Idea - Cycling DHT and DHT Prohormones

[silverstrand]

Hello,

This is for all those familiar with 5ar suppression. I'm currently running andractim (1 full dose in morning) with some androhard v3 (1/3 dose) for a 3 month cycle of DHT to help reverse the shit I'm going through. I'm about 1/2 the way through this cycle.
I'm very curious though - I've heard that using different anabolics while on cycle can be more effective way of approaching a cycle. I'm thinking of maybe doing something like this to promote more dht into my system. For instance, I can use Androhard, Andractim, and Andro 300 maybe in a varied way to promote more DHT while confusing my body so as to limit suppression.

This is just an idea. I'm thinking of cycling from one to the other every 2 weeks to maybe every month for a full 3 months. Or maybe using Andractim as a base and cycling the two others.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[weekend]

no, this won't limit suppression

you would be better off adding some test and maybe other dht derivatives like mast, proviron, and primo if you want to try switching it up

if you don't feel better at least temporarily on andractim and test combined i don't know what's going to work.

i still wanna see a 5ar sufferer use tren

[Freepressright]

Hello,

This is for all those familiar with 5ar suppression. I'm currently running andractim (1 full dose in morning) with some androhard v3 (1/3 dose) for a 3 month cycle of DHT to help reverse the shit I'm going through. I'm about 1/2 the way through this cycle.
I'm very curious though - I've heard that using different anabolics while on cycle can be more effective way of approaching a cycle. I'm thinking of maybe doing something like this to promote more dht into my system. For instance, I can use Androhard, Andractim, and Andro 300 maybe in a varied way to promote more DHT while confusing my body so as to limit suppression.

This is just an idea. I'm thinking of cycling from one to the other every 2 weeks to maybe every month for a full 3 months. Or maybe using Andractim as a base and cycling the two others.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

This topic's way over my head. However, the common wisdom is that when you're trying to get natural production of a hormone back online, feeding yourself exogenous hormones is not a good strategy because it leads to suppression.

DHT, though, is a tricky thing. There really aren't studies one way or another speaking specifically to how suppressive exogenous DHT is. We know testosterone is suppressive.

I'm willing to bet that you just tired of feeling the effects of 5ar suppression and looking for a fix to feel normal again. I can't blame you. I went through it once after taking some fenugreek for a month and it was hell.

Good luck one way or another.

[weekend]

basically all 3 things you're using are pretty much gonna act the same in the body. no confusion there. lol.

[Freepressright]

I've never used an active DHT. But after Ultra Stano and bridging into IML's Epi Andro RX, I have veins in places I didn't think existed. I can't imagine the real deal being that much of an improvement. I'm plenty happy.

[WesleyInman]

no, this won't limit suppression

you would be better off adding some test and maybe other dht derivatives like mast, proviron, and primo if you want to try switching it up

if you don't feel better at least temporarily on andractim and test combined i don't know what's going to work.

i still wanna see a 5ar sufferer use tren


This- 100%

The only way you are going to get a better result would be synergy. So yes, combining a product like androhard while on Pure Test..100% will yield a far better result. Also the delivery system of the product you are using. Which arguably would suggest why something like AHV1 worked so well.or IML's version works superior to most version and why Ultra Stano is in a cyclodextrin.

What I do, is simply bump up my dosage. I am on 600mgs of Epi andro hard (which is essentially epi andro rx - IML's version) and I feel and look like a million bux. Libido is sky high. Muscles are harder, denser, etc.. Lines everywhere. DHT gets a bad rap because of hair thinning. I use Pura gold label DHT blocking shampoo..and my hair is coming in, on a high dosage..it's protecting hairline and then some.

[silverstrand]

Thanks for all the comments! I appreciate the info! I'll look into Tren but from what I remember, Tren has two pathways to suppresion of test - I can't exactly remember what they are at this time but I'll double check. This might be a possible solution

I dont care about my hair any longer as a matter of fact I welcome being bald. lol I started losing it at age 19 so my body is designed for high DHT. At that age and up until I took Fin at 23 (8 months, 2 mgs/day) - I would get pimples on my head. I had rock hard morning word every morning and it wouldn't subside until I pissed. Also, I was quick to anger but at the same time I was extremely enthusiastic about life. I'm looking for pimples on head as a sign my dht is back online. I've gotten a couple small ones lately. My dad had pimples on his head until age 50, I'm 32 now. As you can see, I've been in this condition for years and only within the last couple years, I've tried to do something about it.

You are right WesleyInman about the delivery method being different and I'm hoping to capitalize on that. For instance AV3 and AV2 are supposedly getting uptaked through the lymphatic system bypassing the liver - not sure about AV1. Alpha Hard looks to be through the GI track and passed through the liver. Andro 300 is topical so straight to the blood but needs conversion and Andractim is the direct stuff. All point to the same goal of increasing DHT but I've noticed on each of these the best benifits are within the first few days. I haven't tried Andro 300 yet but I will buy some here shortly. Has anyone tried this stuff? I'll look into getting some Epi as well.

My dumbass took Fenugreek from Primdordial Performance (great company, not dogging them at all, it was my fault) which is a 5ar suppressor and rice protein which is also a 5ar supppressor. I've wasted about a year plus and several cycles worth of AV3 because of these mistakes. I cannot afford to make these types of mistakes - financially, physically, emotionally.

On a positive note, my musculature has responsed very well to these cycles.

[silverstrand]

BTW guys, I got the idea of switching up compounds on cycle from Rich Piana. He mentions, he is able to keep his dosages lower by doing so otherwise he has to ramp up the dosage which leads to greater side effects. He talks about it on Youtube. Not sure how you all feel about him, but I wanted to give you the source of this idea to know where I'm coming from.

[Bam24]

Nothin against andro300. Worked ~ok. But I would take Epiandro hard or iml version over it anyday.. I think Gymntonic might still hv a few epiandro hard which I prefer bcuz the high mg per pill.. Less pills..


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[Bucks]

Epi Andro bank is loaded in my neighborhood! LOL. Nothing like a raging penis while Middle aged.

[Jelisej]

It seems that you got your question answered, I would just add few bits- some sex hormones/AAS are more supressive than others but they are all supressive including DHT so its not good to use them if trying to recover natural production.
As for DHT derivatives they all have similarites but also they have some differences- for example during cycle person can combine primobolan and masteron- they are both DHT derivatives but each of them activates few receptors than other doesnt so in a way they can compliment each other- so instead of using higher amount of masteron one can reduce masteron dose and add some primobola

Andractim is very similar to natural DHT, AFAIK its closest you can get to natural DHT but it does not have much anabolic properties (if any?), so andractim can be used and is best choice IMO to top up natural DHT levels (for example on TRT) while masteron would not be best , but using it during cycle it is poor choice and masteron would be good one.
I always recommend to people when they use testosterone to use some DHT derivstives as well- main reason is that testosterone does increase muscle growth but strenght not so much while DHT does not increase muscle growth that much but increases strenght. So its win-win situation.

[Bam24]

This "andractim" is it prescription only or ??? Surprisingly I've never heard of it before SS..


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[silverstrand]

I want to let everyone know that I have been following posters of this website for some time now and very much appreciate being a part of this group. I've made mistakes in my cycles and post cycles before. To avoid any future mistakes, I humbly come to this forum to run my ideas across those with the experience and knowledge. My goal is to prevent myself from making any more bad decisions and to contribute any knowledge/ideas that may help others.
That said,
My use of DHT at this time is to get my hormonal balance in place before packing on muscle. Right now I'm running a calorie deficit. Roughly 4 years ago, I was a soft 212lbs probably 25% body fat (like a woman) because my hormones were so out of wack. Diet and exercise reduced that to 190lbs. My cycles and continued diet and exercise now has me down to 165lbs and sub 14% body fat. I'm 5'10. The chicks are hitting on me hardcore but my desire is moderate (not terrible). It’s like I'm driving a Ford Fiat (nothing against anyone who owns one) when I know what it’s like to drive a Ferrari Formula 1. The DHT is helping me retain most of my muscle and strength while shedding fat. Part of my program is to burn this aromatizing fat for a couple reasons - 1. More fat ='s more estrogen and secondly, I read some many articles in which many toxins are stored in fat. Its amazing, I read about this guy that use to do drugs in the 70's and had quit for over 20 years. He was then asked to do a detox and the guy was like, "wth, I've been clean for 20 years." To which, the response was "Just do it". So he started burning fat and then hitting the Sauna, roughly 7 times in one month. His first time in the sauna, he had an acid trip and couldn't believe it. Several other drug highs followed until they subsided after a month. Point is, I may still have residuals of this F...k'n pharma drug stored in my fat. Just a guess, maybe not. Either way, I like the cut I'm experiencing and my sauna time every week. Goal is to hit 10%.

I'll check out GYmTonic for the EPi.

BTW - I did check out Tren for possible uses. My main concern right now is it can cause insomnia which is something I'm struggling with. Its really the worst problem I have to deal with at this time. Some days are torture but lately its been on and off.

- - - Updated - - -

Andractim is prescription only, however, you can get it at all saints clinic. They ship from overseas.

[weekend]

are you currently on test?

the reason why it will work better with actual test in y our system is undoubtedly your natural test (and thus source of estrogen) are going down, and this is going to cause changes in aromatase activity over time. kind of the way people can get gyno after a cycle of something like anavar solo even though no estrogenic buildup couldve occurred.
definitely add 100-200 mg test, then try the DHT derivatives before going to tren

[silverstrand]

are you currently on test?

the reason why it will work better with actual test in y our system is undoubtedly your natural test (and thus source of estrogen) are going down, and this is going to cause changes in aromatase activity over time. kind of the way people can get gyno after a cycle of something like anavar solo even though no estrogenic buildup couldve occurred.
definitely add 100-200 mg test, then try the DHT derivatives before going to tren

I'm not on test at this time. The reason is my aromatase activity is very high - I'm estrogen dominant at this time and that is because I have little androgen procduction to counter blanace it. I dont have any labs but from everything I've read, this seems to be very much the case. Also, from what I've read, straight DHT isn't as suppressive as direct test; however, I'm not sure to what degree. Andractim reports show little hpta suppression and Eric Potratz also points to limited suppression from straight DHT prohormones. My hope is that any reduction in Testosterone will also reduce my Estrogen and leave more DHT available to do its thing. A lot of this is guess work.
I never knew Anavar could cause gyno, I'm guessing more so from PCT versus during cycle. This makes me think a taping approach from my current DHT might be a better way to end my cycle rather than straight dropping it. I've been thinking about this for some time now and haven't made up my mind.

[BBG]

Mestebol (oxime of proviron) is still available... Currently OOS but should be back soon.

[tallstraw]

^how does that act?

[weekend]

I think you're thinking about this in the wrong way. I was definitely suppressed on my first cycle of androhard only. My nuts shrank significantly.

Adding test at a low dose will reduce the chances of some type of estrogenic rebound. You're increasing your likelyhood of one by dropping estrogen too low through a dht only cycle.

That is the same way anavar would cause gyno.

I do like tapering dht into pct though. It allows gyno prevention and strength retention while your testosterone begins to increase from the serms. 2 week taper is good.

[weekend]

(Low estrogen increases aromatase activity/production because there is no substrate (testosterone) to be converted. The dht antagonizes this increased aromatase (and otherwise it wouldn't be doing anything else) but once you're all said and done you've increased your bodies aromatase activity (although in theory the 5-ar activity will also increase. You must remember high estrogen reduces your desired activity of dht (they are competitive with relatively opposite effects)

- - - Updated - - -

Lol at my use of parentheses

[English]

Hi Silverstrand,

I am virtually recovered now from the same shit your dealing with, i took propecia though which lowered DHT and ended in same result as you. Many guys get the same issue from taking saw palmetto too - in a way it is a relief for me that it is not just some weird phenomenen from propecia/finasteride.
I have been through the same recoverery plan as a number of others who also recovered - i copied the common denominators.
Of course it is possible that i am wrong, but i am 100% convinced that our issue has nothing to do with suppressed AR5 expression now. Why? Because virtually every blood result i have seen - and i have looked at 100's - from sufferers has shown normal DHT expression, or at least in the range expected when linked with the free testosterone scores.
You can take DHT away completely, leaving normal T and E levels and most guys still feel fine.
No, IMO you can cycle the DHT by all means, primarily because studies have shown the presence of increased DHT does upregulate AR5 activity, but personally i would do it for smaller cycles, with modest doses.
My money is on the cause being some kind of downregulation of receptors or signalling issue, that gradually fixes over time, encouraged by solid diet, low stress and the resultant raising of androgens - over time.
To give you some idea of where i was - i lost nearly 28 pounds of muscle, suffered anxiety, insomnia, had all the sexual issues, thin dry skin, hair dry and falling out. I certainly wanted to die most days, but never gave up on being positive and carrying out the plan.
If you haven't already done it, i would advise you read the recovery story of CDSNUTS on propecia help -BUT IGNORE ALL THE NEGATIVE SHIT ON THERE - print it off and keep it with you.
Personally i only fasted for 3 days, but i did the rest and i have all but recovered within 17 months. His recovery plan mirrored most of the stuff within about 10 other recovery stories i read too there and on the rest of the web, and whilst he did cycle DHT, it was for just 6 weeks and this was one small part of the overal plan, and i will add that this did not feature in any of the tens of recoveries i have read elsewhere.
Regards bloods, it might help a bit to see the easy transformation i achieved (with the advice of Jelisej) by reading the SHBG questions thread (in general section), and this lifted me from an almost recovered state to what i consider a recovered state - if not quite optimal yet.
More power to you if you achieve your desired result in a different way, but just drawing your attention to the more common recovery protocol for this issue.
Hope that helps a bit.

[English]

Thanks for all the comments! I appreciate the info! I'll look into Tren but from what I remember, Tren has two pathways to suppresion of test - I can't exactly remember what they are at this time but I'll double check. This might be a possible solution

I dont care about my hair any longer as a matter of fact I welcome being bald. lol I started losing it at age 19 so my body is designed for high DHT. At that age and up until I took Fin at 23 (8 months, 2 mgs/day) - I would get pimples on my head. I had rock hard morning word every morning and it wouldn't subside until I pissed. Also, I was quick to anger but at the same time I was extremely enthusiastic about life. I'm looking for pimples on head as a sign my dht is back online. I've gotten a couple small ones lately. My dad had pimples on his head until age 50, I'm 32 now. As you can see, I've been in this condition for years and only within the last couple years, I've tried to do something about it.

You are right WesleyInman about the delivery method being different and I'm hoping to capitalize on that. For instance AV3 and AV2 are supposedly getting uptaked through the lymphatic system bypassing the liver - not sure about AV1. Alpha Hard looks to be through the GI track and passed through the liver. Andro 300 is topical so straight to the blood but needs conversion and Andractim is the direct stuff. All point to the same goal of increasing DHT but I've noticed on each of these the best benifits are within the first few days. I haven't tried Andro 300 yet but I will buy some here shortly. Has anyone tried this stuff? I'll look into getting some Epi as well.

My dumbass took Fenugreek from Primdordial Performance (great company, not dogging them at all, it was my fault) which is a 5ar suppressor and rice protein which is also a 5ar supppressor. I've wasted about a year plus and several cycles worth of AV3 because of these mistakes. I cannot afford to make these types of mistakes - financially, physically, emotionally.

On a positive note, my musculature has responsed very well to these cycles.

Just want to point out that hair loss is because of the genetic disposition of certain hair follicles to react to DHT or not + 100 issues. You get guys with high DHT levels that have brilliant heads of head till the day they die. It has very little to do with DHT levels in isolation, however clearly if you ramp up DHT with exogenous pharma then already sensitive follicles will run for cover. I know you don't care about hair anymore (neither do i) but it is wrong to summise you naturally have high DHT just because of genetic hair loss and pimples and therefore you must get back to high DHT. The overwhelming odds are that you had fairly standard levels of DHT/Test/E etc. for your age, but you had/have hair and skin that is sensitive to androgens, as was your whole body given your MW etc.
I personally remember hitting my erect penis in frustration every morning trying to get it to go down so i could take a piss! You don't appreciate what you have till it's gone etc.

[English]

I'm not on test at this time. The reason is my aromatase activity is very high - I'm estrogen dominant at this time and that is because I have little androgen procduction to counter blanace it. I dont have any labs but from everything I've read, this seems to be very much the case. Also, from what I've read, straight DHT isn't as suppressive as direct test; however, I'm not sure to what degree. Andractim reports show little hpta suppression and Eric Potratz also points to limited suppression from straight DHT prohormones. My hope is that any reduction in Testosterone will also reduce my Estrogen and leave more DHT available to do its thing. A lot of this is guess work.
I never knew Anavar could cause gyno, I'm guessing more so from PCT versus during cycle. This makes me think a taping approach from my current DHT might be a better way to end my cycle rather than straight dropping it. I've been thinking about this for some time now and haven't made up my mind.

Silverstrand, sorry to be blunt but you are experimenting with some serious shit without having any idea of your current hormonal situation, sufferers of this condition often think this or that about their hormones, get tested and find the opposite of what they thought the results would be. I know of many guys with high T, high DHT and normal E and yet they impotent and suffer with low androgen symptoms- this is the post fin condition sadly.
If i were you i would get off the DHT and all pharma for a few months, concentrate on diet, exercise and your mental state and then get bloods done. It is relatively easy to manipulate your bloods but you really need to know the position from which you are manipulating in the first place.
As an example, 5 blood tests over my first year of suffering showed my androgen levels were in the toilet, but my last 2 bloods have shown T at 28 and 24, (800 and 700) E at around 40 nmol/L and SHBG at 36, and i got them there through diet, exercise and extremely low dose of AI. I could achieve this because i told the guys here my bloods. Jelisej advised me and i reacted accordingly.
You are shooting in the dark and given how easy it is to get your bloods done, surely you should see where you are at. If you keep diet and exercise solid and get off all pharma etc. for 3 months, like many guys with this issue, you may well already have naturally high T and DHT yet still feel shit, and this is often the way. In this situation you just have to keep positive, and keep the exercise and diet consistent and over time you will improve, and yes, i see you have been suffering for almost 10 years, but from what you wrote, you have only just got serious about exercise and nutrition yes? I expect that you are retaining muscle better as a result of your recent diet and exercise and potential upregulation of AR receptors etc. not the DHT which is not particularly androgenic in relation to muscle building.
My bloods look great, but i am still not feeling optimally healthy. It sucks but such is the condition, sometimes shit just takes time to work it's way through.
I hope you don't think i am ripping into your methodology unduly. I am one of the most positive guys there is when it comes to recovering from this condition, but to get recovered, it takes both positivity, but also a considered approach. After so long i want to see you recover as you clearly have the will to do it. I just want the best for you, so hopefully i have given you some more information from someone who has all but recovered.
By the way, just to add weight to what i am saying. A friend of mine decided to do follow the same plan as me, virtually at the same time, we both left Propecia Help because it was so negative, he is all but recovered too now. Neither of us owe our recoveries to DHT or derivitives, however both of us are now cycling with them, but just to optimise. Both of us know our blood conditions through testing.
Just sayin.
All the very best of luck to you in whatever you decide.

[entropy]

I'm going to take a different approach to everyone else and critique. So, where to begin. How's your diet and exercise? Solid as a rock I'd assume? That's the core to any kinda healing here. Why are you cycling three different "forms" of dht? What the point here? All this confusing your body with different compounds crap is a recipe for disaster. Anyway its possible to get out of this situation but long stints of exogenous hormones aren't the answer IMO.

[tallstraw]

I'm just gonna say thanks for the adractim location and goodluck on your journey

[English]

I'm going to take a different approach to everyone else and critique. So, where to begin. How's your diet and exercise? Solid as a rock I'd assume? That's the core to any kinda healing here. Why are you cycling three different "forms" of dht? What the point here? All this confusing your body with different compounds crap is a recipe for disaster. Anyway its possible to get out of this situation but long stints of exogenous hormones aren't the answer IMO.

Yep, that was kinda what i was saying but in a less direct way - totally agree.

[silverstrand]

I think you're thinking about this in the wrong way. I was definitely suppressed on my first cycle of androhard only. My nuts shrank significantly.

Adding test at a low dose will reduce the chances of some type of estrogenic rebound. You're increasing your likelyhood of one by dropping estrogen too low through a dht only cycle.

That is the same way anavar would cause gyno.

I do like tapering dht into pct though. It allows gyno prevention and strength retention while your testosterone begins to increase from the serms. 2 week taper is good.


I see your point - at this time, I dont have any test on me and I'm nearly halfway through this cycle. However, I you helped me make up my mind on the tapering - 2 weeks was about what I was thinking.

[silverstrand]

Hi Silverstrand,

I am virtually recovered now from the same shit your dealing with, i took propecia though which lowered DHT and ended in same result as you. Many guys get the same issue from taking saw palmetto too - in a way it is a relief for me that it is not just some weird phenomenen from propecia/finasteride.
I have been through the same recoverery plan as a number of others who also recovered - i copied the common denominators.
Of course it is possible that i am wrong, but i am 100% convinced that our issue has nothing to do with suppressed AR5 expression now. Why? Because virtually every blood result i have seen - and i have looked at 100's - from sufferers has shown normal DHT expression, or at least in the range expected when linked with the free testosterone scores.
You can take DHT away completely, leaving normal T and E levels and most guys still feel fine.
No, IMO you can cycle the DHT by all means, primarily because studies have shown the presence of increased DHT does upregulate AR5 activity, but personally i would do it for smaller cycles, with modest doses.
My money is on the cause being some kind of downregulation of receptors or signalling issue, that gradually fixes over time, encouraged by solid diet, low stress and the resultant raising of androgens - over time.
To give you some idea of where i was - i lost nearly 28 pounds of muscle, suffered anxiety, insomnia, had all the sexual issues, thin dry skin, hair dry and falling out. I certainly wanted to die most days, but never gave up on being positive and carrying out the plan.
If you haven't already done it, i would advise you read the recovery story of CDSNUTS on propecia help -BUT IGNORE ALL THE NEGATIVE SHIT ON THERE - print it off and keep it with you.
Personally i only fasted for 3 days, but i did the rest and i have all but recovered within 17 months. His recovery plan mirrored most of the stuff within about 10 other recovery stories i read too there and on the rest of the web, and whilst he did cycle DHT, it was for just 6 weeks and this was one small part of the overal plan, and i will add that this did not feature in any of the tens of recoveries i have read elsewhere.
Regards bloods, it might help a bit to see the easy transformation i achieved (with the advice of Jelisej) by reading the SHBG questions thread (in general section), and this lifted me from an almost recovered state to what i consider a recovered state - if not quite optimal yet.
More power to you if you achieve your desired result in a different way, but just drawing your attention to the more common recovery protocol for this issue.
Hope that helps a bit.

Its a relief for me as well that Fenugreek, Rice Extract, and Saw Palmentto can all cause the same issues and that those issues can be resolved.
There's a lot of theories floating around such as the one you mention. Also, I've read somewhere that the body potentially is producing a form of androgen resistence, mimicking Finasteride after stopping the drug. I guess it would make sense that the body once it gets used to a certain homeostatus, it will fight to maintain that status and thereby produce the very compounds no longer administered exogenously. I've looked into transgender from Male to Female and anti androgens are key for this transition. Warning lables should include that this drug can and is used for such purposes. I would have never touched the stuff if I knew. I believe my body is in a confused state, so basically, I need to slap the bitch out of me with androgens and clean lifestyle like you mention.
I took your advice and read his story, there's some great info! I've been to that site before and there is a lot of negativity - I've never been a negative person and I'm very much against that type of behavior.
I'll take a look at the SHBG - I find this interesting because I think the body might actually be binding some of this DHT I put into it and expelling it during urination. I feel, I might be losing a lot of the compounds (another guess). I think you are right in that getting some blood work would be informative.
Can you point me in the direction of those other 10 recovery stories? - if its too much trouble no worries.

[silverstrand]

Just want to point out that hair loss is because of the genetic disposition of certain hair follicles to react to DHT or not + 100 issues. You get guys with high DHT levels that have brilliant heads of head till the day they die. It has very little to do with DHT levels in isolation, however clearly if you ramp up DHT with exogenous pharma then already sensitive follicles will run for cover. I know you don't care about hair anymore (neither do i) but it is wrong to summise you naturally have high DHT just because of genetic hair loss and pimples and therefore you must get back to high DHT. The overwhelming odds are that you had fairly standard levels of DHT/Test/E etc. for your age, but you had/have hair and skin that is sensitive to androgens, as was your whole body given your MW etc.
I personally remember hitting my erect penis in frustration every morning trying to get it to go down so i could take a piss! You don't appreciate what you have till it's gone etc.

You absolutely dont appreciate it until its lost - its been 10 years for me now - I want that back! After reading about other peoples successes, I feel I can. I'm not too sure that my levels are all that good, only because I cant sleep for much longer than 4 hrs at a time and I dont have morning wood. I a rare occasion, I will wake up to a solid rock hard boner but thats so sporatic. Typically, I have morning soft wood. Sex is alright. The women I'm with seem to enjoy it but I know its just not me.
Even though I've been running Andractim for a month and a half, my hair hasn't fallen out. I've even tried rubbing some on the top of my scalp and still my hair stays strong. This leads me to believe there is some form of androgen resistance. I've also noticed that after urinating, my libido goes down from the uptick it gets from Andractim and Androhard. I believe my body is trying to expel the androgens. This is also why I think a longer cycle makes more sense. I've read from this forum and from people like Eric Potratz that it takes 2 months or more to directly affect the hormonal balance of the body in a perminant way. Shorter cycles allow for a rebound to the norm but I dont want my current norm, I want a new norm.

[silverstrand]

Silverstrand, sorry to be blunt but you are experimenting with some serious shit without having any idea of your current hormonal situation, sufferers of this condition often think this or that about their hormones, get tested and find the opposite of what they thought the results would be. I know of many guys with high T, high DHT and normal E and yet they impotent and suffer with low androgen symptoms- this is the post fin condition sadly.
If i were you i would get off the DHT and all pharma for a few months, concentrate on diet, exercise and your mental state and then get bloods done. It is relatively easy to manipulate your bloods but you really need to know the position from which you are manipulating in the first place.
As an example, 5 blood tests over my first year of suffering showed my androgen levels were in the toilet, but my last 2 bloods have shown T at 28 and 24, (800 and 700) E at around 40 nmol/L and SHBG at 36, and i got them there through diet, exercise and extremely low dose of AI. I could achieve this because i told the guys here my bloods. Jelisej advised me and i reacted accordingly.
You are shooting in the dark and given how easy it is to get your bloods done, surely you should see where you are at. If you keep diet and exercise solid and get off all pharma etc. for 3 months, like many guys with this issue, you may well already have naturally high T and DHT yet still feel shit, and this is often the way. In this situation you just have to keep positive, and keep the exercise and diet consistent and over time you will improve, and yes, i see you have been suffering for almost 10 years, but from what you wrote, you have only just got serious about exercise and nutrition yes? I expect that you are retaining muscle better as a result of your recent diet and exercise and potential upregulation of AR receptors etc. not the DHT which is not particularly androgenic in relation to muscle building.
My bloods look great, but i am still not feeling optimally healthy. It sucks but such is the condition, sometimes shit just takes time to work it's way through.
I hope you don't think i am ripping into your methodology unduly. I am one of the most positive guys there is when it comes to recovering from this condition, but to get recovered, it takes both positivity, but also a considered approach. After so long i want to see you recover as you clearly have the will to do it. I just want the best for you, so hopefully i have given you some more information from someone who has all but recovered.
By the way, just to add weight to what i am saying. A friend of mine decided to do follow the same plan as me, virtually at the same time, we both left Propecia Help because it was so negative, he is all but recovered too now. Neither of us owe our recoveries to DHT or derivitives, however both of us are now cycling with them, but just to optimise. Both of us know our blood conditions through testing.
Just sayin.
All the very best of luck to you in whatever you decide.

No, I dont feel you are ripping me at all. I appreciate your feedback - I joined this group for that very reason. I dont want people to just agree with me all the time. I've made mistakes in the past and these discussions help me refine my thoughts and therefore my corresponding actions to avoid similar mistakes in the future.
To answer your question, yes, I've only been serious about it the last couple years. I only ever felt like I was capable of reversing this condition within the last 2 years. I really needed too because as we age, naturally our hormone profiles drop. Well, I crippled mine way too early and therefore, I really started feeling like shit. I knew it wasn't natural and that I had to do something.
I want to finish up this cycle and take a long 3 month break where I will have a PCT and cycle testosterone boosters. This thread was started because I'm trying to plan out my next cycle and I'm brainstorming. Plus I figured it be a great way to meet everyone on this forum.

[silverstrand]

I'm going to take a different approach to everyone else and critique. So, where to begin. How's your diet and exercise? Solid as a rock I'd assume? That's the core to any kinda healing here. Why are you cycling three different "forms" of dht? What the point here? All this confusing your body with different compounds crap is a recipe for disaster. Anyway its possible to get out of this situation but long stints of exogenous hormones aren't the answer IMO.

Diet is great - mainly raw foods/vegies with some Pea Protein in the mix. If anyone has something against Pea protein, let me konw - all research I found points to it being good source of protein that isn't anti androgenic. Exercise is good too. I can run 2 miles in 12min 30 secs to give you some idea of conditioning.
The different forms are mainly because of their different delivery systems, timing, and the way the body converts the various hormones to DHT. At this time, I'm only on 5gs of andractim and 1/3 does of Androhard V3 per day.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm just gonna say thanks for the adractim location and goodluck on your journey

No prob tallstraw, gald I could help

[5 alpha victim]

Hi English,
I have been following your posts. It sounds like you have learned a lot and have made major progress.

You said that:

Personally i only fasted for 3 days, but i did the rest and i have all but recovered within 17 months.

During the 17 month that most of your recovery took place during how much of that time did you spend cycling DHT prohormones and cycling natural T boostets/herbs?

You mentioned that you cycled epi andro at least once and that you are curruntly cycling alpha hard. Are these your only two DHT prohormone cycles?

What's your experience with rotating t boosting herbs ?

Thanks for any more info you can provide

[English]

Its a relief for me as well that Fenugreek, Rice Extract, and Saw Palmentto can all cause the same issues and that those issues can be resolved.
There's a lot of theories floating around such as the one you mention. Also, I've read somewhere that the body potentially is producing a form of androgen resistence, mimicking Finasteride after stopping the drug. I guess it would make sense that the body once it gets used to a certain homeostatus, it will fight to maintain that status and thereby produce the very compounds no longer administered exogenously. I've looked into transgender from Male to Female and anti androgens are key for this transition. Warning lables should include that this drug can and is used for such purposes. I would have never touched the stuff if I knew. I believe my body is in a confused state, so basically, I need to slap the bitch out of me with androgens and clean lifestyle like you mention.
I took your advice and read his story, there's some great info! I've been to that site before and there is a lot of negativity - I've never been a negative person and I'm very much against that type of behavior.
I'll take a look at the SHBG - I find this interesting because I think the body might actually be binding some of this DHT I put into it and expelling it during urination. I feel, I might be losing a lot of the compounds (another guess). I think you are right in that getting some blood work would be informative.
Can you point me in the direction of those other 10 recovery stories? - if its too much trouble no worries.

We may never know why i suppose, but i am pretty much now of the mindset of who gives a fuck, we only have one life and concentrating on fixing it is basically the only thing in our control.
I researched for at least 12 months, about 20hrs a week - i don't have money worries so i took the time out. I found what i counted up to be around 30 recovery stories in total, both on PH and on the wider net, probably 5 or 6 using pharma assistance like clomid, the remainder just time, and healthy living etc. I wrote the common denominators of what they did into a grid, and i then condensed that down into a recovery plan, binning the bits that were replicated just a couple of times, and majoring on those areas very common to recovery. In the end what i found was that CDSNUTS had pretty much nailed it after 5 years of trial and error (based on the limited set of data i used).
I haven't the time or inclination to provide those recovery stories, the fact is that for every one written on the web, there are another 10 probably, maybe even 100 times more. Alot of guys just quietly get on with it, and it is my firm belief that it tends to be those that don't make a big song and dance over it that recover- the very people that are likely to not be posting stuff on forums. Personally, i found the support helpful of this forum though, and i am an obsessive personality so i could not avoid worrying like fuck, and thus needed support to limit it, which ultimately wins the day

[English]

You absolutely dont appreciate it until its lost - its been 10 years for me now - I want that back! After reading about other peoples successes, I feel I can. I'm not too sure that my levels are all that good, only because I cant sleep for much longer than 4 hrs at a time and I dont have morning wood. I a rare occasion, I will wake up to a solid rock hard boner but thats so sporatic. Typically, I have morning soft wood. Sex is alright. The women I'm with seem to enjoy it but I know its just not me.
Even though I've been running Andractim for a month and a half, my hair hasn't fallen out. I've even tried rubbing some on the top of my scalp and still my hair stays strong. This leads me to believe there is some form of androgen resistance. I've also noticed that after urinating, my libido goes down from the uptick it gets from Andractim and Androhard. I believe my body is trying to expel the androgens. This is also why I think a longer cycle makes more sense. I've read from this forum and from people like Eric Potratz that it takes 2 months or more to directly affect the hormonal balance of the body in a perminant way. Shorter cycles allow for a rebound to the norm but I dont want my current norm, I want a new norm.

For me and this is just my opinion, you are talking crazy stuff. I think you are correct that there is androgen resistance in whatever form, and you have demonstrated that to yourself by knowing your hair is sensitive to DHT yet is unnafected by all the DHT you are putting into it, yet you think shovelling more and more of the stuff down your throat and for ever longer periods will help. I am pretty certain it won't and you could just make things worse as if your body is seeking an equilibrium of low androgen (as that is what it has become used to) then logic would suggest that exogenously and massively raising androgen could make it downgrade it's sensitivity to androgen even further - then what happens when you get off it?
You need to raise your sensitivity to androgen, you do that by training to the sensible limit that your body can take - HIIT training, heavy weights, mixed with cardio or regular walking to keep yourself fit. Great diet, laughing fucking, thinking you are the big alpha male dog etc. This shit seems to raise sensitivity to androgens, and that makes sense if you think about the 300 odd million year of evolution that has got us to where we are.

[English]

No, I dont feel you are ripping me at all. I appreciate your feedback - I joined this group for that very reason. I dont want people to just agree with me all the time. I've made mistakes in the past and these discussions help me refine my thoughts and therefore my corresponding actions to avoid similar mistakes in the future.
To answer your question, yes, I've only been serious about it the last couple years. I only ever felt like I was capable of reversing this condition within the last 2 years. I really needed too because as we age, naturally our hormone profiles drop. Well, I crippled mine way too early and therefore, I really started feeling like shit. I knew it wasn't natural and that I had to do something.
I want to finish up this cycle and take a long 3 month break where I will have a PCT and cycle testosterone boosters. This thread was started because I'm trying to plan out my next cycle and I'm brainstorming. Plus I figured it be a great way to meet everyone on this forum.

Good, you have the correct attitude, for me you need to get off whatever shit you are on at the moment and take 3 months off doing all the right things, naturally, get bloods done, post them and then let people like Jelisej comment, they know way more than me about altering bloods, but lets be clear on this, you want to nudge them in the right direction being as natural as possible, not hit them with a sledge hammer. The main thing is mental health, diet, exercise and consistency over long periods of time.
Not sure why you would even complete your current cycle to be honest, your just putting more pressure on your HPTA axis when you don't know whether it was already on it's knees. You cycle when you know your axis is in good shape, otherwise you risk fucking it up, then you'll not only have androgen resistence, you will also not be producing enough to know when you are recovering etc.

[English]

Diet is great - mainly raw foods/vegies with some Pea Protein in the mix. If anyone has something against Pea protein, let me konw - all research I found points to it being good source of protein that isn't anti androgenic. Exercise is good too. I can run 2 miles in 12min 30 secs to give you some idea of conditioning.
The different forms are mainly because of their different delivery systems, timing, and the way the body converts the various hormones to DHT. At this time, I'm only on 5gs of andractim and 1/3 does of Androhard V3 per day.

- - - Updated - - -



No prob tallstraw, gald I could help

Straight away i see you are not eating or exercising right. I have nothing again pea protein, veggies or running a decent 2 mile time, but you should be concentrating on animal protein, lots of high quality saturated animal fats, then comes lots of veggies and fruit and complex carbohydrate. Your exercise should be based on HIIT, calisthetics (i will have spelt that wrong), weights (5x5) and complemented by some cardio to keep you fit.
You may be doing all that, but i doubt it given you didn't mention it. This my friend is why you have spent 10 years like you have.

[English]

Hi English,
I have been following your posts. It sounds like you have learned a lot and have made major progress.

You said that:

Personally i only fasted for 3 days, but i did the rest and i have all but recovered within 17 months.

During the 17 month that most of your recovery took place during how much of that time did you spend cycling DHT prohormones and cycling natural T boostets/herbs?

You mentioned that you cycled epi andro at least once and that you are curruntly cycling alpha hard. Are these your only two DHT prohormone cycles?

What's your experience with rotating t boosting herbs ?

Thanks for any more info you can provide

All of my recovery came from diet, exercise and right at the end i took low dose AI which took me over the top and actually increased E whilst also increasing T (yes you can achieve that with smart use of AI)
Only 3 weeks ago did i run Alpha Hard, but to be honest being on stuff i know is affecting my HPTA axis kinda freaks me out and i don't like it, although it did give me some additional mental clarity. I did try epi andro for about 3 days but it made me so tired i couldn't cope with it and binned it.
I'm gunna stay natural, apart from what is now an extremely low dose of exemestane twice a week, and i will be halving that every 2 months till off it.

If you want to recover, replicate CDSNUTS / Mitches /Chi's / My recovery plan - all are virtually one and the same. I would also add holosync by centrepoint to it, and read mind over medicine by lisa rankin. Most of what you need to achieve is in the mind.

[tallstraw]

English, think there's ever a point of recovery like us normal guys, to the point that you can cycle again? Or do you think you'll have to stay natty?

[English]

English, think there's ever a point of recovery like us normal guys, to the point that you can cycle again? Or do you think you'll have to stay natty?

Hi TS,

I think your saying can post fin guys recover fully and react normally to prohormones etc. The answer to that is definitely yes, as i react fairly normally to them myself now with a sharper mind, and i forgot to say it positively affected my intensity at the gym, and i function normally now elsewhere anyways so i am pretty much there now. CDSNUTS is over the horizon with his recovery and he cycles normally now and has been for a while.
For me, i am being cautious while cycling because it has been a lot of hard work to recover solid T levels etc. As i gain in confidence with time i do plan to extend cycles to 6 weeks, and in the end optimise to the level cd is at.
I've nothing to complain about though, i tip the scales at over 14 stone now and all muscle, i'm pretty fit and healthy again, solid bloods etc. happy days.

[tallstraw]

Okay, cool yeah I didn't mean normal in an offensive way. More so a baseline and yu guys are the outliers kind of way. Whether or not this basically killed all future steroid use or not. But my question has been answered thank you.

[English]

Okay, cool yeah I didn't mean normal in an offensive way. More so a baseline and yu guys are the outliers kind of way. Whether or not this basically killed all future steroid use or not. But my question has been answered thank you.

When i have been recovered for more than 2 years, i will never again touch DHT derivatives, AI's or any pharma of any sort unless i have cancer or other such lift threatening condition. I have learnt a lot after vanity led me to using fin (following a doctors recommendation at a party when we were taking the piss out of each other hair)
I used to body build 100% natural many years ago and i put on muscle easily, looked great and life was great. I am just starting to put muscle on easily again and after all the hundreds of stories that i have read from both terrified bodybuilders and ex fin or other such pharma product users who have broken their HPTA's and can't get them restarted, i honestly cannot think the use of any of it is a good idea for anyone who is already healthy.
When you are young it is the very hormones you seek to improve upon that drive you to take risks you cannot fully understand until you take one risk too many. You are older for far longer than you are younger, and exercising caution in the area of steroid use will ensure that you don't burn bright for 10 years, and then potentially have to live a life bordering on hell for another 50. So many people on the net who have done exactly that, just like i nearly did (except via fin), thank fuck i was able to recover.
Just be careful.

[5 alpha victim]

So English would this be a accurate summery of your recovery story:

During a 17 month period you stayed on a strict paleo diet while following a solid strong fitness/ work out routine. Towards the end of this 17 month period you started a low dose AI that you are curruntly still taking. Also during this time you added in a couple of small cycles of DHT prohormones that had little to know significance in your recovery. As of this time you are 75-100 percent recovered.

I know I probable sound like a broken record. Sorry if I do but the more I know about you and Entropy's situations/stories the better position I'm in to start making decisions and possibly provide any input of my own that may be of assistance for you guys as well. After all it's just about me.

[English]

So English would this be a accurate summery of your recovery story:

During a 17 month period you stayed on a strict paleo diet while following a solid strong fitness/ work out routine. Towards the end of this 17 month period you started a low dose AI that you are curruntly still taking. Also during this time you added in a couple of small cycles of DHT prohormones that had little to know significance in your recovery. As of this time you are 75-100 percent recovered.

I know I probable sound like a broken record. Sorry if I do but the more I know about you and Entropy's situations/stories the better position I'm in to start making decisions and possibly provide any input of my own that may be of assistance for you guys as well. After all it's just about me.

Hi 5, the problem i have with your queries, is that all the info is there on PH on my member story + SHGB questions, it is not correct that i was strictly paleo, and nor was cd or any of the guys i mentioned (mitch, chi, cd and you can add bizzbee333 to that too) I never said i was. I follow a paleo type diet, and the little individual things i have done like the AI at the end are very individual to my needs and my bloods.
I repeat, to recover, read the recovery thread of CD and then the threads from myself, mitch, chi + bizzbee.
Don't follow any of them to the letter, because we are all individual, you must apply research, intelligence and common sense to your recovery plan, tailoring it to your individual circumstances. Take some calculated risks where necessary, but always limiting risk where possible.
The biggest thing is mental recovery, then your body will follow.
Follow the common denominators in those threads, remember CD is not the only one to have ever recovered, there are fucking loads of people who have. The only reason i followed CD in particular - actually Chi in a similar fashion - is because those guys are very intelligent and measured, disciplined and courageous, and they are very similar to my own personality type, so i could believe in them, respect them etc. and thus follow - to an extent - what they did.

Finally, nothing beats learning stuff yourself, i researched for near on 12 months 20hrs a week. I now know a ridiculous amount about diet and exercise, hormonal reactions (in this area i will never know as much as jelisej though), mental recovery techniques etc., the power of belief, i read around 15 books covering these topics, and whilst doing so i worked out like a motherfucker, whilst feeling destroyed most of the time, i swam in the sea whilst everyone else was sleeping, and tens of other things. It's all in the threads mentioned.
Note that i had almost recovered before i ever communicated once with CD.

What i am trying to say, is that you have to take ownership of your own recovery, yes learn from guys like CD, myself, Mitch, Entropy, Chi, but whilst all of us have done similar things, we have still followed our own paths and done stuff that others haven't.
Also, recovery takes proper effort, and you and others have asked me questions about my own recovery and cd's that are covered in previous threads, i mean, it appears you and many others on PH hero worship CD, yet i hear queries about whether i and he were 100% paleo or not, yet i remember word for word how he described his diet - it was "paleo type" and he later described eating corn stuff on carb backloading evenings. Now i've not gone back and read that, i read every word of his thread, same for literally 30 odd others across PH and the web, it took me fucking ages, and i had to read many 3 times because i was so mentally fogged up.
Literally 50 odd guys have asked me queries on all this stuff over the last 17 months and i know CD gets the same. It feels like you all want recovery for free, without learning, without understanding, and without installing belief in yourself.
Get real, this is an extremely challenging condition to recover from, it tests every fibre of your being due its longevity, and to beat it you simply have to gain an understanding of your mind and body, and that does not come from simply copying another's recovery plan to the letter, because that recovery plan has been tailored to their mind and body, not yours - the big things remain the same, yes, but the detail is individual.
Hard work + intelligence + courage + grace + consistency + support + time = recovery.
And in answer to your question, i am 100% recovered, although due to the speed of recovery, my skin is still thickening up, and sensitivity is still returning.
I hope that helps, and i am always pleased to help, but only with questions not already contained in threads that just need reading properly.

I will add one last thing, if i took propecia again today and fell tomorrow, i would be recovered once more within 17 months. Bizzbee did exactly that by the way - the silly fucker recovered 100% then took the pill again and fell again to the condition, stupid as that was he got back on the horse, and the last time i was on PH (a long time ago) he was all but recovered for the second time- after, guess what?- following a very similar recovery plan to Chi, Mitch, CD, Myself, Entropy.
It staggers me that half of the PH crowd spend their time finding reasons why it cannot be recovered from, yet everyone that seriously does what we have done recovers. I spent ages reading stories on PH from guys complaining they hadn't recovered despite doing the CD recovery plan, and a couple of queries later they explained that they binned it after 3 months, or weren't doing one of the cornerstones of the plan or whatever, then they turned into naysayers about how recovery is not possible through a plan.
These people drive me fucking crazy.
After this, my conscience is clear, everything, literally everything you and the others on PH need to know is written up.
Anything not written up, ask me about, i will be very happy to give you my best response, so will CD or Entropy. All of us feel for all of the PH guys, but collectively many guys on there have got into a negative comment spiral, that's why we fucked off, yet we all know there are good guys, bad guys, and middle of the road guys everywhere, including on PH.
Good luck, but if you have it in you, you will not need it.

[English]

I forgot something important regards my recovery - I was gardening today (yard work in the US) and it occurred to me that gardening is as responsible as anything else for my recovery, so is the table tennis league i play in, so are my friends and work colleagues. Taking your mind completely off your issues and on something you like - ie re-engaging with normal life and forgetting you are not 100% and basically not making a big song and dance over illness.
This is definitely something most people on PH do not do. It is very important to not obsess over what chemical or herb you should be taking all the time, when actually a calm mind that is just focusing on life will do 100 times more for you.
That's it from me for a while.

[Cdsnuts]

Spot on English.

In my experience its always the analysis paralysis guys that never get where they're trying to go. They obsess, toil over minutia and waste valuable time collecting information that they never actually put into practice.

[silverstrand]

My biggest hurdle at this time is Sleep. I've been feeling myself coming back online in very subtle ways - ways that reminded me of who I was before all this happened. For instance, I was playing cards on Friday night with a group of guys having a great time. I went all in with two other big stacks on the table and I could feel the rush I got from this. My friend noticed how I was shaking. I was shaking becuase I was so excited/nervous. This is exactly the type of emotion I use to have on the regular before fin and this reaction was so strong this time, I couldn't ignore it.
I do my best to live life in enjoyment but this lack of decent sleep is torturous. I need energy to enjoy life and this is the catch 22. Right now, I'd say half my week is shot due to lack of quality sleep, the other half I feel pretty good actually. I just wish my mind and body would stay alseep for more than 4 hours. A solid 8 hours rest would be so beneficial to recovery but my body just doesn't want to do it.

[Cdsnuts]

My biggest hurdle at this time is Sleep. I've been feeling myself coming back online in very subtle ways - ways that reminded me of who I was before all this happened. For instance, I was playing cards on Friday night with a group of guys having a great time. I went all in with two other big stacks on the table and I could feel the rush I got from this. My friend noticed how I was shaking. I was shaking becuase I was so excited/nervous. This is exactly the type of emotion I use to have on the regular before fin and this reaction was so strong this time, I couldn't ignore it.
I do my best to live life in enjoyment but this lack of decent sleep is torturous. I need energy to enjoy life and this is the catch 22. Right now, I'd say half my week is shot due to lack of quality sleep, the other half I feel pretty good actually. I just wish my mind and body would stay alseep for more than 4 hours. A solid 8 hours rest would be so beneficial to recovery but my body just doesn't want to do it.
Holosync.

[silverstrand]

Holosync.

Thanks CD - I'll look into it. I've checked out a few already on Youtube, the music does seems like it will calm the mind. I think it will take some training for me to get used to it.

I have a quick question for you. I've read you'll be doing your last prohomorone cycle this summer even though I believe you hae been healed now for over 2 years (congrats man seriously!) Do you still feel some benefit from these cycles at this point other than muscle growth? Do you still feel that the cycles are upregulating your 5ar/system or do you think you might be maxed out at this point?

I'm sure you will continue to do the T-booseters - I'm thinking there's really no reason to ever stop those in ones life.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks CD - I'll look into it. I've checked out a few already on Youtube, the music does seems like it will calm the mind. I think it will take some training for me to get used to it.

I have a quick question for you. I've read you'll be doing your last prohomorone cycle this summer even though I believe you hae been healed now for over 2 years (congrats man seriously!) Do you still feel some benefit from these cycles at this point other than muscle growth? Do you still feel that the cycles are upregulating your 5ar/system or do you think you might be maxed out at this point?

I'm sure you will continue to do the T-booseters - I'm thinking there's really no reason to ever stop those in ones life.
At this point, I enjoy cycling the same reason everyone else does. Increased size, performance, etc. When the cycle is over I notice no increases in my baseline as I did years ago.

In regards to holosync, its not the music that does anything but the binaural beats and other audio technology embedded in the sound tracks.

[silverstrand]

At this point, I enjoy cycling the same reason everyone else does. Increased size, performance, etc. When the cycle is over I notice no increases in my baseline as I did years ago.

In regards to holosync, its not the music that does anything but the binaural beats and other audio technology embedded in the sound tracks.

Thats great to hear actually because it shows that our bodies will correct back to their naturally intended state when allowed to heal. My only wish at this point, besides never taking the poison in the first place, is that I started much sooner. I could have saved the better part of my 20's.

I'll definitely do my research on holosync. If this solves the better part of my sleep issues it will be worth it!

[Cdsnuts]

Thats great to hear actually because it shows that our bodies will correct back to their naturally intended state when allowed to heal. My only wish at this point, besides never taking the poison in the first place, is that I started much sooner. I could have saved the better part of my 20's.

I'll definitely do my research on holosync. If this solves the better part of my sleep issues it will be worth it!
It is what it is. Look forward, not back. You cant do anything about the past. You only have control of the present.

The holosync will work.

[silverstrand]

It is what it is. Look forward, not back. You cant do anything about the past. You only have control of the present.

The holosync will work.

I hear you. Thanks man!

[English]

My biggest hurdle at this time is Sleep. I've been feeling myself coming back online in very subtle ways - ways that reminded me of who I was before all this happened. For instance, I was playing cards on Friday night with a group of guys having a great time. I went all in with two other big stacks on the table and I could feel the rush I got from this. My friend noticed how I was shaking. I was shaking becuase I was so excited/nervous. This is exactly the type of emotion I use to have on the regular before fin and this reaction was so strong this time, I couldn't ignore it.
I do my best to live life in enjoyment but this lack of decent sleep is torturous. I need energy to enjoy life and this is the catch 22. Right now, I'd say half my week is shot due to lack of quality sleep, the other half I feel pretty good actually. I just wish my mind and body would stay alseep for more than 4 hours. A solid 8 hours rest would be so beneficial to recovery but my body just doesn't want to do it.

As CD says, holosync, i use that too and they have a sleep suite which helps your brain into the Delta 90 minute pattern, but you will need to buy the sleep headphones with it.
Also, read "my very easy sleep method" by Sasha Stevens. I seem to recall this was another CD spot, and it helped me out no-end. Take no meds for sleep whatsoever.
The most important thing to do is think "so what" if you don't sleep like you want to, then you start to - it's weird. Also, as your condition improves your sleep improves alongside it.
For me sleeping was also a big issue. I get 5 to 7 hours a night now which to be fair was what i got pre-fin.
I would be very surprised if Holosync does not get you to sleep, and you can just put it on again if you wake up and can't back to sleep within say 30 minutes. The beauty with Holosync is that even if you are not sleeping, the meditational effect offers similar if not greater benefits, so not sleeping becomes less stressful, which results in more sleep. Like almost all things in life, insomnia is largely a mental thing.

[hossam]

i use a new approach for sleeping:
2 drops of Castor oil around my eyes and on my scalp will
help me sleep deeply no matter what cycle i am on!
around the eyes to help me sleep and on my scalp to regrow hair
i use this brand
Home Health Castor Oil Cold Pressed
(http://www.amazon.com/Home-Health-Castor-Pressed-Processed/dp/B0002JG2NI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1428401750&sr=8-2&keywords=castor+oil)
as it doesn't have any smell and cost effective

[Crank92]

Silverstrand, sorry to be blunt but you are experimenting with some serious shit without having any idea of your current hormonal situation, sufferers of this condition often think this or that about their hormones, get tested and find the opposite of what they thought the results would be. I know of many guys with high T, high DHT and normal E and yet they impotent and suffer with low androgen symptoms- this is the post fin condition sadly.
If i were you i would get off the DHT and all pharma for a few months, concentrate on diet, exercise and your mental state and then get bloods done. It is relatively easy to manipulate your bloods but you really need to know the position from which you are manipulating in the first place.
As an example, 5 blood tests over my first year of suffering showed my androgen levels were in the toilet, but my last 2 bloods have shown T at 28 and 24, (800 and 700) E at around 40 nmol/L and SHBG at 36, and i got them there through diet, exercise and extremely low dose of AI. I could achieve this because i told the guys here my bloods. Jelisej advised me and i reacted accordingly.
You are shooting in the dark and given how easy it is to get your bloods done, surely you should see where you are at. If you keep diet and exercise solid and get off all pharma etc. for 3 months, like many guys with this issue, you may well already have naturally high T and DHT yet still feel shit, and this is often the way. In this situation you just have to keep positive, and keep the exercise and diet consistent and over time you will improve, and yes, i see you have been suffering for almost 10 years, but from what you wrote, you have only just got serious about exercise and nutrition yes? I expect that you are retaining muscle better as a result of your recent diet and exercise and potential upregulation of AR receptors etc. not the DHT which is not particularly androgenic in relation to muscle building.
My bloods look great, but i am still not feeling optimally healthy. It sucks but such is the condition, sometimes shit just takes time to work it's way through.
I hope you don't think i am ripping into your methodology unduly. I am one of the most positive guys there is when it comes to recovering from this condition, but to get recovered, it takes both positivity, but also a considered approach. After so long i want to see you recover as you clearly have the will to do it. I just want the best for you, so hopefully i have given you some more information from someone who has all but recovered.
By the way, just to add weight to what i am saying. A friend of mine decided to do follow the same plan as me, virtually at the same time, we both left Propecia Help because it was so negative, he is all but recovered too now. Neither of us owe our recoveries to DHT or derivitives, however both of us are now cycling with them, but just to optimise. Both of us know our blood conditions through testing.
Just sayin.
All the very best of luck to you in whatever you decide.


Hi English and others,

I'm a 5AR victim too, although not via fin but Accutane.

I crashed on 1st Jan 2013 and have been left in a pretty bad state. I recovered from the psychological issues (anhedonia mainly), but sexual issues persevere and are worsening.

However, even prior to taking Accutane I was living healthy. I have been eating paleo for about 5 years. I weight train 3-4x/week with a focus on large compound movements, mainly squat and deadlift variations. I also compete in MMA so HIIT is incorporated extensively prior to competing.

My T levels have doubled, now up at top of range 26.8 (I forget the the units) on a scale of 8-28. Yet I still suffer.

I'm thinking of playing around with some pharmaceuticals considering my lack of luck with the more holistic route. I'm thinking AI's. Any thoughts?

Of note, tribulus and creatine in high doses make my symptoms worse.

I would be very interested in hearing others inputs, as I am a bit lost as what to do now.

[Cdsnuts]

Hi English and others,

I'm a 5AR victim too, although not via fin but Accutane.

I crashed on 1st Jan 2013 and have been left in a pretty bad state. I recovered from the psychological issues (anhedonia mainly), but sexual issues persevere and are worsening.

However, even prior to taking Accutane I was living healthy. I have been eating paleo for about 5 years. I weight train 3-4x/week with a focus on large compound movements, mainly squat and deadlift variations. I also compete in MMA so HIIT is incorporated extensively prior to competing.

My T levels have doubled, now up at top of range 26.8 (I forget the the units) on a scale of 8-28. Yet I still suffer.

I'm thinking of playing around with some pharmaceuticals considering my lack of luck with the more holistic route. I'm thinking AI's. Any thoughts?

Of note, tribulus and creatine in high doses make my symptoms worse.

I would be very interested in hearing others inputs, as I am a bit lost as what to do now.

It's preferable to start a new thread of your own rather then hijack someone else s.

[silverstrand]

i use a new approach for sleeping:
2 drops of Castor oil around my eyes and on my scalp will
help me sleep deeply no matter what cycle i am on!
around the eyes to help me sleep and on my scalp to regrow hair
i use this brand
Home Health Castor Oil Cold Pressed
(http://www.amazon.com/Home-Health-Castor-Pressed-Processed/dp/B0002JG2NI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1428401750&sr=8-2&keywords=castor+oil)
as it doesn't have any smell and cost effective

I'll look into this as well - thanks Hossam. I remember reading Castor Oil will suppress DHT so I will need to research it before I give it a honest go. BTW, I noticed your post on bulbine natalensis. This does look to be a very promissing herbal test booster - however, I'm not sure how it will affect DHT levels. I've read a few articles on it and it seems like a great addition to my PCT herbs.

CD, have you ever looked in cycling bulbine natalensis?

[Cdsnuts]

I'll look into this as well - thanks Hossam. I remember reading Castor Oil will suppress DHT so I will need to research it before I give it a honest go. BTW, I noticed your post on bulbine natalensis. This does look to be a very promissing herbal test booster - however, I'm not sure how it will affect DHT levels. I've read a few articles on it and it seems like a great addition to my PCT herbs.

CD, have you ever looked in cycling bulbine natalensis?

I've heard of it before, but have not researched it myself.

[English]

Hi English and others,

I'm a 5AR victim too, although not via fin but Accutane.

I crashed on 1st Jan 2013 and have been left in a pretty bad state. I recovered from the psychological issues (anhedonia mainly), but sexual issues persevere and are worsening.

However, even prior to taking Accutane I was living healthy. I have been eating paleo for about 5 years. I weight train 3-4x/week with a focus on large compound movements, mainly squat and deadlift variations. I also compete in MMA so HIIT is incorporated extensively prior to competing.

My T levels have doubled, now up at top of range 26.8 (I forget the the units) on a scale of 8-28. Yet I still suffer.

I'm thinking of playing around with some pharmaceuticals considering my lack of luck with the more holistic route. I'm thinking AI's. Any thoughts?

Of note, tribulus and creatine in high doses make my symptoms worse.

I would be very interested in hearing others inputs, as I am a bit lost as what to do now.

High T means nothing if your SHBG is very high, do you know what it is, and thus what your free androgen is?

If your free androgen is good, then that is just the first piece of the jigsaw, the rest is true mental recovery and time. I suspect you think you are mentally recovered, but you are not. There is a big difference between not suffering from anxiety anymore and properly laughing at stuff during the day, making jokes and being free and easy with life and yourself - carefree if you like. If you are already like that then i will be amazed your sexual issues persist and i have nothing to offer. I would bet alot that you are not though - is it easy to get like that, no, there are alot of layers to peal back - start with holosync.
No point whatsoever in using AI if your free androgen is good and your E is not high. Work on properly freeing your soul, and give it time, you might need 5 years of doing all the right things, many do.
CD's correct about you starting your own thread, good luck though.

[tallstraw]

We need a subsection. That way everyone can detail there journey, and bounce shit off each other..but that stuff has gotta stay there. I've already seen a new member, maybe 2 in the past 2 days..only because of this stuff. You were righ guys...FACK!

[silverstrand]

We need a subsection. That way everyone can detail there journey, and bounce shit off each other..but that stuff has gotta stay there. I've already seen a new member, maybe 2 in the past 2 days..only because of this stuff. You were righ guys...FACK!

I wont be blowing this forum up with DHT related topics; I can't comment about others. I pretty much feel that I finally have a clear understanding of the mechanics of what went wrong and I know what I will be doing over the next several months.
Additionally, I joined this forum over a year ago without making many posts; only recently have I begun actively participating in discussions. I find many of the other topics on this forum interesting and beneficial. I plan to contribute as much as I seek out.

[silverstrand]

Hi English and others,

I'm a 5AR victim too, although not via fin but Accutane.

I crashed on 1st Jan 2013 and have been left in a pretty bad state. I recovered from the psychological issues (anhedonia mainly), but sexual issues persevere and are worsening.

However, even prior to taking Accutane I was living healthy. I have been eating paleo for about 5 years. I weight train 3-4x/week with a focus on large compound movements, mainly squat and deadlift variations. I also compete in MMA so HIIT is incorporated extensively prior to competing.

My T levels have doubled, now up at top of range 26.8 (I forget the the units) on a scale of 8-28. Yet I still suffer.

I'm thinking of playing around with some pharmaceuticals considering my lack of luck with the more holistic route. I'm thinking AI's. Any thoughts?

Of note, tribulus and creatine in high doses make my symptoms worse.

I would be very interested in hearing others inputs, as I am a bit lost as what to do now.

Hi Crank92,

I took this quote from wiki:
"Isotretinoin's exact mechanism of action is unknown, but several studies have shown that isotretinoin induces apoptosis (cell death) in various cells in the body. Cell death may be instigated in the meibomian glands,[53][54] hypothalamic cells,[55] hippocampus cells[56][57] and—important for treatment of acne—in sebaceous gland cells.[58][59] Isotretinoin has a low affinity for retinoic acid receptors (RAR) and retinoid X receptors (RXR), but may be converted intracellularly to metabolites that act as agonists of RAR and RXR nuclear receptors.[4]"

My best advice is to study the mechanism in which accutane affected your body. Then learn about the feedbackloops it disrupted. From there, you might be able to come up with a protocol to reverse your symptoms. Myself, English, CDsnuts are more studied on Fin and 5a blockers. You'll need to become your own expert on Accutane and find others who have solved this problem.

BTW, since Accutane can cause cell death in organs like the Hypothalamus, the starting point for most/all hormones, you might want to take a look at Glandulars. Sometimes your body is able to use ingested organs of other animals for repair. This may or may not help but its another tool in your tool box now.

[silverstrand]

Hey man that andracim or however it's spelled is it Prescription only or ??? Interested in the direct dht..? U like it? Experiences?

I thought this would benefit everyone.

Hi Bam24,

It is prescription only but if you buy abroad, they don’t ask. So far it has hardened my muscles without working out all that much as I'm having trouble sleeping and lack the energy. The thing to note about it Andractim is it will lower your T4 which will result in lowered T3. I can tell because my body temperature goes down for a short time after dosing. I run a full dose in the morning and to not suppress my thyroid hormones, I found out its best not to dose throughout the day. Additionally, to offset the reduction in T4 and T3, I take 100 mcg of T4 and 25 mcg of T3 upon dosing. This seems to help and after 2 hours my hands are warm again and throughout the day.
As far as liking Andractim, I believe it’s working differently for me than it would for others. For instance, my body is Estrogen dominant at this point so much of it is being bound to SHBG and excreted with urine. I find the initial sexual bump I get from it to go immediately after my first piss post dose.
I will say, that if I ever wanted to run a DHT compound in a cycle with other AAS, I would run this instead of Masterone or Proviron. It just seems way more natural and I believe it is none suppressive to HPTA at the levels I'm using it - I have theories on this but I suggest you do some research. The reports support limited to no suppression on HPTA. The only suppression I believe would come from Test to estrogen and that negative feedback loop becuase your DHT production will be temporarily slowed - so a mild AI would be optimal as well if running test. It’s not without side effects as I mentioned T4 and T3 but these seems mild and revert back almost right away (few hours) for me at least. If I ran it in a cycle, I'd apply after my workout and quick shower.
BTW, application is kind of a bitch. You have to do it everyday and I use condoms on two fingers to rub onto the body, gloves work too but I had non-lubricated condoms at the time so that’s what I used and stuck with. You don’t want this on your hands, it will make them feel really stiff.

[entropy]

I thought this would benefit everyone.

Hi Bam24,

It is prescription only but if you buy abroad, they don’t ask. So far it has hardened my muscles without working out all that much as I'm having trouble sleeping and lack the energy. The thing to note about it Andractim is it will lower your T4 which will result in lowered T3. I can tell because my body temperature goes down for a short time after dosing. I run a full dose in the morning and to not suppress my thyroid hormones, I found out its best not to dose throughout the day. Additionally, to offset the reduction in T4 and T3, I take 100 mcg of T4 and 25 mcg of T3 upon dosing. This seems to help and after 2 hours my hands are warm again and throughout the day.
As far as liking Andractim, I believe it’s working differently for me than it would for others. For instance, my body is Estrogen dominant at this point so much of it is being bound to SHBG and excreted with urine. I find the initial sexual bump I get from it to go immediately after my first piss post dose.
I will say, that if I ever wanted to run a DHT compound in a cycle with other AAS, I would run this instead of Masterone or Proviron. It just seems way more natural and I believe it is none suppressive to HPTA at the levels I'm using it - I have theories on this but I suggest you do some research. The reports support limited to no suppression on HPTA. The only suppression I believe would come from Test to estrogen and that negative feedback loop becuase your DHT production will be temporarily slowed - so a mild AI would be optimal as well if running test. It’s not without side effects as I mentioned T4 and T3 but these seems mild and revert back almost right away (few hours) for me at least. If I ran it in a cycle, I'd apply after my workout and quick shower.
BTW, application is kind of a bitch. You have to do it everyday and I use condoms on two fingers to rub onto the body, gloves work too but I had non-lubricated condoms at the time so that’s what I used and stuck with. You don’t want this on your hands, it will make them feel really stiff.

Dude do you have bloodwork to back up the need for thyroid hormone supplementation? Tbh we're all pretty clued up on dht and what it does here and I've never heard anything about thyroid hormone suppression. Do you have sources?

[BBG]

To think that after you piss that you're losing a bunch of hormone and reducing your sex drive makes literally no sense lol

[nate3993]

^^

[Freepressright]

To think that after you piss that you're losing a bunch of hormone and reducing your sex drive makes literally no sense lol

I pee to help alleviate morning wood, does that count? :D

[silverstrand]

Dude do you have bloodwork to back up the need for thyroid hormone supplementation? Tbh we're all pretty clued up on dht and what it does here and I've never heard anything about thyroid hormone suppression. Do you have sources?

It says it right on the insert of the box the tube comes in - it specifically says can suppress T4 but "shouldn't" affect overall free T4 in the body but I know in my case that it does. T4 drops, then so does my T3.

Also, from my research, supplimentation of T3 and T4 within normal levels does not disrupt the Thyroid Feedback Loop like AAS can do to HPTA. If anyone else can point out where this might not be the case, please let me know and I'll research further. I belive for us Post Fin guys it actually might be beneficial. For instance, if my Thyroid hormones drop, the metabolic rate of evey cell in my body slows - well, when I add my DHT, I want the hormone to activate the AR receptors and get everything running, it cant do that is my metabolism has the breaks on.

BTW, I believe this is specific to Andractim and not DHT Prohormones like AndroHard. When I take AndroHard, I dont take any Thyroid hormones, there's no need. Also I dont believe bloodwork would be useful in this case, we aren't talking about permanent suppression, just temporary, a few hours at best.

[silverstrand]

To think that after you piss that you're losing a bunch of hormone and reducing your sex drive makes literally no sense lol

It sounds out there but I have my thoughts on how hormones work in the male body (not all of them ofcourse but many have parallels I would imagine) - nature very much rhymes; these are theories really but they make total sense to me.
Last night, I had my first incredibly strong morning woood in over 10 years. I had to piss for it to subside. Only issue was I woke up to it much to early, after only 4 hours of sleep. So my sleep issues are still there. I belive my androgen depravation over the years has messed my brain function up so it will be several months/maybe longer before it gets corrected.
Not sure if all of you know this, but the male mind is generally bigger than the females and this is attributed to androgens like testosterone. We appearantly have more gray matter than females. Also, we have more empathy than females because the area of our minds for these emotions are larger too. Its funny how women are scene as the more empathetic half of humanity when really its men. We are probably also the most creative and destructive half as well so whatever - I just want to F... chicks all day long and be happy.

[5 alpha victim]

Hi 5, the problem i have with your queries, is that all the info is there on PH on my member story + SHGB questions, it is not correct that i was strictly paleo, and nor was cd or any of the guys i mentioned (mitch, chi, cd and you can add bizzbee333 to that too) I never said i was. I follow a paleo type diet, and the little individual things i have done like the AI at the end are very individual to my needs and my bloods.
I repeat, to recover, read the recovery thread of CD and then the threads from myself, mitch, chi + bizzbee.
Don't follow any of them to the letter, because we are all individual, you must apply research, intelligence and common sense to your recovery plan, tailoring it to your individual circumstances. Take some calculated risks where necessary, but always limiting risk where possible.
The biggest thing is mental recovery, then your body will follow.
Follow the common denominators in those threads, remember CD is not the only one to have ever recovered, there are fucking loads of people who have. The only reason i followed CD in particular - actually Chi in a similar fashion - is because those guys are very intelligent and measured, disciplined and courageous, and they are very similar to my own personality type, so i could believe in them, respect them etc. and thus follow - to an extent - what they did.

Finally, nothing beats learning stuff yourself, i researched for near on 12 months 20hrs a week. I now know a ridiculous amount about diet and exercise, hormonal reactions (in this area i will never know as much as jelisej though), mental recovery techniques etc., the power of belief, i read around 15 books covering these topics, and whilst doing so i worked out like a motherfucker, whilst feeling destroyed most of the time, i swam in the sea whilst everyone else was sleeping, and tens of other things. It's all in the threads mentioned.
Note that i had almost recovered before i ever communicated once with CD.

What i am trying to say, is that you have to take ownership of your own recovery, yes learn from guys like CD, myself, Mitch, Entropy, Chi, but whilst all of us have done similar things, we have still followed our own paths and done stuff that others haven't.
Also, recovery takes proper effort, and you and others have asked me questions about my own recovery and cd's that are covered in previous threads, i mean, it appears you and many others on PH hero worship CD, yet i hear queries about whether i and he were 100% paleo or not, yet i remember word for word how he described his diet - it was "paleo type" and he later described eating corn stuff on carb backloading evenings. Now i've not gone back and read that, i read every word of his thread, same for literally 30 odd others across PH and the web, it took me fucking ages, and i had to read many 3 times because i was so mentally fogged up.
Literally 50 odd guys have asked me queries on all this stuff over the last 17 months and i know CD gets the same. It feels like you all want recovery for free, without learning, without understanding, and without installing belief in yourself.
Get real, this is an extremely challenging condition to recover from, it tests every fibre of your being due its longevity, and to beat it you simply have to gain an understanding of your mind and body, and that does not come from simply copying another's recovery plan to the letter, because that recovery plan has been tailored to their mind and body, not yours - the big things remain the same, yes, but the detail is individual.
Hard work + intelligence + courage + grace + consistency + support + time = recovery.
And in answer to your question, i am 100% recovered, although due to the speed of recovery, my skin is still thickening up, and sensitivity is still returning.
I hope that helps, and i am always pleased to help, but only with questions not already contained in threads that just need reading properly.

I will add one last thing, if i took propecia again today and fell tomorrow, i would be recovered once more within 17 months. Bizzbee did exactly that by the way - the silly fucker recovered 100% then took the pill again and fell again to the condition, stupid as that was he got back on the horse, and the last time i was on PH (a long time ago) he was all but recovered for the second time- after, guess what?- following a very similar recovery plan to Chi, Mitch, CD, Myself, Entropy.
It staggers me that half of the PH crowd spend their time finding reasons why it cannot be recovered from, yet everyone that seriously does what we have done recovers. I spent ages reading stories on PH from guys complaining they hadn't recovered despite doing the CD recovery plan, and a couple of queries later they explained that they binned it after 3 months, or weren't doing one of the cornerstones of the plan or whatever, then they turned into naysayers about how recovery is not possible through a plan.
These people drive me fucking crazy.
After this, my conscience is clear, everything, literally everything you and the others on PH need to know is written up.
Anything not written up, ask me about, i will be very happy to give you my best response, so will CD or Entropy. All of us feel for all of the PH guys, but collectively many guys on there have got into a negative comment spiral, that's why we fucked off, yet we all know there are good guys, bad guys, and middle of the road guys everywhere, including on PH.
Good luck, but if you have it in you, you will not need it.


Sorry for the late response, I got really busy with other stuff for the last few days.

"The biggest thing is mental recovery, then your body will follow"

I agree that your state of mind is a huge factor when recovering from anything this severe and traumatic. With that said mentally I am fine. I have "adapted to my environment" a long time ago. I am not content, happy or normal which is why I always look for new and improved ways to recover but I'm adapted. For me the trick is keeping my mind occupied with work and anything that is far away from a social life. Going out and being around friends, girls ect... For me these things remind me of what I can't have and put me in a really dark place so I stay away from this. Working 65 hours a week helps keep my mind occupied and when I'm not doing that I'm recovering... Sleeping, working out, researching. Some of this may sound like screwed up psychology for others but it works for me.

"It appears you and many others on PH hero worship CD, yet i hear queries about whether i and he were 100% paleo or not

I don't worship anything other than a higher power. Using the word worship is just a little over the top. I made my first post saying that I found the living legend thinking that it was a j/k and that everyone would get a kick out of it. lots of ego on these forums so sometimes it's not that easy.

I do however "look up"to CD for the simple fact that he was mentally tough enough to do three 21 day water fasts, one 14 day water fast and a forty something day juice feast. He was also the guy to come up with the most logical and intelligent recovery protocol ever to posted on PH. I also respect the fact that he is not crazy about the idea of discussing it as it reminds him of the dark days. That thought alone makes me believe that he got hit hard by this but yet was still able to recover.

Man after a seven day juice fast and going down to 179 pounds, I think about how painful it must have been going 47 days. A juice feast has the individual drinking more juice than a juice fast but it's still just unbelievable.

"yet i remember word for word how he described his diet - it was "paleo type"

"and he later described eating corn stuff carb back loading evenings".

I actually recall CD making it pretty clear that he was sticking to a pretty solid paleo diet during a solid chunk of his recovery and that he did not actually incorporate carb back loading into his lifestyle until after he was recovered.

Also keep in mind eating in a manner in which is "paleo type" is hard to interpret in the regard that it is very subjective. For example I'm eating nothing right now other than raw fruits, Veggies and meat. However I still eat my chicken and steak with BBQ sauce that contains preservatives. So technically eating a real paleo diet limits you to only eating what the cave men had available which would obviously not include preservatives. The paleo diet more recently has evolved to include many things that go beyond "the cave man diet". With that said I believe my questions are pretty reasonable.

Anyway the fact is that the version of the paleo diet that I'm eating is working for me so far. I have had major improvements with my digestive system with eating this strict of a paleo diet. Taking carb back loading out of the equation has helped with my digestive system as well. Goes to show how messed up you can get from having this unusual reaction to a DHT inhibiter and how well eating paleo is digested by the body. I have to consider that maybe we really are made to eat like the cavemen!

"the little individual things i have done like the AI at the end are very individual to my needs and my bloods"

I'm glad you explained it like that. That logic actually gave me a couple of new ideas. I feel like my biggest individual needs right now is not getting shut down after all the work I did with my Clomid restart. Therefor I'm going to rotate the natural T boosting herbs before, during and after my andro300 cycle. I'm going to rotate the herbs during my pct. I'm going to give my body everything it needs and than some to not let my T levels crash. If body builders use HCG while on cycle than I don't see how this is a bad idea, it's comparing apples and oranges but the same concept applies.

"Finally, nothing beats learning stuff yourself, i researched for near on 12 months 20hrs a week"

Agreed and I can promise you that I have put my time in as well. My questions although maybe coming across as "nube like" in nature are more for investigatory purposes rather than learning this information for my first time.

"It feels like you all want recovery for free, without learning, without understanding, and without installing belief in yourself"

"Get real, this is an extremely challenging condition to recover from"

I like your advice. If I did not I would not be reaching out to you. But it appears that you are assuming some things about me based on nothing really other than a screen name. I'm good at taking advice and at giving it. It's important for everyone in life when it comes to everything to not let their ego control emotions. I'm not trying to attack here, but it appears you are being just a little over sensitive to honest and fair questions.

It's unreasonable to expect everyone to comprehend everything they read at all times on Internet forums that go in a thousand different directions discussing thousands of different topics.

"following a very similar recovery plan to Chi, Mitch, CD, Myself, Entropy.

I am in the progress of coming up with my own protocol that's based off of everything you guys did but with some changes that I believe will fit a little better into my own personal set of circumstances like you advised.

One of the things that has became clear to me is that the incorporation of the rotation of herbs into my protocol can do more than just help my natty T levels continue to recover after using a PCT following a DHT pro hormone cycle.

I'm considering rotating three different sets of herbs that address the major issues most people face after having their systems altered by a DHT inhibiter. Natty T boosting, insomnia, digestion and improving general nutrition. This way you are recovering while addressing and treating all of the symptoms opposed to just one and at the same time and you are still only taking a small amount of herbs per day. Best of all the Herbs from SMH's address all three of these issues. Some herbs address two or three of these issues all in one herb so coming up with this type of a protocol using these herbs is very possible.

Seeing that this screen name is unpopular and it appears that the only way to fix it is by deleting my account and making a new one I have decided to delete the account and come back in a year or two when I'm recovered. I seen your post on the other thread about how you are not enjoying your time here anymore. Even though I feel this is being a little overly dramatic I also feel partially responsible. Besides I have got all the info from this site that I need for now anyway regarding treating this issue. So staying here and contributing to making a member not enjoy their time here at the same time not making any more solid progress with information gathering does not make any sense.

"And in answer to your question, i am 100% recovered,"

Congratulations, I think that is awesome and hopefully I'll see you around on this forum sometime down the road. If I end up keeping the account it's just to lurk for the purpose of getting more info that may be of use to me but I will not actually post on any threads.

Take care,
5 alpha





.

[silverstrand]

Hi 5 Alpha,

Out of respect, I took the time to read your whole post. I believe the discussion has moved away from idea based exchanges to more personalized responses. I'd like to stick with ideas.
I do believe herbal rotation while taking a DHT compound may have its benefits. I believe CD is against it but I dont really see an issue with it except, I do believe estrogen needs to be controlled.

[Cdsnuts]

Hi 5 Alpha,

Out of respect, I took the time to read your whole post. I believe the discussion has moved away from idea based exchanges to more personalized responses. I'd like to stick with ideas.
I do believe herbal rotation while taking a DHT compound may have its benefits. I believe CD is against it but I dont really see an issue with it except, I do believe estrogen needs to be controlled.

It makes no sense to cycle the herbs with an exogenous hormone, at all. You need to run the hormone for a consistent period of time to reap the benefits the hormone provides. By taking it one day then jumping on to the next thing you've pretty much accomplished nothing besides wasting it.

[silverstrand]

You need to run the hormone for a consistent period of time to reap the benefits the hormone provides. By taking it one day then jumping on to the next thing you've pretty much accomplished nothing besides wasting it.

What specifically are you talking about here? I was refering to cycling T-boosting herbs while running a DHT compound. That is what 5-Alpha was wondering. I believe what you are telling me is cycling DHT compounds doesn't makes much sense, is that right?

[entropy]

Hi 5 Alpha,

Out of respect, I took the time to read your whole post. I believe the discussion has moved away from idea based exchanges to more personalized responses. I'd like to stick with ideas.
I do believe herbal rotation while taking a DHT compound may have its benefits. I believe CD is against it but I dont really see an issue with it except, I do believe estrogen needs to be controlled.

Using herbs that bolster and optimise your endocrine system whilst your endocrine system is suppressed by exogenous hormones holds no benefit IMO.

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Hi 5 Alpha,

Out of respect, I took the time to read your whole post. I believe the discussion has moved away from idea based exchanges to more personalized responses. I'd like to stick with ideas.
I do believe herbal rotation while taking a DHT compound may have its benefits. I believe CD is against it but I dont really see an issue with it except, I do believe estrogen needs to be controlled.

Using herbs that bolster and optimise your endocrine system whilst your endocrine system is suppressed by exogenous hormones holds no benefit IMO.

[Cdsnuts]

What specifically are you talking about here? I was refering to cycling T-boosting herbs while running a DHT compound. That is what 5-Alpha was wondering. I believe what you are telling me is cycling DHT compounds doesn't makes much sense, is that right?

It makes no sense to use DHT the way he plans on using it.

[pman42]

Good thread.

FWIW, I noticed way more benefit to applying testosterone to my balls than I did to applying Andractim (although I was applying the Andractim to the chest). The Andractim seems to have a carrier that sits on top of the skin. hours later I could still feel it. Axiron has a much better carrier that absorbs quick and leaves very little film. As an added bonus, the cup applicator Axiron comes with (designed to apply to the underarms) works perfectly as a ball dip container.

[5 alpha victim]

I used Axiron for the short time I attempted TRT. Used it for four months at max prescribed dose. Only moved my total T up into the 600's so I did not think it was worth it.

I feel this way even more so now that I know about cycling natty T boosting herbs. I feel I can reach levels close to that naturally.

LoL on the ball dipping cover with Axiron. I can't say I did not try the same shit.

[Enuke65]

What's wrong with T levels in the 600's? Especially if it's pharm grade and prescribed?

[5 alpha victim]

Short answere there is nothing wrong with that.

Long answere I did not feel it was worth being dependent on prescription Testosterone forever (or for the long run) or dealing with funding the cost to fill the prescription every month. Also the endo who prescribed me it was anti HCG so I figured the gonads would start shrinking eventually with out that. Even if I could get the HCG from him now I'm on two diff types of Meds at all times. And all for average range levels that did next to nothing for me in the gym.

But also keep in mind I'm one of those DHT inhibitor people so I'm sure not having the most optimal response to the average ranged T could also be contributed to that as well.

This may sound stupid but the "marketing scheme" Axiron used left a bad taste in my mouth. I remember Axiron giving me a card that covered the portion my Insurance would not cover for the first year only. The way I take that is they get your body dependent upon it for the first year than your on your own with paying what your insurance won't cover. Smart for them...

I mean lets face it how many guys go on TRT for a year and stop. Prob not many.

My goal is to reach the 500's with herb cycling. It's a way to out smart "the system" if you will. Seeing that I don't have primary hypogonadism and my nuts still work I feel that if I "feed" them properly I'll produce average T levels naturally.

[English]

Short answere there is nothing wrong with that.

Long answere I did not feel it was worth being dependent on prescription Testosterone forever (or for the long run) or dealing with funding the cost to fill the prescription every month. Also the endo who prescribed me it was anti HCG so I figured the gonads would start shrinking eventually with out that. Even if I could get the HCG from him now I'm on two diff types of Meds at all times. And all for average range levels that did next to nothing for me in the gym.

But also keep in mind I'm one of those DHT inhibitor people so I'm sure not having the most optimal response to the average ranged T could also be contributed to that as well.

This may sound stupid but the "marketing scheme" Axiron used left a bad taste in my mouth. I remember Axiron giving me a card that covered the portion my Insurance would not cover for the first year only. The way I take that is they get your body dependent upon it for the first year than your on your own with paying what your insurance won't cover. Smart for them...

I mean lets face it how many guys go on TRT for a year and stop. Prob not many.

My goal is to reach the 500's with herb cycling. It's a way to out smart "the system" if you will. Seeing that I don't have primary hypogonadism and my nuts still work I feel that if I "feed" them properly I'll produce average T levels naturally.

5 alpha, your target is too low, you can achieve way more than 500 naturally if you do most things right. I applaud you for getting off the gear though. I had post fin issues, same as you. I tested around 300 for nearly a year, once a little under i think. Six months later i was testing at around 850 without any chemical support: High fat high quality diet, plymetrics, calisthetics, sleep, cold showers, explosive competitive sport and mindset, achievement, strong friendships, strong family, enjoyable goal driven project, normal thoughts, calm mind, relaxing holidays, meditation. That is how to do it. Be a go getting motherfucker who's in charge all of the time, but is not scared to relax, love and protect. Be like this and people respect you, look up to you, seek your advice, and suddenly you feel worthy, you're a proper guy again and that ultimatley is the feeling that creates high T and high receptivity to T. You can do all the chemicals in the world, best diet, great exercise, but without feeling worthy, and then feeling like a boss, you will not get high T. You have to convince yourself via constant positive thoughts and achievements and by concentrating on the other areas i listed. The moment you are in this mindset allied to positive actions and diet etc. your body will have no choice but to give you alpha male T numbers. Not that this is important to me anymore as it is how i feel that is important to me, not T numbers, but i gave final bloods last week in order to remove myself from endo supervision which i was put on over a year ago (i ignored everything the fucking idiot had advised me by the way) T number was 910, shbg 33. I'm 41. I rotate some T boosting herbs, the rest is as described. My point is throw your shitty target of 500 out of the window, you can be whatever you want to be, if you aim for a below average 500, then you will stay Beta, nothing wrong with that BTW, but you can be Alpha if you want. I've been both over the last 2 years, Alpha is way better IMO.

[Cdsnuts]

5 alpha, your target is too low, you can achieve way more than 500 naturally if you do most things right. I applaud you for getting off the gear though. I had post fin issues, same as you. I tested around 300 for nearly a year, once a little under i think. Six months later i was testing at around 850 without any chemical support: High fat high quality diet, plymetrics, calisthetics, sleep, cold showers, explosive competitive sport and mindset, achievement, strong friendships, strong family, enjoyable goal driven project, normal thoughts, calm mind, relaxing holidays, meditation. That is how to do it. Be a go getting motherfucker who's in charge all of the time, but is not scared to relax, love and protect. Be like this and people respect you, look up to you, seek your advice, and suddenly you feel worthy, you're a proper guy again and that ultimatley is the feeling that creates high T and high receptivity to T. You can do all the chemicals in the world, best diet, great exercise, but without feeling worthy, and then feeling like a boss, you will not get high T. You have to convince yourself via constant positive thoughts and achievements and by concentrating on the other areas i listed. The moment you are in this mindset allied to positive actions and diet etc. your body will have no choice but to give you alpha male T numbers. Not that this is important to me anymore as it is how i feel that is important to me, not T numbers, but i gave final bloods last week in order to remove myself from endo supervision which i was put on over a year ago (i ignored everything the fucking idiot had advised me by the way) T number was 910, shbg 33. I'm 41. I rotate some T boosting herbs, the rest is as described. My point is throw your shitty target of 500 out of the window, you can be whatever you want to be, if you aim for a below average 500, then you will stay Beta, nothing wrong with that BTW, but you can be Alpha if you want. I've been both over the last 2 years, Alpha is way better IMO.

Awesome natty numbers English. Very impressive. It just goes to show you what you can achieve when you subscribe to particular lifestyle changes and stay CONSISTENT over time. Great numbers.

The cold shower thing is something that I've been meaning to experiment with, but haven't yet. What benefits do you personally feel from doing this? It's another tool I want to add to the tool box, because when it comes to increasing and then keeping high natty T levels, you can never have enough weapons in the arsenal.

[English]

Awesome natty numbers English. Very impressive. It just goes to show you what you can achieve when you subscribe to particular lifestyle changes and stay CONSISTENT over time. Great numbers.

The cold shower thing is something that I've been meaning to experiment with, but haven't yet. What benefits do you personally feel from doing this? It's another tool I want to add to the tool box, because when it comes to increasing and then keeping high natty T levels, you can never have enough weapons in the arsenal.

Thanks CD, although i tried real hard to stop myself from calling the surgery and getting those blood numbers!! Too curious in the end, but i've not repeated them to anyone close to me as part of moving on from the once obsession over T numbers. Happy with them of course, but that will certainly be the last time.

Re Showers, i've read alot about the benefits of fat burning and brown fat cell creation/activation, also immune system benefits. No way of measuring that stuff, all i know is that i feel plugged in to the day way more if i cold shower in the morning, which i now do every day. I turn it real hot, wash, then turn to cold as it will go and spend maybe 2 or 3 minutes under it. I know it has alot of benefits regards how i feel, but what exactly does it do? Don't know for sure!!!