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h2s
11-28-2012, 11:44 AM
HCG - Unraveled
By Eric M. Potratz (©Eric Potratz, All Rights Reserved, Reprinted with Permission)


Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.




Post-Cycle-Therapy is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great Post Cycle Therapy protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.


hCG unraveled -

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to increase testosterone levels. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.


When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) - All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during Post-Cycle-Therapy. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.



First, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960's) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function - but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won't regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger natural testosterone production - and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosterone production is a topic for another article)



To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!



206



The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20



In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn't use it on cycle.



Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it's important to discontinue the hCG before you start Post-Cycle-Therapy so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body's own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)


Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation.

If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)


Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.



Recap -

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.


In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.



References -

1. Glycoprotein hormones: structure and function.

Pierce JG, Parsons TF 1981
Annu Rev Biochem 50:466-495

2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

Andrea D. Coviello, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.

3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.

Mendis-Handagama SM
Histol Histopathol 12:869-882 (1997)

4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats

SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.
Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.

5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.

Keeney DS, et al.
Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906-2915.

6.The Effects of Gonadotropin Suppression and Selective Replacement on Insulin-Like Factor 3 Secretion in Normal Adult Men

Katrine Bay, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Mar 2006; 91: 1108 - 1111.

7. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human

chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin
Dev Kumar Menon, et al.
FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003

8. Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic godadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic/anabolic steroids in power athletes

Hannu et al.
J. Steroid Biochem. Vol. 25, No. 1 pp. 109-112 (1986)

9. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate.

Schulte-Beerbuhl M, et al 1980
Fertil Steril 33:201-203

10. Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.

Matsumoto AM, et al 1990
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282-287

11. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on plasma steroid levels in young and old men.

Longcope C et al
Steroids 21:583-590 (1973)

12. Regulation of peptide hormone receptors and gonadal steroidogenesis.

Catt KJ, et al
Rec Prog Horm Res 1980; 36:557-622

13. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on the endocrine function of Papio testes

GV Katsiia, et al
Probl Endokrinol (Mosk), Sep 1984; 30(5): 68-71.

14. Reproductive function in young fathers and grandfathers.

Nieschlag E, et al.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 55:676-681 (1982)

15. The aging Leydig cell III Gonadotropin stimulation in men.

Nankin HR, et al. 1981
J Androl 2:181-189

16. Reproductive hormones in aging men. I. Measurement of sex steroids, basal luteinizing hormone, and Leydig cell response to human chorionic gonadotropin.

Harman SM, et al. 1980
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 51:35-40

17. Prolonged biphasic response of plasma testosterone to single intramuscular injections of human chorionic gonadotropin.

Padron RS, et al. 1980
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 50:1100-1104

18. Gonadotrophins and plasma testosterone in senescence. In: James VHT, Serio M, Martini L, eds. The endocrine function of the human testis.

Mazzi C, et al. 1974
New York: Academic Press, Inc.; 51-66

19. Androgen biosynthesis in Leydig cells after testicular desensitization by luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone and human chorionic gonadotropin.

Dufau ML, et al.
Endocrinology 105 1314-1321 (1979)

20. Insulin-Like Factor 3 Serum Levels in 135 Normal Men and 85 Men with Testicular Disorders: Relationship to the Luteinizing Hormone-Testosterone Axis

K. Bay, S. et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Jun 2005; 90: 3410 - 3418.

21. Stimulation of sperm production by human chorionic gonadotropin after prolonged gonadotropin suppression in normal men.

Matsumoto AM, et al 1985
J Androl 6:137-143

22. Human chorionic gonadotropin and testicular function: stimulation of testosterone, testosterone precursors, and sperm production despite high estradiol levels.

Matsumoto AM, et al. 1983
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 56:720-728

therealest77
11-28-2012, 12:44 PM
The innovator...brilliant mind this guy.

longBallLima
11-28-2012, 12:45 PM
If starting late, after 1 "kickstarting" dose, resume with normal dosing protocol?

h2s
11-28-2012, 02:06 PM
If starting late, after 1 "kickstarting" dose, resume with normal dosing protocol?

That is my understanding. I never asked, as I just start it from the begining.

longBallLima
11-28-2012, 05:51 PM
That is my understanding. I never asked, as I just start it from the begining.

Got it. thanks! I gotta make a decision since my hcg is taking a good while

Bucks
11-28-2012, 07:44 PM
I shot 500 twice a week for the last 4 weeks of a 12 week cycle . Worked good for me.

Jelisej
12-25-2012, 05:48 AM
My understanding is that HCG should be used from day one, for 3 reasons- 1. It is better to prevent any testicular shrinkage which most likely will happen at second week (although it will not be visible)
2. HCG should keep testosterone up (for example after first injection of test e natural production will be reduced/stopped and in first week or two, before test e kicks in there will be drop on tt levels, using HCG will prevent this, other option is using some other gear for "kick start" cycle- but even in that case HCG must be used as testicular shrinkage will be fast as well
3. HCG has positive effect on other hormones as well, and also it stimulates thyroid- and if thyroid works faster than higher testosterone levels can be reached

HCG should not be used as part of PCT, I've seen people using clomid and HCG together but this is big mistake and HPTA will not start working until HCG clears off.

Infamy
12-25-2012, 02:09 PM
Jel, I have to agree with everything you say. You are totally on the money.

pman42
12-25-2012, 06:27 PM
So some sources state HCG only necessary for cycles over, say, 6-8 weeks. thoughts on this?

Jelisej
12-26-2012, 06:07 AM
So some sources state HCG only necessary for cycles over, say, 6-8 weeks. thoughts on this?

Well, there are options where you dont need HCG, but I would not consider them as a "cycle"- for example when trying to "top up" your endocrine system- for example when adding DHEA or pregnenolone in which case there will not be supression until it starts "overfilling"- theoretically with correct dosage it can be taken indefinitely (though its hard to find right dosage).

From anecdotal evidences- turinabol has a minimal effect on other hormones so HCG is not necessary for most of turinabol cycles (turinabol has other sides though).

For typicall cycles IMO HCG should be used- for real gains high hormonal levels should be reached, and in that case suppression and testicular shrinkage will happen. Personaly- I dont see point in cycles where people stop at point when "things just started to happen", if you know what I mean- anyone who wants to do cycle has to be fully commited to it, with "gameplan" ready.

And also must be said that testicular atrophy cant be determined by size of testicles as Leydig cell represent only small % of testicles size- so person can be fully atrophied without changes in size of testicles and it can happen in under two weeks. And testicular atrophy is the longest part of recovery in PCT- so its much better to prevent it.

h2s
12-26-2012, 10:02 AM
The article was copied as written by Eric, so that is why the wait before application is present.

I compeltely agree as well, however. I use my hcg from the begining of a cycle, and I use it with every cycle.

JM1000
03-26-2013, 10:40 AM
Is there any info on the effects of hcg on-cycle, on fertility ?

pman42
04-17-2013, 09:41 PM
In Scally's Power PCT protocol, it appears that HCG and clomid/tamox are all used concurrently. thoughts on this? seems to go against what eric is saying-- in my reading of his article one would want to discontinue HCG at least a few half-lives before starting any SERM

h2s
04-17-2013, 09:44 PM
Is there any info on the effects of hcg on-cycle, on fertility ?

Not really. Studies generally are not done regarding effects while someone is using steroids. In theory, it should help with fertility.


In Scally's Power PCT protocol, it appears that HCG and clomid/tamox are all used concurrently. thoughts on this? seems to go against what eric is saying-- in my reading of his article one would want to discontinue HCG at least a few half-lives before starting any SERM


Two different minds, two different approaches. However one thing you must consider is they are both trying to accomplish different things. Eric is demonstrating how to use HCG to prevent a difficult PCT and make the recovery transition easier. Scally is demonstrating how to use hCG to recover testosterone levels in an already hypogonadal patient (was on cycle and had not used on cycle therapy).

O.N.
04-18-2013, 06:42 PM
I agree with most of what Eric has said but disagree with a couple of points.

1. Eric has said to start HCG 14 days after your first injection, we know that LH can reach baseline within 3 days of your first injection of testosterone from this point on the testes are either not receiving any or hardly any LH and HCG would preserve their function.

2. Eric also stated to drop HCG 14 days before you finish your cycle again i dont think this is right if you take as little as 500mg test e per week this will stay active in your system for around 30 days, dropping below 3 active mg's per day around day 25 due to its ester length, that being the case you would want to run your HCG until all steroids have cleared your system even just 14-21 days post your last injection will be more beneficial, it's like running a race and then 10 yards from the line start walking.

HCG is fine to use when steroids are clearing the system hell many people use it only in post cycle which is far worse than on cycle use.

250IU 2x per week once compounded in your system is actually the perfect dose it is equal to 94% of a normal males LH production for a week.

My recommendation which has been used by many guys with great success is to run HCG from day 1 @ 250IU 2x per week continue this dose for 2-3 weeks post your last injection for enanthate esters, if using propionate HCG can be used for 7-10 days past your last injection.

7 Days after the last injection the use of res100/tococaps can begin and 6-8 weeks post your last injection get a blood test done to confirm if you have recovered.

longBallLima
04-18-2013, 11:40 PM
I agree with most of what Eric has said but disagree with a couple of points.

1. Eric has said to start HCG 14 days after your first injection, we know that LH can reach baseline within 3 days of your first injection of testosterone from this point on the testes are either not receiving any or hardly any LH and HCG would preserve their function.

2. Eric also stated to drop HCG 14 days before you finish your cycle again i dont think this is right if you take as little as 500mg test e per week this will stay active in your system for around 30 days, dropping below 3 active mg's per day around day 25 due to its ester length, that being the case you would want to run your HCG until all steroids have cleared your system even just 14-21 days post your last injection will be more beneficial, it's like running a race and then 10 yards from the line start walking.

HCG is fine to use when steroids are clearing the system hell many people use it only in post cycle which is far worse than on cycle use.

250IU 2x per week once compounded in your system is actually the perfect dose it is equal to 94% of a normal males LH production for a week.

My recommendation which has been used by many guys with great success is to run HCG from day 1 @ 250IU 2x per week continue this dose for 2-3 weeks post your last injection for enanthate esters, if using propionate HCG can be used for 7-10 days past your last injection.

7 Days after the last injection the use of res100/tococaps can begin and 6-8 weeks post your last injection get a blood test done to confirm if you have recovered.

i read the article a while ago, and must say, lack the patience to do it again, but i thought he recommended to start couple of days within cycle and if you don't, to do a "pre-load" sorta dose, to kick start them testies. but like i said, i may be way off the mark remembering what i read.

hardestgainer
10-30-2013, 02:45 PM
I know I the article he mentioned this as an AAS cycle specifically. But I'm assuming there would still be benefits to running hcg if it was a ph cycle instead? I know their are differences between the two, but phs have the potential to have very similar effects to the testes, correct?

Jelisej
10-30-2013, 04:47 PM
I know I the article he mentioned this as an AAS cycle specifically. But I'm assuming there would still be benefits to running hcg if it was a ph cycle instead? I know their are differences between the two, but phs have the potential to have very similar effects to the testes, correct?

Yes, it can be run with PH's as well, for same reasons. One can go without if thinks that there will be not shutdown or reduce number of Leydig cells.

Swolesaurus
11-25-2013, 12:35 AM
I've read that hcg is supposed to be injected into the subcutaneous fat in your abdomen, but it seems like that is mostly for fat loss. Does the same apply for an AAS/PH cycle, or would you inject into the muscle tissue?

burlyman30
11-25-2013, 09:43 AM
I've read that hcg is supposed to be injected into the subcutaneous fat in your abdomen, but it seems like that is mostly for fat loss. Does the same apply for an AAS/PH cycle, or would you inject into the muscle tissue?

Hcg is not injected subcutaneously for the sake of fat loss. It is just not necessary to inject it intramuscularly, so a small needle+shallow depth=ease of injection.

AAS typically are injected intramuscularly, though a few of us have experimented with subcutaneous injection, and it works fine. PHs are not injected, they are taken orally or transdermally.

Freepressright
11-26-2013, 07:39 AM
I'd like to chime in with my own endorsement for hCG. I recently did a cycle of PN's Pro Gear for four weeks and eight weeks of 4ad/1-androsterone. Because methylsten shut me down hard the last time I ran UD, and realizing it's a harsh DS that can zero out your test, I decided some hCG was appropriate.

Testicles stayed full, sex drive was good throughout and recovery during PCT has been a breeze thus far. No loss of sex drive or erectile ability after this cycle is a huge plus. For a few days after the last UD run, I couldn't keep function downstairs to save my life. hCG use has been a night and day difference. I ran it from week 1 at 250IU 2x weekly and gave the necessary clearing time before PCT. I'll never go without it again.

JM1000
11-26-2013, 07:45 AM
FPR, did you log your run with pro-gear? Just wondering how your blood look pre and post cycle

Freepressright
11-26-2013, 09:05 AM
FPR, did you log your run with pro-gear? Just wondering how your blood look pre and post cycle

Ran Pro Gear for four weeks.

Did eight weeks of 1-andro and 4 ad.

I, unfortunately, can't afford blood work right now. Playing it by ear.

Swolesaurus
11-27-2013, 12:59 AM
Hcg is not injected subcutaneously for the sake of fat loss. It is just not necessary to inject it intramuscularly, so a small needle+shallow depth=ease of injection.

AAS typically are injected intramuscularly, though a few of us have experimented with subcutaneous injection, and it works fine. PHs are not injected, they are taken orally or transdermally.

I guess I should have been more clear with my question. I meant would you inject hcg differently (i.e. into the muscle tissue) while on an AAS or PH cycle? It sounds like the answer is no from what you're saying. So can you just inject hcg anywhere so long as it's not into a vein? I'm thinking of running a PH cycle of some sort in the next month or two. I just want to make sure I know how to use the hcg correctly.

longBallLima
11-27-2013, 02:24 AM
I guess I should have been more clear with my question. I meant would you inject hcg differently (i.e. into the muscle tissue) while on an AAS or PH cycle? It sounds like the answer is no from what you're saying. So can you just inject hcg anywhere so long as it's not into a vein? I'm thinking of running a PH cycle of some sort in the next month or two. I just want to make sure I know how to use the hcg correctly.

I've been doing it IM (intra muscular or into the muscle tissue if you will) on this last cycle. SubQ might absorb a tad slower and that seems to be the only difference if I understand things right. So I'd say you can either do a Sub Cutaneous injection (under the skin) or an IM and you should have the desired effects just the same. That is my understanding anyway

Freepressright
11-27-2013, 07:10 AM
I inject it SubQ into the belly. Just pinch a fold of skin at the stomach and stick yourself at a downward angle and push the plunger. Easy as pie. Just use an insulin pin for SubQ.

h2s
11-27-2013, 08:44 AM
Yeah I just go subQ, never had a reason to try IM. That said I dislike subq injections for than IM, SubQ seems to pinch alot more than IM for me.

Freepressright
11-27-2013, 09:22 AM
I can't feel an insulin pin on SubQ at all, whereas when I pin Vitneurin (B vitamin complex) I feel the stick slightly but the injection aches and stings.

h2s
11-27-2013, 11:31 AM
I can't feel an insulin pin on SubQ at all, whereas when I pin Vitneurin (B vitamin complex) I feel the stick slightly but the injection aches and stings.

Yeah its strange for me since most stay the same. I am religious about pins too, in that I only use brand name and fresh needles every time. For whatever reason though they get me.

Swolesaurus
11-27-2013, 11:16 PM
I inject it SubQ into the belly. Just pinch a fold of skin at the stomach and stick yourself at a downward angle and push the plunger. Easy as pie. Just use an insulin pin for SubQ.


Yeah I just go subQ, never had a reason to try IM. That said I dislike subq injections for than IM, SubQ seems to pinch alot more than IM for me.

Thanks for the input.

hossam
12-01-2013, 09:15 AM
so i have Pregnyl 5000 IU in 2 ampules: 1 is the powder and the water ampule

how to divide it into smaller doses like 500 IU per week?

booklifter
12-01-2013, 09:18 AM
so i have Pregnyl 5000 IU in 2 ampules: 1 is the powder and the water ampule

how to divide it into smaller doses like 500 IU per week?

http://www.swolesource.com/forum/human-growth-hormone-peptides/202-understanding-reconstitution-simple-guide.html

Swolesaurus
06-27-2014, 04:42 PM
How long will HCG last in the fridge after it's been reconstituted? I have some that's been in my fridge for a few months that I've been using for my current epi-andro/epi-tren cycle (I'm two weeks in). Would it have lost its efficacy or is it still good?

KAB111
06-27-2014, 04:48 PM
If I remember correctly, I think its good for 4-6 weeks properly stored in the fridge. Thats all the longer I have used 1 vial is 6 weeks.

Swolesaurus
06-27-2014, 05:52 PM
If I remember correctly, I think its good for 4-6 weeks properly stored in the fridge. Thats all the longer I have used 1 vial is 6 weeks.

Sounds like I need to order a new vial! Should I increase the dosage since my first couple injections were basically useless? I've been doing 250cc twice a week.

KAB111
06-27-2014, 08:31 PM
Sounds like I need to order a new vial! Should I increase the dosage since my first couple injections were basically useless? I've been doing 250cc twice a week.
Sorry man, I couldn't copy and paste the quote from the first post but there is a formula for a late start. Ive done that once and I was good to go.

tallstraw
10-22-2014, 12:31 AM
I had a friend come to me yesterday about his cycle. I asked him if the hcg ran out I gave him and where he got more....He fuckin didnt...so he's been about 5-6 months without hcg(LH)

So would it be right, based on this guide. "kick starting” dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

To tell him to do a 4-5k then wait 7 days, do another 4-5k shot wait 7 days then do another 4-5k shot. Then 7 days later continue with a normal maintenance dose of 100iu ED like suggested in the guide?

I don't wanna fuck him over more than he may have done himself. What do you guys think? Sound like a solid plan?

O.N.
10-22-2014, 07:07 PM
I had a friend come to me yesterday about his cycle. I asked him if the hcg ran out I gave him and where he got more....He fuckin didnt...so he's been about 5-6 months without hcg(LH)

So would it be right, based on this guide. "kick starting” dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

To tell him to do a 4-5k then wait 7 days, do another 4-5k shot wait 7 days then do another 4-5k shot. Then 7 days later continue with a normal maintenance dose of 100iu ED like suggested in the guide?

I don't wanna fuck him over more than he may have done himself. What do you guys think? Sound like a solid plan?

He needs to do a proper re-start now, outlined here.....however you should replace the Nolva/Clomid with something like Aromasin in a low dose.

http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/3033-power-pct-program.html (http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/3033-power-pct-program.html)

tallstraw
10-22-2014, 07:18 PM
I doubt he's gonna get off cycle if I tell him to. BUT!! I will pass this on to him. If he decides fuck you, I'm not getting off right now...should I just tell him to follow Eric Potratz protocol for resensitizing while on cycle?
Thanks for the help though!

WesleyInman
10-23-2014, 12:23 AM
TS, Ill go out on a limb and give you one answer based on experience.

Eric is brilliant, so i can't dispute his info.

I for one, would imagine 2400iu in one shot is a bit, high...only because I believe in the desensitization theory.

With that being said and done, if it were me, I'd take my chances and do something smaller, even say 750iu or even 1250iu and do that every 4th day and maybe hit it for a few shots, say 3 or 4....

There are a million ways to do it, and more then one way works. I would say in my experience there is no factual way to put a number on an indvidual. My very own endocrinologists for years relied on my advice and "suggestions" to decide dosaging. It is virtually unknown.

For fertility issues, it seems 5K iu shots are the norm. But desensitization is not even considered. I'd personally rather be safe then sorry, but to each his own.

If he is mid stream in a cycle, i'd just have him do something small, 250iu 2x per week.

Granted I am not the only information on HCG..but I can tell u the dosages I named, I have seen them work in dozens of individuals over the past 15+ years very well.

I generally don't get into HCG discussions, bc truthfully, there are dozens of ways to do it. Good luck man.

tallstraw
10-23-2014, 11:43 AM
That last paragraph is exactly why I'm asking. I've seen so many conflicting answers and schools of thought. I'll pass both the power protocol and your advice unto him. I think it'd be best like proposed if he gets off. So I'll tell him that one first. If he just isn't having it, then I'll move to option B. And give him your advice. I'll tell him 1250iu E4d for a or 4 pins. Then taper back down to the recommended protocol of 100iu ED, or 250e3d. Thanks both of you, this gives me a 2 pronged approach incase he tries to say no to the first I have a fallback for him.

Jelisej
10-23-2014, 03:56 PM
I think Wesley hit the nail: "There are a million ways to do it, and more then one way works. I would say in my experience there is no factual way to put a number on an indvidual. My very own endocrinologists for years relied on my advice and "suggestions" to decide dosaging. It is virtually unknown. "

The exact dosage of HCG for each individual is different, and most effective protocol itself can be different, for some people more frequent like 100 IU daily works better, for some less frequent but bit higher doses work better. Most common is 250- 300 IU 3X a week is what suits most of people, and for a reason- as most effective dose of HCG is somewhere in between 250- 300 IU, adn there are some research that show that 500 IU is not really more effective than 250 IU, and from anecdotal experience higher doses of HCG can raise progesterone too much and it can lead to depletion of pregnenolone. So personally I think any dose over 500 IU is not really needed IMO, if testicles dont work it will take them time to start working. If your friend is in middle of cycle than he should go with usual 250-300 IU, if he is at end he can run HCG solo for a while and then go for extended PCT.

I personally dont like idea of using HCG in PCT or combining HCG and clomid as pituary will not be working as long as HCG is in system, so basically on HCG you're still shut.

O.N.
10-23-2014, 08:39 PM
I think Wesley hit the nail: "There are a million ways to do it, and more then one way works. I would say in my experience there is no factual way to put a number on an indvidual. My very own endocrinologists for years relied on my advice and "suggestions" to decide dosaging. It is virtually unknown. "

The exact dosage of HCG for each individual is different, and most effective protocol itself can be different, for some people more frequent like 100 IU daily works better, for some less frequent but bit higher doses work better. Most common is 250- 300 IU 3X a week is what suits most of people, and for a reason- as most effective dose of HCG is somewhere in between 250- 300 IU, adn there are some research that show that 500 IU is not really more effective than 250 IU, and from anecdotal experience higher doses of HCG can raise progesterone too much and it can lead to depletion of pregnenolone. So personally I think any dose over 500 IU is not really needed IMO, if testicles dont work it will take them time to start working. If your friend is in middle of cycle than he should go with usual 250-300 IU, if he is at end he can run HCG solo for a while and then go for extended PCT.

I personally dont like idea of using HCG in PCT or combining HCG and clomid as pituary will not be working as long as HCG is in system, so basically on HCG you're still shut.

HCG isn't suppressive have a read here: http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/4981-epistane-pct-2.html#post91537 (http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/4981-epistane-pct-2.html#post91537)

Also you do not want to be playing with the HCG dose too much on cycle 250IU 2x per week once compounded in the system is equal to 94% of a normal males LH release.

Jelisej
10-26-2014, 02:18 PM
HCG isn't suppressive have a read here: http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/4981-epistane-pct-2.html#post91537 (http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/pct-post-cycle-therapy-oct-on-cycle-therapy/4981-epistane-pct-2.html#post91537)

Also you do not want to be playing with the HCG dose too much on cycle 250IU 2x per week once compounded in the system is equal to 94% of a normal males LH release.

HCG does more than you think, it not just simulates LH (and FSH a bit) it has a profound effect on number of other hormones- it fasten up thyroid and adrenal etc- and one of downsides is that it aromatise a lot (depending on functionality of testicles) so it does create negative feedback. Now you may say that clomid will fix that but- it will not, as otherwise we would use clomid during cycle itself, but unfortunately it just does not work that way.
In any case- I would not suggest using HCG during PCT.

tallstraw
10-26-2014, 09:50 PM
I follow the no hcg in pct as well. To each their own. I run it up to the week before cessation. Let it clear and start PCT.

Tanner wasn't having thr steroids bit lol. So i ordered some hcg for my winter bulk cycle I'm gonna run. And got some for him as well..fuckin tard

Gonna do 750 e4d for 3 pins. Then 100iu ED. That's what I'd feel safest doing. So i passed that schedule to him.

O.N.
10-27-2014, 03:04 AM
HCG does more than you think, it not just simulates LH (and FSH a bit) it has a profound effect on number of other hormones- it fasten up thyroid and adrenal etc- and one of downsides is that it aromatise a lot (depending on functionality of testicles) so it does create negative feedback. Now you may say that clomid will fix that but- it will not, as otherwise we would use clomid during cycle itself, but unfortunately it just does not work that way.
In any case- I would not suggest using HCG during PCT.

I think you have a misunderstanding of how the drug works it doesn't stimulate the production of LH and FSH, it acts in place of LH since it is similar to LH in its action. HCG does aromatize slightly more in favor of estrogen than testosterone production, for this you should use an AI.

You suggestion of clomid also shows that you do not understand this drug very well either it is a SERM (selective estrogen receptor modulator) meaning it blocks estrogen selectively in certain receptors....it doesn't remove estrogen from the body, so any excess estrogen caused by your use of steroids or HCG will not be removed from the body with the use of a SERM, this is when an AI should be used to remove estrogen from the body....compared to a SERM which simply shuffles it around to other places causes you to have excess estrogen and thus the many toxic side effects associated to SERM usage.


I follow the no hcg in pct as well. To each their own. I run it up to the week before cessation. Let it clear and start PCT.

Tanner wasn't having thr steroids bit lol. So i ordered some hcg for my winter bulk cycle I'm gonna run. And got some for him as well..fuckin tard

Gonna do 750 e4d for 3 pins. Then 100iu ED. That's what I'd feel safest doing. So i passed that schedule to him.

HCG can be used for performance enhancement it's a sports athletes friend in this regard if you know when you are going to be drug tested you can use HCG at other times to boost testosterone levels quickly to about 140%, this is also a reason porn stars use it for bigger cum loads. You should be continuing HCG for about 2 weeks post your last injection as the steroids are still very much active and suppressing your production of testosterone, as an example 500mg test e will take about 33 days to clear your system, if you continue HCG for 14 days of this 33 day period when the test e has almost left the system the HCG will be almost cleared of the system too.

When your testosterone level takes a small dive and you are not using HCG the bodies natural response to this will be to release LH and thus your natural testosterone production will begin again....this will be a switch over period with minimal to no downtime.

As an example if your natural testosterone level is say 25nmol/L and HCG is making you have a level of 30nmol/L the minute you withdraw from HCG use and the level drops below 25nmol/L your natural LH will release as the HCG is no longer active or working.

This has been done many times over and is the best way to have a simple transitional period from steroids to natural production.

Also HCG does have a performance advantage as said before as an example if HCG makes you have 30nmol/L then you inject 500mg test e per week and this gives you 60nmol/L will now you have 2 sources of testosterone in your body 30nmol/L + 60nmol/L

HCG can be compared to using GH releasing peptides, they stimulate the production of GH in high levels once you stop taking them the body then releases it's normal level of GH once again.

LH is no different HCG takes it's place in the role of testosterone production, once withdrawn and the levels drop low enough to signal the brain to release LH then LH will be released.

Jelisej
10-27-2014, 04:45 PM
O.N. you misread my previous post- I did not say that HCG stimulates LH, I said it simulates LH which is completely different, also I did not make any suggestion regarding clomid neither described its action so I dont know why you concluded that I dont understand this drug very well.


"LH is no different HCG takes it's place in the role of testosterone production, once withdrawn and the levels drop low enough to signal the brain to release LH then LH will be released. " -now this is what I been saying earlier, and this is reason why HCG has no place in PCT (because pituary will not signal testes to make testosterone via LH as long as HCG is present).

Bucks
10-27-2014, 06:02 PM
HCG , Tada , Viagra, AH and Trest! I can say with that combo I'm a legend in my own mind and the girl I'm in bed with! LOL.

I just wish I was famous and had that line of rats outside my travel bus. You you and you, Next! LOL.

O.N.
10-28-2014, 03:41 AM
O.N. you misread my previous post- I did not say that HCG stimulates LH, I said it simulates LH which is completely different, also I did not make any suggestion regarding clomid neither described its action so I dont know why you concluded that I dont understand this drug very well.


"LH is no different HCG takes it's place in the role of testosterone production, once withdrawn and the levels drop low enough to signal the brain to release LH then LH will be released. " -now this is what I been saying earlier, and this is reason why HCG has no place in PCT (because pituary will not signal testes to make testosterone via LH as long as HCG is present).

Sorry sleepy eyes and over worked...lol

I'll describe exactly when HCG is required up until and why but then i will throw something else in there to think about:

1. Whilst on cycle HCG should be used at a dosage of 250IU 2x per week, many years ago after much study and comparisons i worked out that this dosage once it compounds and builds up in the body over several weeks is equal to 94% of a normal males LH output. So this dose is the most optimal being very closely matched to "a healthy male" not every one is healthy but this is considered normal.

Once you stop taking steroids eg 500mg testosterone enanthate per week this ester "enanthate" at this dosage "500mg" will take roughly 33 days to clear your system - thus HCG should be used for 14 days past your last injection whilst the esters are clearing the body (and still suppressing the natural production of testosterone), for the remaining 19 days HCG will clear along with the enanthate and a recovery will be successful.

2. HCG stimulates the production of testosterone, if you are a normal male and produce say 25nmol/L of testosterone right now and then start taking say 700-750IU of HCG per week your testosterone level will increase from 25nmol/L to say 40nmol/L, if you then discontinue the use of HCG when it no longer has a stimulation effect on testosterone production and the level then drops below 25nmol/L the brain will sense this and immediately release LH in response to bring the level and maintain the level at 25nmol/L.

There is no mechanism within the body to respond in any different manner, the testes have maintained a normal function, the leydig cells are all stimulated and responsive, none are desensitized to LH. So this is why HCG isn't a bad thing and can certainly be used into PCT.

The one thing i can agree on is that HCG should not be abused in that it should not be used in too higher doses for too long which can then overstimulate and damage the leydig cells.

Jelisej
10-28-2014, 05:06 PM
You have some good points, on some I agree on some I have different solution, and on HCG in PCT- we can agree to disagree.

1. On number of research for HCG it seems that 250- 300 IU is where it is most effective overall and from lot of feedback in (vast?) majority of cases is enough during cycle, and on top of being effective is quite safe dose. Now- were we dont agree is frequency- 2X a week is not frequent enough, 3X is a minimum and reason being is- active half life is not as long as some people think, its around 1.5 half day, altough it can vary a lot.
There are some people who got better results with more frequent injection and smaller doses, but it seems to me that its minority, and from personal experience 3X 250 IU worked much better than daily dosing.

Also, on top of preventing leydig cells obliteration HCG brings out lot more good stuff, it increases metabolic rate (which also makes cycle more effective) by stimulating thyroid and adrenals, it brings out a number of other hormones in play which comes with many merits (it has positive effect on libido as Bucks said) and it even increases level of oxytocin

I absolutely agree that HCG should be taken until PCT and if one is using long esters he should continue to use HCG while after stopping AAS- altough I always suggest to "bridge" with shorter ester e.g after stopping testosterone enthanate one can use test propionate for another 4-5 weeks, which makes everything easier, including calculating start of PCT- which is actually hard to calculate, and rarely people get it right, very often people finish they PCT before they should
even start it.


As for HCG in PCT- there is absolutely not a single reason why should one use it during PCT, as clomid itself will raise LH, plus other benefits including refreshing receptors etc...

tallstraw
10-28-2014, 05:58 PM
I meant a week before cesation. But i didn't clarify what I meant, my bad. I stop my long esters 4 weeks out, run prop for 2 weeks out. Then strictly orals for the last 2 weeks. 1 week prior to that last week of oral only ends, I cease the HCG. Does that mesh better? I don't like HCG in pct because I assume like anything else, with exogenous hormones your body won't make any, or near as much. And the last 7 days is enough for the hcg to clear and I should essentially be ester free by then.

I think that should better clear it up, that way if I'm still doing something wrong. You can more easily pick apart where my flaws are so I can learn more!

Jelisej
10-28-2014, 06:28 PM
I meant a week before cesation. But i didn't clarify what I meant, my bad. I stop my long esters 4 weeks out, run prop for 2 weeks out. Then strictly orals for the last 2 weeks. 1 week prior to that last week of oral only ends, I cease the HCG. Does that mesh better? I don't like HCG in pct because I assume like anything else, with exogenous hormones your body won't make any, or near as much. And the last 7 days is enough for the hcg to clear and I should essentially be ester free by then.

I think that should better clear it up, that way if I'm still doing something wrong. You can more easily pick apart where my flaws are so I can learn more!

Sounds OK to me, you can go with HCG till 2-3 days before start of PCT, should be no problem at all. Good luck bro'.