CD's Natural Testosterone boosting regimen

[Cdsnuts]

Back by popular demand....

I've had more then several people reach out to me to revisit this topic, and seeing as the last time I dropped it here it was buried inside another thread, I'm going to make it a standalone so that it's easier to find for those that are interested.

The key points are:

Make sure your diet and training are on point.

You're going to take one herb per day and then move on to the next one the following day. You're not going to want to spend more then a day or two on each herb. The whole point is to avoid the inevitable tolerance that your body will put up against any substance which is taken on too regular of a basis. By rotating your herbs in this fashion, you get that nice, juicy Testosterone boost each and every time you take it, as opposed to just the first couple times and then having the magic fade quickly.

The only downside of this is there is a significant purchase up front, but when you cycle them properly, they last forever. You want to start out with a minimum of 7 herbs. When funds become available, purchase another one or two, and keep adding on. I personally rotate about 20+ different herbs (one each day) that brings me to a complete three week cycle. Once I get to the end, I start all over again. The best part is, you can do this indefinitely. It never stops producing results.....it's always fresh. The more herbs you have in the rotation, the stronger you can keep the response from each one of them because more time has passed since the last time you've taken it. I say you need 7 to start because you want to wait at minimum a week between taking each particular herb. The longer you wait, the better the response.

By using these herbs in this fashion I've felt the best I've ever felt in my life. I feel like i'm "on" all the time. Well being, sex drive, performance and strength, muscle building are all kept naturally at the highest possible levels. It's a great feeling!

This is my complete list in no particular order:

Pine Pollen
Pine pollen extract
Ant Extract
Cistanche
He Shou Wu
Schisandra
Guduchi
Maral Root.
Shilajit pitch
Tongkat Ali
Rhodiola
Eleuthero
Ashwaganda
Mucana
Cordyceps
Lions mane
Tribulus (liftmode)
Muira puama
Catauba bark
Butea superba
Suma root extract
Royal jelly
maca (macapro)


The majority of these can be grabbed at Super Man Herbs - Pine Pollen, Mushrooms, Shilajit and More (https://jt231.isrefer.com/go/supermanherbs/cdsnuts/) . So far I haven't found another supplier that provides the quality of product that they do. This can be vouched for by many guys here that have already tried many of their herbs. Also, by opting in to their site, you get free stuff based on what you buy, and they regularly send out discounts to people on their mailing list. Win win.

Once you're up and running and you have enough herbs in your stash, you can use this as a PCT or just to feel as good as you possibly can at all times. PCT can sometimes be a downer, depending on what you've been running. I've never had the PCT blues since starting this program. Granted, I don't run anything crazy or too suppressive, but it still sucks coming off of something that feels as good as R andro/androhard. Within days of getting back on this regimen, I feel great again! The best part is, it's all natural and non suppressive. Herbs build you up, not shut you down. Not to mention they are loaded with minerals, nutrients, phytochemicals and vitamins, so they're actually healthy to take as well.

So for those of you that have been asking, here you go.

[Grape Ape]

Have you any experience with stacking two or more herbs each day?

I've been cycling seven test boosters since your last suggestion, and I do enjoy it. I will continue, but I don't necessarily get that WOW factor from each herb like you mention. Just better peramiters all around. Is there any reason to think that a higher dose would be better when cycling in this fashion?

Wouldn't a few of these herbs be better cycled in longer durations to get their overall intended effect? IE: Lions Mane, Ashwaganda, Rhodiola, Cordyceps.

[Cdsnuts]

Have you any experience with stacking two or more herbs each day?

I've been cycling seven test boosters since your last suggestion, and I do enjoy it. I will continue, but I don't necessarily get that WOW factor from each herb like you mention. Just better peramiters all around. Is there any reason to think that a higher dose would be better when cycling in this fashion?

Wouldn't a few of these herbs be better cycled in longer durations to get their overall intended effect? IE: Lions Mane, Ashwaganda, Rhodiola, Cordyceps.

If you've been rotating seven herbs since the last time I suggested this, then you are certainly not getting everything you can out of them as it was almost a year ago since that last post. I always suggest to start with seven and add on as funds become available. The more herbs you cycle, the more you increase your chance to get the "wow factor." Seeing as it's been a whole year and you've been cycling the same seven herbs, you're most likely going a little stale. Should you increase the time between taking each herb from every 7 days to say, every 14 days, or even better, every 21 days, you will get a bigger punch out of that herb the next time you finally take it. You could increase the dose and keep it at a 7 day rotation, and you will get better results.....for a short while.... but you're just going to be on your way to losing the magic with that herb by doing that. Increasing the time between dosages will yield you better results.

One of the reasons more herbs in the cycle works so much better is that not all herbs increase Testosterone in the same fashion. by including as many different herbs as you can, you're hitting it from all possible angles. You NEVER get stale when you're operating on a 21 day cycle. As I mentioned the only downside is getting all of the herbs and the cost factor. That's why if you get one or two a month, or whatever you can afford, you build your stash quite significantly. Before you know it you're running a nice three week cycle and feeling awesome. I wish everyone could do it and see exactly what I'm talking about.

I have of course experimented with stacking several herbs at a time, but then you can't use them properly for a week or two, so if you're going to experiment, keep that in mind. Some of my favorite combo's are: Tonkat and Tribulus (liftmode) (This makes you feel god like.....no joke) Ginseng and Cistanche and Cordyceps and Rhodiola (awesome endurance combo) Also, when you take your herbs, wash them down with some caffeine for an added boost. I always take mine straight in the morning on an empty stomach and wash them down with a cup of coffee or tea, depending on my mood and what I'm doing that day. The caffeine takes things with the herbs to another level. Try it.

In regards to some of these and duration.....the adaptagens have a little more leeway with usage as do the straight up T boosters. And yes, you're correct with the lions mane, you can use that daily with good results because it's not a T booster, more of a brain booster, but a better brain leads to a better body, for sure. I say this just so that I don't have to split hairs. If I start to differentiate with these, then I'll have everyone asking me can I take "fill in the blank with the herb" for more then one day a week?

You guys here of course are alot more educated then most folks when it comes to things like this. So at this site, these differentiation's can be made without too much trouble. Still though......space those T boosters out. As far as possible. If you can ever find a way to get yourself on a 21 day cycle, you WILL have that wow factor.

[Thanksgiving]

Hey man thanks for posting that herb cycle again, really helpful.

What do you find to be the sweet spot with dosage, do you follow the recommendations on supermanherbs.com?

I'm coming off my third extended water fast, how many days of refeeding would you recommend before starting up with the herbs?

Also regarding water fast, I did a lot of research on your posts and saw some updated info: do you still recommend an extended raw food diet or how soon would you recommend going back into carb backloading? Will probably juice and raw feed for a week or two and then backload again and start the herbs at that time.

Thanks so much CD for all your helpful info. I have so much respect for the effort you put into helping other people and the more I recover the more proud I am of your achievements. Rock on!

[Grape Ape]

I've been cycling the 7 herbs for about 8-10 weeks now.

[WesleyInman]

I've been cycling the 7 herbs for about 8-10 weeks now.

What result have you had so far??

Also what was the total cost per month to do this?

Thank you!!

[Cdsnuts]

I've been cycling the 7 herbs for about 8-10 weeks now.

Well that's certainly not "since my last suggestion." which was a year ago.

There could be a multitude of reasons of why you're not getting the results that I speak of. Again, 20+ different herbs is going to give you waaaaay better results than seven, but you should still be getting good results with 7. Have you tried playing with the dosage? Adding caffeine? Taking them on an empty stomach? Is your training and diet dialed in? You sleeping good? Etc. You're getting good results, just not the results that I'm getting with the stash I have....that's understandable.

Also, it's been almost two and a half months you've been doing it. Surely you could have picked up a few more herbs to add to your rotation. Again, the ultimate suggestion is to cycle as many as you can. 7 is simply a starting point to give you AT LEAST a week between taking each one. The longer you go between doses, the stronger the hit.

[Cdsnuts]

What result have you had so far??

Also what was the total cost per month to do this?

Thank you!!

Honestly Wes.....for someone who is on TRT and runs as many PH's as you do, this isn't really going to be your bag my man. Unless you were planning on jumping off of everything and trying to do a hard restart.....this simply doesn't make sense for you.

[Cdsnuts]

Hey man thanks for posting that herb cycle again, really helpful.

What do you find to be the sweet spot with dosage, do you follow the recommendations on supermanherbs.com?

I'm coming off my third extended water fast, how many days of refeeding would you recommend before starting up with the herbs?

Also regarding water fast, I did a lot of research on your posts and saw some updated info: do you still recommend an extended raw food diet or how soon would you recommend going back into carb backloading? Will probably juice and raw feed for a week or two and then backload again and start the herbs at that time.

Thanks so much CD for all your helpful info. I have so much respect for the effort you put into helping other people and the more I recover the more proud I am of your achievements. Rock on!

Let's stay on topic.....not going to go into the other stuff. PM me for that.

I'd be refed for a month before starting herb cycling. Dosages can be played with for sure. What works for some isn't going to work for others and vice versa. You may need more, you may need less. There isn't really a one size fits all build here. The only thing you need to do is to make sure you're spacing your herbs as far apart as you possibly can for the most pay back possible. The only way to do that is to stock up on as many as you can over time. Believe me on this. If you think you feel good now, follow this one thing and it will take you to the next level.

People don't really do the 21 day cycle because of financial reasons and I get that. But if you want these results, this is what you have to do.

And if financial reasons are an issue, which to most they are, get on SH's mailing list. They are constantly sending discounts for one thing or another. You'll catch better deals this way and you'll be able to add to your stock quicker, and cheaper.

[Freepressright]

It has been my understanding that in the case of Pine Pollen and Royal Jelly, those are best to be taken daily since they contain amounts of actual testosterone and male hormones, whereas the other herbs are best cycled.

Are there any on your list that you take daily or is everything in a cycle?

[English]

It has been my understanding that in the case of Pine Pollen and Royal Jelly, those are best to be taken daily since they contain amounts of actual testosterone and male hormones, whereas the other herbs are best cycled.

Are there any on your list that you take daily or is everything in a cycle?


It has been my understanding that in the case of Pine Pollen and Royal Jelly, those are best to be taken daily since they contain amounts of actual testosterone and male hormones, whereas the other herbs are best cycled.

Are there any on your list that you take daily or is everything in a cycle?

Pine pollen contains T, that is true, however taken orally as pollen in its raw form the T in it gets almost entirely consumed by the digestion process. The main benefit of pine pollen taken this way is the nutrients, vitamins, trace elements contained, which will raise T naturally. If you want the T containing benefits of pine pollen, you need to take it as an extract in the form of liquid tincture by absorbing it either through the mouth or anus. Doing this is akin to TRT though, exogenous T will always be suppressive, so IMO this makes little sense. I imagine the same is true for royal jelly, but i do not know about its content of T or vitamins etc.
So as with CD's earlier explanation concerning which are T boosters and which do the same but via less direct means - such as via nutrient content or nootropic capabilities - if you really want to hit every avenue, then yes you could take pine pollen daily simply for its nutritional value, not as a tincture, while rotating all the other herbs that directly affect the HTPA axis. Bottom line though is that if you employ this level of detail (which i did for a while) you can get stressed by all the stuff you have to take and when, and it costs more and more. Better i think to just buy the list that CD has suggested and free your mind of the detail, just rotate the whole thing. It works. My last T level was over 900 natty, just those herbs + good mind and lifestyle, and i don't stress over them - ie if i go on holiday i'm not taking anything for that period.
One thing not on that list is spirulina, i take that everyday, it is the most densely populated natural substance on earth with vitamins, minerals and protein and it's cheap.

[English]

Back by popular demand....

I've had more then several people reach out to me to revisit this topic, and seeing as the last time I dropped it here it was buried inside another thread, I'm going to make it a standalone so that it's easier to find for those that are interested.

The key points are:

Make sure your diet and training are on point.

You're going to take one herb per day and then move on to the next one the following day. You're not going to want to spend more then a day or two on each herb. The whole point is to avoid the inevitable tolerance that your body will put up against any substance which is taken on too regular of a basis. By rotating your herbs in this fashion, you get that nice, juicy Testosterone boost each and every time you take it, as opposed to just the first couple times and then having the magic fade quickly.

The only downside of this is there is a significant purchase up front, but when you cycle them properly, they last forever. You want to start out with a minimum of 7 herbs. When funds become available, purchase another one or two, and keep adding on. I personally rotate about 20+ different herbs (one each day) that brings me to a complete three week cycle. Once I get to the end, I start all over again. The best part is, you can do this indefinitely. It never stops producing results.....it's always fresh. The more herbs you have in the rotation, the stronger you can keep the response from each one of them because more time has passed since the last time you've taken it. I say you need 7 to start because you want to wait at minimum a week between taking each particular herb. The longer you wait, the better the response.

By using these herbs in this fashion I've felt the best I've ever felt in my life. I feel like i'm "on" all the time. Well being, sex drive, performance and strength, muscle building are all kept naturally at the highest possible levels. It's a great feeling!

This is my complete list in no particular order:

Pine Pollen
Pine pollen extract
Ant Extract
Cistanche
He Shou Wu
Schisandra
Guduchi
Maral Root.
Shilajit pitch
Tongkat Ali
Rhodiola
Eleuthero
Ashwaganda
Mucana
Cordyceps
Lions mane
Tribulus (liftmode)
Muira puama
Catauba bark
Butea superba
Suma root extract
Royal jelly
maca (macapro)


The majority of these can be grabbed at Super Man Herbs - Pine Pollen, Mushrooms, Shilajit and More (https://jt231.isrefer.com/go/supermanherbs/cdsnuts/) . So far I haven't found another supplier that provides the quality of product that they do. This can be vouched for by many guys here that have already tried many of their herbs. Also, by opting in to their site, you get free stuff based on what you buy, and they regularly send out discounts to people on their mailing list. Win win.

Once you're up and running and you have enough herbs in your stash, you can use this as a PCT or just to feel as good as you possibly can at all times. PCT can sometimes be a downer, depending on what you've been running. I've never had the PCT blues since starting this program. Granted, I don't run anything crazy or too suppressive, but it still sucks coming off of something that feels as good as R andro/androhard. Within days of getting back on this regimen, I feel great again! The best part is, it's all natural and non suppressive. Herbs build you up, not shut you down. Not to mention they are loaded with minerals, nutrients, phytochemicals and vitamins, so they're actually healthy to take as well.

So for those of you that have been asking, here you go.

CD - have you checked all those herbs raise T via means not including lowering DHT? I take most of those herbs on the list already but some i don't and wish to order, but only if they have nothing to do with 5AR etc. For example i recall MACA raises T partly through suppression of DHT. When i first put a list together of herbs to rotate, i literally knocked a third of them off for this reason after spending about 2 weeks researching each action. I cannot for the life of me remember which ones i discounted - apart from MACA, hence the question. I appreciate i may be being a little over cautious. I guess i'm still somewhat paranoid after recent experience............

[Freepressright]

Pine pollen contains T, that is true, however taken orally as pollen in its raw form the T in it gets almost entirely consumed by the digestion process. The main benefit of pine pollen taken this way is the nutrients, vitamins, trace elements contained, which will raise T naturally. If you want the T containing benefits of pine pollen, you need to take it as an extract in the form of liquid tincture by absorbing it either through the mouth or anus. Doing this is akin to TRT though, exogenous T will always be suppressive, so IMO this makes little sense. I imagine the same is true for royal jelly, but i do not know about its content of T or vitamins etc.
So as with CD's earlier explanation concerning which are T boosters and which do the same but via less direct means - such as via nutrient content or nootropic capabilities - if you really want to hit every avenue, then yes you could take pine pollen daily simply for its nutritional value, not as a tincture, while rotating all the other herbs that directly affect the HTPA axis. Bottom line though is that if you employ this level of detail (which i did for a while) you can get stressed by all the stuff you have to take and when, and it costs more and more. Better i think to just buy the list that CD has suggested and free your mind of the detail, just rotate the whole thing. It works. My last T level was over 900 natty, just those herbs + good mind and lifestyle, and i don't stress over them - ie if i go on holiday i'm not taking anything for that period.
One thing not on that list is spirulina, i take that everyday, it is the most densely populated natural substance on earth with vitamins, minerals and protein and it's cheap.

10-4 on the tincture. If you recall, I actually ran a log on it a while back and advocated for its use, considering the destruction of hormones by GI juices.

Wesley also ran a mini log when I sent him a bottle.

[Freepressright]

Common sense would dictate that you're correct that when you extract the hormones out of the pine pollen, you're technically feeding yourself an exogenous source of T and it would shut down natural production. But a number of people who use it seem to think otherwise because of it being a natural source.

The guy over at anabolicmen.com and the Superman Herbs people say they don't believe it to be suppressive.

[Freepressright]

A person had asked Ali over at Anabolic Men the following question:

"Wouldn't taking an external form of testosterone reduce ones own production? The same as taking synthetic steroids reduce and ultimately eliminate LH production."


To which he replied:

"This was a major concern for me before I started experimenting with Royal Jelly and Pine Pollen as both contain actual testosterone.

However after using both of the compounds for years now, my LH levels have only gone upwards.

I believe that it's simply due to the fact that naturally occurring testosterone is not after all the same thing as synthetic testosterone which is made in the lab, even though their structure is similar."

[Cdsnuts]

It has been my understanding that in the case of Pine Pollen and Royal Jelly, those are best to be taken daily since they contain amounts of actual testosterone and male hormones, whereas the other herbs are best cycled.

Are there any on your list that you take daily or is everything in a cycle?

You are absolutely correct. Again, I'm used to dealing with a very, very different crowd. I try and keep things simple out of habit anymore as the more in detail I get the more I end up confusing alot of guys. This place as I had mentioned, is different in that regards.

What I would personally take daily and have, for some periods of time are:

Pine Pollen Powder and extract
Royal Jelly
Maca (is actually a food)
Suma Root extract.

And again, alot of the adaptogens are flexible in their dosing and producing the desired effects. Now, to clarify, when I say take these daily, I would take one of them daily for awhile and then switch to something else. So take PP daily for a month or so, then jump on the Royal jelly for a month, etc. You can certainly try them all at once on a daily basis, but I don't see the need to do that. So even these are being cycled, just not everyday.

[Cdsnuts]

CD - have you checked all those herbs raise T via means not including lowering DHT? I take most of those herbs on the list already but some i don't and wish to order, but only if they have nothing to do with 5AR etc. For example i recall MACA raises T partly through suppression of DHT. When i first put a list together of herbs to rotate, i literally knocked a third of them off for this reason after spending about 2 weeks researching each action. I cannot for the life of me remember which ones i discounted - apart from MACA, hence the question. I appreciate i may be being a little over cautious. I guess i'm still somewhat paranoid after recent experience............

You're good on the maca....unless you really don't want to take it. I've never had any issues with it at all. Only positive experiences. And yes, everything on this list IS NOT a DHT inhibitor in anyway that would effect us negatively. Again, all positive responses to EVERYTHING on this list.

[Cdsnuts]

A person had asked Ali over at Anabolic Men the following question:

"Wouldn't taking an external form of testosterone reduce ones own production? The same as taking synthetic steroids reduce and ultimately eliminate LH production."


To which he replied:

"This was a major concern for me before I started experimenting with Royal Jelly and Pine Pollen as both contain actual testosterone.

However after using both of the compounds for years now, my LH levels have only gone upwards.

I believe that it's simply due to the fact that naturally occurring testosterone is not after all the same thing as synthetic testosterone which is made in the lab, even though their structure is similar."

I'm not sure how, or why, but the naturally occurring phyto-androgens seem to work WITH our bodies.....not against it. I've never heard of any type of suppression from using natural plant sources of these androgens. Just the opposite. The body seems to get stronger and better over time.

[Cdsnuts]

Pine pollen contains T, that is true, however taken orally as pollen in its raw form the T in it gets almost entirely consumed by the digestion process. The main benefit of pine pollen taken this way is the nutrients, vitamins, trace elements contained, which will raise T naturally. If you want the T containing benefits of pine pollen, you need to take it as an extract in the form of liquid tincture by absorbing it either through the mouth or anus. Doing this is akin to TRT though, exogenous T will always be suppressive, so IMO this makes little sense. I imagine the same is true for royal jelly, but i do not know about its content of T or vitamins etc.
So as with CD's earlier explanation concerning which are T boosters and which do the same but via less direct means - such as via nutrient content or nootropic capabilities - if you really want to hit every avenue, then yes you could take pine pollen daily simply for its nutritional value, not as a tincture, while rotating all the other herbs that directly affect the HTPA axis. Bottom line though is that if you employ this level of detail (which i did for a while) you can get stressed by all the stuff you have to take and when, and it costs more and more. Better i think to just buy the list that CD has suggested and free your mind of the detail, just rotate the whole thing. It works. My last T level was over 900 natty, just those herbs + good mind and lifestyle, and i don't stress over them - ie if i go on holiday i'm not taking anything for that period.
One thing not on that list is spirulina, i take that everyday, it is the most densely populated natural substance on earth with vitamins, minerals and protein and it's cheap.

That is exactly why I recommend just cycling everything. You can practically "set it and forget it" and the results are ALWAYS amazing. ANYONE that has done this with a large amount of herbs in their cycle has completely changed the way they feel in the course of a few weeks. It's that powerful. And, the results continue to grow over time. It really is fantastic.

About spirulina.....definitely a good one, and one that I take daily along with chlorella. I take them after my workouts as they are LOADED with vitamins and minerals not to mention protein. Definitely a few good add ons here if you can afford it.

[WesleyInman]

Honestly Wes.....for someone who is on TRT and runs as many PH's as you do, this isn't really going to be your bag my man. Unless you were planning on jumping off of everything and trying to do a hard restart.....this simply doesn't make sense for you.

For sure. I am thinking for a few of my clients tbh. I have other options that work, but wouldn't mind another option if cost effective. Never personally used such a combo, so I am all ears!

[derekh83]

CDs, is everything on your list marked if you didn't get it from Superman? I have ordered a few things for Superman before and I didn't get the effect I wanted, but I did not know about cycling the herbs this way. Thank you for the repost. I will be giving this a try.

[Cdsnuts]

CDs, is everything on your list marked if you didn't get it from Superman? I have ordered a few things for Superman before and I didn't get the effect I wanted, but I did not know about cycling the herbs this way. Thank you for the repost. I will be giving this a try.

No, it's not.

Simply go to their page and pull down the herbs menu. You'll see MOST of them are there. The other ones I purchase I can give you my favorite sources if you like.

Remember....the more time between dosing one particular herb, the better.

[Cdsnuts]

Okay.....so here's an example.

Just got this email today....They (Superman Herbs) are offering $10 off a new shilijat product that is in liquid form. If you've ever used the pitch, you know how difficult it can be to work with. The shit is very sticky and hard to maneuver. I'm gonna be trying this new liquid form myself as it's one of my favorites. Loaded with minerals and packs a good punch of energy. Great for pre-workout, which is how I dose this one.

For those of you who aren't on their list, you can go here to see exactly what I'm talking about. Shilajit - Multiple Kinds - Shilajit Powder, Resin and Pitch (https://jt231.isrefer.com/go/resin/cdsnuts/) .

This is what I mean about being able to add things to your stash at a discount. They are constantly doing things like this.

[hossam]

in order to cycle all that amount of herb i prefer to buy bulk
purchase from China, way much cheaper,
and from a legit supplier
For me i never stop taken Royal jelly even if i am on cycle
and i never ever had a weak erection or loss of sexual desire
even in PCT, and in PCT i cycle the herbs naturally and i never
use Nolva or Clomid.
Great information in this thread, should be sticky!

[English]

A person had asked Ali over at Anabolic Men the following question:

"Wouldn't taking an external form of testosterone reduce ones own production? The same as taking synthetic steroids reduce and ultimately eliminate LH production."


To which he replied:

"This was a major concern for me before I started experimenting with Royal Jelly and Pine Pollen as both contain actual testosterone.

However after using both of the compounds for years now, my LH levels have only gone upwards.

I believe that it's simply due to the fact that naturally occurring testosterone is not after all the same thing as synthetic testosterone which is made in the lab, even though their structure is similar."

I have to throw some logic on this, which is the inescapeable fact that if you put bio identical T into your bloodstream then it will suppress the HPTA axis to some degree, dependent on the volume, otherwise we could all forget everything else and simply swill a relatively small amount of pine pollen tincture in our mouths 3 times a day and add maybe 200 or more to our T levels. What must be happening is that the stunning array of vitamins, minerals and trace elements found in pine pollen simply have an effect that more than counteracts the suppression of the T within it. This is pretty logical as if you provide a guy with all the vitamins and minerals he needs then his T will go up hugely versus a guy without, and the vast majority of people are deficient in many.
For this reason, i cannot see any value in taking the tincture when you can take the pollen in it's natural, cheaper form and get all the vitamins and minerals etc. that are the cause of the rise in LH in the first place. I bet you that if the guy experiencing higher LH on pine pollen tincture took the same tincture with the T taken out, his LH would be even higher.
Not trying to be argumentative, just stating the obvious given the fairly simple workings of the HPTA.....

[English]

in order to cycle all that amount of herb i prefer to buy bulk
purchase from China, way much cheaper,
and from a legit supplier
For me i never stop taken Royal jelly even if i am on cycle
and i never ever had a weak erection or loss of sexual desire
even in PCT, and in PCT i cycle the herbs naturally and i never
use Nolva or Clomid.
Great information in this thread, should be sticky!

All very well and good if you've managed to find a legit source, but China is a tricky place to buy anything from or do any kind of business with, you can receive 100% legit supplement one week, the next its chopped with powder and contains harmful quantities of lead. Plenty of such incidents found by the FDA in regards to China as well as plenty of other countries. For me though china is the worst. The country attacks my businesses every bloody week (cyber attacks)

[Freepressright]

I have to throw some logic on this, which is the inescapeable fact that if you put bio identical T into your bloodstream then it will suppress the HPTA axis to some degree, dependent on the volume, otherwise we could all forget everything else and simply swill a relatively small amount of pine pollen tincture in our mouths 3 times a day and add maybe 200 or more to our T levels. What must be happening is that the stunning array of vitamins, minerals and trace elements found in pine pollen simply have an effect that more than counteracts the suppression of the T within it. This is pretty logical as if you provide a guy with all the vitamins and minerals he needs then his T will go up hugely versus a guy without, and the vast majority of people are deficient in many.
For this reason, i cannot see any value in taking the tincture when you can take the pollen in it's natural, cheaper form and get all the vitamins and minerals etc. that are the cause of the rise in LH in the first place. I bet you that if the guy experiencing higher LH on pine pollen tincture took the same tincture with the T taken out, his LH would be even higher.
Not trying to be argumentative, just stating the obvious given the fairly simple workings of the HPTA.....

You may be right, you may be wrong. There is always that inescapable reality that nature sometimes does things science struggles to explain. I've yet to find a single person taking the tincture complain of symptoms of suppression, although based on the workings of the HPTA, logic tells us it would suppress.

I'm never entirely dismissive of ideas that defy conventional wisdom. I've used the tincture on many occasions and will continue to do so. Could be that it's nature's TRT. Who knows.

[English]

Until i understand how bumblebees fly i can accept what you are saying could be right, no logic in either thing whatsoever, yet bumblebees do still fly!

[Atticas]

CDsnuts, where do you order your Muira Puama and Suma Root Extract from

[TubZy]

That is exactly why I recommend just cycling everything. You can practically "set it and forget it" and the results are ALWAYS amazing. ANYONE that has done this with a large amount of herbs in their cycle has completely changed the way they feel in the course of a few weeks. It's that powerful. And, the results continue to grow over time. It really is fantastic.

About spirulina.....definitely a good one, and one that I take daily along with chlorella. I take them after my workouts as they are LOADED with vitamins and minerals not to mention protein. Definitely a few good add ons here if you can afford it.

Not trying to be a dick, but spirulina is very high in GLA (Gamma Linolenic Acid) which is a potent DHT inhibitor. I bought spirulina at first then read about it and I just stay with chorella now instead. If you handle it fine, awesome, but I would personally stay away. See below:


Another source of DHT blockers is Gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), an essential fatty acid (EFA) found mostly in plant-based oils such as evening primrose oil, black currant seed oil, and borage oil. EFAs are necessary for healthy brain function, bone health, stimulation of skin and hair growth, and metabolism. GLA has been shown in studies to inhibit DHT-enhanced activity of 5 alpha-reductase. (4) In one study, animals treated with GLA had a noticeable effect on inhibiting 5 alpha-reductase type 2.(5) In the study, researchers investigating another compound that inhibited 5 alpha-reductase type 2 suggested this particular agent might be effective for fighting male pattern baldness.

5 alpha-reductase-catalyzed conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is increased in prostatic adenocarcinoma cells: suppression by 15-lip... - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12589947?dopt=Abstract)

The extract of Thujae occidentalis semen inhibited 5alpha-reductase and androchronogenetic alopecia of B6CBAF1/j hybrid mouse. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12670719?dopt=Abstract)

GLA Is A Powerful DHT Inhibitor (http://www.soulcysters.net/showthread.php/91386-GLA-Is-A-Powerful-DHT-Inhibitor)

[Maxout777]

Not trying to be a dick, but spirulina is very high in GLA (Gamma Linolenic Acid) which is a potent DHT inhibitor. I bought spirulina at first then read about it and I just stay with chorella now instead. If you handle it fine, awesome, but I would personally stay away. See below:


Another source of DHT blockers is Gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), an essential fatty acid (EFA) found mostly in plant-based oils such as evening primrose oil, black currant seed oil, and borage oil. EFAs are necessary for healthy brain function, bone health, stimulation of skin and hair growth, and metabolism. GLA has been shown in studies to inhibit DHT-enhanced activity of 5 alpha-reductase. (4) In one study, animals treated with GLA had a noticeable effect on inhibiting 5 alpha-reductase type 2.(5) In the study, researchers investigating another compound that inhibited 5 alpha-reductase type 2 suggested this particular agent might be effective for fighting male pattern baldness.

5 alpha-reductase-catalyzed conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is increased in prostatic adenocarcinoma cells: suppression by 15-lip... - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12589947?dopt=Abstract)

The extract of Thujae occidentalis semen inhibited 5alpha-reductase and androchronogenetic alopecia of B6CBAF1/j hybrid mouse. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12670719?dopt=Abstract)

GLA Is A Powerful DHT Inhibitor (http://www.soulcysters.net/showthread.php/91386-GLA-Is-A-Powerful-DHT-Inhibitor)

A lot of things that show up in studies as 5AR inhibitors (rice, resveratrol, zinc) I consume fairly frequently with no problems. I take Wicked Supplements' TocoCaps every day and it contains beta sitosterol (a component in saw Palmetto, which is what fucked me) and it does nothing but benefit me (FWIW, it's only 8mg which is small in comparison to a Saw Palmetto extract). But I was kinda this way originally because of my experience but I took the plunge on TocoCaps, Res, rice, zinc, coconut oil (all shown in studies as 5AR/DHT inhibitors), yet I make monthly (sometimes more than that) progress to recovery, and I'm in a pretty good place right now to where I rarely think about PFS.

The main ones I would avoid are: Finasteride/dutasteride (obviously), saw palmetto berry or extract/beta-sitosterol, pygeum, or high dose zinc. Those are all proven to cause people PFS-like problems.

[TubZy]

A lot of things that show up in studies as 5AR inhibitors (rice, resveratrol, zinc) I consume fairly frequently with no problems. I take Wicked Supplements' TocoCaps every day and it contains beta sitosterol (a component in saw Palmetto, which is what fucked me) and it does nothing but benefit me (FWIW, it's only 8mg which is small in comparison to a Saw Palmetto extract). But I was kinda this way originally because of my experience but I took the plunge on TocoCaps, Res, rice, zinc, coconut oil (all shown in studies as 5AR/DHT inhibitors), yet I make monthly (sometimes more than that) progress to recovery, and I'm in a pretty good place right now to where I rarely think about PFS.

The main ones I would avoid are: Finasteride/dutasteride (obviously), saw palmetto berry or extract/beta-sitosterol, pygeum, or high dose zinc. Those are all proven to cause people PFS-like problems.

Studies as in vitro or vivo? Vitro I agree, a lot of the studies can be disregarded but vivo studies should be looked at more closely.

2 out of 3 5AR inhibitors you just named also have anti estrogenic properties (zinc and resveratrol) which is probably off sets any 5AR inhibition. I take both of those supplements everyday (sustain alpha and zinc picolinate) with no problems. I couldn't tell you my personal experience with rice as I eat keto but I doubt a food would have a similar effect in terms of potency compared to an herbal extract.

Regarding Tococaps, read this thread (post #126 and #127): Eric Potratz.... new company, new product! - Page 13 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/supplements/1271-eric-potratz-new-company-new-product-13.html)

5ARI properties with phytosterols occur with 300mg per day, tococaps contains under 10mg per serving so that is why it doesn't effect us much (I use tocotrienols too with no sides)

"The main ones I would avoid are: Finasteride/dutasteride (obviously), saw palmetto berry or extract/beta-sitosterol, pygeum, or high dose zinc. Those are all proven to cause people PFS-like problems."

I would also include fenugreek (read this: Saw Palmetto and Fenugreek...im in trouble! (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/supplements/2607-saw-palmetto-fenugreek-im-trouble.html)), stinging nettle root (I had issues with it; so did others and I think CD nuts too did read this thread: Super Man Herbs - Page 8 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/supplements/2664-super-man-herbs-8.html))

Point is to just be careful regarding what you take. By taking in a bunch of natural 5ARI's could be just as detrimental especially to anyone who suffered/suffers from PFS as we are already sensitive enough. I think as time goes on though and you keep recovering your body can handle them normally again. I remember a year ago I couldn't handle one drop of caffeine and now I'm back to drinking a light cup of coffee again and some tea and feel fine.

[Maxout777]

Studies as in vitro or vivo? Vitro I agree, a lot of the studies can be disregarded but vivo studies should be looked at more closely.

2 out of 3 5AR inhibitors you just named also have anti estrogenic properties (zinc and resveratrol) which is probably off sets any 5AR inhibition. I take both of those supplements everyday (sustain alpha and zinc picolinate) with no problems. I couldn't tell you my personal experience with rice as I eat keto but I doubt a food would have a similar effect in terms of potency compared to an herbal extract.

Regarding Tococaps, read this thread (post #126 and #127): Eric Potratz.... new company, new product! - Page 13 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/supplements/1271-eric-potratz-new-company-new-product-13.html)

5ARI properties with phytosterols occur with 300mg per day, tococaps contains under 10mg per serving so that is why it doesn't effect us much (I use tocotrienols too with no sides)

"The main ones I would avoid are: Finasteride/dutasteride (obviously), saw palmetto berry or extract/beta-sitosterol, pygeum, or high dose zinc. Those are all proven to cause people PFS-like problems."

I would also include fenugreek (read this: Saw Palmetto and Fenugreek...im in trouble! (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/supplements/2607-saw-palmetto-fenugreek-im-trouble.html)), stinging nettle root (I had issues with it; so did others and I think CD nuts too did read this thread: Super Man Herbs - Page 8 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/supplements/2664-super-man-herbs-8.html))

Point is to just be careful regarding what you take. By taking in a bunch of natural 5ARI's could be just as detrimental especially to anyone who suffered/suffers from PFS as we are already sensitive enough. I think as time goes on though and you keep recovering your body can handle them normally again. I remember a year ago I couldn't handle one drop of caffeine and now I'm back to drinking a light cup of coffee again and some tea and feel fine.

I agree with you on all the points you just mentioned, especially on Fenugreek and Nettle, good catch on me leaving those off, I just like to avoid the "analysis paralysis" piece of this whole thing. You've got guys on here who are scared to even touch fish oil.

[TubZy]

I agree with you on all the points you just mentioned, especially on Fenugreek and Nettle, good catch on me leaving those off, I just like to avoid the "analysis paralysis" piece of this whole thing. You've got guys on here who are scared to even touch fish oil.

Yeah, I see I agree. Oh wow, fish oil lol? That is a first for me.

[Cdsnuts]

Not trying to be a dick, but spirulina is very high in GLA (Gamma Linolenic Acid) which is a potent DHT inhibitor. I bought spirulina at first then read about it and I just stay with chorella now instead. If you handle it fine, awesome, but I would personally stay away. See below:


Another source of DHT blockers is Gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), an essential fatty acid (EFA) found mostly in plant-based oils such as evening primrose oil, black currant seed oil, and borage oil. EFAs are necessary for healthy brain function, bone health, stimulation of skin and hair growth, and metabolism. GLA has been shown in studies to inhibit DHT-enhanced activity of 5 alpha-reductase. (4) In one study, animals treated with GLA had a noticeable effect on inhibiting 5 alpha-reductase type 2.(5) In the study, researchers investigating another compound that inhibited 5 alpha-reductase type 2 suggested this particular agent might be effective for fighting male pattern baldness.

5 alpha-reductase-catalyzed conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is increased in prostatic adenocarcinoma cells: suppression by 15-lip... - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12589947?dopt=Abstract)

The extract of Thujae occidentalis semen inhibited 5alpha-reductase and androchronogenetic alopecia of B6CBAF1/j hybrid mouse. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12670719?dopt=Abstract)

GLA Is A Powerful DHT Inhibitor (http://www.soulcysters.net/showthread.php/91386-GLA-Is-A-Powerful-DHT-Inhibitor)

I wouldn't take this as you trying to be a dick. Just trying to supply helpful information which here is always welcomed.

This supplement (which I actually consider a food moreso than a supplement) falls into the category of other natural substances whereby their other benefits FAR out weight any natural 5ar inhibition that they might have. I'm extremely sensitive to any 5ar inhibition as are most PFS guys....which is why we are PFS guys in the first place, right? I haven't noticed ANY negatives from this at all. None. As a matter of fact, anything that I have on my lists don't give me any negative effects at all either, otherwise they wouldn't be on the list in the first place. My list is based on my own experiences with usage over the past many years of experimentation. Obviously everyone's different when it comes to their constitutions and their genetic predispositions so care should be taken any time your start something new. But seeing as it's not an extract and it's in it's natural form, the chances of anything grave coming out of taking Spirulina are ridiculously low. So low in fact, I wouldn't bother worrying about it.

Thanks for the studies though, and welcome to the site.

[TubZy]

I wouldn't take this as you trying to be a dick. Just trying to supply helpful information which here is always welcomed.

This supplement (which I actually consider a food moreso than a supplement) falls into the category of other natural substances whereby their other benefits FAR out weight any natural 5ar inhibition that they might have. I'm extremely sensitive to any 5ar inhibition as are most PFS guys....which is why we are PFS guys in the first place, right? I haven't noticed ANY negatives from this at all. None. As a matter of fact, anything that I have on my lists don't give me any negative effects at all either, otherwise they wouldn't be on the list in the first place. My list is based on my own experiences with usage over the past many years of experimentation. Obviously everyone's different when it comes to their constitutions and their genetic predispositions so care should be taken any time your start something new. But seeing as it's not an extract and it's in it's natural form, the chances of anything grave coming out of taking Spirulina are ridiculously low. So low in fact, I wouldn't bother worrying about it.

Thanks for the studies though, and welcome to the site.

OK, cool, thanks. Have you noticed that when you recovered you weren't as sensitive to natural 5ARI compounds? For example, I remember taking saw palmetto way back long before I even touched fin and it didn't give me any sides (that I noticed), but after taking fin even the slightest things that could be estrogenic or 5ARI's make me extremely sensitive, although recently over the last 6 months I have made major improvements and it seems I can tolerate things way better now (like pre-fin) compared to when coming off fin.

[xxLUK]

Great question tubzy, i've always wondered that also

[Cdsnuts]

CDSNuts, what is your opinion on enemas/coffee enemas, and if you have done them, what benefits did you get from them? Would you reccomend them during a fast or a cleanse of some sort?

Please keep the thread OT

[xxLUK]

Please keep the thread OT

Sorry CD, I thought it was applicable

[Grape Ape]

CDN, have you ever seen any bloodwork to back up this cycling method?

[jonson]

Does anyone increased his T level to the 700 area?
I am now at 400 with vit d3 and wonder if i could increase it to 700.
With herbs cycling and workout ofcourse.

[Grape Ape]

Very much possible IMO. Another route would be clomid. I know this is about natural test boosting, but Im not apposed to proper use of a serm, nor can I ignore the ammounts of positive research.

[jonson]

Well clomid could make things worse.
Natural route is better , but don't know if the results could be permanent if i atop the herbs.

[Maxout777]

Well clomid could make things worse.
Natural route is better , but don't know if the results could be permanent if i atop the herbs.
FWIW, I was at 755 ng/dL my last blood test about three months ago. That was about 7-8 months on the rotation.

For reference, I was at 409 ng/dL before I started. This was also with proper rest, lifting, HIIT, and diet. I think all these things combined give these results. You'll be hard pressed to see that good of results off just herbs themselves, IMO.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[jonson]

You also felt better with this value?
Do you know what dose should i take with each herb? Or which 7 herbs i should start with?

[GroverM]

Thanks for posting the list of herbs/supplements. I'm going to research them all now.

[basementdweller]

New guy here... Was just wondering if Cd or anyone else on here can recall getting any side effects from any of these herbs?

I ask because Maca works amazing for me, but it made my anxiety worse too. Ashwagandha relaxes me but keeps me up all night if I take it at bedtime... Stuff like that

Also, any thoughts on zinc? I'm surprised how well even a small dose works for me, but it only works for 3 days then I have to cycle it.

[Cdsnuts]

New guy here... Was just wondering if Cd or anyone else on here can recall getting any side effects from any of these herbs?

I ask because Maca works amazing for me, but it made my anxiety worse too. Ashwagandha relaxes me but keeps me up all night if I take it at bedtime... Stuff like that

Also, any thoughts on zinc? I'm surprised how well even a small dose works for me, but it only works for 3 days then I have to cycle it.When you say Maca Works amazing for you, what does that mean? And if If ashwagandha keeps you up at night, don't take it at night.

I'm not really sure what you're asking here? Are you looking for the negatives of all of the recommended herbs?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[basementdweller]

When you say Maca Works amazing for you, what does that mean? And if If ashwagandha keeps you up at night, don't take it at night.

I'm not really sure what you're asking here? Are you looking for the negatives of all of the recommended herbs?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Maca gave me a massive boost of energy and libido, but I also experienced increased anxiety and shortness of breath. I'll have to experiment with the dosage on that one.


My question is, out of your list, are there any specific herbs that you have you experienced significant side effects with?


I'm also curious about DAA. Have you tried it?

[Lookingforhelp]

I had bad effects from saw palmetto.

I have bought a few of the herbs mentioned from superman herbs. I attempted to use the Tongkat but had major sleep issues on it as well as something I have never experienced before, chronic hives. Literally would break out in hives all over my body and would have to take cold showers to go away.

I know it was the Tongkat because I tried to introduce it 3 times now with exactly the same symptoms.

What are peoples favourite herb after Tongkat?

Being a saw palmetto user I believe the mechanism is slightly different. I have noted others with low estrogen symptoms after AI etc. I have raised SHBG but very low E2 and I cant seem to find anyone else in the situation. Normally SHBG is raised through high estrogen. I have suffered with low e2 symptoms for years now. HCG helped in many ways but did not fix me entirely. It gave me back pre cum and normal looking loads. Better flacid hang but no return of spontaneous erections. It did help libido too.

I wanted to go the natural route. I cycled off everything and my own production came back with very healthy testosterone levels (675 ng/dl) but higher SHBG and lower E2.
I am in a bad way since coming off HCG. Feel completely shut down even though my testosterone levels are fairly high. My SHBG is 60 nmol/l however.

I read that one of Tongkats methods through raising T is lowering E2 hence probably why I felt terrible on it.

I am desperate to get back my health and have changed everything about my diet and lifestyle for a long time. I appreciate it is all mentioned in the Protocol but I do not wish to take any supplements that can lower estrogens for me even more. A lot of the prohormones are anti E.

Does anyone have any suggestions for supps that are not so aggressive at lowering aromatase?

[biatch]

I had bad effects from saw palmetto.

I have bought a few of the herbs mentioned from superman herbs. I attempted to use the Tongkat but had major sleep issues on it as well as something I have never experienced before, chronic hives. Literally would break out in hives all over my body and would have to take cold showers to go away.

I know it was the Tongkat because I tried to introduce it 3 times now with exactly the same symptoms.

What are peoples favourite herb after Tongkat?

Being a saw palmetto user I believe the mechanism is slightly different. I have noted others with low estrogen symptoms after AI etc. I have raised SHBG but very low E2 and I cant seem to find anyone else in the situation. Normally SHBG is raised through high estrogen. I have suffered with low e2 symptoms for years now. HCG helped in many ways but did not fix me entirely. It gave me back pre cum and normal looking loads. Better flacid hang but no return of spontaneous erections. It did help libido too.

I wanted to go the natural route. I cycled off everything and my own production came back with very healthy testosterone levels (675 ng/dl) but higher SHBG and lower E2.
I am in a bad way since coming off HCG. Feel completely shut down even though my testosterone levels are fairly high. My SHBG is 60 nmol/l however.

I read that one of Tongkats methods through raising T is lowering E2 hence probably why I felt terrible on it.

I am desperate to get back my health and have changed everything about my diet and lifestyle for a long time. I appreciate it is all mentioned in the Protocol but I do not wish to take any supplements that can lower estrogens for me even more. A lot of the prohormones are anti E.

Does anyone have any suggestions for supps that are not so aggressive at lowering aromatase?

Use herbs rotation. I mean the herbs which do not have anti estrogens action.

[Lookingforhelp]

Use herbs rotation. I mean the herbs which do not have anti estrogens action.

Would you mind telling which ones in particular are anti E?

Is tribulus anti E?

[biatch]

Would you mind telling which ones in particular are anti E?

Is tribulus anti E?

from what i remember the most anti E is tongkat ali, tribulus should not be.
I had the same issue as you 5 months ago. I used herbs avoiding the most anti E and my testo rised up so my E also did.
I also drunk some beers here and there to make estro to rise a bit more, but this is what I did, feeling myself to do it...so do not take it has a medical rule, since I am not.
Anyway make a research on CDNuts website and read what each herbs do.

[Cdsnuts]

Would you mind telling which ones in particular are anti E?

Is tribulus anti E?

Your best bet is to do some research on each one if this is the angle that you're going to take. You're always good to go with any of the adaptogens...Rhodiola, Eluthero, Cistanche, He Shou Wu, etc.

[Cdsnuts]

I had bad effects from saw palmetto.

I have bought a few of the herbs mentioned from superman herbs. I attempted to use the Tongkat but had major sleep issues on it as well as something I have never experienced before, chronic hives. Literally would break out in hives all over my body and would have to take cold showers to go away.

I know it was the Tongkat because I tried to introduce it 3 times now with exactly the same symptoms.

What are peoples favourite herb after Tongkat?

Being a saw palmetto user I believe the mechanism is slightly different. I have noted others with low estrogen symptoms after AI etc. I have raised SHBG but very low E2 and I cant seem to find anyone else in the situation. Normally SHBG is raised through high estrogen. I have suffered with low e2 symptoms for years now. HCG helped in many ways but did not fix me entirely. It gave me back pre cum and normal looking loads. Better flacid hang but no return of spontaneous erections. It did help libido too.

I wanted to go the natural route. I cycled off everything and my own production came back with very healthy testosterone levels (675 ng/dl) but higher SHBG and lower E2.
I am in a bad way since coming off HCG. Feel completely shut down even though my testosterone levels are fairly high. My SHBG is 60 nmol/l however.

I read that one of Tongkats methods through raising T is lowering E2 hence probably why I felt terrible on it.

I am desperate to get back my health and have changed everything about my diet and lifestyle for a long time. I appreciate it is all mentioned in the Protocol but I do not wish to take any supplements that can lower estrogens for me even more. A lot of the prohormones are anti E.

Does anyone have any suggestions for supps that are not so aggressive at lowering aromatase?

So....first things first. Have you cleansed? Any kind...water fast, juice feast? Have you attempted to do some house cleaning and start your herb rotation on a clean slate, or did you just do some googling, buy some herbs and start taking them?

Aside from all of the other reasons mentioned for doing a cleanse before starting this protocol, one of the most very important reasons are, the way the herbs effect you pre-cleanse are not going to be the way they effect you post cleanse. You maybe be getting hives from what the tongkat is doing to or with other things that are in your system right now. Only one way to find out.....cleanse. You're doing yourself a huge disservice by skipping this part, as dreaded as it may be for you.

If you're "desperate" to get your health back, you need to step back and re-evaluate the way you're approaching this. EVERYTHING in the protocol is there for a specific reason.

Concerning prohormones, when the time comes, just run DHEA 4 without the DHT. That'll get your estro up.

With herb rotation, you could add in phytoestrogenic herbs along with the tongkat to buffer the effects of low estrogen. I'm not too familiar with this because I always had high estro during my PFS struggle.

[Maxout777]

I had bad effects from saw palmetto.

I have bought a few of the herbs mentioned from superman herbs. I attempted to use the Tongkat but had major sleep issues on it as well as something I have never experienced before, chronic hives. Literally would break out in hives all over my body and would have to take cold showers to go away.

I know it was the Tongkat because I tried to introduce it 3 times now with exactly the same symptoms.

What are peoples favourite herb after Tongkat?

Being a saw palmetto user I believe the mechanism is slightly different. I have noted others with low estrogen symptoms after AI etc. I have raised SHBG but very low E2 and I cant seem to find anyone else in the situation. Normally SHBG is raised through high estrogen. I have suffered with low e2 symptoms for years now. HCG helped in many ways but did not fix me entirely. It gave me back pre cum and normal looking loads. Better flacid hang but no return of spontaneous erections. It did help libido too.

I wanted to go the natural route. I cycled off everything and my own production came back with very healthy testosterone levels (675 ng/dl) but higher SHBG and lower E2.
I am in a bad way since coming off HCG. Feel completely shut down even though my testosterone levels are fairly high. My SHBG is 60 nmol/l however.

I read that one of Tongkats methods through raising T is lowering E2 hence probably why I felt terrible on it.

I am desperate to get back my health and have changed everything about my diet and lifestyle for a long time. I appreciate it is all mentioned in the Protocol but I do not wish to take any supplements that can lower estrogens for me even more. A lot of the prohormones are anti E.

Does anyone have any suggestions for supps that are not so aggressive at lowering aromatase?

I was also a saw palmetto user, for what it's worth. I used the prohormones, and herbs during my recovery and my E was low at times. If you're looking for a way to use the prohormones without tanking your E, I highly suggest that you try a low dose of 4 Andro with the R-Andro. This will keep you from having any low estrogen issues, as it is a test base. Of course, don't start there. I would do what CD is suggesting first - cleanse, herbs, workout, lifestyle => then use these PHs once you've got a decent base.

[Lookingforhelp]

So....first things first. Have you cleansed? Any kind...water fast, juice feast? Have you attempted to do some house cleaning and start your herb rotation on a clean slate, or did you just do some googling, but some herbs and start taking them?

Aside from all of the other reasons mentioned for doing a cleanse before starting this protocol, one of the most very important reasons are, the way the herbs effect you pre-cleanse are not going to be the way they effect you post cleanse. You maybe be getting hives from what the tongkat is doing to or with other things that are in your system right now. Only one way to find out.....cleanse. You're doing yourself a huge disservice by skipping this part, as dreaded as it may be for you.

If you're "desperate" to get your health back, you need to step back and re-evaluate the way you're approaching this. EVERYTHING in the protocol is there for a specific reason.

Concerning prohormones, when the time comes, just run DHEA 4 without the DHT. That'll get your estro up.

With herb rotation, you could add in phytoestrogenic herbs along with the tongkat to buffer the effects of low estrogen. I'm not too familiar with this because I always had high estro during my PFS struggle.


Thanks for taking the time to reply.


Yes I have done a couple of cleanses over the last 3 years. I have not fasted for longer than a week, however, the last three years I have been gluten free, alcohol free, processed foods free. I try to be organic as possible in terms of meats and veg however it is very costly and I have to budget. Saying that I eat generally 75% organic foods most of the time.

My case is fairly familiar to most finasteride users in that my symptoms really exploded upon becoming very ill with either food poisoning or an insect bite whilst on holiday in Mexico. Its ironic because I went on the holiday as a detox to write myself of all the issues. I was experiencing a bit of ED. Things got 100 times worse once I got ill. I can only explain it as the worst stomach flu in the world.

I have had numerous testing for parasites and Lyme all coming back negative. The NHS system is rather crap! Upon returning from Mexico, I was hospitalised for a week. I woke up with chest pain and numbness in my arms, went to A&E and they confirmed a heart attack. I was 24. Upon testing, they discovered I had inflammation of the heart. Then I developed prostatitis, then gut inflammation. Now recently I have experienced Uveitis which is inflammation of the eyes.

I have been tested for numerous autoimmune issues as they are common in my family. They found slightly raised markers for autoimmune issues with my liver. Seeing a Dr next week about it. May explain my high SHBG?

Anyway, my point being is I have tried so desperately to fix this and I live such a healthy lifestyle other than I do not over do it on the exercise point, not out of laziness, it just makes me crash if I over do it. I basically give my body the best I can. My partner and I own a juice bar so I have 2 or 3 juices a day normally. Sometimes I do intermittent juice fasting as it is meant to be good for you. I also bought a home infared sauna which I use 2 times a week.

I think a lot of my issues come down to my body fighting something which is halting my recovery! My hips click and crack, my sleep is usually not great, libido is down. The reason I think I have the opposite issues to most propecia users is that high estrogen does not seem to be a problem for me, it's in fact low estrogen that is. HCG whilst on it got rid of the hip issues once it was raised. It also returned my flaccid hang to a much normal state. I cannot seem to find much on the internet regarding high SHBG and low e2. Most supps that lower SHBG is by inhibiting aromatse which I do not want to do!

Another point to add, I had raised prolactin when first getting ill, they thought I had a pituitary tumor. Prolactin was not that high but MRI confirmed no tumor was found. I took cabergoline and it restored my spontaneous erections. Not even TRT did this, although TRT did seem to help erection strength.

Summarising



It took me about a year to realise the medical world could not do anything for me, hence why I have been living so clean for so long.

My issues seem to be with low e2 and low dopamine. I have read studies on Tribulus and the androgen receptor sensitivity in the brain, maybe this could improve the dopamine issues?

I am going to plan to do a longer fast however with my body in the fragile state its in I wonder if a juice feast would be a better idea?

Sorry for such an in depth story. Trying to paint a clear picture for you!

Thanks again

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.


Yes I have done a couple of cleanses over the last 3 years. I have not fasted for longer than a week, however, the last three years I have been gluten free, alcohol free, processed foods free. I try to be organic as possible in terms of meats and veg however it is very costly and I have to budget. Saying that I eat generally 75% organic foods most of the time.

My case is fairly familiar to most finasteride users in that my symptoms really exploded upon becoming very ill with either food poisoning or an insect bite whilst on holiday in Mexico. Its ironic because I went on the holiday as a detox to write myself of all the issues. I was experiencing a bit of ED. Things got 100 times worse once I got ill. I can only explain it as the worst stomach flu in the world.

I have had numerous testing for parasites and Lyme all coming back negative. The NHS system is rather crap! Upon returning from Mexico, I was hospitalised for a week. I woke up with chest pain and numbness in my arms, went to A&E and they confirmed a heart attack. I was 24. Upon testing, they discovered I had inflammation of the heart. Then I developed prostatitis, then gut inflammation. Now recently I have experienced Uveitis which is inflammation of the eyes.

I have been tested for numerous autoimmune issues as they are common in my family. They found slightly raised markers for autoimmune issues with my liver. Seeing a Dr next week about it. May explain my high SHBG?

Anyway, my point being is I have tried so desperately to fix this and I live such a healthy lifestyle other than I do not over do it on the exercise point, not out of laziness, it just makes me crash if I over do it. I basically give my body the best I can. My partner and I own a juice bar so I have 2 or 3 juices a day normally. Sometimes I do intermittent juice fasting as it is meant to be good for you. I also bought a home infared sauna which I use 2 times a week.

I think a lot of my issues come down to my body fighting something which is halting my recovery! My hips click and crack, my sleep is usually not great, libido is down. The reason I think I have the opposite issues to most propecia users is that high estrogen does not seem to be a problem for me, it's in fact low estrogen that is. HCG whilst on it got rid of the hip issues once it was raised. It also returned my flaccid hang to a much normal state. I cannot seem to find much on the internet regarding high SHBG and low e2. Most supps that lower SHBG is by inhibiting aromatse which I do not want to do!

Another point to add, I had raised prolactin when first getting ill, they thought I had a pituitary tumor. Prolactin was not that high but MRI confirmed no tumor was found. I took cabergoline and it restored my spontaneous erections. Not even TRT did this, although TRT did seem to help erection strength.

Summarising



It took me about a year to realise the medical world could not do anything for me, hence why I have been living so clean for so long.

My issues seem to be with low e2 and low dopamine. I have read studies on Tribulus and the androgen receptor sensitivity in the brain, maybe this could improve the dopamine issues?

I am going to plan to do a longer fast however with my body in the fragile state its in I wonder if a juice feast would be a better idea?

Sorry for such an in depth story. Trying to paint a clear picture for you!

Thanks again

Not a problem. The more info, the better.

Seeing as you're having autoimmune type issues, inflammation is your enemy. You would benefit from an extended juice feast or water fast. If it were me, i would do a month long juice feast. Making sure you're getting at least 2,000 calories/day from just pure juice along with a half gallon of water per day as well. This will quench any inflammation you are having along with getting a nice, deep cleanse in.

In regards to your dopamine, I would heavily supplement with Mucuna Organic Extract - L-DOPA - Lost Empire Herbs (https://jt231.isrefer.com/go/mucuna/cdsnuts/) (Mucuna Puriens) along with any of the adaptogens I had mentioned earlier, especially Rhodiola, again you can get these both from Lost Empire.

You're in a great position as you own your own juice bar!!

[Sweden]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.


Yes I have done a couple of cleanses over the last 3 years. I have not fasted for longer than a week, however, the last three years I have been gluten free, alcohol free, processed foods free. I try to be organic as possible in terms of meats and veg however it is very costly and I have to budget. Saying that I eat generally 75% organic foods most of the time.

My case is fairly familiar to most finasteride users in that my symptoms really exploded upon becoming very ill with either food poisoning or an insect bite whilst on holiday in Mexico. Its ironic because I went on the holiday as a detox to write myself of all the issues. I was experiencing a bit of ED. Things got 100 times worse once I got ill. I can only explain it as the worst stomach flu in the world.

I have had numerous testing for parasites and Lyme all coming back negative. The NHS system is rather crap! Upon returning from Mexico, I was hospitalised for a week. I woke up with chest pain and numbness in my arms, went to A&E and they confirmed a heart attack. I was 24. Upon testing, they discovered I had inflammation of the heart. Then I developed prostatitis, then gut inflammation. Now recently I have experienced Uveitis which is inflammation of the eyes.

I have been tested for numerous autoimmune issues as they are common in my family. They found slightly raised markers for autoimmune issues with my liver. Seeing a Dr next week about it. May explain my high SHBG?

Anyway, my point being is I have tried so desperately to fix this and I live such a healthy lifestyle other than I do not over do it on the exercise point, not out of laziness, it just makes me crash if I over do it. I basically give my body the best I can. My partner and I own a juice bar so I have 2 or 3 juices a day normally. Sometimes I do intermittent juice fasting as it is meant to be good for you. I also bought a home infared sauna which I use 2 times a week.

I think a lot of my issues come down to my body fighting something which is halting my recovery! My hips click and crack, my sleep is usually not great, libido is down. The reason I think I have the opposite issues to most propecia users is that high estrogen does not seem to be a problem for me, it's in fact low estrogen that is. HCG whilst on it got rid of the hip issues once it was raised. It also returned my flaccid hang to a much normal state. I cannot seem to find much on the internet regarding high SHBG and low e2. Most supps that lower SHBG is by inhibiting aromatse which I do not want to do!

Another point to add, I had raised prolactin when first getting ill, they thought I had a pituitary tumor. Prolactin was not that high but MRI confirmed no tumor was found. I took cabergoline and it restored my spontaneous erections. Not even TRT did this, although TRT did seem to help erection strength.

Summarising



It took me about a year to realise the medical world could not do anything for me, hence why I have been living so clean for so long.

My issues seem to be with low e2 and low dopamine. I have read studies on Tribulus and the androgen receptor sensitivity in the brain, maybe this could improve the dopamine issues?

I am going to plan to do a longer fast however with my body in the fragile state its in I wonder if a juice feast would be a better idea?

Sorry for such an in depth story. Trying to paint a clear picture for you!

Thanks again

Just wanted to share my experience with broth fasting. When I had been unbelievably ill for 5 years (spent 5 years in bed pretty much and did yoga but that is all I did) I decided to do a broth fast. It was the best thing I have ever done. It was the turn around for me. I had tried everything up to that point but had not improved really. Anyway, did a two week broth fast and also drank ginger tea. After that fast it was as if my body started to recover. I am still not fully recovered but it would not surprise me if I would have died at some point if I had not done that broth fast.

So since you live in the UK (I lived in London for 12 years back then) you have access to butchers and pigs feet. I made my broths EXTREMELY gelatinous. I put 5 pigs feet in a medium sized slow cooker and let them simmer on low for 48 hours. After that I strain through a cheese clot. Put the stuff in the fridge so the fat accumulates on top if you want to remove it. I drank about 1/2 liter per day but extremely thick and gelatinous. Ginger tea must be made with real ginger root.

I have since made broth regularly. I never get it tasty but I drink it anyway. Chicken feet taste better but you will get the most gelatin from cows or pigs feet.

Downside: time consuming.

Writing this makes me want to do another broth fast. Or broth and green juice liquid diet.

PS. Supplementing gelatin does not have this effect at all.

[Queens1984]

Hey cdsnuts. I’m following Your Website. The only question is about Boron. Is that okay 2 add 2 my morning supplements? Thankyou

[Cdsnuts]

Hey cdsnuts. I’m following Your Website. The only question is about Boron. Is that okay 2 add 2 my morning supplements? Thankyou

Yes.

[Cooper]

Well that's certainly not "since my last suggestion." which was a year ago.

There could be a multitude of reasons of why you're not getting the results that I speak of. Again, 20+ different herbs is going to give you waaaaay better results than seven, but you should still be getting good results with 7. Have you tried playing with the dosage? Adding caffeine? Taking them on an empty stomach? Is your training and diet dialed in? You sleeping good? Etc. You're getting good results, just not the results that I'm getting with the stash I have....that's understandable.

Also, it's been almost two and a half months you've been doing it. Surely you could have picked up a few more herbs to add to your rotation. Again, the ultimate suggestion is to cycle as many as you can. 7 is simply a starting point to give you AT LEAST a week between taking each one. The longer you go between doses, the stronger the hit.

So we should use these supplements for a week and stop and use for a week again and repeat? Can you give an essential 7 for starting sir?
Also we should do these supplements when we aren't using R-Andro right?

Also what do you think if a person responds badly to androgens? Like many of pfs sufferers do due to hypersensitive AR. AR downregulate themselves when we increase androgens. Also i have responded badly to androgenic supplements before, it made me feel good on them but then i felt worse, lowered my baseline. So, what you can say about this? Not every pfs victim responds good to increasing androgens. Many people tried your regime with proper fasting and still responded badly to androgens. I want to hear your thoughts, thanks.

Thanks.

[Cdsnuts]

So we should use these supplements for a week and stop and use for a week again and repeat? Can you give an essential 7 for starting sir?
Also we should do these supplements when we aren't using R-Andro right?

Also what do you think if a person responds badly to androgens? Like many of pfs sufferers do due to hypersensitive AR. AR downregulate themselves when we increase androgens. Also i have responded badly to androgenic supplements before, it made me feel good on them but then i felt worse, lowered my baseline. So, what you can say about this? Not every pfs victim responds good to increasing androgens. Many people tried your regime with proper fasting and still responded badly to androgens. I want to hear your thoughts, thanks.

Thanks.

Cooper:

I'm going to give you one more shot. You keep asking the same question over and over again when it is very clear if you have READ THE WEBSITE.

Stop spamming every single thread with this ridiculousness. READ! No one is going to spoon feed you here.

In regards to my thoughts....they have been spewed out here, on this forum, over and over again, for ANYONE to come here and read.

[James897]

Concerning prohormones, when the time comes, just run DHEA 4 without the DHT. That'll get your estro up.




Not sure about that. I took 4 andro 250mg/day for a month and my bloods didn't budge. Test and estrogen were EXACTLY the same as when i started

[delsolrob]

Not sure about that. I took 4 andro 250mg/day for a month and my bloods didn't budge. Test and estrogen were EXACTLY the same as when i started

That's interesting! what brand? not to derail, but your one experience doesn't fall in line with science or general anecdotal feedback. CD is right in his assesment.

That said, people do respond differently...there were even some people who didn't get any gains on superdrol. But, that doesn't mean it doesn't work for the significant majority of the population

[Cdsnuts]

Not sure about that. I took 4 andro 250mg/day for a month and my bloods didn't budge. Test and estrogen were EXACTLY the same as when i started

You don't have to be, I am.

I know that may sound cocky, but coming from someone who has 2 posts here to say that to someone who has been working with these guys for almost a decade...well...you know where this is going.

But what Rob said is correct. Not only that, but when I talk about these things, I'm talking about them from the perspective that everyone is doing EVERYTHING that is recommended.

From alot of these questions I'm getting from this new wave of guys it is very clear that many of you have NOT read EVERYTHING on the site. Even the stickies, which is the FIRST thing that is recommended for the new comers.

Unfortunately this thread has been derailed and i'm probably going to lock it so that it is not ruined for the men that come in after you guys.

[James897]

That's interesting! what brand? not to derail, but your one experience doesn't fall in line with science or general anecdotal feedback. CD is right in his assesment.

That said, people do respond differently...there were even some people who didn't get any gains on superdrol. But, that doesn't mean it doesn't work for the significant majority of the population

I don't know, it was surprising since I felt some initial effects on it. I was using an old 4-andro product from IML, then switched to Super 4-elite from Olympus.