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rmoore
12-26-2016, 04:29 PM
Hey Guys

Happy Holidays to all. Today I just started my juice feast. I'm doing my research so I can write down my diet while I'm not taking in food. Is there a good website paleo style diet? and I usually workout at 5:00 PM so would I carb back load after workout till bed time and what carbs would be best? I see people eat pizza, ice cream, etc.. Would PFS guys eat like white rice, sweet potatoes, red potatoes at that time? Should I wait a week after my juice feast to start carb back loding? Thanks

SoCal-Nutrition
12-26-2016, 04:43 PM
I moved this to the diet and nutrition section.

delsolrob
12-26-2016, 04:56 PM
Please outline your intentions of the juice fast...as nearly all "benefits" of such fasting have been debunked.

also, what is your goal of carb back loading? if it's a lean bulk, then you should choose better carbs...I would recommend HBCD in your post workout shake and then carbs like brown rice and potatoes or sweet potatoes. other types of oats are also great.

Cdsnuts
01-03-2017, 12:35 PM
Please outline your intentions of the juice fast...as nearly all "benefits" of such fasting have been debunked.

also, what is your goal of carb back loading? if it's a lean bulk, then you should choose better carbs...I would recommend HBCD in your post workout shake and then carbs like brown rice and potatoes or sweet potatoes. other types of oats are also great.

I think he's a PFS guy Rob. And when you say "all benefits of such fasting have been debunked" What exactly are you talking about? Water fasting, juice feasting? Etc. As I can tell you from personal experience that these things are hugely beneficial depending on your goals. I'm not sure what has been "debunked" about any type of these things nor who the people are that are debunking them.....

Cdsnuts
01-03-2017, 12:41 PM
Hey Guys

Happy Holidays to all. Today I just started my juice feast. I'm doing my research so I can write down my diet while I'm not taking in food. Is there a good website paleo style diet? and I usually workout at 5:00 PM so would I carb back load after workout till bed time and what carbs would be best? I see people eat pizza, ice cream, etc.. Would PFS guys eat like white rice, sweet potatoes, red potatoes at that time? Should I wait a week after my juice feast to start carb back loding? Thanks

If you're a PFS guy, then you want to wait to get back up to speed after the fast before lifting heavy. Give it a month. After the feast focus on body weight exercises for a few weeks before lifting.

In regards to the back-loading, you want to eat "clean" instead of that other garbage. Yes, you can back load with pizza and ice cream, but for health reasons at this point you want to focus on healthier choices. Rice, potatoes, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with white rice, although brown rice definitely has more nutritious qualities.

rmoore
01-05-2017, 08:58 PM
If you're a PFS guy, then you want to wait to get back up to speed after the fast before lifting heavy. Give it a month. After the feast focus on body weight exercises for a few weeks before lifting.

In regards to the back-loading, you want to eat "clean" instead of that other garbage. Yes, you can back load with pizza and ice cream, but for health reasons at this point you want to focus on healthier choices. Rice, potatoes, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with white rice, although brown rice definitely has more nutritious qualities.

Thanks CD for the info. I am a PFS guy. I took fin for 15 years and stopped 2 years ago. I first noticed symptoms is when all of a sudden I had a full blown panic attack while I was still taking it. I thought it was from taking about 900 mg pre-workout so I stopped caffeine and I never had caffeine for three years now. The last two years my symptoms are mainly fatigue, hypothyroidism symptoms, ringing in ears, mind like no emotions etc... and sleep. Anxiety pretty much went away as time went on and fatigue is still there but little better and sleep is still a problem. I fall asleep and start dreaming the wake up in the middle of dream then I fall asleep again and dream and wake up in the middle and so on. Just trying to get my plan together with the protocol.

delsolrob
02-04-2017, 09:09 PM
I think he's a PFS guy Rob. And when you say "all benefits of such fasting have been debunked" What exactly are you talking about? Water fasting, juice feasting? Etc. As I can tell you from personal experience that these things are hugely beneficial depending on your goals. I'm not sure what has been "debunked" about any type of these things nor who the people are that are debunking them.....

please post studies regarding fasting protocols and their benefits. I have only seen studies that suggest the benefits are minimal and did not last beyond the fasting period.

I've also read of salt deficiencies and other complications of these types of fasting.

Additionally, spikes in cortisol...all issues associated with cortisol spiking

If there is information that I have not seen, then please share. But, as far as I've been aware, these methods have been extremely controversial due to lack of data.

Cdsnuts
02-07-2017, 06:48 AM
please post studies regarding fasting protocols and their benefits. I have only seen studies that suggest the benefits are minimal and did not last beyond the fasting period.

I've also read of salt deficiencies and other complications of these types of fasting.

Additionally, spikes in cortisol...all issues associated with cortisol spiking

If there is information that I have not seen, then please share. But, as far as I've been aware, these methods have been extremely controversial due to lack of data.

I speak from personal experience....I know that "scientifically" that doesn't count for much for some people. So here are some resources for you to go over at your leisure.

The very last link is actually an article done by GQ at the center that I use....

Fasting works, period. To the ones that have experienced it, there doesn't need to be anything else said. It's always the folks that have never fasted a day in their lives that need all of the reassurances and have all of the doubts....I guess that is what's to be expected, and makes sense. But it is real, and it is powerful.

Here is a list of links that may be of interest to you.
http://www.healthpromoting.com/sites/default/files/imce/Water%20Fasting%20and%20Lymphoma%20Case%20Study%20 TNH.pdf (fasting and Lymphoma)
Medically Supervised Water-only Fasting in the Treatment of Hypertension | TrueNorth Health (http://www.healthpromoting.com/learning-center/articles/medically-supervised-water-only-fasting-treatment-hypertension) (fasting and high blood pressure)
Medically Supervised Water-Only Fasting in the Treatment of Borderline Hypertension | TrueNorth Health (http://www.healthpromoting.com/learning-center/articles/medically-supervised-water-only-fasting-treatment-borderline-hypertension) (fasting and moderate high blood pressure)
Fasting: Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications | TrueNorth Health (http://www.healthpromoting.com/learning-center/articles/fasting-molecular-mechanisms-and-clinical-applications) (fasting mechanisms)
Alan Goldhamer, DC: Water Fastingā€”The Clinical Effectiveness of Rebooting Your Body | TrueNorth Health (http://www.healthpromoting.com/learning-center/articles/alan-goldhamer-dc-water-fasting%E2%80%94-clinical-effectiveness-rebooting-your-body) (interview with Dr. Goldhamer)
The pleasure trap: Douglas Lisle at TEDx Fremont | TrueNorth Health (http://www.healthpromoting.com/learning-center/truenorth-tv/pleasure-trap-douglas-lisle-tedx-fremont) (tedx talk on the pleasure trap by Dr. Lisle)
Fasting: An Ancient Practice for Modern Problems | TrueNorth Health (http://www.healthpromoting.com/learning-center/truenorth-tv/fasting-ancient-practice-modern-problems) (fasting by Dr. Goldhamer)
Fasting for your Health - Lifestyle Magazine | TrueNorth Health (http://www.healthpromoting.com/learning-center/truenorth-tv/fasting-your-health-lifestyle-magazine) (TV show on fasting with Goldhamer and McDougall)
GQ Article: How the Terrible, Insufferable Six-Day Water Fast Made Me a New Man | TrueNorth Health (http://www.healthpromoting.com/learning-center/articles/gq-article-how-terrible-insufferable-six-day-water-fast-made-me-new-man) (GQ article on fasting at TNHC)

Cdsnuts
02-16-2017, 10:14 PM
Here's another good article that just hit my feed...

Fasting shown to regenerate stem cells, reverse immunosuppression after three days - NaturalNews.com (http://www.naturalnews.com/049794_stem_cells_fasting_immune_system.html)

If you follow the link and then go to the source of the article, which is Science direct DEFINE_ME_WA (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1934590914001519)

There are other studies done as well you may find interesting.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Synaesthesia
02-23-2017, 11:52 PM
Saw this on the front page of reddit today:
The pancreas can be triggered to regenerate itself through a type of fasting diet, say US researchers. (http://www.bbc.com/news/health-39070183)

Cdsnuts
02-24-2017, 07:40 AM
Saw this on the front page of reddit today:
The pancreas can be triggered to regenerate itself through a type of fasting diet, say US researchers. (http://www.bbc.com/news/health-39070183)

It is a powerful process, to say the least.

rmoore
03-01-2017, 11:08 AM
Hey CD. Been taking 5a-dhp, preg and thyroid med (not perscription) and stopped the herbs and my energy is still low from hypothyroidism. My waking temp is 97.0. Will the herb cycle fix thyroid and give me the energy or should try and fix the thyroid.

TubZy
03-01-2017, 12:01 PM
please post studies regarding fasting protocols and their benefits. I have only seen studies that suggest the benefits are minimal and did not last beyond the fasting period.

I've also read of salt deficiencies and other complications of these types of fasting.

Additionally, spikes in cortisol...all issues associated with cortisol spiking

If there is information that I have not seen, then please share. But, as far as I've been aware, these methods have been extremely controversial due to lack of data.

The cortisol issue is the reason why I'm not the biggest fan for fasting, not saying it doesn't have purpose though.

Same goes for keto diet, as the constant elevated levels of cortisol as well. Which makes sense why body temp and thyroid take a hit on ketogenic diet.

Cdsnuts
03-01-2017, 12:02 PM
The cortisol issue is the reason why I'm not the biggest fan for fasting, not saying it doesn't have purpose though.

Same goes for keto diet, as the constant elevated levels of cortisol as well. Which makes sense why body temp and thyroid take a hit on ketogenic diet.
That's why when you add an back-loading it smooths everything out.

And a rise in cortisol during a water fast is acute and not chronic. There's a big difference there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

TubZy
03-01-2017, 12:19 PM
That's why when you add an back-loading it smooths everything out.

And a rise in cortisol during a water fast is acute and not chronic. There's a big difference there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Yeah, backloading would be better. Although the bigger issue is even with backloading, you are training in a severely stressed state from being in a low blood sugar state all day. When blood sugar is low, cortisol has to kick in to keep stable and can rise very easily especially when there is nothing their to dampen it, like glucose.

What do you mean in terms of acute versus chronic? I think some of the posts that were referenced could be anywhere from 3 days to 30 days or so right?

Cdsnuts
03-01-2017, 06:41 PM
Yeah, backloading would be better. Although the bigger issue is even with backloading, you are training in a severely stressed state from being in a low blood sugar state all day. When blood sugar is low, cortisol has to kick in to keep stable and can rise very easily especially when there is nothing their to dampen it, like glucose.

What do you mean in terms of acute versus chronic? I think some of the posts that were referenced could be anywhere from 3 days to 30 days or so right?

When backloading, you're getting anywhere from 300-600 or more grams of carbs per loading period. That is typically enough to not only replenish glycogen stores from being depleted during your prior work out, but it is enough to carry you through until the next work out period the following day. It's not like you're training in a completely ketogenic state.

I've never had issues training, and training hard, unless I've under calculated the amount of carbs I had on the previous nights backload. Then you can feel the difference. I've actually hit some PR's during my backloading time. It's all about dialing it in for YOU. Everybody is different. You just have to tweak it until it works. There is a pretty big learning curve in the beginning, but once you get it, it's a pretty amazing and effective technique. I obviously love it and have had great success with it. Alot of guys will bail on it before getting right, unfortunately.

The benefits gained from an extended water fast FAR outweigh any downsides from a temporary increase in cortisol. Especially the guys that are completely gunked up with pharmaceuticals, exogenous hormones, xenoestrogens and a lifetimes worth of metabolic waste. The negative impact these waste products have in regards to optimal cellular functioning is astounding.

Let's just say, for arguments sake, that cortisol remained high for two weeks.....or even a month. Compared to your lifetime, percentage wise, it's nothing. Again, you have to look at it in terms of lifetime benefits over any short term negatives. This is why it's considered "acute." You have to look at this holistically over the long term as that is where your lasting results are going to be.

Cdsnuts
03-02-2017, 10:12 AM
This article hit my feed today. Great timing. It touches on all aspects of detoxification.

How to Tell if You Have a Healthy Brain Steve Pavlina (https://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2017/02/how-to-tell-if-you-have-a-healthy-brain/)

Cdsnuts
03-02-2017, 10:15 AM
Hey CD. Been taking 5a-dhp, preg and thyroid med (not perscription) and stopped the herbs and my energy is still low from hypothyroidism. My waking temp is 97.0. Will the herb cycle fix thyroid and give me the energy or should try and fix the thyroid.

One thing I try and pass on in regards to the healing process is to not try and focus too much on certain things. You have to treat the body as a whole and as the body heals, so will all other nagging issues.

If you must, you can include an extra iodine supplement which increases thyroid output naturally: Iodine Total Male Optimization (http://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/testosterone-boosting-supplement-rotation/iodine/)

Aside from this, just focus on the whole protocol in general. These things will eventually work themselves out in due time.

TubZy
03-03-2017, 01:00 AM
When backloading, you're getting anywhere from 300-600 or more grams of carbs per loading period. That is typically enough to not only replenish glycogen stores from being depleted during your prior work out, but it is enough to carry you through until the next work out period the following day. It's not like you're training in a completely ketogenic state.

I've never had issues training, and training hard, unless I've under calculated the amount of carbs I had on the previous nights backload. Then you can feel the difference. I've actually hit some PR's during my backloading time. It's all about dialing it in for YOU. Everybody is different. You just have to tweak it until it works. There is a pretty big learning curve in the beginning, but once you get it, it's a pretty amazing and effective technique. I obviously love it and have had great success with it. Alot of guys will bail on it before getting right, unfortunately.

The benefits gained from an extended water fast FAR outweigh any downsides from a temporary increase in cortisol. Especially the guys that are completely gunked up with pharmaceuticals, exogenous hormones, xenoestrogens and a lifetimes worth of metabolic waste. The negative impact these waste products have in regards to optimal cellular functioning is astounding.

Let's just say, for arguments sake, that cortisol remained high for two weeks.....or even a month. Compared to your lifetime, percentage wise, it's nothing. Again, you have to look at it in terms of lifetime benefits over any short term negatives. This is why it's considered "acute." You have to look at this holistically over the long term as that is where your lasting results are going to be.

Yeah, I think that could be possible although it depends on carbs in what form rice, sugars, fats etc. I think that could play a factor too. Can glycogen reserves still stay full up to 24 hours though? I never heard of that, and I thought the mechanism of carb backloading was to soak as much carbs as you can post workout, which would mean your glycogen reserves would even deplete quicker from the liver due to the muscle soaking it up post workout.

You know me lol, I just can't find like any scientific evidence on backloading. The only stuff I can find is it being promoted by Dangerously Hardcore. If you come across any studies or have them on you, I would be curious to read them, if it's not a hassle.

Well, the thing with keto is that if you are actually in a ketogenic state (burning ketones) and fully adapted you aren't really "starving" yourself since your liver is now converting fats into fatty acids and ketones for fuel to the cells. So once adapted, cortisol levels would stay elevated in a chronic way (to support blood sugar) as it's a back up mechanism (from glucose) compared to say backloading where you would be doing cortisol spikes (acute).

I did try carb backloading for a while, I did actually like the anabolic effects of it, but just seemed to stressful during the day especially trying to do mental tasks and critical thinking, at least for me. You are right, everyone is different, so if someone had a high metabolism, carb backloading wouldn't really be ideal as you would burn up calories/carbs much quicker than someone whose is lower.

Yeah, I definitely think short term fasting has a purpose, like you said if you are doing it to detox from something in particular like a toxin it definitely could be useful, but again there are other things that could also do that like activated charcoal and cascara. So it all depends on the individual.:)

Charcoal can also lower endotoxin in the gut which would lower serotonin leading to even lower cortisol. It is actually pro metabolic and can kill fungi and bacteria along with even crossing the blood brain barrier. It is used universally in hospitals for overdoses of drugs, chemicals, bacteria etc.

Effectiveness of delayed activated charcoal administration in simulated paracetamol (acetaminophen) overdose (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2014891/)

Oral activated charcoal is often used to treat drug overdose. Compared with other gastrointestinal decontamination methods, such as gastric lavage, induction of emesis or whole bowel irrigation, it is simple to administer and relatively safe. Its efficacy in preventing drug absorption has been studied in vivo for a wide variety of agents; these studies have recently been subject to detailed review [1]. Large reductions in drug absorption occur when activated charcoal is administered soon after drug ingestion. For example, paracetamol absorption can be reduced by 83% by activated charcoal administered within five minutes [2]. Activated charcoal appears at least as effective as other gastrointestinal decontamination methods when used one hour after simulated drug overdose [3].

Studies with activated charcoal in the treatment of drug overdosage using the pig as an animal model | SpringerLink (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00353337)
Oral Activated Charcoal Prevents Experimental Cerebral Malaria in Mice and in a Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial in Man Did Not Interfere with the Pharmacokinetics of Parenteral Artesunate (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2855344/)

Cdsnuts
03-03-2017, 08:00 AM
Yeah, I think that could be possible although it depends on carbs in what form rice, sugars, fats etc. I think that could play a factor too. Can glycogen reserves still stay full up to 24 hours though? I never heard of that, and I thought the mechanism of carb backloading was to soak as much carbs as you can post workout, which would mean your glycogen reserves would even deplete quicker from the liver due to the muscle soaking it up post workout.

You know me lol, I just can't find like any scientific evidence on backloading. The only stuff I can find is it being promoted by Dangerously Hardcore. If you come across any studies or have them on you, I would be curious to read them, if it's not a hassle.

Well, the thing with keto is that if you are actually in a ketogenic state (burning ketones) and fully adapted you aren't really "starving" yourself since your liver is now converting fats into fatty acids and ketones for fuel to the cells. So once adapted, cortisol levels would stay elevated in a chronic way (to support blood sugar) as it's a back up mechanism (from glucose) compared to say backloading where you would be doing cortisol spikes (acute).

I did try carb backloading for a while, I did actually like the anabolic effects of it, but just seemed to stressful during the day especially trying to do mental tasks and critical thinking, at least for me. You are right, everyone is different, so if someone had a high metabolism, carb backloading wouldn't really be ideal as you would burn up calories/carbs much quicker than someone whose is lower.

Yeah, I definitely think short term fasting has a purpose, like you said if you are doing it to detox from something in particular like a toxin it definitely could be useful, but again there are other things that could also do that like activated charcoal and cascara. So it all depends on the individual.:)

Charcoal can also lower endotoxin in the gut which would lower serotonin leading to even lower cortisol. It is actually pro metabolic and can kill fungi and bacteria along with even crossing the blood brain barrier. It is used universally in hospitals for overdoses of drugs, chemicals, bacteria etc.

Effectiveness of delayed activated charcoal administration in simulated paracetamol (acetaminophen) overdose (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2014891/)

Oral activated charcoal is often used to treat drug overdose. Compared with other gastrointestinal decontamination methods, such as gastric lavage, induction of emesis or whole bowel irrigation, it is simple to administer and relatively safe. Its efficacy in preventing drug absorption has been studied in vivo for a wide variety of agents; these studies have recently been subject to detailed review [1]. Large reductions in drug absorption occur when activated charcoal is administered soon after drug ingestion. For example, paracetamol absorption can be reduced by 83% by activated charcoal administered within five minutes [2]. Activated charcoal appears at least as effective as other gastrointestinal decontamination methods when used one hour after simulated drug overdose [3].

Studies with activated charcoal in the treatment of drug overdosage using the pig as an animal model | SpringerLink (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00353337)
Oral Activated Charcoal Prevents Experimental Cerebral Malaria in Mice and in a Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial in Man Did Not Interfere with the Pharmacokinetics of Parenteral Artesunate (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2855344/)

I have all of the science break down from Kiefer. So for science minded individuals, that is where you're going to want to look. It works for me as advertised.

I had no trouble during the day staying carb free at all because of the large amount of carbs I would smash the night before. None what so ever. So regardless of what "studies" say, I take real world experience over what someone in a lab says, who is running an experiment based on variable inputs and NOT on themselves. My experience and the personal experience of others means more to me. Simply because it's real world outcomes...

You know....one thing I've noticed over the years about people who are very science minded and focus on the minutia of detail, while being brilliant, alot of times they miss the Forrest for the trees. They're TOO focused on the details to notice the bigger picture. That's where they go wrong. I'm trying to think of a clever example here to illustrate my point.... one escapes me right now. But lets say you're looking at the planet from space. You can see the whole planet. You can see what is happening with the continents, with the oceans, with the weather, etc. I get a snap shot of the WHOLE thing. If you take a telescope from a satellite and focus down on the surface of the planet, you can see what is going on with individuals on that planet. But just because you can see them, and what they are doing, you no longer have the correct view as to what is going on in the bigger picture. Not the best example, but most of the time alot of these researches need to TAKE A STEP BACK from what they are looking at and look at it in a more complete way.

Yeah...I know you're big on studies. But studies didn't get me to where I am. And if I would have taken the advice from information based on studies, I wouldn't have gotten far at all because it would have stopped me from doing alot of the extremely helpful things that I did. So I take them with a grain of salt. Alot of times they're skewed in one direction or the other depending on the outcomes the scientists want. There were probably a ton of studies on the safety of Propecia, if you get my drift. Many of them just don't hold weight to me.

Instead, why don't you create you OWN studies from experience. See how you do with backloading by keeping track of the different carb intakes and how many grams you took the night before, etc. That would hold much more weight then some random, scientifically irrelevant study.

Lol....there is that science mind at work again. Forrest for the trees man, forrest for the trees. Taking charcoal would make sense during an acute toxicity issue. But again...This does not, and cannot, nor ever will, compare to the power of an extended fast.

You're comparing apples and oranges, not apples and apples.....Not even close.

These studies are done on acute toxicity issues. That is not the case with most fasters. If you're experiencing acute toxicity then you better go the hospital, not a fasting center. Fasting and the administration of charcoal are two completely different things for two completely different purposes.

When you fast, you detox every cell of all cellular waste that has been, for the most part, built up over a lifetime. Unless you're experiencing an acute toxic over load due to the things listed in the study, the charcoal isn't going to do ANYTHING in this regards.

It's not going to remove toxins that are stored at the cellular level

It's not going to remove ANYTHING stored in fat cells. These cells are broken down during the fast for energy and the waste inside them is then processed out.

it's not going to remove YEARS of built up cellular metabolic waste.

But more importantly, it's not going to provide the profound rest that is obtained during an extended fast.

I was going to say, here again is where a study falls short because it doesn't focus on the WHOLE picture. But the study isn't even comparing the correct thing. It's not 100% about detox. While that is a huge part of it, it's also about resting your digestion.

By stopping the digestive engine, you signal to your body that it can really dig out the deep stuff now....the stuff that charcoal wouldn't do anything for and wouldn't come close to touching. The stuff that is stored deep, deep within the tissues.

Once this digestive engine stops, the reversal starts. Eating/consuming = retoxing, Fasting = detoxing.

Charcoal is no match for an extended fast. None. It doesn't even compare on the same level because it's not comparing the same things.

If you were to undertake one yourself, you would EASILY see this. Easily.

Anyone who has experienced an extended fast will tell you the same thing. It always seems like it's the folks who are not on board for whatever reason, are the ones that are looking for "studies" to tell them they are right. Studies are no match for real world experience.

There are plenty of examples (I do have these somewhere) of fasting under medical supervision of people that have REVERSED and ELIMINATED their cancers by fasting them away. These same people could have taken activated charcoal and they would still have cancer, otherwise charcoals would be the cure for cancer. Fasting works differently, and deeply, at reversing internal toxicity, which is what breeds and creates cancer. This is different from acute toxicity which is what the studies you referenced are about.

There are plenty of studies done on extended fasting. Why don't you research those if you're interested?

That being said, I just want to preface... I'm not here to try and PROVE anything to anyone. I'm simply here in the capacity to help people and guide them through the process of curing their PFS.

I'm sharing what has without a doubt worked for me and others. People can choose to take this information based on my experiences and the experiences of others, or not. It really is up to them, and honestly, doesn't matter to me what others believe based on nothing but studies. These studies have really done nothing to help these guys gain a better foot hold on their lives, at all. If they did, there would be no more PFS.

They're in a position where they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I appreciate all that you've shared here, and I hope you don't take this message the wrong way, because that's not my intention.

Every once in awhile I find myself having to "defend" my position, and honestly, it's really a drain on my energy and focus, lol.

The people that choose to go all in and gain these experiences first hand, will see the power in these things and know what it is I'm sharing.

I feel that sometimes I can't properly put into words exactly how and why these things work in the frame of scientific studies and verbiage. I can see why others would be skeptical, especially if they base all of their decisions on scientific studies and what modern medicine says is the best course of action. This can obviously be a source of frustration to me, because I want to be as clear as I possibly can.

Sometimes that takes a leap of faith. (Faith based on natural science, not fairy tales) The ones who take that leap based upon their gut instinct as to why it would work, are the ones who reap those benefits and are the ones who become the staunchest proponents of such methods. There is a reason why these people defend these practices with such zeal, despite any doubts from the medical community that in most cases, are the ones who put them in their compromised position in the first place!

As with most things, current western medical model most definitely included, all you need to do is follow the money and you will have your answer as to why certain things are pushed and others are swept under the carpet.

TubZy
03-04-2017, 01:35 AM
I have all of the science break down from Kiefer. So for science minded individuals, that is where you're going to want to look. It works for me as advertised.

I had no trouble during the day staying carb free at all because of the large amount of carbs I would smash the night before. Non what so ever. So regardless of what "studies" say, I take real world experience over what someone in a lab says, who is running an experiment based on variable inputs and NOT on themselves. My experience and the personal experience of others means more to me. Simply because it's real world outcomes...

You know....one thing I've noticed over the years about people who are very science minded and focus on the minutia of detail, while being brilliant, alot of times they miss the Forrest for the trees. They're TOO focused on the details to notice the bigger picture. That's where they go wrong. I'm trying to think of a clever example here to illustrate my point, one escapes me right now. But lets say you're looking at the planet from space. You can see the whole planet. You can see what is happening of the continents, with the oceans, with the weather, etc. I get a snap shot of the WHOLE thing. If you take a telescope from a satellite and focus down on the surface of the planet, you can see what is going on with individuals on that planet. But just because you can see them, and what they are doing, you no longer have the correct view as to what is going on in the bigger picture. Not the best example, but most of the time alot of these researches need to TAKE A STEP BACK from what they are looking at and look at it in in more complete way.

Yeah...I know you're big on studies. But studies didn't get me to where I am, so I take them with a grain of salt. Alot of times they're skewed in one direction or the other depending on the outcomes the scientists want. There were probably a ton of studies on the safety of Propecia, if you get my drift. Many of them just don't hold weight to me.

Instead, why don't you create you OWN studies from experience. See how you do with backloading by keeping track of the different carb intakes and how many grams you took the night before, etc. That would hold much more weight then some random, scientifically irrelevant study.

Lol....there is that science mind at work again. Forrest for the trees man, forrest for the trees. Taking charcoal would make sense during an acute toxicity issue. But again...This does not, and cannot, nor ever will, compare to the power of an extended fast.

Not even close.

These studies are done on acute toxicity issues. That is not the case with most fasters. If you're experiencing acute toxicity then you better go the hospital, not a fasting center. Fasting and the administration of charcoal are two completely different things for two completely different experiences.

When you fast, you detox every cell of all cellular waste. Unless you're experiencing an acute toxic over load due to the things listed in the study, the charcoal isn't going to do ANYTHING in this regards.

It's not going to remove toxins that are stored at the cellular level

It's not going to remove ANYTHING stored in fat cells. These cells are broken down during the fast for energy and the waste inside them is then processed out.

it's not going to remove YEARS of built up cellular metabolic waste.

But more importantly, it's not going to provide the profound rest that is obtained during an extended fast.

I was going to say, here again is where a study falls short because it doesn't focus on the WHOLE picture. But the study isn't even comparing the correct thing. It's not 100% about detox. While that is a huge part of it, it's also about resting your digestion.

By stopping the digestive engine, you signal to your body that it can really dig out the deep stuff now....the stuff that charcoal wouldn't do anything for and wouldn't come close to touching. The stuff that is stored deep, deep within the tissues.

Once this digestive engine stops, the reversal starts.

Charcoal is no match for an extended fast. None. It doesn't even compare on the same level.

If you were to undertake one yourself, you would EASILY see this. Easily.

Anyone who has experienced an extended fast will tell you the same thing. It's always seems like it's the folks who are not on board for whatever reason, are the ones that are looking for "studies" to tell them they are right. Studies are no match for real world experience.

That being said, I just want to preface... I'm not here to try and PROVE anything to anyone. I'm simply here in the capacity to help people and guide them through the process of curing their PFS.

I'm sharing what has without a doubt worked for me. People can choose to take this information based on my experiences and the experiences of others, or not. It really is up to them, and honestly, doesn't matter to me what others believe based on nothing but studies. These studies have really done nothing to help these guys gain a better foot hold on their lives, at all. If they did, there would be no more PFS.

They're in a position where they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I appreciate all that you've shared here, and I hope you don't take this message the wrong way, because that's not my intention.

Every once in awhile I find myself having to "defend" my position, and honestly, it's really a drain on my energy and focus, lol.

The people that choose to go all in and gain these experiences first hand, will see the power in these things and know what it is I'm sharing.

I feel that sometimes I can't properly put into words exactly how and why these things work, and I can see why others would be skeptical, especially if they base all of their decisions on scientific studies. This can obviously be a source of frustration to me, because I want to be as clear as I possibly can.



His name is John Keifer, right? Lol, to discredit "science" but then believe a guy whose background is based entirely around science John Keifer exercise scientist and physicist running a single page site selling an e-book Carb Nite (http://carbnite.com/)

I agree, I do think a lot of studies in the weight loss, bodybuilding, cosmetic etc. industry are very sketchy as many of them are sponsored by a major supplement company themselves that is why I always say the older the study better. But keto studies go all the way back to early 1900's, for carb backloading you would at least think there would be some sort of just generalized study doesn't even have to be that complex, I just couldn't find anything.

Lol...science is good and I do agree that we shouldn't base ALL of it around everything, but again if we didn't even use some science and studies we would be back to the "broscience" stuff, which is an example of the bodybuilding.com forum, if you have been there lol. So if you just completely ignore studies and then someone say take this stuff you will get hyooge bro!

FYI, you know your favorite product "Androhard" and the former owner/friend of the company that created it called Primordial Performance, Eric, was ALL based around science. Eric always had studies for everything and all of his products (he based androhard around the primo/DHT study) which is how he developed many of his products, he even posted many of the studies in his product description. It is the type of study that matters, if the study is recent and sponsored by a supplement company (or drug company like Merk in regards to propecia, which you mentioned above) etc. yeah for sure it definitely plays a factor. Eric didn't do that either he came across some good studies and of course was one of the first bringing legit "pro hormones" to market.

OK, so now onto the charcoal stuff lol, which is natural by the way, just like herbs and it has been used for centuries just like fasting.

"Lol....there is that science mind at work again. Forrest for the trees man, forrest for the trees. Taking charcoal would make sense during an acute toxicity issue. But again...This does not, and cannot, nor ever will, compare to the power of an extended fast."

It helps during acute toxicity and that is what it was studied for, but it helps even for chronic issues. It can reduce endotoxin big time and lower serotonin (90%+ of serotonin is in the gut) and cross the blood brain barrier.


"These studies are done on acute toxicity issues. That is not the case with most fasters. If you're experiencing acute toxicity then you better go the hospital, not a fasting center. Fasting and the administration of charcoal are two completely different things for two completely different experiences."


The reason I mentioned acute toxicity is b/c you said the benefits of fasting was that it could for removing pharma drugs, BPA's, xenosestrogens etc. all which charcoal can do too, so I wouldn't say they are not completely different, but charcoal does much more than just detox.

Here is also a study showing charcoal significantly removing BPA's.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac503814j



"When you fast, you detox every cell of all cellular waste. Unless you're experiencing an acute toxic over load due to the things listed in the study, the charcoal isn't going to do ANYTHING in this regards."

Yes, right, but you also starving and stress the cell of metabolic energy. Inflammatory markers greatly drop in a fasted state, but that is not necessarily a good thing. From the extreme rise in cortisol, the immune system is greatly suppressed so inflammatory markers would appear much lower. Again, if you were starving a known parasite in your body or fungus, fasting could be an option, but there are also many other natural alternative options for that too (aspirin for example). For certain infections, fasting has the potential to make them worse, due to the severe immune suppression and lack of nutrients and slowed metabolism (low thyroid = low body temp = breeding ground for new potential bacteria). High cellular oxygen environment burns up any bacteria and prevents any new from pathogens from taking hold (bacteria cant live in high heat environment) along with keeping viruses suppressed. They can't live in it, same concept how your body works when battling an infection and you get a "fever".


"It's not going to remove toxins that are stored at the cellular level"

Actually that is exactly how it works, cascara even works MORE on a cellular level.

"It's not going to remove ANYTHING stored in fat cells. These cells are broken down during the fast for energy and the waste inside them is then processed out."


Yes, they are broken down because the body is turning into a severely catabolic state. Your body is literally doing anything it can to survive.


"it's not going to remove YEARS of built up cellular metabolic waste."


We don't know that though, that is pure speculation. Same concept goes for circulating hormones vs tissue level saturation, one could have low circulating estrogen vs high estrogen tissue level concentration, which would not show up on a blood test. Again, cellular metabolic waste from what? If your metabolism is working properly the build up of cellular metabolic waste would be cleared out.


"I was going to say, here again is where a study falls short because it doesn't focus on the WHOLE picture. But the study isn't even comparing the correct thing. It's not 100% about detox. While that is a huge part of it, it's also about resting your digestion."


"resting your digestion", let's be honest, what exactly does that even mean lol? What are you resting and from what? Digestive issues are an underlying cause of something else, either an infection and/or slowed metabolism. Hydrochloric acid in the stomach is stimulated by high oxygen consumption to the cell, which again would go back to proper cellular function and at the very base of that would be a proper functioning thyroid. That is the reason why coffee helps with digestion. Caffeine acts exactly like active thyroid in the body and also contains magnesium and niacin, all precursors to HCL in stomach for proper digestion.

"By stopping the digestive engine, you signal to your body that it can really dig out the deep stuff now....the stuff that charcoal wouldn't do anything for and wouldn't come close to touching. The stuff that is stored deep, deep within the tissues."


The signal to your body is a stress response, the reason it can dig deep stuff out is it because it has no choice but to start using your body's own tissue for energy in order to survive since glycogen reserves and are depleted and no external source of nutrients are no longer being consumed. And charcoal actually has great penetration, that is my point when I referenced it can significantly cross the blood brainer, this was at least shown in studies so we have some sort of basis. Fasting we really don't know how "deep" it can get, which may take even longer during a fast which could be doing even more damage than good at that point.

"Charcoal is no match for an extended fast. None. It doesn't even compare on the same level.
If you were to undertake one yourself, you would EASILY see this. Easily."


My longest fast was 3 days and it was a water fast, although I did feel temporarily better I also felt worse at the same time. My experience shouldn't deter anyone from trying, just like you said everyone is different. BUT, I was also in deep ketosis for a many months and I did feel better, but I was running on stress hormones with a low body temperature so not ideal. I feel the same way I did in deep ketosis now running back on glucose again just from changing my diet around and focusing on meats, gelatin and fruits, milk.

I'm not saying fasting doesn't work for a certain condition, but at the same time there are also alternatives to take a look at.

In terms of studies, if we just ignored the studies and just tried new things and went by how we "feel" we might as well say prolactin is healthy, serotonin is healthy etc. since they can make you "feel" good, but that doesn't mean it is healthy. You still need some science as a backbone to understand the basic mechanics of what is going. I'm not say all studies are good, I actually hate many of the studies put out by the mainstream bodybuilding and supplement industry.

Lost Empire Herb's entire page for each herb has references and studies for all the claims they make. Should we just ignore those too since they were "running an experiment based on variable inputs and NOT on themselves"? Should we ignore the study that DHT stimulates its own synthesis a positive feedback mechanism which is one of the main reasons that prohormones work better than synthetic AAS? Should we just ignore all of the studies showing finasteride showing a massive decrease in allopreg along with many other protective steroids since the authors of the study probably had their own "agenda" and it wasn't on themselves? Where do we draw the line? I think there just needs to be balance, you can't look at all science and make a conclusion, you also can just ignore the science and make a conclusion.

Oh and I do use activated charcoal personally a few times per week.

Swill
03-04-2017, 07:41 AM
I think both you guys are saying similar things but from a different angle, and your beliefs are not as different as it comes across.

We all know studies can be very helpful and conductive to progress, and you've both also acknowledged that any studies can have hidden agendas, be dangerous and also a means to demonstrate said agendas (dollar dollar bill, y'all). Fasting, and herbs for that matter, have not been researched to anywhere near the same extent as pharmaceuticals and the like simply because its industry driven and you can't patent water or various natural plants and substances.

Whilst it interests me, I dont follow and fully know the intricacies on the workings on things health/fitness/optimization on an academic level like you guys. But I can add my two cents on fasting having visited a facility and undergone a two week medically supervised water fast and re-feed. The benefit of 'resting your digestion' from how I understand it is that your body uses up a mass of its energy (I think over 60%) on the digestion of food, and this energy is then used on the detox/healing process... on cell repair rather than simply building new cells that is prioritised in our 'normal' state.

I can tell you that when I was deep into the fast, whilst understandably not being able to physically do a great deal of moving around etc. I felt a mental alertness, sharpness and clarity that I haven't experienced before or since. I was also waking up on maybe 4 hours sleep being totally refreshed and alert, almost like aside from not being able to exert myself physically I was operating on a more tuned level. I can also say that during my time at the facility I spoke with a person who had actually reversed full blown type 2 diabetes and people who were recovering from similar and it was astounding. I can also say that after my re-feed and I was back up and running 'in normality' I was certainly operating on a different level to what I had pre-fast... It was remarkable how resilient I felt, my display pic on here is only a couple of months post fast (during which I hit 140lbs).

I can appreciate there can be certain negative impacts to undertaking something as taxing as a water fast, but for me the pro's outweighed the cons and I saw some incredible improvements in other peoples health through my experience too, although the most amazing and stark improvements were from people 'coming back from the brink' rather than striving towards peak performance.

I can't justify the intricacies of why/how things work as I dont have the knowledge to the extent of you guys... but it seems whilst you do have some opposing views (which is healthy, its what constructive discussion is all about), you both aren't all that far apart minutae aside.

Cdsnuts
03-04-2017, 09:23 AM
His name is John Keifer, right? Lol, to discredit "science" but then believe a guy whose background is based entirely around science John Keifer exercise scientist and physicist running a single page site selling an e-book Carb Nite (http://carbnite.com/)

I agree, I do think a lot of studies in the weight loss, bodybuilding, cosmetic etc. industry are very sketchy as many of them are sponsored by a major supplement company themselves that is why I always say the older the study better. But keto studies go all the way back to early 1900's, for carb backloading you would at least think there would be some sort of just generalized study doesn't even have to be that complex, I just couldn't find anything.

Lol...science is good and I do agree that we shouldn't base ALL of it around everything, but again if we didn't even use some science and studies we would be back to the "broscience" stuff, which is an example of the bodybuilding.com forum, if you have been there lol. So if you just completely ignore studies and then someone say take this stuff you will get hyooge bro!

FYI, you know your favorite product "Androhard" and the former owner/friend of the company that created it called Primordial Performance, Eric, was ALL based around science. Eric always had studies for everything and all of his products (he based androhard around the primo/DHT study) which is how he developed many of his products, he even posted many of the studies in his product description. It is the type of study that matters, if the study is recent and sponsored by a supplement company (or drug company like Merk in regards to propecia, which you mentioned above) etc. yeah for sure it definitely plays a factor. Eric didn't do that either he came across some good studies and of course was one of the first bringing legit "pro hormones" to market.

OK, so now onto the charcoal stuff lol, which is natural by the way, just like herbs and it has been used for centuries just like fasting.

"Lol....there is that science mind at work again. Forrest for the trees man, forrest for the trees. Taking charcoal would make sense during an acute toxicity issue. But again...This does not, and cannot, nor ever will, compare to the power of an extended fast."

It helps during acute toxicity and that is what it was studied for, but it helps even for chronic issues. It can reduce endotoxin big time and lower serotonin (90%+ of serotonin is in the gut) and cross the blood brain barrier.


"These studies are done on acute toxicity issues. That is not the case with most fasters. If you're experiencing acute toxicity then you better go the hospital, not a fasting center. Fasting and the administration of charcoal are two completely different things for two completely different experiences."


The reason I mentioned acute toxicity is b/c you said the benefits of fasting was that it could for removing pharma drugs, BPA's, xenosestrogens etc. all which charcoal can do too, so I wouldn't say they are not completely different, but charcoal does much more than just detox.

Here is also a study showing charcoal significantly removing BPA's.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac503814j



"When you fast, you detox every cell of all cellular waste. Unless you're experiencing an acute toxic over load due to the things listed in the study, the charcoal isn't going to do ANYTHING in this regards."

Yes, right, but you also starving and stress the cell of metabolic energy. Inflammatory markers greatly drop in a fasted state, but that is not necessarily a good thing. From the extreme rise in cortisol, the immune system is greatly suppressed so inflammatory markers would appear much lower. Again, if you were starving a known parasite in your body or fungus, fasting could be an option, but there are also many other natural alternative options for that too (aspirin for example). For certain infections, fasting has the potential to make them worse, due to the severe immune suppression and lack of nutrients and slowed metabolism (low thyroid = low body temp = breeding ground for new potential bacteria). High cellular oxygen environment burns up any bacteria and prevents any new from pathogens from taking hold (bacteria cant live in high heat environment) along with keeping viruses suppressed. They can't live in it, same concept how your body works when battling an infection and you get a "fever".


"It's not going to remove toxins that are stored at the cellular level"

Actually that is exactly how it works, cascara even works MORE on a cellular level.

"It's not going to remove ANYTHING stored in fat cells. These cells are broken down during the fast for energy and the waste inside them is then processed out."


Yes, they are broken down because the body is turning into a severely catabolic state. Your body is literally doing anything it can to survive.


"it's not going to remove YEARS of built up cellular metabolic waste."


We don't know that though, that is pure speculation. Same concept goes for circulating hormones vs tissue level saturation, one could have low circulating estrogen vs high estrogen tissue level concentration, which would not show up on a blood test. Again, cellular metabolic waste from what? If your metabolism is working properly the build up of cellular metabolic waste would be cleared out.


"I was going to say, here again is where a study falls short because it doesn't focus on the WHOLE picture. But the study isn't even comparing the correct thing. It's not 100% about detox. While that is a huge part of it, it's also about resting your digestion."


"resting your digestion", let's be honest, what exactly does that even mean lol? What are you resting and from what? Digestive issues are an underlying cause of something else, either an infection and/or slowed metabolism. Hydrochloric acid in the stomach is stimulated by high oxygen consumption to the cell, which again would go back to proper cellular function and at the very base of that would be a proper functioning thyroid. That is the reason why coffee helps with digestion. Caffeine acts exactly like active thyroid in the body and also contains magnesium and niacin, all precursors to HCL in stomach for proper digestion.

"By stopping the digestive engine, you signal to your body that it can really dig out the deep stuff now....the stuff that charcoal wouldn't do anything for and wouldn't come close to touching. The stuff that is stored deep, deep within the tissues."


The signal to your body is a stress response, the reason it can dig deep stuff out is it because it has no choice but to start using your body's own tissue for energy in order to survive since glycogen reserves and are depleted and no external source of nutrients are no longer being consumed. And charcoal actually has great penetration, that is my point when I referenced it can significantly cross the blood brainer, this was at least shown in studies so we have some sort of basis. Fasting we really don't know how "deep" it can get, which may take even longer during a fast which could be doing even more damage than good at that point.

"Charcoal is no match for an extended fast. None. It doesn't even compare on the same level.
If you were to undertake one yourself, you would EASILY see this. Easily."


My longest fast was 3 days and it was a water fast, although I did feel temporarily better I also felt worse at the same time. My experience shouldn't deter anyone from trying, just like you said everyone is different. BUT, I was also in deep ketosis for a many months and I did feel better, but I was running on stress hormones with a low body temperature so not ideal. I feel the same way I did in deep ketosis now running back on glucose again just from changing my diet around and focusing on meats, gelatin and fruits, milk.

I'm not saying fasting doesn't work for a certain condition, but at the same time there are also alternatives to take a look at.

In terms of studies, if we just ignored the studies and just tried new things and went by how we "feel" we might as well say prolactin is healthy, serotonin is healthy etc. since they can make you "feel" good, but that doesn't mean it is healthy. You still need some science as a backbone to understand the basic mechanics of what is going. I'm not say all studies are good, I actually hate many of the studies put out by the mainstream bodybuilding and supplement industry.

Lost Empire Herb's entire page for each herb has references and studies for all the claims they make. Should we just ignore those too since they were "running an experiment based on variable inputs and NOT on themselves"? Should we ignore the study that DHT stimulates its own synthesis a positive feedback mechanism which is one of the main reasons that prohormones work better than synthetic AAS? Should we just ignore all of the studies showing finasteride showing a massive decrease in allopreg along with many other protective steroids since the authors of the study probably had their own "agenda" and it wasn't on themselves? Where do we draw the line? I think there just needs to be balance, you can't look at all science and make a conclusion, you also can just ignore the science and make a conclusion.

Oh and I do use activated charcoal personally a few times per week.

Lol...I'm not saying science is bad....that would be ridiculous. Nor am I discrediting science. The principles of fasting are based on Natural Science.

Just because you can't find studies on something doesn't mean it's not scientifically valid.

And the balance you talk about has to be from personal experience.

My previous comments stand. I'm just going to sound like a broken record.

I have no interest in spending anymore time on this, as I said, I'm not here to prove my point. So I'm not going to go tit for tat with you.

I've shared links with you in regards to information on extended fasting, but you choose to not focus on those.

Again, you are not going to get the same results taking charcoal then you would undertaking an extended fast. Thinking it is the same is foolish.

Try something longer then a three day fast and you'll see what I mean....or don't. Lol. It doesn't matter to me and doesn't change anything. But it's no wonder you felt like shit stopping the fast after only three days. This isn't a surprise at all.

If you like, I can put you in touch with the Doctors that study fasting and they will most definitely be able to settle your anxieties about extended fasting. They may even enjoy entertaining the concerns you mentioned above. There is an answer to each one of them, and I'm tempted to go back at it, but I really don't want to get sucked into another long response.

Let me know if you would like that, and I'll make it happen.

Cdsnuts
03-04-2017, 09:32 AM
I think both you guys are saying similar things but from a different angle, and your beliefs are not as different as it comes across.

We all know studies can be very helpful and conductive to progress, and you've both also acknowledged that any studies can have hidden agendas, be dangerous and also a means to demonstrate said agendas (dollar dollar bill, y'all). Fasting, and herbs for that matter, have not been researched to anywhere near the same extent as pharmaceuticals and the like simply because its industry driven and you can't patent water or various natural plants and substances.

Whilst it interests me, I dont follow and fully know the intricacies on the workings on things health/fitness/optimization on an academic level like you guys. But I can add my two cents on fasting having visited a facility and undergone a two week medically supervised water fast and re-feed. The benefit of 'resting your digestion' from how I understand it is that your body uses up a mass of its energy (I think over 60%) on the digestion of food, and this energy is then used on the detox/healing process... on cell repair rather than simply building new cells that is prioritised in our 'normal' state.

I can tell you that when I was deep into the fast, whilst understandably not being able to physically do a great deal of moving around etc. I felt a mental alertness, sharpness and clarity that I haven't experienced before or since. I was also waking up on maybe 4 hours sleep being totally refreshed and alert, almost like aside from not being able to exert myself physically I was operating on a more tuned level. I can also say that during my time at the facility I spoke with a person who had actually reversed full blown type 2 diabetes and people who were recovering from similar and it was astounding. I can also say that after my re-feed and I was back up and running 'in normality' I was certainly operating on a different level to what I had pre-fast... It was remarkable how resilient I felt, my display pic on here is only a couple of months post fast (during which I hit 140lbs).

I can appreciate there can be certain negative impacts to undertaking something as taxing as a water fast, but for me the pro's outweighed the cons and I saw some incredible improvements in other peoples health through my experience too, although the most amazing and stark improvements were from people 'coming back from the brink' rather than striving towards peak performance.

I can't justify the intricacies of why/how things work as I dont have the knowledge to the extent of you guys... but it seems whilst you do have some opposing views (which is healthy, its what constructive discussion is all about), you both aren't all that far apart minutae aside.

Tubz is going to ask to see studies to back up your claims...otherwise you were just delerious.....lol. I'm busting your balls Tubz.

That is exactly what "resting your digestion" means. Exactly what it says ...

That has been my experience and the experience of most other extended fasters. Based on studies though, we should be feeling like death.

In my experience when you get into the fast away's you feel what is happening is healthy, and supposed to happen. There is no nervousness or anxiety or stress. You can feel the changes happening and there is a sereness about it.

These are things that only someone with fasting experience will understand.

TubZy
03-04-2017, 01:15 PM
Tubz is going to ask to see studies to back up your claims...otherwise you were just delerious.....lol. I'm busting your balls Tubz.

That is exactly what "resting your digestion" means. Exactly what it says ...

That has been my experience and the experience of most other extended fasters. Based on studies though, we should be feeling like death.

In my experience when you get into the fast away's you feel what is happening is healthy, and supposed to happen. There is no nervousness or anxiety or stress. You can feel the changes happening and there is a sereness about it.

These are things that only someone with fasting experience will understand.

Correct, I do like to find out the reason why something either makes me feel good or bad and try to figure out why, that is why science can help. It is good to know what is happening in your body. In the sense of fasting, I was just saying it's a proven science whether you believe or not that cortisol will dramatically rise when there is no glycogen reserves in the body. That is just how the body works and is a survival mechanism. Excess cortisol is proven whether you agree with it or not to be the root cause of many pathological diseases. This is actually the primary reason why the herbs work so well due to their adaptogen properties of modulating cortisol, which can increase testosterone, increase thyroid (ashwaganda), lower estrogen, increase DHT, increase resistance to stress etc.

For example, pine pollen contains androsterone and androsterone was the active ingredient in R andro/androhard. I just like to figure out why certain things do what they do not only for specific instances but for further innovation and expansion.

I have no reason to fast anymore at all so it doesn't appeal to me, I know you work from home so fasting isn't that hard for you but when you have to deal with people on a daily basis in person it sucks lol. I know it sounds like I'm really hardcore against fasting, I'm not lol. Like I said I think there could be benefits, but from my personal experience it did not work well, which is what led me to looking into the science behind fasting in the first place, because I wanted to understand exactly what was going on.

Anyways, I promise I will shut up now, otherwise this will go on too long lol.

Cdsnuts
03-04-2017, 01:36 PM
Correct, I do like to find out the reason why something either makes me feel good or bad and try to figure out why, that is why science can help. It is good to know what is happening in your body. In the sense of fasting, I was just saying it's a proven science whether you believe or not that cortisol will dramatically rise when there is no glycogen reserves in the body. That is just how the body works and is a survival mechanism. Excess cortisol is proven whether you agree with it or not to be the route cause of many pathological diseases. This is actually the primary reason why the herbs work so well due to their adaptogen properties of modulating cortisol, which can increase testosterone, increase thyroid (ashwaganda), lower estrogen, increase DHT, increase resistance to stress etc.

For example, pine pollen contains androsterone and androsterone was the active ingredient in R andro/androhard. I just like to figure out why certain things do what they do not only for specific instances but for further innovation and expansion.

I have no reason to fast anymore at all so it doesn't appeal to me, I know you work from home so fasting isn't that hard for you but when you have to deal with people on a daily basis it sucks lol. I know it sounds like I'm really hardcore against fasting, I'm not lol. Like I said I think there could be benefits, but from my personal experience it did not work well, which is what led me to looking into the science behind fasting in the first place, because I wanted to understand exactly what was going on.

Anyways, I promise I will shut up now, otherwise this will go on too long lol.

So then we come full circle. Like I've already stated, the benefits gained from a fast FAR outweigh any TEMPORARY increase in cortisol. This temporary increase during the fast isn't going to cause any pathological conditions.....lol. Otherwise people wouldn't be fasting therapeutically!

When you get into your fast, you actually feel nice and calm. You don't feel stressed whatsoever.

I dont think youre getting it man...but I think it's because you're overlooking what I'm recommending. it's no wonder why "it didn't work for you" because you didn't do it correctly!! This is like when people will only do certain aspects of the protocol, bail on it after a few weeks and then say it didn't work....lol. Of course it's not going to work when you don't work it correctly.

I always recommend fasting at a water fasting center run by doctors. You don't undertake this going through your normal life...it's impossible. You can't successfully water fast going through the motions of day to day routine! THAT will cause an increase in cortisol..... You have to be fully rested with absolutely nothing to do. You literally, lay around and rest....that's it. That was your first mistake.

Secondly, as I've already mentioned prior, you didn't go long enough to feel the benefits. Fasting for only 3 days IS going to make you feel like shit. This is no surprise. Especially if you were just doing the things you normal do in a day. After only three days your body is just getting into it. No where near enough time to make a correct assessment

I understand you have no need for one anymore, thankfully, but if you were to actually do it right, as it's recommended, you would have gotten benefits like everyone does. THIS is why fasting has to be done at a center with people who understand the process. You are literally told to not move around more then you have to. This lack of activity minimizes calorie expenditure keeping cortisol spikes as low as they can be.

I've never felt the effects of cortisol while fasting. No anxiousness, nervousness, etc. Just the opposite as a matter of fact. just as Swill had mentioned. Immensely clear headed. Completely and utterly calm. Fully centered and focused. This doesn't' sound like someone running high cortisol, does it?

Given what you tried to do, it makes sense why you have the opinion you do....lol. At least now we're coming to a point of understanding here....

Maxout777
03-04-2017, 05:52 PM
Wow, I mean that escalated quickly!

Cdsnuts
03-04-2017, 06:24 PM
Wow, I mean that escalated quickly!
Too much? Lol

If so no disrespect at all from any of it

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Maxout777
03-04-2017, 06:29 PM
Too much? Lol

If so no disrespect at all from any of it

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I just love that quote from Anchorman and use it any appropriate chance I get lol.

PeterA
04-25-2017, 03:53 PM
I have a question about Carb Backloading - from what time is it okay to eat carbs??

Cdsnuts
04-25-2017, 03:57 PM
I have a question about Carb Backloading - from what time is it okay to eat carbs??

Carb Backloading | (http://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/diet/carb-backloading/)

PeterA
04-26-2017, 05:54 AM
I know CD.
But it says "PM" time and "PM" is after 12:00? So is it okay to eat carbs after 12:00?

Cdsnuts
04-26-2017, 07:25 AM
I know CD.
But it says "PM" time and "PM" is after 12:00? So is it okay to eat carbs after 12:00?

Apparently you don't know. If you actually read the page, all the information you need is there. All of it.

PeterA
04-26-2017, 04:48 PM
I tried...
But it says "PM"?? Thats a broad concept?

Cdsnuts
04-26-2017, 04:51 PM
I tried...
But it says "PM"?? Thats a broad concept?
"So how do you know when to eat carbs? Have you trained with heavy weights that day?

Yes…

Is it dark out?

Yes…

If you’ve said yes to BOTH of those questions, eat until your hearts content"

Hmmmmm.....doesn't seem too broad to me.....

Unfortunately, it seems you want to be spoon fed. That type mindset never makes it too far, fyi.

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PeterA
04-27-2017, 07:19 AM
Yes but its broad because in Denmark fx - right now and the next 3 months its first dark around between 21:00-22:00(9PM-10PM).
And is it possible to perform 100% without carbs before workout??

Cdsnuts
04-27-2017, 08:04 AM
Yes but its broad because in Denmark fx - right now and the next 3 months its first dark around between 21:00-22:00(9PM-10PM).
And is it possible to perform 100% without carbs before workout??

Lol....well you certainly have a point there Peter.

Typically you don't want to eat carbs until after you've worked out, and usually not starting until 5:00 pm or so onward.

And yes....I ALWAYS work out fasted now. There is no comparison. You just have to get used to it. It's a misnomer that when you eat before a work out that you're actually using that meal for energy....you're not. You're using energy that has been stored from days before.

I get completely sluggish If I eat before working out now.

PeterA
04-27-2017, 09:25 AM
Okay thanks!
Is it possible to gain body weight while carb backloading?
But how can it be a misnomer?? All professionel sport stars get carbs like 3-4 hours before a match for example.

Cdsnuts
04-27-2017, 01:06 PM
Okay thanks!
Is it possible to gain body weight while carb backloading?
But how can it be a misnomer?? All professionel sport stars get carbs like 3-4 hours before a match for example.

Carb backloading increases muscle mass while simultaneously reducing body fat. So yes.

PeterA
04-27-2017, 04:02 PM
Okay i will start carb backloading!!
And my other question bro?
You are a big help!

Maxout777
04-27-2017, 04:06 PM
Okay i will start carb backloading!!
And my other question bro?
You are a big help!
What professional athletes do has nothing at all to do with you recovering from PFS. It's worked for many people here as a diet including myself, what other proof do you need?

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Cdsnuts
04-27-2017, 04:22 PM
Okay i will start carb backloading!!
And my other question bro?
You are a big help!
If you want to know the specifics that are not included in the site, may I suggest purchasing the backloading manual which has all of the scientific research and studies to back up the program.



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PeterA
04-28-2017, 02:58 AM
I trust you.
But to say that it is a misnomer, that's not true at all.

Cdsnuts
04-28-2017, 05:18 AM
I trust you.
But to say that it is a misnomer, that's not true at all.

You're right. I'm lying. I'm lying about everything. I still have PFS. I eat pasta for every meal and mainline gluten. This whole thing was just one big cruel joke. You guys are all fucked.

PeterA
04-28-2017, 09:07 AM
Come on??
Why do you react like that?^
I just mean how can you say that it is a misnomer? I have never in my whole life heard about that.
But its sounds for me like EVERYTHING you say, thats facts.
I dont wanna start a discussion - just a debat.
My intention is to be smarter about this theme. And know why it is that way.

Cdsnuts
04-28-2017, 09:12 AM
Come on??
Why do you react like that?^
I just mean how can you say that it is a misnomer? I have never in my whole life heard about that.
But its sounds for me like EVERYTHING you say, thats facts.
I dont wanna start a discussion - just a debat.
My intention is to be smarter about this theme. And know why it is that way.

You probably haven't heard about a lot of aspects of the protocol before. That doesn't mean anything. And the last thing I want to do is start a debate. Those days are over for me as I left them over at Propecia help.

Just do some research based upon my comments and you'll find the info you need.

I'm here to help guide people through this regimen, not debate about the aspects of it. You can do that with someone else if you choose.

You know what is recommended based upon the experiences of others, and my experience. If you don't want to do it, don't.

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DrivenToRecover
04-28-2017, 12:51 PM
You probably haven't heard about a lot of aspects of the protocol before. That doesn't mean anything. And the last thing I want to do is start a debate. Those days are over for me as I left them over at Propecia help.

Just do some research based upon my comments and you'll find the info you need.

I'm here to help guide people through this regimen, not debate about the aspects of it. You can do that with someone else if you choose.

You know what is recommended based upon the experiences of others, and my experience. If you don't want to do it, don't.

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If I may offer some input...it is hard to dive into something 100% with just faith. From someone that posts simple text on the internet no less.

The logic & knowledge behind all of your words is solid, but emotion motivates people, not logic.

I know for me, The more I personally research & understand the science behind everything you recommend the more it motivates me. But I think there's a way to fast track the motivation....

I know we talked about this a while back, but I think people would definitely buy into your stuff more quickly 100% if you posted videos passionately sharing each part of the protocol.

Words on a screen can only motivate you so much. Watching a video or speech in person is a different ballgame my friend


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Cdsnuts
04-28-2017, 01:42 PM
If I may offer some input...it is hard to dive into something 100% with just faith. From someone that posts simple text on the internet no less.

The logic & knowledge behind all of your words is solid, but emotion motivates people, not logic.

I know for me, The more I personally research & understand the science behind everything you recommend the more it motivates me. But I think there's a way to fast track the motivation....

I know we talked about this a while back, but I think people would definitely buy into your stuff more quickly 100% if you posted videos passionately sharing each part of the protocol.

Words on a screen can only motivate you so much. Watching a video or speech in person is a different ballgame my friend


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I bet you're right, to a point, and videos are definitely going to be part of that site. But then there are a large percentage of people that do just follow it based on those words and they have success. These are the people I want to work with because it's less hassle AND they are the ones that are going to get results the fastest. This is what makes me happy.

You see, I'm not here to motivate anyone to do anything. I don't care much that they can't get themselves to do what is necessary. That has to come from within. I had it within myself as PFS was ALL the motivation I needed to get well, as it is for MOST people. When I was blindly experimenting with these things so many years ago, I didn't know if doing these long juice feasts or long ass water fasts were going to do anything positive. All I had was the research that was out there on other health issues. What did I have to lose at that point? NOTHING. If I wouldn't have just jumped in with blind faith, I would have never gotten anywhere. I have given people the frame work to follow in order to get what they want, which is their lives back.

The one thing that you guys can't see are the incessant PM's and messages asking to basically be spoon fed, or to prove what I'm saying is in fact true.( That one is the most obnoxious kind) The truth is, I don't have any desire to prove anything. People can take it, run with it, and heal, or they can nit pick everything and leave parts out and do what they want rather then following the path that has been laid before them. Doesn't matter to me at all. It's THEIR lives. That being said, I will always make myself available to anyone who show's promise and has what it takes to get the job done. That unfortunately, isn't everyone.

Again, the site is going to be geared towards NON PFS guys. It's a huge market, way less hassle and there are WAY more of them. Just because it happens to be the best way to get out of the PFS induced hell doesn't mean I'm going to pigeon hole myself into just working with that group. I've been doing this long enough that I can tell within a couple messages what somebodies results are going to be. One of the best parts about doing this is I can choose who I want to work with. I want to work with people that have skin in the game, not someone who just wants to be fed information on a silver platter before putting in any effort.

At this point in time, there is enough information out there for other PFSer's to follow based on the experiences of others so they don't have to take my word for it.

If they really want it, they'll get it. They just have to want it enough.

PeterA
05-04-2017, 05:23 AM
Do some of you guys have a good paleo and carb backloading diet plan for gaining weight?

K8668B
05-10-2017, 11:54 AM
Juice feasting/fasting for 7 days was the greatest thing i ever did. It felt so amazing. I wouldve and couldve easily went for 14 days, instead of 7, if it werent for my stupid ass job. (which i like, but im pissed because of the inconvenience). You gotta go with your gut instincts. Sometimes all the bullshit online, and the gurus... you just gotta tell them to go fuck themselves. Aint nobody got time for that bullshit! If you have PFS, then do the protocol. They're not the ones with PFS. Only you know what works for you.

And carb backloading... i disagree.... i think a person with a higher metabolism, like myself, would benefit even more from carb backloading. I think its a great idea.