IML R-Andro First Taste

[Durantia37]

Hey guys,

I dosed R-Andro for the first time today (300mg). It had some really fun effects: 1) a fuzzy warmth in my muscles, stomach, and genitals, 2) I had about 15 erections today, 3) I felt really chill and relaxed for the first half of the day.

However, I don't think my body is ready for this stuff yet. I had a kind of mid-day energy crash where I just could NOT get off the couch. Then, later in the day, I felt simultaneously over-stimulated and tired in a kind of uncomfortable sleepless way - it basically felt like my body couldn't keep up with my hormones (which makes a certain amount of sense, seeing as all these tissues have been DHT-starved for a long time). I also had bad/weird-feeling digestion all day. I think I could probably down-dose a little and get good results, but I'd rather stick with the herbs (which work ridiculously well for me) until I'm ready to go full throttle.

I will say this: when I dose the herbs, there's often a period of about 15 minutes before they kick in where I feel terrible (tired-and-wired, nausea, upset stomach), and then boom, pure testosterone ecstasy. The feeling I had with the prohormone today was just an amped-up version of this feeling. I think it's possible that if I kept this dose up for a few more days, I'd get to the good stuff, but the whole thing just freaks me out at this point in the game.

Comments/suggestions from the prohormonally experienced are welcomed.

[Snell1234]

If it's just the energy crash, I would keep going. But I stopped after one dose too but due to anxiety. I too felt amazing on it before my anxiety kicked in.

[Durantia37]

If it's just the energy crash, I would keep going. But I stopped after one dose too but due to anxiety. I too felt amazing on it before my anxiety kicked in.

No, I have anxiety too. Or at least a kind of full-body jittery feeling. It's not terrible, but six weeks of it? Hell no lol. Glad someone else had a similar experience. Are you gonna try it again later on? How much did you do?

[Snell1234]

I did 100mg. Yes, I'll be going again. Just trying to get my adrenals and body built up a bit more so it can handle it all.

[K8668B]

sorry to hear that you're getting the anxiety and other sides with it. if its THAT untolerable, and the herbs give you really good results, then id say kick it for now. but at the same time, you said you got 15 erections in one day from it. for that reason alone, i would stay using the andro. hahahaa. I wish that shit would happen to me!

[Snell1234]

sorry to hear that you're getting the anxiety and other sides with it. if its THAT untolerable, and the herbs give you really good results, then id say kick it for now. but at the same time, you said you got 15 erections in one day from it. for that reason alone, i would stay using the andro. hahahaa. I wish that shit would happen to me!

Have you given the r-andro a run yet?

[Durantia37]

sorry to hear that you're getting the anxiety and other sides with it. if its THAT untolerable, and the herbs give you really good results, then id say kick it for now. but at the same time, you said you got 15 erections in one day from it. for that reason alone, i would stay using the andro. hahahaa. I wish that shit would happen to me!

It's not as good as it sounds. These are PFS erections, 3/5 normal size. I honestly like the herbs more than the prohormones, negative effects aside. I think it's gonna suck to have to go six weeks without them at some point.

I'm not exaggerating, almost every day someone comments on how much bigger I've gotten. I was at 150lbs ever since high school. Now im at 170. Way thicker facial hair too. Those herbs are 100% life-changers for me.

[K8668B]

Have you given the r-andro a run yet?

Nah. Im still stuck at the juice feast part of the protocol. cleanse #2 actually. im actually questioning this one too, despite being told not to question it. but thats another story for another time. so i still have a ways to go until i try the r andro. im definitely going to the run it though!

[K8668B]

It's not as good as it sounds. These are PFS erections, 3/5 normal size. I honestly like the herbs more than the prohormones, negative effects aside. I think it's gonna suck to have to go six weeks without them at some point.

I'm not exaggerating, almost every day someone comments on how much bigger I've gotten. I was at 150lbs ever since high school. Now im at 170. Way thicker facial hair too. Those herbs are 100% life-changers for me.

herbs it is for you id say then. plus you dont have to risk losing hair at a faster rate like you probably would have on the r andro.

[Maxout777]

I've found that with backloading, aka no carbs during the day, that running R Andro can cause cortisol to drop pretty low, which in turn is probably causing your anxiety. I noticed that a little bit in the beginning, backloaded heavier than normal at night, and it went away.

Food for thought, literally lol.

[biatch]

So, does it mean that if I do have low cortisol, I do have to pay attention to use R andro causing anxiety?

[Durantia37]

Shit, that's good thinking Maxout. This diet is such a habit now that I forget it's insanely low-carb. Androsterone's effects on the body are evidently similar to T3, so it would make perfect sense that you need more carbs.

[Maxout777]

Shit, that's good thinking Maxout. This diet is such a habit now that I forget it's insanely low-carb. Androsterone's effects on the body are evidently similar to T3, so it would make perfect sense that you need more carbs.

Yeah lol, same here on the habit......it took me a little research to find that out, but it's burning through your glycogen stores as a thyroid mimetic. I would backload with a lot of potatoes, and even organic ice cream with no fillers....it didn't negatively effect me, so your mileage may vary. But yeah, you've got to backload a shit ton the night before when you're doing an R-Andro cycle. I found that out the hard way, similar to you......I didn't want to drop it, but at the same time it was giving me anxiety at times. This corrected all of that once I figured out I had to stay ahead of it's pro-thyroid effects. If I'm correct - your anxiety was probably worse during the day, but better after backloading?

- - - Updated - - -


So, does it mean that if I do have low cortisol, I do have to pay attention to use R andro causing anxiety?

You've just got to keep your body (the best you can) from entering the low cortisol mode caused by androsterone's pro-thyroid effects by doing heavy backloading while on cycle.

[Snell1234]

Very interesting. Thanks maxout. I'll build my body up a bit more with the herbs and then pay attention to this when I give r andro another go.

[Durantia37]

Yesterday was an HIIT day, so no backloading unfortunately..however, the anxiety and jitters carried over into today, and I definitely feel better after eating rice a couple hours ago. I think you hit the nail on the head man. I'm still gonna hold off a little bit and try to learn more about this stuff before making any more mistakes, but thanks a bunch man.

[Swill]

My only advice would be that whilst it is understandable you are concerned about any negative effects, I truly dont believe a pro hormone such as this will do you any 'harm' per se.

If you are feeling like you'd rather get more of a grounding with the herbs for now then by all means stick with them for now, absolutely, but I wouldn't worry too much about getting 'set back' by this kinda compound on the path to healing, if you get me.

My mileage is that I have tried 3 different pro hormones all at different stages of recovery, 2 did nothing for me (but no harm) and most recently the R Andro worked like a charm for me, even with the backloading.

[Snell1234]

How are you going swill? Have you kept all the gains from the pro hormone? And what's your plan now, another run of the r andro in 8 weeks or you think that you won't even need it?

[Swill]

How are you going swill? Have you kept all the gains from the pro hormone? And what's your plan now, another run of the r andro in 8 weeks or you think that you won't even need it?

I'm doing good, I've not kept all the gains and things slipped a little but still better than I am first cycle, I know this is the route forward that works for me now and I am too long in the tooth with this stuff to let a little setback eat me up. I also haven't been helped by the fact I popped a rib out this weekend... had an X-ray today and am in fucking agony, have the worst luck with injuries, but these things normally clear up quite quickly so fingers crossed not too long out from lifting... will just up my cardio in the meantime once the inflammation goes down.

Going to run the R Andro again in about a months time, and will throw in the 4 andro that Maxout used in his last cycle too, as I've heard great things... gonna run the cycle for 12 weeks too, think that will help with re-conditioning my body and lead to more gains sticking around. Absolutely comfortable I'm on the home straight.

[Durantia37]

So I've decided to give this another go, and now I'm on day three of 200mg/day. I took Maxout's advice and added more carbs into my diet - a good deal more. The results have been very good, and I now plan on doing a full cycle with this stuff.

I was wondering whether it's okay to keep taking pine pollen while on cycle. I've been taking 2 tablespoons the last three days. My thinking was that this would boost testosterone while the prohormone was boosting DHT. Then I planned on doing 3 tablespoons, the normal rotation, daily tincture and daily shilajit for PCT. Is this sensible?

I was also wondering if I should expect ball shrinkage? I already have ball shrinkage, so it's going to be hard to tell anyways.

For those curious, the effects so far have been:
-distinct feeling of vascularity in arms and chest.
-distinct improvement in mood.
-mild increase in libido
-distinct energy boost
-mild anxiety if I go a long time without eating eating
-mild increase in overall body size (already, somehow).

[TubZy]

Shit, that's good thinking Maxout. This diet is such a habit now that I forget it's insanely low-carb. Androsterone's effects on the body are evidently similar to T3, so it would make perfect sense that you need more carbs.

You literally need sugar. Eating a paleo/keto type diet is not the best while using any prohormone especially androsterone, it literally does exactly what T3 can do in the body. T3 literally needs glucose to enter the cell, if glucose is not present then your body will cause a stress response (cortisol and adrenaline) androsterone is no different. Lack of glucose will cause cortisol to kick in as it is the "back up" mechanism when glucose is not present furthering the stress response.

It is like stepping on the gas without enough fuel.

Look up "atromid" which is the marketing name for androsterone that was introduced back in the 1960's as a strong cholesterol lowering drug due to how strong it can stimulate metabolism (the way cholesterol should be properly lowered, if very high) exactly the same way T3 does while increasing cellular respiration. Atromid fell out of the spotlight when statins were introduced shortly after unfortunately..which instead deactivate the enzyme in your liver that actually makes cholesterol which cause a host of several negative effects including the same enzyme that synthesizes CoQ10.

High cholesterol is simply just an impaired metabolism, while running on cortisol as fuel and/or impaired liver function, where the conversion of thyroid occurs.

Not to mention all androgens in general increase the conversion of T4 into T3...which would increase metabolism, meaning sugar/carbs should be used especially at the time of dosage.

I know this forum is anti sugar/carbs, but that is how the body works. Your body prefers glucose as its first fuel source for a reason. Same goes for anything that increases metabolism..caffeine..nicotine..aspirin etc. you should be taking it with sugar/carbs, it makes a significant difference. Sugar from fruits should be your first option as your body can utilize it the quickest and most efficient since it contains the minerals and enzymes for proper glucose oxidation followed by starches/potatoes etc. if fruit isn't available...get rid of grains they are useless if you are consuming them, gluten inhibits the conversion of T4 into T3 as well as increasing serotonin in the gut.

I'm not bias at all, I have been a person in deep ketosis for many months, ate low carb for a long time etc. in my past..

This is also coming from a person who used to get anxiety from drinking a cup of coffee to consuming almost a gram of caffeine a day from significantly upping my sugar intake and tolerance with no issues.

[K8668B]

glad youre giving the andro another try, durantia. i think it will help you out.

from my research, and what lots of people on the forum have said about it, it seems like pure gold to me! as long as youre carb backloading at night, you should be okay

[Snell1234]

You literally need sugar. Eating a paleo/keto type diet is not the best while using any prohormone especially androsterone, it literally does exactly what T3 can do in the body. T3 literally needs glucose to enter the cell, if glucose is not present then your body will cause a stress response (cortisol and adrenaline) androsterone is no different. Lack of glucose will cause cortisol to kick in as it is the "back up" mechanism when glucose is not present furthering the stress response.

It is like stepping on the gas without enough fuel.

Look up "atromid" which is the marketing name for androsterone that was introduced back in the 1960's as a strong cholesterol lowering drug due to how strong it can stimulate metabolism (the way cholesterol should be properly lowered, if very high) exactly the same way T3 does while increasing cellular respiration. Atromid fell out of the spotlight when statins were introduced shortly after unfortunately..which instead deactivate the enzyme in your liver that actually makes cholesterol which cause a host of several negative effects including the same enzyme that synthesizes CoQ10.

High cholesterol is simply just an impaired metabolism, while running on cortisol as fuel and/or impaired liver function, where the conversion of thyroid occurs.

Not to mention all androgens in general increase the conversion of T4 into T3...which would increase metabolism, meaning sugar/carbs should be used especially at the time of dosage.

I know this forum is anti sugar/carbs, but that is how the body works. Your body prefers glucose as its first fuel source for a reason. Same goes for anything that increases metabolism..caffeine..nicotine..aspirin etc. you should be taking it with sugar/carbs, it makes a significant difference. Sugar from fruits should be your first option as your body can utilize it the quickest and most efficient since it contains the minerals and enzymes for proper glucose oxidation followed by starches/potatoes etc. if fruit isn't available...get rid of grains they are useless if you are consuming them, gluten inhibits the conversion of T4 into T3 as well as increasing serotonin in the gut.

I'm not bias at all, I have been a person in deep ketosis for many months, ate low carb for a long time etc. in my past..

This is also coming from a person who used to get anxiety from drinking a cup of coffee to consuming almost a gram of caffeine a day from significantly upping my sugar intake and tolerance with no issues.

Great information. This explains why my stress and anxiety seems to have kicked in a bit more ever since I've raised my testosterone levels.

How many grams of sugars should we be looking at? I have 3 tubs of yoghurt with blueberries every day. Each tub has 25g or sugar.

[Swill]

So I've decided to give this another go, and now I'm on day three of 200mg/day. I took Maxout's advice and added more carbs into my diet - a good deal more. The results have been very good, and I now plan on doing a full cycle with this stuff.

I was wondering whether it's okay to keep taking pine pollen while on cycle. I've been taking 2 tablespoons the last three days. My thinking was that this would boost testosterone while the prohormone was boosting DHT. Then I planned on doing 3 tablespoons, the normal rotation, daily tincture and daily shilajit for PCT. Is this sensible?

I was also wondering if I should expect ball shrinkage? I already have ball shrinkage, so it's going to be hard to tell anyways.

For those curious, the effects so far have been:
-distinct feeling of vascularity in arms and chest.
-distinct improvement in mood.
-mild increase in libido
-distinct energy boost
-mild anxiety if I go a long time without eating eating
-mild increase in overall body size (already, somehow).

In relation to the pine pollen, i'd genuinely drop it. From what I understand while using a PH you're not going to reap the hormonal benefits from the pine pollen. Sure I suppose it will give you some of the nutrients etc., but the advice I was given from CD was to use spirulina/chorella daily whist on the PH as this will give you what you need, and at a damn sight cheaper cost.

The PCT sounds spot on, and id save your pine pollen for that phase too. It was mentioned that shilajit can be good when on the PH due to the mineral content though, and also dont forget to get your magnesium in.

[Durantia37]

In relation to the pine pollen, i'd genuinely drop it. From what I understand while using a PH you're not going to reap the hormonal benefits from the pine pollen. Sure I suppose it will give you some of the nutrients etc., but the advice I was given from CD was to use spirulina/chorella daily whist on the PH as this will give you what you need, and at a damn sight cheaper cost.

The PCT sounds spot on, and id save your pine pollen for that phase too. It was mentioned that shilajit can be good when on the PH due to the mineral content though, and also dont forget to get your magnesium in.

Great info man, I was just starting to pick up on the fact that the pine pollen didn't seem to be doing anything anymore. It was basically just the world's most expensive multivitamin.

I do daily magnesium, d3, glycine, B complex, and K2. Probably not even necessary with all the nutrients and sunshine I get from diet and lifestyle.

[TubZy]

Great information. This explains why my stress and anxiety seems to have kicked in a bit more ever since I've raised my testosterone levels.

How many grams of sugars should we be looking at? I have 3 tubs of yoghurt with blueberries every day. Each tub has 25g or sugar.

It depends on how hard you are pressing metabolism, if your metabolism and hormones are dialed in your glucose and protein requirements will be more.

I'm on cynoplus and have been for a while now, but I can take in like so many more calories in the form of sugar and still not put on a pound of fat and stay lean and vascular. I can also go much longer without eating as well because my metabolism is working much more efficiently again.

It is not just T4/T3 but caffeine, aspirin, nicotine, androsterone etc. Anything that increases your metabolism will require more glucose and nutrients.

Testosterone can be a little different since it can convert to estrogen which could be causing some anxiety, not sure if you are on TRT or you are just increasing it naturally, but regardless I would try to significantly upping your carbs/sugar to see if it helps your anxiety and stress, it should.

Each meal I would at least get in 30 grams or so of sugar in the form of fruits or fruit juice like OJ with at least 20 grams of protein, that should be enough. In between meals, if you feel you are going hypoglycemic, just pound back a glass of OJ and you will feel better very quickly, the issue with PFS suffers is due to an impaired metabolism, we can't store glycogen well so the need for glucose is even more increased.

GABA inhibits the cortisol and the body's natural stress response so an increase in stress further demands the need for more glucose especially in the brain, if that makes sense. GABA-A isnt being modulated correctly due to the depleted neurosteroids so when any stress occurs it makes our body require more glucose because GABA isn't there to properly help shut down the stress, requiring the need for even more glucose.

Glucose lowers cortisol, as mentioned earlier they operate on a see saw, when glucose is used up, cortisol will kick in, when enough glucose is available, cortisol is within range and not going to spike.

Same reason why people on a ketogenic diet have chronically higher levels of cortisol since blood sugar is so low due to lack of glucose.

[Snell1234]

All natural for me. Mainly pine pollen powder and tincture have improved my hormonal profile.

Thanks for the information.

[Durantia37]

Snell, I'd consider trying the prohormone again with extra carbs this time. We seem to be in a similar place in the healing process, and the andro makes me feel amazing this time around.

[TubZy]

All natural for me. Mainly pine pollen powder and tincture have improved my hormonal profile.

Thanks for the information.

I forgot to mention, you can incorporate niacinamide or gelatin (glycine) and that should also reduce your anxiety greatly. GABA agonists pair awesome with dopaminergics.

Never could really use the tincture, gave me bad histamine reactions.

[Snell1234]

I'll up my carbs now and see if I can get my cortisol back down. If I can do that, I'll get back on it.

I know it's only a matter of when for when my cortisol drops enough for me to be able to get back on it. The pine pollen powder and tincture seem to be doing a good job in the mean time.

[Durantia37]

For what it's worth, I didn't really feel ready either. And the first day and a half felt pretty weird/anxious. But now it's smoothed out and I definitely feel the best I've felt in months. I'm just saying I wouldn't get caught up in waiting and waiting until you feel perfectly ready. I'd take the plunge sooner rather than later.

[Snell1234]

I get what you are saying, but I'm a pretty conservative type person. I probably will make sure there is next to no risk of anything happening with the cortisol before I get back on it. Last time, I got huge anxiety, shortness of breath, and chest pains due to the cortisol issues. Obviously not heart related, but cortisol / anxiety related. I want to avoid a repeat of that. Did you get any of that?

[TubZy]

I get what you are saying, but I'm a pretty conservative type person. I probably will make sure there is next to no risk of anything happening with the cortisol before I get back on it. Last time, I got huge anxiety, shortness of breath, and chest pains due to the cortisol issues. Obviously not heart related, but cortisol / anxiety related. I want to avoid a repeat of that. Did you get any of that?

Are you trying to address high cortisol? If so, you have some many options of lowering it. Androsterone not only significantly lowers estrogen but also cortisol, another reason why proper carb intake should be maximized as much as possible while on cycle otherwise androsterone can make you feel worse without the proper fuel. Aspirin in another addition that you can take a look at to control cortisol.

If I were you I would just increasing carb intake until symptoms disappeared.

Make sure you are taking in enough sodium/salt which also lowers adrenaline.

[Snell1234]

I'm not completely sure whether I have high or low cortisol. I suspect it's high cortisol but I can't be sure. Tests from a couple of years back showed my cortisol spiked at night (but I also did the saliva test after a session at the gym, so I can't be sure if the test isn't skewed because of that). I do feel a change in cortisol in the evening.

I find after a cycle of the pine pollen tincture of a couple of weeks my baseline improves - slowly, but improves. It improves the cortisol situation too once I come off it.

I'll try to add some more carbs in and wait till my cortisol situation improves a bit before getting back on the r andro.

I think the pine pollen powder and the tincture together is a nice light way of getting effects similar to the prohormone, obviously not on the same scale. Being in a position to get back on the prohormone is my short term goal.

[Durantia37]

I get what you are saying, but I'm a pretty conservative type person. I probably will make sure there is next to no risk of anything happening with the cortisol before I get back on it. Last time, I got huge anxiety, shortness of breath, and chest pains due to the cortisol issues. Obviously not heart related, but cortisol / anxiety related. I want to avoid a repeat of that. Did you get any of that?

I never had symptoms quite that severe, but I definitely felt super weird and terrible doing 300mg without extra carbs. I didn't feel right for like three days. But now I eat tons of bananas and beet juice throughout the day, and either rice or potatoes every night, sometimes a fruit cup as well, and I'm feeling fantastic at 200mg, might even try bumping this up.

(Feeling fantastic meaning: tons of energy, very good mood, almost normal libido, muscle gains, more blood flow to penis, way more confidence, mental improvements - you name it).

Btw, as anyone who reads my old posts can see, I'm conservative as fuck also. I was scared of juicing, scared of taking too many herbs, scared, for awhile, of high fodmap - not one of these fears helped me, quite the contrary. I just don't think there's much to be afraid of. CD is such a hardcore naturopath and he fully condones this stuff.

[TubZy]

I'm not completely sure whether I have high or low cortisol. I suspect it's high cortisol but I can't be sure. Tests from a couple of years back showed my cortisol spiked at night (but I also did the saliva test after a session at the gym, so I can't be sure if the test isn't skewed because of that). I do feel a change in cortisol in the evening.

I find after a cycle of the pine pollen tincture of a couple of weeks my baseline improves - slowly, but improves. It improves the cortisol situation too once I come off it.

I'll try to add some more carbs in and wait till my cortisol situation improves a bit before getting back on the r andro.

I think the pine pollen powder and the tincture together is a nice light way of getting effects similar to the prohormone, obviously not on the same scale. Being in a position to get back on the prohormone is my short term goal.

I see, cortisol issues always revert back to underlying issue of thyroid. Adrenals get taxed because the thyroid is not functioning correctly, adrenals are basically the body's back up system for hormones. So if thyroid isn't working right (usually from high cortisol and estrogen) the adrenals will then take over in order to keep the production of hormones going like DHEA etc. instead of the proper route when thyroid is working right it derives hormones from cholesterol instead.

You are absolutely right in saying pine pollen is a lighter version of R andro because it actually is. The main compound in pine pollen is androsterone which is the active ingredient in R andro. From my personal experience, and even in studies it only took a few milligrams of androsterone to lower estrogen up to 80%+ so you don't need much.

So upping carbs on pine pollen would be smart whether it is high or low cortisol.

The one thing R andro didn't improve that much was brain to penis connection, like caffeine, nicotine and niacinamide did. It did it improve it but nothing like the latter.

[biatch]

I never had symptoms quite that severe, but I definitely felt super weird and terrible doing 300mg without extra carbs. I didn't feel right for like three days. But now I eat tons of bananas and beet juice throughout the day, and either rice or potatoes every night, sometimes a fruit cup as well, and I'm feeling fantastic at 200mg, might even try bumping this up.

(Feeling fantastic meaning: tons of energy, very good mood, almost normal libido, muscle gains, more blood flow to penis, way more confidence, mental improvements - you name it).

Btw, as anyone who reads my old posts can see, I'm conservative as fuck also. I was scared of juicing, scared of taking too many herbs, scared, for awhile, of high fodmap - not one of these fears helped me, quite the contrary. I just don't think there's much to be afraid of. CD is such a hardcore naturopath and he fully condones this stuff.

I am excited for you and happy it is working great now!!.. Is there any link between the dose of the cycle and the "recovery" speed? I mean, since you are already feeling the effects on this dose, bumping it up would it give you any plus?

[Durantia37]

I would assume the higher the dose, the better the results, yeah. I'm just trying to minimize side effects. Speaking of, one thing I guess I should mention: I have been having horrible nightmares every night since starting the cycle.

[K8668B]

I would assume the higher the dose, the better the results, yeah. I'm just trying to minimize side effects. Speaking of, one thing I guess I should mention: I have been having horrible nightmares every night since starting the cycle.

Good idea!

That sucks about the nightmares. But at least you're getting awesome other benefits from it though. Ill take those benefits and deal with the nightmares anyday or "night", LOL!

[Cdsnuts]

Guys....this is why I recommend back loading.

SLAM those carbs at night. You will not only notice a difference in your physique, but in your mindset as well.

After a nice fat backload I get all relaxed and comfy....and then pass right out. I can feel the relaxation wash over me like a warm blanket.

Once you get it dialed in, you can feel when you need more carbs. I eat so much at night it carries me through to the next backload.

Just pig out...fruit, rice, potatoes....everything I have on the list. When done correctly you can FEEL it working it's magic.

[Cdsnuts]

I would assume the higher the dose, the better the results, yeah. I'm just trying to minimize side effects. Speaking of, one thing I guess I should mention: I have been having horrible nightmares every night since starting the cycle.

I've heard this from a few others before as well. Your mind is more stimulated then usual while cycling. I'm willing to be that if you really slammed the carbs before bed, this may stop. You'll increase the gaba in your brain which will have a settling effect on your mind.

[Durantia37]

I've heard this from a few others before as well. Your mind is more stimulated then usual while cycling. I'm willing to be that if you really slammed the carbs before bed, this may stop. You'll increase the gaba in your brain which will have a settling effect on your mind.

I somehow missed the memo about having to eat shit tons of carbs while backloading. I hadn't been eating more than like one serving of rice up until recently. I'll keep upping the carbs I guess. The nightmares aren't a huge deal, but I'd rather not have them for six weeks lol.

[TubZy]

I would assume the higher the dose, the better the results, yeah. I'm just trying to minimize side effects. Speaking of, one thing I guess I should mention: I have been having horrible nightmares every night since starting the cycle.

More glucose...pound some OJ before bed or better yet ice cream (saturated fats + sugar prolong absorption)..the nightmares are from the adrenaline spike since your blood sugar drops through the night from not eating. PFS suffers don't hold glycogen well.

When you stimulate your metabolism, it can be a double edged sword. Your body needs more carbs and protein along with co-factors (magnesium and B vitamins mainly) to keep up, if those are not present that is when you can feel "worse" or my favorite description like a zombie, which is how I felt for a very long time until I dialed everything in.

[Snell1234]

How close do you reckon you are to being recovered TubZy?

[Cdsnuts]

I somehow missed the memo about having to eat shit tons of carbs while backloading. I hadn't been eating more than like one serving of rice up until recently. I'll keep upping the carbs I guess. The nightmares aren't a huge deal, but I'd rather not have them for six weeks lol.

That's the name of the game when it comes to backloading.

I love it because it feels like you're cheating, but you're not.

[TubZy]

How close do you reckon you are to being recovered TubZy?

About 85% or so. I completely reverse all my remaining symptoms (mainly mental) when I take the caffeine and niacinamide combo. In the studies it seems that many stimulants actually increase 5AR in the brain and neurosteroids. I switched off caffeine and niacinamide for a little bit because it stimulates my metabolism so much where I would be pounding carbs and sugar down all day and it was kind of a pain while at work. Have been experimenting with pure nicotine in the form of gum and it has a very similar effect to caffeine. Nicotine also increases neurosteroids in the brain.

I just find it so ironic that stimulants were shown to increase 5AR in the brain and when you have PFS,stimulants seem like the devil lol, when you have lack of GABA activity..

Other things, I found to help with mental symptoms was 1500-2 grams of lysine taken in one dose. It lowers serotonin in the brain, which leads to less anxiety and an increase in dopamine.


Sex hormones metabolism in the brain: influence of central acting drugs on 5 alpha-reduction in rat diencephalon. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/477622)

"Diencephalon 5 alpha-reductase activity showed a highly significant increase (p less than 0.01) after a single administration of carbamazepine, reserpine, diazepam, phenytoin, phenobarbital or disulfiram. A significant increase (p less than 0.05) was also found after a single administration of methylphenidate, caffeine or methamphetamine. Plasma testosterone decreased concurrently after administration of all these agents, except diazepam. Diencephalon enzyme activity decreased significantly after repeated disulfiram administrations (p less than 0.01) but increased significantly after methamphetamine administrations (p less than 0.05). Plasma testosterone showed a tendency to decrease after repeated methamphetamine administrations but tended to increase after repeated disulfiram administrations."

Nicotine

Neurosteroids in nicotine and morphine dependence. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16133140)

"Acute intraperitoneal administration of nicotine (0.3-2 mg kg-1) or morphine (5-30 mg kg-1) induced dose- and time-dependent increases in the cerebrocortical and plasma concentrations of pregnenolone, progesterone, and allopregnanolone."

[Cdsnuts]

About 85% or so. I completely reverse all my remaining symptoms (mainly mental) when I take the caffeine and niacinamide combo. In the studies it seems that many stimulants actually increase 5AR in the brain and neurosteroids. I switched off caffeine and niacinamide for a little bit because it stimulates my metabolism so much where I would be pounding carbs and sugar down all day and it was kind of a pain while at work. Have been experimenting with pure nicotine in the form of gum and it has a very similar effect to caffeine. Nicotine also increases neurosteroids in the brain.

I just find it so ironic that stimulants were shown to increase 5AR in the brain and when you have PFS,stimulants seem like the devil lol, when you have lack of GABA activity..

Other things, I found to help with mental symptoms was 1500-2 grams of lysine taken in one dose. It lowers serotonin in the brain, which leads to less anxiety and an increase in dopamine.


Sex hormones metabolism in the brain: influence of central acting drugs on 5 alpha-reduction in rat diencephalon. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/477622)

"Diencephalon 5 alpha-reductase activity showed a highly significant increase (p less than 0.01) after a single administration of carbamazepine, reserpine, diazepam, phenytoin, phenobarbital or disulfiram. A significant increase (p less than 0.05) was also found after a single administration of methylphenidate, caffeine or methamphetamine. Plasma testosterone decreased concurrently after administration of all these agents, except diazepam. Diencephalon enzyme activity decreased significantly after repeated disulfiram administrations (p less than 0.01) but increased significantly after methamphetamine administrations (p less than 0.05). Plasma testosterone showed a tendency to decrease after repeated methamphetamine administrations but tended to increase after repeated disulfiram administrations."

Tubzy.....the walking encyclopedia of Swole Source!

[K8668B]

This forum is such beautiful wisdom! In the last 6 months ive literally become the master of my own mind and body because of this place. I haven't even gotten to the prohormones yet, but I can get this way too just from natural adrenaline sometimes. Had it last night. Carb back loaded and still went to bed at a normal hour, and even felt euphoric and calm. Back in the day I wouldve went without the carbs, and had a terrible sleep and messed up sleep schedule and bad anxiety!

[biatch]

What Tubzy has said so far is all right.
I am one of the few guys who partecipated at the Roberto Melcangi's study (biologist doctor) about 5 alpha inibitor (Finasteride).
He did us different tests and basically came out what Tubzy is saying and that our 5 alpha reductase has been downregulated.
I can not attach the study on here cause it is too big, but you can find the PDF file around internet.
By the way we got different tests including a biopsy of genital skin, showing an elevated number of Androgen receptors compared to normal men, and sample of the liquid located between the skull and the brain and it came out that we have a neurosteroids insufficiency with missing DHT, PREGNENOLONE and all the chain coming from it including GABA... although in the blood it does not appear anything at all. So what blood shows is different from the way tissues are working.
But we all already know this info, so no big news....and that's the reason we are on the protocol!!

[TubZy]

What Tubzy has said so far is all right.
I am one of the few guys who partecipated at the Roberto Melcangi's study (biologist doctor) about 5 alpha inibitor (Finasteride).
He did us different tests and basically came out what Tubzy is saying and that our 5 alpha reductase has been downregulated.
I can not attach the study on here cause it is too big, but you can find the PDF file around internet.
By the way we got different tests including a biopsy of genital skin, showing an elevated number of Androgen receptors compared to normal men, and sample of the liquid located between the skull and the brain and it came out that we have a neurosteroids insufficiency with missing DHT, PREGNENOLONE and all the chain coming from it including GABA... although in the blood it does not appear anything at all. So what blood shows is different from the way tissues are working.
But we all already know this info, so no big news....and that's the reason we are on the protocol!!

It's a neurological condition, rather than an endocrine which most people think. Hence the reason why, a lot of prohormones work so well, specifically R andro, which includes the active ingredient, androsterone. Androsterone is a neurosteroid, and in many cases acts very similar to allopreg (GABA-A agonist etc.). Androsterone can also convert into allopreg downstream and vice versa. Prohormones also stimulate the enzymes of the body's natural pathways. T3 can also help regulate 5AR in the brain, but androsterone can take the place of T3 so that just could be another reason of why it also help.

If it was a soley an endocrine condition, TRT or proviron/masteron etc. would solve the issues immediately, except 5AR I and II act on inverse relationships meaning circulating serum androgens are different compared to the levels found in the CNS (brain). Just like how PFS suffers have normal circulating androgens like DHT and T, but still unbearable sides.

I forgot to mention nicotine is anti estrogenic and is pro DHT as well...very pro metabolic. Caffeine also increases DHT in the brain.

Nicotine and androsterone (r andro) seem to work in synergy too.

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/androsterone-inhibits-catecholamines-adrenaline-noradrenaline.12609/

[Cdsnuts]

It's a neurological condition, rather than an endocrine which most people think. Hence the reason why, a lot of prohormones work so well, specifically R andro, which includes the active ingredient, androsterone. Androsterone is a neurosteroid, and in many cases acts very similar to allopreg (GABA-A agonist etc.). Androsterone can also convert into allopreg downstream and vice versa. Prohormones also stimulate the enzymes of the body's natural pathways. T3 can also help regulate 5AR in the brain, but androsterone can take the place of T3 so that just could be another reason of why it also help.

If it was a soley an endocrine condition, TRT or proviron/masteron etc. would solve the issues immediately, except 5AR I and II act on inverse relationships meaning circulating serum androgens are different compared to the levels found in the CNS (brain). Just like how PFS suffers have normal circulating androgens like DHT and T, but still unbearable sides.

I forgot to mention nicotine is anti estrogenic and is pro DHT as well...very pro metabolic. Caffeine also increases DHT in the brain.

Nicotine and androsterone (r andro) seem to work in synergy too.

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/androsterone-inhibits-catecholamines-adrenaline-noradrenaline.12609/

This has been my take on it since the beginning. I've always said it was more neurological then anything, simply based on my own horrible experience.

That being said, there are some guys who do not experience any neurological sides at all, yet they are still plagued with sides. For some reason their brains are effected but they don't feel the typical neuro-sides, just sexual. I always thought that it was amazing that their brains could be so affected yet not present them with any mental symptoms.

I believe English put it best in the sticky I created in this section.

[biatch]

Tubzy, have you ever run R Andro?
If yes or if not, why do not give it a run?

[TubZy]

Tubzy, have you ever run R Andro?
If yes or if not, why do not give it a run?

Yup, about a year ago Prohormone cycle (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/post-finasteride-syndrome/3047-prohormone-cycle.html)

Yes, I'm debating on giving it another run with 4 andro, as for now, still experimenting with nicotine/niacinamide, may even combine them.

[K8668B]

For what it's worth, I didn't really feel ready either. And the first day and a half felt pretty weird/anxious. But now it's smoothed out and I definitely feel the best I've felt in months. I'm just saying I wouldn't get caught up in waiting and waiting until you feel perfectly ready. I'd take the plunge sooner rather than later.


I can agree with that! Definitely! For me personally, propecia truly really only hit me with the sexual sides. I suppose i had other sides too, like i mentioned in the beginning, but ive already corrected all of them. Those can easily be corrected simply through better health and maintenance (which i got and learned from this protocol). But now that ive fasted 100%, finally, im making one more natural run in the gym, going to get to that same old level i got to, while cycling herbs and doing everything else, and THEN jump on the prohormone. Should be 2-3 months for me. Maybe less. Then not only i can track my sexual progress, but also my strength gains and size/weight gain as well. been training naturally for over a decade. but was i, or any of us, EVER NATURAL? We were UNDER natural simply by taking propecia and other poisons. for being UNDER natural, i think i was still able to reach a decent level.

But agreed, in a sense you want to have your natural levels up as high as they can before running the prohormone, but dont wait and wait like you said.

We will all be becoming truly natural for the first time ever!

Glad youre feeling good bro!

[TubZy]

This has been my take on it since the beginning. I've always said it was more neurological then anything, simply based on my own horrible experience.

That being said, there are some guys who do not experience any neurological sides at all, yet they are still plagued with sides. For some reason their brains are effected but they don't feel the typical neuro-sides, just sexual. I always thought that it was amazing that their brains could be so affected yet not present them with any mental symptoms.

I believe English put it best in the sticky I created in this section.

Correct, but that is the tricky part. Both 5AR I and II operate on different ratios and relationships. So by increasing DHT by say, taking proviron will improve circulating androgens in serum in can help with some of the physical sides, but if you also suffer from mental sides it can make you feel worse (due to the inverse relationship of 5AR in the brain), which happens in the case with me.

I was going nuts and trying anything DHT derived and I was getting shredded and was in great physical shape, but mentally I felt worse, anxiety was more intense etc.

When I just start focusing on the brain part and cutting everything else out, I improved much quicker. Even though androsterone can increase DHT, it also acts in the brain, that is how it can help both areas without making you feel worse. All of these DHT derivatives and even TRT, can help improve some areas but either most people feel worse or eventually crash on them and are left even in a worse situation with suppressed natural levels when stopping.

Same thing with caffeine. Caffeine is androgenic, but it also acts in the brain as well.

DHEA for me is a precursor to DHT and DHEA makes me feel worse unless I take it in combo with something like progesterone.

Insulin increases expression of 5AR I, so that is why I think fasting can help some people, because insulin is released when you eat obviously, although for me I feel much better running on plenty of glucose with metabolic stimulants instead.

Stimulatory effect of insulin on 5alpha-reductase type 1 (SRD5A1) expression through an Akt-dependent pathway in ovarian granulosa cells. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20810561)


Basically ALL stimulants seems to increase 5AR in the brain (even meth lol), so I even looked into yohimbe which is also another common stim and found this. Yohimbe acts very similar to caffeine in the brain.


Raising norepinephrine : Neurotransmitters Neurosteroids (http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2295)

"YOHIMBE: You see, I have been suffering the sexual sides for over a year now. I have tried Cialis, Viagra, Levitra. they all work to get me an erection, but the sex drive is not there. So I decide to try Yohimbe. WOW. gets me an erection just as good as, if not better than any PDE5 inhibitor AND my sex drive is up. I get loads of precum when im aroused on yohimbe, something that viagra, cialis etc. failed to ever do. and not only that, but the effects of the yohimbe are lasting throughout the week. Only negative thing about this is that it get my heart beating incredibly fast and hard and i get serious nausea.

Coffee: I rarely drink coffee, but when i do i notice that i get surprisingly aroused for a couple of hours. It too, gives me strong erections and precum, which i rarely ever get to begin with. "

[Cdsnuts]

Correct, but that is the tricky part. Both 5AR I and II operate on different ratios and relationships. So by increasing DHT by say, taking proviron will improve circulating androgens in serum in can help with some of the physical sides, but if you also suffer from mental sides it can make you feel worse (due to the inverse relationship of 5AR in the brain), which happens in the case with me.

I was going nuts and trying anything DHT derived and I was getting shredded and was in great physical shape, but mentally I felt worse, anxiety was more intense etc.

When I just start focusing on the brain part and cutting everything else out, I improved much quicker. Even though androsterone can increase DHT, it also acts in the brain, that is how it can help both areas without making you feel worse. All of these DHT derivatives and even TRT, can help improve some areas but either most people feel worse or eventually crash on them and are left even in a worse situation with suppressed natural levels when stopping.

Same thing with caffeine. Caffeine is androgenic, but it also acts in the brain as well.

DHEA for me is a precursor to DHT and DHEA makes me feel worse unless I take it in combo with something like progesterone.

Insulin increases expression of 5AR I, so that is why I think fasting can help some people, because insulin is released when you eat obviously, although for me I feel much better running on plenty of glucose with metabolic stimulants instead.

Stimulatory effect of insulin on 5alpha-reductase type 1 (SRD5A1) expression through an Akt-dependent pathway in ovarian granulosa cells. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20810561)


Basically ALL stimulants seems to increase 5AR in the brain (even meth lol), so I even looked into yohimbe which is also another common stim and found this. Yohimbe acts very similar to caffeine in the brain.


Raising norepinephrine : Neurotransmitters Neurosteroids (http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2295)

"YOHIMBE: You see, I have been suffering the sexual sides for over a year now. I have tried Cialis, Viagra, Levitra. they all work to get me an erection, but the sex drive is not there. So I decide to try Yohimbe. WOW. gets me an erection just as good as, if not better than any PDE5 inhibitor AND my sex drive is up. I get loads of precum when im aroused on yohimbe, something that viagra, cialis etc. failed to ever do. and not only that, but the effects of the yohimbe are lasting throughout the week. Only negative thing about this is that it get my heart beating incredibly fast and hard and i get serious nausea.

Coffee: I rarely drink coffee, but when i do i notice that i get surprisingly aroused for a couple of hours. It too, gives me strong erections and precum, which i rarely ever get to begin with. "

It is for these reasons prohormones are better then taking the target hormone directly.

- - - Updated - - -


Yup, about a year ago Prohormone cycle (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/post-finasteride-syndrome/3047-prohormone-cycle.html)

Yes, I'm debating on giving it another run with 4 andro, as for now, still experimenting with nicotine/niacinamide, may even combine them.

You should run them all together.....

[Durantia37]

I'm surprised you've only done one cycle of Andro, Tubzy. Now that I've gotten a taste I can't imagine only doing this once.

I know you've probably explained this before, but if someone wanted to do the caffeine/niacinamide combo, what would good beginner's doses be?

[Maxout777]

I'm surprised you've only done one cycle of Andro, Tubzy. Now that I've gotten a taste I can't imagine only doing this once.

I know you've probably explained this before, but if someone wanted to do the caffeine/niacinamide combo, what would good beginner's doses be?

500 mg niacinamide, 325 mg aspirin, 200mg caffeine (adjust caffeine from there). I think 400-600mg is the sweet spot for most from what I've read.

[Durantia37]

500 mg niacinamide, 325 mg aspirin, 200mg caffeine (adjust caffeine from there). I think 400-600mg is the sweet spot for most from what I've read.

Okay, so you do all three at once? Have you tried it personally?

[Maxout777]

Okay, so you do all three at once? Have you tried it personally?

Yes, all at once. And yes, I've tried it personally. It works. You'll be pleasantly surprised if you've been experiencing any thyroid issues. It's all natural as well, so you can't ask for much more than that.

[Durantia37]

It's been a week since starting the cycle, so just to update: Carbs, for me, pretty much completely got rid of the anxiety I experienced earlier. I still feel a little over stimulated at times, but it's not unbearable. Nightmares haven't gone away, but I still haven't tried to straight up demolish carbs before bed yet.

I'm now doing 300mg, and I'll probably end up doing 400mh and staying there until the end of the cycle.

I feel the most normal I've felt in a long-ass time. I've been wanting to do stuff on weekends again and I've even been texting some of my old side chicks. Libido and penis size/health are the best they've been since probably January.

I'm way fucking stronger in the gym, but I guess that goes without saying. Energy still up, almost hard to fall asleep, but no serious problems. Terrible nightmares, again. Very easy to get up in the morning with all the energy.

Ridiculously vascular like nothing I've ever experienced. Keep feeling my muscles all day in disbelief.

I've also experienced the calm alpha feeling others have described. The herbs give me bad roid rage (which made me break my windshield with my fist at one point), but with this stuff I feel completely in control and able to make smooth precise decisions under stress.

All in all, very very satisfied, but I'm dreading coming off, because I worry that almost all the progress is going to go away.

[Cdsnuts]

It's been a week since starting the cycle, so just to update: Carbs, for me, pretty much completely got rid of the anxiety I experienced earlier. I still feel a little over stimulated at times, but it's not unbearable. Nightmares haven't gone away, but I still haven't tried to straight up demolish carbs before bed yet.

I'm now doing 300mg, and I'll probably end up doing 400mh and staying there until the end of the cycle.

I feel the most normal I've felt in a long-ass time. I've been wanting to do stuff on weekends again and I've even been texting some of my old side chicks. Libido and penis size/health are the best they've been since probably January.

I'm way fucking stronger in the gym, but I guess that goes without saying. Energy still up, almost hard to fall asleep, but no serious problems. Terrible nightmares, again. Very easy to get up in the morning with all the energy.

Ridiculously vascular like nothing I've ever experienced. Keep feeling my muscles all day in disbelief.

I've also experienced the calm alpha feeling others have described. The herbs give me bad roid rage (which made me break my windshield with my fist at one point), but with this stuff I feel completely in control and able to make smooth precise decisions under stress.

All in all, very very satisfied, but I'm dreading coming off, because I worry that almost all the progress is going to go away.

And that's the beauty of it. You will lose alot of the effects, that goes without saying, but you are also going to experience a higher baseline then before the cycle. The cycle it'self is fun no doubt, but the increase in baseline is the main reason for continued cycling.

As you go through the motions of prohormone cycles, cycling the herbs and the whole protocol in general, life will get easier and easier and your bad and miserable days will become less and less.

Now that you've jumped on the prohormone train, these things will increase in speed and you will become exponentially better.

I'm glad you decided to stick with it. You'll see exactly what I mean. You've just hit the accelerator on the healing train.

[Durantia37]

And that's the beauty of it. You will lose alot of the effects, that goes without saying, but you are also going to experience a higher baseline then before the cycle. The cycle it'self is fun no doubt, but the increase in baseline is the main reason for continued cycling.

As you go through the motions of prohormone cycles, cycling the herbs and the whole protocol in general, life will get easier and easier and your bad and miserable days will become less and less.

Now that you've jumped on the prohormone train, these things will increase in speed and you will become exponentially better.

I'm glad you decided to stick with it. You'll see exactly what I mean. You've just hit the accelerator on the healing train.

It seems like another benefit of doing the prohormone is the fact that you get a six-week break from the herbs each time. Shouldn't this theoretically make them pack a stronger punch? Then, after eight or so weeks when their effects might start to wane, you're back on the Andro.

[DrivenToRecover]

And that's the beauty of it. You will lose alot of the effects, that goes without saying, but you are also going to experience a higher baseline then before the cycle. The cycle it'self is fun no doubt, but the increase in baseline is the main reason for continued cycling.

As you go through the motions of prohormone cycles, cycling the herbs and the whole protocol in general, life will get easier and easier and your bad and miserable days will become less and less.

Now that you've jumped on the prohormone train, these things will increase in speed and you will become exponentially better.

I'm glad you decided to stick with it. You'll see exactly what I mean. You've just hit the accelerator on the healing train.

This. The thing that's so great about it is that you don't have to be fully recovered to enjoy your life again. You are hitting on so many areas of your body and psychology that are good for you that you start feeling great in some ways before fully healed.

[Cdsnuts]

It seems like another benefit of doing the prohormone is the fact that you get a six-week break from the herbs each time. Shouldn't this theoretically make them pack a stronger punch? Then, after eight or so weeks when their effects might start to wane, you're back on the Andro.

That's another way to look at it, sure. I never get to a point where the herbs lose their magic though. How many of them are you cycling?

[Durantia37]

I'm cycling all of them. They were waning a bit right before I got on the prohormone, but that might have been because I was expending way more energy than I had been earlier in recovery (sometimes doing 10hrs of manual labor a day, etc.).

I was also just worried that they might wane regardless of lifestyle after like a year, but this seems like insurance against that.

[Cdsnuts]

I'm cycling all of them. They were waning a bit right before I got on the prohormone, but that might have been because I was expending way more energy than I had been earlier in recovery (sometimes doing 10hrs of manual labor a day, etc.).

I was also just worried that they might wane regardless of lifestyle after like a year, but this seems like insurance against that.

They don't wane. You may just not feel it as much once you become used to the place they bring you, but they certainly don't stop working, that's for sure.

In regards to this, you can always try upping the doses or playing around with the dosing scheme.

[Durantia37]

Yeah, I've played around with it a little. I have what I think is the optimal routine going, but it's more complicated than anyone would want to hear.

[Durantia37]

This. The thing that's so great about it is that you don't have to be fully recovered to enjoy your life again. You are hitting on so many areas of your body and psychology that are good for you that you start feeling great in some ways before fully healed.

Totally agreed. I can count on feeling as ridiculously amazing as ive ever felt for like 12 cumulative hours a week. How is your recovery, Driven?

[K8668B]

Another thing you said, durantia, that i thought was pretty cool, that besides all the pfs related gains youre making on R-andro, you said that your strength levels on the gym have gone WAY UP!

That is so cool! I figured something like r andro would be alot more mild towards the strength gains. Imagine adding 35-50lbs on your benchpress in the gym or something like that! That would be sweet!

[Durantia37]

I've never taken these kinds of compounds before, so I have nothing to compare it to, but I'm definitely a good 10% stronger. I first noticed when I was doing pull-ups. I seem to have both greater muscle strength and muscle endurance, but I haven't pushed too hard to avoid injuries.

[TubZy]

500 mg niacinamide, 325 mg aspirin, 200mg caffeine (adjust caffeine from there). I think 400-600mg is the sweet spot for most from what I've read.

Thanks, see above Durantia.

Also too, it is not just for thyroid only but it actually has many other benefits like lower inflammation, immune system benefits, skin benefits, hormone benefits, digestion, neuro protective, anti aging etc.

It is similar to R andro in the sense of it being a thyroid "surrogate". Niacinamide increases NAD levels which is the coenzyme for all neurosteroid and steroid production in the body and brain so when you take it with caffeine which increases neurosteroids and DHT in the brain the result is even greater than just taking caffeine alone. The aspirin acts like a "regulator" per say in keeping everything in check like caffeine from turning into a stress response, since aspirin lowers cortisol/adrenaline which caffeine can increase when there is insufficient glucose. Aspirin also has anti estrogenic and pro testosterone and pro metabolic benefits on top of that including increasing ATP in the brain and preventing and reversing cancer.

[TubZy]

And also don't assume I'm saying NSAIDs are good. NSAIDs are bad except for aspirin as it acts differently than all of the other NSAIDs.

[Snell1234]

Has anyone got back acne from using r andro? I've got a bit of back acne lately which I put down to the pine pollen tincture I have been using quite liberally. Not that I care about it, but more curious to see if this is common from taking more of these hormones and why it would occur.

[Cdsnuts]

Has anyone got back acne from using r andro? I've got a bit of back acne lately which I put down to the pine pollen tincture I have been using quite liberally. Not that I care about it, but more curious to see if this is common from taking more of these hormones and why it would occur.

This is directly related to an increase in androgens. Don't sweat it.

[Snell1234]

I thought so - was actually happy about it. Did you get this from the r andro? As the pine pollen tincture contains androsterone, which is similar to r andro, but also in addition testosterone, dhea and androstenedione. Was wanting to try to pinpoint acne in general to a specific hormone. More that I was wanting to make sure it wasn't due to estrogen.

[Durantia37]

I haven't experienced any back acne, but I've never had it. I have experienced a little hair loss though.

[Durantia37]

I think I'm definitely starting to get some ball shrinkage. Is this something to worry about?

[Cdsnuts]

I think I'm definitely starting to get some ball shrinkage. Is this something to worry about?
I've run cycles of 12 weeks and more and have never experienced any shrinkage on these compounds

That's not to say a little bit of shut down shouldn't be expected but I highly doubt it's happening to you after a week or so

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Swill]

I had some back acne and also some spots on my face, and also my face has come out in spots and got oilier... don't sweat it, think of it as hitting puberty again ;) My hair also sheds like crazy on R Andro

[Durantia37]

I know this might sound dumb, but I'm considering stopping this cycle after two weeks, just so I can be absolutely sure that I'm not being suppressed. I felt like my balls were even aching a little last night. The suppression thing freaks me out.

If everything goes back to normal, I'll be more confident doing longer cycles from here on out.

Here's the crazy part: I've gotten all the results and side effects I've been talking about from only 200mg/ day. I did 300 for a couple days, but it was too extreme.

I bought five bottles when it was on sale, so I can do like 5 million cycles if 200mg is all it takes.

[Maxout777]

I know this might sound dumb, but I'm considering stopping this cycle after two weeks, just so I can be absolutely sure that I'm not being suppressed. I felt like my balls were even aching a little last night. The suppression thing freaks me out.

If everything goes back to normal, I'll be more confident doing longer cycles from here on out.

Here's the crazy part: I've gotten all the results and side effects I've been talking about from only 200mg/ day. I did 300 for a couple days, but it was too extreme.

I bought five bottles when it was on sale, so I can do like 5 million cycles if 200mg is all it takes.

I experienced ball shrinkage (that came and went depending on whether I was in an upswing or downswing) in general with PFS. There's a good chance that you could just be going through this....the reason I say that is I ran this stuff at 400 mg/day and up to 600/mg a day, and currently running Andro Hard (Epi Andro/R-Andro mix) at 600 mg/day each with no suppression. I'd hate to see you abort the gains by getting in your own head. Obviously, do what's best for you - but I believe if you keep running it, you'll be fine.

[coppersocks]

I know this might sound dumb, but I'm considering stopping this cycle after two weeks, just so I can be absolutely sure that I'm not being suppressed. I felt like my balls were even aching a little last night. The suppression thing freaks me out.

If everything goes back to normal, I'll be more confident doing longer cycles from here on out.

Here's the crazy part: I've gotten all the results and side effects I've been talking about from only 200mg/ day. I did 300 for a couple days, but it was too extreme.

I bought five bottles when it was on sale, so I can do like 5 million cycles if 200mg is all it takes.
I'm gonna agree with Max here. I've been on it for a bit longer than you at 400mg/day and haven't experienced any sides other than shedding. I think you should absolutely make sure that it's not in your head before jumping ship. The amount of things that my brain has convinced me of in regards to my health that weren't true since I've had PFS is crazy.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[biatch]

If you are sure about the ball shrinkage you are having coming from R andro, I would stop it and in case run it again once you are fine again.
I mean, you have time to try it again, now, in 1 week, in 2 weeks, in one month etc... why continuing to run it now if you feel it is suppressing you?
Just be sure that is a real effect coming from R andro.

[Durantia37]

I've also had ball shrinkage from PFS, but this is a little different. It feels like there's less fluid in my sack. This happened pretty much from the first day I took the Andro, so I doubt it's anything to worry about, but I'd rather just be safe.

[Swill]

I've also had ball shrinkage from PFS, but this is a little different. It feels like there's less fluid in my sack. This happened pretty much from the first day I took the Andro, so I doubt it's anything to worry about, but I'd rather just be safe.

You gotta do what you gotta do bro, just be sure you're not mindfucking yourself. I truly don't believe for a second you are doing yourself any kind of lasting harm with these supplements, and any form of suppression would be reversed quickly with some herbs dosing after the cycle. Particularly at the very low dose you are running.

I'm just concerned that you may not have taken this long enough to have any kind of long term benefit in terms of enzyme generation.

I'm with max that id stay the course in your case and get out of your head. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

[Snell1234]

If it happened Day 1, you'd think it's unlikely to be suppression related. It seems more likely to be something else hormonally.

But it is your body - you need to be comfortable with what you are putting into it.

[Snell1234]

You gotta do what you gotta do bro, just be sure you're not mindfucking yourself. I truly don't believe for a second you are doing yourself any kind of lasting harm with these supplements, and any form of suppression would be reversed quickly with some herbs dosing after the cycle. Particularly at the very low dose you are running.

I'm just concerned that you may not have taken this long enough to have any kind of long term benefit in terms of enzyme generation.

I'm with max that id stay the course in your case and get out of your head. But you gotta do what you gotta do.
The ezyme regeneration you speak of is what seems to make it so effective. It makes sense- androsterone converting to dht which then causes an increase in the 5 alpha reductase enzymes.

At what point on the cycle do you think you really felt like some permanent benefits were occurring?

[Swill]

The ezyme regeneration you speak of is what seems to make it so effective. It makes sense- androsterone converting to dht which then causes an increase in the 5 alpha reductase enzymes.

At what point on the cycle do you think you really felt like some permanent benefits were occurring?

I didn't in truth, I had no guarantee that it would stick after i stopped aside from logic.

What I can say is that I haven't felt like I did during my cycle since around November 2012... it was like a switch was flicked, like an empty tank was filled. I've had incremental general benefits from all other parts of the protocol, but this was a sledgehammer for me, it was exactly what I was missing.

I still felt amazing for over 3 weeks after finishing the cycle, but admit I have dropped off a bit to what I was but am still above baseline compared to before cycle definitely. My products are on order and I'm gonna be going again In a couple weeks, with the r andro and the 4-dhea added in, and for 12 weeks as opposed to 6, because I think a longer cycle will do more for me in terms of enzyme generation will lead to more chance of it holding... if I recall correctly cd did a 16 week cycle at one point. I'm not really concerned about the suppression, it will be worth the trade off and I'll be back firing in that regard after a few weeks herb rotation as PCT I'm sure.

I know I'm a broken record but just want to state that 2 other DHT based pro hormones did nothing for me, one of which (PP's androhard v3) helped a shit tonne of people. My point is if you don't respond to the R, maybe you will to another product, or even the same product if you come back to it further down the line.

[Snell1234]

Sounds like a solid plan. A few cycles should do the trick and get you to where you need to be.

Out of curiousity, did you ever use the pine pollen tincture and if you did, is it in any way comparable to the r andro?

[Durantia37]

Thanks for the advice guys. I guess I'll just be a little more bold and do four weeks. Not like I have all that much to lose.

[K8668B]

I'm a little bit late here. But ive been meaning to give my 2 cents.

I definitely agree with Maxout.

I dont think something as mild as super R-andro would cause ball shrinkage. I think that what youre experiencing could just be a typical PFS downswing as far as ball size.

Keep going!

[Swill]

Sounds like a solid plan. A few cycles should do the trick and get you to where you need to be.

Out of curiousity, did you ever use the pine pollen tincture and if you did, is it in any way comparable to the r andro?

I do use the tincture and it was great for what it is on my rotation, but the effect I get from the R Andro is incomparable... it's on a completely different level

[Durantia37]

I do use the tincture and it was great for what it is on my rotation, but the effect I get from the R Andro is incomparable... it's on a completely different level

Agreed, the tincture is great, but no comparison.

[TubZy]

It doesn't cause suppression there was a study with 150mg daily with no suppression. I even took up to 900mg at one point for a few weeks and experienced no suppression either.

There could be other similar symptoms of suppression like symptoms like under eating and tanking your estrogen. Andro can do both of those. That is why 4 andro is good to sack it with R andro because you still get a small amount of estrogen that gets converted from the 4 andro which can help keep balance if it drops too low.

[Snell1234]

How are you feeling in it otherwise durantia?

[Durantia37]

How are you feeling in it otherwise durantia?

I would say that 90% of the time it feels fucking amazing and 10% of the time you feel like shit - like your body is worn out from being on cycle. But totally worth it.

If I don't run into suppression issues, I'd consider this the closest thing to a silver bullet there is for PFS.

It puts you in a good mood, it gives you self-confidence, it pumps your muscles up, it ramps up your libido, and I've consistently had the best erections I've had in months and months. You have ups and downs, but from a much higher baseline.

I've been hanging out with girls again, and I think it's possible I'll have sex even on this first cycle. 200mg Andro combined with the bathmate is enough for me to feel 80% recovered sexually. Before Andro I was at like 20-25%.

[Cdsnuts]

I would say that 90% of the time it feels fucking amazing and 10% of the time you feel like shit - like your body is worn out from being on cycle. But totally worth it.

If I don't run into suppression issues, I'd consider this the closest thing to a silver bullet there is for PFS.

It puts you in a good mood, it gives you self-confidence, it pumps your muscles up, it ramps up your libido, and I've consistently had the best erections I've had in months and months. You have ups and downs, but from a much higher baseline.

I've been hanging out with girls again, and I think it's possible I'll have sex even on this first cycle. 200mg Andro combined with the bathmate is enough for me to feel 80% recovered sexually. Before Andro I was at like 20-25%.

Good deal.

Keep at it.

Cycle, herbs, cycle, etc.

You'll get there.

[K8668B]

I would say that 90% of the time it feels fucking amazing and 10% of the time you feel like shit - like your body is worn out from being on cycle. But totally worth it.

If I don't run into suppression issues, I'd consider this the closest thing to a silver bullet there is for PFS.

It puts you in a good mood, it gives you self-confidence, it pumps your muscles up, it ramps up your libido, and I've consistently had the best erections I've had in months and months. You have ups and downs, but from a much higher baseline.

I've been hanging out with girls again, and I think it's possible I'll have sex even on this first cycle. 200mg Andro combined with the bathmate is enough for me to feel 80% recovered sexually. Before Andro I was at like 20-25%.

I love this post right here! I can tell you were really feeling ALIVE as you wrote it! I know that feeling too! Im loving R-andro already and i havent even tried it yet!

[Snell1234]

How is the cycle coming along durantia?

[Durantia37]

How is the cycle coming along durantia?

Everything is going pretty smoothly. I'm doing 400mg now, and I'm about 2.5 weeks in. Nothing quite as crazy awesome as I'd hoped has happened, but I've sustained the same baseline I was describing after week 1. I was hoping to keep climbing and climbing, but it looks like I've gotten as high as I'm gonna go on this cycle.

Main benefits have been sexual and physical. My mood is better, but I've not made much mental progress on cycle. Early on I felt like it was helping mentally, but I'm not so sure anymore. Sexual and physical benefits are completely undeniable though.

I'm definitely going to be cycling as long and often as I possibly can during my recovery.

[Cdsnuts]

Everything is going pretty smoothly. I'm doing 400mg now, and I'm about 2.5 weeks in. Nothing quite as crazy awesome as I'd hoped has happened, but I've sustained the same baseline I was describing after week 1. I was hoping to keep climbing and climbing, but it looks like I've gotten as high as I'm gonna go on this cycle.

Main benefits have been sexual and physical. My mood is better, but I've not made much mental progress on cycle. Early on I felt like it was helping mentally, but I'm not so sure anymore. Sexual and physical benefits are completely undeniable though.

I'm definitely going to be cycling as long and often as I possibly can during my recovery.

Don't count out an increase in baseline just yet. You're only two weeks or so in and things don't really "kick in" until about week three or four. You will notice a definite "bump" around that time period.

[Durantia37]

Don't count out an increase in baseline just yet. You're only two weeks or so in and things don't really "kick in" until about week three or four. You will notice a definite "bump" around that time period.

I'm basically three weeks in now, and yeah...you were right. Lol.

[Durantia37]

I experienced ball shrinkage (that came and went depending on whether I was in an upswing or downswing) in general with PFS. There's a good chance that you could just be going through this....the reason I say that is I ran this stuff at 400 mg/day and up to 600/mg a day, and currently running Andro Hard (Epi Andro/R-Andro mix) at 600 mg/day each with no suppression. I'd hate to see you abort the gains by getting in your own head. Obviously, do what's best for you - but I believe if you keep running it, you'll be fine.

How is Andro Hard going? How does it to compare to just R-Andro?

[Maxout777]

How is Andro Hard going? How does it to compare to just R-Andro?

I love it so far. Maybe I'm just a good responder to the Epi Andro that's also in Andro Hard, but I believe I may like it better than R Andro.

[Durantia37]

I love it so far. Maybe I'm just a good responder to the Epi Andro that's also in Andro Hard, but I believe I may like it better than R Andro.

Awesome..Does it feel any different or does it just seem a little stronger?

[Maxout777]

Awesome..Does it feel any different or does it just seem a little stronger?


Just feels like a stronger, more enhanced alpha male response. Muscles are harder and I'm stronger for sure. This could also be because it's my first cycle with no PFS baggage, so take it for what it's worth lol

[Durantia37]

Just feels like a stronger, more enhanced alpha male response. Muscles are harder and I'm stronger for sure. This could also be because it's my first cycle with no PFS baggage, so take it for what it's worth lol

Haha yeah that's what I was thinking..Okay, last question: what's your favorite stack that you've done? High dose andro, R-Andro 4-Andro combo, or Andro and Epi? I'll probly try them all because this stuff is fun as hell, but just curious.

[biatch]

Hey durantia, what about the shrinkage you noticed at the beginning? And what about the anxious? You Said anxious disappeared by increasing carbs..How many carbs and proteins are you consuming per day?

[Durantia37]

Hey durantia, what about the shrinkage you noticed at the beginning? And what about the anxious? You Said anxious disappeared by increasing carbs..How many carbs and proteins are you consuming per day?

I think I was just being paranoid. They're definitely not big right now, but they're not significantly smaller than they were before the cycle. The anxiety has pretty much been controlled by carbs and niacinamide. However, being on cycle does kind of put you in a hyper-stimulated state at times. You just get used to it after awhile.

I have no idea the actual numbers I'm afraid. I drink a liter of orange juice, a couple glasses of milk, and eat a lot of fruit every day. And protein is pretty hard to avoid on a paleo diet. You'll just have to experiment a little.

[Maxout777]

Haha yeah that's what I was thinking..Okay, last question: what's your favorite stack that you've done? High dose andro, R-Andro 4-Andro combo, or Andro and Epi? I'll probly try them all because this stuff is fun as hell, but just curious.
My favorite so far has been Andro Hard and 4 Andro which I'm currently running. Can't suggest 4 Andro stacked enough. Helps mitigate any low E possibilities. Also, gives an even nicer testosterone/alpha feeling.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[biatch]

Whats up Durantia, how are you going? Still on R andro or dropped it?

[Durantia37]

Whats up Durantia, how are you going? Still on R andro or dropped it?

I ended up cutting a little short at 3.5 weeks, because the shitty, body-worn-out-from-being-on-cycle feeling I described earlier was getting to be more and more of a continuous state. I took this as a sign to come off. I'll go longer next time if my body lets me.

I've been off for four days now and feel great, maybe even better than when I was on cycle. Some of the physical and sexual benefits tapered off a little, obviously, but mentally I feel the best I have since January. Can't wait for my next cycle, and can NOT recommend this stuff highly enough.

[Cdsnuts]

I ended up cutting a little short at 3.5 weeks, because the shitty, body-worn-out-from-being-on-cycle feeling I described earlier was getting to be more and more of a continuous state. I took this as a sign to come off. I'll go longer next time if my body lets me.

I've been off for four days now and feel great, maybe even better than when I was on cycle. Some of the physical and sexual benefits tapered off a little, obviously, but mentally I feel the best I have since January. Can't wait for my next cycle, and can NOT recommend this stuff highly enough.
Watch what happens when you go back to the herbs now... You're going to appreciate them so much more

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[markuss]

So I'm running r-andro again and I'm still getting inflamed gums from it... I'm pretty sure it caused gingivitis the last time I took it and don't want to see what a full cycle would end up doing to my gums.. Should I switch to epi-andro? Isn't it not not as effective as androsterone for pfs? I've ran a trt cycle for 3 months in the past and had good results when I came off of it similar to how cd says cycling with r-andro feels. Should I go back to that considering it didn't aggravate my gums?

[Cdsnuts]

So I'm running r-andro again and I'm still getting inflamed gums from it... I'm pretty sure it caused gingivitis the last time I took it and don't want to see what a full cycle would end up doing to my gums.. Should I switch to epi-andro? Isn't it not not as effective as androsterone for pfs? I've ran a trt cycle for 3 months in the past and had good results when I came off of it similar to how cd says cycling with r-andro feels. Should I go back to that considering it didn't aggravate my gums?

TRT is not the same as running prohormones. Do some reading on the board.

You're better off jumping on the herbs and cycling as many as you can to get your test up.

It's always shitty in the beginning. Follow what is laid out before you and things will start to get better. Much better.

[TubZy]

So I'm running r-andro again and I'm still getting inflamed gums from it... I'm pretty sure it caused gingivitis the last time I took it and don't want to see what a full cycle would end up doing to my gums.. Should I switch to epi-andro? Isn't it not not as effective as androsterone for pfs? I've ran a trt cycle for 3 months in the past and had good results when I came off of it similar to how cd says cycling with r-andro feels. Should I go back to that considering it didn't aggravate my gums?

Try upping your vitamin C intake significantly. Anything that increase metabolism uses more nutrients, and given androsterone works exactly like T3, it can deplete nutrients quicker if you are under fed, especially when coming from a stress and low metabolic state like PFS. Swollen gums are usually a sign of vitamin C deficiency (i.e. scurvy), increased metabolism causes faster repair and regeneration especially in terms of collagen. So at least try getting in 4 grams a day (or to bowel tolerance and see if the inflammation goes down).

High doses of aspirin did this to me and I thought it was from lack of K2 and blood thinning, but when I added in vitamin C (and some MSM) it relieved it. Aspirin is known to powerfully stimulate metabolism and repair as well.

Lysine, glycine, proline etc. all increase the need for vitamin C greatly due to the actions of collagen repair in the body. Linus Pauling talked about this too in his research in regards to heart health for repairing veins and arteries along with gum health (also collagen related). So by adding in a compound without the co-factor or precursor can actually make things worse.

[markuss]

I've been rotating the herbs for the past year and have seen improvements but they've kind of halted. I switched my training program for hypertrophy vs strength which I was focusing on before with kettlebells. I've ordered vitamin c thx for the recommendation, will check back in in a couple months, thx guys

[markuss]

I think i'll have to revisit the r-andro at a later date.. I could barely sleep last night due to a racing heart.. felt like i was on adderall and that was from one r-andro pill in the morning.. back to the herbs.

[Maxout777]

I think i'll have to revisit the r-andro at a later date.. I could barely sleep last night due to a racing heart.. felt like i was on adderall and that was from one r-andro pill in the morning.. back to the herbs.Are you eating a shit ton of carbs during your backload? This sounds like your burning through your glycogen stores and have nothing to run off of.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[markuss]

i had a bean burrito type thing with a glass of juice, is that not enough?

[Maxout777]

i had a bean burrito type thing with a glass of juice, is that not enough?No. Gonna need more complex, gluten free (was this a corn tortilla or a flour tortilla on this burrito) carbs than that. Think potatoes, sweet potatoes, rice, quinoa, gluten free granola mixes, etc.

When on cycle, more is better than less.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[markuss]

it was a corn tortilla, maybe it just wasn't enough food, k i'll try doubling that next time

[TubZy]

Sounds like adrenaline, increase carbs and sugar. If you notice the speed type feeling pound a big glass of orange juice and add some salt and see if it goes away.

[Durantia37]

it was a corn tortilla, maybe it just wasn't enough food, k i'll try doubling that next time

I don't know whether you're trying to do paleo or not, but neither beans nor tortillas are paleo.

[Cdsnuts]

it was a corn tortilla, maybe it just wasn't enough food, k i'll try doubling that next time

Most guys don't eat enough. They think they are, but they're not. I'm still guilty of it and I've been doing this for years.

[biatch]

Durantia, any news after R andro cycle? When next?

[Durantia37]

Durantia, any news after R andro cycle? When next?

I'm still doing pretty good. The prohormone definitely made me level up a bit in the grand scheme of things. Plan on starting another cycle sometime next week.

The only negative things I have to say about cycles are: they gave me horrible nightmares and made me shed hair like crazy. I'm going to add in castor oil, selsun blue, and taurine on this next cycle to combat the hair stuff.

I'll start a new thread for my 2nd cycle next week.

[biatch]

Come on my friend..who cares about hair anymore, play your game and in case once bald do like me...hair transplant, you will recover all your hair in just 8h operation and forever!... let us know how cycle goes.. wish you the best for your second run!

[K8668B]

Sounds like adrenaline, increase carbs and sugar. If you notice the speed type feeling pound a big glass of orange juice and add some salt and see if it goes away.

Ive had that speed/adrenaline type feeling "naturally", even without prohormones, and PFS, many times! I hope this can do not only that, but also go towards sexual recovery. Increasing carbs is the way to go. I read this post when that happened to me even "naturally", and it definitely is the best solution! Levels you out right away. Easy gains right there.

[K8668B]

I'm still doing pretty good. The prohormone definitely made me level up a bit in the grand scheme of things. Plan on starting another cycle sometime next week.

The only negative things I have to say about cycles are: they gave me horrible nightmares and made me shed hair like crazy. I'm going to add in castor oil, selsun blue, and taurine on this next cycle to combat the hair stuff.

I'll start a new thread for my 2nd cycle next week.

Ive been thinking about that. Im looking into buying a bandanna for my future bald head. Who cares about the bald head... ive been shaving my head for the last 4 months.

Sucks about the nightmares.. i would assume if you ate enough carbs before bedtime, it could calm those nightmares down.

[Durantia37]

Come on my friend..who cares about hair anymore, play your game and in case once bald do like me...hair transplant, you will recover all your hair in just 8h operation and forever!... let us know how cycle goes.. wish you the best for your second run!

It's not like I'm doing anything to slow myself down, I'm just trying to not completely obliterate my hair from prohormones. I have extremely mild MPB and could probly go 7-10 more years without having to shave it bare. I'm only gonna do the things I mentioned on cycles (which seem to give your system more resilience).

[K8668B]

Dont even do a hair transplant either! I heard bad shit about it! Plus cdsnuts a long time ago was talking about them in the chat log. Not that i was thinking about one, but he even messaged me about how detrimental they can be. Ill believe it! Bald is beautiful!!! F it!

[biatch]

Why should hair transplant be detrimental??

[TubZy]

It's not like I'm doing anything to slow myself down, I'm just trying to not completely obliterate my hair from prohormones. I have extremely mild MPB and could probly go 7-10 more years without having to shave it bare. I'm only gonna do the things I mentioned on cycles (which seem to give your system more resilience).

Lisuride/metergoline stopped my hair loss along with others. I still have pretty much a full head of hair despite all this in the past.

The thread is here, check the most recent few pages

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/mpb-experimental-treatments.12907/

[biatch]

Lisuride/metergoline stopped my hair loss along with others. I still have pretty much a full head of hair despite all this in the past.

The thread is here

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/mpb-experimental-treatments.12907/
TubZy, my curiosity. Why don't you run a second R andro cycle? I mean it has worked well for you and you're experimenting such a lot of stuff..not easier to run R andro?

[TubZy]

TubZy, my curiosity. Why don't you run a second R andro cycle? I mean it has worked well for you and you're experimenting such a lot of stuff..not easier to run R andro?

I answered this question a million times already, I do better on caffeine and niacinamide. When I add in androsterone I start to over stimulate metabolism and have to pound sugar all day. Go back and read my old posts if you want to the full details.

[jacknap]

lol I like how you call it 'niacinamide'. makes it sounds scary but vitamin b3 is much more approachable.

been using it for 2 days. I get a very strong flush effect and yeah it for sure works heavy on gaba. not doing caffeine yet until I finish some form of cleanse first.

[TubZy]

lol I like how you call it 'niacinamide'. makes it sounds scary but vitamin b3 is much more approachable.

been using it for 2 days. I get a very strong flush effect and yeah it for sure works heavy on gaba. not doing caffeine yet until I finish some form of cleanse first.

Niacin is not niacinamide. Niacinamide doesn't cause a flush and no histamine release and increases NAD levels more compared to plain niacin. That is why I don't just say vitamin B3 lol.

[jacknap]

shit good thing I mentioned it. so vitamin b3 is not useful? is it that much of a difference that I should not use niacin and switch?

I don't personally mind the flush but if it's not good to have i'll switch.

stupid naturopaths at my supplement store like 3rd time they gave me the wrong pills LOL.

using this one Vitamin B3 Niacin | New Roots Herbal (https://newrootsherbal.com/product/id/908)

[Snell1234]

I answered this question a million times already, I do better on caffeine and niacinamide. When I add in androsterone I start to over stimulate metabolism and have to pound sugar all day. Go back and read my old posts if you want to the full details.

Just on this Tubzy, I get the same feelings as you on this. But having pushed through it whilst on the pine pollen tincture (plus the powder), after having come off the tincture and only being on the powder, that over stimulation has gone after about 2 weeks off and my baseline has seriously increased. It might be worth trying to push through that for periods if it means when you come off it your baseline has improved.

[Durantia37]

I also felt overstimulated and not that great mentally on cycle. But it was well worth it.

[Durantia37]

Lisuride/metergoline stopped my hair loss along with others. I still have pretty much a full head of hair despite all this in the past.

The thread is here, check the most recent few pages

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/mpb-experimental-treatments.12907/

Thanks dude. This had ceased to be a concern for a long time, but that prohormone made my hair the worst it's ever been. I'll check out the thread.

[biatch]

I also felt overstimulated and not that great mentally on cycle. But it was well worth it.

Could it depend from the using dosage? Maybe lowering a bit it could fix this issue?

[Durantia37]

Could it depend from the using dosage? Maybe lowering a bit it could fix this issue?

Maybe. But I think being on cycle just makes you feel a little stimulated and that's the way it goes. It's not always a bad thing. I could wake up for work at 6:30am and like hop out of bed fully awake, which was cool.