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Pageidol
02-25-2015, 11:28 AM
Hello there everybody. Before i start i really do like the website.

Anyway, ive got myself in some awful trouble. Last year March i began takin what i thought were vitamins called hair life vitamins just for nicer head of hair i guess thinking nothing to it. I suddenly began experiencing testicular pain, swollen glands and for the first time in my life no morning erections, no libido and for the life of me i couldnt get an erection...it was insane!. After 3 weeks i worked out what was going on..they contained Saw Palmetto extract. I researched this herb and received a whole education on DHT, 5 alpha and the rest, i was shocked

Two months later i was still struggling with erections. I began looking into T boosters. Fenugreek(testofen) was highly recommended to me and i did my own research. It sounded good testosterone increases and the rest. I began takin it. After a few weeks the same symptons arose which saw palmetto gave me. The worse thing was my flaccid penis shrunk, like having a cold shower all the time...bloody awful!! I couldnt believe it. I then researched into how fenugreek works....another DHT blocker! and it increases prolactin!!!

By the end of august, my libido was dead, no random erections, no morning erections, shrunken flaccid, no zest for life, reduced ejactulate, numbness!! We are now in febuary and im no better off, ive began taking tongkat ali.

My test levels are low around 11nmol. Im 28 years old.

Has anyone else experienced this? More importanly has anybody recovered?

Im worried sick hoping I havent caused any permanent damage but as of yet my system just hasnt normalised.

I was absolutley fine 12 months ago.

James

Freepressright
02-26-2015, 09:28 AM
Hello there everybody. Before i start i really do like the website.

Anyway, ive got myself in some awful trouble. Last year March i began takin what i thought were vitamins called hair life vitamins just for nicer head of hair i guess thinking nothing to it. I suddenly began experiencing testicular pain, swollen glands and for the first time in my life no morning erections, no libido and for the life of me i couldnt get an erection...it was insane!. After 3 weeks i worked out what was going on..they contained Saw Palmetto extract. I researched this herb and received a whole education on DHT, 5 alpha and the rest, i was shocked

Two months later i was still struggling with erections. I began looking into T boosters. Fenugreek(testofen) was highly recommended to me and i did my own research. It sounded good testosterone increases and the rest. I began takin it. After a few weeks the same symptons arose which saw palmetto gave me. The worse thing was my flaccid penis shrunk, like having a cold shower all the time...bloody awful!! I couldnt believe it. I then researched into how fenugreek works....another DHT blocker! and it increases prolactin!!!

By the end of august, my libido was dead, no random erections, no morning erections, shrunken flaccid, no zest for life, reduced ejactulate, numbness!! We are now in febuary and im no better off, ive began taking tongkat ali.

My test levels are low around 11nmol. Im 28 years old.

Has anyone else experienced this? More importanly has anybody recovered?

Im worried sick hoping I havent caused any permanent damage but as of yet my system just hasnt normalised.

I was absolutley fine 12 months ago.

James

Fenugreek is fucking god awful and did the same thing to me! I had a sustained loss of sex drive, no morning erections, no random erections, a total loss of interest in sex, tiredness, brain fog, etc. This shit was awful.

Recovery takes time. Do not give up.

Immediately, you need to get on:

High potency tongkat. Buy the bulk powder from amazon.
Liftmode tribulus 90% standardized powder, dosed at 1,000mg 3x per day
Liquid boron from Swanson
Ashwaghanda from Swanson
Daily creatine supplementation (monohydrate, load it at 5 grams, four times daily for a week then dial dose back to 5 grams once daily). Or you can use Creatine Hydrochloride at 3 grams per day.
A tocotrienol supplement like Jarrow's Toco Sorb

Pageidol
02-26-2015, 09:39 AM
cheers dude. distressed isnt the word. may I ask how long you took it for? Have you recovered from it? Its an anti-androgen...what the fucks it doing in workout supplements.

Dht is a mans primary hormone!!!! Are these people stupid.

Freepressright
02-26-2015, 09:45 AM
Because idiots in the vitamin and supplement world use their own ignorance as marketing points.

These are herbal castration agents to those sensitive to them. I think there needs to be a better effort to educate companies putting this shit out there that they may be destroying lives with the products.

I schooled Jim Stoppani about it. He has a PhD in supplement science and does a lot to educate folks on bad industry practices, yet he preaches the myths about how DHT is a bad thing (it causes aggression, he said, harms your prostate and makes you bald). Nevermind the fact that you couldn't have any sexual benefits of testosterone without it. Nevermind the fact it raises thyroid hormone and improves body composition. Nevermind that it can successfully treat depression and brain fog.

Fuck these ignorant people.

Things have improved a lot for me. But recovery might be a long road. Do not give up. Do the things I told you. You must have a multi-faceted approach to recovery.

I would also strongly encourage you to buy whole grain sorghum and boil it for an hour in chicken stock and eat it like rice every day. It is proven through studies to be pro-DHT, as is boron, creatine and ashwaghanda.

hossam
02-26-2015, 11:14 AM
Fenugreek is fucking god awful and did the same thing to me! I had a sustained loss of sex drive, no morning erections, no random erections, a total loss of interest in sex, tiredness, brain fog, etc. This shit was awful.

Recovery takes time. Do not give up.

Immediately, you need to get on:

High potency tongkat. Buy the bulk powder from amazon.
Liftmode tribulus 90% standardized powder, dosed at 1,000mg 3x per day
Liquid boron from Swanson
Ashwaghanda from Swanson
Daily creatine supplementation (monohydrate, load it at 5 grams, four times daily for a week then dial dose back to 5 grams once daily). Or you can use Creatine Hydrochloride at 3 grams per day.
A tocotrienol supplement like Jarrow's Toco Sorb

++

Vitamin D3
DAA
squat without wight every day before you go to bed 10x10
EPIandro
ZMA
Royal jelly Now brand
for Toco i highly recommend Eric's Botanical craft palm fruit powder
and RES100

Pageidol
02-26-2015, 11:29 AM
Dude how long has it being since you ceased the supplement?
What made you take it? Thanks man...ive not hot morning wood or a libido, proper erections for months. Ive just began on tongkat and creatine.
Do you believe we will fully recover?

Hossam,
DAA, d aspartic acid, actually increases prolactin too which i dont want and the RES100, resverotrol is another 5 alpha reductase compound a dht blocker.

Cheers

entropy
02-26-2015, 11:37 AM
Your information is wrong. For one, 5 alpha reductase is the enzyme that converts test to dht. It's the enzyme blocked by 5 alpha reductase -inhibitors-. And resveratrol -doesnt- impact on that enzyme. Else trust me we wouldn't rate it so highly. Secondly prolactin sides can be offset with macuna pruriens.

Yes. You will most likely make a full recovery with work. Some of us have come back from much worse. Over TIME.

Pageidol
02-26-2015, 11:45 AM
Yes sorry i worded that badly but run one search on resveratrol 5alpha reductase inhibitor or dht blocker on the web and there are countless websites stating its actions however i cant find any published studies but i dont want to go near anything remotely connected to inhibition now, only pro DHT.

James

Mad Mardigan
02-26-2015, 07:56 PM
Join the pro dht club! Lol we love our dht here, and rightfully so. We're men. Dammit. :cool:

Pageidol
03-06-2015, 10:32 AM
Blood results back. Testosterone 11nmol...low!! This must be with causing a hormonal upset. But the docs have all assured me that over the next few months your body will slowly restore itself.

Fenugreek and resverotrol did the worst but there is no way it can be harmful as finasteride.

James

entropy
03-06-2015, 11:04 AM
Blood results back. Testosterone 11nmol...low!! This must be with causing a hormonal upset. But the docs have all assured me that over the next few months your body will slowly restore itself.

Fenugreek and resverotrol did the worst but there is no way it can be harmful as finasteride.

James
No-one has ever, EVER had a problem with resveratrol. I use res100 and will use it again and I got finasterided a while back. I'd never take saw palmetto or fenugreek but I know of at least one other fin victim who contributes resveratrol to his recovery and another member here who also recovered who speaks highly of it. Get on cds regime asap.

Freepressright
03-06-2015, 12:23 PM
No-one has ever, EVER had a problem with resveratrol. I use res100 and will use it again and I got finasterided a while back. I'd never take saw palmetto or fenugreek but I know of at least one other fin victim who contributes resveratrol to his recovery and another member here who also recovered who speaks highly of it. Get on cds regime asap.

In all the years I've been on the forum with CDs, I don't think I've ever actually seen his recovery protocol. I'd love to, though.

entropy
03-06-2015, 12:31 PM
Started in 2003
Stopped in 2007
Healed (100%) summer of 2012

I'm not going to go into all of the things I tried that had minimal results. I'm just going to give you the meat of it.

Fast. Just once, for two weeks or more if you can.

If you can't fast for any reason then do a juicefeast. Home - Juice FeastingJuice Feasting | 4 Quarts a Day to Health: Cleanse, Rebuild, Rehydrate, Alkalize (http://www.juicefeasting.com) for a month or more. No need to do the whole 90 day program unless you care to.

You need to cleanse before you start anything. It will make your body so much more receptive to positive change.

Diet and lifestyle are absolute cornerstones in recovery.

Eat a paleo type diet and carb back load at night depending on your exercise regimine. Carb backloading is fantastic for manipulating hormones. If you're not sure what it is, google it.

Avoid gluten......this one food is so problematic I can't begin to go into it.

Lift heavy weights three times per week, but don't overdue it if your really in the shitter.....

Do HIIT once per week at first, then go to twice per week. I did sprints.

Cycle testosterone boosting supplements as outlined at Boost Your Low Testosterone! Increase Low T Levels Naturally (http://www.boost-your-low-testosterone.com) . As a matter of fact, most of what I did to recover can be found in one place at this site. He also goes into carb back loading.

****I also did several cycles of a DHT compound from primordial performance which helped in increasing the active enzymes that were wiped out by propecia. Unfortunately they have been shutdown by the FDA. There are other DHT based steroids that you could use, but I am not familiar with any others then androhard from primordial. Don't just jump into using these products unless you do your research. You don't want to end up worse then you are now. I had access to the producer of these drugs and he spent alot of time going back and forth with me on the science of how they work to increase active 5arII. It's a can of worms I'm not going to get into but didn't want to fail to mention it as I attribute the use of androhard and successful post cycle therapies to my overall recovery.

Meditate. You have to quiet your mind. You have to stop focusing on your problems. Focus on anything other then what is wrong with you. If you need to, stop coming to this site and reading the horror stories. You understand what happened to you, now move on. This one thing will set you in the right direction and make a HUGE improvement in your life. This will also help with sleep.

Take: B complex. Magnesium complex (the kind you dissolve in water works best) Fish oils. Take everyday at first, then go to every couple of days.

Stay hydrated.

Avoid intoxicants of any kind. You will be able to indulge again one day, just not today.

All of these things done consistently over TIME will yield you results. It can't not work. You just have to be diligent. How much do you want it?

Hope you don't mind, CD.

Cdsnuts
03-06-2015, 02:21 PM
In all the years I've been on the forum with CDs, I don't think I've ever actually seen his recovery protocol. I'd love to, though.
You wouldn't have. There was never any need for me to get into that on this forum.

Cdsnuts
03-06-2015, 02:23 PM
Hope you don't mind, CD.
Nah.....dont mind. It's been quite a while since I've seen that post. Looking at it again now, that was exactly what I said it was, just the bones of it. There were also little intricacies here and there that totaled out the program.

But seeing as 90% of the guys couldn't even stay on the barebones version, there was no sense in me adding anymore to it.

I never understood it...guys were offing themselves because they're stuck in such a desperate state, yet most of them just couldn't follow a simple program to get themselves on the road to being better. It always amazed me. I would have (and did) done anything.

Seeing as we're on this whole topic, I've been experimenting over the past two years with some exponentially more powerful herbs then the ones I recommended in that recovery post. As a matter of fact, if I had to do it again, I would recommend a better, stronger more effective group of herbs then I did a few years ago. I'm finding these new experiments so good, that this summer is going to be my last time using exogenous hormones. (Just because I have one last batch of AHv3 and AMv3.)

I'm actually gonna get a blood test to see where things are at because I've been feeling completely juiced lately, and I'm 100% natty.

Maybe it's just a cumulative effect of me living my life the way I outlined in that post. I've never stopped doing all of those things. It's been years. It's just my way of life now. That being said, the inclusion of these new herbs have really taken things to the next level. I feel better now at 37 then I did at 27. I've never been one to do bloods but I'm so curious lately.

entropy
03-06-2015, 03:42 PM
Dude anything you have to share is fucking' golden in my book, I've tweaked your regime around myself but i've adjusted it a few times.

Freepressright
03-10-2015, 06:15 AM
Nah.....dont mind. It's been quite a while since I've seen that post. Looking at it again now, that was exactly what I said it was, just the bones of it. There were also little intricacies here and there that totaled out the program.

But seeing as 90% of the guys couldn't even stay on the barebones version, there was no sense in me adding anymore to it.

I never understood it...guys were offing themselves because they're stuck in such a desperate state, yet most of them just couldn't follow a simple program to get themselves on the road to being better. It always amazed me. I would have (and did) done anything.

Seeing as we're on this whole topic, I've been experimenting over the past two years with some exponentially more powerful herbs then the ones I recommended in that recovery post. As a matter of fact, if I had to do it again, I would recommend a better, stronger more effective group of herbs then I did a few years ago. I'm finding these new experiments so good, that this summer is going to be my last time using exogenous hormones. (Just because I have one last batch of AHv3 and AMv3.)

I'm actually gonna get a blood test to see where things are at because I've been feeling completely juiced lately, and I'm 100% natty.

Maybe it's just a cumulative effect of me living my life the way I outlined in that post. I've never stopped doing all of those things. It's been years. It's just my way of life now. That being said, the inclusion of these new herbs have really taken things to the next level. I feel better now at 37 then I did at 27. I've never been one to do bloods but I'm so curious lately.

Is Liftmode Tribulus one of the potent extracts you speak of?

Cdsnuts
03-10-2015, 07:06 AM
Is Liftmode Tribulus one of the potent extracts you speak of?

Not per se. I had trib as one of the supplements to cycle in my original regimen. Obviously the liftmode stuff is WAY better then any trib I've ever used. That would be another supp. I'd tell people to use based on the brand alone.

entropy
03-10-2015, 07:35 AM
Not per se. I had trib as one of the supplements to cycle in my original regimen. Obviously the liftmode stuff is WAY better then any trib I've ever used. That would be another supp. I'd tell people to use based on the brand alone.

When you get a chance could you share some of your secrets dude? I have my eye on a new female and I really, really need to up my game.
Also, I can't find tribulus on liftmodes page. Do they only stock things when they have them/will I still be able to try it eventually?

Freepressright
03-10-2015, 09:02 AM
When you get a chance could you share some of your secrets dude? I have my eye on a new female and I really, really need to up my game.
Also, I can't find tribulus on liftmodes page. Do they only stock things when they have them/will I still be able to try it eventually?

It's always in stock here:

Robot Check (http://www.amazon.com/Tribulus-Terrestris-Extract-Grams-Saponins/dp/B00DCDPR6O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425999681&sr=8-1&keywords=liftmode+tribulus)

I also recommend ashwaghanda, tongkat ali and 40% icariin from Powder City - Nootropics Powders and Bulk Supplements | Powder City (http://www.powdercity.com)

entropy
03-10-2015, 09:46 AM
It's always in stock here:

Robot Check (http://www.amazon.com/Tribulus-Terrestris-Extract-Grams-Saponins/dp/B00DCDPR6O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425999681&sr=8-1&keywords=liftmode+tribulus)

I also recommend ashwaghanda, tongkat ali and 40% icariin from Powder City - Nootropics Powders and Bulk Supplements | Powder City (http://www.powdercity.com)

I'm definitely going to pick up a tub to try out when I get paid. I like ashwaganda and tongkat quite a lot but I have some 60% icariin that don't really like.

Freepressright
03-10-2015, 11:36 AM
I'm definitely going to pick up a tub to try out when I get paid. I like ashwaganda and tongkat quite a lot but I have some 60% icariin that don't really like.

I read from a few people that 40% Icariin is the sweet spot for HGW. They said that if the standardization is too low it sucks and if it's super high it tends to be negligible. I have not experimented with this for myself, though.

What don't you like about the 60%?

entropy
03-10-2015, 12:51 PM
I read from a few people that 40% Icariin is the sweet spot for HGW. They said that if the standardization is too low it sucks and if it's super high it tends to be negligible. I have not experimented with this for myself, though.

What don't you like about the 60%?

This might sound weird but I makes me feel kinda "estrogen-y" emotionally. Physically the effects are negligible but it might just be the brand. I'll try a 40% extract after this bottle is done and if I don't see great results I'll drop it in favour of something else. I'm planning on running a bottle of androhardv3 in the next couple of weeks though so itll probably be a few months before I get around to trying a different bottle of icariin.

Cdsnuts
03-11-2015, 02:13 PM
You guys want to take your natty experience to the next level, do yourself a favor and grab:

Pine Pollen
Polyrhachis Ant Extract
Cistanche
He Shou Wu
Schisandra
Guduchi
Maral Root.
Shilajit pitch
Tongkat Ali (Theirs is the best I've ever had)

I get all of these from Super Man Herbs - Pine Pollen, Mushrooms, Shilajit and More (https://jt231.isrefer.com/go/supermanherbs/cdsnuts/) Their stuff is legit the best quality stuff I have ever experienced.....ever. I'm walking around these days feeling almost bullet proof. It's nothing short of amazing. Obviously it helps if your already healthy and diet and exercise is in check. And, this should go without saying but this stuff works with your body, not against it. It builds you up, not shuts you down. If you're enhanced at all I'm not sure if it's even worth it to spend the money. You should be off all exogenous hormones to utilize these.

I take the pine pollen everyday. Two big tablespoons. I love it. The others I cycle. I take each herb no more then two days in a row and then jump on to the next one. Cycling like this takes away your bodies chance at adapting to the herb and making it less effective. Every time you take the new herb, it hits you strong, like the very first time you took it.

This cycling strategy was one of the major components of my regimen. I used different herbs then this at the time, but these are way, way better. At present I have almost 20 different herbs that I cycle through every three weeks, never using one more then two days in a row. This has allowed me to send my Test through the roof and keep my estrogen at a good level. These herbs modulate your endocrine system to function at it's highest.

Downside is your gonna drop a couple bucks to get up and running. But believe me when I tell you, this stuff is worth every penny.

entropy
03-11-2015, 08:56 PM
Cdnuts man I wish you'd share the stuff you know more often here, I've heard of some (not all) of these herbs but never heard of anyone with any experience with them. Androsterone is found in pine pollen apparently.

Cdsnuts
03-12-2015, 05:19 AM
Cdnuts man I wish you'd share the stuff you know more often here, I've heard of some (not all) of these herbs but never heard of anyone with any experience with them. Androsterone is found in pine pollen apparently.

Pine pollen has been one of the best discoveries to date. Not only does it have androsterone in it, but Testosterone, DHEA and androstendione. Best part is this stuff DOES NOT shut you down with continued use! Because they're phyto-androgens they work with your bodies endocrine system. The benefits are too much to write, but the site I directed you to does a fantastic job at breaking them all down. You should feel like a kid in a candy store at that site.....I do.

One of the other things I feel is so great about these herbs is the fact that when you're taking them you can pretty much ditch the synthetic vitamins and minerals you've been taking. ALL of these are loaded with high amounts of bio available minerals, vitamins, phyto-sterols, enzymes, etc. This is why they are so good at aiding the body. They are also power houses of nutrients. Probably the other reason I've been feeling so damn good.

I have very intimate knowledge of all of the herbs I listed here and more. If you have questions, just ask.

Freepressright
03-12-2015, 08:35 AM
You guys want to take your natty experience to the next level, do yourself a favor and grab:

Pine Pollen
Polyrhachis Ant Extract
Cistanche
He Shou Wu
Schisandra
Guduchi
Maral Root.
Shilajit pitch
Tongkat Ali (Theirs is the best I've ever had)

I get all of these from Super Man Herbs - Pine Pollen, Mushrooms, Shilajit and More (http://supermanherbs.com/) Their stuff is legit the best quality stuff I have ever experienced.....ever. I'm walking around these days feeling almost bullet proof. It's nothing short of amazing. Obviously it helps if your already healthy and diet and exercise is in check. And, this should go without saying but this stuff works with your body, not against it. It builds you up, not shuts you down. If you're enhanced at all I'm not sure if it's even worth it to spend the money. You should be off all exogenous hormones to utilize these.

I take the pine pollen everyday. Two big tablespoons. I love it. The others I cycle. I take each herb no more then two days in a row and then jump on to the next one. Cycling like this takes away your bodies chance at adapting to the herb and making it less effective. Every time you take the new herb, it hits you strong, like the very first time you took it.

This cycling strategy was one of the major components of my regimen. I used different herbs then this at the time, but these are way, way better. At present I have almost 20 different herbs that I cycle through every three weeks, never using one more then two days in a row. This has allowed me to send my Test through the roof and keep my estrogen at a good level. These herbs modulate your endocrine system to function at it's highest.

Downside is your gonna drop a couple bucks to get up and running. But believe me when I tell you, this stuff is worth every penny.

How is your sex drive on this combination?

hossam
03-12-2015, 10:15 AM
You guys want to take your natty experience to the next level, do yourself a favor and grab:

Pine Pollen
Polyrhachis Ant Extract
Cistanche
He Shou Wu
Schisandra
Guduchi
Maral Root.
Shilajit pitch
Tongkat Ali (Theirs is the best I've ever had)

I get all of these from Super Man Herbs - Pine Pollen, Mushrooms, Shilajit and More (http://supermanherbs.com/) Their stuff is legit the best quality stuff I have ever experienced.....ever. I'm walking around these days feeling almost bullet proof. It's nothing short of amazing. Obviously it helps if your already healthy and diet and exercise is in check. And, this should go without saying but this stuff works with your body, not against it. It builds you up, not shuts you down. If you're enhanced at all I'm not sure if it's even worth it to spend the money. You should be off all exogenous hormones to utilize these.

I take the pine pollen everyday. Two big tablespoons. I love it. The others I cycle. I take each herb no more then two days in a row and then jump on to the next one. Cycling like this takes away your bodies chance at adapting to the herb and making it less effective. Every time you take the new herb, it hits you strong, like the very first time you took it.

This cycling strategy was one of the major components of my regimen. I used different herbs then this at the time, but these are way, way better. At present I have almost 20 different herbs that I cycle through every three weeks, never using one more then two days in a row. This has allowed me to send my Test through the roof and keep my estrogen at a good level. These herbs modulate your endocrine system to function at it's highest.

Downside is your gonna drop a couple bucks to get up and running. But believe me when I tell you, this stuff is worth every penny.

i noticed that i am using lots of herbs daily for a long time and that resulted in no response at all now
so how long time i should stop to start gaining benefits again?

Bam24
03-12-2015, 11:42 AM
Cds if you had to pick top 5 of the herbs which would u choose that are most beneficial? (Budget constraints)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Freepressright
03-12-2015, 11:48 AM
Cds if you had to pick top 5 of the herbs which would u choose that are most beneficial? (Budget constraints)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd be curious to know this as well. I'm leaning toward the pine pollen, Tongkat Ali and buying some of the Phoenix blend.

Cdsnuts
03-12-2015, 05:54 PM
How is your sex drive on this combination?

I'm cycling about 20 different herbs or so on a rotating 3 week cycle. My sex drive is.....ridiculous. But it's a natural type of ridiculous, if that makes sense. It's not the kind that you get from exogenous hormones that is so intense you want to fuck the wall. This is more natural. More reasonable. I can at will do it anytime and thoroughly enjoy it, like I was a kid. The thing that strikes me about this is the staying power. It's fantastic. For example, when I run DHT compounds my drive is through the roof but it's almost like I'm over excited. I bust too quick for my liking. This is strong, reliable, enjoyable, always there and can call upon it at anytime, and I can just go and go until I want to finish. I guess the best way to put it is I feel sexually young again.

Cdsnuts
03-12-2015, 06:01 PM
i noticed that i am using lots of herbs daily for a long time and that resulted in no response at all now
so how long time i should stop to start gaining benefits again?

Depends on how long your usage was. If you've been using them for a few months I'd say you need to NOT take those herbs for a few months. Complete abstinence from them. Your body has their number, and they're pretty much done for awhile until you re sensitize your self. If you want to speed it up you can fast or cleanse and this will bring the waiting time down, but if you're not willing to lose muscle, then i wouldn't suggest that. You're better off cycling completely different herbs. You will get the response you desire by doing this.

Rule of thumb when doing this is, if you can't feel the herb working, it's probably not. When you cycle properly you FEEL IT every-time you dose. And when you feel it, you know you're getting that Test boost that you want. By hitting it like this you can push your Test pretty damn high if all other factors are in place.

Cdsnuts
03-12-2015, 06:05 PM
Cds if you had to pick top 5 of the herbs which would u choose that are most beneficial? (Budget constraints)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pine Pollen
Tongkat
Ant
Cistanche
He Shou Wu

This is just my opinion based on how these herbs effect ME. When it comes to herbalism individual genetics comes into play along with ALL other lifestyle factors. Your mileage may vary or other herbs may be more or less effective for your constitution.

Cdsnuts
03-12-2015, 06:09 PM
I'd be curious to know this as well. I'm leaning toward the pine pollen, Tongkat Ali and buying some of the Phoenix blend.

Do yourself a favor and stay away from the blends. This will just cause your body to become tolerant to all of those herbs at the same time. Remember, they're in the business of selling herbs. The same thing that happens with all herbs will happen with this too. You'll get a great response the first couple times you take it and then you'll start getting diminishing returns. If you're going to use a blend, you should really only use it once or twice a week, tops. And that's only if you're not using any of the herbs individually that is in the blend.

Cdsnuts
03-12-2015, 06:24 PM
This is my full list, if your curious.

Pine Pollen
Pine pollen extract
Polyrhachis Ant Extract
Cistanche
He Shou Wu
Schisandra
Guduchi
Maral Root.
Shilajit pitch
Tongkat Ali
Rhodiola
Eleuthero
Ashwaganda
Mucana
Tribulus (liftmode)
Muira puama
Catauba bark
Butea superba
Suma root extract
Royal jelly
maca (macapro)

Damn. When I look at it all typed out like that it's no surprise that my tank is brimming.

I know this list is ridiculous as far as cost. But when you come from where I did, there is no cost too great. Bare minimum you need a weeks worth of herbs to cycle, so seven different herbs.(if you're on the weeks worth cycle you can only take each herb ONCE before moving on to the next one as you're only leaving a week between doses.) The results magnify when you go to a two week cycle and then magnify again when you hit three weeks. The longer you go between doses of one particular herb, the better and stronger the T hit will be. I worked my way up to the three week cycle I'm at now and its the best it's been, hands down.

If you cycle like this with your diet and training in check, you're gonna be blown away. Another thing i want to mention is sleep. I've been sleeping like a baby. Rock solid down and out for 7-8 hours kind of sleep. This is only helping the situation.

Best part for me is I don't have to have the down time that I did when i was cycling hormones. Let's face it, PCT always sucks compared to how you felt when you were on. With this system, I feel on all the time. AND, I never have to stop.

Freepressright
03-13-2015, 06:21 AM
As always CDs, you are a scholar and a gentleman. Thank you for taking the time to share all of this with us in such detail. I will be saving up to hit this store HARD when I have the funds.

Do you think my Liftmode Trib would play well with most of your combination?

Bam24
03-13-2015, 06:32 AM
Pine Pollen
Tongkat
Ant
Cistanche
He Shou Wu

This is just my opinion based on how these herbs effect ME. When it comes to herbalism individual genetics comes into play along with ALL other lifestyle factors. Your mileage may vary or other herbs may be more or less effective for your constitution.

Awesome. Thank you, your advice is always appreciated !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cdsnuts
03-13-2015, 09:35 AM
Do you think my Liftmode Trib would play well with most of your combination?

It's one of the 20 on my list man.

Any herb that can boost T can be used in this fashion. Out of the almost 50 I've experimented with thus far, these 20 are my favorites. I've dropped a couple G's playing around with this getting it just right.

FYI...when it comes to herbs that require multiple doses through out the day, such as Trib, maca, etc. You would dose it as you normally would for that day only, then move on to the next herb the next day. So, for example FPR, when you were running the trib, you got yourself up to a gram at a shot, three times daily, correct? The reason you were able to go this high is due to your bodies tolerance. When cycled, you'll be able to do 250mg (maybe 500) 3 x daily and it will be more then enough.

Which brings me to the other benefit of doing this.....the herbs that you do buy will last a very looooooong time. Especially the more of them you have in your cycle. You'll only be dosing that herb once or twice a month.

Freepressright
03-13-2015, 10:56 AM
It's one of the 20 on my list man.

Any herb that can boost T can be used in this fashion. Out of the almost 50 I've experimented with thus far, these 20 are my favorites. I've dropped a couple G's playing around with this getting it just right.

FYI...when it comes to herbs that require multiple doses through out the day, such as Trib, maca, etc. You would dose it as you normally would for that day only, then move on to the next herb the next day. So, for example FPR, when you were running the trib, you got yourself up to a gram at a shot, three times daily, correct? The reason you were able to go this high is due to your bodies tolerance. When cycled, you'll be able to do 250mg (maybe 500) 3 x daily and it will be more then enough.

Which brings me to the other benefit of doing this.....the herbs that you do buy will last a very looooooong time. Especially the more of them you have in your cycle. You'll only be dosing that herb once or twice a month.

So, you're just taking tongkat ali a couple days and then moving on to the next herb? I've read you should take it 5 days on and 2 days off.

Cdsnuts
03-13-2015, 11:56 AM
So, you're just taking tongkat ali a couple days and then moving on to the next herb? I've read you should take it 5 days on and 2 days off.

Forget everything you've read. It's all written by people that are selling herbs. EVERYTHING you read about taking this stuff says the same old thing. Take it for so many days to get the desired effect, etc, etc, etc. Thing is it just never works out the way they say it does. Tolerance is a bitch.

I take everything once...or twice, then move on. If you're going to take something two days in a row you're best bet is to not take it again from a few weeks.

Don't take my word for it. Just try it for yourself.

entropy
03-13-2015, 12:03 PM
Forget everything you've read. It's all written by people that are selling herbs. EVERYTHING you read about taking this stuff says the same old thing. Take it for so many days to get the desired effect, etc, etc, etc. Thing is it just never works out the way they say it does. Tolerance is a bitch.

I take everything once...or twice, then move on. If you're going to take something two days in a row you're best bet is to not take it again from a few weeks.

Don't take my word for it. Just try it for yourself.

I can vouch for this, it just works much better. In my case I find myself looking forward to certain herbs during the week. Also, I bought some phenibut a while back with five day on, two day off instructions. Wth man.

Cdsnuts
03-13-2015, 12:11 PM
I can vouch for this, it just works much better. In my case I find myself looking forward to certain herbs during the week. Also, I bought some phenibut a while back with five day on, two day off instructions. Wth man.

I do the same thing. I have favorites of my favorites. I enjoy how each herb has it's own feel to it. It's own personality so to speak. I'll sometimes even plan certain herbs for certain days, depending on what I have going on.

That phenibut dosing schedule is a recipe for disaster.

- - - Updated - - -

Forgot to include ashwaganda to my list.

ctAL
03-15-2015, 11:05 PM
awesome thread!

so very interesting

for as long as i been into herbs i just ran, your telling me dont take 2 days in a row etc....i will have to play around with this

cost effective also

Speck
03-16-2015, 01:56 AM
Is this the case for all herbs or just test boosters? Ginkgo (for example) seems to apparently take weeks to even start to work.

Freepressright
03-16-2015, 06:05 AM
Is this the case for all herbs or just test boosters? Ginkgo (for example) seems to apparently take weeks to even start to work.

This would be my question/concern as well. Some herbs theoretically take time to get in your system and work. Or does that only imply to most of the inferior, commercial standardizations?

I'm not doubting you, CDs. You'd know better than anyone if something's working.

Cdsnuts
03-16-2015, 01:18 PM
Is this the case for all herbs or just test boosters? Ginkgo (for example) seems to apparently take weeks to even start to work.
I can't speak for all herbs just the ones I've experimented with myself. I never really understood that whole theory to begin with though. When you ingest something it is "in your system" and if it has any potency or quality behind it, it should elicit its effects.

5 alpha victim
03-20-2015, 09:32 PM
You guys want to take your natty experience to the next level, do yourself a favor and grab:

Pine Pollen
Polyrhachis Ant Extract
Cistanche
He Shou Wu
Schisandra
Guduchi
Maral Root.
Shilajit pitch
Tongkat Ali (Theirs is the best I've ever had)

I get all of these from Super Man Herbs - Pine Pollen, Mushrooms, Shilajit and More (http://supermanherbs.com/) Their stuff is legit the best quality stuff I have ever experienced.....ever. I'm walking around these days feeling almost bullet proof. It's nothing short of amazing. Obviously it helps if your already healthy and diet and exercise is in check. And, this should go without saying but this stuff works with your body, not against it. It builds you up, not shuts you down. If you're enhanced at all I'm not sure if it's even worth it to spend the money. You should be off all exogenous hormones to utilize these.

I take the pine pollen everyday. Two big tablespoons. I love it. The others I cycle. I take each herb no more then two days in a row and then jump on to the next one. Cycling like this takes away your bodies chance at adapting to the herb and making it less effective. Every time you take the new herb, it hits you strong, like the very first time you took it.

This cycling strategy was one of the major components of my regimen. I used different herbs then this at the time, but these are way, way better. At present I have almost 20 different herbs that I cycle through every three weeks, never using one more then two days in a row. This has allowed me to send my Test through the roof and keep my estrogen at a good level. These herbs modulate your endocrine system to function at it's highest.

Downside is your gonna drop a couple bucks to get up and running. But believe me when I tell you, this stuff is worth every penny.

This is so fucking interesting.

My first thought on this (when I was stupid and reading your recovery post a couple of years back on PH) I thought "wait a min, wouldent this just cause the herb to never have it's intended effect simply because you are never giving each herb a chance to work"

But after putting more thought into it, it's ingenious and I cannot wait to try it.

Matter of fact id love to see your list of 20

If it's not asking for to much of course :)

ctAL
03-21-2015, 06:27 AM
This is my full list, if your curious.

Pine Pollen
Pine pollen extract
Polyrhachis Ant Extract
Cistanche
He Shou Wu
Schisandra
Guduchi
Maral Root.
Shilajit pitch
Tongkat Ali
Rhodiola
Eleuthero
Ashwaganda
Mucana
Tribulus (liftmode)
Muira puama
Catauba bark
Butea superba
Suma root extract
Royal jelly
maca (macapro)

Damn. When I look at it all typed out like that it's no surprise that my tank is brimming.

I know this list is ridiculous as far as cost. But when you come from where I did, there is no cost too great. Bare minimum you need a weeks worth of herbs to cycle, so seven different herbs.(if you're on the weeks worth cycle you can only take each herb ONCE before moving on to the next one as you're only leaving a week between doses.) The results magnify when you go to a two week cycle and then magnify again when you hit three weeks. The longer you go between doses of one particular herb, the better and stronger the T hit will be. I worked my way up to the three week cycle I'm at now and its the best it's been, hands down.

If you cycle like this with your diet and training in check, you're gonna be blown away. Another thing i want to mention is sleep. I've been sleeping like a baby. Rock solid down and out for 7-8 hours kind of sleep. This is only helping the situation.

Best part for me is I don't have to have the down time that I did when i was cycling hormones. Let's face it, PCT always sucks compared to how you felt when you were on. With this system, I feel on all the time. AND, I never have to stop.


he put his full list buddy

BBG
03-21-2015, 09:21 AM
Info like this is why this is the best forum, forever.

ctAL
03-21-2015, 08:57 PM
I can't speak for all herbs just the ones I've experimented with myself. I never really understood that whole theory to begin with though. When you ingest something it is "in your system" and if it has any potency or quality behind it, it should elicit its effects.

pine pollen tincture seems to be better than powder

you only took the powder form?

5 alpha victim
03-22-2015, 04:46 PM
he put his full list buddy

Thanks brother did not know he posted that sense the last time I logged in.

LoL! I'm buying every fucking one. I'm taking my recovery to a whole new level. I'm going with the whole list so I am only hitting each herb once every three weeks. I Still have some clensing/recovering from fasts to do but I'll be ready soon enough.

It's all falling in place now.

5 alpha victim
03-22-2015, 05:10 PM
Hello there everybody. Before i start i really do like the website.

Anyway, ive got myself in some awful trouble. Last year March i began takin what i thought were vitamins called hair life vitamins just for nicer head of hair i guess thinking nothing to it. I suddenly began experiencing testicular pain, swollen glands and for the first time in my life no morning erections, no libido and for the life of me i couldnt get an erection...it was insane!. After 3 weeks i worked out what was going on..they contained Saw Palmetto extract. I researched this herb and received a whole education on DHT, 5 alpha and the rest, i was shocked

Two months later i was still struggling with erections. I began looking into T boosters. Fenugreek(testofen) was highly recommended to me and i did my own research. It sounded good testosterone increases and the rest. I began takin it. After a few weeks the same symptons arose which saw palmetto gave me. The worse thing was my flaccid penis shrunk, like having a cold shower all the time...bloody awful!! I couldnt believe it. I then researched into how fenugreek works....another DHT blocker! and it increases prolactin!!!

By the end of august, my libido was dead, no random erections, no morning erections, shrunken flaccid, no zest for life, reduced ejactulate, numbness!! We are now in febuary and im no better off, ive began taking tongkat ali.

My test levels are low around 11nmol. Im 28 years old.

Has anyone else experienced this? More importanly has anybody recovered?

Im worried sick hoping I havent caused any permanent damage but as of yet my system just hasnt normalised.

I was absolutley fine 12 months ago.

James


So messed up how many products are out there containing saw P. This stuff is crazy dangers and should be banned from every Sup store. Saw p Is actually what got me to in the same way this hair loss product got you. When I only 22 I took Avodart (prescription strength DHT inhibiter) and recovered from it. When I was 26 I found a product called Methyl Armitest which claimed to be a natural T booster and that's when I crashed hard core never to recover just like you. Turns out saw P was in methyl Armitest. So R experiences are very similar.

What was the name of your hair loss sup u took?

Follow cdnuts method. First u should go research his method on propecia help . Com.

I'm still learning his method my self. Anything we can help each other with while figuring this thing out the better. We will get their. It's not a problem .

ctAL
03-24-2015, 02:50 PM
my pine pollen from surthrival came in today

silverstrand
03-27-2015, 11:27 AM
This is my full list, if your curious.

Pine Pollen
Pine pollen extract
Polyrhachis Ant Extract
Cistanche
He Shou Wu
Schisandra
Guduchi
Maral Root.
Shilajit pitch
Tongkat Ali
Rhodiola
Eleuthero
Ashwaganda
Mucana
Tribulus (liftmode)
Muira puama
Catauba bark
Butea superba
Suma root extract
Royal jelly
maca (macapro)

Damn. When I look at it all typed out like that it's no surprise that my tank is brimming.

I know this list is ridiculous as far as cost. But when you come from where I did, there is no cost too great. Bare minimum you need a weeks worth of herbs to cycle, so seven different herbs.(if you're on the weeks worth cycle you can only take each herb ONCE before moving on to the next one as you're only leaving a week between doses.) The results magnify when you go to a two week cycle and then magnify again when you hit three weeks. The longer you go between doses of one particular herb, the better and stronger the T hit will be. I worked my way up to the three week cycle I'm at now and its the best it's been, hands down.

If you cycle like this with your diet and training in check, you're gonna be blown away. Another thing i want to mention is sleep. I've been sleeping like a baby. Rock solid down and out for 7-8 hours kind of sleep. This is only helping the situation.

Best part for me is I don't have to have the down time that I did when i was cycling hormones. Let's face it, PCT always sucks compared to how you felt when you were on. With this system, I feel on all the time. AND, I never have to stop.

Hi Cdnuts,

Would you be able to expand on this list you put out there for everyone - really appreciate this list btw!!
What I'm interested in knowing is how do you take each item on your list - for instance, I remember you saying you take Pine Pollen every day (2 teaspoons worth) and Royal Jelly, pre workout. Can you comment on the amounts and frequency, like do you take a specific herb once in the morning or multiple times throughout the day. If there's anything else you think I might worth knowing as well, please include.

Thanks so much!

Freepressright
03-27-2015, 11:53 AM
Hi Cdnuts,

Would you be able to expand on this list you put out there for everyone - really appreciate this list btw!!
What I'm interested in knowing is how do you take each item on your list - for instance, I remember you saying you take Pine Pollen every day (2 teaspoons worth) and Royal Jelly, pre workout. Can you comment on the amounts and frequency, like do you take a specific herb once in the morning or multiple times throughout the day. If there's anything else you think I might worth knowing as well, please include.

Thanks so much!

If you re-read this thread, he actually address all of that.

silverstrand
04-09-2015, 03:22 PM
This is my full list, if your curious.

Pine Pollen
Pine pollen extract
Polyrhachis Ant Extract
Cistanche
He Shou Wu
Schisandra
Guduchi
Maral Root.
Shilajit pitch
Tongkat Ali
Rhodiola
Eleuthero
Ashwaganda
Mucana
Tribulus (liftmode)
Muira puama
Catauba bark
Butea superba
Suma root extract
Royal jelly
maca (macapro)

Damn. When I look at it all typed out like that it's no surprise that my tank is brimming.

I know this list is ridiculous as far as cost. But when you come from where I did, there is no cost too great. Bare minimum you need a weeks worth of herbs to cycle, so seven different herbs.(if you're on the weeks worth cycle you can only take each herb ONCE before moving on to the next one as you're only leaving a week between doses.) The results magnify when you go to a two week cycle and then magnify again when you hit three weeks. The longer you go between doses of one particular herb, the better and stronger the T hit will be. I worked my way up to the three week cycle I'm at now and its the best it's been, hands down.

If you cycle like this with your diet and training in check, you're gonna be blown away. Another thing i want to mention is sleep. I've been sleeping like a baby. Rock solid down and out for 7-8 hours kind of sleep. This is only helping the situation.

Best part for me is I don't have to have the down time that I did when i was cycling hormones. Let's face it, PCT always sucks compared to how you felt when you were on. With this system, I feel on all the time. AND, I never have to stop.

Hi Cd,
Being that your list of Test Boosters will likely continue to grow. Have you experimented at all with using combinations? Maybe two at once, it might complicate things a little to make sure not to use two within a 10 day time frame but I'm all for experiementation. I guess pine pollen everyday would make for 2 boosters every day but you know what I mean.

Crank92
05-14-2015, 04:19 PM
Hi all,

I'm intrigued to hear your opinions on this considering there appears to be a rare few post-PFS-ers on here!

I personally took accutane for 10 days and crashed New Years Day 2012/13. I got all the sexual issues (no libido, no morning glory, no spontaneous, ED, reduced ejaculate, ED etc etc you know the story).

Anyway my current situation appears to be the cognitive elements of my sexuality are somewhat improved. But the D aspects not so much. For example, my libido has come back online (not 100% mind you) and libido induced erections are now possible. However, I recently have developed some shrinkage and a coldness downstairs.

Furthermore, if I take something like high dose tribulus/creatine I notice an increase in libido but concomitantly a shrivelled cold D. So what I'm thinking is while my brain is receptive to these pro-DHT supps. Local factors downstairs are causing a shift in T conversion from the 5AR pathway to the aromatase pathway. Therefore most if not all CDs list of supps are probs off-limits for me personally.

So, given this information, pro-DHT compounds are probably not wise (at this time anyway). What I was wondering is, what the best anti-E/anti-aromatase foods, supplements, herbs etc? Or any other ideas (backed with some science lingo preferably).

Bear in mind I have followed paleo pretty strictly since even before I took accutane. Whether it be the ketogenic version or the more lax type that allows starchy tubers such as sweet potato alongside my copious fruit consumtpion. I've only recently introduced less paleo things such as whey just for conveniences sake. However, I'm going to start loading up on broccoli, cauliflower ( some E metabolising properties), mushrooms (some AI properties), celery (androsterone content), beetroot (Nitric oxide production - vasodilation). Although I'm aware the potency of dietary intake will probably be minimal if not negligible.

I'm also in very good shape. I used to be a national level swimmer. Now I compete in MMA. I'm circa 6-7% bodyfat most of the year (benefits of being an ectomorph dominant ecto-mesomorph) at 190lb's 6foot 1. I squat and deadlift heavy on the regular and train all the main energy systems in a periodised fashion. (of note, Accutane only effects the 5AR found in genitals and brain. Hence, I can still be shredded and strong but still suffer with hypergonadal symptoms in the sexual department).

I'm considering trying a pharmaceutical grade Aromatase Inhibitor if I don't get any results in the next few months with whatever I decide to try.

Any way, thoughts would be appreciated.

Freepressright
05-15-2015, 06:26 AM
Hi all,

I'm intrigued to hear your opinions on this considering there appears to be a rare few post-PFS-ers on here!

I personally took accutane for 10 days and crashed New Years Day 2012/13. I got all the sexual issues (no libido, no morning glory, no spontaneous, ED, reduced ejaculate, ED etc etc you know the story).

Anyway my current situation appears to be the cognitive elements of my sexuality are somewhat improved. But the D aspects not so much. For example, my libido has come back online (not 100% mind you) and libido induced erections are now possible. However, I recently have developed some shrinkage and a coldness downstairs.

Furthermore, if I take something like high dose tribulus/creatine I notice an increase in libido but concomitantly a shrivelled cold D. So what I'm thinking is while my brain is receptive to these pro-DHT supps. Local factors downstairs are causing a shift in T conversion from the 5AR pathway to the aromatase pathway. Therefore most if not all CDs list of supps are probs off-limits for me personally.

So, given this information, pro-DHT compounds are probably not wise (at this time anyway). What I was wondering is, what the best anti-E/anti-aromatase foods, supplements, herbs etc? Or any other ideas (backed with some science lingo preferably).

Bear in mind I have followed paleo pretty strictly since even before I took accutane. Whether it be the ketogenic version or the more lax type that allows starchy tubers such as sweet potato alongside my copious fruit consumtpion. I've only recently introduced less paleo things such as whey just for conveniences sake. However, I'm going to start loading up on broccoli, cauliflower ( some E metabolising properties), mushrooms (some AI properties), celery (androsterone content), beetroot (Nitric oxide production - vasodilation). Although I'm aware the potency of dietary intake will probably be minimal if not negligible.

I'm also in very good shape. I used to be a national level swimmer. Now I compete in MMA. I'm circa 6-7% bodyfat most of the year (benefits of being an ectomorph dominant ecto-mesomorph) at 190lb's 6foot 1. I squat and deadlift heavy on the regular and train all the main energy systems in a periodised fashion. (of note, Accutane only effects the 5AR found in genitals and brain. Hence, I can still be shredded and strong but still suffer with hypergonadal symptoms in the sexual department).

I'm considering trying a pharmaceutical grade Aromatase Inhibitor if I don't get any results in the next few months with whatever I decide to try.

Any way, thoughts would be appreciated.

You could always play with some Exemestane dosed at 25mg every other day or every three days and see if that brings about improvement.

You'll know quickly if it improves things for you. I've actually had to incorporate some into my natural herbal protocol because I felt like I was getting an E spike. Erections became stronger within 24 hours.

Swill
05-15-2015, 02:06 PM
You could always play with some Exemestane dosed at 25mg every other day or every three days and see if that brings about improvement.

You'll know quickly if it improves things for you. I've actually had to incorporate some into my natural herbal protocol because I felt like I was getting an E spike. Erections became stronger within 24 hours.

I'm surprised you had to use the exemestane on top of the DHT optimisation protocol man, I thought the DHT increase would take care of any aromatase? Your herbal protocol is tongkat and pine pollen is that right?... must be packing hell of a punch for you!

The RES100 hasn't improved things with me as of yet on my herbal protocol so considering a pharma AI if nothing improves soon... you'd go extemestane over anastrozole?

Crank92
05-15-2015, 02:10 PM
Is there any reason you choose exemestane over say Letro or Arimidex? Those are the two I'm considering, Arimidex due to it's milder competitive inhibition. Letro although it's the aggro option it has the benefit of through a secondary function increasing DHT and 3-Adiol-G, I forget the precursor and pathway that it uses, but will be my final option I think.

I'm looking into getting a bit of a stack going, to give the natty route one last bash:

PES Erase
E-radicate (Beast Sports Nutrition) - (Calcium D-glucarate and 7-methoxyflavone)
Grape Seed Extract (MyProtein)
And possibly some pine pollen too from wherever I can find in the UK that looks legit.

tallstraw
05-15-2015, 02:59 PM
Exemestane is a 3rd generation AI if I remember right. Truthfully, unless you're having a severe outbreak of estrogen and breast sensitivity and need letro since it's the most potent of them all to nuke estrogen and stop nip issues..everyone should be using exem, doesn't wreck your values as bad, and is a suicide inhibitor. There's no reason to use Adex now, and letro isn't needed for daily use for lethargy issues among other things.

Cdsnuts
05-15-2015, 03:45 PM
I'm surprised you had to use the exemestane on top of the DHT optimisation protocol man, I thought the DHT increase would take care of any aromatase? Your herbal protocol is tongkat and pine pollen is that right?... must be packing hell of a punch for you!

The RES100 hasn't improved things with me as of yet on my herbal protocol so considering a pharma AI if nothing improves soon... you'd go extemestane over anastrozole?
The nettle he is taking could be wiping out his DHT.

Cdsnuts
05-15-2015, 03:46 PM
You could always play with some Exemestane dosed at 25mg every other day or every three days and see if that brings about improvement.

You'll know quickly if it improves things for you. I've actually had to incorporate some into my natural herbal protocol because I felt like I was getting an E spike. Erections became stronger within 24 hours.
I'm surprised. You shouldn't be having any issues on the herbs unless the nettle is doing what I suspected it would.

BBG
05-15-2015, 04:04 PM
I'm surprised. You shouldn't be having any issues on the herbs unless the nettle is doing what I suspected it would.

It does increase circulating DHT based on this study...


Secoisolariciresinol, a lignan in nettle root displayed a modest inhibitory effect on DHT binding to SHBG in vitro, theoretically resulting in greater concentrations of free DHT in serum and in local tissues. The lignan 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran, also present in nettle root was able to completely inhibit DHT from binding to SHBG, yet another indication that it can result in increased free (active) DHT available to tissues such as that in the scalp.

Planta Med. 1997 Dec;63(6):529-32.

Or at least that component of it. That's it's in a lot of test boosters like BPS Endosurge (insert product placement here ;) lol ).

Cdsnuts
05-15-2015, 04:06 PM
It does increase circulating DHT based on this study...



Or at least that component of it. That's it's in a lot of test boosters like BPS Endosurge (insert product placement here ;) lol ).
Yeah, but there's also studies that shows it blocks 5ar which in turn decreases DHT. it may increase circulating DHT in the beginning when it unbinds it from Sh BG. but once 5ar is blocked it's downhill from there. Myself and other PFS guys cannot go anywhere near it because of this. We were actually discussing this in the beginning of the thread.

BBG
05-15-2015, 04:42 PM
Yeah, but there's also studies that shows it blocks 5ar which in turn decreases DHT. it may increase circulating DHT in the beginning when it unbinds it from Sh BG. but once 5ar is blocked it's downhill from there. Myself and other PFS guys cannot go anywhere near it because of this. We were actually discussing this in the beginning of the thread.

I'm curious to see the studies. I do remember you guys mentioning it in the thread. I can't find a single study. I don't think I'm looking up the right keywords :(

Cdsnuts
05-15-2015, 04:53 PM
I'm curious to see the studies. I do remember you guys mentioning it in the thread. I can't find a single study. I don't think I'm looking up the right keywords :(

To save me from digging through all of my old propecia files you can simply search "3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran blocks 5ar" or "Urtica dioica blocks 5ar enzyme." Etc, etc.

Studies aside, it negatively effects me after a few days of use. I feel great in the beginning, and then the enzyme inhibition starts working it's magic on me. Then again, I'm EXTREMELY sensitive to 5ar inhibition, as are all PFS guys. Other guys are not.

BBG
05-15-2015, 05:08 PM
I think I remember now. I literally can't find any studies on it blocking DHT, but I do recall it blocks DHT from binding to the prostate.

I did find this though:


A comprehensive review on the stinging nettle effect and efficacy profiles. Part II: urticae radix.

Only a few components of the active principle have been identified and the mechanism of action is still unclear. It seems likely that sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), aromatase, epidermal growth factor and prostate steroid membrane receptors are involved in the anti-prostatic effect, but less likely that 5alpha-reductase or androgen receptors are involved.

A comprehensive review on the stinging nettle effect and efficacy profiles. Part II: urticae radix. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17509841)

I don't mean to argue the point, more to inform, but I don't think "studies aside" should really be a phrase uttered! It may make you feel bad, but that doesn't necessarily (it could be) mean it's blocking the 5ar.

Cdsnuts
05-15-2015, 06:47 PM
I think I remember now. I literally can't find any studies on it blocking DHT, but I do recall it blocks DHT from binding to the prostate.

I did find this though:



I don't mean to argue the point, more to inform, but I don't think "studies aside" should really be a phrase uttered! It may make you feel bad, but that doesn't necessarily (it could be) mean it's blocking the 5ar.
Seeing as I have an intimate knowledge of what 5ar inhibition feels like, Im going to disagree. As unscientific as that sounds. ..

And I feel I need to clarify when I say blocking DHT. When something blocks 5ar it stops the conversion of testosterone to DHT. That's what I mean when I say it blocks DHT. This is one of the reasons it is used as a test booster. Because not only does it act as an aromatase inhibitor boosting testosterone in that way but it also boosts testosterone because less testosterone is actually being converted into DHT driving up T numbers.

Again, not all men are sensitive to 5ar inhibition. If any of the PFS guys want to take stinging nettle for a spin and then report back , I'm pretty sure they would all say it feels exactly the way propecia felt when things started to go downhill.

You are going to make me dig into my files, aren't you? Lol

BBG
05-15-2015, 07:12 PM
haha! I'm sorry I don't mean to make you dig. I'm, unfortunately, a very logically minded individual (did I mention I love spreadsheets and well crafted schedule/budget software?)

But, suffice it to say, I believe you when you say the studies exist. I do wonder if it would negatively affect someone who is otherwise healthy, ie, doesn't suffer PFS.

Swill
05-16-2015, 03:08 AM
haha! I'm sorry I don't mean to make you dig. I'm, unfortunately, a very logically minded individual (did I mention I love spreadsheets and well crafted schedule/budget software?)

But, suffice it to say, I believe you when you say the studies exist. I do wonder if it would negatively affect someone who is otherwise healthy, ie, doesn't suffer PFS.

To back up what CD is saying, I have read many, many (albeit anecdotal) reports from PFS guys stating that nettle was terrible for them/set them back considerably, etc... too many for it to be coincidence to my mind. I bought a bottle an age back and luckily read up on it first, so said bottle is now gathering dust somewhere. I too came across studies regarding it binding 5ar.

Again just theorising, but i wouldn't be surprised if nettle didn't harm me upon taking it at all if I had not done a lot of damage with much more potent finasteride, but now to add something like that to the mix would very much be playing with fire for a lot of us.

BBG
05-16-2015, 11:06 AM
Yeah, I've taken stinging nettle back when Athletix came out with Divison 1, and it really ramped up my sex drive (while natty) for the 4 weeks I was taking it. That's why it's so surprising to me. Again, suffering from PFS, that must be the factor here.

entropy
05-16-2015, 11:41 AM
Yeah, I've taken stinging nettle back when Athletix came out with Divison 1, and it really ramped up my sex drive (while natty) for the 4 weeks I was taking it. That's why it's so surprising to me. Again, suffering from PFS, that must be the factor here.

Maybe not necessarily. Surely unbinding/reducing shbg can have estro consequences too? Estrogen binds to shbg too iirc.

Freepressright
05-16-2015, 03:15 PM
Let me clarify, early on, before adding in more specific herbs for DHT optimization, I was having nipple sensitivity issues. I had developed problems on my last Trest D run and never totally resolved it.

I used exem a couple times and it definitely had pro-sexual benefits and rid me of the problem. Since incorporating the boron, sorghum, nettle, daily Creatine HCI and ashwagandha, I have had no issues.

5 alpha victim
05-16-2015, 06:01 PM
Seeing as I have an intimate knowledge of what 5ar inhibition feels like, Im going to disagree. As unscientific as that sounds. ..

And I feel I need to clarify when I say blocking DHT. When something blocks 5ar it stops the conversion of testosterone to DHT. That's what I mean when I say it blocks DHT. This is one of the reasons it is used as a test booster. Because not only does it act as an aromatase inhibitor boosting testosterone in that way but it also boosts testosterone because less testosterone is actually being converted into DHT driving up T numbers.

Again, not all men are sensitive to 5ar inhibition. If any of the PFS guys want to take stinging nettle for a spin and then report back , I'm pretty sure they would all say it feels exactly the way propecia felt when things started to go downhill.

You are going to make me dig into my files, aren't you? Lol


I can save you the trouble from needing to dig into your Propecia files.

Here is a study about the 5 alpha reductase capabilities of Stinging Nettle:

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vinod_Dixit/publication/51537882_Ameliorative_effects_of_stinging_nettle_% 28Urtica_dioica%29_on_testosterone-induced_prostatic_hyperplasia_in_rats/links/54e734300cf2cd2e0291953a.pdf

The most important paragraph from this study: (Stinging Nettle is abbreviated as UD)

The results of the study suggest that UDP prevented prostatic hyperplasia significantly with 50 mg kg)1 show- ing the best activity. UDE also showed significant results. The in vitro studies cleared the mechanism of prevention of prostatic hyperplasia induced by testosterone. It is evi- dent that UD extracts have 5a reductase inhibitory activ- ity. The weekly serum testosterone levels are suggestive of the mechanism of action of the extracts and finasteride. The decrease in urinary obstruction also suggests that the extracts have a positive effect on hypertrophy of the pros- tate. As b-sitosterol is a well-known molecule established for the treatment of BPH (Martindale, 1989; The Merck Index, 2006), the presence of b-sitosterol as a major con- stituent in the extracts further supports our observations. A number of clinical studies undertaken by different scientific groups have supported clinical efficacy of b-sitosterol in prostate disorders (Braeckman, 1994; Berges et al., 1995; Klippel et al., 1997; Wilt et al., 1998, 1999). Our studies with b-sitosterol are indicative of its protec- tive effects on testosterone-induced hyperplasia. The per- centage of b-sitosterol in UDP and UDE was calculated to be 27.28% and 19.96%, respectively. The amount of b-sitosterol present in the extract does not seem to be sole contributor of the activity as 20 mg kg)1 dose of standard b-sitosterol is not as effective as the extract (50 mg kg)1). The effects of b-sitosterol might be potentiated by the presence of other constituents present in the extract. Synergistic mechanism of action along with the other phytoconstituents present in the extract can be suggested for these preventive effects.

Important things to point out from this study;

Stinging Nettle Inhibits 5 alpha Reductase

Nettle contains B-Sitosterol. Just incase anyone does not know what this is its a type of PhytoSterol found in Saw Palmetto.

Here is my source to back this up. It's a study about the content/mechanism of action of Saw Palmetto:

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3798925/#!po=0.602410)

On page 3 you will read about how B-Sitosterol is one of the common PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

I highly recommend anyone who is interested in understanding the ins and outs of Saw P to read that entire study.

I also recently discovered that B-Sitostetol is in the Toco caps from the ultimate stack from Wicked Sups. This is unfortunate as I was planning on using it as PCT and now need to make other plans.

Here's the link to the wicked sups showing B-Sitostetol is in the Toco Caps:

The Ultimate Stack Wicked Supplements (http://www.wickedsupplements.com/products-page/product-stacks/the-ultimate-stack/)

This study about Gibberellins seems to relate to this subject so I figured I'd offer the information:

Patent WO1991008751A1 -
The use of gibberellins for the treatment of prostatitis and psoriasis - Google Patents (http://www.google.com/patents/WO1991008751A1?cl=en)

Gibberellins are a type of PhytoSterol that is found in Pine Pollen.

Here is the link from SMH's that talks about how Gibberellins are found in Pine Pollen and here is a link that that provides some basic information about PhytoSterols.

Pine Pollen - Testosterone - Pine Pollen Tincture - Benefits (http://supermanherbs.com/pine-pollen/)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhytoSterol

I dug out the important pieces of information from the Gibberellins study posted above. This may be important to people who are sensitive to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors.

"The gibberellins and gibberellin precursors have a structural similarity with testosterone and therefore bind to the testosterone receptors"

" The physiological effects exerted by testosterone are therefore mimiced by the gibberellins and gibberellin precursors . The effect on hyperplasia or hypertrophic growth of the prostatic glands is also a result of the testosterone-like activity"

" the gibberellins or gibberellin precursors are thought to bind to the enzyme 5-α reductase , which normally converts testosterone to dihydro testosterone"

"If the concentration of gibberellins or gibberellin precursors in the prostate is high enough, the 5 -α reductase can be blocked by the gibberellins or the gibberellin precursors"

"Experimentally induced hypertrophic growth of the prostatic gland in rats by dihydrotestosterone was also inhibited by the gibberellins. Treatment of male adult uncastrated rats with a daily 50 μg dosis of dihydrotestosterone for three months resulted in hypertrophic growth of the prostate gland. The weight of the prostate was 814 mg, which was equivalent to about 0.342 of the total body weight. When the rats were simultaneously given a daily dose of 100 μg of gibberellins GA20 and GA30, an increase in prostate weight was not detected. The weight of the prostate was in this case 582 mg, which was equivalent to 0.20% of the total body weight"

"Hyperplasia and hypertrophic growth of the prostate glands in male humans was also reduced by treatment with gibberellins GA20 and GA30. The substances were administered orally in a weak ethanol solution containing doses of 10 μg, 50 μg, 100 μg, 500 μg and 1 mg per day for three weeks. The treatment resulped in a reduced swelling and a reduced growth of the prostate. The treatment with the gibberellins also resulted in a slight increase in body weight and a slight increase in libido"

My interpretation of the gibberellins study:

Based on the results of this study its clear that the Testosterone mimicking effects gibberellins has on the Testosterone receptors can grow the prostates of rats and in humans. It's also clear the 5 Alpha Reductase properties that gibberellins have can shrink the size of the prostates in rats and in humans. I'm assuming that this is why it says on the SMH's website that "pine pollen can shrink the Prostate if it's inflamed or grow the Prostate of its to small".

My thoughts about the gibberellins study:

Even though we know 5 alpha reductase inhibitors typically can raise testosterone levels it's uncommon for a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor to also have anabolic properties. This makes gibberellins unique in the regard that it "acts as testosterone" in the body but at the same time it can inhibit the 5 alpha reductase enzymes. Maybe this has the potential to be significant for guys who are sensitive to taking 5 alpha reductase inhibitors as this is may be a way to inhibit the enzyme but at the same time with the protection of its anabolic properties.

Also the study seems to suggest that when the gibberellins inhibit 5 alpha reductase it's doing so within the prostate and not on a systematic level. This could be groundbreaking for someone who suffers from an enlarged prostate and who is also extremely sensitive to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors like my self. Of course the only other known effective alternative to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors is surgery when it comes to treating an enlarged prostate.

Question for CDnuts.

1) are you still taking pine pollen ?

2) how long have you been taking the pine pollen ?

3) if you took the time out to read the gibberellins study, what are your thoughts?

4) have you noticed or felt anything while taking pine pollen that would make you believe it's problematic for 5Ar sensitive guys?

Just an FYI. I am by no means trying to challenge Pine Pollen. I just wanted to post this just incase it it does have the ability to act as a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor and you are not aware.

entropy
05-16-2015, 07:26 PM
Your posts make my eyes bleed dude. Say less and fix your formatting a little, there's no way people will read through that. Anyway, beta sitosterol has to be taken in a pretty large dosage to mess with hormones, its actually present in a lot of things like avocado etc. Kinda like how there's cyanide in apples. I haven't actually looked for any negatives on pine pollen, I've been using it for a couple weeks and noticed nothing but benefits however.

5 alpha victim
05-16-2015, 07:53 PM
"Your posts make my eyes bleed dude. Say less and fix your formatting"

It's actually really easy to follow. I posted sources for every point made.

"Anyway, beta sitosterol has to be taken in a pretty large dosage to mess with hormones"

Interesting. Not sure how much caution I want to use with beta sitosterol yet. Perhaps a product like toco caps that contains some beta sitosterol is safe. The study I posted about nettle however makes it clear that the nettle contains other ingredients that inhibit 5AR other than just the b-sitosterol. With that said Stinging Nettle is deff not safe for 5AR sensitive guys.

"I haven't actually looked for any negatives on pine pollen, I've been using it for a couple weeks and noticed nothing but benefits however."

I'm not sure what to make of this yet. We know pine pollen contains gibberellins and we know based on the gibberellins study I posted that gibberellins does inhibit DHT at least in the prostate. When I seen that super Man herbs claimed pine pollen had the ability to shrink the prostate I started looking into gibberellins and that's how I found that study.

It appears most Phystosterols are 5AR inhibitors. But to what extent? And should 5AR sensitive guys avoid them?

The good news is that there is at least two members on this website who take pine pollen and who are sensitive to 5 ar inhibitors and they have no problems. Only benefits.
Like I said this could be huge if gibberellins truly can inhibit Dht just in the prostate and no where else in the body....

entropy
05-16-2015, 09:38 PM
As far as I'm aware the beta sitosterol in toco caps is naturally occurring in the palm oil its made from. I take a mixed tocotrienols product too. One could say I don't fuck around. Just for funsies, lauric acid is a 5ari, it also makes up about half of the fatty acids in coconut oil and I consume that in vast amounts. On average about 30-40gms a day. CD likes it too. No issues. Obviously be careful but a tonne of things can inhibit an enzyme in a test tube.. It doesn't always mean consuming that thing will have the same effect after ingestion.

Speck
05-16-2015, 10:07 PM
I mentioned this somewhere else but as well as in-vitro effects being sometimes vastly different from in-vivo effects, dietary fats are mostly triglycerides whereas the study involving lauric acid used free fatty acids. Different effects on cells.

For the same reason I'm skeptical about sorghum; the study which supports its role in increasing 5ar focused on the fatty acid content. The same study looked at rice and conversely found it to be a strong 5ar inhibitor, yet billions of people around the world eat plenty of rice, and their prostates aren't shrivelling up or their dicks falling off.

Sorghum bran however contains heaps of antioxidants, rivalling those of other more expensive 'superfoods' (pomegranate, etc.). Possibly pro-erectile benefits there by that MOA rather than increased DHT.

Cdsnuts
05-17-2015, 03:28 AM
I can save you the trouble from needing to dig into your Propecia files.

Here is a study about the 5 alpha reductase capabilities of Stinging Nettle:

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vinod_Dixit/publication/51537882_Ameliorative_effects_of_stinging_nettle_% 28Urtica_dioica%29_on_testosterone-induced_prostatic_hyperplasia_in_rats/links/54e734300cf2cd2e0291953a.pdf

The most important paragraph from this study: (Stinging Nettle is abbreviated as UD)

The results of the study suggest that UDP prevented prostatic hyperplasia significantly with 50 mg kg)1 show- ing the best activity. UDE also showed significant results. The in vitro studies cleared the mechanism of prevention of prostatic hyperplasia induced by testosterone. It is evi- dent that UD extracts have 5a reductase inhibitory activ- ity. The weekly serum testosterone levels are suggestive of the mechanism of action of the extracts and finasteride. The decrease in urinary obstruction also suggests that the extracts have a positive effect on hypertrophy of the pros- tate. As b-sitosterol is a well-known molecule established for the treatment of BPH (Martindale, 1989; The Merck Index, 2006), the presence of b-sitosterol as a major con- stituent in the extracts further supports our observations. A number of clinical studies undertaken by different scientific groups have supported clinical efficacy of b-sitosterol in prostate disorders (Braeckman, 1994; Berges et al., 1995; Klippel et al., 1997; Wilt et al., 1998, 1999). Our studies with b-sitosterol are indicative of its protec- tive effects on testosterone-induced hyperplasia. The per- centage of b-sitosterol in UDP and UDE was calculated to be 27.28% and 19.96%, respectively. The amount of b-sitosterol present in the extract does not seem to be sole contributor of the activity as 20 mg kg)1 dose of standard b-sitosterol is not as effective as the extract (50 mg kg)1). The effects of b-sitosterol might be potentiated by the presence of other constituents present in the extract. Synergistic mechanism of action along with the other phytoconstituents present in the extract can be suggested for these preventive effects.

Important things to point out from this study;

Stinging Nettle Inhibits 5 alpha Reductase

Nettle contains B-Sitosterol. Just incase anyone does not know what this is its a type of PhytoSterol found in Saw Palmetto.

Here is my source to back this up. It's a study about the content/mechanism of action of Saw Palmetto:

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3798925/#!po=0.602410)

On page 3 you will read about how B-Sitosterol is one of the common PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

I highly recommend anyone who is interested in understanding the ins and outs of Saw P to read that entire study.

I also recently discovered that B-Sitostetol is in the Toco caps from the ultimate stack from Wicked Sups. This is unfortunate as I was planning on using it as PCT and now need to make other plans.

Here's the link to the wicked sups showing B-Sitostetol is in the Toco Caps:

The Ultimate Stack Wicked Supplements (http://www.wickedsupplements.com/products-page/product-stacks/the-ultimate-stack/)

This study about Gibberellins seems to relate to this subject so I figured I'd offer the information:

Patent WO1991008751A1 -
The use of gibberellins for the treatment of prostatitis and psoriasis - Google Patents (http://www.google.com/patents/WO1991008751A1?cl=en)

Gibberellins are a type of PhytoSterol that is found in Pine Pollen.

Here is the link from SMH's that talks about how Gibberellins are found in Pine Pollen and here is a link that that provides some basic information about PhytoSterols.

Pine Pollen - Testosterone - Pine Pollen Tincture - Benefits (http://supermanherbs.com/pine-pollen/)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhytoSterol

I dug out the important pieces of information from the Gibberellins study posted above. This may be important to people who are sensitive to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors.

"The gibberellins and gibberellin precursors have a structural similarity with testosterone and therefore bind to the testosterone receptors"

" The physiological effects exerted by testosterone are therefore mimiced by the gibberellins and gibberellin precursors . The effect on hyperplasia or hypertrophic growth of the prostatic glands is also a result of the testosterone-like activity"

" the gibberellins or gibberellin precursors are thought to bind to the enzyme 5-α reductase , which normally converts testosterone to dihydro testosterone"

"If the concentration of gibberellins or gibberellin precursors in the prostate is high enough, the 5 -α reductase can be blocked by the gibberellins or the gibberellin precursors"

"Experimentally induced hypertrophic growth of the prostatic gland in rats by dihydrotestosterone was also inhibited by the gibberellins. Treatment of male adult uncastrated rats with a daily 50 μg dosis of dihydrotestosterone for three months resulted in hypertrophic growth of the prostate gland. The weight of the prostate was 814 mg, which was equivalent to about 0.342 of the total body weight. When the rats were simultaneously given a daily dose of 100 μg of gibberellins GA20 and GA30, an increase in prostate weight was not detected. The weight of the prostate was in this case 582 mg, which was equivalent to 0.20% of the total body weight"

"Hyperplasia and hypertrophic growth of the prostate glands in male humans was also reduced by treatment with gibberellins GA20 and GA30. The substances were administered orally in a weak ethanol solution containing doses of 10 μg, 50 μg, 100 μg, 500 μg and 1 mg per day for three weeks. The treatment resulped in a reduced swelling and a reduced growth of the prostate. The treatment with the gibberellins also resulted in a slight increase in body weight and a slight increase in libido"

My interpretation of the gibberellins study:

Based on the results of this study its clear that the Testosterone mimicking effects gibberellins has on the Testosterone receptors can grow the prostates of rats and in humans. It's also clear the 5 Alpha Reductase properties that gibberellins have can shrink the size of the prostates in rats and in humans. I'm assuming that this is why it says on the SMH's website that "pine pollen can shrink the Prostate if it's inflamed or grow the Prostate of its to small".

My thoughts about the gibberellins study:

Even though we know 5 alpha reductase inhibitors typically can raise testosterone levels it's uncommon for a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor to also have anabolic properties. This makes gibberellins unique in the regard that it "acts as testosterone" in the body but at the same time it can inhibit the 5 alpha reductase enzymes. Maybe this has the potential to be significant for guys who are sensitive to taking 5 alpha reductase inhibitors as this is may be a way to inhibit the enzyme but at the same time with the protection of its anabolic properties.

Also the study seems to suggest that when the gibberellins inhibit 5 alpha reductase it's doing so within the prostate and not on a systematic level. This could be groundbreaking for someone who suffers from an enlarged prostate and who is also extremely sensitive to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors like my self. Of course the only other known effective alternative to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors is surgery when it comes to treating an enlarged prostate.

Question for CDnuts.

1) are you still taking pine pollen ?

2) how long have you been taking the pine pollen ?

3) if you took the time out to read the gibberellins study, what are your thoughts?

4) have you noticed or felt anything while taking pine pollen that would make you believe it's problematic for 5Ar sensitive guys?

Just an FYI. I am by no means trying to challenge Pine Pollen. I just wanted to post this just incase it it does have the ability to act as a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor and you are not aware.
Nothing but good things to say about pine pollen. Its g2g.

5 alpha victim
05-17-2015, 05:00 PM
Nice. That puts my mind at ease. I am eager to start taking pine pollen and pine pollen tincture that I already have.

I'm going through a phase of being more paranoid than usual about 5AR inhibitors after confirming that my T levels recently crashed. I suspect that a fish oil supplement that I have been taking for the last three months is to blame.

I think this paragraph from the gibberellins study says everything we need to know:

"If the concentration of gibberellins or gibberellin precursors in the prostate is high enough, the 5 -α reductase can be blocked by the gibberellins or the gibberellin precursors"

It's making it sound like if Gibberellins inhibit 5AR it's only in the Prostate. Also it's making it clear that only if the gibberellins content in the Prostate is high enough will it inhibit DHT.

English
02-11-2016, 11:40 AM
Nah.....dont mind. It's been quite a while since I've seen that post. Looking at it again now, that was exactly what I said it was, just the bones of it. There were also little intricacies here and there that totaled out the program.

But seeing as 90% of the guys couldn't even stay on the barebones version, there was no sense in me adding anymore to it.

I never understood it...guys were offing themselves because they're stuck in such a desperate state, yet most of them just couldn't follow a simple program to get themselves on the road to being better. It always amazed me. I would have (and did) done anything.

Seeing as we're on this whole topic, I've been experimenting over the past two years with some exponentially more powerful herbs then the ones I recommended in that recovery post. As a matter of fact, if I had to do it again, I would recommend a better, stronger more effective group of herbs then I did a few years ago. I'm finding these new experiments so good, that this summer is going to be my last time using exogenous hormones. (Just because I have one last batch of AHv3 and AMv3.)

I'm actually gonna get a blood test to see where things are at because I've been feeling completely juiced lately, and I'm 100% natty.

Maybe it's just a cumulative effect of me living my life the way I outlined in that post. I've never stopped doing all of those things. It's been years. It's just my way of life now. That being said, the inclusion of these new herbs have really taken things to the next level. I feel better now at 37 then I did at 27. I've never been one to do bloods but I'm so curious lately.

You're teasing us CD with your mention of wonder herbs without telling us which ones and where? I'm still a sucker for them, so give us the names, where to get them from, and ideally a European supplier!!!
Also, yes get your bloods done (on an empty stomach BTW) you need to get well over 900 to take me down!!!!!!!!!

Cdsnuts
02-12-2016, 04:22 PM
You're teasing us CD with your mention of wonder herbs without telling us which ones and where? I'm still a sucker for them, so give us the names, where to get them from, and ideally a European supplier!!!
Also, yes get your bloods done (on an empty stomach BTW) you need to get well over 900 to take me down!!!!!!!!!

Lol. Here you go. Super Man Herbs - Pine Pollen, Mushrooms, Shilajit and More (https://jt231.isrefer.com/go/supermanherbs/cdsnuts/) ALL of their herbs are of the highest quality and some of the best stuff I've ever used. And i've used alot. I've spent thousands of dollars trying different supplements to boost testosterone naturally and superman herbs hands down is the best. Others here that have tried them would say the same thing. Once you try their stuff you can actually see how watered down some of the other stuff on the market is.

Lookingforhelp
03-04-2016, 07:13 AM
Hi CDsnuts. I've followed you for some time now and I appreciate that you are way behind the finasteride stuff and it's all documented well. I've read a lot into your regime.

I'm a little crappy with these forums too and not quite sure how to private message you so hope you don't mind me hijacking this.

A brief story of myself. A couple of years ago now I began to get very fatigued and tired. I had a physical job so put it down to this at the time. I'd always had a strong libido and ravenous drive. I began taking these male vitamins for a boost. I ran out of the 20 odd pills. I then looked at the active ingredients. One was saw palmetto? I had never heard of this so googled. Instantly as you read it mentions increasing sex drive and male impotence... And at the same time helps hair loss? I thought great. I'll buy some of this stuff.

After one pill of swansons saw palmetto I woke the next day with hell. Cold shrunken dick, no life, ed. it's like a switch had been turned off over night. I managed to recover when on holiday to Mexico a few weeks later. Maybe the vit d helped?

Coming back I began to feel worse, I began to get ravaged with aches and pains, diarrhoea, no libido again, ed. blood flow began to return to my dick but had prostate pain. Urologist said it was prostatits. I took some antibiotics which seemed to help.

I was then in hospital for a week with pericarditis which is an inflammatory condition of the heart, basically I was crippled with inflammation.

My bloods have always been okay. 3 adiol g etc fine. I suffered with low cortisol for a while, maybe from all the inflammation, e2 never been an issue. Testosterone has been good, free and total. The only thing I've suffered with for two years has been raised prolactin. I tried cabergoline a few times and it helped immensely but prolactin would always come back. I have no tumor.

I then did much research into prolactin burnout and autoimmune. I kept begging for tests for autoimmune disorders butnthendocs wouldn't have it despite my gut issues. Eventually I managed to get checked for celiacs disease. It came back positive! Great, I thought this would be the answer. I began a gluten free diet, I managed to rid myself of a little brain fog, cold hands and feet weren't a constant issue anymore, body temperature rose... Blood test for prolactin 2 months later was in a normal range. For once!!

Doing reading into celiac and hormones i came across this.

Infertility, obstetric and gynaecological problems in coeliac sprue. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7988065)
Abstract
There is now substantial evidence that coeliac sprue is associated with infertility both in men and women. In women it can also lead to delayed menarche, amenorrhoea, early menopause, recurrent abortions, and a reduced pregnancy rate. In men it can cause hypogonadism, immature secondary sex characteristics and reduce semen quality. The real mechanism by which coeliac sprue produces these changes is unclear, but factors such as malnutrition, iron, folate and zinc deficiencies have all been implicated. In addition in men gonadal dysfunction is believed to be due to reduced conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone caused by low levels of 5 alpha-reductase in coeliac sprue. This leads to derangement of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. Hyperprolactinaemia is seen in 25% of coeliac patients, which causes impotence and loss of libido. Gluten withdrawal and correction of deficient dietary elements can lead to a return of fertility both in men and women.

I could not believe what I was seeing. I now think I've suffered with gluten and celiac sensitivity for years without knowing, but it never seemed to effect me sexually that much. It mentions androgen insensitivity! When I first got really sick, my testosterone levels where high at 26. Looking at this study I would presume my dht levels were low. Drs fobbed me off saying it was all in my head.
Prolactin has an effect on 5 alpha reductase, I've read studies that it enhances the 5 alpha reductive enzyme in the testes, and others that show it blocks the enzyme in other areas.

Anyway, being gluten free, my prolactin is down but my testosterone has slumped. My dht sits at a good level though.
I'm still so so fatigued, my sleep is better, but libidos and erections are crap. I get nocturnal and morning wood but they aren't as strong as they should be. I still suffer with my mind and drive. I'm hoping being of gluten will repair me. Maybe when this first happened had I gone strict gluten this wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, I hope you are well and I respect you for your diligence. I can't stand the PH website, all moaning and gloom, yet no one is prepared to stop going out drinking, they keep eating shit. It's like you said, how badly do you want it. I've changed every aspect of my life for this. I just need to recover my sexual sides.

One question, do you need to keep cycling the herbs to function sexually? Or are you recovered even when off them?

For me I'm wondering what came first? What caused this? The celiacs or saw palmetto? Did saw palmetto set this off? I know one of the factors that got you better was diet. I just wanted to share this with people in case it helps. I think lowering 5 alpha to low levels changes something in our guts. Whether you have celiacs or not, I think gluten should be cut out for anyone suffering from propecia etc.

entropy
03-04-2016, 10:58 AM
Is it really that hard to make your own thread? Try reading CDs threads on the other site... Then come back here and ask for help. What is it you're asking here anyway?

English
03-04-2016, 12:17 PM
Hi CDsnuts. I've followed you for some time now and I appreciate that you are way behind the finasteride stuff and it's all documented well. I've read a lot into your regime.

I'm a little crappy with these forums too and not quite sure how to private message you so hope you don't mind me hijacking this.

A brief story of myself. A couple of years ago now I began to get very fatigued and tired. I had a physical job so put it down to this at the time. I'd always had a strong libido and ravenous drive. I began taking these male vitamins for a boost. I ran out of the 20 odd pills. I then looked at the active ingredients. One was saw palmetto? I had never heard of this so googled. Instantly as you read it mentions increasing sex drive and male impotence... And at the same time helps hair loss? I thought great. I'll buy some of this stuff.

After one pill of swansons saw palmetto I woke the next day with hell. Cold shrunken dick, no life, ed. it's like a switch had been turned off over night. I managed to recover when on holiday to Mexico a few weeks later. Maybe the vit d helped?

Coming back I began to feel worse, I began to get ravaged with aches and pains, diarrhoea, no libido again, ed. blood flow began to return to my dick but had prostate pain. Urologist said it was prostatits. I took some antibiotics which seemed to help.

I was then in hospital for a week with pericarditis which is an inflammatory condition of the heart, basically I was crippled with inflammation.

My bloods have always been okay. 3 adiol g etc fine. I suffered with low cortisol for a while, maybe from all the inflammation, e2 never been an issue. Testosterone has been good, free and total. The only thing I've suffered with for two years has been raised prolactin. I tried cabergoline a few times and it helped immensely but prolactin would always come back. I have no tumor.

I then did much research into prolactin burnout and autoimmune. I kept begging for tests for autoimmune disorders butnthendocs wouldn't have it despite my gut issues. Eventually I managed to get checked for celiacs disease. It came back positive! Great, I thought this would be the answer. I began a gluten free diet, I managed to rid myself of a little brain fog, cold hands and feet weren't a constant issue anymore, body temperature rose... Blood test for prolactin 2 months later was in a normal range. For once!!

Doing reading into celiac and hormones i came across this.

Infertility, obstetric and gynaecological problems in coeliac sprue. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7988065)
Abstract
There is now substantial evidence that coeliac sprue is associated with infertility both in men and women. In women it can also lead to delayed menarche, amenorrhoea, early menopause, recurrent abortions, and a reduced pregnancy rate. In men it can cause hypogonadism, immature secondary sex characteristics and reduce semen quality. The real mechanism by which coeliac sprue produces these changes is unclear, but factors such as malnutrition, iron, folate and zinc deficiencies have all been implicated. In addition in men gonadal dysfunction is believed to be due to reduced conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone caused by low levels of 5 alpha-reductase in coeliac sprue. This leads to derangement of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. Hyperprolactinaemia is seen in 25% of coeliac patients, which causes impotence and loss of libido. Gluten withdrawal and correction of deficient dietary elements can lead to a return of fertility both in men and women.

I could not believe what I was seeing. I now think I've suffered with gluten and celiac sensitivity for years without knowing, but it never seemed to effect me sexually that much. It mentions androgen insensitivity! When I first got really sick, my testosterone levels where high at 26. Looking at this study I would presume my dht levels were low. Drs fobbed me off saying it was all in my head.
Prolactin has an effect on 5 alpha reductase, I've read studies that it enhances the 5 alpha reductive enzyme in the testes, and others that show it blocks the enzyme in other areas.

Anyway, being gluten free, my prolactin is down but my testosterone has slumped. My dht sits at a good level though.
I'm still so so fatigued, my sleep is better, but libidos and erections are crap. I get nocturnal and morning wood but they aren't as strong as they should be. I still suffer with my mind and drive. I'm hoping being of gluten will repair me. Maybe when this first happened had I gone strict gluten this wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, I hope you are well and I respect you for your diligence. I can't stand the PH website, all moaning and gloom, yet no one is prepared to stop going out drinking, they keep eating shit. It's like you said, how badly do you want it. I've changed every aspect of my life for this. I just need to recover my sexual sides.

One question, do you need to keep cycling the herbs to function sexually? Or are you recovered even when off them?

For me I'm wondering what came first? What caused this? The celiacs or saw palmetto? Did saw palmetto set this off? I know one of the factors that got you better was diet. I just wanted to share this with people in case it helps. I think lowering 5 alpha to low levels changes something in our guts. Whether you have celiacs or not, I think gluten should be cut out for anyone suffering from propecia etc.

Like entropy said, you should start your own thread - put it in mens health and ancillary medication. There is a sub thread there for PFS. No-one can tell you which came first, particularly as you became fatigued and sought vitamins etc. for a boost. This could well have been the start of your coeliac condition. Looks like the saw palmetto caused the rest though and is consistent with hundreds of other saw palmetto stories.
You will recover if you do the right things consistently for months and maybe even years. I am recovered fully and many others have to, but the common denominator for the vast majority of those that have recovered is a positive outlook and excellent diet and exercise etc. over a long period of time. It is character building stuff, and one day you will realise that PFS made you the man you will become. You don't need direct contact with CD, just read all his posts as everything you need is written already by him on these boards and on PH.

Lookingforhelp
03-04-2016, 01:53 PM
I was just merely discussing and confirming his recovery regime and that it must be a massive part of what's going wrong. I thought I would add to this thread seen as its to do with saw palmetto too and if anyone is going through it too it might help

I've read every single thing he's ever written, I stated that in what I wrote earlier. And I apologise I'm not great with computers and forums.

My question was does he need to be cycling herbs continually or is he okay without?

Cdsnuts
03-05-2016, 07:24 AM
I was just merely discussing and confirming his recovery regime and that it must be a massive part of what's going wrong. I thought I would add to this thread seen as its to do with saw palmetto too and if anyone is going through it too it might help

I've read every single thing he's ever written, I stated that in what I wrote earlier. And I apologise I'm not great with computers and forums.

My question was does he need to be cycling herbs continually or is he okay without?

I don't NEED to do anything anymore if I don't want to. I CHOOSE to continually cycle the herbs I've written about because of the way it makes me feel. The same way I CHOOSE to do PH cycles once or twice a year. I enjoy them greatly. Why would you settle for "normal" or mediocre when you can be alpha all the time?

To clarify...I function normally without any assistance whatsoever. No Pde5's, no hormones, no herbs. I'm 100%. But to say that I am happy I found these herbs is an understatement. What you don't realize now in your state, is that when you do recover, they are life changing plants. They enhance my life in so many ways, not just sexually. They increase my strength and endurance in the gym. They aid in muscle building. They add to my overall well being, vitality and good mood. They are actually healthy to take because they are loaded with bio-available vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals that aid and enhance the function of the human body, thus aiding and enhancing your life itself. Honestly, I don't know why people don't take them......aside from the taste maybe.....the taste is god awful....lol.

Some people enjoy tobacco, or running 5ks, or drinking too much (I enjoy this too) I enjoy taking these herbs daily. It's a life practice, like any other life practice. I also still meditate on an almost daily basis, but no one seems to ask about that? Why is this? Or no one asks if I still lift weights or eat Modified Paleo and backload? The only thing people seem to be hung up on is whether I still cycle herbs? I don't get it? I do these things because of what they do for me and how they make me feel. Just like anyone would do anything.

Do I need to......no. Just like someone doesn't need to smoke, or drink, or run 5ks.

Lookingforhelp
03-05-2016, 09:17 AM
That's great CD. In no way was I trying to come across as intrusive to your recovery, I respect what you are saying entirely. I just didn't see much in your previous postings about whether cycling the herbs was still something you had to do to keep results. If it was there then I apologise.

I haven't tried cycling the herbs yet, I've been a little hesitant to touch any since saw palmetto but educating myself makes me realise that it could help me. For a long time I couldn't believe that something natural could do this to me! I've changed many aspects of my life for the better, my diet has never been bad, but cutting out gluten is a way of life for me and something I'll never change. I like knowing I'm putting only the best things in my body. I have so much more appreciation for it now. I still keep active and a positive outlook, something that is a massive help.

I'm sure once I've discovered what works for me and what makes me feel the best I can , I will stick to it like yourself.

My one last question for you is if you suffered any exercise intolerance from your original sides? I'm very lean and muscular anyway and always been fit, however, After excercising I seem to crash, get insomnia, hyperglycaemic almost.very light headed. The reason why I ask this is Drs I've seen say I may have some sort of adrenal fatigue and hard exercise will impair my recovery. It's knowing whether to plough through and it will help, or plough through and make myself worse. I know you don't have a magic answer, just wondering if you could relate at all!

And I appreciate your response, the reason I don't want to get myself involved much with the propecia help gang is that it is literally all doom and gloom. Jumping from one theory to the next without putting anything into practice. Arguing about whether it's autoimmune, whether they are going to kill themselves, fuck that. I want to get well and I will. I wanted to talk to you because I liked your attitude and your level headedness. If I messaged one of them I would most likely get the response of that their lives are fucked,they are going to kill themselves, donate to the study. Fuck the study, I'm not waiting on anyone for my change. I'll change it myself.

Hearing that you are 100% normal again gives me hope. I needed that today. Thanks

Cdsnuts
03-05-2016, 10:55 AM
That's great CD. In no way was I trying to come across as intrusive to your recovery, I respect what you are saying entirely. I just didn't see much in your previous postings about whether cycling the herbs was still something you had to do to keep results. If it was there then I apologise.

I haven't tried cycling the herbs yet, I've been a little hesitant to touch any since saw palmetto but educating myself makes me realise that it could help me. For a long time I couldn't believe that something natural could do this to me! I've changed many aspects of my life for the better, my diet has never been bad, but cutting out gluten is a way of life for me and something I'll never change. I like knowing I'm putting only the best things in my body. I have so much more appreciation for it now. I still keep active and a positive outlook, something that is a massive help.

I'm sure once I've discovered what works for me and what makes me feel the best I can , I will stick to it like yourself.

My one last question for you is if you suffered any exercise intolerance from your original sides? I'm very lean and muscular anyway and always been fit, however, After excercising I seem to crash, get insomnia, hyperglycaemic almost.very light headed. The reason why I ask this is Drs I've seen say I may have some sort of adrenal fatigue and hard exercise will impair my recovery. It's knowing whether to plough through and it will help, or plough through and make myself worse. I know you don't have a magic answer, just wondering if you could relate at all!

And I appreciate your response, the reason I don't want to get myself involved much with the propecia help gang is that it is literally all doom and gloom. Jumping from one theory to the next without putting anything into practice. Arguing about whether it's autoimmune, whether they are going to kill themselves, fuck that. I want to get well and I will. I wanted to talk to you because I liked your attitude and your level headedness. If I messaged one of them I would most likely get the response of that their lives are fucked,they are going to kill themselves, donate to the study. Fuck the study, I'm not waiting on anyone for my change. I'll change it myself.

Hearing that you are 100% normal again gives me hope. I needed that today. Thanks

I'm glad it helps you in some way.....now maybe you can help me.....

If you've read all of my posts as you indicate then you must know that I've considered myself healed since my recovery post which was in 2012 I believe? I wrote that post for a reason, yet guys still feel the need to ask me personally? Can you answer the question as to why? I'm very curious of this phenomenon? I wrote that I'm healed.....on more then one occasion....yet people still need to ask me? It puzzles me?

And...after following my 1000+ posts over at PH, and following the natural progression of things from the beginning to the end, of which I documented everything, most importantly coming back after an extended absence to let everyone there know that I was 100% again...you still personally felt the need to ask? Can you explain why?

I know the tone is quite direct but I'm seriously asking.......

entropy
03-05-2016, 11:22 AM
They ask because they want you to say "no, it's not as good anymore" then they can justify dropping the program when they don't see results after one workout XD. My thoughts any who.

Cdsnuts
03-05-2016, 11:30 AM
They ask because they want you to say "no, it's not as good anymore" then they can justify dropping the program when they don't see results after one workout XD. My thoughts any who.

I was just thinking the same thing. My thoughts were maybe these guys that are always asking despite the massive amount of reading material on the subject by not just me, but others, are actually looking for a "way out." They want to ask me if I had symptom "fill in the blank" and then depending on if I did, or didn't, they would make their decision on whether they wanted to make all of these lifestyle and dietary changes.

Thing is....the answer to the problem is always going to be the same for the most part. You can't go wrong doing what is right for your system. Alot of these guys will recover within 6 months if they're serious. The others, the more serious cases, will take longer, but they will still get there none the less doing the same thing as everyone else.

And....it doesn't matter how much it's said by everyone who recovers.....it really amazes me.

Lookingforhelp
03-05-2016, 11:43 AM
In your protocol you mention you are healed and you cycle herbs. I wasn't sure as to whether you meant this without the herbs to sustain results. Like I said, I've followed everything to my knowledge, but I'm shit with computers and working the forums so I might have missed some stuff along the way.

I think I can help you understand why guys still message you..

you know the dark place it can be when you are in this shit... How lonely you feel? Talking to someone that's been in a similar position helps. Especially one who's beaten it, talking to someone who is as fucked as you helps to a degree but it still doesn't quite have the same effect. It's like a recovering addict talking to someone who's overcome their addiction. It gives you strength. It's the same thing, You aren't a god, you are a normal guy, (don't take it offiensively) but you have to get that people perceive you in that kind of way because you are one of a few that actually beat it and spoke about it. I'm not brown nosing you, don't get me wrong. I don't think it's that people can't be bothered to read what you've already spoken about before, they just want some recognition that everything is going to be okay. I'm not scared to show a bit of fucking weakness, it adds to my strength.

Whether you like it or not your story gives people a belief that there might be a way out of this eventually. You lived it 5 years, you get my jist.

Lookingforhelp
03-05-2016, 11:48 AM
They ask because they want you to say "no, it's not as good anymore" then they can justify dropping the program when they don't see results after one workout XD. My thoughts any who.

Try not to be so fucking ignorant when you know nothing about me?

- - - Updated - - -


They ask because they want you to say "no, it's not as good anymore" then they can justify dropping the program when they don't see results after one workout XD. My thoughts any who.

Try not to be so fucking ignorant when you know nothing about me?

entropy
03-05-2016, 12:24 PM
I know enough about you to know your question about CDs herb cycle is answered multiple times on this forum and the other one. On top of all that fella, I clearly wasn't talking to you... Being one of the guys who actually followed/made the program my own, I think I'm qualified to comment on why people always ask that damned question. Cause the program is daunting and most of them don't have what it takes. Dig deep, follow the program, contribute to the forum and we're totally happy to help... We're just so tired of a fin kids coming here repeating the same old lines.

Lookingforhelp
03-05-2016, 12:33 PM
I was just thinking the same thing. My thoughts were maybe these guys that are always asking despite the massive amount of reading material on the subject by not just me, but others, are actually looking for a "way out." They want to ask me if I had symptom "fill in the blank" and then depending on if I did, or didn't, they would make their decision on whether they wanted to make all of these lifestyle and dietary changes.

Thing is....the answer to the problem is always going to be the same for the most part. You can't go wrong doing what is right for your system. Alot of these guys will recover within 6 months if they're serious. The others, the more serious cases, will take longer, but they will still get there none the less doing the same thing as everyone else.

And....it doesn't matter how much it's said by everyone who recovers.....it really amazes me.


I asked you for your thoughts? That's all. Originally I was mentioning diet and the gluten component to it all?? I don't really appreciate being referred to as one of "these guys". I'm no different to you, I excercise, I've changed my diet most likely more than many. I don't smoke, drink, I live the healthiest lifestyle I possibly can. I find it insulting you stout me with the rest of them who wallow in self pity. I try fucking hard, and I do whatever it takes. I've changed my lifestyle! I get defensive about it because Being told you aren't trying when you know you are is a little insulting.

Lookingforhelp
03-05-2016, 12:43 PM
I know enough about you to know your question about CDs herb cycle is answered multiple times on this forum and the other one. On top of all that fella, I clearly wasn't talking to you... Being one of the guys who actually followed/made the program my own, I think I'm qualified to comment on why people always ask that damned question. Cause the program is daunting and most of them don't have what it takes. Dig deep, follow the program, contribute to the forum and we're totally happy to help... We're just so tired of a fin kids coming here repeating the same old lines.

And I appreciate that entirely and I get what you are saying. But I have what it takes, it's not in my nature to give up and fail. Wine and moan. The only person that can change anything about you is yourself. I have and would do anything. I get you are fed up of the same old shit being spouted again too.

At the end of it, I'm a genuine guy, I'm a nice guy. I'm fucking determined to beat it. I lost my business to this illness, I had my own construction company which I had to give up because I simply couldn't work anymore from everything was going on. I'm going to get it all back, for my daughter, my fiancé and myself.

I'm shit with computers, that's fair. And I apologised for that, just don't oust me as loser who can't be bothered. That's all I ask. Thanks for the offer for help. I may be back in the future.

entropy
03-05-2016, 12:45 PM
Well then tell us what you do. I can't speak for cd, but I'm happy to offer opinions based on that. As for diet, I've no diagnosed sensitivity but I avoid gluten anyway.

That last post reminds me of English actually. Very similar.

Lookingforhelp
03-05-2016, 02:04 PM
I currently do press ups and sit ups every day. I do weights a couple of times a week. I've tried running but it seems to make me crash? I have this excercise intolerance. I'm not sure if it's a pfs symptom or a fatigue thing from something else going on in my body. Maybe the years of inflammation from celiac? That's why I asked cd about whether that was something he noticed.

I used to be able to run with ease, not anymore, it doesn't make me sleep well? I get insomnia and feel to wired. I get extremely dizzy and the next day sexually I'll be worse.
However, if I can't face running, I make sure I go on long quick paced walks Everyday. Sounds pathetic I know but that's where I'm at. I just wasn't sure if this sort of fatigue was part of Pfs?

I know fast intense sprinting etc is recommended. Maybe I should try that instead of longer runs?

Lookingforhelp
03-05-2016, 02:45 PM
Oh, and I take b complex, vitamin d3 every morning. Occasionally vitamin c. I take magnesium an hour or two before bed as it helps with sleep. No caffeine or any stimulants including tea. Definitely no alcohol. Seem to have grown intolerant to it? Find it to stimulating strangely.

Protein for breakfast, usually yog and granola with fruits or eggs/salmon spinach.

Protein for lunch and dinner always. Either fresh fish or chicken are my favourites. Fruits and raw veg all day every day for snacks. No crisps or processed sugars.

Cdsnuts
03-06-2016, 10:15 AM
I asked you for your thoughts? That's all. Originally I was mentioning diet and the gluten component to it all?? I don't really appreciate being referred to as one of "these guys". I'm no different to you, I excercise, I've changed my diet most likely more than many. I don't smoke, drink, I live the healthiest lifestyle I possibly can. I find it insulting you stout me with the rest of them who wallow in self pity. I try fucking hard, and I do whatever it takes. I've changed my lifestyle! I get defensive about it because Being told you aren't trying when you know you are is a little insulting.

Fair enough.....

I think you need to go slower with exerting yourself if those are your symptoms. You can and WILL make yourself worse if you go to fast and are suffering from adrenal burnout. Been there, done that.

Have you cleansed? If this is what you're dealing with, you need to take a couple steps back before you can go forward. You're not quite there yet at the point where you can be sprinting and lifting heavy. If you haven't cleansed I'd suggest a juice feast for a few weeks. You need to hit the reset button and FLOOD yours system with that goodness.

Afterwords, when you've started eating....cleanly.....go for loooong walks. Everyday. Add in calisthenics until you can build up to a decent amount of push ups, pulls ups, body weight squats, etc. Do each exercise on a different day and then take a day off, except for the walking...continue to do that, daily. Once you get to the point where you feel you don't need the day off, continue to do calisthenics every day. After about two months of DAILY calisthenics, you can progress to weights.

GO SLOW. Monitor how you feel after each work out. Heed what your system is telling you....you'll know when you can force the issue or not. Do this, and if you do this, just as I'm telling you, then come back here in three months and tell us of your progress.

We can go from there. Good luck.

Btw....once you're refed and working out for almost a month, you need to start herb cycling. They help build up your system, which you desperately need to do.

Lookingforhelp
03-06-2016, 01:59 PM
I did a water fast for 5 days when I got ill. Wasn't sure if it did much! I then did a juice fast for a week last year but maybe it's time for another. The only thing that put me off doing another one recently was the fact I'm already lean, didn't want to lose any muscle and waste away.. But it would probably do me good to detox.

I seem to have low b12 so going to try and get some shots. Hopefully that can help with energy and some mental sides. I do take it sublingually but I think for people with celiacs you are comprised at absorbing it already.

Confusing thing for me is I appear to be the most alpha guy you could see. My hair is still receding, my body hair is crazy and still turning up everywhere. I don't have shrunken nuts. Never did. My junk is no longer cold, ever! And I don't suffer with hard flaccid. It looks completely normal.

Like you stated in the past, I feel like my problem is neurogical. Some days the brain penis connection is there, most of the time it's not. When I'm mentally there, my dick is there. It's hard to describe. It is like that dead spot in my head. Dopamine agonists revert me to near normal so I think there maybe something dopamine related at play. I get loads of spontaneous erections and a massive flaccid hang n cabergoline.. Then it wears off after a couple of weeks. Another reason for believing it is dopamine related is that I have periods of restless legs. My grandfather has this but it at my age? Maybe I was genetically susceptible to it.

It's also strange, my body can't seem to cope with stress as much. I was doing pretty good, then my partner gave birth to our daughter with a few complications. Few weeks of stress set me back. I get the fatigue and the dizziness, hyperglycaemic feelings after food.
Dht has a calming effect on the nervous system. Maybe saw palmetto did a number in my brain. I'm going to try and do some meditating. Reading articles on this as we speak.

Thanks for taking me seriously. I'm doing this myself, the work has to come from me, but a few gentle nudges in the right direction sometimes helps a lot. I'm going to lay off the heavy excercising and try and get back to a better baseline. The weathers been good today so I've been for a fairly long walk.

But yeah anyway, I'll report back in a few months!

entropy
03-07-2016, 03:50 PM
Diet? When I hear healthy from 90% of people I hear low fat and those saturated animal fats especially are - crucial- for getting better from this. You need a big 'ol supply of cholesterol for optimal hormonal production. How's your sleep/rest? You need as much rest as you can physically get outside of the working out, don't push yourself etc. Stop with daily pushups and sit ups etc and focus more on heavy compound stuff 3x per week. Short sessions. 5x5 style worked best for me but you mileage may vary.

English
03-11-2016, 05:58 AM
I asked you for your thoughts? That's all. Originally I was mentioning diet and the gluten component to it all?? I don't really appreciate being referred to as one of "these guys". I'm no different to you, I excercise, I've changed my diet most likely more than many. I don't smoke, drink, I live the healthiest lifestyle I possibly can. I find it insulting you stout me with the rest of them who wallow in self pity. I try fucking hard, and I do whatever it takes. I've changed my lifestyle! I get defensive about it because Being told you aren't trying when you know you are is a little insulting.

Personally i think you sound a good guy and you got a hard time that you didn't deserve, it's a very hard place you are coming from and you got some stick mainly because so many others are total pricks. I think there's nothing wrong with not retaining everything after reading a thousand posts from someone, and i think it is understable to want to speak with the person themselves after reading so much. Fact is you don't need to though, and you should also look at others who have recovered to spot the common denominators.

English
03-11-2016, 06:09 AM
I currently do press ups and sit ups every day. I do weights a couple of times a week. I've tried running but it seems to make me crash? I have this excercise intolerance. I'm not sure if it's a pfs symptom or a fatigue thing from something else going on in my body. Maybe the years of inflammation from celiac? That's why I asked cd about whether that was something he noticed.

I used to be able to run with ease, not anymore, it doesn't make me sleep well? I get insomnia and feel to wired. I get extremely dizzy and the next day sexually I'll be worse.
However, if I can't face running, I make sure I go on long quick paced walks Everyday. Sounds pathetic I know but that's where I'm at. I just wasn't sure if this sort of fatigue was part of Pfs?

I know fast intense sprinting etc is recommended. Maybe I should try that instead of longer runs?

I had all these problems with exercise, i ignored all the symptoms and saw it as a challenge to do it while dizzy etc. Plymetrics, calisthetic type exercises, never worry about your bodies response regards dizzy and fatigue as long as it is just that, and not total burn out, and you can learn to spot the difference. Obvioulsy i don't mean exercise until you drop, i just mean do sprints / interval training on a bike up hills, that kind of thing, weights, calishenic and plymetric exercises, as much power as you can for short bursts of 20 to 30 minutes. It won't kill you despite every fibre of you feeling like giving up, just push through. Take citrulline malate which helps with performance and fatigue along with the herb rotation, take spirulina, chlorella daily. Ignore totally your dick and sexual health for weeks at a time, just concentrate on full body health, and revel in a massively healthy lifestyle, most of all get your mind and thoughts in order, once you have all the information, fuck off from forums and live and think like healthy guys do, except in this super healthy way. Things come back fairly quickly once you think normally again combined with the regimen. Ignore the dizziness, ignore the fatigue, laugh about it, liberate yourself from it and don't keep trying to work out what it is, just move your thoughts to other normal stuff.

- - - Updated - - -


I currently do press ups and sit ups every day. I do weights a couple of times a week. I've tried running but it seems to make me crash? I have this excercise intolerance. I'm not sure if it's a pfs symptom or a fatigue thing from something else going on in my body. Maybe the years of inflammation from celiac? That's why I asked cd about whether that was something he noticed.

I used to be able to run with ease, not anymore, it doesn't make me sleep well? I get insomnia and feel to wired. I get extremely dizzy and the next day sexually I'll be worse.
However, if I can't face running, I make sure I go on long quick paced walks Everyday. Sounds pathetic I know but that's where I'm at. I just wasn't sure if this sort of fatigue was part of Pfs?

I know fast intense sprinting etc is recommended. Maybe I should try that instead of longer runs?

read my post on sleeping in the general section on ss, it will help you enormously

English
03-11-2016, 06:19 AM
Oh, and I take b complex, vitamin d3 every morning. Occasionally vitamin c. I take magnesium an hour or two before bed as it helps with sleep. No caffeine or any stimulants including tea. Definitely no alcohol. Seem to have grown intolerant to it? Find it to stimulating strangely.

Protein for breakfast, usually yog and granola with fruits or eggs/salmon spinach.

Protein for lunch and dinner always. Either fresh fish or chicken are my favourites. Fruits and raw veg all day every day for snacks. No crisps or processed sugars.

IMO you shouldn't need to take vit c if you eat fruit and veg all day, and doesn't granola have a load of sugar in it? Salmon is usually very estrogenic after being pumped full of crap in salmon farms unless you pay alot for them. Don't eat them or anything out of tins either as full of BPA. Get an organic delivery company to deliver proper food to your door if possible, including grass fed beef etc.
Why take protein when you are already eating a shit load of protein? Many people react badly to excess protein supplementation so why take that risk when you are eating plenty and not even able to exercise fully anyhow? You should put every decision through a logic gate. Why are you doing this? Can this damage? Bottom line is if you cut out sugar and gluten, and eat as organic as possible plus eat spirulina, chlorella + herbs including pine pollen (as per cd's post), your body will have everything it needs. Keeping it simple cuts out worry and a sense that your ill.

English
03-11-2016, 06:23 AM
Fair enough.....

I think you need to go slower with exerting yourself if those are your symptoms. You can and WILL make yourself worse if you go to fast and are suffering from adrenal burnout. Been there, done that.

Have you cleansed? If this is what you're dealing with, you need to take a couple steps back before you can go forward. You're not quite there yet at the point where you can be sprinting and lifting heavy. If you haven't cleansed I'd suggest a juice feast for a few weeks. You need to hit the reset button and FLOOD yours system with that goodness.

Afterwords, when you've started eating....cleanly.....go for loooong walks. Everyday. Add in calisthenics until you can build up to a decent amount of push ups, pulls ups, body weight squats, etc. Do each exercise on a different day and then take a day off, except for the walking...continue to do that, daily. Once you get to the point where you feel you don't need the day off, continue to do calisthenics every day. After about two months of DAILY calisthenics, you can progress to weights.

GO SLOW. Monitor how you feel after each work out. Heed what your system is telling you....you'll know when you can force the issue or not. Do this, and if you do this, just as I'm telling you, then come back here in three months and tell us of your progress.

We can go from there. Good luck.

Btw....once you're refed and working out for almost a month, you need to start herb cycling. They help build up your system, which you desperately need to do.

LOL, i suggested you push through, CD suggests otherwise!! I guess CD's advice is logical and probably the more sensible approach, just telling you what i did earlier that worked for me after mirroring your issues. Please note that i had lots of bloods showing that thyroid etc. was in good shape. If it wasn't, i wouldn't have pushed through...

English
03-11-2016, 06:31 AM
I did a water fast for 5 days when I got ill. Wasn't sure if it did much! I then did a juice fast for a week last year but maybe it's time for another. The only thing that put me off doing another one recently was the fact I'm already lean, didn't want to lose any muscle and waste away.. But it would probably do me good to detox.

I seem to have low b12 so going to try and get some shots. Hopefully that can help with energy and some mental sides. I do take it sublingually but I think for people with celiacs you are comprised at absorbing it already.

Confusing thing for me is I appear to be the most alpha guy you could see. My hair is still receding, my body hair is crazy and still turning up everywhere. I don't have shrunken nuts. Never did. My junk is no longer cold, ever! And I don't suffer with hard flaccid. It looks completely normal.

Like you stated in the past, I feel like my problem is neurogical. Some days the brain penis connection is there, most of the time it's not. When I'm mentally there, my dick is there. It's hard to describe. It is like that dead spot in my head. Dopamine agonists revert me to near normal so I think there maybe something dopamine related at play. I get loads of spontaneous erections and a massive flaccid hang n cabergoline.. Then it wears off after a couple of weeks. Another reason for believing it is dopamine related is that I have periods of restless legs. My grandfather has this but it at my age? Maybe I was genetically susceptible to it.

It's also strange, my body can't seem to cope with stress as much. I was doing pretty good, then my partner gave birth to our daughter with a few complications. Few weeks of stress set me back. I get the fatigue and the dizziness, hyperglycaemic feelings after food.
Dht has a calming effect on the nervous system. Maybe saw palmetto did a number in my brain. I'm going to try and do some meditating. Reading articles on this as we speak.

Thanks for taking me seriously. I'm doing this myself, the work has to come from me, but a few gentle nudges in the right direction sometimes helps a lot. I'm going to lay off the heavy excercising and try and get back to a better baseline. The weathers been good today so I've been for a fairly long walk.

But yeah anyway, I'll report back in a few months!

I don't think i ever told anyone my symptoms as i wasn't interested in that mindset, but actually the description of yours on this thread is the closest to how i was that i have read. I even suffer from restless leg syndrome, have all my life. Magnesium helps with this i think (glyncinate version). I totally agree that the brain/dick connection via dopamine receptors is to blame. Read about porn addiction in students and the symptoms mimick yours. Then consider that stress hormones affect the same pleasure receptor areas of the brain. Pain and pleasure pretty much gives the same response. Therefore it's logical that high stress over long periods would result in the same addiction mechanism as porn addiction in otherwise healthy guys. To recover takes many months of thinking normal boring thoughts to settle it all down again. Yes saw palmetto or fin causes the initial symtoms, but when guys lose dick function they shit themselves, read bad things and i think this causes issues the pleasure receptor or dopamine type chemical response that is factually necessary for libido and erections. My theory on it anyhow, but at the end of the day who gives a shit? People recover by doing as discussed, so get on and do it.

English
03-11-2016, 06:46 AM
Looking for help: Please note that i'm off for a couple of months now as i tend to have these breaks from forums for all sorts of reasons. I mainly just get bored and then look forward to coming back on after a while - call it cycling of SS!!
Just saying not to bother questioning me. Ultimately you have to devise your own plan based on what has worked for others, then adjusted for your own issues (everyone has them!!) But my advice to you is that above all your brain needs certainty and belief, so devise a plan based on all your readings, be sure it is both logical and not damaging, then fuck off and live life like there is nothing wrong with you while living like a healthy mf. It doesn't matter if you do something that is ever so slightly wrong, so don't worrry about any of it too much, just build a plan, fuck off and follow it and stop thinking about all this shit, that is the only way you will normalise. During my research phase, i noted that one common denominator of recovery stories tended to be that the guys took very long breaks from talking and reading about all this shit. It's an addiction you have to break, chief amoung them is thinking about all this shit!!! Good luck. Off for a couple of months.

English
03-11-2016, 10:10 AM
Diet? When I hear healthy from 90% of people I hear low fat and those saturated animal fats especially are - crucial- for getting better from this. You need a big 'ol supply of cholesterol for optimal hormonal production. How's your sleep/rest? You need as much rest as you can physically get outside of the working out, don't push yourself etc. Stop with daily pushups and sit ups etc and focus more on heavy compound stuff 3x per week. Short sessions. 5x5 style worked best for me but you mileage may vary.

The one thing i will add to this is that calisthenic movements have been demonstrated time and again to provoke higher returns of T. Add plymetrics to calisthenic type exercises and you can't beat that for raising T. (my own T was over 900 in last bloods) so IMO i would stick with press ups, but make them plymetric by making them jump press ups, and i would cycle your exercises too to keep shocking your body by waking up different muscle groups. So do press ups for 3 weeks allied with tricep dips to balance your front and back, and the next 3 weeks do pull ups over hand and underhand sets. Do leg sprints/jumps etc. every 2 or 3 days and as long as all these exercises are done in an explosive way you will raise your T. But as per all my other posts, your mind must be in the right place while you're doing all this stuff. Nothing wrong with 5x5, but calisthenic and plymetrics are better for raising T. Even better, do these exercises outside. You should try and do 3 sets of each exercise, and just even out the reps you can manage amongst the 3 sets.
If you really want to add interest to your pull ups, try and make them pullovers which is v hard. I keep trying to master them myself and have managed to do a couple but my wrists aren't quite strong enough!! I literally get to where i can almost do them, then i'm at the end of the cycle and have to move to another exercise.
IMO cycling exercises and thus muscle groups is v important for T response.

Freepressright
03-16-2016, 12:49 PM
Taking this topic back to the original theme, a couple months ago I was at the local health food store and grabbed some multivitamin samples out of the sample bin. I got home and took one. The next day, my erections were not full and I just couldn't get fully into the mood. I was also sluggish and had no stamina.

I took another vitamin and it became slightly worse the next day. That was all I had. For the next few days the sex drive was lagging. This probably went on for a little over a week. I was back at the health food store the other day and saw more of those multivitamin samples in the bin and was reading the label, and sure as shit, it contains fenugreek!

This stuff is my finasteride. I've never had anything wreck my manhood quite like that stuff.

I took it for a month a while back and had month's worth of cold genitals, no morning erections, little to no interest in sex, no pumps in the gym, a lack of concentration and brain fog, among other things. 5-AR inhibition is no joke. It's just amazing how now even one dose starts to bring the symptoms back quickly.

Grape Ape
03-16-2016, 08:31 PM
FPR,

I remember you raving about Testofen back on the PP bowrds. Especially about it increasing your appetite. Believe you had a log. What changed between then and now?

entropy
03-16-2016, 11:23 PM
5ar inhibition starts with euphoria. I can only assume it's the initial increase in testosterone.. Sometimes, your body can maintain some kinda status quo (for me it was actually about six years) before the bottom falls out. After that though... It's anyone's guess.

Freepressright
03-17-2016, 04:55 AM
FPR,

I remember you raving about Testofen back on the PP bowrds. Especially about it increasing your appetite. Believe you had a log. What changed between then and now?

i wish I knew the answer. It worked marvelously well at making me eat. I initially had some libido uptick the early times I took it. I thought the stuff was great. Probably about the third time of running it, it went the other way on me. And it got worse each time I took it and I finally put it together after, in 2014, it all but completely shut down any sexual function.

My guess is that 5-AR inhibition takes time to manifest. Testofen raises your free T, but eventually does so at the expense of your DHT. Each time I ran it, it became less positive for my libido. And now it takes very little of it to start me on the course to feeling like a turd.

Cdsnuts
03-17-2016, 08:52 AM
i wish I knew the answer. It worked marvelously well at making me eat. I initially had some libido uptick the early times I took it. I thought the stuff was great. Probably about the third time of running it, it went the other way on me. And it got worse each time I took it and I finally put it together after, in 2014, it all but completely shut down any sexual function.

My guess is that 5-AR inhibition takes time to manifest. Testofen raises your free T, but eventually does so at the expense of your DHT. Each time I ran it, it became less positive for my libido. And now it takes very little of it to start me on the course to feeling like a turd.

I used to love phyto test as well.....I can't tolerate it now. I still have a couple of original bottles around here somewhere.

Pageidol
03-20-2016, 11:38 AM
Freepressright glad you made a full recovery. Ive given this 12 months to see if it would right on its own but it hasnt.

So im going to undertake your full protocol. May i ask how long you were in that state before you began taking the recovery herbs?

Also from once you began the protocol, how long before you normalised? Many more months?

Ive just began ordering all the stuff now and will be undergoing it all 200%

Do you think my chances are recovery are slimmer because ive left it so long?

Awesome youve recovered mate, put a smile on my face

Cheers

Cdsnuts
03-20-2016, 01:54 PM
Freepressright glad you made a full recovery. Ive given this 12 months to see if it would right on its own but it hasnt.

So im going to undertake your full protocol. May i ask how long you were in that state before you began taking the recovery herbs?

Also from once you began the protocol, how long before you normalised? Many more months?

Ive just began ordering all the stuff now and will be undergoing it all 200%

Do you think my chances are recovery are slimmer because ive left it so long?

Awesome youve recovered mate, put a smile on my face

Cheers

It's never too late.

entropy
03-20-2016, 08:42 PM
It's never too late.

Hitting it quicker definitely helps though imo. Since I'd taken the stuff for seven years, I'd heard about pfs before but shockingly.. I didn't expect it to happen to me. I started your routine within six weeks of crashing and i actually saw results within a couple of weeks. My sleep came back first, it was truly and utterly blissful... Then I woke up with night wood a couple times, over time my weight came back up after the wasting (about twelve pounds). After that it was kinda a roller coaster of improving, the dipping, then improving back up to slightly above where I was before. I attempted to have sex a couple times after crashing and it was a fucking failure but eleven months after I crashed I could perform pretty well...

It's been eighteen months or so now and I'm in a relationship with the most amazing women I've ever met, in the best shape of my life, working on my future, changed my profession...

And that's just me. English' story is about ten times more fantastic than mine and it was cds (and Chi's) story that inspired us.

Be the third generation of winners man. You beat this, you're a fucking warrior buddy.

Edit - I talk to much.

Pageidol
03-21-2016, 02:58 AM
Haha glad youve at a good head space man... Your british right?

The biggest thing for me at the moment is to regain morning wood. Theres just nothing going on.

What actually is it, is it a case of resensitizing dht recepters? This is where the sorghum comes into it? That why black men have big cocks? 👌

Haha cheers

Pageidol
03-21-2016, 05:01 AM
This is quite interesting, this is how jeff recovered, check out jeffs post

Propecia Side Effects Sexual Loss Libido Persistent Permanent Help Forum Uk - Propecia Side Effects UK Forum Help Sexual Physical Mental Persistent Mens Hair Loss Pill Medication (http://www.propeciasideeffects.co.uk/blog/propecia-side-effects-help-in-uk-forum-persistent-permanent-loss-of-libido-sex-drive-erectile-dysfunction-hair-loss-drug-medication-finasteride-need-help-advice-support-here-in-the-uk)

Freepressright
03-21-2016, 08:29 AM
This is quite interesting, this is how jeff recovered, check out jeffs post

Propecia Side Effects Sexual Loss Libido Persistent Permanent Help Forum Uk - Propecia Side Effects UK Forum Help Sexual Physical Mental Persistent Mens Hair Loss Pill Medication (http://www.propeciasideeffects.co.uk/blog/propecia-side-effects-help-in-uk-forum-persistent-permanent-loss-of-libido-sex-drive-erectile-dysfunction-hair-loss-drug-medication-finasteride-need-help-advice-support-here-in-the-uk)

He recommends Evening Primrose Oil as part of his protocol, but everything I read says it's a potent 5AR inhibitor.

entropy
03-21-2016, 09:14 AM
Haha glad youve at a good head space man... Your british right?

The biggest thing for me at the moment is to regain morning wood. Theres just nothing going on.

What actually is it, is it a case of resensitizing dht recepters? This is where the sorghum comes into it? That why black men have big cocks? 👌

Haha cheers

Well I haven't a clue about the dht receptors although I - do- believe black guys have a slightly higher density of androgen receptors pretty much everywhere. Nothing a little hard work can't fix though.
I've never understood why so much importance is placed on morning wood. I've read quite a lot about "morning wood" being dependant on dopamine and "night wood" being related to your test. Personally I think morning wood is just night wood and if you don't wake up directly from rem sleep, you won't be erect.

Pageidol
03-21-2016, 09:52 AM
Did you guys get shrunken nuts from this shit?

My scrotum has beginning itching alot lately which im trying to view as a good sign, havent had itchy nuts for a long time.

Pageidol
03-21-2016, 11:18 AM
Ok after doing loads of reading from different sources, ive ordered the following

Royal jelly, pine pollen tincture, tongkat ali, shilajit, arginine, l-tyrosine, choline bitartate, ashwagandha, creatine and sorghum!

Am i on the right track here? I was gonna see how i get on over the next 3-6months then give cd nuts protocol a go!

Cheers

Freepressright
03-21-2016, 05:04 PM
Ok after doing loads of reading from different sources, ive ordered the following

Royal jelly, pine pollen tincture, tongkat ali, shilajit, arginine, l-tyrosine, choline bitartate, ashwagandha, creatine and sorghum!

Am i on the right track here? I was gonna see how i get on over the next 3-6months then give cd nuts protocol a go!

Cheers

You are on the right track, sir

Pageidol
03-22-2016, 02:58 AM
Nice one, dude your recovery is so inspiring to me because it was the fenugreek that ultimately fucked me. Before i crack on, how long for you from beginning the recovery regime did you eventually recover?

How was it, was it like a gradual return of things...like a gradual return of morning wood, then the rest sort of followed?

Cheers

Freepressright
03-22-2016, 09:05 AM
Nice one, dude your recovery is so inspiring to me because it was the fenugreek that ultimately fucked me. Before i crack on, how long for you from beginning the recovery regime did you eventually recover?

How was it, was it like a gradual return of things...like a gradual return of morning wood, then the rest sort of followed?

Cheers

Obviously everyone is different but I seem to recall the total recovery time happening gradually and appreciably over a period of 8 months to reach full recovery. However, the herbs start to bring back function and desire gradually over time and you get sporadic milestones that make you happy and give you psychological encouragement to continue. Mindset is very important.

You'll get nights early along the way where you get night woodies from hell, but then you won't some other nights. Morning woods will make their appearances again along the way too. Just be patient and don't let your anxiety and stress overtake you.

Needinghelp
03-22-2016, 02:31 PM
Hi guys i took accutane 10mg for 2 weeks 9 months ago when i was 18. I stopped because it gave me erectile dysfunction. But im 19 now and there is still no improvement down there it only gets worse. Do you guys have any tips to overcome this? It makes me really depressed as a 19 year old.

Grape Ape
03-22-2016, 04:49 PM
See a doctor.

Needinghelp
03-22-2016, 05:04 PM
@grapeape i already been to the urologist but they only told me there are more people who have this problem with accutane and they can't do much about it. And because accutane is also a 5 ar inhibitor i thought you guys could give me some advice on how to recover.

Freepressright
03-22-2016, 05:35 PM
@grapeape i already been to the urologist but they only told me there are more people who have this problem with accutane and they can't do much about it. And because accutane is also a 5 ar inhibitor i thought you guys could give me some advice on how to recover.

I agree with your doctors. They are an absolute dead end when it comes to treating problems from 5-AR inhibition. You might as well consult with the homeless dude on the corner.

Personally, I think any doctor who would prescribe this known genotoxin (former chemotherapy drug) needs a fist to the skull because this poison can literally ruin a man.

You need to go back and read the last few pages of this thread. Follow the same protocols that you see listed herein. It's your best chance at recovery.

Pageidol
03-23-2016, 12:42 AM
Now then now then. These supplements, is it do i just sort of take em spaced out through the day or smash em all at once. I feel like a walking pharmacy haha. There any chance of these reacting with one another or will it be ok just to sort off take them together, ie tongkat alongside ahrawandha?

I must be taking 10 different things as i wake up.

Cheers

Freepressright
03-23-2016, 04:19 AM
Now then now then. These supplements, is it do i just sort of take em spaced out through the day or smash em all at once. I feel like a walking pharmacy haha. There any chance of these reacting with one another or will it be ok just to sort off take them together, ie tongkat alongside ahrawandha?

I must be taking 10 different things as i wake up.

Cheers

I have a few things to share. Let me start with your dilemma.

I do not know of any of those reacting with one another. Ashwagandha, for example, is going to help regulate your cortisol levels, decrease your stress response, reset your adrenal glands and will have testosterone benefits. This is probably one of the most important herbs you're taking.

Now, with all these herbs, I'd recommend figuring out which ones to take daily and which ones to cycle. The ashwagandha is one of the ones, like pine pollen, that you take daily, especially in your condition. Some of the others you can cycle, and there are a few ways of doing it.

Cdsnuts does a multi-herb rotation, taking one of them one day and moving onto the next. But you can also partition your cycles to do like M, W, F - Tongkat Ali & Cistanche days and Tues and Thurs take herbs B and C, or D.

Or you could do your Tongkat 5 days on and 2 days off the first week to get your blood levels up, and then relinquish it to a Monday-Wednesday-Friday rotation. You'll just have to figure that out.

The idea is to keep surprising the body so you don't adapt and build a tolerance.

I recommend you read this article for more ideas on cycling:

How to Cycle Herbal Testosterone Boosters (http://www.anabolicmen.com/cycling-herbs/)

Now, on to the next subject: Pine pollen powder.

I have always been a tincture user and have been happy. Cdsnuts and I talked through PM about the powder, which I've never tried. I have ordered two tinctures, but am waiting for them to arrive. Several months ago, a co-worker ordered a bag of the pollen but stopped taking it because she just doesn't like the taste.

Yesterday I asked if she still had it and if I could buy her bag. She ended up going and getting it on her lunch break and just gave it to me. I took 1 teaspoon and swished it around under my tongue and inside my mouth for about a minute (same principle as the tincture, and should work to some degree for androgen absorption since it's broken cell wall pine pollen from Super Man), then swallowed.

I repeated this a few hours later, and then did a whole tablespoon before bed.

I kid you not, I woke up a few times during the night, and every damn time I woke up, I had one of the best erections I've ever felt. I also awoke fully erect this morning, more so than usual.

I know the Super Man Herbs guy has a morning wood guarantee if you take enough of the powder. For me, it proved to be effective. But my tincture will be here Friday so I'm looking forward to all the nutritional benefits of the powder, combined with the concentrated androgens in the tincture.

I'll keep everyone posted.

Pageidol
03-23-2016, 10:26 AM
I have a few things to share. Let me start with your dilemma.

I do not know of any of those reacting with one another. Ashwagandha, for example, is going to help regulate your cortisol levels, decrease your stress response, reset your adrenal glands and will have testosterone benefits. This is probably one of the most important herbs you're taking.

Now, with all these herbs, I'd recommend figuring out which ones to take daily and which ones to cycle. The ashwagandha is one of the ones, like pine pollen, that you take daily, especially in your condition. Some of the others you can cycle, and there are a few ways of doing it.

Cdsnuts does a multi-herb rotation, taking one of them one day and moving onto the next. But you can also partition your cycles to do like M, W, F - Tongkat Ali & Cistanche days and Tues and Thurs take herbs B and C, or D.

Or you could do your Tongkat 5 days on and 2 days off the first week to get your blood levels up, and then relinquish it to a Monday-Wednesday-Friday rotation. You'll just have to figure that out.

The idea is to keep surprising the body so you don't adapt and build a tolerance.

I recommend you read this article for more ideas on cycling:

How to Cycle Herbal Testosterone Boosters (http://www.anabolicmen.com/cycling-herbs/)

Now, on to the next subject: Pine pollen powder.

I have always been a tincture user and have been happy. Cdsnuts and I talked through PM about the powder, which I've never tried. I have ordered two tinctures, but am waiting for them to arrive. Several months ago, a co-worker ordered a bag of the pollen but stopped taking it because she just doesn't like the taste.

Yesterday I asked if she still had it and if I could buy her bag. She ended up going and getting it on her lunch break and just gave it to me. I took 1 teaspoon and swished it around under my tongue and inside my mouth for about a minute (same principle as the tincture, and should work to some degree for androgen absorption since it's broken cell wall pine pollen from Super Man), then swallowed.

I repeated this a few hours later, and then did a whole tablespoon before bed.

I kid you not, I woke up a few times during the night, and every damn time I woke up, I had one of the best erections I've ever felt. I also awoke fully erect this morning, more so than usual.

I know the Super Man Herbs guy has a morning wood guarantee if you take enough of the powder. For me, it proved to be effective. But my tincture will be here Friday so I'm looking forward to all the nutritional benefits of the powder, combined with the concentrated androgens in the tincture.

I'll keep everyone posted.

Yeah i rekon itll be abit of trial and error within start up. Ive got pine pollen on order right now from the states, the tincture that is. Looking forward to it. Already began with the tongkat, creatine, ashwagandha. Cheers for all the great advice and regards to cd nuts!

So you were proper shut down then like me, shrunken balls, no libido, no wood...the lot?

So chuffed your right now mate!

James

Freepressright
03-23-2016, 12:10 PM
Yeah i rekon itll be abit of trial and error within start up. Ive got pine pollen on order right now from the states, the tincture that is. Looking forward to it. Already began with the tongkat, creatine, ashwagandha. Cheers for all the great advice and regards to cd nuts!

So you were proper shut down then like me, shrunken balls, no libido, no wood...the lot?

So chuffed your right now mate!

James

Strange thing is that no matter what I've taken, hormones or otherwise, I've never really noticed a lot of testicular atrophy. It has always been minimal at worst, but the libido was tanked and random wood was non-existent. Genitals were literally cold to the touch. It was like the connection between my brain and my junk was broken. That's probably the best way of describing it.

I used to get sick pumps with no supplementation when lifting. During the worst period of shutdown, I got no pumps at all. Almost drove me to stop lifting.

Cdsnuts
03-24-2016, 09:03 PM
I have a few things to share. Let me start with your dilemma.

I do not know of any of those reacting with one another. Ashwagandha, for example, is going to help regulate your cortisol levels, decrease your stress response, reset your adrenal glands and will have testosterone benefits. This is probably one of the most important herbs you're taking.

Now, with all these herbs, I'd recommend figuring out which ones to take daily and which ones to cycle. The ashwagandha is one of the ones, like pine pollen, that you take daily, especially in your condition. Some of the others you can cycle, and there are a few ways of doing it.

Cdsnuts does a multi-herb rotation, taking one of them one day and moving onto the next. But you can also partition your cycles to do like M, W, F - Tongkat Ali & Cistanche days and Tues and Thurs take herbs B and C, or D.

Or you could do your Tongkat 5 days on and 2 days off the first week to get your blood levels up, and then relinquish it to a Monday-Wednesday-Friday rotation. You'll just have to figure that out.

The idea is to keep surprising the body so you don't adapt and build a tolerance.

I recommend you read this article for more ideas on cycling:

How to Cycle Herbal Testosterone Boosters (http://www.anabolicmen.com/cycling-herbs/)

Now, on to the next subject: Pine pollen powder.

I have always been a tincture user and have been happy. Cdsnuts and I talked through PM about the powder, which I've never tried. I have ordered two tinctures, but am waiting for them to arrive. Several months ago, a co-worker ordered a bag of the pollen but stopped taking it because she just doesn't like the taste.

Yesterday I asked if she still had it and if I could buy her bag. She ended up going and getting it on her lunch break and just gave it to me. I took 1 teaspoon and swished it around under my tongue and inside my mouth for about a minute (same principle as the tincture, and should work to some degree for androgen absorption since it's broken cell wall pine pollen from Super Man), then swallowed.

I repeated this a few hours later, and then did a whole tablespoon before bed.

I kid you not, I woke up a few times during the night, and every damn time I woke up, I had one of the best erections I've ever felt. I also awoke fully erect this morning, more so than usual.

I know the Super Man Herbs guy has a morning wood guarantee if you take enough of the powder. For me, it proved to be effective. But my tincture will be here Friday so I'm looking forward to all the nutritional benefits of the powder, combined with the concentrated androgens in the tincture.

I'll keep everyone posted.

There is a reason pine pollen powder is one of my favorites and one I recommend so much. This will happen without fail EVERYTIME you take it. I prefer it to the tincture because not only does it work like magic, but you're getting all of the powerhouse nutrition the pollen has to offer. Win win.

Cdsnuts
03-24-2016, 09:05 PM
Now then now then. These supplements, is it do i just sort of take em spaced out through the day or smash em all at once. I feel like a walking pharmacy haha. There any chance of these reacting with one another or will it be ok just to sort off take them together, ie tongkat alongside ahrawandha?

I must be taking 10 different things as i wake up.

Cheers

CD's Natural Testosterone boosting regimen (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/supplements/2912-cds-natural-testosterone-boosting-regimen.html)

Freepressright
03-24-2016, 09:42 PM
There is a reason pine pollen powder is one of my favorites and one I recommend so much. This will happen without fail EVERYTIME you take it. I prefer it to the tincture because not only does it work like magic, but you're getting all of the powerhouse nutrition the pollen has to offer. Win win.

My tincture came in late Wednesday morning. I'm now doing both the powder AND the tincture. I am going to order more powder this weekend.

I can't wait to see what this brings. I've had MAJOR morning wood the last two mornings.

Pageidol
03-25-2016, 01:44 AM
My tincture has arrived! Elvis is in the building!

Im amazed they use fenugreek in all the major so called test boosters! Your the only other guy ive come across to get into trouble off fenugreek.

Back to the saw palmetto use, id say ive read in all around 50 stories of mens negative experiences on it across different websites and forums. Id say 95% of the time, the man gets issues but then comes off it and recovers within 6 months. This seems to be the recurring theme. However then theres this 5% that seem to be royally fucked and i cant understand why.

I took sp for 21 days which did harm me and began taking the fenugreek 4 months later as a test booster which really fucked me up.

I think i didnt recover because i went mad. I started throwing down clomid and all sorts in a mad panic. Even last summer i took arimidex for a week and had full on estrogen rebound afterwards. I think the spike in e2 has been more detrimental in shutting down my hpta.

Fresspressright in all mate from once you began fenugreek use to full recovery, how long was it?
I bet you found yourself in some dark moods. This has been the most pscho damaging thing ive ever experienced.

Are you still on your recovery protocol, ie if you came off your symptons would once again emerge? I say that because im beginning to see some good signs now on these supps but id like to think that once everything is back up and running i can stop the regime and things carry on functioning as per normal.

Sweet

Freepressright
03-25-2016, 09:01 AM
My tincture has arrived! Elvis is in the building!

Im amazed they use fenugreek in all the major so called test boosters! Your the only other guy ive come across to get into trouble off fenugreek.

Back to the saw palmetto use, id say ive read in all around 50 stories of mens negative experiences on it across different websites and forums. Id say 95% of the time, the man gets issues but then comes off it and recovers within 6 months. This seems to be the recurring theme. However then theres this 5% that seem to be royally fucked and i cant understand why.

I took sp for 21 days which did harm me and began taking the fenugreek 4 months later as a test booster which really fucked me up.

I think i didnt recover because i went mad. I started throwing down clomid and all sorts in a mad panic. Even last summer i took arimidex for a week and had full on estrogen rebound afterwards. I think the spike in e2 has been more detrimental in shutting down my hpta.

Fresspressright in all mate from once you began fenugreek use to full recovery, how long was it?
I bet you found yourself in some dark moods. This has been the most pscho damaging thing ive ever experienced.

Are you still on your recovery protocol, ie if you came off your symptons would once again emerge? I say that because im beginning to see some good signs now on these supps but id like to think that once everything is back up and running i can stop the regime and things carry on functioning as per normal.

Sweet

I warn people constantly that if you don't know how your body's going to react to it, avoid it. As I've said before, the consequences were gradual and got worse each time I used it. But the last time was horrible. Guessing that a 100% full recovery was 8 months, but like I said, there were milestones along the way that were encouraging.

I still run my recovery protocol because I like how I feel on it. Plus I had run R-Andro RX and figured I could use a little rebound. I haven't stopped it for long periods of time to see if there's regression. I've had only short term breaks.

Pageidol
03-31-2016, 10:24 AM
Ok guys im a week in and already seeing some improvement, nocturnals have appeared ☝️, just got the pine pollen tincture too. How many servings is it best having per day, off the tincture that is, havent been able to find any literature on this.

Also im looking at undertaking a dht based cycle but obvs primordial has been shut so whats the next best thing?

Ive never done a cycle before, im a complete amatuer. I will have to take a pct afterwards, is nolvadex best for this?

Regards

Grape Ape
03-31-2016, 11:31 AM
All the info you need is on this forum. Use the search function. We can't continue to spoon feed what has been put out there a million times.

Epiandro TD, SUP3R-EPI, and R-Andro are your best bet for DHT products.

Cdsnuts
03-31-2016, 02:05 PM
Ok guys im a week in and already seeing some improvement, nocturnals have appeared ☝️, just got the pine pollen tincture too. How many servings is it best having per day, off the tincture that is, havent been able to find any literature on this.

Also im looking at undertaking a dht based cycle but obvs primordial has been shut so whats the next best thing?

Ive never done a cycle before, im a complete amatuer. I will have to take a pct afterwards, is nolvadex best for this?

Regards

Rest assured, if you're already seeing results in a week and a half, you're not that damaged and recovery will come sooner than later.

English
04-01-2016, 06:24 AM
Ok guys im a week in and already seeing some improvement, nocturnals have appeared ☝️, just got the pine pollen tincture too. How many servings is it best having per day, off the tincture that is, havent been able to find any literature on this.

Also im looking at undertaking a dht based cycle but obvs primordial has been shut so whats the next best thing?

Ive never done a cycle before, im a complete amatuer. I will have to take a pct afterwards, is nolvadex best for this?

Regards

You should slow the fuck down IMO. You've just took to healthy living and herb cycling and seen huge gains in 10 days right? If that's the case why are you wanting to start cycling PH? This is crazy. Stick with herb cylcing and healthy living for a few months, see where you're at. PHs are there to either assist fully healthy guys feel even better and to bulk up, or to give pfs type people a jolt -if they need it - right now you don't need it and it will only serve to confuse the strong evidence of recovery which you are getting really quickly right now from natty means. Use logic and common sense and time. People who throw every thing at it that they've suddenly found out about end up disappointed and confused. One step at a time.

Pageidol
04-02-2016, 02:51 AM
Cheers for reassurance guys and advice. Its funny really because for months ive felt completely nonchalent and numb, and over the past cpl of weeks im feeling all this emotion coming over me and its like the anxiety returning over it all which is the way i used to be. That along with nocturnals.

Also, something id long forgotten about...oily skin! My skin is getting oily again and im breaking out a little. Haha i can honestly say id give my right arm to be covered in acne!

I honestly think id have recovered by now. I was talking to my specialist and i was describing everytime i took either clomid, arimidex, i experienced e2 rebounds, most notably water retention, and this took weeks to subside.

Its a combination i think with me in regards to e2 hpta suppression on top, but im no doctor!

Thanks

Eden
04-03-2016, 11:17 PM
@grapeape i already been to the urologist but they only told me there are more people who have this problem with accutane and they can't do much about it. And because accutane is also a 5 ar inhibitor i thought you guys could give me some advice on how to recover.


What were you taking accutane for? I'm assuming not recalcitrant nodular acne?

English
04-04-2016, 05:13 AM
Cheers for reassurance guys and advice. Its funny really because for months ive felt completely nonchalent and numb, and over the past cpl of weeks im feeling all this emotion coming over me and its like the anxiety returning over it all which is the way i used to be. That along with nocturnals.

Also, something id long forgotten about...oily skin! My skin is getting oily again and im breaking out a little. Haha i can honestly say id give my right arm to be covered in acne!

I honestly think id have recovered by now. I was talking to my specialist and i was describing everytime i took either clomid, arimidex, i experienced e2 rebounds, most notably water retention, and this took weeks to subside.

Its a combination i think with me in regards to e2 hpta suppression on top, but im no doctor!

Thanks

The most important thing of all with regards recovering IMO, is to stop thinking and obsessing over why it happened, what might be to blame yadayada.... you've got to transition to normal thoughts and get on with normal life, just whilst living healthy and carrying out the required exercise etc.

Lookingforhelp
04-15-2016, 05:28 AM
Personally i think you sound a good guy and you got a hard time that you didn't deserve, it's a very hard place you are coming from and you got some stick mainly because so many others are total pricks. I think there's nothing wrong with not retaining everything after reading a thousand posts from someone, and i think it is understable to want to speak with the person themselves after reading so much. Fact is you don't need to though, and you should also look at others who have recovered to spot the common denominators.

Thanks English. Means a lot. I have a very much fuck you attitude to this illness. I will fucking beat i!. Been away for a while. Thought I'd update. Looks like after a few months of eating gluten free my sleep has recovered. I know gluten can fuck you up in many ways. This just proves one of them!

I remember at one stage all I wished for was to be able to sleep, to drift off naturally, to feel naturally tired. To sleep and feel refreshed to some extent. The other sides didn't matter, I just wanted to sleep! So I have to be so incredibly grateful for that. I sleep deeply now and don't wake up to a pin drop like before. Hands and feet have stopped being so cold too which is a massive plus.

I still wake up tired and exhausted, I still have no spontaneous erections. I do however get nocturnal and morning wood every night usually. It's not great, like full hard, but it's there and that's all that matters right now for me.

Still eating very healthy, trying to keep active and positive. I enjoy stuff more. Brain fog is still around, less of a fog, more of a mental slowness now? Hard to put down.

Still very lean, muscular to some extent, lots of new body hair all the time which is surely a good sign. Seem to sweat less than before, sometimes smells very masculine, sometimes no smell.

With the he fatigue I have I also have this leg ache, it's not really painful cramps. It's just an uncomfortable feeling. Maybe restless legs still.

I just had a load of tests done a month ago to see a new baseline of where I'm at after stopping gluten. For all of you reading this For the first time I'm celiac. I'm meeting my endo next week To find out. My T was low a few months ago.

Anyways thanks for all your support.

This is my year! I can fucking feel it.

Cdsnuts
04-17-2016, 05:51 PM
Thanks English. Means a lot. I have a very much fuck you attitude to this illness. I will fucking beat i!. Been away for a while. Thought I'd update. Looks like after a few months of eating gluten free my sleep has recovered. I know gluten can fuck you up in many ways. This just proves one of them!

I remember at one stage all I wished for was to be able to sleep, to drift off naturally, to feel naturally tired. To sleep and feel refreshed to some extent. The other sides didn't matter, I just wanted to sleep! So I have to be so incredibly grateful for that. I sleep deeply now and don't wake up to a pin drop like before. Hands and feet have stopped being so cold too which is a massive plus.

I still wake up tired and exhausted, I still have no spontaneous erections. I do however get nocturnal and morning wood every night usually. It's not great, like full hard, but it's there and that's all that matters right now for me.

Still eating very healthy, trying to keep active and positive. I enjoy stuff more. Brain fog is still around, less of a fog, more of a mental slowness now? Hard to put down.

Still very lean, muscular to some extent, lots of new body hair all the time which is surely a good sign. Seem to sweat less than before, sometimes smells very masculine, sometimes no smell.

With the he fatigue I have I also have this leg ache, it's not really painful cramps. It's just an uncomfortable feeling. Maybe restless legs still.

I just had a load of tests done a month ago to see a new baseline of where I'm at after stopping gluten. For all of you reading this For the first time I'm celiac. I'm meeting my endo next week To find out. My T was low a few months ago.

Anyways thanks for all your support.

This is my year! I can fucking feel it.

You should think positively on the fact that you're experiencing nocturnal and morning wood. You're not as damaged as some. You're recovery window will be shorter than those that who aren't experiencing them.

5 alpha victim
04-23-2016, 02:51 PM
My tincture has arrived! Elvis is in the building

Im amazed they use fenugreek in all the major so called test boosters! Your the only other guy ive come across to get into trouble off fenugreek.

Back to the saw palmetto use, id say ive read in all around 50 stories of mens negative experiences on it across different websites and forums. Id say 95% of the time, the man gets issues but then comes off it and recovers within 6 months. This seems to be the recurring theme. However then theres this 5% that seem to be royally fucked and i cant understand why.

I took sp for 21 days which did harm me and began taking the fenugreek 4 months later as a test booster which really fucked me up.

I think i didnt recover because i went mad. I started throwing down clomid and all sorts in a mad panic. Even last summer i took arimidex for a week and had full on estrogen rebound afterwards. I think the spike in e2 has been more detrimental in shutting down my hpta.

Fresspressright in all mate from once you began fenugreek use to full recovery, how long was it?
I bet you found yourself in some dark moods. This has been the most pscho damaging thing ive ever experienced.

Are you still on your recovery protocol, ie if you came off your symptons would once again emerge? I say that because im beginning to see some good signs now on these supps but id like to think that once everything is back up and running i can stop the regime and things carry on functioning as per normal.

Sweet


Hey man , Your experiences with natural 5AR inhibitors are very similar to mine.

It is BS that fenugreek is used for boosting natty T. Not that it can't boost natty T but it's misleading as far as the mechanism of action behind why and how it's boosting T that's BS. 5AR inhibitors usually will raise your T at first but while risking completely messing up your endocrine system for the long run.

I completely agree with your conclusions with everything you said about Saw P. I'm one of the guys that fall in the 5 percent category of having been royally messed up by taking Saw P.

How you got messed up from taking Saw P for 21 days and later even more messed up from your four months of fenugreek usage almost mirrors my mistakes as well. Actually during my first Saw P mishap I actually took it for 21 days exactly and was "PFS'd". Than about three years later after still being messed up and after having a urologist tell me that all my symptoms where in result of having an enlarged prostate I did another two week run of Saw P. to "shrink my prostate". Stupid I know ... After my second run of Saw P came the insomnia and severe stomach issues. After coming off the Saw P the second time I stayed up for two weeks straight .. Not one min of sleep for two weeks. My insomnia was so bad that hard core sleep meds would not put me out. I actually thought I was going to die blah blah blah ...

Following the "PFS" protocol for the last two years has cured 80 percent of my insomnia . Eating a close to strict paleo diet for the last two years has helped my digestive issues a lot as well. Not sure if you are having issues with digestion but the magnesium supp is great for this. I constantly find that the more of this protocol I follow the better quality of life I see returning.

As for us worrying about deciding if to stop taking everything once fully recovered, that's the least of our concerns. The way I look at it why not continue to take vitamins and increase our T to natural health levels even after being completely recovered. But that's a bridge to cross once we their.

Lookingforhelp
04-26-2016, 02:26 PM
Hey man , Your experiences with natural 5AR inhibitors are very similar to mine.

It is BS that fenugreek is used for boosting natty T. Not that it can't boost natty T but it's misleading as far as the mechanism of action behind why and how it's boosting T that's BS. 5AR inhibitors usually will raise your T at first but while risking completely messing up your endocrine system for the long run.

I completely agree with your conclusions with everything you said about Saw P. I'm one of the guys that fall in the 5 percent category of having been royally messed up by taking Saw P.

How you got messed up from taking Saw P for 21 days and later even more messed up from your four months of fenugreek usage almost mirrors my mistakes as well. Actually during my first Saw P mishap I actually took it for 21 days exactly and was "PFS'd". Than about three years later after still being messed up and after having a urologist tell me that all my symptoms where in result of having an enlarged prostate I did another two week run of Saw P. to "shrink my prostate". Stupid I know ... After my second run of Saw P came the insomnia and severe stomach issues. After coming off the Saw P the second time I stayed up for two weeks straight .. Not one min of sleep for two weeks. My insomnia was so bad that hard core sleep meds would not put me out. I actually thought I was going to die blah blah blah ...

Following the "PFS" protocol for the last two years has cured 80 percent of my insomnia . Eating a close to strict paleo diet for the last two years has helped my digestive issues a lot as well. Not sure if you are having issues with digestion but the magnesium supp is great for this. I constantly find that the more of this protocol I follow the better quality of life I see returning.

As for us worrying about deciding if to stop taking everything once fully recovered, that's the least of our concerns. The way I look at it why not continue to take vitamins and increase our T to natural health levels even after being completely recovered. But that's a bridge to cross once we their.

I had a lot of digestive issues. I still believe it triggered my celiacs disease. I eat gluten free with lots of animal fats. Nothing processed. All clean! I think my insomnia was down to my chronic gut inflammation all the time. My sleep is great now, in fact I feel like I could sleep all day. Which is the problem! Even when I beat this, I'll still carry on with this way of life. I've learnt too much and I would be a fool to ever consider going back to my old ways.

Anyway, some news.

I saw my endocrinologist. Initially when this all happened I had Lowish dht. My DHt is near the top of the range now. I don't suffer with any other sides other than constant fatigue and ed. I get morning and nocturnals most nights, not as hard as they should be though. No spontaneous. Libido is sort of there k it's crushed by the little happening down there.

I've found out that my test and free test is low. Also my e2 is 6. Optimal for men between 20-30. He wants me to start testosterone gel next week. I'm a little concerned about starting hormones and shutting my own hormones down. I know there is lots of stuff on the web written about hormone replacement but I feel like for us it's all a different story. We aren't like every one else.

Will being on the gel shut my body down? Is it a backwards step? Or will it nudge me in the right direction?. I know some including cd have cycled dht based stuff, but will this have The same effect?

5 alpha victim
05-04-2016, 11:56 PM
Lookingforhelp, How low is your total testosterone and free T?

I would deff try the rotating at least seven different "natty T boosters" before you try any type of TRT including the gel. Of course just like they say around here all the time your diet and training needs to be onpoint as well while doing the herb rotation. I'm not cured but I know enough about what I'm doing now through experience and trial and error to know that TRT is just not the way to go with us.

You can use the gel in which case unless you swim in it (which you most likely won't be able to do with any doctor prescribed dose) you probable won't see higher blood testosterone levels than you will get on rotating natty T boosters, eating healthy and working out. If you get your doctor to give you injections (which you probably won't be able to do) than yea you can jack your T up to the top of the range which will probable make your symptoms worse. With us doing anything that's not a small nudge usually makes us worse. So TRT is just an all around bad idea in my opnion for people that have been "PFS'd". If I was you the only way I would try the gel is if after a year of following this protocol your T is stil in the complete shitter. The last time I checked mine was in the mid 500's which is not that bad for a 31 year old and considering the gel could not get me any higher even at max prescription dosage.

I'd much rather produce the same levels naturally than what the gel got me at and I I'm sure you would as well . As far as the DHT goes, I don't waste my time rubbing labs on it simply because it can't accurately be measured in my opnion. I see improvements in my symptoms on DHT based pro hormones as well.

Lookingforhelp
05-06-2016, 02:56 PM
Lookingforhelp, How low is your total testosterone and free T?

I would deff try the rotating at least seven different "natty T boosters" before you try any type of TRT including the gel. Of course just like they say around here all the time your diet and training needs to be onpoint as well while doing the herb rotation. I'm not cured but I know enough about what I'm doing now through experience and trial and error to know that TRT is just not the way to go with us.

You can use the gel in which case unless you swim in it (which you most likely won't be able to do with any doctor prescribed dose) you probable won't see higher blood testosterone levels than you will get on rotating natty T boosters, eating healthy and working out. If you get your doctor to give you injections (which you probably won't be able to do) than yea you can jack your T up to the top of the range which will probable make your symptoms worse. With us doing anything that's not a small nudge usually makes us worse. So TRT is just an all around bad idea in my opnion for people that have been "PFS'd". If I was you the only way I would try the gel is if after a year of following this protocol your T is stil in the complete shitter. The last time I checked mine was in the mid 500's which is not that bad for a 31 year old and considering the gel could not get me any higher even at max prescription dosage.



I'd much rather produce the same levels naturally than what the gel got me at and I I'm sure you would as well . As far as the DHT goes, I don't waste my time rubbing labs on it simply because it can't accurately be measured in my opnion. I see improvements in my symptoms on DHT based pro hormones as well.


Hi 5alpha,

Thanks for your reply. My Testosterone has been okay up until the last few months where it has tanked. I've been suffering with mild hyperprolactin which seems to be fluctuating. It's lower since I started gluten free. I am also celiacs.
My free t has been low for some time now. DHT was low but has now come back online. I've had ,many tests, all the 3 adiol g etc. Mine was a high level which was promising. I'm still very hairy, growing more body hair all the time, still receding slightly.

My issues now from what I believe is low free t and low e2. My joints and hips are cracking and popping like crazy and feel generally lethargic. I also have this ache and pains in my calves a lot. I think I'm getting better in many aspects as now my sleep is amazing. I feel like I could sleep all day, which isn't great, but it beats insomnia! My cold hands and feet are gone, this got better since starting gluten free diet. I don't really have brain fog now I've been gluten free. Just more slow thoughts but I think this is from low t e2.
Since having low e2 my lean muscle is softer. I'm already lean and 6ft3. Never been fat.

I'm getting nocturnal and morning wood although it's not rock solid but I'd say 80%.

I'm adamant I can get out of this, I don't think I'm in the shithouse as much as some! I'm not comfortable win trt really but I'm at the stage now where I need to try and get back to work and normal life. I've read many people saying it makes them worse. The whole herb thing is something I want to try. I've read reports of pine pollen being an alpha reductase inhibitor though. Just scares the shit out of me since it's possibly saw palmetto that fucked me.

By the way did you take propecia or saw palmetto?

5 alpha victim
05-08-2016, 10:41 PM
Hi 5alpha,

Thanks for your reply. My Testosterone has been okay up until the last few months where it has tanked. I've been suffering with mild hyperprolactin which seems to be fluctuating. It's lower since I started gluten free. I am also celiacs.
My free t has been low for some time now. DHT was low but has now come back online. I've had ,many tests, all the 3 adiol g etc. Mine was a high level which was promising. I'm still very hairy, growing more body hair all the time, still receding slightly.

My issues now from what I believe is low free t and low e2. My joints and hips are cracking and popping like crazy and feel generally lethargic. I also have this ache and pains in my calves a lot. I think I'm getting better in many aspects as now my sleep is amazing. I feel like I could sleep all day, which isn't great, but it beats insomnia! My cold hands and feet are gone, this got better since starting gluten free diet. I don't really have brain fog now I've been gluten free. Just more slow thoughts but I think this is from low t e2.
Since having low e2 my lean muscle is softer. I'm already lean and 6ft3. Never been fat.

I'm getting nocturnal and morning wood although it's not rock solid but I'd say 80%.

I'm adamant I can get out of this, I don't think I'm in the shithouse as much as some! I'm not comfortable win trt really but I'm at the stage now where I need to try and get back to work and normal life. I've read many people saying it makes them worse. The whole herb thing is something I want to try. I've read reports of pine pollen being an alpha reductase inhibitor though. Just scares the shit out of me since it's possibly saw palmetto that fucked me.

By the way did you take propecia or saw palmetto?

If you have celiacs disease than your digestive issues go beyond mine. How is that diagnosed anyway , with a lower endoscopy I'm assuming ? My digestive issues consisted of severe constipation that started after my second round of Saw P. When I say severe I mean I had a barium swallow Cat scan done that showed severe constipation. It took almost two years of eating a mostly paleo only diet to see improvments. If I get off of my diet than the problem returns really fast.

To answere your question I took Avodart (duel 5 alpha reductase inhibitor) when I was twenty two years old and had no problems what so ever.

I took my first round of Saw P when I was twenty six and got messed up. I took my second round of Saw P when I was twenty nine and got even more messed up lol

I'm thirty one and I am a little better off than where I was before my second round of Saw P. But that's coming far considering after my second round of Saw P I had severe insomnia, digestive issues and ED. My sleep is now pretty dam good and digestion is pretty good as long as I stick to paleo. My ED is more to the bad side of moderate and I am in better shape that I was in before my first round of Saw P. I can thank Cd's protocol that I discovered of PH shortly after my second round of Saw P (when I was at my worst) for all of my improvments.

As far as the pine pollen goes, I have found studies that show the some of the same fatty acids and plant sterols found in saw P are also found in Pine Pollen . I have expressed that concern on this website and got responses indicating that the fatty acid and plant sterol content in pine pollen is simply not high enough to inhibit 5AR.

Personally I believe this to be true but because I was actually messed up by Saw P twice and because I am still recovering I avoid pine pollen. This is just my opnion seeing that I don't think the potential reward out weighs the potential risk when it comes to my case. However I should also point out Pine pollen made me feel pretty dam good for the month I took it. I just don't feel like I need to take pine pollen because my diet and testosterone levels have already been addressed.

The one part of this protocol that I am guilty of not following is the fasting. The only fast I did was one seven day juice fast. I could totally handle going another seven days but I went from 195-179 pounds in only seven days of juice fasting ...I'm 6 foot 5 and looked really really unhealthy at 179 So I had to stop. Eventually (unless I recover first) I'll be saving up enough money to take about a month off from work/life so I can go to CA and just do a two week water fast with two weeks to recover so I can at least get back up to a somewhat normal weight before being seen by friends and family ect ...I'm curruntly 206 with almost no body fat. I went from 200-206 during a recent 6 week run on a DHT prohormone which I have been off of now for five weeks and I have kept all of my gains. I figure after another six week run in mid June and continuing to work out I can get up go 215. Once I'm at that weight I'll feel comfortable going into a 2 week water fast.

Lookingforhelp
05-18-2016, 10:40 AM
If you have celiacs disease than your digestive issues go beyond mine. How is that diagnosed anyway , with a lower endoscopy I'm assuming ? My digestive issues consisted of severe constipation that started after my second round of Saw P. When I say severe I mean I had a barium swallow Cat scan done that showed severe constipation. It took almost two years of eating a mostly paleo only diet to see improvments. If I get off of my diet than the problem returns really fast.

To answere your question I took Avodart (duel 5 alpha reductase inhibitor) when I was twenty two years old and had no problems what so ever.

I took my first round of Saw P when I was twenty six and got messed up. I took my second round of Saw P when I was twenty nine and got even more messed up lol

I'm thirty one and I am a little better off than where I was before my second round of Saw P. But that's coming far considering after my second round of Saw P I had severe insomnia, digestive issues and ED. My sleep is now pretty dam good and digestion is pretty good as long as I stick to paleo. My ED is more to the bad side of moderate and I am in better shape that I was in before my first round of Saw P. I can thank Cd's protocol that I discovered of PH shortly after my second round of Saw P (when I was at my worst) for all of my improvments.

As far as the pine pollen goes, I have found studies that show the some of the same fatty acids and plant sterols found in saw P are also found in Pine Pollen . I have expressed that concern on this website and got responses indicating that the fatty acid and plant sterol content in pine pollen is simply not high enough to inhibit 5AR.

Personally I believe this to be true but because I was actually messed up by Saw P twice and because I am still recovering I avoid pine pollen. This is just my opnion seeing that I don't think the potential reward out weighs the potential risk when it comes to my case. However I should also point out Pine pollen made me feel pretty dam good for the month I took it. I just don't feel like I need to take pine pollen because my diet and testosterone levels have already been addressed.

The one part of this protocol that I am guilty of not following is the fasting. The only fast I did was one seven day juice fast. I could totally handle going another seven days but I went from 195-179 pounds in only seven days of juice fasting ...I'm 6 foot 5 and looked really really unhealthy at 179 So I had to stop. Eventually (unless I recover first) I'll be saving up enough money to take about a month off from work/life so I can go to CA and just do a two week water fast with two weeks to recover so I can at least get back up to a somewhat normal weight before being seen by friends and family ect ...I'm curruntly 206 with almost no body fat. I went from 200-206 during a recent 6 week run on a DHT prohormone which I have been off of now for five weeks and I have kept all of my gains. I figure after another six week run in mid June and continuing to work out I can get up go 215. Once I'm at that weight I'll feel comfortable going into a 2 week water fast.


I never had an endoscopy but I have had blood tests which were high positives. I would have to go on a diet of eating pasta and bread for 6 weeks before he endoscopy then to be told I have it? It wasn't worth the damage. I have also had genetic testing for possible risks and a massive red flag for me was celiacs and over autoimmune gut issues. My father has crohns.
I decided to go gluten free and this is definitely what has aided my sleep and brain fog. I also posted further back in this post about a study with men with celiacs disease. They found they had raised prolactin levels and low 5 alpha reductase activity, going gluten free within a year the enzyme activity recovered. This with the way I felt was enough to know that gluten was no good for me.

Interestingly enough my prolactin levels are still high. I've had success with dopamine agonists before which have returned me to a near normal state but after a couple of weeks tapered off. Something happens hormone wise but I've delt with shitty Drs who would not test me again during the medications. They would just have me on cabergoline forever. I want to balance my hormones.. I don't have a tumor with regards to the prolactin. I have strange blood sugar issues, almost like a diabetic but from research I understand that prolactin can be implemented in diabetes too.

Do you have any blood sugar type issues? Feeling strange when not eating or after eating? Tingling in feet? Restless legs?

I've done everything health wise to get me there. Excercise and diet is tuned in perfectly as well as sleep. Need a little nudge in the right direction. If I really don't get anywhere with the endocrinologist next week I will be thinking about ordering the t boosting herbs.

My situation differs slightly from everyone on here. 5 years ago I had head trauma. It's hard to know if it's the saw palmetto or that which is fucking me now. I have no doubt it contributed to it. My dick looks normal, it's not cold, my nuts are big. I have more body hair per day and lose it off my head per night. It's hard to believe that I'm still suffering with 5 alpha reductase issues!...anyways, whatever it is I'll beat it.

I'm also tall. 6ft 4. Used to weigh around 216 pounds but since I've stopped working in my physical job and gone healtny diet wise I'm around 198. This is what also puts me off doing another fast as I will look so fucking ill.

Thanks for getting back to me.

5 alpha victim
05-21-2016, 02:02 PM
I never had an endoscopy but I have had blood tests which were high positives. I would have to go on a diet of eating pasta and bread for 6 weeks before he endoscopy then to be told I have it? It wasn't worth the damage. I have also had genetic testing for possible risks and a massive red flag for me was celiacs and over autoimmune gut issues. My father has crohns.
I decided to go gluten free and this is definitely what has aided my sleep and brain fog. I also posted further back in this post about a study with men with celiacs disease. They found they had raised prolactin levels and low 5 alpha reductase activity, going gluten free within a year the enzyme activity recovered. This with the way I felt was enough to know that gluten was no good for me.

Interestingly enough my prolactin levels are still high. I've had success with dopamine agonists before which have returned me to a near normal state but after a couple of weeks tapered off. Something happens hormone wise but I've delt with shitty Drs who would not test me again during the medications. They would just have me on cabergoline forever. I want to balance my hormones.. I don't have a tumor with regards to the prolactin. I have strange blood sugar issues, almost like a diabetic but from research I understand that prolactin can be implemented in diabetes too.

Do you have any blood sugar type issues? Feeling strange when not eating or after eating? Tingling in feet? Restless legs?

I've done everything health wise to get me there. Excercise and diet is tuned in perfectly as well as sleep. Need a little nudge in the right direction. If I really don't get anywhere with the endocrinologist next week I will be thinking about ordering the t boosting herbs.

My situation differs slightly from everyone on here. 5 years ago I had head trauma. It's hard to know if it's the saw palmetto or that which is fucking me now. I have no doubt it contributed to it. My dick looks normal, it's not cold, my nuts are big. I have more body hair per day and lose it off my head per night. It's hard to believe that I'm still suffering with 5 alpha reductase issues!...anyways, whatever it is I'll beat it.

I'm also tall. 6ft 4. Used to weigh around 216 pounds but since I've stopped working in my physical job and gone healtny diet wise I'm around 198. This is what also puts me off doing another fast as I will look so fucking ill.

Thanks for getting back to me.



Dam, they told you that you needed to eat pasta and bread before doing the endoscopy ? Why is that ? Does not sound like you needed the endoscopy to diagnose it anyway but I'm just curious.

Could you post a link to the study about the guy with celiacs disease and low 5 AR?
Do the results of the study actually connect a gluten free diet and increase 5AR?

The strange blood sugar issues you are having , are you getting low or high readings ? Or both?

I don't feel strange after or before eating in any way . However when I first crashed when I was 26... I had a couple abnormally low blood sugar readings . Low enough that warranted further blood testing to test for diabetes. My understanding of diabetes (and this is not something I know. Lot about) is that in order to have diabetes you need to have a combination of high and blood sugar readings. My doctor did agree that it was strange that I had unexplained low blood sugar readings but explained that all it means at the end of the day is my body burns energy much faster than others and to eat small portions more often.

I'd run from anything your enfo tells you to do regarding increasing T, I have been their done that and the end result is never good. If you try TRT do a low dose gel and give it three months tops of no improvements and get off of it. Don't buy into the "it usually takes a year of TRT to correct your issues". For our cases that's BS. Honestly though I would not go on it at all . Just use your endo to run blood work. In other words try the natural way to raise your levels and then go verify that you raised them through labs with the endo.

I believe in the fasting as far as how it can help us. Being 6'4. 6,5 and under 220 to begin with makes it much harder to fast than for everyone else. We are the hardest of the hard gainers. Just being up to 205 for me takes the same level of effort that guys on this website put into it who are probable 6-8 inches shorter and weigh about 220.

Cdsnuts
05-21-2016, 02:33 PM
I believe in the fasting as far as how it can help us. Being 6'4. 6,5 and under 220 to begin with makes it much harder to fast than for everyone else. We are the hardest of the hard gainers. Just being up to 205 for me takes the same level of effort that guys on this website put into it who are probable 6-8 inches shorter and weigh about 220.

Not true. You're placing limitations on yourself.....needlessly. Just so you know, I'm 6' 4.5" and have water fasted for up to 21 days and have gotten down to a weight of 169 lbs. My starting weight was 215. We can fast just as long as anyone else can. Aesthetically, I looked like a cancer patient when I was through, but this has nothing to do with looks and everything to do with what the fast can do for you physiologically.

Stop assuming these things.

5 alpha victim
05-22-2016, 07:49 PM
Not true. You're placing limitations on yourself.....needlessly. Just so you know, I'm 6' 4.5" and have water fasted for up to 21 days and have gotten down to a weight of 169 lbs. My starting weight was 215. We can fast just as long as anyone else can. Aesthetically, I looked like a cancer patient when I was through, but this has nothing to do with looks and everything to do with what the fast can do for you physiologically.

Stop assuming these things.


I seen your avatar at one point and figured you had to to be at least 250 pounds but did not realize you where pushing 6'5".

I guess I did assume that I'm the only tall guy who went down to 179 pounds during the very limited time I spent fasting.

I suppose I would have been pretty happy though if I had went another 7 days and only lost another 10 pounds and ended up at 169. I don't have a major issue with temporarily looking like a cancer patient for the future benefits. The biggest challenge for me with the fasting is that it does not go well with my job at all. I'm in law enforcement so being crazy fatigued at work is just a straight up safety issue for me. I know I can and will do fourteen days in the future though once I can get enough time off.

Cdsnuts
05-24-2016, 07:41 AM
I seen your avatar at one point and figured you had to to be at least 250 pounds but did not realize you where pushing 6'5".

I guess I did assume that I'm the only tall guy who went down to 179 pounds during the very limited time I spent fasting.

I suppose I would have been pretty happy though if I had went another 7 days and only lost another 10 pounds and ended up at 169. I don't have a major issue with temporarily looking like a cancer patient for the future benefits. The biggest challenge for me with the fasting is that it does not go well with my job at all. I'm in law enforcement so being crazy fatigued at work is just a straight up safety issue for me. I know I can and will do fourteen days in the future though once I can get enough time off.

You got it. You would need to take the time and go some where do to a properly supervised fast. If you can ever do it, it's worth it. Juice feasting is the next best thing although being in law enforcement it would still be sketchy because ANYTIME you cleanse weakness is to be expected.

These days I'm walking around at a comfortable 220 with 10-11% body fat. When cycling the weight goes up and the BF goes down. That is also another reason to REST when you're fasting so that you don't burn body fat un-necessarily and you can go for longer periods of time. You want your body to use the energy for cleansing, not exercise or other things. Also the further you get along in the fast the slower the weight starts to come off. In the beginning when you're dropping water weight I've dropped 10 pounds in DAYS and then it goes to 1.5-2lbs/ day and then around the 14 day mark it goes down to .75-1lb/day.

Brazilianguy
05-24-2016, 12:09 PM
You got it. You would need to take the time and go some where do to a properly supervised fast. If you can ever do it, it's worth it. Juice feasting is the next best thing although being in law enforcement it would still be sketchy because ANYTIME you cleanse weakness is to be expected.

These days I'm walking around at a comfortable 220 with 10-11% body fat. When cycling the weight goes up and the BF goes down. That is also another reason to REST when you're fasting so that you don't burn body fat un-necessarily and you can go for longer periods of time. You want your body to use the energy for cleansing, not exercise or other things. Also the further you get along in the fast the slower the weight starts to come off. In the beginning when you're dropping water weight I've dropped 10 pounds in DAYS and then it goes to 1.5-2lbs/ day and then around the 14 day mark it goes down to .75-1lb/day.

Hi Cd, do you still use the same PCT after cycle?

I'm still following your advices and I'm good atm. I don't know what happened but my test boosters stopped working, I guess it started to happen when I started to eating bad food and not drinking green smoothies, and also my vitamins and minerals supplement is over. Maybe it's one thing that helps the boosters to work, I really don't know. But I'm good, waking up with morning wood some days, some days with some libido, some muscle, mentally good, with some emotion. I would say I have a little bit of everything now, before I had none or even worse I would feel tired all day etc. I hope others are getting better too.

Thanks dude.

Cdsnuts
05-24-2016, 12:15 PM
Hi Cd, do you still use the same PCT after cycle?

I'm still following your advices and I'm good atm. I don't know what happened but my test boosters stopped working, I guess it started to happen when I started to eating bad food and not drinking green smoothies, and also my vitamins and minerals supplement is over. Maybe it's one thing that helps the boosters to work, I really don't know. But I'm good, waking up with morning wood some days, some days with some libido, some muscle, mentally good, with some emotion. I would say I have a little bit of everything now, before I had none or even worse I would feel tired all day etc. I hope others are getting better too.

Thanks dude.

No. I just jump right into herb rotation now.

xxLUK
10-07-2016, 12:32 AM
I warn people constantly that if you don't know how your body's going to react to it, avoid it. As I've said before, the consequences were gradual and got worse each time I used it. But the last time was horrible. Guessing that a 100% full recovery was 8 months, but like I said, there were milestones along the way that were encouraging.

I still run my recovery protocol because I like how I feel on it. Plus I had run R-Andro RX and figured I could use a little rebound. I haven't stopped it for long periods of time to see if there's regression. I've had only short term breaks.

how long did it take you to get shut down on fenugreek my bro?

Freepressright
08-08-2017, 11:59 AM
how long did it take you to get shut down on fenugreek my bro?

I don't know how I missed this question, so I hope you're still out there.

I ran fenugreek multiple times. The side effects were gradual, and got worse with each run.

The first time I ran it, I felt great. That's probably because of an initial spike in free test. I ran it for about 30 days.

The next time I ran it, I noticed a little bit of a reduction in libido. I could not figure out how a compound that was supposed to elevate free test would lower my libido. After all, it was spectacular the first time around.

The third time I combined it with bulk arginine AKG and citrulline, thinking that would provide extra insurance. This run, my penis absolutely stopped responding in some sexual situations. I could not figure it out, and still did not piece together that it was the fenugreek. Having recently come off of a PH cycle, I thought it had to be suppression, but I still had some mojo before the fenugreek.

The very last time I ran it, it was a primary ingredient in a product called Ultra GHT. Within two weeks, my sex drive shut down completely. My muscle pumps were gone. I could not get a pump lifting... AT ALL.

I had no stamina lifting. I had brain fog. Morning erections were non-existent. My genitals went cold on me. It was like the connection between my brain and genitals was completely broken.

Eventually I could not even muster the motivation to walk through the gym door. It was awful. Around this time, it was revealed to me that fenugreek was a 5-AR inhibitor. It all made sense at that point.