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View Full Version : When is a SERM needed? so many different answers



weakling
11-24-2012, 07:40 PM
Ok I've seen so many different answers to that question on different threads and I wonder why the opinion on this varries. I'm very much a newbie to the PH world but I've ran two cycles in the last two years and while I understand they were on the mild side(AH, AD, AE, AL, etc) I had successful runs and successful PCT without the need for a SERM.

Seeing that PP is no longer an option I'm putting together a more agressive cycle(EPI, Stano, trenazone) and I've been doing a lot of reading on multiple sites and I'm seeing so many different answers. Anyone know why that is?

Oh by the way I have testforce2, SA and I'm probably going to pick up some clomid from ID

Enuke65
11-24-2012, 08:52 PM
This is my understanding, someone who is better at this please step in and fix me if i'm fucked up.


If you're going to use Epi, you're going to need a SERM. Epistane is going to shut you down (suppress endogenous testosterone production). There's a super complex explanation as to how this interacts with the HPTA, and how shutdown will cause an estrogen rebound once your body starts making test again. The body seeks a test/e balance, and will produce a bunch of enzymes to make estrogen out of test to accomplish this, and using some of these designer steroids that suppress natural test production fuck all this up, lots of aromatase enzymes present, so lots of test being converted to estrogen. When your hypothalamus sees a bunch of estrogen, it says cut back on the test production, which kills you're natty test levels even more. SERMs will occupy the receptors in the hypothalamus (and elsewhere in the body, like breast tissues) that say you need more estrogen, so your body will not see a need to make more aromatase enzymes, and will not see a need to cut back on test production.

This is a very rough explanation, if anyone else can pipe in please do so, I'm in a rush and may have glossed over some stuff.
Basically dude, if you're gonna use anything other than the androseries or it's rip-offs (forerunner and aids factory, etc) use a SERM in your PCT, otherwise you will likely lose at least some of your gains, feel like shit (low test) and possibly have issues with estrogen (tits, no sex drive, etc). Keep the SA and the testforce, definitely use them, but do not use only them, GET A SERM, please, for the sake of your balls and lack of man-tits.

Best of luck man.

harbonah
11-24-2012, 09:07 PM
I myself would run tamoxifen citrate & clomiphene citrate with any "Tren" based ph supplement I had blood work post tren xtreame solo and was shut down like test level coming back in the 30's.... I know everyone reacts differently but I myself wont risk my balls!

weakling
11-24-2012, 10:12 PM
I myself would run tamoxifen citrate & clomiphene citrate with any "Tren" based ph supplement I had blood work post tren xtreame solo and was shut down like test level coming back in the 30's.... I know everyone reacts differently but I myself wont risk my balls!

you would use both tamoxifen and clomiphene? what dose schedule do you use?

What about toremifene? per ID it is equally effective and seems to be more sought after.

milehighguy
11-24-2012, 10:29 PM
you would use both tamoxifen and clomiphene? what dose schedule do you use?

What about toremifene? per ID it is equally effective and seems to be more sought after.

weakling, head back over to pp's website and search for 'The Official PCT Thread'. I think it might help give you a little additional background. You can actually still buy SA LV, EndoAmp MAX, and Toco 8 which is the basis of the original PP TRS. Then you can add a SERM to the mix and you should be in good shape. I have not seen many guys use both tamoxifen and clomid but I do believe it would be a good idea if you plan to use something that really shuts you down.

harbonah
11-24-2012, 10:37 PM
20mg nolva 100mg clomid weeks 1&2
10mg nolva 50mg clomid weeks 3&4
Week 5 & maybe 6 all depend on the length of the cycle but solo either clomid 25 or nolva 10.


That being said this might be very heavy handed for you my last cycle was 18 weeks long so my pct is based off blood work and what has worked for me.

burlyman30
11-24-2012, 10:58 PM
my pct is based off blood work and what has worked for me.

Ultimately, this is the ONLY way to know if a PCT has been effective.

The rest of the recommendations are just guidelines that have worked for others. What will work for an individual, whether OTC or RC or Rx, will ultimately be only proven by bloodwork, not just by "feel". Someone could be "recovered", but end up with a testosterone level 100-200 points below normal. What works for 10 others may work for you also. Or may not.

The problem with SERMs... RC inconsistencies. I think many who have experienced the fluctuations in potency and quality have moved on to Rx Clomid vs. RC of anything else. Toremifene is a great SERM, even preferable to Clomid/Nolva, but only if it is actually toremifene. Plenty of RC users have found this to ring true.

In the past, I've been able to recover from a combination of OTC products even after using harsh compounds, but I found it better to plan a PCT that would extend longer than 4 weeks, as most of the OTC compounds were not as quick of a recovery (at least for me). However, as mentioned by harbonah, I confirmed things with bloodwork. It's just not worth the guessing game.

harbonah
11-24-2012, 11:28 PM
Ultimately, this is the ONLY way to know if a PCT has been effective.

The rest of the recommendations are just guidelines that have worked for others. What will work for an individual, whether OTC or RC or Rx, will ultimately be only proven by bloodwork, not just by "feel". Someone could be "recovered", but end up with a testosterone level 100-200 points below normal. What works for 10 others may work for you also. Or may not.

The problem with SERMs... RC inconsistencies. I think many who have experienced the fluctuations in potency and quality have moved on to Rx Clomid vs. RC of anything else. Toremifene is a great SERM, even preferable to Clomid/Nolva, but only if it is actually toremifene. Plenty of RC users have found this to ring true.

In the past, I've been able to recover from a combination of OTC products even after using harsh compounds, but I found it better to plan a PCT that would extend longer than 4 weeks, as most of the OTC compounds were not as quick of a recovery (at least for me). However, as mentioned by harbonah, I confirmed things with bloodwork. It's just not worth the guessing game.

100% agree!
As stated above go with pharma over RC when you can. And get blood work each time I can personally attest to feeling recovered and having 263 ng/dl test level!< and that was on pharma grade nolva with a script.

weakling
11-24-2012, 11:57 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I did go back and read the PCT thread by Eric... Great Info!

My PCT will be:

Torem 40/40/40/40
Sustain Alpha LV
TF2
Toco 8

I already have it all with the exception of torem. PS has the best price I can find but I've read good/bad reviews of product.

OK PCT is done. I'm going to pre cycle with Liver juice from PP.

Off topic but.... Now I need to put my on cycle plans together. With the products I'm going to run with (EPI Elite, Stano Elite and Trenazone) I would love to hear some suggestions. Based on what I have read I'm thinking(man I miss the androseries, they really took out the guess work) anyway I already have the below product on hand:

Tzone 2ml/2ml/2ml/2ml
Stano Elite 450mg/450mg/450mg/450mg
EPI Elite 30mg/30mg/30mg/30mg

too many questions I have..... cycle to short? do I need more EPI? etc?

And last I need to get my diet plan togehter but I have time seeing that I'm not going to start this run till Jan.

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -


100% agree!
As stated above go with pharma over RC when you can. And get blood work each time I can personally attest to feeling recovered and having 263 ng/dl test level!< and that was on pharma grade nolva with a script.

I will get tested before and after my run

harbonah
11-25-2012, 01:33 AM
I would increase all 3 PH's to 6 weeks....or 2 weeks stano/tren then 6 weeks all 3. I like longer cycles though as you tend to keep more of the gains if your pct is on point.

nate3993
11-25-2012, 03:31 AM
Thanks for all the replies. I did go back and read the PCT thread by Eric... Great Info!

My PCT will be:

Torem 40/40/40/40
Sustain Alpha LV
TF2
Toco 8

I already have it all with the exception of torem. PS has the best price I can find but I've read good/bad reviews of product.

OK PCT is done. I'm going to pre cycle with Liver juice from PP.

Off topic but.... Now I need to put my on cycle plans together. With the products I'm going to run with (EPI Elite, Stano Elite and Trenazone) I would love to hear some suggestions. Based on what I have read I'm thinking(man I miss the androseries, they really took out the guess work) anyway I already have the below product on hand:

Tzone 2ml/2ml/2ml/2ml
Stano Elite 450mg/450mg/450mg/450mg
EPI Elite 30mg/30mg/30mg/30mg

too many questions I have..... cycle to short? do I need more EPI? etc?

And last I need to get my diet plan togehter but I have time seeing that I'm not going to start this run till Jan.

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -



I will get tested before and after my run

torem is too low. you wanna start out much higher and then taper down. trenazone is gonna shut you down hard. any kind of tren prohormone will do this. read dj's protocol for torem.

milehighguy
11-25-2012, 10:27 AM
torem is too low. you wanna start out much higher and then taper down. trenazone is gonna shut you down hard. any kind of tren prohormone will do this. read dj's protocol for torem.


Totally agree! You may not recover at that dosage.

markam
11-25-2012, 10:38 AM
Thanks for all the replies. I did go back and read the PCT thread by Eric... Great Info!

My PCT will be:

Torem 40/40/40/40
Sustain Alpha LV
TF2
Toco 8

I already have it all with the exception of torem. PS has the best price I can find but I've read good/bad reviews of product.

OK PCT is done. I'm going to pre cycle with Liver juice from PP.

Off topic but.... Now I need to put my on cycle plans together. With the products I'm going to run with (EPI Elite, Stano Elite and Trenazone) I would love to hear some suggestions. Based on what I have read I'm thinking(man I miss the androseries, they really took out the guess work) anyway I already have the below product on hand:

Tzone 2ml/2ml/2ml/2ml
Stano Elite 450mg/450mg/450mg/450mg
EPI Elite 30mg/30mg/30mg/30mg

too many questions I have..... cycle to short? do I need more EPI? etc?

And last I need to get my diet plan togehter but I have time seeing that I'm not going to start this run till Jan.

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -



I will get tested before and after my run

Epi and AH can be tough on your joints as both compounds affect estrogen levels. From my own experience I wouldn't run both together, but I was dosing higher than you.

weakling
11-25-2012, 11:09 AM
torem is too low. you wanna start out much higher and then taper down. trenazone is gonna shut you down hard. any kind of tren prohormone will do this. read dj's protocol for torem.

great info thanks

Freepressright
11-26-2012, 02:19 PM
My rule of thumb has always been to use a SERM any time a methyl has been in the equation. PP's TRS was enough for any DHEA-based cycle I've run. I also used TRS only after an Epi/Dermacrine cycle and had no issues. But I would never again PCT without a SERM if I've taken anything methylated.

nate3993
11-26-2012, 02:21 PM
My rule of thumb has always been to use a SERM any time a methyl has been in the equation. PP's TRS was enough for any DHEA-based cycle I've run. I also used TRS only after an Epi/Dermacrine cycle and had no issues. But I would never again PCT without a SERM if I've taken anything methylated.

even with 1ad or 4ad from AMS i would recommend a serm. those shut you down pretty good too. the more conversions, the higher the side effects and the more shut down.

Freepressright
11-26-2012, 02:24 PM
It's entirely plausible that you can get serious shutdown from DHEA-based compounds, but I think that's probably dose dependent. There's no crime in using a SERM for peace of mind. I don't believe you can 'overdo' PCT.

burlyman30
11-26-2012, 03:15 PM
My rule of thumb has always been to use a SERM any time a methyl has been in the equation. PP's TRS was enough for any DHEA-based cycle I've run. I also used TRS only after an Epi/Dermacrine cycle and had no issues. But I would never again PCT without a SERM if I've taken anything methylated.

Methylation doesn't really have anything to do with shutdown. Trenazone is a good example of that. Itll shut guys down harder than a lot of methyls.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

xxiv
11-26-2012, 05:35 PM
PP's TRS was enough for any DHEA-based cycle I've run.

This has been my experience as well. pre t was 720ish post was 1240ish. An ai would have been nice though, i was an emotional wreck.

Freepressright
11-27-2012, 08:23 AM
Methylation doesn't really have anything to do with shutdown. Trenazone is a good example of that. Itll shut guys down harder than a lot of methyls.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I had forgotten about the Trenazone product being on the market. Good point.

The reason I referenced methyls is because just about every one of them on the market tends to be very harsh to the endocrine system overall, particularly the HPTA axis. There aren't very many non-methyls left out there on the market anymore that are worth a shit and capable of producing significant suppression and endocrine disruption, but Trenazone is certainly one of them.

Rodja
11-27-2012, 08:41 AM
Most researched SERM is clomid as it is prescribed off-label as part of fertility and HRT regimens now. As with any drug, there are benefits and risks. With clomid, the biggest risk is LH insensitivity if too high of a dose is utilized for too long and the emotional sides that some get while using the drug. Toremifene appears to be the safest of the group, but good luck finding legitimate toremifene right now as it is quite scarce at the moment. I personally hate nolva and will not touch the stuff anymore.

O_RYAN_007
11-27-2012, 09:46 PM
It's entirely plausible that you can get serious shutdown from DHEA-based compounds, but I think that's probably dose dependent. There's no crime in using a SERM for peace of mind. I don't believe you can 'overdo' PCT.

At 6 caps/day for wk 1-4
and 9 caps for wks 5-6
and 11 caps for 7-10 of MASS V3 I hit up DJs torem protocol and TRSV2. I actually got shut down pretty good, but after about wk 2-3 I started to come back and recovered great; bones Galore! But I just went by feel... I will no longer be doing that again.

I know over on PP we talked about (I believed H2S mentioned it) how to get a pretty good deal on some blood work at a Lab Corp... Could you chime in here H2S? I'm looking to get some bloodwork at a lab corp in a couple weeks. PS, if you try and go to your DR these days and ask for a full blood panel looking for test, estriol, fsh, lh, etc, you will need to explain why you need it. IE, are you having problems??? LOL, I ran into this crap a couple months back.

harbonah
11-27-2012, 11:03 PM
At 6 caps/day for wk 1-4
and 9 caps for wks 5-6
and 11 caps for 7-10 of MASS V3 I hit up DJs torem protocol and TRSV2. I actually got shut down pretty good, but after about wk 2-3 I started to come back and recovered great; bones Galore! But I just went by feel... I will no longer be doing that again.

I know over on PP we talked about (I believed H2S mentioned it) how to get a pretty good deal on some blood work at a Lab Corp... Could you chime in here H2S? I'm looking to get some bloodwork at a lab corp in a couple weeks. PS, if you try and go to your DR these days and ask for a full blood panel looking for test, estriol, fsh, lh, etc, you will need to explain why you need it. IE, are you having problems??? LOL, I ran into this crap a couple months back.

ARCpoint labs are creep also I think I paid 100 for my test levels.

burlyman30
11-27-2012, 11:21 PM
Privatemdlabs.com is about 50 bucks for a whole hormone profile.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Freepressright
11-28-2012, 07:46 AM
At 6 caps/day for wk 1-4
and 9 caps for wks 5-6
and 11 caps for 7-10 of MASS V3 I hit up DJs torem protocol and TRSV2. I actually got shut down pretty good,

That's a pretty serious dose and duration. Shutdown was pretty much inevitable.

One of the guys from AMS claimed that in many 6 to 8 week runs of their DHEA-based products they have blood work showing users only losing 25 to 50 percent of their natural testosterone in the worst cases of shutdown. I don't know the specifics, but I did read those claims.

I think of all the DHEA-based compounds, 1-DHEA is the harshest in terms of side effects. I've completely lost my sex drive, had zero energy and felt like I had the flu. I was also a raging dickhead. I don't know how it is, overall, for shutdown, but it's definitely a potent compound for being a DHEA metabolite.

harbonah
11-28-2012, 08:05 AM
That's a pretty serious dose and duration. Shutdown was pretty much inevitable.

One of the guys from AMS claimed that in many 6 to 8 week runs of their DHEA-based products they have blood work showing users only losing 25 to 50 percent of their natural testosterone in the worst cases of shutdown. I don't know the specifics, but I did read those claims.

I think of all the DHEA-based compounds, 1-DHEA is the harshest in terms of side effects. I've completely lost my sex drive, had zero energy and felt like I had the flu. I was also a raging dickhead. I don't know how it is, overall, for shutdown, but it's definitely a potent compound for being a DHEA metabolite.

I never bought into this low Suppression that is claimed by companies for their DHEA metabolites. I would love to see blood work as I have seen just DHEA have a very potent shutdown for people solo.

h2s
11-28-2012, 08:08 AM
I never bought into this low Suppression that is claimed by companies for their DHEA metabolites. I would love to see blood work as I have seen just DHEA have a very potent shutdown for people solo.

I don't have access to them anymore, but the Primordail claims were fairly consistent with customer submitted bloodwork. We had seen very little in terms of suppression (sometimes 5-10%), and AndroLean was a different beast all together in that v3 seemed to consistently show elevated test at the end of cycle.

nate3993
11-28-2012, 02:44 PM
I don't have access to them anymore, but the Primordail claims were fairly consistent with customer submitted bloodwork. We had seen very little in terms of suppression (sometimes 5-10%), and AndroLean was a different beast all together in that v3 seemed to consistently show elevated test at the end of cycle.

you liked your own post. lmao


and this is why i wouldvve loved to use lean. i actually have 2 bottles right now, but they ain't going to consumed by me. i'm sitting on em. haha

h2s
11-28-2012, 02:51 PM
you liked your own post. lmao


and this is why i wouldvve loved to use lean. i actually have 2 bottles right now, but they ain't going to consumed by me. i'm sitting on em. haha

Which one? lol...I am still getting used to tapatalk.

nate3993
11-28-2012, 02:58 PM
Which one? lol...I am still getting used to tapatalk.

the one i quoted.