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Thanksgiving
08-01-2015, 12:51 AM
Taking progesterone cream and a DHT pro hormone at the same time.

Both effect 5ar activity.

Is the effect synergistic or opposing, or does it vary?

Thanks

entropy
08-01-2015, 08:08 AM
In the post fin forum please. No man is crazy enough to use progesterone unless he's real desperate. Iirc, we don't know shit about progesterone in men. Pretty sure it occupies the same receptors as dht though..

Thanksgiving
08-01-2015, 04:22 PM
Thanks for the reply entropy

1. This has no mention of fin

2. Calling me crazy for asking is an ignorant stance. I have had success with it in the past and it's well documented. But I also know that if I don't dose it properly it makes me feel worse

Notably it does wonders for my adrenals, immune system, and mood.

3. Does anyone have a scientific answer?

Thanksgiving
08-01-2015, 05:40 PM
I also read that it has the same receptors as DHT. I am simply unsure how they would interact which is why I asked

entropy
08-01-2015, 06:03 PM
It's crazy because we don't know squat about it. Treating something we don't know squat about with something we don't know squat about it crazy.

To the meat of things though, as best we can tell it has some kinda androgenic effect in that it opposes estrogen, much like estrogen too much or too little and you've got a problem. However we don't really know why.

The best option would probably be to look into the effect it has into the female body and then backwards rationalise from there. Which is crazy.

Thats why I deem this crazy and fin related. Very, very few men that weren't involved with fin would ever consider using the stuff. No offense meant.

Thanksgiving
08-02-2015, 01:27 PM
I agree with you, most men wouldn't have a use for it.

Except for men with adrenal fatigue and prostrate issues. Both of which are related to fin as well as perhaps users of deca and other progestin steroids.

It seems to have a balancing effect on hormones. I haven't taken blood tests for two years, but I had exceptional bloods while taking progesterone cream, micro dose letrozole, and dostinex. I had a mini full recovery but then crashed as I got impatient/ambitious and added andractim and seligiline. FWIW. I don't mean to talk about fin here, only science.

I still am curious if one of the scientists on this board wants to chime in.

I also had a theory that since progesterone is a mild 5ar2 inhibitor, that the body fights back by producing more 5ar2 and this works in synergy with its positive effects on estrogen dominance.

Cholesterol>LH>T

And theN T>DHT or T>E2

The testosterone conversion is what seems to be out of whack in fin users, and I think progesterone has positive effects on balancing this part of the chain, as well as regulating Cortisol.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies

Jelisej
08-03-2015, 06:19 PM
I have not read an article TBH, but as I explained u number of times before- progesterone cream is no-no, I would not use progesterone cream directly, as it can bound DHT as well as E2, but it kinde more negates effects of DHT if its to high, and it does kill libido if its too high- and on top of that it can raise prolactin.
And for progesterone to clears off takes very long time, and to makes things worse there is not supplement or meds to bring it down (well there was some med on trial but dont know what happened with it)
Its better to raise progesterone by using pregnenolone.
Actually, I'm great fun of pregeneolone and it does have a lot of benefits on its own plus it does raise progesterone among others.

At the end of the day, very important is to have a go to have a good "metabolic rate" otherwise all added hormone do not matabolise cascade properly, meaning that whatever you add you will not have much benefits of it, and possiblly more downside than benefits.
When one looks at hormonal profile needs to address adrenal, thyrois and sex hormones (in same order) as well, and good start is to have an extensive bloods.

Hope this helps.

ToniBR
08-03-2015, 07:45 PM
Could someone lower progesterone boosting thyroid?

Jelisej
08-04-2015, 06:30 AM
Could someone lower progesterone boosting thyroid?

Not sure, as interaction between them is quite complex- and thyroid hormones and progesterone are quite connected people with low thyroid hormones usually have low progesterone levels- increasing thyroid hormones should also increase progesterone "production" but there are many other situations,
so one thing that is sure is adding thyroid would make better use of progesterone, as it would convert more readily and all hormones would "cascade" better, and would be less aromatisation etc...

entropy
08-04-2015, 07:43 AM
Not sure, as interaction between them is quite complex- and thyroid hormones and progesterone are quite connected people with low thyroid hormones usually have low progesterone levels- increasing thyroid hormones should also increase progesterone "production" but there are many other situations,
so one thing that is sure is adding thyroid would make better use of progesterone, as it would convert more readily and all hormones would "cascade" better, and would be less aromatisation etc...
Jels explanations are great. But.

It's to complicated to mess with progesterone and get a predictable outcome. So.

Short answer: No
Long answer: Noooooooo

Thanksgiving
08-04-2015, 08:45 AM
To update everyone

I started progesterone cream a week ago on Saturday. Saturday I felt 100% good. Rock hard spontaneous erections, had great sex. And after that I gradually began feeling worse. Like you all said it's such a damn confusing hormone. I felt great in it two years ago.

So my question is, how can I safely come off progesterone cream while keeping my adrenals healthy?

Jelisej
08-04-2015, 04:32 PM
Jels explanations are great. But.

It's to complicated to mess with progesterone and get a predictable outcome. So.

Short answer: No
Long answer: Noooooooo


I never said Yes, so we agree on both short and long answer :)



To update everyone
I started progesterone cream a week ago on Saturday. Saturday I felt 100% good. Rock hard spontaneous erections, had great sex. And after that I gradually began feeling worse. Like you all said it's such a damn confusing hormone. I felt great in it two years ago.
So my question is, how can I safely come off progesterone cream while keeping my adrenals healthy?

Well, now you have enough progesterone for a few weeks.

Get yourself pregnenolone, it will top up progesterone as well as few others. Plus some more benefits.


Old thread that may help:
Adrenal Fatigue and Hormone Therapy by Dr Lam (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/1303-adrenal-fatigue-hormone-therapy-dr-lam.html)

Brazilianguy
08-05-2015, 07:34 AM
My experience with progesterone cream.

First I felt 75% better and was fucking girls like crazy, my friends even said calm down or You will get an STD (2 months feeling 75%). Then I thought I will take more to get even better then I started to apply and crash, apply and crash until I decided to stop once and for all. I was 75% came back to 10%.

You may ask why you felt 75% the first time. I was also taking vitamin D, Zinc, Ômega 3, Magnesium and Tribulus (probably tribulus did the most as it acts on the estrogen receptor, basically my hormones were ok with good T:E and then tribulus made my T connect to androgen receptors and I felt better)

I decided to use herbs again and I thought about taking Panax Ginseng which was a huge mistake there are studies saying its basically an estrogenic herb and I was 10% I got so bad that I would I got -10%. Almost throwing up everyday.

Then I took tribulus again and now I'm 15 or 20% But I now this is something that really helps to recover just need to know more about it, get better hormonal profile, diet, vitamins, exercises, running and it will work very well.

entropy
08-05-2015, 09:58 AM
My experience with progesterone cream.

First I felt 75% better and was fucking girls like crazy, my friends even said calm down or You will get an STD (2 months feeling 75%). Then I thought I will take more to get even better then I started to apply and crash, apply and crash until I decided to stop once and for all. I was 75% came back to 10%.

You may ask why you felt 75% the first time. I was also taking vitamin D, Zinc, Ômega 3, Magnesium and Tribulus (probably tribulus did the most as it acts on the estrogen receptor, basically my hormones were ok with good T:E and then tribulus made my T connect to androgen receptors and I felt better)

I decided to use herbs again and I thought about taking Panax Ginseng which was a huge mistake there are studies saying its basically an estrogenic herb and I was 10% I got so bad that I would I got -10%. Almost throwing up everyday.

Then I took tribulus again and now I'm 15 or 20% But I now this is something that really helps to recover just need to know more about it, get better hormonal profile, diet, vitamins, exercises, running and it will work very well.

Where's the proof Trib acts on estrogen receptors? You post a lot of statements as if they're fact and it really does a number on my bullshit radar. I want to yell at you for spreading misinformation but I kinda wanna know where you got it too.

nate3993
08-05-2015, 02:18 PM
Where's the proof Trib acts on estrogen receptors? You post a lot of statements as if they're fact and it really does a number on my bullshit radar. I want to yell at you for spreading misinformation but I kinda wanna know where you got it too.

u mean ginseng ;)

Jelisej
08-05-2015, 04:37 PM
My experience with progesterone cream.
First I felt 75% better and was fucking girls like crazy, my friends even said calm down or You will get an STD (2 months feeling 75%). Then I thought I will take more to get even better then I started to apply and crash, apply and crash until I decided to stop once and for all. I was 75% came back to 10%.
You may ask why you felt 75% the first time. I was also taking vitamin D, Zinc, Ômega 3, Magnesium and Tribulus (probably tribulus did the most as it acts on the estrogen receptor, basically my hormones were ok with good T:E and then tribulus made my T connect to androgen receptors and I felt better)
I decided to use herbs again and I thought about taking Panax Ginseng which was a huge mistake there are studies saying its basically an estrogenic herb and I was 10% I got so bad that I would I got -10%. Almost throwing up everyday.
Then I took tribulus again and now I'm 15 or 20% But I now this is something that really helps to recover just need to know more about it, get better hormonal profile, diet, vitamins, exercises, running and it will work very well.

Some parts of your post are bit misguiding as you dont have a scientific equipement to prove that something is acting on your receptors, and if you start taking lot of supplements at one go its next to impossible to tell which one is working
and if it working is it because a) it affected receptors of certain hormone
b) it affected hormone levels of said hormone
c) combination of both?

Also I find highly unusual that progesterone increased libido for 2 months before it start going down? There must be more story to that, wheter dose was really small, or
progesterone is important hormone, but also has a sedating effect on brain; that could also work well for some people (and maybe in your case) , and sedating effect is one of reasons why it kills libido so fast for so many (anything sedating will kill libido for most).

You made a good point- that of eating well, exercise well and supplementing some of the herbs will help improve things.

entropy
08-05-2015, 04:44 PM
u mean ginseng ;)

My mistake:cool: Fish oil too :confused: Guys, I've been there but you wonder why the medical community doesn't take it seriously? This. This is why.

Brazilianguy
08-05-2015, 05:21 PM
My mistake:cool: Fish oil too :confused: Guys, I've been there but you wonder why the medical community doesn't take it seriously? This. This is why.

Here is your proof. I can't take you seriously because you always ask the same question while not searching for The answer. I can also find The study of tribulus acting on androgen receptor. I can find it in portuguese, English and Italian which one do you prefer you piece of shit. I'm tired to see you saying shit on my posts and always The same stupid thing.

We studied the estrogenic activity of a component of Panax ginseng, ginsenoside-Rb1. The activity of ginsenoside-Rb1 was characterized in a transient transfection system, using estrogen receptor isoforms and estrogen-responsive luciferase plasmids, in COS monkey kidney cells. Ginsenoside-Rb1 activated both alpha and beta estrogen receptors in a dose-dependent manner with maximal activity observed at 100 microm, the highest concentration examined. Activation was inhibited by the estrogen receptor antagonist ICI 182,780, indicating that the effects were mediated through the estrogen receptor. Treatment with 17beta-estradiol or ginsenoside-Rb1 increased expression of the progesterone receptor, pS2, and estrogen receptor in MCF-7 cells and of AP-1-driven luciferase genes in COS cells. Although these data suggest that it is functionally very similar to 17beta-estradiol, ginsenoside-Rb1 failed to displace specific binding of [(3)H]17beta-estradiol from estrogen receptors in MCF-7 whole-cell ligand binding assays. Our results indicate that the estrogen-like activity of ginsenoside-Rb1 is independent of direct estrogen receptor association.

entropy
08-05-2015, 05:42 PM
That's not proof. Thats words copied and pasted with literally no information on who conducted the studies. I'm tired of you lowering the tone of an outstanding forum of great guys with your misguided information, annoying posting style and abusive nature when someone calls you out on it.

But hey, I'm not going to lower the tone further by making you look stupid. It's something you demonstrate pretty well all by yourself anyway.

Brazilianguy
08-05-2015, 05:54 PM
I just lowered the tone with you because you always try to say the same thing about what I say. Copy those scientific words and put on Google and You will find out the whole scientific study showing How panax ginseng is estrogenic.

Regarding tribulus acting on Androgen Receptors

Effect of Tribulus terrestris on nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate-diaphorase activity and androgen receptors in rat brain. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15588660) (Study in rats. There are studies in humans But I imagine you don't read portugueses nor italian so I would not waste my time)

Dietary supplement

T. terrestris is now being promoted as a booster for the purpose of increasing sex drive. Its use for this purpose originated in Eastern Europe in the 1970s. It was popularized in America by 1970s strongman Jeffrey Petermann. Independent studies [5] have suggested that Tribulus terrestris extract slightly increases hormone levels, though leaving them in the normal range.

The extract is claimed to increase the body's natural testosterone levels and thereby improve male sexual performance and help build muscle. T. terrestris has consistently failed to increase testosterone levels in controlled studies.[6][7][8] It has also failed to demonstrate strength-enhancing properties.[9] However, many supplement brands have sold products that combine various herbs with T. terrestris, with debatable effects.

Tribulus has been shown to enhance sexual behaviour in an animal model.[10] It appears to do so by stimulating androgen receptors in the brain.

Some body builders use T. terrestris as post cycle therapy or "PCT". After they have completed an anabolic-steroid cycle, they use it under the assumption that it will restore the body's natural testosterone levels.
[edit] Medicinal uses"

There is a common way to talk to people. Give respect that You will receive respect. That's all I have to say.

entropy
08-05-2015, 06:08 PM
Alright. So you've produced a couple studies from some strange corner of the Internet that somewhat suggest Trib effects the androgen receptor(btw that's never been proven in human studies, but some of us here feel it does) . Thats not actually what you said, nor what I called you out in. Here's what you wrote.

You may ask why you felt 75% the first time. I was also taking vitamin D, Zinc, Ômega 3, Magnesium and Tribulus (probably tribulus did the most as it acts on the estrogen receptor

Brazilianguy
08-05-2015, 06:14 PM
Alright. So you've produced a couple studies from some strange corner of the Internet that somewhat suggest Trib effects the androgen receptor(btw that's never been proven in human studies, but some of us here feel it does) . Thats not actually what you said, nor what I called you out in. Here's what you wrote.

You may ask why you felt 75% the first time. I was also taking vitamin D, Zinc, Ômega 3, Magnesium and Tribulus (probably tribulus did the most as it acts on the estrogen receptor

If you continue reading I said connecting T to the androgen receptor. The part I said estrogen receptor I wrote wrong.

entropy
08-05-2015, 06:52 PM
So rather than correcting me on your typo I get called a piece of shit? Niiiice.

I'm done now. I'm just gonna leave you to do your thing. For future reference, if anyone is reading back through this. I don't agree anything this guy suggests or does to his own body.

Jelisej
08-05-2015, 07:07 PM
At last some signs of life on this forum ;)

Guys! Its nice to have a good debate, but lets try be constructive and without insults.

Thanksgiving
08-05-2015, 08:43 PM
JJ

Thanks for all your posts and advice.

I want to come off everything I've been taking and see where my baseline is but I'm hesitant because last time I did this I crashed.

I felt about 80-90% in March

I got on a prohormone cycle and felt 95%

But then started shutting down and did a PCT but felt horrible after.

The last few months have been so up and down. I'm taking too much stuff and want to restore baseline.

In the last month I've taken
Alpha hard
Clomid
Micro dose letrozole
Low dose naltrexone
Progesterone cream
Cabergoline
Selegiline
DHEA
Viagra
Cialis
Raw thyroid

Last time I tried to come off everything I crashed. I was thinking of doing some kind of fast or detox to cleanse my system.

I read your advice about pregnanolone. I don't have access to the pill but have been taking lots of Coconut oil.

Up until last week I was able to have good sex with high dose Viagra but that function shut down after 3 days of progesterone cream.

I had been on alpha hard 11 weeks but since coming off I feel weird

I was on progesterone for a week but stopped two days ago and now am depressed

Was taking appx 50 mg of Clomid per week for 10 weeks. Helped at first but then stopped being as effective.

Was taking raw thyroid, helped at first but then started feeling very tired after taking it.

Stopped taking DHEA 3 weeks ago. Was on for 8 weeks. Helped a lot at first and my energy levels were great but then I think it started converting to E2 and shutting down LH. Adrenals crashed after coming off which is why I tried progesterone.

Been taking micro dose letrozole consistently. Not sure if this helps but E2 is a problem. I take .025 mg daily. Increased dose slightly recently upon coming off progesterone cream and DHT.

Have been on LDN for 14 weeks. It increased my focus and semen volume at first but made me very tired and achy. This could be contributing to my fatigue. Planning on discontinuing.

Been on seligiline on and off. Some days it makes me feel great but if I take it too often I get anxious

Been on cabergoline consistently.

Perhaps this post helps anyone in a similar predicament. I want to come off everything and see where my baseline is but I am very concerned about interactions and rebound effects.

Brazilianguy
08-06-2015, 06:52 AM
So rather than correcting me on your typo I get called a piece of shit? Niiiice.

I'm done now. I'm just gonna leave you to do your thing. For future reference, if anyone is reading back through this. I don't agree anything this guy suggests or does to his own body.

I just said that because it wasn't The first time that you try to say The same thing over and over like a broken record. I just said shit because I'm not an English native speaker so its hard to make a brilliant ironic sentence like you do.

Again there are studies proving what I said about tribulus and panax ginseng.

Just for the record. I never insultes anyone here. I was rude against Entropy because he was being ironic and critic without saying anything good for a while. For The others I'm sorry that I wrote wrong and changed androgen for estrogen. I was too tired and my corrector could've changed it. that's all.

entropy
08-06-2015, 07:58 AM
Honestly mate there's nothing good to say about what you do. I don't condone it, cd doesn't condone it, none of the members condone it and you don't listen to the advice you're given. Which begs the question, why are you here?

I might come across as a broken record but the crux of the matter is this.. I'm recovered. You aren't. I consider the things you do and suggest to be harmful and I will continue to repeat that "like a broken record."

Seriously. Go through this guys posts and I don't even think he's one of the pfs guys, apparently it was soy and green tea that got him in this situation? Fruit loop.

entropy
08-06-2015, 08:05 AM
JJ

Thanks for all your posts and advice.

I want to come off everything I've been taking and see where my baseline is but I'm hesitant because last time I did this I crashed.

I felt about 80-90% in March

I got on a prohormone cycle and felt 95%

But then started shutting down and did a PCT but felt horrible after.

The last few months have been so up and down. I'm taking too much stuff and want to restore baseline.

In the last month I've taken
Alpha hard
Clomid
Micro dose letrozole
Low dose naltrexone
Progesterone cream
Cabergoline
Selegiline
DHEA
Viagra
Cialis
Raw thyroid

Last time I tried to come off everything I crashed. I was thinking of doing some kind of fast or detox to cleanse my system.

I read your advice about pregnanolone. I don't have access to the pill but have been taking lots of Coconut oil.

Up until last week I was able to have good sex with high dose Viagra but that function shut down after 3 days of progesterone cream.

I had been on alpha hard 11 weeks but since coming off I feel weird

I was on progesterone for a week but stopped two days ago and now am depressed

Was taking appx 50 mg of Clomid per week for 10 weeks. Helped at first but then stopped being as effective.

Was taking raw thyroid, helped at first but then started feeling very tired after taking it.

Stopped taking DHEA 3 weeks ago. Was on for 8 weeks. Helped a lot at first and my energy levels were great but then I think it started converting to E2 and shutting down LH. Adrenals crashed after coming off which is why I tried progesterone.

Been taking micro dose letrozole consistently. Not sure if this helps but E2 is a problem. I take .025 mg daily. Increased dose slightly recently upon coming off progesterone cream and DHT.

Have been on LDN for 14 weeks. It increased my focus and semen volume at first but made me very tired and achy. This could be contributing to my fatigue. Planning on discontinuing.

Been on seligiline on and off. Some days it makes me feel great but if I take it too often I get anxious

Been on cabergoline consistently.

Perhaps this post helps anyone in a similar predicament. I want to come off everything and see where my baseline is but I am very concerned about interactions and rebound effects.

Dude. Thats just... Insane. Why!? Why do you guys get yourself in this situation!? You know this is going to be hard work now, right? You're taking so many different things that we just don't know where your hormones are sitting, you've created such a completely artificial hormonal environment. Everything is all over the place. All I can advise is come off one at a time, slowly, taking notes on how you feel and what changes as you remove the many, many drugs you're taking.

This is going to suck for you. Its going to be hella unpleasant, like withdrawal from drugs but eventually you'll find your baseline and stop feeling awful. Then maybe we can give you some advice. Assuming your diet and exercise is flawless?

Thanksgiving
08-06-2015, 09:02 AM
Entropy I agree with you. It's too much. I was following CDs routine to the letter and getting very good results.

Then I got greedy and added alpha mass and straight DHEA to the alpha hard phase. And I felt great at first, and then crashed. And then panicked.

I hate it. I'm on way too much stuff right now. I decided to cut out everything except cabergoline, letrozole and Clomid. I'm tapering off Clomid. I like cabergoline a lot to come off so I'll stay on that for now. I take low dose letrozole to regulate my estrogen. I'll come off that last due to high rebound probability and then bridge into an alpha hard phase which will also help control estrogen as I come off letrozole. And then resume CD protocol as I had been.

Fuck. I was so close to a complete recovery and then got greedy with adding those other PHs and then panicked and now am in a bad place. I did two fasts before. I was thinking of fasting again to restore a balance but I don't have the proper situation.

I agree with entropy about being on too much and the need to come off slowly. The other bad thing is that Clomid and progesterone stay in the body a very long time. Is there anyway so could speed up elimination of these compounds? For example we used to take niacin to try to get weed out of the system.

Brazilianguy
08-06-2015, 10:25 AM
Honestly mate there's nothing good to say about what you do. I don't condone it, cd doesn't condone it, none of the members condone it and you don't listen to the advice you're given. Which begs the question, why are you here?

I might come across as a broken record but the crux of the matter is this.. I'm recovered. You aren't. I consider the things you do and suggest to be harmful and I will continue to repeat that "like a broken record."

Seriously. Go through this guys posts and I don't even think he's one of the pfs guys, apparently it was soy and green tea that got him in this situation? Fruit loop.

I'm just talking about herbs and vitamins. I'm here to get better results from The herbs because I notice not only better libido But also bigger and ripped muscle mass that stay with me even when I stop taking them. I took saw palmetto and got bad. Now I hope you stop being such an ass.

All that I'm asking is people experience with herbs, If they notice that they did something that make them work even better. I'm not asking you.

ToniBR
08-06-2015, 11:46 AM
Not sure, as interaction between them is quite complex- and thyroid hormones and progesterone are quite connected people with low thyroid hormones usually have low progesterone levels- increasing thyroid hormones should also increase progesterone "production" but there are many other situations,
so one thing that is sure is adding thyroid would make better use of progesterone, as it would convert more readily and all hormones would "cascade" better, and would be less aromatisation etc...

I'm not crazy to take progesterone, I asked because I already have high levels of that shit. If t3 won't help than I don't know. I have cold finger tips and feet.

Jelisej
08-06-2015, 06:42 PM
I'm not crazy to take progesterone, I asked because I already have high levels of that shit. If t3 won't help than I don't know. I have cold finger tips and feet.

Self-medicating with T3 is not good idea, you need to see a doc or endo and do proper check, otherwise you will do yourself more harm than good.
Another question is why is your progesterone high, that needs to be research as well,
you defintiely need coprehensive blood tests.

ToniBR
08-06-2015, 06:50 PM
Self-medicating with T3 is not good idea, you need to see a doc or endo and do proper check, otherwise you will do yourself more harm than good.
Another question is why is your progesterone high, that needs to be research as well,
you defintiely need coprehensive blood tests.


Thanks, brother! I'm doing a compreensive bloodtest actually. I'll post them as soon as have the results. Any specific tests you think that I should add? So far I'm lifting and meditating to keep my body working and my mind in control. Relgion works wonders in these situations.

My progesterone might be high due to past use of steroids and massive stress when I crashed. Could it be? I used nandrolone two years ago, but didnt seem to have major problems from it.

Oh, I took the shitty tamoxifen and some AI trying to melt down a gyno too. Finasteride was the cherry on the cake maybe.

Jelisej
08-06-2015, 07:05 PM
JJ
Thanks for all your posts and advice.
I want to come off everything I've been taking and see where my baseline is but I'm hesitant because last time I did this I crashed.
I felt about 80-90% in March
I got on a prohormone cycle and felt 95%
But then started shutting down and did a PCT but felt horrible after.
The last few months have been so up and down. I'm taking too much stuff and want to restore baseline.
In the last month I've taken
Alpha hard
Clomid
Micro dose letrozole
Low dose naltrexone
Progesterone cream
Cabergoline
Selegiline
DHEA
Viagra
Cialis
Raw thyroid
Last time I tried to come off everything I crashed. I was thinking of doing some kind of fast or detox to cleanse my system.
I read your advice about pregnanolone. I don't have access to the pill but have been taking lots of Coconut oil.
Up until last week I was able to have good sex with high dose Viagra but that function shut down after 3 days of progesterone cream.
I had been on alpha hard 11 weeks but since coming off I feel weird
I was on progesterone for a week but stopped two days ago and now am depressed
Was taking appx 50 mg of Clomid per week for 10 weeks. Helped at first but then stopped being as effective.
Was taking raw thyroid, helped at first but then started feeling very tired after taking it.
Stopped taking DHEA 3 weeks ago. Was on for 8 weeks. Helped a lot at first and my energy levels were great but then I think it started converting to E2 and shutting down LH. Adrenals crashed after coming off which is why I tried progesterone.
Been taking micro dose letrozole consistently. Not sure if this helps but E2 is a problem. I take .025 mg daily. Increased dose slightly recently upon coming off progesterone cream and DHT.
Have been on LDN for 14 weeks. It increased my focus and semen volume at first but made me very tired and achy. This could be contributing to my fatigue. Planning on discontinuing.
Been on seligiline on and off. Some days it makes me feel great but if I take it too often I get anxious
Been on cabergoline consistently.
Perhaps this post helps anyone in a similar predicament. I want to come off everything and see where my baseline is but I am very concerned about interactions and rebound effects.

Your self-medication program as it makes no sense to me,
also cabergoline can make person feeling wak, falling asleep all the time and some other symptoms that are similar with low adrenal output- so maybe that cause you too feel like having "adreal crash"?

Bro' you know what I'm going to say to you- you need comprehensive blood test and appointment with doc, it will be lot cheaper-
by now you must have spend a lot of money with no avail (as many others on this forum).
So, best thing is to start from scratch, do lot of bloodtests etc...

Jelisej
08-06-2015, 07:38 PM
Thanks, brother! I'm doing a compreensive bloodtest actually. I'll post them as soon as have the results. Any specific tests you think that I should add? So far I'm lifting and meditating to keep my body working and my mind in control. Relgion works wonders in these situations.
My progesterone might be high due to past use of steroids and massive stress when I crashed. Could it be? I used nandrolone two years ago, but didnt seem to have major problems from it.
Oh, I took the shitty tamoxifen and some AI trying to melt down a gyno too. Finasteride was the cherry on the cake maybe.

Meditating is an excellent idea- if you're calm of if you found some kind of inner peace you made an big step forward, that is probably most important step.

High progesterone could be for a number of reasons, maybe was there all the time unspotted- Congenital adrenal hyperplasia;
if you're testicles are failling (both LH and HCG will raise progesterone) or your body is trying to produce more cortisol but cortisol gets used quickly, there are number of other possibilities but lets not speculate.

TSH
fT3
fT4
Progesterone Cortisol
LH E2 Total testosterone
SHBG Albumin, Prolactin
Also would be nice to see DHEA(s), Reverse T3
Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies (TPOAb)
Thyroglobulin Antibodies (TgAb)

thats from hormones, there are other stuff that would be good to see: insulin, vit d,total blood count, ACTH stimulation test would give you a verdict on your adrenals.
Not sure if I missed something, anyone?

Cdsnuts
08-06-2015, 07:46 PM
Reading this thread made my head hurt. The things you guys do to yourselves .. I can't even

Jelisej
08-06-2015, 07:52 PM
Reading this thread made my head hurt. The things you guys do to yourselves .. I can't even

You've been there before.
Please be constructive bro'.

ToniBR
08-06-2015, 07:57 PM
Meditating is an excellent idea- if you're calm of if you found some kind of inner peace you made an big step forward, that is probably most important step.

High progesterone could be for a number of reasons, maybe was there all the time unspotted- Congenital adrenal hyperplasia;
if you're testicles are failling (both LH and HCG will raise progesterone) or your body is trying to produce more cortisol but cortisol gets used quickly, there are number of other possibilities but lets not speculate.

TSH
fT3
fT4
Progesterone Cortisol
LH E2 Total testosterone
SHBG Albumin, Prolactin
Also would be nice to see DHEA(s), Reverse T3
Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies (TPOAb)
Thyroglobulin Antibodies (TgAb)

thats from hormones, there are other stuff that would be good to see: insulin, vit d,total blood count, ACTH stimulation test would give you a verdict on your adrenals.
Not sure if I missed something, anyone?

I already made all these and a couple others. The results should be ready in the next weeks. My sex department actually improved quite a bit in the last weeks. Funny how I achieved that mostly by controling my mind, but my physical sides and ability to think is still severly impaired.

Jelisej
08-06-2015, 08:05 PM
I already made all these and a couple others. The results should be ready in the next weeks. My sex department actually improved quite a bit in the last weeks. Funny how I achieved that mostly by controling my mind, but my physical sides and ability to think is still severly impaired.

At some point we all start having issues, there are few that are exceptions, thats just a life.
At least, it seems that you are going in right direction.
Take one step at a time, dont put pressure on yourself.

ToniBR
08-06-2015, 08:09 PM
At some point we all start having issues, there are few that are exceptions, thats just a life.
At least, it seems that you are going in right direction.
Take one step at a time, dont put pressure on yourself.

I agree! Actually things weren't so perfect right before fin to be honest. But anyway, I'm willing to put things on the right track now to fix the most. I'm not following blindly any protocol since I know the wrong things will make me worse and hinder my recovery. This is why I'm investing everything I have in the right blood tests and right drugs if necessary.

I'm thankful for your help, might thank you personally when I finally escape from this hell. Any kind words or will to help makes all the difference now.

entropy
08-06-2015, 08:59 PM
You've been there before.
Please be constructive bro'.

Understand your thought pattern Jel. But holy reckless, Batman.

ToniBR
08-06-2015, 09:12 PM
Understand your thought pattern Jel. But holy reckless, Batman.

You problably also understand the state of mind that made that guy do that. I don't aprove it either, but man, sometimes people get in a situation where they don't feel like they have anything to lose. At least he is trying and not giving up with a bullet on his head.

entropy
08-06-2015, 09:18 PM
You problably also understand the state of mind that made that guy do that. I don't aprove it either, but man, sometimes people get in a situation where they don't feel like they have anything to lose. At least he is trying and not giving up with a bullet on his head.

I see it more as shooting blind out of desperation. It worries me that someone else who's scared and desperate will follow suit. Can't say it isn't brave though but very much a last resort.

ToniBR
08-06-2015, 09:22 PM
I see it more as shooting blind out of desperation. It worries me that someone else who's scared and desperate will follow suit. Can't say it isn't brave though but very much a last resort.

I agree! But he is looking for help, not for mocking. Anyway, for the dude swalling up everything. Have in mind that you could crash even without pfs taking all this.
DHEA alone taken in excess converts to estrone, which you don't want.

Thanksgiving
08-06-2015, 09:54 PM
Yeah mental state has been bad lately. I had achieved at least a situation where I could have sex and relationships and not be lonely. And now that has been taken away from me again, mentally it feels like I'm back at the beginning. But I did it to myself.

I am from United States but currently living in South America and don't know where to get a blood test here? Any help is appreciated. My Spanish is decent but not fluent.

Also, besides fasting, what can I do to cleanse my system of all these compounds? I know it has a lot to do with metabolism.

And is it possible that cabergoline could actually be hurting my libido? I'm scared to come off it right now due to my recent fuck up with progesterone cream. Concerned about prolactin.

Two years ago, taking only cabergoline, my test went from 340 to 670 in 8 weeks. Estrogen rose also but I am convinced it does something positive. Also cleared up brain fog.

I went from having things relatively under control in March, to wacko, to relative stability, to now completely fucked up again.

Thanks for all the help guys. I appreciate the CONSTRUCTIVE advice so much. I hate to sound negative and like a complainer, thanks for bearing with me.

Cdsnuts
08-06-2015, 09:55 PM
You've been there before.
Please be constructive bro'.
Yes.....I have...which is exactly why this makes my head hurt. You can lead a horse to water......

Thanksgiving
08-06-2015, 09:56 PM
Also @entropy is there a link where I can read about your recovery?

Thanksgiving
08-06-2015, 10:00 PM
I'm coming up on 4 and a half years. Perhaps it happened to you also, where it felt like you had things under control only to fuck yourself up again.

My greed is what got me into trouble with fin in the first place and now that same greed fucked up my recovery.

Working on myself right now doing some soul searching. I hate being alone. I had built some positive relationships, had women in my life again, and now since my recent event with progesterone I make up excuses why I can't see people and am so lonely again I hate it. It's almost harder once you have something and lose it.

Cdsnuts
08-06-2015, 10:01 PM
At some point we all start having issues, there are few that are exceptions, thats just a life.
At least, it seems that you are going in right direction.
Take one step at a time, dont put pressure on yourself.
There is always a reason for "issues" the human body is built to perform not to break down for no good reason. These reasons are different for everyone but they all have a cause and they all have a fix.

entropy
08-06-2015, 10:26 PM
Also @entropy is there a link where I can read about your recovery?

Nope. Both English and myself found that being quite private about the personal side of things minimised the psychological impact just because we weren't dwelling on things. I'm not really sure where the idea came from but we definitely found it to be a turning point. If you look real carefully there's a point where cd just stopped talking/thinking about it.. Right before he got better. Your mind is super powerful.

Cdsnuts
08-06-2015, 10:28 PM
Nope. Both English and myself found that being quite private about the personal side of things minimised the psychological impact just because we weren't dwelling on things. I'm not really sure where the idea came from but we definitely found it to be a turning point. If you look real carefully there's a point where cd just stopped talking/thinking about it.. Right before he got better. Your mind is super powerful.
This is the very reason I suggest a meditation routine as part of the overall regimen. It is the one thing that most overlook

Thanksgiving
08-06-2015, 10:38 PM
I agree with both of you. I stopped posting on PH a long time ago and typically I only ask questions on here.

I think this progesterone episode has me feeling all emotional lol I feel stupid writing all this shit but I have gotten some valuable feedback.

Entropy, I'm curious to hear more about your recovery if you'd be willing to share.

CD, what forms of meditation did you do besides holosync? I have (5) 30 minute tracks but I am not sure how to use. Track 1 is the dive, am I supposed to listen to that every day before moving on to immersion? And then there is immersion 1.5, 0.5, and 0.3. What is the proper progression?

Thanksgiving
08-06-2015, 10:53 PM
I'm really fucking concerned/confused about my decision to use progesterone.

On Saturday July 25 I took it in the morning and felt incredible. Better than ever. Spontaneous erections all day.

Sunday July 26 I took it in the morning and began noticing brain fog

Monday the 27 it was a little bit worse

I didn't take it Tuesday the 28 and felt horrible. Couldn't get hard with a girl.

Wednesday the 29 through Monday August 3 I took twice a day. Was ok Wednesday-Friday. Saturday managed only a half erection and Monday couldn't get hard at all. So I stopped taking.

And now I feel horrible. I had gyno surgery so I don't think I can get gyno but my nipples are really puffy and I have bad acne flare ups on my face and my mood is seriously horrible. You see me writing all this emotional shit, it's not me. And my dick is once again dead as it's ever been.

This brings my back to my question. Is there anything I can do to eliminate this shit faster? Do I need to start taking it again and slowly wean off?

My mental state/anxiety is horrible right now. I'm scared because I have no idea what's going on.

Keep in mind that I took this for 6 months straight with great results 2 years ago, thought I knew what I was doing.

I hate being confused. Thanks again for the support. Really want to detox my body right now.

Jelisej
08-07-2015, 06:23 AM
There is always a reason for "issues" the human body is built to perform not to break down for no good reason. These reasons are different for everyone but they all have a cause and they all have a fix.

Ageing?
Stress in life, which sometimes cant be helped?
Hereditary diseases.... There are lot of situations that we are helpless,
in any case if person is not feeling well we cant hold a grudge agains him or judge him by his ilness (at least IMO), we can try to help him or not
sometimes they are astray and it takes long time to put them on right put, sometimes they get lost in widerness, but for us-
we can eiteher try to help them or not;

and how many people on this forum do what they should not do?
how many people use or have used stuff they should not?

"He who is without sin cast the first stone."

Jelisej
08-07-2015, 06:29 AM
I'm really fucking concerned/confused about my decision to use progesterone.
On Saturday July 25 I took it in the morning and felt incredible. Better than ever. Spontaneous erections all day.
Sunday July 26 I took it in the morning and began noticing brain fog
Monday the 27 it was a little bit worse
I didn't take it Tuesday the 28 and felt horrible. Couldn't get hard with a girl.
Wednesday the 29 through Monday August 3 I took twice a day. Was ok Wednesday-Friday. Saturday managed only a half erection and Monday couldn't get hard at all. So I stopped taking.
And now I feel horrible. I had gyno surgery so I don't think I can get gyno but my nipples are really puffy and I have bad acne flare ups on my face and my mood is seriously horrible. You see me writing all this emotional shit, it's not me. And my dick is once again dead as it's ever been.
This brings my back to my question. Is there anything I can do to eliminate this shit faster? Do I need to start taking it again and slowly wean off?
My mental state/anxiety is horrible right now. I'm scared because I have no idea what's going on.
Keep in mind that I took this for 6 months straight with great results 2 years ago, thought I knew what I was doing.
I hate being confused. Thanks again for the support. Really want to detox my body right now.

There is nothing confusing about using progesterone- as every single person said it- dont use it.

You can treat yourself by how you feeling, it simply does not work well- after so many years you should understand that well.

Your mental state and anxiety is a big part result of how are you thinking; to change that it will take long time and you need to work on it
stop looking for a magic pill, as it does not exist,

now, you need to tell us in that period of 6 months when you felt great, what were you doing and what things made you feel good (both mentally and physically).

ToniBR
08-07-2015, 07:27 AM
Yeah mental state has been bad lately. I had achieved at least a situation where I could have sex and relationships and not be lonely. And now that has been taken away from me again, mentally it feels like I'm back at the beginning. But I did it to myself.

I am from United States but currently living in South America and don't know where to get a blood test here? Any help is appreciated. My Spanish is decent but not fluent.

Also, besides fasting, what can I do to cleanse my system of all these compounds? I know it has a lot to do with metabolism.

And is it possible that cabergoline could actually be hurting my libido? I'm scared to come off it right now due to my recent fuck up with progesterone cream. Concerned about prolactin.

Two years ago, taking only cabergoline, my test went from 340 to 670 in 8 weeks. Estrogen rose also but I am convinced it does something positive. Also cleared up brain fog.

I went from having things relatively under control in March, to wacko, to relative stability, to now completely fucked up again.

Thanks for all the help guys. I appreciate the CONSTRUCTIVE advice so much. I hate to sound negative and like a complainer, thanks for bearing with me.


Where are you living? If you live in Brazil blood tests are easy to get and not that expensive. You don't need a prescription for them.

May I ask why you took cabergoline and dhea? Where prolactin high and dhea low? I'm asking because my first bloods showed high and above range levels of dhea, cortisol, progesterone and estradiol, which means that if I did the same thing you did I would probably be many right now.

And cabergoline DOES NOT lower prolactin. Even with high progesterone my prolactin is still mid range, so no point using cabergoline unless you need it.

silverstrand
08-07-2015, 10:40 AM
JJ


The last few months have been so up and down. I'm taking too much stuff and want to restore baseline.

In the last month I've taken
Alpha hard
Clomid
Micro dose letrozole
Low dose naltrexone
Progesterone cream
Cabergoline
Selegiline
DHEA
Viagra
Cialis
Raw thyroid



In one month, you have tried a lot of compounds. To let you know, I bought Letrozole, Proviron, and Novaldex within the last couple months. Tell you what, last night I threw it all in the trash without trying any of it, except for some proviron for a month. I'm sticking with Andractim and Androhard while also using herbs, diet, and exercise. Every person who has healed used natural methods to get there. I'm putting my faith in their experiences and committing myself to as natural recovery as possible. The way you are approaching things will make your head yo yo from one thing to the next and add a tremendous amount of stress. I know because I'm living it. I took a step back to take a look these drugs and it struck me, NOTHING from Big Pharma is intended to heal or cure the body; rather, their products make us into long term customers by keeping the body out of balance. I'm even thinking of dropping Andractim which is a bioidentical form of DHT (However, I do like the slimming effect it has had on my mid-section/the application area). Hope this helps.

silverstrand
08-07-2015, 11:18 AM
This is the very reason I suggest a meditation routine as part of the overall regimen. It is the one thing that most overlook

CD,
On top of this, how do you feel about periodic fasts? I find 3 day fasts to be rather easy and I've read that 3 days is the minimum for the immune system to recycle itself and reduce overally body inflimation. I'm thinking, a 3 day fast every month or every other month is much easier to maintain versus 5 day plus fasts. Also, 3 days is much less stressful to think about mentally. I might try for longer periods but I'd like your opinion since you've done exepectionally long fasts.

Thanksgiving
08-07-2015, 11:44 AM
@Silverstrand

Have you done any 3 day fasts? I ask because I want to do a fast right now but don't have a month to spend fasting. In the past I have done a 30 day water fast and a 10 day water fast. I was reviewing my notes last night. I logged every day of the fast and 20 days after. I felt so great after the fast, and all I was taking was T boosters and nystatin/probiotics. I noticed that I started feeling worse once I added in DHT and cabergoline. Interesting. What are the thoughts on a 3 day fast? I may do this to detox.

@ToniBR I'm in I know little about healthcare here

@JJ I felt great during that 6 months. I had blood tests in August, October, and December.

In August was my baseline with T levels of 340 and E2 at 26. LH and FSH were 3-4 each.

I then began taking cabergoline and 8 weeks later I was at T 670 E2 at 35 and LH/FSH the same

I then began taking .01 mg of letrozole per day and 4 weeks later I was at T 870, E2 at 19, LH at 10 and FSH at 5.

And yes cabergoline does have an effect on prolactin because in August I was at 7.7 and after 8 weeks it was less than 1.0.

Keep in mind this was 2013.

I was feeling quite recovered after taking letrozole for those 4 weeks. But I ended up adding in andractim to try and get rid of the gyno (this was before my gyno surgery) and at first I felt better but after 3 days or so I felt horrible.

During this time I trained martial arts, swam, and lifted weights 3 days a week. I read a ton of books. I didn't have any friends except a few people from the gym I ate lunch with twice a week and I didn't have any sex or approach women. Everywhere I went I just wore headphones so no one would talk to me. But overall I felt pretty good. And during this time I had a few episodes of drinking/marijuana that didn't set me back much. And if it did, the more progesterone cream I used the quicker I felt better.

I'll post my journal later from my 30 day fast in case it helps anyone. This was in March 2014. I want to do a fast right now but prefer to keep it under a week. But most cleansing from my experience occurred after day 5-6.

silverstrand
08-07-2015, 12:10 PM
@Silverstrand

Have you done any 3 day fasts? I ask because I want to do a fast right now but don't have a month to spend fasting. In the past I have done a 30 day water fast and a 10 day water fast. I was reviewing my notes last night. I logged every day of the fast and 20 days after. I felt so great after the fast, and all I was taking was T boosters and nystatin/probiotics. I noticed that I started feeling worse once I added in DHT and cabergoline. Interesting. What are the thoughts on a 3 day fast? I may do this to detox.

.

Yes, I'd just completed another one this week. This time, I did things a little different. I added probiotics on the last day, large amounts to load my system with beneficial flora in hopes they take dominance in my intestines. I'm still taking them now and will continue until I run out which should be in about a month. I thinking of doing another 3 day fast then and repeating the process. I'm also drinking bone broth.
Thanks for sharing your experience with Andractim. My guess is that Andractim can lower T4 which suggests suppression of the thyroid. I'm getting this idea that DHT isn't suppressive on HPTA directly but maybe rather indirectly through Thyroid hormone production. Hypothyroidism can cause low testosterone production and brain fog. This might have been what you experienced? So, another reason for me to get off Andractim. I will say though, I believe Andractim over these months have sensitized my body to DHT. It might be time to come off and see what develops.

silverstrand
08-07-2015, 12:43 PM
@Silverstrand



In August was my baseline with T levels of 340 and E2 at 26. LH and FSH were 3-4 each.

I then began taking cabergoline and 8 weeks later I was at T 670 E2 at 35 and LH/FSH the same

I then began taking .01 mg of letrozole per day and 4 weeks later I was at T 870, E2 at 19, LH at 10 and FSH at 5.

.

Something I noticed about your numbers - Letrozole definitely raised your test but look at your LH and FSH numbers. I've read that our testosterone levels can be in the high 800's and 900's while LH and FSH are more in our individual normal ranges - for you this is around 3 to 4. I believe inflimation of the body is preventing our testicles from producing hormones even with the correct amount of signaling from the brain. This is why fasting works so well, because inflimation is reduced when in a fasted state. Your use of Letrozole will have a rebound effect in that it might induce more Aromatase. Using resveratrol, I believe is the better way to help control E and something you can use to come off Letro. I'm sure guys on here are better able to comment like Jelisej on test numbers - Jeslisej what's your take?

Thanksgiving
08-07-2015, 01:02 PM
One letrozole pill a week quadruples fat men's testosterone level (http://www.ergo-log.com/letrozole.html)

Letrozole --A good read (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/pct-post-steroid-cycle-therapy/letrozole-good-read-579532.html)

And "But lower doses produced, not so impressive, but still remarkable effects. For example, a single intake of 0.02 mg which represents only 8% of the recommended daily dose increased testosterone level by 45% within 2 days. After a week, testosterone level was still high. Three weeks after this single intake, testosterone level was almost back to basal, almost because it is still somewhat elevated."

I think letrozole regulated my E2. I took such a small dose that it didn't crush it. By lowering my E2, this provided feedback to my LH to produce more and as a result both my LH and T increased

- - - Updated - - -

@silverstrand how much benefit have you noticed from the 3 day water fasts?

Anyone else with fasting experience able to chip in on this? I need to detox my body right now but it would be difficult to do an extended fast right now

Cdsnuts
08-07-2015, 01:05 PM
Ageing?
Stress in life, which sometimes cant be helped?
Hereditary diseases.... There are lot of situations that we are helpless,
in any case if person is not feeling well we cant hold a grudge agains him or judge him by his ilness (at least IMO), we can try to help him or not
sometimes they are astray and it takes long time to put them on right put, sometimes they get lost in widerness, but for us-
we can eiteher try to help them or not;

and how many people on this forum do what they should not do?
how many people use or have used stuff they should not?

"He who is without sin cast the first stone."

Aging is a natural progression of things, and gradual slowing down of certain processes. Not a life sentence of suffering. The reason why people age worse then others is because of the decisions they make when they are young. Lifestyle is the number one determinant into how well you will age. Just because you go up in chronological years doesn't mean you have to live a miserable existence.

Stress can be managed. You and you alone control your reaction to outside stimulus.

Hereditary diseases are used as an excuse for the most part. Do what your parents did (same inputs, same lifestyle choices) and you will suffer the same physical hereditary responses. You don't have to let these things express themselves by controlling your inputs correctly. Again, people like to use this as an excuse for their bad habits.

I hold no grudges, so I'm not sure what you mean there. What people choose to do is up to them. It may look ridiculous to others seeing as there is plenty of information out there for them to make better choices, but it ultimately falls on them. Believe me, I know all too well about helping others.

I agree with that quote....for no one is without "sin"

Thanksgiving
08-07-2015, 01:06 PM
I think Clomid is having a wild card effect. It doesn't seem to be synergistic with letrozole use. Low dose letrozole in my experience is relatively stabilizing but Clomid is by nature a weak estrogen. My pituitary (among other things is probably confused)

Another factor could be shbg. Both letrozole and DHT lower shbg but Clomid increases it. So I probably have super high test right now (still looking for blood test options down here to confirm) but also guessing my E2, shbg and now progesterone are high and my body is in an non-androgenic state

silverstrand
08-07-2015, 01:17 PM
Update:
I've made up my mind; I'm dropping Andractim for the purpose of supporting my Thyroid.
BTW, I've read a recovery story of an individual using a low dose of natural desiccated thyroid - he took just one grain in the morning for little over a year. When I first read this years ago, I thought it was a fluke but since then, I've learned so much and see how it is possible for Natural thyroid hormones to help the healing process. We have multiple system issues: Leaky Gut, Andrenal Fatigue, Hypothyroidism, Body Inflamation and Estrogen Dominance. Trying to solve one without addressing the others will bring you full circle and this is why its such a vicious cycle. I recently did some lab work and will see if NDT(Natural Desiccated Thyroid) makes sense in my case. The goal is to make sure my thyroid hormones are sufficient to heal my Gut, Andrenals, lower inflamation and support Testosterone production. This might be something you'd want to check out. The periodic Fasting and diet is to heal my gut problems that cause inflamation in the body. I can use resveratrol and low dose of AH for estrogen control. I'm also taking glandulars for my Andrenals, prostate, liver etc.

Thanksgiving
08-07-2015, 01:23 PM
I took a product called raw thyroid recently. For the first two weeks I felt fucking incredible but after that it started to make me more tired when taking it. I would suggest trying 5 days on 2 days off or 2 on 1 off

Hope this helps

silverstrand
08-07-2015, 01:24 PM
One letrozole pill a week quadruples fat men's testosterone level (http://www.ergo-log.com/letrozole.html)

Letrozole --A good read (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/pct-post-steroid-cycle-therapy/letrozole-good-read-579532.html)

And "But lower doses produced, not so impressive, but still remarkable effects. For example, a single intake of 0.02 mg which represents only 8% of the recommended daily dose increased testosterone level by 45% within 2 days. After a week, testosterone level was still high. Three weeks after this single intake, testosterone level was almost back to basal, almost because it is still somewhat elevated."

I think letrozole regulated my E2. I took such a small dose that it didn't crush it. By lowering my E2, this provided feedback to my LH to produce more and as a result both my LH and T increased

- - - Updated - - -

@silverstrand how much benefit have you noticed from the 3 day water fasts?

Anyone else with fasting experience able to chip in on this? I need to detox my body right now but it would be difficult to do an extended fast right now

Nothing out of this world on the water fasts but I do feel better each time. So, as long as I feel some benefit from them, I think it'd be a good think to incorporate on an almost monthly basis - 3 days is nothing. Start today and see how you respond in 3 days.
I read that same research and I'll tell you this, the Letro I purchased and the rest is staying in the trash.

Thanksgiving
08-07-2015, 01:24 PM
Also @cd did you see my question about holosync?

I listened to "The Dive" last night for 30 min. It just sounded like rain falling lol but was relaxing. I do believe in meditation and like ambient music

silverstrand
08-07-2015, 01:28 PM
I took a product called raw thyroid recently. For the first two weeks I felt fucking incredible but after that it started to make me more tired when taking it. I would suggest trying 5 days on 2 days off or 2 on 1 off

Hope this helps

Thanks, I appreciate it. I dont know yet if I'll need it. I take a thyroid glandular but all over the counter thyroid glandulars are Thyroxin free by law in the US. So the glandulars only have trace amounts of thyroid hormones.

Thanksgiving
08-07-2015, 01:40 PM
So here is my plan for those who have been following.

I'm cutting out everything eventually.

My goal now is to get back to an androgenic state and at least be able to fuck again.

So I'm keeping the letrozole for now for stability.

I got back on alphahard at 15 caps a day, this is similar to an androhard dose. 8am 7pm. (The best I felt in March was at 15 alphahard 15 alphamass and 450 mg dhea before I crashed due to the alphamass)

I took it yesterday and I feel much better today. Had a 60% nocturnal last night, still slightly shriveled today but feeling better.

Taking 1-2 caps per day of dhea passion for intimacy which also includes yohimbe. I want this right now for my mood and energy levels. I think my adrenals were fucked after stopping progesterone and my mood has been bad. Most of the DHEA should convert to T due to the AI effects of letro. I don't have pregnanolone on hand but have been taking lots of coconut oil.

Will take Cialis/Viagra as needed. Sex helps my mood and my ability to think clearly and I do better in my business and have more energy. Ironically pde5 inhibitors take away back and muscle aches due to increased blood flow.

Eventually will taper off the DHEA and perhaps get a solo low dose yohimbe supplement to maintain energy levels and after coming off DHEA will come off letro.

And then PCT the alphahard and go to solo Herbal T booster rotation.

Thanks again for the good discussion and feedback. I like sharing ideas with enlightened minds

- - - Updated - - -

Of I might just do a fast. Weighing my options right now

Thanksgiving
08-07-2015, 01:43 PM
I'm curious to know how my fucked up hormones will respond to a short fast. My concern with a short fast is a rebound effect whereas a longer fast would be a deeper cleanse and less chance of a rebound effect.

I think I need to achieve an androgenic state and slowly taper off the letro over a week or two before doing a fast.

Thanks for all the valuable insight. I love the positive helpful mind sets on this forum. It's refreshing

silverstrand
08-07-2015, 02:05 PM
I'm curious to know how my fucked up hormones will respond to a short fast. My concern with a short fast is a rebound effect whereas a longer fast would be a deeper cleanse and less chance of a rebound effect.

I think I need to achieve an androgenic state and slowly taper off the letro over a week or two before doing a fast.

Thanks for all the valuable insight. I love the positive helpful mind sets on this forum. It's refreshing

It would depend on your goals for the fast. For me, I want to reduce body inflamation, clear out bad bacteria, and cycle out my immune system. From my research, the minimum is 3 days. Longer durations might be better - I'm sure its a balance of benefits of a fast to the stress the body experiences. CD would have better knowledge on longer fasts. I'm not expecting my fast to correct hormone imbalance - just to assist it. A fast, might also be the best way to come off the drugs and help clear out your system - not sure how long that would take. 3 days isn't much and can be done easily even on a monthly basis.

Thanksgiving
08-07-2015, 02:59 PM
How do you feel sexually after a 3 day fast?

My goal is to get my erections back ASAP. I need them right now.

Jelisej
08-07-2015, 03:56 PM
My goal is to get my erections back ASAP. I need them right now.

Your list of priority is in wrong order, first- 1. you need to do basics first- decent diet, sleep, getting in good exercise routine
2. get into decent mental state, sort out anxiety and depression as much as you can
3. once you get to as good as it gets natural state, do bloodwork and then decide course of actions based on them


I never came across of anxious/depressed/paranoid etc... person with good libido, it just does not happen for various reasons (balance of neurotransmitters is one of them) Also for body itself libido is least priority- everything else needs to be functioning well- basically to able to reproduce body needs to survive first and whenever there is problem withing body libido will suffer

Libido is not animal that can be chased or caught, it needs to come back on its own- there is no medication really effective for curing libido, or that will permanently raise it. If you create good enviroment libido may come back.

Most important step is to accept that there will be longer period where sex/libido is not going to be good, and to work on basics, this is most simple step and most harder this is where 95% of people fail (regardless what kind of problem or disease is main cause)
you look as person who is trying to find magic pill and that kind of aproach is not going to win you battle.
Now, if you decide to get things right next few months we dont need to talk about science hormones or anything, just do basics first.
If you want to continue chasing your own tail, than good luck.

I'll leave you now for time being,
good luck, and all the best!

silverstrand
08-07-2015, 04:10 PM
How do you feel sexually after a 3 day fast?

My goal is to get my erections back ASAP. I need them right now.

If its because of a girl, you'll need to let that go man. Jelisej is right, no short term solution. But to answer your question, my noctural errections seem to be a lot stronger - then again, its only been a couple days. Also, I'd stay away from Cialis or Viagra - the inhibitors encourage PDE5 production in the body over time, making it harder to get an errection. The best substitute I know of so far is Muira puama - I think it is better than Horny Goat Weed. But I dont use it for sex, I use it only when I feel I can use extra blood flow to make sure everything stays well oxigenated down there. Plus, it lowers stress when having a boner on and off for almost 4 hours.

ToniBR
08-07-2015, 04:14 PM
Dude, coconut oil is full of 5ar inhibitors. You are really crazy.

silverstrand
08-07-2015, 04:56 PM
Dude, coconut oil is full of 5ar inhibitors. You are really crazy.

Yes!

Cdsnuts
08-07-2015, 05:22 PM
Dude, coconut oil is full of 5ar inhibitors. You are really crazy.

I use coconut oil regularly and have no problems with it now, or then.

Cdsnuts
08-07-2015, 06:22 PM
Also @cd did you see my question about holosync?

I listened to "The Dive" last night for 30 min. It just sounded like rain falling lol but was relaxing. I do believe in meditation and like ambient music
I don't understand how you have the product but don't know how to use it? It comes with full support and instructions along with a hotline you can call at anytime?

Thanksgiving
08-07-2015, 07:07 PM
Just an update:

I feel much better today. Mood and energy levels, and small signs of life down there.

Took 15 caps of alpha hard yesterday and today.

Took 25 mg of DHEA today which made a huge difference. The poll also included yohimbine.

I think coming of alpha hard last week made the progesterone worse as I experienced a dramatic crash in androgens.

Also to note: the progesterone I used was NOT bio-identical. All I could find down here was progestogel. Not being bio-identical increased the chances of side effects.

And yeah funny the effect girls have on you. Met a few girls down here and was so motivated to recover faster I got greedy with the progestogel.

Thanksgiving
08-11-2015, 11:33 PM
Thanks for all the help here.

Something I don't understand:

While on the progesterone cream I had rock hard erections at night, and my erections were harder and fuller, but then sometimes in the day my flaccid was shriveled way up and it couldn't get hard when I needed it even with Viagra. Before getting on it, things were consistent, erections about 80% reliably, always got hard with Viagra, Flaccid was always about the same, large healthy, not shriveled.

Why did progesterone cream cause such inconsistency?

entropy
08-12-2015, 03:15 AM
Thanks for all the help here.

Something I don't understand:

While on the progesterone cream I had rock hard erections at night, and my erections were harder and fuller, but then sometimes in the day my flaccid was shriveled way up and it couldn't get hard when I needed it even with Viagra. Before getting on it, things were consistent, erections about 80% reliably, always got hard with Viagra, Flaccid was always about the same, large healthy, not shriveled.

Why did progesterone cream cause such inconsistency?

We. Don't. Know. WE DON'T KNOW. This is why we don't advocate progesterone usage at all, we haven't got much of a clue why the stuff functions the way it does.

If you hadn't used progesterone I'd say you're describing low estrogen symptoms based upon the shrivelled, dead dick description. I've gotten the same sorta symptoms from res100 and I'm pretty sure Cdsnuts has the same sorta problems if he crushes his estrogen...

tallstraw
08-12-2015, 04:16 AM
Dude you're gonna fuck yourself up. Just tally your shit so we have a thread of what NOT to do whenever people invariably come here about PFS.

Brazilianguy
08-12-2015, 07:35 AM
I wouldn't mess with progesterone If I were you. Some say they give it to some people to decrease their sex drive. It works on estrogen But also on androgens, If you search you will see some use for prostate problems to make them shrink and I think you already know where it leads.

Thanksgiving
08-12-2015, 09:44 AM
Dude you're gonna fuck yourself up. Just tally your shit so we have a thread of what NOT to do whenever people invariably come here about PFS.
What's ironic is I was 90% recovered.

And then I had a setback and panicked. That's my only regret.

It's hard to explain. I had restored my quality of life so much over time and it was hard to deal with a regression.

But thanks for the encouragement

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -


We. Don't. Know. WE DON'T KNOW. This is why we don't advocate progesterone usage at all, we haven't got much of a clue why the stuff functions the way it does.

If you hadn't used progesterone I'd say you're describing low estrogen symptoms based upon the shrivelled, dead dick description. I've gotten the same sorta symptoms from res100 and I'm pretty sure Cdsnuts has the same sorta problems if he crushes his estrogen...

That could be true. And progesterone is known to combat estrogen

- - - Updated - - -


I wouldn't mess with progesterone If I were you. Some say they give it to some people to decrease their sex drive. It works on estrogen But also on androgens, If you search you will see some use for prostate problems to make them shrink and I think you already know where it leads.

Upon doing more research, progesterone is very similar to androgens. I suspect that it is binding to the same receptor and thus it affected the DHT and androgens I had restored

silverstrand
08-12-2015, 11:13 AM
What's ironic is I was 90% recovered.

And then I had a setback and panicked. That's my only regret.

It's hard to explain. I had restored my quality of life so much over time and it was hard to deal with a regression.

But thanks for the encouragement

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -



That could be true. And progesterone is known to combat estrogen

- - - Updated - - -



Upon doing more research, progesterone is very similar to androgens. I suspect that it is binding to the same receptor and thus it affected the DHT and androgens I had restored

You are making assumptions and it's hard not too while suffering from PFS when something works temporarily. What we do know is that the body was put under a tremdous amount of stress when taking Finasteride (for an unnaturally long period of time generally) so the body responded appropriately by coping the best it can. I believe your Progesterone use saw some temporary gains because you introduced a new stress element which forced the body to transition again; however, still in stress mode. What you felt was the transition which you took as "Recovery". To get better, the experiments need to stop and a full body approach to alleviating the body's long term stress response. To let you know, I've dropped everything, including Androhard and Aromasin. At this point, I believe they work counter to my goals and I now realize, these compounds are not necessary for recovery. Taking of hormones will only cause more imblance in the body, and hence more stress. The ONLY hormone I think could be utilized is possibly NDT - Natural Desicated Thyroid hormone while all other aspects of recovery in place. I do believe NDT can help speed up the recovery process. An absolute must are herbs, and not just T-Boosting herbs. Also, glandulars are a must such as prostate, liver, adrenal, thyroid, pancreas, brain etc.. - at least for me they are.
I think as a PFS sufferer, we look to correct the problem of low T directly but from experience and research this appears to be wrong. An indirect approach is the only way to go. For instances, I've said this before but your test numbers show you with a T score of around 800 with a low dose of Letro. What I also noticed were your LH and FSH numbers screaming at your nutts to produce test while on Letro. Your LH had to more than double/triple just for you to produce an additional 200 ngs of Test. Do this seem right to you? In reality, you should have high T with LH/FSH numbers around your normal which I take as 3 or 4. Letro is then working against you because your body is now stressed for lack of Estrogen and your nutts are being hit with abnormally large amounts of LH and FSH which might lead to desensitization. You can’t just focus on T. You use letro because you noticed your E going up as a result of Caber and while you benefited some from increased T, you’re body is still in stress mode so its fighting back by increasing E and very likely Cortisol which kills T. The problem we have is Chronic Stress and you can’t solve this by experimenting with hormones – this will keep your body perpetually in stress.
Now that you have used progesterone, it will take several weeks to clear. Stop the use, avoid Alcohol at all costs, eat clean, and cycle herbs – this is what those who have succeded at what you are trying to accomplish did – no need to reinvent the wheel. Let go and follow their examples.

silverstrand
08-12-2015, 11:18 AM
I use coconut oil regularly and have no problems with it now, or then.

I'm glad you made a comment here - I love coconut but have avoid it for more than 2 years because I though it can inhibit 5ar. I took another look and the high saturated fat is perfect for hormone production. Last night I bought some coconut oil and enjoyed some. Thanks!

silverstrand
08-16-2015, 01:17 PM
Libido is not animal that can be chased or caught, it needs to come back on its own- there is no medication really effective for curing libido, or that will permanently raise it. If you create good enviroment libido may come back



Thsee words really altered how I view my situation. I came across it again, it's striking how you might need to read/hear things several times before fully sinking in.
Btw, I believe I found this issue for my sleeping disorder and muscle twitching. I believe it's brain inflammation. To help, I've been taking therapeutic amounts of Fish oil, 3000mg plus, high omega 3. This is my 3rd day and my muscle twitching has subsided a good deal and I feel more calm at night, though falling asleep is still difficult. Still, it's one piece of the puzzle. If you guys are having muscle twitching or sleep dispurbances, try large amounts of Fish oil and provide feedback to see if this is common among us.

Cdsnuts
08-16-2015, 02:31 PM
Thsee words really altered how I view my situation. I came across it again, it's striking how you might need to read/hear things several times before fully sinking in.
Btw, I believe I found this issue for my sleeping disorder and muscle twitching. I believe it's brain inflammation. To help, I've been taking therapeutic amounts of Fish oil, 3000mg plus, high omega 3. This is my 3rd day and my muscle twitching has subsided a good deal and I feel more calm at night, though falling asleep is still difficult. Still, it's one piece of the puzzle. If you guys are having muscle twitching or sleep dispurbances, try large amounts of Fish oil and provide feedback to see if this is common among us.

Check your mineral intake as well. Getting a couple good doses of magnesium always did the trick for me.

silverstrand
08-16-2015, 02:51 PM
Check your mineral intake as well. Getting a couple good doses of magnesium always did the trick for me.

Thanks Cd. Will do. I just purchased Dr Rons Cal 1000 and 500 Magnesium. I started taking Magnesium 500 mg at night about a week ago but I'll look to increase that dose now.

Jelisej
08-16-2015, 03:47 PM
Thsee words really altered how I view my situation. I came across it again, it's striking how you might need to read/hear things several times before fully sinking in.
Btw, I believe I found this issue for my sleeping disorder and muscle twitching. I believe it's brain inflammation. To help, I've been taking therapeutic amounts of Fish oil, 3000mg plus, high omega 3. This is my 3rd day and my muscle twitching has subsided a good deal and I feel more calm at night, though falling asleep is still difficult. Still, it's one piece of the puzzle. If you guys are having muscle twitching or sleep dispurbances, try large amounts of Fish oil and provide feedback to see if this is common among us.

Magnesium is a must have as relaxing muscles is one of its tasks in body, and adding taurine is good idea as they work in synergy plus taurine has a lot of benefits on its own,
magnesium also does improve sleeping quality.
Another thing that probably is not case here- but electrolyte inbalance also can cause muscle issues, sometimes this happens when people take too much water.

silverstrand
08-16-2015, 05:22 PM
Magnesium is a must have as relaxing muscles is one of its tasks in body, and adding taurine is good idea as they work in synergy plus taurine has a lot of benefits on its own,
magnesium also does improve sleeping quality.
Another thing that probably is not case here- but electrolyte inbalance also can cause muscle issues, sometimes this happens when people take too much water.

I'll take a look at taurine and see if I can pick up some at the nutritional store.
Its pretty amazing in that I've been dealing with muscle twitching for 3 years now and in just 3 short days of high doses of Omega 3, the twitching has largely disappeared. The twitching wasn't from an estrogen/androgen imbalance, it wasn't from low testosterone, it wasn't from androgen depravation, it wasn't from low dopamine possibly signaling parkinsons, etc... but from inflammation in the brain. Amazing, really amazing. I truly think, my body suffered massive trauma causing inflamation and my andrenals gave out, along with other systems to keep me in cronic state of stress/inflamation. Btw, I've also added Colustrom to my diet, as this has the ability to suppliment IGF-1, tons of minerals/vitamins/enzymes, rebuild GI track, and also assist in shifting my body away from an inflammed state ( I cant remember where I read the shifting away from inflamation but if I can find the link, I will post it)

Cdsnuts
08-16-2015, 05:46 PM
How old are you? Its not early Parkinson's dude. That's just one of the long list of symptoms of PFS. I had it, other guys have it, it just comes with the territory. Typically from my experience it's an imbalance in your mineral profile. But it could also be related to lower the normal dopamine levels. Both can be fixed by staying the course on a healthful regimen. Maybe try L dopa/mucuna and see if that helps as well.

silverstrand
08-16-2015, 05:56 PM
How old are you? Its not early Parkinson's dude. That's just one of the long list of symptoms of PFS. I had it, other guys have it, it just comes with the territory. Typically from my experience it's an imbalance in your mineral profile. But it could also be related to lower the normal dopamine levels. Both can be fixed by staying the course on a healthful regimen. Maybe try L dopa/mucuna and see if that helps as well.

I just turned 33 a few days ago. I have mucuna in my ever growing inventory of herbs and suppliments, it's a couple cabinets worth now lol. I found another herb that is like mucuna in boosting dopamine Yuan Zhi Polygala. I've used these in the past; I think they'll be better used now so I'll take them, cycle them, early in the day. My priority now is to reduce brain inflammation in hopes that my sleep will improve. Once my sleep gets better, it should make the healing process so much easier and more effective.

Thanksgiving
08-17-2015, 03:31 AM
@silver how do you know it's brain inflammation?

Also I read in another thread that you once took alpha mass. How did that go for you?

entropy
08-17-2015, 05:36 AM
How old are you? Its not early Parkinson's dude. That's just one of the long list of symptoms of PFS. I had it, other guys have it, it just comes with the territory. Typically from my experience it's an imbalance in your mineral profile. But it could also be related to lower the normal dopamine levels. Both can be fixed by staying the course on a healthful regimen. Maybe try L dopa/mucuna and see if that helps as well.

Seconded. The twitches were unbareably annoying at first, I had some really gnarly eye twitches for a long time, like nystagmus level shit.

silverstrand
08-17-2015, 10:37 AM
Seconded. The twitches were unbareably annoying at first, I had some really gnarly eye twitches for a long time, like nystagmus level shit.

Its very annoying, plus it felt like it'd act up more when trying to sleep. This would then raise my anxiety and make it even harded to relax. I still feel some twitching but it really has calmed down a lot and in such a short time.

silverstrand
08-17-2015, 10:40 AM
@silver how do you know it's brain inflammation?

Also I read in another thread that you once took alpha mass. How did that go for you?

I believe its brain inflamation for several reasons:
Here's the short of it,
My hormones were messed up by 5ar inhibition - leading to up-regulation of estrogen
Increased estrogen, increased the binding hormones through the liver
Increase binding hormones, lowered free bio-available hormones including thyroid hormones
The lowered hormones, caused issues with the GI track - causing leaking gut
All along, my body was constantly under stress leading to Adrenal Fatigue - also, 5ar inhibition would cause issues in the Adrenal Cortex
Finally, toxins were allowed to pass through the gut in ever larger quantities until, bam, system collapse and cytokines flooded my body.
Over time, the blood brain barrier was weakened and toxins were allowed to pass through. Half the brains cells are immune system cells and over long periods of time of activity, they become toxic.

So my brain is on Fire. Its scary because this is brain damage. If my brain isn't functioning correctly, how can I expect the rest of my body to work.

I'll have to address multiple systems at once but it can be done. First, the Gut needs to be healed - gotta stop the toxins coming into the body, this is why fasting works to reduce inflamation throughout the whole body. Next, heal the brain by reducing inflamation. Also, use glandulars such as Thyroid and Andrenal Cortex to assist the process of repair (thyroid) and reduction of inflamation (Adrenal - cortisol). Testosterone/DHT production is last on the list but still, controling estrogen should help by lowing the binding hormones.

This is why its so hard to heal from this condition - everything gets FUCKED UP!

I never had a post finansteride rebound - just crash.

I tried Alpha Mass; I think at most 2 tabs per day for about a month. It killed what labido I had at the time. 1-Test is a great muscle builder but highly suppressive. I thought since it was a derrivative of DHT and non-aromatizing it might help. It didn't. If I understood what I've outlined above beforehand, I would have never taken Alpha-Mass

Jelisej
08-17-2015, 04:29 PM
You made this into Steven Spielberg type scenario,
all you need to do is health lifestyle, adapt some things according to your body needs (like adding more minerals, probiotics etc)
and to do some tests.
Speculations are not helpful to you in any way.





So my brain is on Fire. Its scary because this is brain damage. If my brain isn't functioning correctly, how can I expect the rest of my body to work.


1449

silverstrand
08-17-2015, 06:10 PM
You made this into Steven Spielberg type scenario,
all you need to do is health lifestyle, adapt some things according to your body needs (like adding more minerals, probiotics etc)
and to do some tests.
Speculations are not helpful to you in any way.


More like a Steven King senario - this bitch is a horror story.

Cdsnuts
08-17-2015, 06:13 PM
More like a Steven King senario - this bitch is a horror story.
Yes, it is. But the groundwork has been laid for you to figure out a way of putting down the book. What you are doing, is being done needlessly. The only thing you should be putting your mind power towards is staying on a healthful routine that has already been created and documented by many before you. Anything more is taking away from energy that you could be putting into recovery

Jelisej
08-17-2015, 06:19 PM
More like a Steven King senario - this bitch is a horror story.

Lot of horror stories have happy ending, and ending to this one largely depends on you- and this kind of stories just makes it worse,
Leave scary stories for children, lets be practical and proactive.
Many times things were said about healthy lifestyle, sleep etc...
CD nuts repeated bazillion times same old stuff of which majority is specifically adapted for PFS sufferers, in which most if not all these problems you mentioned are solved.

silverstrand
08-17-2015, 06:23 PM
Yes, it is. But the groundwork has been laid for you to figure out a way of putting down the book. What you are doing, is being done needlessly. The only thing you should be putting your mind power towards is staying on a healthful routine that has already been created and documented by many before you. Anything more is taking away from energy that you could be putting into recovery

You are very right.

Cdsnuts
08-17-2015, 06:27 PM
You are very right.
YOU are the author. You get to choose how the story ends.

silverstrand
08-17-2015, 06:33 PM
YOU are the author. You get to choose how the story ends.

I REALLY want to start living the happy ending.
Its been so long, I dont even remember how it feels to be healthy, 9 years; its crushing.

Anyway, I'm staying focused.

Thanks guys, I do appreacate everything.

Thanksgiving
08-19-2015, 06:49 PM
I want to update those who have been following along and those who are in similar situations. Normally I haven't been logging but I want to help.

I made a recent DISCOVERY that brought some clarity even though I feel like an idiot.

Brief timeline
March and May 2014 - water fast of 30 days followed by 60 day refeed and then another 10 day fast
June 2014-March 2015 following CDnuts routine exactly substituting alpha hard for Androhard, begin Feeling GREAT but not all the way there. I would feel great on Alpha hard and herbal boosters but I HATED PCT for the few weeks of the cycle I was on DAA. It upset my stomach and I felt depressed often.
February 2015 - started having sex again with Viagra
End of March 2015 - began the DHT phase but this time I added to the alpha hard with alpha mass and dhea and letrozole. And holy fuck I felt 100% for a week. I had sex 8 times in one night and could consistently do 6-7. Wow I love life.

HERE IS MY MISTAKE - after two weeks of the protocol I switched the DHEA I was taking. I had been taking pure DHEA. After two weeks on the protocol I ran out and switched to a new DHEA plus PROPRIETARY BLEND. A week after the switch I crashed hard. At the time I contributed that on Alpha Mass.

At this time I was in relationships and panicked. At first I tried PCT and afterwards coming off everything but then crashed harder. I began taking all kinds of shit including clomid and LDN

This went on for a while and I just got back on Alpha Hard mixed with all the other bullshit. I continued taking the DHEA WITH PROPRIETARY BLEND.

I went from reading 3 books a week and working out 7 days a week to not reading and working out twice a week.

I got to a point where I was kind of stable but something wasn't right so I came off DHEA WITH PROPRIETARY BLEND. I crashed again with energy levels and thought something was up with Adrenals. So I took progesterone for 9 days. Day 1 I felt 100%. Then began feeling worse and crashed and at that time I made the thread.

CRASHED IS A DRAMATIC TERM. It translates to "me making bad decisions and not being patient."

During this time I researched everything. I noticed the DHEA PROPRIETARY BLEND affected me differently than pure DHEA but the ingredients weren't listed. Keep in mind I was taking high dose of pure DHEA, 400-600 mg when I was feeling 100%. I contacted the company and asked what was in the proprietary blend. For every 25 mg of DHT in the proprietary blend, there was 100 mg of saw palmetto. I WAS UNKNOWINGLY TAKING 1800 mg of saw palmetto daily. That's a huge amount. In addition it contained nettle root.

So basically I fucked myself there.

Since the progesterone cream I have gone back to cleansing and back to CD routine full time.

I came off progesterone clomid, letro, naltrexone, all forms of DHEA, and haven't taken cabergoline in a while although I may resume the caber because it seems to help.

Right now I have been fasting one day a week (cleanses some and boosts GH)

I am only taking alpha hard at 15 per day and vitamin D 10k Iu per day to try to restore an androgenic state. I also need to prevent estrogen rebound after coming off clomid and letro and the DHT helps.

Lately I haven't been able to fuck, have had no energy, and insomnia. I usually fall asleep at 7 pm for two hours and then can't sleep until 6 or 7 am. Last night I did take melatonin to force myself to sleep at 2 since I have been running on empty and had to wake up early. Also I have extreme fatigue and very aching muscles and bones.

But I at least feel like I got the problem figured out, now it's just a matter of time. Going to stay on alpha hard for a while until I am no longer concerned about estrogen rebound and this time for PCT I am going to jump right into the herbs along with ReBoot from forerunner. I know that by getting back on CDs protocol I will feel better again with time.

My own worse enemy right now. Need to treat myself better. All I can say is do your diligence with everything you put in your body. If you see the word proprietary blend, call the company and figure out what that shit really is. Can't believe I did this to myself after being almost completely recovered. But at least I understand why that happened. I had been so confused how I could just crash again in April but now it makes perfect sense.

Thanks for your continued support.

Thanksgiving
08-19-2015, 06:51 PM
Also, any suggestions on the cause and cure for achy muscles and bones?

It doesn't feel like I've been working out a lot, and it my joints don't hurt. It just feels like a dull ache especially in my biceps and quads and calves.

Cdsnuts
08-19-2015, 07:09 PM
I find it hard to believe that you did two 30 day water fasts a month apart from each other. A proper month-long water only fast is going to take you more than one month to recover from and in no shape or form should you jump into another 30 day fast so soon after completing the first one. Seeing as I have successfully completed four water only fasts over the course of many years, the timeline you mention here doesn't make sense. I just want to be clear here that the definition of a water only fast is just that ....water only for a specified time period.

I can tell you from experience there is no way you're going to want to fast again for a whole other month after successfully fasting for a month prior. No way. You're not going to have the physical reserves nor the mental stamina to be able to do it

Something's not adding up here bud. A month long water fast is no easy task. On the contrary it's a very monumental task to say the least

Thanksgiving
08-19-2015, 08:43 PM
I find it hard to believe that you did two 30 day water fasts a month apart from each other. A proper month-long water only fast is going to take you more than one month to recover from and in no shape or form should you jump into another 30 day fast so soon after completing the first one. Seeing as I have successfully completed four water only fasts over the course of many years, the timeline you mention here doesn't make sense. I just want to be clear here that the definition of a water only fast is just that ....water only for a specified time period.

I can tell you from experience there is no way you're going to want to fast again for a whole other month after successfully fasting for a month prior. No way. You're not going to have the physical reserves nor the mental stamina to be able to do it

Something's not adding up here bud. A month long water fast is no easy task. On the contrary it's a very monumental task to say the least

You're absolutely right it doesn't add up.

Because you either didn't read carefully or misinterpreted my data, or perhaps I wasn't clear.

I had surgery February 27 and fasted for the next 30 DAYS beginning February 28. WATER ONLY. And then a 4 day juice refeed. And yeah I went from 220 to 170. I ended my fast March 28. I couldn't do anything r after the surgery so I fasted.

I had another surgery May 27 and did a 10 DAY water fast with a 4 day refeed.

So I did

30 day water fast
60 days eating
10 day water fast

I'm not trying to prove to anyone that I did a fast. I don't give a shit if you believe me or not, it doesn't matter. I'm not a keyboard hero. I'm willing to post my journals if it would help anyone who is thinking of fasting.

And yeah it was difficult but it wasn't so bad after a few days. I did it all at home because at the time I couldn't afford to go to a fancy institution. But it is important to be educated. Every day I spent researching fasting and watching other fasting journals on YouTube so I knew what to expect.

I wasn't in any danger except that I got a little light headed when I stood up.

Does anyone have advice on the question I asked about dull aches?

I'm posting all this information in attempt to be educational for those who might have similar questions or concerns.

Thanksgiving
08-19-2015, 08:51 PM
Water fast journal

Should I post a separate thread also in the fin thread so it's easier to find?

Day 1
Not notice that much
Want to eat out of routine
Feel pretty good

Day 2
Arms are sore at night
Hungry but not craving

Day 3
Legs are sore at night
Sinuses stuffy
Craving food and hungry

Day 4
Back is sore at night
Very hungry and cravings
Senses are more sensitive

Day 5
Very hungry
Hardest day
Annoying hunger
Sweet ketosis taste
Lots of oils
Difficult to sleep the following night

Day 6
Feel my intestines, prostate area cleansing at night
Legs sore at night
Still hungry but not as much
Still oily
Much more thirsty

Day 7
Getting a lot of things done
Determined to eat better
Sinuses slightly stuffy


Day 8
Woke up very focused
Very tired afterwards
Sleeping a lot
More determination in lumosity
Light cravings but not hungry
Studying food to eat better
Mouth is dry and very thirsty

Day 9
Tongue is very coated
Fainting
Determination to get tversity working
Lungs feel much cleaner
Senses are much more sensitive
More thirst

Day 10
Neck sore at night
Body has less energy but is healing more
Low blood pressure-close to fainting
Fatigue
Puffy eyes

Day 11
Very dry mouth
Much fatigue
Slight nausea
Stuffy sinuses
Sore in legs, lower back, lower abs, groin, arms
Bloodshot and puffy eyes
Fever
Extremely sensitive feeling
Surges of anger/depression
Pale face

Day 12
Random bursts of energy
Runny nose
Dry mouth
Very hard time sleeping tonight
Slow speech

Day 13
Feeling very good
Still light headed
Dry mouth and thirsty
Slightly stuffy nose

Day 14
Dry mouth
Lots of energy
Stomach ache
Pale complexion
Face very defined and lean

Day 15
Much energy
Stomach ache and healing
More blood flow to all areas of body
Feel prostate healing
Cold feet

Day 16
Less swelling prostate
Energy levels
Thinking of food and miss it
Skin is changing
Drinking lots of water
Very sharp senses
Cold feet

Day 17
Skin is changing more and is dry
Less swelling prostate
Very sharp senses
Annoying hunger
Body is adapted to fast, have energy
Burn scars are healing
Feel sensation in liver

Day 18
Lethargic
Feel the cleansing
Brain is foggy and cleansing
More skin cleansing
Emotionally flat
Dry throat

Day 19
Sleep
Foggy
Emotionally frustrated
Hungry

Day 20
Lethargy
Lots of sleeping

Day 21
Mouth not as coated
Fatigue
Muscle sore
Short of breath
Not as much water

Day 22
Tired
Just want to relax
Very emotional at times
Had severe panic attack
One fainting episode
Blood pressure very low

Day 23
Very much fatigue - couch lock
Thought process is much quieter, I have had a few mild mood swings, I think my brain is healing
Slight sporadic stomach aches
Mouth is still coated but not as much
Skin is really soft and scars are healing
Some muscle soreness and very little energy
Kind of hungry
Short of breath
Joints kind of sore (knees back ankles)
Anxiety before bed
Hard time sleeping
Strange dreams (last few days)

Day 24
Lower back/grown pain
Foggy brain
Lethargy
Thinking of food but not ready for it
Mucus discharge
Clearer skin
Urine smells

Day 25
Strange taste in mouth
Night hunger
Considerable anxiety
Skin is clearing up

Day 26
Urine smells
Joint pain
Tongue very coated and bumps on back of tongue
Slight nausea
Runny nose
Very strong hunger

Day 27
Urine foamy
Stomach hurts
Hunger pains can't sleep
Thinking of food all day
Some more energy

Day 28
Little to sleep last night
Stomach hurts
Stomach acid
Sweet taste in mouth
Tongue less coated

Day 29
Little sleep
Weird feeling in stomach
Slightly light headed
More energy

Day 30
Good energy but need to recover
Tongue coated but not as much

Day 1 Refeed
I feel ready
I feel great, a thankful
Hunger and appetite returning
Drinking all diluted juice, 3 blender fulls, sitting on couch just drinking juice

Day 2 Refeed
I feel really GREAT
Strong energy levels
Eyes bright
Skin clear and glowing
Tongue not coated
Still slightly light headed but noticing changes
Drink 5 blender fulls of juice, eat a few blueberries and 3 bites banana
Feel sleep coming easier and body returning to schedule
In a very good mood
Can feel new brain connections

Day 3 Refeed
Feel great
Eating raw fruits
Lots of juice
Bowels "working"

Day 4 Refeed
Wake up super hard
Feel great
Appetite
Digestion working again
Lots of juice
Eating lots of raw fruits
Slight light headed but improving
Energy returning
Physical activities, moving acquisitions, carry groceries, run across street

Day 5
Feel great in morning
Begin nystatin probiotics enzymes
Eat turkey and vegetables and banana. Too spicy, too much food, get bloated, feel really bad, back and hip hurt, standing on heels, too heavy, yuck

Day 6 refeeding
Feel better, eat shake and small amount of turkey guacamole in morning, fruits and salmon in afternoon, had a large meal in evening and yogurt, tolerated well
Ate more food my visiting family made when get home and get bloated and feel bad,
Took double dose of nystatin probiotics enzymes
Woke up feeling itchy after 4 hours of sleep but feel better and itching went away, reaction to nystatin/lactose probably

Day 7 refeeding
Morning drinking juice and fruits
Ate tons of potatoes turkey vegetables and fruits 3 pm...stuffed
Feeling pretty good once it digested
Had lots lots lots of frozen yogurt, still feeling good but bloated, carb backloads
Increased enzymes probiotics today

Day 8 refeeding
Morning juice and banana
Lunch Indian buffet limited carbs but had fruits and naan
Huge huge huge meal at Mexican restaurant
Lots lots lots of frozen yogurt
Feeling tired and gross before bed, also lack of sleep
Increased probiotics and enzymes and nystatin is 6 MU

Day 9 refeeding
Very interesting dream last night, documented
Woke up 3 times to piss
Dick hard as a rock!
Eating good nutrition
Spontaneous half boner
Emotions up and down

Day 10 refeeding
Wet dream in morning
Mostly juice, too bloated lately
Wet dream afternoon nap
Emotions up and down
Headache

Day 11 refeeding
Wet dream morning
So bloated still
Sprints on beach, low energy
Up an down on libido

Day 12 refeeding
Spontaneous erection aroused by a young woman
Had yogurt twice

Day 13 refeeding
Wet dream middle of night
Woke up hard as fuck
Dick so hard all day
Libido sky high
Taking Acai berry to help reduce bloating
Feeling very creative

Sunday
Feeling good
Juice and yogurt fasting
Headache and tired

Monday
Juice and yogurt fasting
Feeling pretty good
Very motivated

Tuesday
Feeling really good
Sprints feel better
Began taking test boosters Bulbine
Began eating again 4 pm after yogurt/juice fasting in morning
Less bloating

Wednesday
Woke up super hard and had vivid dreams
Catuaba bark
Ate dairy and grains today mixed feelings
More bloating again will see how feel in morning

Thursday
Wake up hard as tree trunk
Cordyceps
Super horny
Random half erections
Eating too much gluten dairy gives headache and bloating in afternoon
Drank one beer

Friday
60 push-ups, back extensions
Deer antler velvet
Hard as fuck during nap

Saturday
Had nocturnals but no morning
Dodder seed
Horny as fuck all day
Pain in lower left leg last night similar to day. 5-6 of water fast, also slight signs of plantar fasciitis returning in right foot
Weigh 210 lbs

Sunday
So fucking horny
Drink wine eat gluten eat ice cream feel mostly ok
Dopa mucuna

Monday
Really horny
Thinking
Mood is up and down
Ipriflavonene
More orgasms lately

Tuesday
Woke up decently hard
Emotionally flat/up and down
Libido but no erections
Too much masturbating lately
Bloated and gassy lately
Maca
Begin cabergoline

Wednesday
Bloated and gassy
Energy decent for workout and swim
Body still recovering from surgery
Need to strengthen abs to heal hernia
Feel so so so fucking horny today
Lots of orgasms
Diet finally right with carb back loading
Taking Massularia
Also took caffeine based energy supplement to reduce bloat
Super horny, functioning returning

Thanksgiving
08-19-2015, 08:54 PM
I was actually going to fast longer but I had family visiting. It actually fucked up my refeed and as you can see I ate too much too fast. I typically don't drink but I also had a beer and a glass of wine about two weeks after the fast.

I didn't keep a journal of the 10 day fast, sorry

Thanksgiving
08-19-2015, 09:01 PM
Also in reference to my timeline post on the last page,

I got on fin November 2010 and came off in April 2011
I had a really really bad summer and was so depressed and felt the need to do something
From August -November 2011 I had limited success with Clomid and Epistane but then got worse.

From November 2011-February 2012 I used progesterone cream but then stopped I can't remember when exactly
March 2012-April 2012 used sustain alpha when I could afford it
May 2012 - August 2012 used DAA and Triazole/Erase
September 2012-February 2013 added Diesel Test
March 2013 can't recall what I used, I was broke, I think just protein powder
August 2013 began using cabergoline
October 2013 added progesterone cream to caber
December 2013 added low dose letrozole to progesterone cream and caber, feel great!
January 2014/February 2014 added andractim and seligiline but started going backwards
And then came off everything for the fast

Again not all these were smart moves, but is purely for education of those in similar predicament

Cdsnuts
08-20-2015, 05:59 AM
You're absolutely right it doesn't add up.

Because you either didn't read carefully or misinterpreted my data, or perhaps I wasn't clear.

I had surgery February 27 and fasted for the next 30 DAYS beginning February 28. WATER ONLY. And then a 4 day juice refeed. And yeah I went from 220 to 170. I ended my fast March 28. I couldn't do anything r after the surgery so I fasted.

I had another surgery May 27 and did a 10 DAY water fast with a 4 day refeed.

So I did

30 day water fast
60 days eating
10 day water fast

I'm not trying to prove to anyone that I did a fast. I don't give a shit if you believe me or not, it doesn't matter. I'm not a keyboard hero. I'm willing to post my journals if it would help anyone who is thinking of fasting.

And yeah it was difficult but it wasn't so bad after a few days. I did it all at home because at the time I couldn't afford to go to a fancy institution. But it is important to be educated. Every day I spent researching fasting and watching other fasting journals on YouTube so I knew what to expect.

I wasn't in any danger except that I got a little light headed when I stood up.

Does anyone have advice on the question I asked about dull aches?

I'm posting all this information in attempt to be educational for those who might have similar questions or concerns.

It wasn't clear the way it was written....or it wasn't clear to me. Either way it makes more sense now. Yeah...too much too fast on the refeed. But you cleansed and you see the power and why it's part of the program. That's the important part. And yes, I believe this is now a fin related post.....

Regardless you should be proud of your accomplishment. Most people think they'll starve if they miss lunch. This is something that is extremely helpful and is something that most people can't do.

5 alpha victim
08-25-2015, 09:28 PM
I was actually going to fast longer but I had family visiting. It actually fucked up my refeed and as you can see I ate too much too fast. I typically don't drink but I also had a beer and a glass of wine about two weeks after the fast.

I didn't keep a journal of the 10 day fast, sorry

Dude seriously that's very impressive that you did this for thirty days. I feel like if you can do that you can do anything.

I'm into this protocol pretty deep but I only lasted seven days on a water/low amount of juice fast. I went from 190 to 179 pounds in just seven days and could not put up with the thought of going below 179 inorder to complete my goal of 14 days.

hopefully you can beat this thing. You dam well have what it takes

Thanksgiving
09-07-2015, 05:16 PM
Update

August 11 I took clomid and letrozole for the last time
August 12 I fasted with only water for a day
August 13 I got back on alpha hard to restore androgenic activity and help lessen any estrogen rebound
August 17 I did a one day fast again
August 20 I began taking tribulus high dose
September 2 my new herbs arrived and I stopped tribulus and began a 7 day rotation
September 4 I water fasted again

So recovering from the whole progesterone fuck up but I have been able to have sex for the last two weeks. So that feels really good. The herbs are helping and the DHT is too.

So in summary my regimen has been alpha hard, herbal boosters, and 10,000-20,000 iu of vitamin D3 daily. Just recently I added in boron, magnesium, zinc, folic acid as well.

But I have been getting puffy nipples, I suspect my estrogen began rebounding about a week ago. Last night I realized holy fuck I have gyno again.

I had gyno surgery 18 months ago but they left a tiny amount as usual so my chest wouldn't cave in.

And I am having anxiety now because I'm pretty sure it's definitely gyno. I am really lean. There is no really hard lump but a number of small chunks and nipples really puffy and chest is starting to square off. I'm fucking angry because I thought I had this taken care of.

Regardless I want to nip this gyno in the bud! I meet with the surgeon who did the surgery in two weeks to see about scar removal and will talk with him about a revision but I hope it isn't necessary.

I'm really paranoid right now. I started taking forerunner reboot at 12 caps a day, it contains IC3 and 5 mg per cap of the suicide aromatase inhibitor that's in PES erase which has 75 mg in one cap. Also I began taking 200 mg DIM and 400 mg resveratol. Is this enough to combat estrogen rebound?

I suspect that my estrogen rebound is especially bad since I came off clomid AND letro. With Clomid I know it elevated my estrogen levels and know that the receptors aren't blocked they are probably stimulates easily, and in addition I suspect my aromatase enzyme is rebounding strongly after being on letro for so long.

I was hoping that high dose alpha hard was enough to combat the estrogen but it rebounded strong regardless.

I wish I had some Aromasin on my hands but I can't get it until I am back in the states.

douglasmich
09-09-2015, 12:14 AM
your losing the battle messing with hormones imo. I had 100% reversal of PFS from using clomid and adex but i ended up crashing myself. I was on TRT at the time so it had nothing to do with clomid boosting T. Something to do with blocking the estrogen receptor somehow switched on my 5AR and i felt DHT again. Voice dropped within a few hours. Progesterone worked for me when i had a serm in my system, but not without. I crashed on progesterone and im still recovering 3 months after.

Thanksgiving
09-09-2015, 12:50 AM
From what I understand, if you block aromatase, Testosterone either remains testosterone or converts to DHT.

Fin essentially did the opposite. It blocked T to DHT so Testosterone either remained testosterone or converted to estradiol.

It's restoring homeostasis in these pathways, coaching our body back into an androgenic state as you mentioned.

I agree, been messing with hormones too much. I was making steady progress with a simple routine until March when I got greedy, crashed, panicked lol.

I have things under control now and back on a simple routing but this estrogen rebound is a bitch.

I got back on letrozole today at a very low dose to halt the progression of gynecomastia. I will have Aromasin in two weeks and then I can safely taper off letrozole slowly and hopefully without estrogen rebound

5 alpha victim
09-11-2015, 09:06 PM
Thanksgiving,

You should just come off of everything and go right on the ultimate stack from wicked sups and run a nice light PCT.

After your month PCT run a month or 2 of rotating Natty T boosters. And than take it from there.

It sounds like you had this but then added in way to much random stuff

Thanksgiving
09-12-2015, 01:38 PM
The plan is to restore back to baseline.

I felt the best after when on only herbal booster rotation after a few cycles of DHT.

One thing I noticed though is that I need to stay on resveratrol or DIM or a natty anti-E when on the test boosters.

I can't quit everything right now because I'm in the middle of an estrogen rebound phase.

I'm stabilizing where I am right now and then slowly going to come off everything. Each time I've tried to come off everything I get bad effects, so going to come off one thing at a time.

Right now
Alpha hard
Herbal rotation
D3-boron-folic acid-magnesium-zinc
DIM-resveratrol
Micro dose letrozole 25 mcg daily

I think I stopped the gyno that came on after a few days of low dose letrozole.

I dropped the forerunner labs reboot. The 7-Keto-dhea makes me so depressed and I seem to lose strength and get sore. This is the same ingredient that used to be in PES erase and it was good for estrogen control but terrible for my mood.

Also tapering off cabergoline. It makes me tired now and gives me achy muscles. 2 years ago it eliminated brain fog but now it has the opposite effect.

I'm looking to come off letrozole once I get some Aromasin and then taper off that. Have to avoid estrogen rebound, it's a real bitch