. When I started 135lbs was painful but now I have hit 405lbs for 3 reps. This may not be great for strength athletes, but for me is huge. Just check you pride/ego at the door and go for it.

Rodja
01-09-2013, 02:55 PM
I think the guy just doesn't want to squat. Like I said, if the guy can take a shit, then he can squat.

Scope75
01-09-2013, 03:16 PM
I think the guy just doesn't want to squat. Like I said, if the guy can take a shit, then he can squat.

Squats and Deads are the main reasons I lift!!!
Both those lifts do so much more than just work out your body.

derekh83
01-09-2013, 03:27 PM
Alot of it was mind set. I forced myself to like the squat and now that I see my hard work paying off I love them. Also my body is crazy pumped the next day and I feel like I gain 5lbs.

Scope75
01-09-2013, 03:54 PM
Lol
I know exactly what your talking about feeling like you gained 5 pounds the next day. Love that feeling.

Macdon1588
01-14-2013, 03:37 PM
What's the consensus on high rep squatting? I ask because I'm working on my form, my ankle flexibility, and my hip mobility and in order to do so I'm having to go to a lighter weight on my squat. Is it worth the time?

Rodja
01-14-2013, 03:43 PM
What's the consensus on high rep squatting? I ask because I'm working on my form, my ankle flexibility, and my hip mobility and in order to do so I'm having to go to a lighter weight on my squat. Is it worth the time?

What does the rep range have to do with working on the other issues?

Macdon1588
01-14-2013, 03:48 PM
What does the rep range have to do with working on the other issues?

Not much I suppose, other than I'm going lighter to keep my form cleaner. I guess I just mentioned those issues as a reason why I am going lighter. So I guess, really a better way to ask is, can higher reps still lead to progress in strength and or size?

Rodja
01-14-2013, 04:02 PM
Not much I suppose, other than I'm going lighter to keep my form cleaner. I guess I just mentioned those issues as a reason why I am going lighter. So I guess, really a better way to ask is, can higher reps still lead to progress in strength and or size?

Alone, no, they will not increase strength. Hypertrophy is not a cut and dry issue, but high reps tend to become about muscular endurance and often leads to really shitty form since there will most likely be some major muscular imbalances. The hamstrings and glutes are the often the first to go and leads to rounding of the lumbar.

Macdon1588
01-14-2013, 04:11 PM
Alone, no, they will not increase strength. Hypertrophy is not a cut and dry issue, but high reps tend to become about muscular endurance and often leads to really shitty form since there will most likely be some major muscular imbalances. The hamstrings and glutes are the often the first to go and leads to rounding of the lumbar.
What you say makes sense. I am concerned with form over that amount of reps. I've decided that lifting wise, this will be the year of getting my squat in order. It's just hard to decide on the best plan of action, but I'm getting there. What's your thoughts on safety bars?

Rodja
01-14-2013, 04:24 PM
What you say makes sense. I am concerned with form over that amount of reps. I've decided that lifting wise, this will be the year of getting my squat in order. It's just hard to decide on the best plan of action, but I'm getting there. What's your thoughts on safety bars?

I love the SSB, but if someone can't squat properly with a straight bar, then they shouldn't be using a SSB. It's a simliar, yet different movement pattern that heavily involves the upper back and core.

Macdon1588
01-14-2013, 05:53 PM
I love the SSB, but if someone can't squat properly with a straight bar, then they shouldn't be using a SSB. It's a simliar, yet different movement pattern that heavily involves the upper back and core.

Good to know. I believe I am going to buy one as soon as I can squat the cost in pounds that the ssb cost for two reps. I'm about a hundred pounds from that mark.

Izzetmaster
04-28-2013, 02:36 PM
I hope someone would be down to check my squat and deadlift form. I can try to get a video up ASAP.

Sorrow
04-28-2013, 02:49 PM
I hope someone would be down to check my squat and deadlift form. I can try to get a video up ASAP.

Post something up, I'm sure you'll get feedback.

Dcabedo
04-28-2013, 10:45 PM
What a freaken coincidence, I was just thinking about posting some video up on the major lifts for some critiquing. Should have video up very soon!

Dcabedo
04-30-2013, 12:32 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d487OVbEx0


This is a normal set of squats for me. I would usually do 315 lbs 5x5. But tonight was all squats and calf raises. I managed to hit my old PR at 365 lbs and set a new one at 375 lbs.

Let me know what you think!

weekend
04-30-2013, 01:41 AM
I like to put my hands closer on the bar as it helps tighten up my upper back and force more thoracic extension..

Other than that, looks good to me but I'm not an expert. I'd probably go like 2 inches lower.

Dcabedo
04-30-2013, 02:03 AM
I like to put my hands closer on the bar as it helps tighten up my upper back and force more thoracic extension..

Other than that, looks good to me but I'm not an expert. I'd probably go like 2 inches lower.

Will try placing my hands closer next time. As for depth, I try and get as low as I can but everytime I go lower then parallel my knees feel like theyre about to rip right out. I actually put on my neoprene knee wraps after the 4th set i think

weekend
04-30-2013, 02:32 AM
It looked low enough anyway, I like to go until my hamstrings hit my calves, seems to lessen stress on my knees, but maybe that's just me.


Just read somewhere (ergo log I think) that knee wraps actually make it worse for your knee

Dcabedo
04-30-2013, 02:50 AM
Just read that ergo log, really didn't know it was bad. But thanks for the input, will have video up of deadlift and bench later on this week.

Rodja
04-30-2013, 07:38 AM
Your squats are far too knee dominant and neglect using the hips, which is why you feel uncomfortable going lower. If you want to continue using the same approach, then you'll need to bring in your stance and mimic an Oly style squat. Your stance is closer to a wide stance squat and you'll need to limit knee flexion with that kind of stance. You'll need to push your ass back and flare your knees out hard in the movement. Your knees don't collapse, but you're not pushing them out to activate the hips and hamstrings.

It's hard to tell because the camera is constantly moving and the shorts, but they looked above parallel because so much of your movement is knee flexion and not hip flexion.

Dcabedo
04-30-2013, 12:04 PM
You'll need to push your ass back and flare your knees out hard in the movement. Your knees don't collapse, but you're not pushing them out to activate the hips and hamstrings.




That video is actually how I would normally squat. But all the sets after that, I pretty much concentrated on flaring my knees out more.
It did feel awkward at first but im sure it wont be long till I can get it down...Ill post better video of what I think it is the right way and you can correct me from there. should be up next week monday.

How much closer should I bring my stance in?

Rodja
04-30-2013, 12:10 PM
That video is actually how I would normally squat. But all the sets after that, I pretty much concentrated on flaring my knees out more.
It did feel awkward at first but im sure it wont be long till I can get it down...Ill post better video of what I think it is the right way and you can correct me from there. should be up next week monday.

How much closer should I bring my stance in?

Have them slightly wider than shoulder-width. What kind of shoes were you wearing?

Dcabedo
04-30-2013, 12:22 PM
I was wearing the new balance minimus life that night.

Sorrow
04-30-2013, 03:07 PM
Yep, what Rodja said. I mostly watched how the point of your knee came forward toward your toes. Working on sitting back and pushing your knees out would probably alleviate a great deal of your knee pain.

O_RYAN_007
04-30-2013, 03:08 PM
Yep, what Rodja said. I mostly watched how the point of your knee came forward toward your toes. Working on sitting back and pushing your knees out would probably alleviate a great deal of your knee pain.

Sitting back and pushing knees out helped my knee pain big time.

Dcabedo
04-30-2013, 03:17 PM
Yeah I actually tried it for a few sets and it felt alot better. Awkward at first cause it was something new for me but I got used to it. Next thing I need to do is kick my stance in a bit and go from there.

Dcabedo
05-03-2013, 12:27 AM
http://youtu.be/b05f79QZEvM



405x4

Felt sluggish all day so it felt like a crappy lift. Then again, there should be no excuses.

LBC-83
05-03-2013, 06:43 AM
You can see your heels coming off the ground.

Back appears to lose arch often.

Hard to tell from the angle but I want to say you are squeezing your knees in as opposed to out. That's gotta be painful if thats the case.

Ass is coming up first then you are lifting your back. Attempt to keep both working in conjuction instead of one then the other.

Rodja
05-03-2013, 08:35 AM
Outside of the fact that you never locked out the rep, you're lumbar is rounded, there's zero leg drive, you don't pull the slack out of the bar, and your shoulders drift ahead of the bar after the initial pull off of the ground.

How tall are you?

Dcabedo
05-03-2013, 10:33 AM
You can see your heels coming off the ground.

Back appears to lose arch often.

Hard to tell from the angle but I want to say you are squeezing your knees in as opposed to out. That's gotta be painful if thats the case.

Ass is coming up first then you are lifting your back. Attempt to keep both working in conjuction instead of one then the other.

Outside of the fact that you never locked out the rep, you're lumbar is rounded, there's zero leg drive, you don't pull the slack out of the bar, and your shoulders drift ahead of the bar after the initial pull off of the ground.

How tall are you?

-Don't know what happened for this lift but i always try to keep my feet planted
-This is the first time I recorded on the DL so first thing I noticed when I seen video was my back
-I always try to never let my knees buckle in, never felt knee pain when deadlifting

Rodja

I am 6ft tall...Tips on fixing everything?

VayneZ
06-27-2015, 11:43 PM
Trying to revive this post as per booklifter's idea:

I recently started focusing more on Sumo's. Please let me know every last thing I should NOW be fixing, before I continue to grow stronger.

5 x 405 sumo @ 190 bodyweight - YouTube : 5 x 405 sumo @ 190 bodyweight - YouTube (https://youtu.be/RegYbYwLmgE)
505 1RM Sumo @ 190 - YouTube - 505 1RM Sumo @ 190 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/BlC7Yw5kDlE)