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Cdsnuts
03-14-2017, 05:54 PM
Hello Nostrum.

So I was hoping you can differentiate between these two compounds for me and others on the board who may need clarification.

They both convert to DHT, but there are obvious chemical differences between them.

Do they convert to different types of DHT?

I'm not 100% clear on what the differences are, but there are apparent differences in function and "feel"

Thanks!

Nostrum420
03-15-2017, 12:01 AM
I assume the R-DHEA is the alpha isomer and super-Epi-DHEA is the beta isomer.

The beta isomer tends to promote energy and aggression whereas the alpha gives a calm feeling.

I think the hormones you've mentioned have esters attached, but that won't make a huge difference... Once you're body cleaves the esters the only difference between the two hormones is the positioning of the 3-OH. The two different positions alpha vs beta cause the differences in feel. However, regardless of the a vs b position the 3-OH will metabolize into a 3-ketone. Once this happens they both turn into exactly the same molecule: androstan-dione there are no isomers of that hormone molecule. Androstan-dione then metabolizes into DHT.

There aren't different kinds of DHT ... naturally...

DHT is the 17-beta alcohol isomer. Technically it's possible to have a 17-alpha isomer but it's very difficult to synthesize 17a-hydroxyls due to other features of the androgen skeleton.

Cdsnuts
03-16-2017, 08:39 AM
I assume the R-DHEA is the alpha isomer and super-Epi-DHEA is the beta isomer.

The beta isomer tends to promote energy and aggression whereas the alpha gives a calm feeling.

I think the hormones you've mentioned have esters attached, but that won't make a huge difference... Once you're body cleaves the esters the only difference between the two hormones is the positioning of the 3-OH. The two different positions alpha vs beta cause the differences in feel. However, regardless of the a vs b position the 3-OH will metabolize into a 3-ketone. Once this happens they both turn into exactly the same molecule: androstan-dione there are no isomers of that hormone molecule. Androstan-dione then metabolizes into DHT.

There aren't different kinds of DHT ... naturally...

DHT is the 17-beta alcohol isomer. Technically it's possible to have a 17-alpha isomer but it's very difficult to synthesize 17a-hydroxyls due to other features of the androgen skeleton.

Well damn...aren't you handy to have around....lol.

It seems have you been extremely under utilized over here?

Okay, so then regardless of the isomer, the end result is DHT, but differences in the isomer account for the different feel of the hormone. So then actually does that mean that the hormone is being utilized before it turns into DHT because of the feelings given by the different isomers? Because if we would just feel the end result, or the target hormone, then we would just be feeling DHT, not the differences caused by the alpha or beta isomer, correct?

Strong_Guy_
03-16-2017, 11:02 AM
Good discussion here. The two stacked is great for me, that's what I'm currently doing, best of both worlds. Epiandro (b-isomer) alone and I can get a bit too aggressive and have a short fuse, especially at higher dosages. Androsterone balances it out well though. I feel like I get more of a strength boost too with the a-isomer.

Cdsnuts
03-16-2017, 11:17 AM
Yeah, I'm finding that out myself right now. Thing is, I was never able to tolerate epi in oral form. Made me feel like complete shit...lethargic, moody, no libido...the exact opposite of what it was supposed to do.

Rob sent me some Stano TD to run, and I'm actually enjoying it! I'm stacking it with R andro, which I love. The two together just give me a more balanced feel, is the best way I can put it.

I'm surprised there is such a difference between oral and transdermal administration of the compound, but there most certainly is. With this new found knowledge, it makes me want to give the new transdermal androhard a go.

bighulksmash
03-16-2017, 10:56 PM
Awesome point nuts .Nostrum definitely knows his stuff!!

TubZy
03-20-2017, 08:32 AM
I have been talking to haidut on and off about epi andro. I'll just copy/paste his response.

"Epiandrosterone is the 5b-isomer of androsterone. The 5b isomers are typically much weaker than the 5a ones and often are more estrogenic too. In the case of epiandrosterone, it is an actual agonist of the estrogen receptor beta, and is a very weak aromatase inhibitor compared to androsterone. It is also a much weaker agonist of the androgen receptor. Finally, the studies that used both epiandrosterone and androsterone to test their metabolism showed that androsterone readily converts into DHT, 5a-androstanedione, and epiandrosterone while epiandrosterone only converted to androstanediol and 5b-androstanedione but no DHT.
TLDR: epiandrosterone compares to androsterone similar to how how 5b-DHT compares to 5a-DHT. The latter is the real deal, the formed is a weaker metabolite. The 5a-steroids is where it's at for men and androsterone is a 5a-steroid while epiandrosterone is a 5b-steroid."

Cdsnuts
03-20-2017, 02:30 PM
I have been talking to haidut on and off about epi andro. I'll just copy/paste his response.

"Epiandrosterone is the 5b-isomer of androsterone. The 5b isomers are typically much weaker than the 5a ones and often are more estrogenic too. In the case of epiandrosterone, it is an actual agonist of the estrogen receptor beta, and is a very weak aromatase inhibitor compared to androsterone. It is also a much weaker agonist of the androgen receptor. Finally, the studies that used both epiandrosterone and androsterone to test their metabolism showed that androsterone readily converts into DHT, 5a-androstanedione, and epiandrosterone while epiandrosterone only converted to androstanediol and 5b-androstanedione but no DHT.
TLDR: epiandrosterone compares to androsterone similar to how how 5b-DHT compares to 5a-DHT. The latter is the real deal, the formed is a weaker metabolite. The 5a-steroids is where it's at for men and androsterone is a 5a-steroid while epiandrosterone is a 5b-steroid."

Well you through me for a loop with that one Tubz. How can any DHT precursor be estrogenic when the target hormone is DHT, which by all means, is ANTI estrogenic? I've never heard of this before?

TubZy
03-20-2017, 04:40 PM
Well you through me for a loop with that one Tubz. How can any DHT precursor be estrogenic when the target hormone is DHT, which by all means, is ANTI estrogenic? I've never heard of this before?

Here is another response from him, although it may not directly answer your question, which I may check up on as well. I honestly don't think it is a big issue when epiandro is paired with androsterone. I think it could be a bigger problem when epiandro is alone, again not confirmed though. So i'm not too worried about epi in regards to it being in the andro hard topical, IMO.

"I am not aware of any studies showing epiandro having better energetic or stimulating effects. If they can provide some studies that would be aswesome. There is a reason epiandro is so much cheaper than andro - it is less effective. Patrick Arnold said the same thing in one of his posts which you can probably find via Google - i.e. andro is where it's at and epiandro is just a poor substitute, which has been my experience as well. Not sure where their claim on using both being better is coming from. Again, epiandro is a 5b-isomer and may actually raise 5b-DHT instead of 5a-DHT. But if they have evidence I will obviously take it into account."

Cdsnuts
03-20-2017, 04:42 PM
Here is another response from him, although it may not directly answer your question, which I may check up on as well. I honestly don't think it is a big issue when epiandro is paired with androsterone. I think it could be a bigger problem when epiandro is alone, again not confirmed though. So i'm not too worried about epi in regards to it being in the andro hard topical, IMO.

"I am not aware of any studies showing epiandro having better energetic or stimulating effects. If they can provide some studies that would be aswesome. There is a reason epiandro is so much cheaper than andro - it is less effective. Patrick Arnold said the same thing in one of his posts which you can probably find via Google - i.e. andro is where it's at and epiandro is just a poor substitute, which has been my experience as well. Not sure where their claim on using both being better is coming from. Again, epiandro is a 5b-isomer and may actually raise 5b-DHT instead of 5a-DHT. But if they have evidence I will obviously take it into account."
Yup....you're right....doesn't answer my question....lol

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TubZy
03-20-2017, 04:45 PM
There isn't much info on 5b-DHT but I also found this. It seems to be the easiest to understand.

5b or not 5b? - Total Flex BlogTotal Flex Blog (http://www.totalflexblog.com/articles/5b-or-not-5b/)

"The conformational change involved in 5b-reduction makes the steroid anything but flat, and an extremely poor fit for the receptor. By way of an example, 5a-DHT has 173 times stronger binding affinity than 5b-DHT. [3] 5b-reduced steroids are effectively inactive."

"The upshot being, if any superdrol clone was using a 5b-isomer of the methasteron molecule, it wouldn’t be “weaker”, it quite simply wouldn’t work."

"A few years ago people began to notice that certain brands of superdrol clones list the active ingredient as 2a,17a-dimethyl-etiocholan-3-one-17b-ol, believing this to indicate that the steroid inside is 5-b reduced version, or a “b-isomer” of superdrol. Many even go so far as to use this as an explanation for cycles with these drugs that do not meet the expectations of the user, citing the “weaker b-isomer” as the excuse for the poor results."

TubZy
03-20-2017, 04:57 PM
Yup....you're right....doesn't answer my question....lol

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I don't want to give you the wrong answer haha. My guess is that since 5b-DHT is the "inactive androgen form" it could bind to the estrogen receptor beta much easier. I don't think he is saying "estrogenic" like gyno etc. (even though it is an agonist of ERb) just saying it is a much weaker version compared to androsterone. My post above mentions how much stronger 5a-DHT is compared to 5b-DHT in terms of binding (way way stronger). So 5b-DHT could just be a "by product" of the during the production of DHT which is why it is considered inactive, with weaker traits. It basically just assists in the conversion and deactivates afterwards.

Cdsnuts
03-20-2017, 05:07 PM
I don't want to give you the wrong answer haha. My guess is that since 5b-DHT is the "inactive androgen form" it could bind to the estrogen receptor beta much easier. I don't think he is saying "estrogenic" like gyno etc. (even though it is an agonist of ERb) just saying it is a much weaker version compared to androsterone. My post above mentions how much stronger 5a-DHT is compared to 5b-DHT in terms of binding (way way stronger). So 5b-DHT could just be a "by product" of the during the production of DHT which is why it is considered inactive, with weaker traits. It basically just assists in the conversion and deactivates afterwards.
I find it interesting that it would bind to the estrogen receptor at all.

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TubZy
03-20-2017, 05:42 PM
I find it interesting that it would bind to the estrogen receptor at all.

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It is not that uncommon really. DHEA can also bind to ERb as well yet is androgenic (and a precursor to DHT as well) and stimulates 5AR. A lot of variables are in play like how strongly it binds, dosage etc.

DHEA metabolites activate estrogen receptors alpha and beta (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3529809/)


One of your herbs does as well (schizandra)

Extracts from Schizandra chinensis fruit activate estrogen receptors: a possible clue to its effects on nitric oxide-mediated vasorelaxation. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15256741)

Cdsnuts
03-20-2017, 05:57 PM
It is not that uncommon really. DHEA can also bind to ERb as well yet is androgenic (and a precursor to DHT as well) and stimulates 5AR. A lot of variables are in play like how strongly it binds, dosage etc.

DHEA metabolites activate estrogen receptors alpha and beta (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3529809/)


One of your herbs does as well (schizandra)

Extracts from Schizandra chinensis fruit activate estrogen receptors: a possible clue to its effects on nitric oxide-mediated vasorelaxation. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15256741)

Hopefully Nostrum chimes in here soon. This has been a great discussion.

I guess when I think estrogen receptor, I think that only estrogen or estrogen like hormones/substances would bind to and activate it. It seems counter intuitive that an androgen would bind to an estrogen receptor. I wonder what the biological purpose of this would be?

But, back to my original question, which is do the DHT precusor's actually get "used" prior to becoming DHT? If the differences in isomers are "felt" prior to becoming DHT, this would lead one to believe that they are actually being utilized in some way before becoming the target hormone. Otherwise we would just strictly feel the action of DHT, not the isomers.

Nostrum420
03-21-2017, 08:08 AM
Well damn...aren't you handy to have around....lol.

It seems have you been extremely under utilized over here?

Okay, so then regardless of the isomer, the end result is DHT, but differences in the isomer account for the different feel of the hormone. So then actually does that mean that the hormone is being utilized before it turns into DHT because of the feelings given by the different isomers? Because if we would just feel the end result, or the target hormone, then we would just be feeling DHT, not the differences caused by the alpha or beta isomer, correct?

Essentially, yes, there is some binding to androgen receptors in the brain by the unconverted hormones.

Cdsnuts
03-21-2017, 08:43 AM
Essentially, yes, there is some binding to androgen receptors in the brain by the unconverted hormones.

Okay....that makes perfect sense as there would be no other way for those difference to be felt otherwise.

I'm now curious as to what happens to them after they bind and illicit their effects in the cells? Do they then get used again as they continue on the chain of transformation? Or once it's bound, it's used as is and then that's it?

delsolrob
06-12-2017, 01:49 AM
good thread here! Thanks Nos and CD!

Cdsnuts
06-13-2017, 08:40 AM
good thread here! Thanks Nos and CD!

Wow....you're alive Rob.

Would still love to know the answer to this question here.

Edit: The answer is simply that the prohormones (pre DHT metabolites) are used by the body as a standalone which means SOME of the precursors bind to the AR before conversion eliciting their response which is slightly different then the response of the target hormone, DHT.

This is why the different isomers have different "feels" to them.