How to sleep deeper when your brain is now programed with low sleep intensity

[Aflac]

CD just wondering if you would share any specifics on your sleep improvements over time?

You mention you had problems with light sleep on TMO. What turned your sleep around specifically? Or when did you notice any kind of quality or consistency or depth return? I have tried magnesium and glycine (via gelatin and collagen). Maybe a small improvement in sleep after zinc and magnesium, but not much.

I plan to try the herbs, 7 to 10 is probably what I could afford to buy to start; did any specifically improve sleep more than others, otherwise I’ll probably look through them and just pick 7 I think seem best to start with.

I miss being able to exercise hard and sleep deeply; it made me feel strong in body and spirit; it made me feel human.

I put my question first so you wouldn’t have to read my background if you didn’t want to…essentially took a small amount about a year ago, it super f**ked up my brain and then my body has morphed into something else / generally gone down hill over the past year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Background

Took one dose of finasteride. Didn’t sleep at all that night. And my sleep was disturbed for a few days to a week. After this I returned to fairly normal, if anything I felt hormones raging. (Although maybe my sleep pattern was shifting more than normal but nothing I was concerned about)

Due to the initial sleep trouble I never took a second dose of finasteride (I took proscar/cheaper pill, not propecia).

Two months later in the middle I woke up wide-eyed and physically uncomfortable for no reason. Something happened to my brain chemistry at that moment in time - it felt like someone plugged me into an electrical outlet. My life and my sleep have not been the same since. This happened in March 2016.

Like healthy people I used to wake up in the morning feeling rested then get tired throughout the day and sleepy at night then sleep 7 to 9 hours. But since that night in March 2016 I don’t really transition properly into sleep. In fact I hardly ever feel very sleepy. I do lose consciousness for a period of time most nights, but I wouldn’t call it real sleep and it is fragmented and short. Strangely if you were to wake me up in the middle of the night at any time, after 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours etc. there is no grogginess or sleep inertia. Once I regain consciousness I am immediately alert and awake. I have no real drive/pressure to sleep like I used to.

Alcohol has no effect, no buzz. I can’t maintain my bicep contraction when I go to make a muscle it goes soft quickly, like it can’t maintain the tone. I’ve also developed a smooth strange skin texture and appetite and thirst changes (blunted most days). I’ve stopped masturbating as my organisms were less intense or sometimes absent or made my head feel weird (which was mortifying at first).

Immediately I could not tolerate weight lifting. Cardio felt okay at first, I think because I was fit when this happened to me. But slowly I cannot tolerate the same level of cardio. And while I never sleep well, if I wear myself out through exercise (can only do cardio) my sleep onset is delayed and even more fragmented the night following the exercise.

I don’t feel too much anxiety anymore, feels more like my body has found a new homeostasis, but one I don’t want. I was very depressed about this as my body was undergoing these negative changes over the past year. However I feel I’ve hit the bottom; I’m in pretty bad shape, BUT I don’t seem to be getting any worse. It’s frightening to feel so fundamentally different - waking up from sleep at any point in the night and not feeling sleepy or groggy in anyway.

In the back of my mind I will never lose hope for a full recovery, that's just how I operate; but with such severe changes to the way I operate, part of me understands I may not completely revert back to normal. I’d just like to get back to feeling as good as I can.

Even if my body is not working like it used to, I am still working well enough to be alive and there are things I enjoy other than fitness, exercise, and sleep. (music / reading / movies / lots of other good stuff). Got to make that lemonade. Somebody somewhere is worse off, or doing more with less, no doubt. Just hard to keep that in the front of the mind 24 /7 or when symptoms are bad. Thank you for reading if you made it through all that.

[Maxout777]

Welcome.

I can't speak for CD, but my sleep improved immensely after I finished my juice feast, and then after using glycine religiously for months, I started to sleep just fine with no assistance whatsoever. I wouldn't give up on glycine just because it didn't work instantly.....seems to, like everything else promoted here, have a cumulative effect in your system.

[Aflac]

Thanks for the reply. I do want to try the glycine again for an extended period. Did you use the collagen/gelatin to get glycine or buy the straight glycine? Also would you mind sharing the dose/brand? I'm always wondering which brand is actually legitimate when I'm searching for a supplement. Thanks in advance

[Maxout777]

Just regular glycine powder from Now Foods on Amazon is what I've always used. 5-6g nightly. Comes in a tub that's a pound of powder.

[Cdsnuts]

CD just wondering if you would share any specifics on your sleep improvements over time?

You mention you had problems with light sleep on TMO. What turned your sleep around specifically? Or when did you notice any kind of quality or consistency or depth return? I have tried magnesium and glycine (via gelatin and collagen). Maybe a small improvement in sleep after zinc and magnesium, but not much.

I plan to try the herbs, 7 to 10 is probably what I could afford to buy to start; did any specifically improve sleep more than others, otherwise I’ll probably look through them and just pick 7 I think seem best to start with.

I miss being able to exercise hard and sleep deeply; it made me feel strong in body and spirit; it made me feel human.

I put my question first so you wouldn’t have to read my background if you didn’t want to…essentially took a small amount about a year ago, it super f**ked up my brain and then my body has morphed into something else / generally gone down hill over the past year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Background

Took one dose of finasteride. Didn’t sleep at all that night. And my sleep was disturbed for a few days to a week. After this I returned to fairly normal, if anything I felt hormones raging. (Although maybe my sleep pattern was shifting more than normal but nothing I was concerned about)

Due to the initial sleep trouble I never took a second dose of finasteride (I took proscar/cheaper pill, not propecia).

Two months later in the middle I woke up wide-eyed and physically uncomfortable for no reason. Something happened to my brain chemistry at that moment in time - it felt like someone plugged me into an electrical outlet. My life and my sleep have not been the same since. This happened in March 2016.

Like healthy people I used to wake up in the morning feeling rested then get tired throughout the day and sleepy at night then sleep 7 to 9 hours. But since that night in March 2016 I don’t really transition properly into sleep. In fact I hardly ever feel very sleepy. I do lose consciousness for a period of time most nights, but I wouldn’t call it real sleep and it is fragmented and short. Strangely if you were to wake me up in the middle of the night at any time, after 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours etc. there is no grogginess or sleep inertia. Once I regain consciousness I am immediately alert and awake. I have no real drive/pressure to sleep like I used to.

Alcohol has no effect, no buzz. I can’t maintain my bicep contraction when I go to make a muscle it goes soft quickly, like it can’t maintain the tone. I’ve also developed a smooth strange skin texture and appetite and thirst changes (blunted most days). I’ve stopped masturbating as my organisms were less intense or sometimes absent or made my head feel weird (which was mortifying at first).

Immediately I could not tolerate weight lifting. Cardio felt okay at first, I think because I was fit when this happened to me. But slowly I cannot tolerate the same level of cardio. And while I never sleep well, if I wear myself out through exercise (can only do cardio) my sleep onset is delayed and even more fragmented the night following the exercise.

I don’t feel too much anxiety anymore, feels more like my body has found a new homeostasis, but one I don’t want. I was very depressed about this as my body was undergoing these negative changes over the past year. However I feel I’ve hit the bottom; I’m in pretty bad shape, BUT I don’t seem to be getting any worse. It’s frightening to feel so fundamentally different - waking up from sleep at any point in the night and not feeling sleepy or groggy in anyway.

In the back of my mind I will never lose hope for a full recovery, that's just how I operate; but with such severe changes to the way I operate, part of me understands I may not completely revert back to normal. I’d just like to get back to feeling as good as I can.

Even if my body is not working like it used to, I am still working well enough to be alive and there are things I enjoy other than fitness, exercise, and sleep. (music / reading / movies / lots of other good stuff). Got to make that lemonade. Somebody somewhere is worse off, or doing more with less, no doubt. Just hard to keep that in the front of the mind 24 /7 or when symptoms are bad. Thank you for reading if you made it through all that.

I wouldn't say one specific thing turned my sleep around in general. It was more of a cumulative effect of health building that brought better, more restorative sleep. In the mean time, there were things that helped nudge it back into the correct patterns. It's all going to come down to your supplements.

Check out this page for what I used: Sleep Total Male Optimization (http://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/sleep/) You can use all three in conjuction with each other because they all use different pathways to accomplish their goal

Also if you haven't done the breathing exercises yet, they will CERTAINLY help put your mind in a better state for snoozing.

After the breathing, blast yourself with a cold shower....it will massively relax you afterwords.

So...you can take all three of those supps, do 4-5 rounds of breathing, cold shower, and then if you have the funds, go here and look up the "sleep suite" Calming the Mind Total Male Optimization (http://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/calming-the-mind/) You'll have to do some clicking around.

These things done consistently along with following the regimen in general will get you back on track.

[DrivenToRecover]

CD just wondering if you would share any specifics on your sleep improvements over time?

You mention you had problems with light sleep on TMO. What turned your sleep around specifically? Or when did you notice any kind of quality or consistency or depth return? I have tried magnesium and glycine (via gelatin and collagen). Maybe a small improvement in sleep after zinc and magnesium, but not much.

I plan to try the herbs, 7 to 10 is probably what I could afford to buy to start; did any specifically improve sleep more than others, otherwise I’ll probably look through them and just pick 7 I think seem best to start with.

I miss being able to exercise hard and sleep deeply; it made me feel strong in body and spirit; it made me feel human.

I put my question first so you wouldn’t have to read my background if you didn’t want to…essentially took a small amount about a year ago, it super f**ked up my brain and then my body has morphed into something else / generally gone down hill over the past year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Background

Took one dose of finasteride. Didn’t sleep at all that night. And my sleep was disturbed for a few days to a week. After this I returned to fairly normal, if anything I felt hormones raging. (Although maybe my sleep pattern was shifting more than normal but nothing I was concerned about)

Due to the initial sleep trouble I never took a second dose of finasteride (I took proscar/cheaper pill, not propecia).

Two months later in the middle I woke up wide-eyed and physically uncomfortable for no reason. Something happened to my brain chemistry at that moment in time - it felt like someone plugged me into an electrical outlet. My life and my sleep have not been the same since. This happened in March 2016.

Like healthy people I used to wake up in the morning feeling rested then get tired throughout the day and sleepy at night then sleep 7 to 9 hours. But since that night in March 2016 I don’t really transition properly into sleep. In fact I hardly ever feel very sleepy. I do lose consciousness for a period of time most nights, but I wouldn’t call it real sleep and it is fragmented and short. Strangely if you were to wake me up in the middle of the night at any time, after 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours etc. there is no grogginess or sleep inertia. Once I regain consciousness I am immediately alert and awake. I have no real drive/pressure to sleep like I used to.

Alcohol has no effect, no buzz. I can’t maintain my bicep contraction when I go to make a muscle it goes soft quickly, like it can’t maintain the tone. I’ve also developed a smooth strange skin texture and appetite and thirst changes (blunted most days). I’ve stopped masturbating as my organisms were less intense or sometimes absent or made my head feel weird (which was mortifying at first).

Immediately I could not tolerate weight lifting. Cardio felt okay at first, I think because I was fit when this happened to me. But slowly I cannot tolerate the same level of cardio. And while I never sleep well, if I wear myself out through exercise (can only do cardio) my sleep onset is delayed and even more fragmented the night following the exercise.

I don’t feel too much anxiety anymore, feels more like my body has found a new homeostasis, but one I don’t want. I was very depressed about this as my body was undergoing these negative changes over the past year. However I feel I’ve hit the bottom; I’m in pretty bad shape, BUT I don’t seem to be getting any worse. It’s frightening to feel so fundamentally different - waking up from sleep at any point in the night and not feeling sleepy or groggy in anyway.

In the back of my mind I will never lose hope for a full recovery, that's just how I operate; but with such severe changes to the way I operate, part of me understands I may not completely revert back to normal. I’d just like to get back to feeling as good as I can.

Even if my body is not working like it used to, I am still working well enough to be alive and there are things I enjoy other than fitness, exercise, and sleep. (music / reading / movies / lots of other good stuff). Got to make that lemonade. Somebody somewhere is worse off, or doing more with less, no doubt. Just hard to keep that in the front of the mind 24 /7 or when symptoms are bad. Thank you for reading if you made it through all that.

From my experience, your ability to sleep well isn't inherently broken by pfs. I think a lot of the problem is the mindset you are in and the stress you have going into sleeping.

Think about times before all of this where you didn't sleep well. For me, its usually when I had something really stressful or exciting the next day that I couldn't stop thinking about that night. The only sleepless nights I've had since also crashing last march are when I've let my mind race thinking about how strange I feel or what my future holds ect.

In addition to everything else people have said, I would add that finding something to distract yourself before sleeping helps a ton. I've really gotten into watching stand up specials, documentaries, movies, youtube, ect when I am winding down. I get so engrossed that I very rarely am thinking about anything negative while winding down.

I 100% know what you are talking about when you say you wake up feeling wide awake. Feeling like you never even enter the deep stages of sleep. I've wondered if this is connected to the memory issues most people get? REM sleep is important for memory.

Regardless, the regimen helps everything. I haven't had sleep issues in months.

[Cdsnuts]

From my experience, your ability to sleep well isn't inherently broken by pfs. I think a lot of the problem is the mindset you are in and the stress you have going into sleeping.

Think about times before all of this where you didn't sleep well. For me, its usually when I had something really stressful or exciting the next day that I couldn't stop thinking about that night. The only sleepless nights I've had since also crashing last march are when I've let my mind race thinking about how strange I feel or what my future holds ect.

In addition to everything else people have said, I would add that finding something to distract yourself before sleeping helps a ton. I've really gotten into watching stand up specials, documentaries, movies, youtube, ect when I am winding down. I get so engrossed that I very rarely am thinking about anything negative while winding down.

I 100% know what you are talking about when you say you wake up feeling wide awake. Feeling like you never even enter the deep stages of sleep. I've wondered if this is connected to the memory issues most people get? REM sleep is important for memory.

Regardless, the regimen helps everything. I haven't had sleep issues in months.

That's great that you can do that with TV.

At my worst though, this wouldn't have worked for me. My sleep was completely shot.

If I were to keep the TV on, I would have NEVER gotten to sleep because I would just keep watching the TV and my brain would never shut off and go to dream land. I would actually get sick of seeing the light and hearing the sound yet my mind just wouldn't shut off. Even though I wouldn't sleep, I still have to shut everything off to give my brain a break from the stimulus regardless of whether I would sleep or not.

It was horrible.

People that sleep well don't know how much of a blessing it is.

[DrivenToRecover]

I binged super hard on a bunch of tv shows right when I crashed. Anything to escape.

The only way I can fall asleep like that is when I'm using blue blocking glasses btw. Thats night & day difference.

Thats rough man. It really does sound like your baseline was super low. That alone should give everyone lots of hope.




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[Cdsnuts]

I binged super hard on a bunch of tv shows right when I crashed. Anything to escape.

The only way I can fall asleep like that is when I'm using blue blocking glasses btw. Thats night & day difference.

Thats rough man. It really does sound like your baseline was super low. That alone should give everyone lots of hope.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I believe this is directly related to allopregnenolone levels. I would just never get that comfortable drowsy drug like feeling that washes over normal people when they get tired. I was either awake or in a semi state of unrefreshing sleep.

It was such a relief the first time I finally got that tired comfortable drowsy feeling. A big smile came across my face because I knew I was going to finally start getting some good sleep.

These days I actually look forward to going to bed and getting some shut-eye as opposed to dreading it because I knew I was going to just toss and turn all night

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[coppersocks]

Hi I just want to throw in here that if you're prone to looking at your phone or watching a computer screen in some capacity in the hours before your sleep, there are two programs that I use that can help massively. The first is Flux for Windows and the second is Twilight on Android. Both will lower the levels of blue light coming off the screen after the sun goes down. It really helps me from getting headaches with college work late night and they have definitely both improved my sleep cycle as Melotonin. Also can't say enough good about the above mentioned breathing.

[coppersocks]

Hi I just want to throw in here that if you're prone to looking at your phone or watching a computer screen in some capacity in the hours before your sleep, there are two programs that I use that can help massively. The first is Flux for Windows and the second is Twilight on Android. Both will lower the levels of blue light coming off the screen after the sun goes down. It really helps me from getting headaches with college work late night and they have definitely both improved me sleep earlier. Also can't say enough good about the above mentioned breathing.

[Aflac]

“I believe this is directly related to allopregnenolone levels. I would just never get that comfortable drowsy drug like feeling that washes over normal people when they get tired. I was either awake or in a semi state of unrefreshing sleep.
It was such a relief the first time I finally got that tired comfortable drowsy feeling. A big smile came across my face because I knew I was going to finally start getting some good sleep.”
--------------------------------
THIS is absent for me as well. I feel like my whole life is on hold just waiting for that moment I get the drowsy feeling back / actually feel the pressure and need to sleep. Obviously I don’t actually know if things would all click into place if that feeling came back, but that’s how I like to imagine it.

-This moment of the comfortable drowsy feeling, how long after you crashed was it until you got that moment?
-How long into your protocol were you when that moment occurred?

Sorry to be focusing on timelines, but if you could know how much I dream (day dream of course) of the day when I get that sleepy feeling back and the deep sleep that would hopefully follow it. It’s been 11 months missing it.

Also, the allopreg theory is interesting. I want to try it. Did you try 5-alpha DHP? Would you consider that safer than pharma drugs? I’ve avoided all the drugs doctors like to offer when people mention severe sleep problems. I know the 5-alpha DHP isn’t a pharma drug, but it makes me pause. I know I read somewhere that you used allopreg directly in another product. It almost seems too easy for that to be the solution for the lack of sleep pressure, but I do wonder.

[Aflac]

I agree with the distracting yourself and the blue light suggestions thanks for those. I have the glasses too and they definitely help with sleep initiation. But once I’m out / lost consciousness I feel like the quality of the zzz’s is really not under my control.

I will start the program but it will not be immediate due to work and school obligations. But I will transition into the full program and update any progress when that happens. I’m really messed up compared to how I used to operate so if I can return to some state of health it will be more strong evidence that this method works. Thanks for the communication and suggestions.

[Cdsnuts]

“I believe this is directly related to allopregnenolone levels. I would just never get that comfortable drowsy drug like feeling that washes over normal people when they get tired. I was either awake or in a semi state of unrefreshing sleep.
It was such a relief the first time I finally got that tired comfortable drowsy feeling. A big smile came across my face because I knew I was going to finally start getting some good sleep.”
--------------------------------
THIS is absent for me as well. I feel like my whole life is on hold just waiting for that moment I get the drowsy feeling back / actually feel the pressure and need to sleep. Obviously I don’t actually know if things would all click into place if that feeling came back, but that’s how I like to imagine it.

-This moment of the comfortable drowsy feeling, how long after you crashed was it until you got that moment?
-How long into your protocol were you when that moment occurred?

Sorry to be focusing on timelines, but if you could know how much I dream (day dream of course) of the day when I get that sleepy feeling back and the deep sleep that would hopefully follow it. It’s been 11 months missing it.

Also, the allopreg theory is interesting. I want to try it. Did you try 5-alpha DHP? Would you consider that safer than pharma drugs? I’ve avoided all the drugs doctors like to offer when people mention severe sleep problems. I know the 5-alpha DHP isn’t a pharma drug, but it makes me pause. I know I read somewhere that you used allopreg directly in another product. It almost seems too easy for that to be the solution for the lack of sleep pressure, but I do wonder.

The only thing here I can tell you is that I remember getting it for the first time in years after my first water fast. It stayed around for the most part after that.

[TubZy]

Glycine has a dose dependent response especially in terms of the allopreg boost. This was shown in studies up to 15 grams or so taken in all one dose.

So, try increasing your dose if you haven't already.

Other mental disorders, dosages of 20+ grams were used too.

[Cdsnuts]

Glycine has a dose dependent response especially in terms of the allopreg boost. This was shown in studies up to 15 grams or so taken in all one dose.

So, try increasing your dose if you haven't already.

Other mental disorders, dosages of 20+ grams were used too.
Great to know Tubbs... Thanks

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[Aflac]

Glycine has a dose dependent response especially in terms of the allopreg boost. This was shown in studies up to 15 grams or so taken in all one dose.

So, try increasing your dose if you haven't already.

Other mental disorders, dosages of 20+ grams were used too.

Thanks for the suggestion. I was only taking about 3 grams at once. I will give the higher dose glycine a shot

[Aflac]

The only thing here I can tell you is that I remember getting it for the first time in years after my first water fast. It stayed around for the most part after that.

Interesting to know that the fast preceded the return of your sleepiness somewhat; thank you for sharing that.

I did 72 hours water fast about 6 months ago, but I wasn't on vacation, just going about my normal life and obligations minus the food. That didn't feel to good. I understood that wasn't ideal, but I didn't have time off and was curious/desperate to try the fast after reading about it's effects on immune system.

I'll have to wait for a block of time off to give the extended water fast a go. Until then I'll have to just go with the protocol minus the fast. Definitely can manage the juice feast

[Cdsnuts]

Interesting to know that the fast preceded the return of your sleepiness somewhat; thank you for sharing that.

I did 72 hours water fast about 6 months ago, but I wasn't on vacation, just going about my normal life and obligations minus the food. That didn't feel to good. I understood that wasn't ideal, but I didn't have time off and was curious/desperate to try the fast after reading about it's effects on immune system.

I'll have to wait for a block of time off to give the extended water fast a go. Until then I'll have to just go with the protocol minus the fast. Definitely can manage the juice feast

If you can't dedicate two weeks of water fasting at a clinic, then get on the juice feast. Unlike a water fast, you can go about your day with out TOO much discomfort. Although in the very beginning you may be light headed and have body temperature issues, these will pass as your system adjusts.

[Aly]

Hello Aflac,

any update? How are you doing now man? I think we'd all love to hear from you on your current recovery status