Clomid or Nolvadex which one to use

[Brazilianguy]

Hi guys I would like to know which one do you use.

I used 20mg of nolva for 4 days and 10mg for 3 days and I felt some improvements on my gynecomastia (80% on my right nipple and 70% on my left) I still have a little bit but I will try other stuffs. Maybe high dosage of zinc too.

My questiona is regarding pct which one of them do you use or prefer. Because If I decide to do a cycle I want one of them as my PCT.

The other problem is that some people get a little bit depressed on clomid But I think its related to high dosage. If I use it'll be something aproximately to 12.5mg ED or EOD.

Also do you think maca and tribulus should be used at The same time of clomid of after?

Thank you.

[entropy]

This is a debate as old as time and it's been had here before. Use the search function man.

[silverstrand]

Hi guys I would like to know which one do you use.

I used 20mg of nolva for 4 days and 10mg for 3 days and I felt some improvements on my gynecomastia (80% on my right nipple and 70% on my left) I still have a little bit but I will try other stuffs. Maybe high dosage of zinc too.

My questiona is regarding pct which one of them do you use or prefer. Because If I decide to do a cycle I want one of them as my PCT.

The other problem is that some people get a little bit depressed on clomid But I think its related to high dosage. If I use it'll be something aproximately to 12.5mg ED or EOD.

Also do you think maca and tribulus should be used at The same time of clomid of after?

Thank you.

I wouldn't use either of these compounds - Andractim should work well or a DHT prohormone similar to Andro Hard. If you use Andractim, just apply over your whole chest 1/3 to 1/2 dose once to twice a day. Unlike Clomid or Nolvadex, it will take a several months but at least you aren't messing with the receptors in your brain. Also, there's side effects on vision to be concerned about when using these SERMs among other side effects. With Andractim, the most you'll get is slight suppression of thyroid hormone which will slightly depress T production. The offset to the minimal T reduction is that DHT is much stronger in upregulating the AR receptor so you'll be sensitizing your body androgens. This will work for harding your body and making it more masculine BUT you will still suffer body inflammation and cronic stress, so dont expect Andractim to cure your PFS, just your Gyno.

[keep]

I took Tamoxifen for a couple of days to get rid of my PFS. Unfortunately, it worsened my ED considerably. It also shrank my penis. My situation hasn't changed to date even tough I stopped taking Tamoxifen several years ago. I took it because different people claimed it helped with their PFS amongst other things.

What can I do to get back to my pre-Tamoxifen state?

[Brazilianguy]

This is a debate as old as time and it's been had here before. Use the search function man.

Yeah I saw but people said basically nolva is better for gyno and clomid is for???
Nolva got my gyno cleared. I took low dosage. But I don't know about clomid I would say they do almost the same thing but I would like to know How people feel on it. The only time I tried I took high dosage and I think while taking nolva at the same time so it was a very high dosage of SERMs. I took it 3 years ago I guess,

[entropy]

Yeah I saw but people said basically nolva is better for gyno and clomid is for???
Nolva got my gyno cleared. I took low dosage. But I don't know about clomid I would say they do almost the same thing but I would like to know How people feel on it. The only time I tried I took high dosage and I think while taking nolva at the same time so it was a very high dosage of SERMs. I took it 3 years ago I guess,

They're both serms but have antagonistic/antagonistic effects in different tissues. Pretty sure clomid is useless for gyno but better in testicular/ovarian tissues than tamoxifen. Feelings wise with serms I think it really depends on the person, that's not to mention the potential for vision sides etc. Nasty drugs really.

[Jelisej]

I took Tamoxifen for a couple of days to get rid of my PFS. Unfortunately, it worsened my ED considerably. It also shrank my penis. My situation hasn't changed to date even tough I stopped taking Tamoxifen several years ago. I took it because different people claimed it helped with their PFS amongst other things.
What can I do to get back to my pre-Tamoxifen state?

I have high doubts that tamoxifen caused your penis to be "shrunk" ( in flaccid state?)

Your penis is most likely "shrunken" because low hormone levels, you need to take blood tests, as small flaccid penis and sometimes also testicles get drawn in when some of the hormones get low.

[Jelisej]

Yeah I saw but people said basically nolva is better for gyno and clomid is for???
Nolva got my gyno cleared. I took low dosage. But I don't know about clomid I would say they do almost the same thing but I would like to know How people feel on it. The only time I tried I took high dosage and I think while taking nolva at the same time so it was a very high dosage of SERMs. I took it 3 years ago I guess,

Clomiphene is better option for PCT, clomiphene is lot more effective in blocking estrogen recepetors in brain, while nolva/tamoxifen is bit better in blocking them in breast- tough even nolva/tamoxifen is poor choice for reducing gyno (actually only permanent solution is surgery, and over time more cost effective as well)
To a lot of people once body restores iself back in proper androgenic-estrogenic ratio, gyno reverses- so maybe your gyno would be gone even without tamoxifen

Now, dosage is where almost everyone goes wrong and most side effect comes from overdosing, 20mg of tamoxifene or 50 mg of clomiphene a weeks is max dosage- its half lifes as quite long so one can split that dose in daily or eod or even 3X a week.
On top of that running rather small dose of AI may be needed (but if tis going to be or a while than blood test are needed)
on top of that vitamin d should also be added, especially if AI is used, with AI vitamin d should always be taken to reduce sides and potential damage to bones

[Brazilianguy]

Clomiphene is better option for PCT, clomiphene is lot more effective in blocking estrogen recepetors in brain, while nolva/tamoxifen is bit better in blocking them in breast- tough even nolva/tamoxifen is poor choice for reducing gyno (actually only permanent solution is surgery, and over time more cost effective as well)
To a lot of people once body restores iself back in proper androgenic-estrogenic ratio, gyno reverses- so maybe your gyno would be gone even without tamoxifen

Now, dosage is where almost everyone goes wrong and most side effect comes from overdosing, 20mg of tamoxifene or 50 mg of clomiphene a weeks is max dosage- its half lifes as quite long so one can split that dose in daily or eod or even 3X a week.
On top of that running rather small dose of AI may be needed (but if tis going to be or a while than blood test are needed)
on top of that vitamin d should also be added, especially if AI is used, with AI vitamin d should always be taken to reduce sides and potential damage to bones

You're right tamoxifen helped my gyno and a little bit other stuffs. I think I never took just 25mg of clomid or lower. I think I took 100mg and then 50mg. When I got a better T:E my gyno disappeared which was awesome.

Since my last dosage of tamoxifen was yesterday (10mg) I'm thinking about wait a little bit to start clomid. Do you think a week is good enough to remove tamoxifen from my body? I'm taking tribulus ATM do you think would be good to stop to avoid any increase of estrogen? Also any suggestion if a diet with high fats/low carbs would help with the clomid action?

Thank you for your support I'm already feeling much better overall.

[entropy]

Jel buddy why are you wasting your time on this guy?

Here's a link to one of his first threads here.

No libido after PCT don't know what to do. (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/1948-no-libido-after-pct-dont-know-what-do.html)

He didn't even take finasteride as far as I can tell so there's literally no way to tell what's wrong with him, he clearly piles drugs and herbs on top of this undiagnosed illness and doesn't listen anyway. We've already told him to stop taking the damned drugs blindly like he does and he's in here again, asking about more drugs he's taken without knowing how they work.

*pause for the next torrent of abuse from this joker*

[Brazilianguy]

Jel buddy why are you wasting your time on this guy?

Here's a link to one of his first threads here.

No libido after PCT don't know what to do. (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/1948-no-libido-after-pct-dont-know-what-do.html)

He didn't even take finasteride as far as I can tell so there's literally no way to tell what's wrong with him, he clearly piles drugs and herbs on top of this undiagnosed illness and doesn't listen anyway. We've already told him to stop taking the damned drugs blindly like he does and he's in here again, asking about more drugs he's taken without knowing how they work.

*pause for the next torrent of abuse from this joker*

Entropy why don't you mind your own business? You keep posting where I ask things, leave my posts alone, You will have nothing to gain here so why bother?

I really get pissed everytime I see your messages. Seems like you have nothing to do the whole day so you keep searching my messages to say any stupid thing is in your mind. Go get a job or whatever.

Took benzodiapine years ago, was a pothead, tried progesterone and panax ginseng, tried hydrocortisone all these things made me worse. I'm not asking your opinion Entropy actually I don't even read your posts I just answer when you say shit which is quite often but I understand you have nothing to do the whole day.

[entropy]

There's the torrent of abuse! You're a complete fruit loop buddy, in my country we section people like you cause you're a danger to yourself and others. I pick on you cause everything you do is dangerous and someone has to say something just in case someone else thinks anything you do is a wise thing to repeat.

Nice job on trying to belittle me rather than intelligently defending yourself against the totally reasonable points I keep making buddy.

[5 alpha victim]

Everything I have seen in this thread about Clomid and Nolvadex is consistent with all my research and experience.

Nolvadex blocks estrogen at the pituitary gland causing increased LH and FSH production the same way Clomid does.

However Nolvadex may have some estrogen blocking capabilities in the breast tissue as well as at the pituitary gland. This obviously explains why some guys feel improvements in Gyno related symptoms while on it.

As far as choosing between the SERMS goes, most endos (in the U.S. Anyway) prefer clomid over Nolvadex for increasing testosterone in Men. This is why my old Endo put me on clomid instead of the other SERMS.

As far as the dick shrinking goes, I experienced this on clomid as well. My Endo thought that perhaps the clomid "acts as" an estrogen inside of our bodies in many diff ways that can't completely be explained.

Note I did a two year clomid restart under supervision of my Endo.

[Brazilianguy]

Everything I have seen in this thread about Clomid and Nolvadex is consistent with all my research and experience.

Nolvadex blocks estrogen at the pituitary gland causing increased LH and FSH production the same way Clomid does.

However Nolvadex may have some estrogen blocking capabilities in the breast tissue as well as at the pituitary gland. This obviously explains why some guys feel improvements in Gyno related symptoms while on it.

As far as choosing between the SERMS goes, most endos (in the U.S. Anyway) prefer clomid over Nolvadex for increasing testosterone in Men. This is why my old Endo put me on clomid instead of the other SERMS.

As far as the dick shrinking goes, I experienced this on clomid as well. My Endo thought that perhaps the clomid "acts as" an estrogen inside of our bodies in many diff ways that can't completely be explained.

Note I did a two year clomid restart under supervision of my Endo.

How much mg of clomid did you take per day?
I took 20mg nolva for 3 days and then 10mg it gave me a great reduction on gyno, better memory, libido etc. I'm considerably better. I read that clomid is better when taken alone, low dosage. I'm intending to do The same way I did with nolva. But clomid would be 12.5mg for a week or less.

Clomid also make the ER more sensitive to estrogen making your body use less estrogen.

[5 alpha victim]

How much mg of clomid did you take per day?
I took 20mg nolva for 3 days and then 10mg it gave me a great reduction on gyno, better memory, libido etc. I'm considerably better. I read that clomid is better when taken alone, low dosage. I'm intending to do The same way I did with nolva. But clomid would be 12.5mg for a week or less.

Clomid also make the ER more sensitive to estrogen making your body use less estrogen.



I took 50MG of clomid every other day. Just like someone else said on this thread clomid has a long half life so it's not needed every day. Actually my endo told me in his experience it actually works better EOD than it does every day for the purpose of increasing LH and FSH.

Anything over 50MG of clomid EOD is to much and not necessary. If you are going to respond to clomid it will most likely be the case that you will be a responder with 50mg EOD or less. If you do not respond with that dose adding more most likely won't matter and you will most likely start to get the side effects that come along with clomid.

25mg EOD will probably be ok for most guys recovering their testosterone. But most endos that believe in this stuff go with 50 MG EOD.

As far as clomid making our bodies less sensitive to estrogen, my experience was actually the opposite. It shrank my dick and increased the classic numb feeling us DHT inhibitor guys know all to well. It actually felt like it was "acting as" an estrogen systematically even though it was blocking estrogen in my brain preventing the negative feed back loop to stop LH and FSH production.

[Brazilianguy]

I took 50MG of clomid every other day. Just like someone else said on this thread clomid has a long half life so it's not needed every day. Actually my endo told me in his experience it actually works better EOD than it does every day for the purpose of increasing LH and FSH.

Anything over 50MG of clomid EOD is to much and not necessary. If you are going to respond to clomid it will most likely be the case that you will be a responder with 50mg EOD or less. If you do not respond with that dose adding more most likely won't matter and you will most likely start to get the side effects that come along with clomid.

25mg EOD will probably be ok for most guys recovering their testosterone. But most endos that believe in this stuff go with 50 MG EOD.

As far as clomid making our bodies less sensitive to estrogen, my experience was actually the opposite. It shrank my dick and increased the classic numb feeling us DHT inhibitor guys know all to well. It actually felt like it was "acting as" an estrogen systematically even though it was blocking estrogen in my brain preventing the negative feed back loop to stop LH and FSH production.


You took a very high dosage. What I see is people recomending 12.5mg EOD or E3D.
Tamoxifen made me better and The results stayed. I'm thinking about trying clomid 12.5mg and see If it would help even more.
If you want to see a success case in propeciahelp check legendary he felt 90% better, the problem is that he was also taking letrozole so his E got 0 and Maybe he crashed I'm not sure.

[silverstrand]

You took a very high dosage. What I see is people recomending 12.5mg EOD or E3D.
Tamoxifen made me better and The results stayed. I'm thinking about trying clomid 12.5mg and see If it would help even more.
If you want to see a success case in propeciahelp check legendary he felt 90% better, the problem is that he was also taking letrozole so his E got 0 and Maybe he crashed I'm not sure.

I'm staying away from anything that has the potential of making my dick smaller.
Btw, I dont see how these compounds can help, given our situation. I mean, they block certain estrogen receptors so the body goes in over drive producing testosterone but if you have an estrogen imbalance - wouldn't this logically make things worse since most of that testosterone will now be converted to estrogen. This estrogen can then act on receptors not blocked by Nolva/Clomid. - This probably explains why penile tissue gets reduced; the body is attemping to turn it into a clit.

[5 alpha victim]

I'm staying away from anything that has the potential of making my dick smaller.

Btw, I dont see how these compounds can help, given our situation. I mean, they block certain estrogen receptors so the body goes in over drive producing testosterone but if you have an estrogen imbalance - wouldn't this logically make things worse since most of that testosterone will now be converted to estrogen. This estrogen can then act on receptors not blocked by Nolva/Clomid. - This probably explains why penile tissue gets reduced; the body is attemping to turn it into a clit.

If you have low T like obviously most people on propecia help have than of course raising it is the most logical thing to do. Most guys in their 20's (the average age of the propecia help group) do not want to go on TRT. So of course a SERM is a logical option to correct the low T.

As far as the concern of your T converting E at a higher than normal rate goes... Well that's always a concern no matter which method you are choosing to use to increase your T.

There is nothing about using a SERM to increase T that increases the likely hood that you will have a higher than normal estrogen conversion rate than on TRT. I think my endo that had me on it said it the best when he mentioned Clomid "acting as" an estrogen in the body in ways that are not understood. So your concern is real but thinking a SERM will make you develop a clit is crazy. The shrinking we see can happen when you crush your estrogen to Low as well. Guys on this forum have reported that from taking res 100 which is not even a prescription strength AI.

So it's a hormonal balance issue that causes this most of the time. proper T/estrogen ratios ect.... but there is something about Clomid that does this by some other mechanism of action. Even with that said I personally got more good then bad out of my experience with a Clomid restart

Honestly after my Clomid use, Four months on TRT I believe rotating T boosters, a healthy diet and high intensity training is the best way to go as far as increasing your T goes. Also we have carb backloading which I have not even got into yet.

[silverstrand]

If you have low T like obviously most people on propecia help have than of course raising it is the most logical thing to do. Most guys in their 20's (the average age of the propecia help group) do not want to go on TRT. So of course a SERM is a logical option to correct the low T.

As far as the concern of your T converting E at a higher than normal rate goes... Well that's always a concern no matter which method you are choosing to use to increase your T.

There is nothing about using a SERM to increase T that increases the likely hood that you will have a higher than normal estrogen conversion rate than on TRT. I think my endo that had me on it said it the best when he mentioned Clomid "acting as" an estrogen in the body in ways that are not understood. So your concern is real but thinking a SERM will make you develop a clit is crazy. The shrinking we see can happen when you crush your estrogen to Low as well. Guys on this forum have reported that from taking res 100 which is not even a prescription strength AI.

So it's a hormonal balance issue that causes this most of the time. proper T/estrogen ratios ect.... but there is something about Clomid that does this by some other mechanism of action. Even with that said I personally got more good then bad out of my experience with a Clomid restart

Honestly after my Clomid use, Four months on TRT I believe rotating T boosters, a healthy diet and high intensity training is the best way to go as far as increasing your T goes. Also we have carb backloading which I have not even got into yet.

Ok, if that is the direction you want to go. I just dont want to use something that has an "unknown" variable which in my mind will add complexity.
The clit comment is more of a joke
However, I know before fin, anything that would possibly shrink my dick would scare the hell out of me (still does). If that was on the warning lable (or the new update of persistent side effects after stopping the drug), trust me, I would have never used it. Why go from large to average, that would just suck. How much of a reduction are we talking about btw?

[5 alpha victim]

Ok, if that is the direction you want to go. I just dont want to use something that has an "unknown" variable which in my mind will add complexity.
The clit comment is more of a joke
However, I know before fin, anything that would possibly shrink my dick would scare the hell out of me (still does). If that was on the warning lable (or the new update of persistent side effects after stopping the drug), trust me, I would have never used it. Why go from large to average, that would just suck. How much of a reduction are we talking about btw?

Yea I here you. If I knew what I know now about how to get that extra boost in testosterone naturally I would have never have tried clomid or TRT.

I guess we can only learn from our experiences with what we take. It's hard to say for sure because I ignored it as much as I could but about a solid inch regardless of its state. Even before I got crazy about jumping on protocols to get better I had already recovered from the clomid sides/size reduction. With that said the clomid sides seem temporary.

As for now I'm almost done with PCT and I am deciding when I want to run another DHT prohormone cycle. Seeing that my first A300 cycle seems to have provided me with lasting benefits and seeing that I'm in the gym hard right now I may run another as early as Sept 1st. The lasting benefits in my case where not seen until I was well into PCT which I think is interesting.

[silverstrand]

Yea I here you. If I knew what I know now about how to get that extra boost in testosterone naturally I would have never have tried clomid or TRT.

I guess we can only learn from our experiences with what we take. It's hard to say for sure because I ignored it as much as I could but about a solid inch regardless of its state. Even before I got crazy about jumping on protocols to get better I had already recovered from the clomid sides/size reduction. With that said the clomid sides seem temporary.

As for now I'm almost done with PCT and I am deciding when I want to run another DHT prohormone cycle. Seeing that my first A300 cycle seems to have provided me with lasting benefits and seeing that I'm in the gym hard right now I may run another as early as Sept 1st. The lasting benefits in my case where not seen until I was well into PCT which I think is interesting.

Nice, I'm glad it was only temporary. Fin seems to have reduced my size just a little, maybe quarter of an inch. Pumping seems to improve the situation, can wait until my levels are normalized so I can experience some gains. I don't want much, just what I lost and a little more. As for running cycles, Im going to stick with running tests and modifying my plans as I go from there. These last results put to rest many false assumptions and pointed out other things that need more attention. I believe I dont have that much of an estrogen imbalance, something that can be resolved by using Sustain Alpha 2 to 3 times a week at most with one pump each dose. Waiting to see my next set of bloods in 5 more weeks or so. I want to be more calculated. It will cost more but dude, I'm so done allowing this to take time away from my life. Time is everything.

[5 alpha victim]

So your estrogen is not that out of control but your total and or free T is to low?

Have you tried cycling natty T boosters yet. Even though I have not verified this with blood work yet, I'm going by feel and it's obvious to me it works for increasing testosterone. It feels more like a slight increase but that's all thats probable really needed at the end of the day.

The pine pollen powder every day seems like a good thing to add on to a natty T boosting protocol. I'll verify everything with labs eventually but for now I'm just going by feel.

My insurance denied payment on the last set of labs I had done through an endo. I got stuck with a $1300 bill and had to appeal though my insurance to force them to pay. So for a while I need to lie low on trying to put labs through my insurance.

[keep]

Unfortunately, I have not recovered from the side effects of Tamoxifen (shrinkage of penis and worsening of ED). What medication can I try to reverse this? As far as I know Tamoxifen acts as an anti-estrogen in the breast but as an estrogen in the uterus/endometrium in females. I assume that it acts as an estrogen in males testicles/penis.

[silverstrand]

So your estrogen is not that out of control but your total and or free T is to low?

Have you tried cycling natty T boosters yet. Even though I have not verified this with blood work yet, I'm going by feel and it's obvious to me it works for increasing testosterone. It feels more like a slight increase but that's all thats probable really needed at the end of the day.

The pine pollen powder every day seems like a good thing to add on to a natty T boosting protocol. I'll verify everything with labs eventually but for now I'm just going by feel.

My insurance denied payment on the last set of labs I had done through an endo. I got stuck with a $1300 bill and had to appeal though my insurance to force them to pay. So for a while I need to lie low on trying to put labs through my insurance.

My T is low, low 400's but so is my LH. I posted my test results. I believe my use of andractim and androhard suppressed my t production to some extent. I dont konw by how much but my DHT values were close to 3 times the high normal amount.

I wont really know until my next labs. I'm sure I have an estrogen issue but I believe it is secondary to the other parts of my system that got totally screwed up. I'm taking an indirect/natural approach and doing my homework. I do have T boosting herbs and I'm currently using them.

[silverstrand]

Unfortunately, I have not recovered from the side effects of Tamoxifen (shrinkage of penis and worsening of ED). What medication can I try to reverse this? As far as I know Tamoxifen acts as an anti-estrogen in the breast but as an estrogen in the uterus/endometrium in females. I assume that it acts as an estrogen in males testicles/penis.

How much did you use and how long did you use it for? Also any other sides like reduced night vision? How much of a reduction? There are others out here who have used it before and can give you better advice. It will probably be a good idea to get some lab work done and follow up with that information. Taking additional meds while in the dark to your numbers isn't the best way to go about it.

[WesleyInman]

Nolva targets breast tissue better then pretty much anything.

Clomid is off label used as HRT...so for PCT or to return HPTA it is a great tool. I have heard of mood swings while on.

Personally if I were you, I'd run both at the same time. Also I would run Cialis @ 5-10mgs ED just to make sure any hormone fluctuations don't wreak havoc on sexual abilities.

Last, what are your prolactin levels like?? Those if they are high, can cause ED issues to occur or pregyno/gyno issues can return immediately.

Think of it this way, until you get your hormones balanced, any fluctuations can spike levels and you can simply return gyno symptoms, etc...upon cessation.

I like PCT protocols longer then shorter for this reason. I have had my guys get scripts of clomid and nolva and run them for 2-4 months after a cycle. This is not unsafe generally speaking and it gives a very good overall result to someone who was on AAS long term.

[keep]

How much did you use and how long did you use it for? Also any other sides like reduced night vision? How much of a reduction? There are others out here who have used it before and can give you better advice. It will probably be a good idea to get some lab work done and follow up with that information. Taking additional meds while in the dark to your numbers isn't the best way to go about it.

I took 20mg for the first couple of days, then 10mg, then 5mg. I took it for about two weeks. While I was on it I had hot flushes. No other side effects. The girth of my penis was reduced and more flaccid than before (hard to explain). I did several blood tests. They don't show much difference compared to those I took before Tamoxifen (my original problem was PFS).

[Brazilianguy]

So I decided to take clomid 12.5mg E3D. I'm feeling good, not as good as 20mg of nolvadex But its safer and I'll have less risk of estrogen rebound. Should I take low dosage of AI while doing it? i was thinking about taking .25mg of arimidex twice a week and continue for a week without clomid and then restart.

I'm asking about the AI because I had an estrogen rebound from nolvadex and got estrogen rebound that made my nipples burn and got puffy but clomid made them less puffy. I still have a little bit of gyno But when I felt better even without SERMs (with tribulus for instance) my gyno was cleared so basically is just more fat around breast that got corrected with better T:E.

Jelisej If you read this I read that you talked about low metabolic rate. How can I know that I have improvements in this department? I mean when I get a better baseline, more energy, libido and this improvements stay with me, that would mean that I got a better metabolic rate?

Thank you. I'm following the advices Jelisef and Nate gave me and already feeling improvements. I'm grateful.

[5 alpha victim]

I took 20mg for the first couple of days, then 10mg, then 5mg. I took it for about two weeks. While I was on it I had hot flushes. No other side effects. The girth of my penis was reduced and more flaccid than before (hard to explain). I did several blood tests. They don't show much difference compared to those I took before Tamoxifen (my original problem was PFS).

Your experience with Tamoxifen was exactly the same as my experience was with Clomid as far as the girth and size issue you speak of.

Just like you said our labs give us no clues as to why a SERM can do this. Just like my endo told me about how a SERM seems to act as an estrogen somehow in our bodies you seem to be saying the same thing.

According to my endo taking a SERM for a short period of time like you did is more or less pointless in the regard that you will probably only experience higher T levels just while on it. If there is any truth to a SERM being able to permantly "reactivate" LH and or FSH production than it will probably take a lot longer than two weeks to be able to do this. Most endos say that you would need to take a SERM for an extended period of time to really permantly correct secondary hypogondaism and that's if it's even possible to do so.

For approx a year and a half after my two year Clomid restart my total testostetone remained in the 700's. For a majority of the time while on Clomid my total T was above 1000 NG/DL. Before I went on Clomid my total T was in the 300's. So it went from low (pre clomid ) to crazy high (during Clomid) and than into the 700's post Clomid . So it worked for a while even after off of it in my case.

However about a year and half after Clomid my total T dropped down to the 200 range (even lower than it was before Clomid).

I blame a fish oil sup actually for my most recent crash in T levels. But of course there's no way to know for sure.

But I don't see us getting anything out of short term SERM usage other than the side effects like we both experienced with the shrunken dick. Unless of course obviously a guy who did a steroid cycle is using it just to experience higher natural T levels right after their cycle for a month or two. But even then I think that guys T levels would have recovered anyway and that in that situation their SERM usage had next to nothing to do with why their T levels ended up recovering for the long term if that was the end result.

Time is the only thing I can say corrected my Clomid induced shrunken dick. Even with T levels in the 200's I did not experience that loss in girth i got on Clomid. Also for me DHT prohomones seem to help with gains in girth and size.

[5 alpha victim]

So I decided to take clomid 12.5mg E3D. I'm feeling good, not as good as 20mg of nolvadex But its safer and I'll have less risk of estrogen rebound. Should I take low dosage of AI while doing it? i was thinking about taking .25mg of arimidex twice a week and continue for a week without clomid and then restart.

I'm asking about the AI because I had an estrogen rebound from nolvadex and got estrogen rebound that made my nipples burn and got puffy but clomid made them less puffy. I still have a little bit of gyno But when I felt better even without SERMs (with tribulus for instance) my gyno was cleared so basically is just more fat around breast that got corrected with better T:E.

Jelisej If you read this I read that you talked about low metabolic rate. How can I know that I have improvements in this department? I mean when I get a better baseline, more energy, libido and this improvements stay with me, that would mean that I got a better metabolic rate?

Thank you. I'm following the advices Jelisef and Nate gave me and already feeling improvements. I'm grateful.

If the main concern you have right now about estrogen is estrogen rebound than perhaps waiting until you are done with Clomid restart to take the AI is the best ?

I'm not to familer with estrogen rebound but if I understand it correctly it's the estrogen rebound effect that takes place after you are done altering your hormone levels. Maybe someone else can confirm or deny that.

Only other insight on it I can offer is at one point during my Clomid restart I added in armidex at a low dose that you are considering and that's actually exactly when I experienced the shrunken dick during my Clomid restart. To this day I wonder if I never added in that armidex if I would have seen the dick shrinking during my Clomid restart.

When I added in the armidex I had no concerns about estrogen other than my estrogen flagging as high on my labs that I was getting to monitor what the Clomid was doing. Me and my endo seen a out of range estrogen reading and combined that with the fact that even At Clomid induced 1000 NG/DL
Total T readings I was still experiencing ED and said ok let's add armidex.

My point is that in my case things took a turn for the worst for me during my Clomid restart once I added in the Armidex. So if I was you don't go by just lab readings or just symptoms. Go by the combination of both of those things to make your decision about adding in a AI. Ohh and u may want to consider trying Res100 for your AI before armidex.

Res100 has had me feeling almost just as good over the last few days as I was feeling on my 6 week DHT pro hormone run. Good Enough to the point where I was tempted to continue to just stay on Res 100 but I said fuck it and now I'm running another DHT prohomones run. I'm curious to see if I'll continue to experience imorovments from additional runs.

[Brazilianguy]

If the main concern you have right now about estrogen is estrogen rebound than perhaps waiting until you are done with Clomid restart to take the AI is the best ?

I'm not to familer with estrogen rebound but if I understand it correctly it's the estrogen rebound effect that takes place after you are done altering your hormone levels. Maybe someone else can confirm or deny that.

Only other insight on it I can offer is at one point during my Clomid restart I added in armidex at a low dose that you are considering and that's actually exactly when I experienced the shrunken dick during my Clomid restart. To this day I wonder if I never added in that armidex if I would have seen the dick shrinking during my Clomid restart.

When I added in the armidex I had no concerns about estrogen other than my estrogen flagging as high on my labs that I was getting to monitor what the Clomid was doing. Me and my endo seen a out of range estrogen reading and combined that with the fact that even At Clomid induced 1000 NG/DL
Total T readings I was still experiencing ED and said ok let's add armidex.

My point is that in my case things took a turn for the worst for me during my Clomid restart once I added in the Armidex. So if I was you don't go by just lab readings or just symptoms. Go by the combination of both of those things to make your decision about adding in a AI. Ohh and u may want to consider trying Res100 for your AI before armidex.

Res100 has had me feeling almost just as good over the last few days as I was feeling on my 6 week DHT pro hormone run. Good Enough to the point where I was tempted to continue to just stay on Res 100 but I said fuck it and now I'm running another DHT prohomones run. I'm curious to see if I'll continue to experience imorovments from additional runs.

How much clomid and arimidex did you take? I'm taking 12.5mg E3D, in the second day I take 0.25mg of adex (Will take even less) after The adex I get really high anxiety for 10minutes and after that I get really good. When I took The second dosage of clomid I got a little bit of brain fog and slept worse but If I take nolva or clomid and let the serm get out of my body I get really better. Will do sometimes with clomid and sometimes with nolva. When I took The first 20mg of nolva my brain fog got 80% and had some libido recover. I wonder what would happen If I had taken just that pill and then less than 0.25mg adex (because this is how I get improvements and stay with a better baseline)

[5 alpha victim]

How much clomid and arimidex did you take? I'm taking 12.5mg E3D, in the second day I take 0.25mg of adex (Will take even less) after The adex I get really high anxiety for 10minutes and after that I get really good. When I took The second dosage of clomid I got a little bit of brain fog and slept worse but If I take nolva or clomid and let the serm get out of my body I get really better. Will do sometimes with clomid and sometimes with nolva. When I took The first 20mg of nolva my brain fog got 80% and had some libido recover. I wonder what would happen If I had taken just that pill and then less than 0.25mg adex (because this is how I get improvements and stay with a better baseline)

During my Clomid restart I took 50MG every other day. When I added in armidex I started At 1MG every other day and after a couple of weeks lowered it to .5 MG every other day and eventual .25mg every other day. Like I said once I added in the armidex I noticed shrinkage. There's no way to know for sure if the Clomid was causing it at that point or if it was the armidex.

It's interesting that you say you feel better after the SERM is wearing off. Perhaps this means the increase in testosterone that's probable still lingering around in your blood stream is what's making you feel better. In other words I'm saying that maybe when the SERM was still highly active in your system it was "acting as an estrogen" which was preventing you from feeling the benefits from the increased T and once the SERM started to wear off you now felt the benefits from that extra T as I'm sure the Testosterone just does not "go away" overnight.

But I'm sure if this was the case you would know by now if simply increasing your T makes you feel better or not.

Also I'm curious to know how much of an increase in T you will see from that dose of Clomid you are trying.

[Brazilianguy]

During my Clomid restart I took 50MG every other day. When I added in armidex I started At 1MG every other day and after a couple of weeks lowered it to .5 MG every other day and eventual .25mg every other day. Like I said once I added in the armidex I noticed shrinkage. There's no way to know for sure if the Clomid was causing it at that point or if it was the armidex.

It's interesting that you say you feel better after the SERM is wearing off. Perhaps this means the increase in testosterone that's probable still lingering around in your blood stream is what's making you feel better. In other words I'm saying that maybe when the SERM was still highly active in your system it was "acting as an estrogen" which was preventing you from feeling the benefits from the increased T and once the SERM started to wear off you now felt the benefits from that extra T as I'm sure the Testosterone just does not "go away" overnight.

But I'm sure if this was the case you would know by now if simply increasing your T makes you feel better or not.

Also I'm curious to know how much of an increase in T you will see from that dose of Clomid you are trying.


I feel better when I take the first dosage of clomid or nolvadex, when I take arimidex (even .25 or less) I feel high anxiety (felt panick attack one day)and nipple pain and limp dick.
What I tried to say is that I take the first pill of a SERM and even when it leaves my system I stay better. I remember I felt great on nolva but as soon as I started taking arimidex it made me feel terrible and I had puffy, itchy, burning nipples.

If you wanna talk to me my skype is joocar2