Androsterone conversion pathways - calling tubzy!

[Snell1234]

So I was interested in the conversion of androsterone to dht (obviously is important for us).

I read this explanation from tubzy:

Androsterone Thyroid Surrogate Androgen | Anabolic Apex (http://anabolicapex.com/2017/02/11/androsterone/)

The pathway to dht from androsterone is clear.

However, where I am confused is that I have been reading that 1-androsterone does not convert to dht or estrogen, but a form of testosterone.

1-Andro vs. 4-Andro (http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/1-andro/)

And then on the other hand we have the r-dhea in super r Andro which does convert to dht but not estrogen.

Tubzy, would you be able to explain the differences here and confirm whether just plain old androsterone does convert to dht?

Also, what implications does this have for the androsterone in pine pollen? Is it of the 1-androsterone form and does not convert to dht, or more like the r-dhea and does convert to dht? Or it converts to dht through other pathways.

[Maxout777]

You do not want to do 1-Andro with PFS. It's known to kill libido and cause lethargy in normal bodybuilders.

[Snell1234]

You do not want to do 1-Andro with PFS. It's known to kill libido and cause lethargy in normal bodybuilders.

Yes agree, that's what I read. I just don't understand the mechanism though how if it is androsterone, it doesn't convert to dht? In the diagram in the first link above, there is only one androsterone, and it eventually converts to dht.

And then following on from that, which type of androsterone is in pine pollen? Does this convert to dht or is it like the 1-androsterone?

[Maxout777]

Yes agree, that's what I read. I just don't understand the mechanism though how if it is androsterone, it doesn't convert to dht? In the diagram in the first link above, there is only one androsterone, and it eventually converts to dht.

And then following on from that, which type of androsterone is in pine pollen? Does this convert to dht or is it like the 1-androsterone?

It's 1-Androsterone/1-DHEA, not just good ole Androsterone. Just like 1-testosterone is a completely different compound than pure ole testosterone. They'll have different conversion pathways because they are completely different compounds.

The compound in pine pollen is pure Androsterone similar to R-Andro, and will convert through the pathway to DHT.

[Snell1234]

It's 1-Androsterone/1-DHEA, not just good ole Androsterone. Just like 1-testosterone is a completely different compound than pure ole testosterone. They'll have different conversion pathways because they are completely different compounds.

The compound in pine pollen is pure Androsterone similar to R-Andro, and will convert through the pathway to DHT.

Thanks, that makes sense. All these terms can get a bit confusing when they all seem so similar to each other.

[K8668B]

That was a good article.

I read about pine pollen still having some traces of androsterone in it, but a very miniscule amount obviously. The article mentioned that the narrator, (or some person, i forget), would take like 9 tbsp daily of pine pollen powder just to feel it. I only take 3 tbsp a day. Would make sense.

[Snell1234]

That was a good article.

I read about pine pollen still having some traces of androsterone in it, but a very miniscule amount obviously. The article mentioned that the narrator, (or some person, i forget), would take like 9 tbsp daily of pine pollen powder just to feel it. I only take 3 tbsp a day. Would make sense.

I think Tubzy wrote it. Did he make a typo saying 9 tablespoons? 9 teaspoons is 10 grams so maybe Tubzy can confirm whether he was taking 9 tablespoons or teaspoons?

[jacknap]

think he was meaning 10 grams. used 10 grams past few days and definitely gave me mad boners.

i still am missing a bit of that brain dick connection but I still get a lot of boners. no fap or porn watching as well. I'd imagine if I was doing no porn watching prepfs for this long though I would just be spontaneously ejaculating lol

[K8668B]

I think Tubzy wrote it. Did he make a typo saying 9 tablespoons? 9 teaspoons is 10 grams so maybe Tubzy can confirm whether he was taking 9 tablespoons or teaspoons?

This is what it said-

"Before I even found out about the benefits of androsterone, a friend (CD} suggested taking some pine pollen for it’s androgenic effects, which he noticed as well. Pine pollen is loaded with a bunch of vitamins and minerals so I had no idea what some of the androgenic effects could be coming from. The androgenic properties were dose dependent for me, I was taking close to 10 grams a day (about 9 tablespoons split into 3). I noticed an increase and libido and overall just a sign of increased DHT and lower estrogen, which I thought was interesting."

Makes sense. I usually only do 3 tablespoons a day. i may feel a slight/mild/minimal increase in libido. If anything, these herbs on rotation and PPP just prevent me from going backwards. But i wouldnt do 9 tablespoons a day just now. Id rather save it for part of a PCT after i use the real androsterone.

[jacknap]

he said 10 grams. 10 grams isn't 9 tablespoons. 1 tablespoon = 14 grams. 10 tablespoons would be 140 grams no? lol

some sorta typo

[TubZy]

This is what it said-

"Before I even found out about the benefits of androsterone, a friend (CD} suggested taking some pine pollen for it’s androgenic effects, which he noticed as well. Pine pollen is loaded with a bunch of vitamins and minerals so I had no idea what some of the androgenic effects could be coming from. The androgenic properties were dose dependent for me, I was taking close to 10 grams a day (about 9 tablespoons split into 3). I noticed an increase and libido and overall just a sign of increased DHT and lower estrogen, which I thought was interesting."

Makes sense. I usually only do 3 tablespoons a day. i may feel a slight/mild/minimal increase in libido. If anything, these herbs on rotation and PPP just prevent me from going backwards. But i wouldnt do 9 tablespoons a day just now. Id rather save it for part of a PCT after i use the real androsterone.

You are correct it is 9 tablespoons. Yes, you burn through the bottle quick but it works very well in an androgenic sense

[Cdsnuts]

You are correct it is 9 tablespoons. Yes, you burn through the bottle quick but it works very well in an androgenic sense

Wouldn't you get more mileage out of the tincture seeing as its a concentrated form?

[TubZy]

Wouldn't you get more mileage out of the tincture seeing as its a concentrated form?

In theory, but I don't get the same effects and causes me allergic reactions as well. A few other people on here reported the same thing, but again the tincture isn't regulated with X amount of active hormones so we don't really know.

[Cdsnuts]

In theory, but I don't get the same effects and causes me allergic reactions as well. A few other people on here reported the same thing, but again the tincture isn't regulated with X amount of active hormones so we don't really know.

I always get better effects from the powder too. It seems that all of the actives are not extracted out when making the tincture.

[Snell1234]

I always get better effects from the powder too. It seems that all of the actives are not extracted out when making the tincture.

Cdnuts, prior to recovering, how did you go about using the tincture. Did you in fact use it? And if so, did you use a full bottle to completion and have a break? Or did you do 2 weeks on 2 weeks off? Or just once every 3 weeks as part of your herbal cycle? Curious to see how you went about it.

[Cdsnuts]

Cdnuts, prior to recovering, how did you go about using the tincture. Did you in fact use it? And if so, did you use a full bottle to completion and have a break? Or did you do 2 weeks on 2 weeks off? Or just once every 3 weeks as part of your herbal cycle? Curious to see how you went about it.?? You know I used it. I only recommend herbs that I have personal experience with.

I kept it in rotation with all of the rest of them. There may have been times when I used it for 2 or 3 days in a row but that was really about it

Why do you ask?

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[Snell1234]

?? You know I used it. I only recommend herbs that I have personal experience with.

I kept it in rotation with all of the rest of them. There may have been times when I used it for 2 or 3 days in a row but that was really about it

Why do you ask?

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I was just wondering if it could be used sort of like an r andro cycle.

Obviously it isn't anywhere near the strength of r andro, but I was thinking it could be a good way of working into an r andro cycle for those who aren't quite ready to go straight onto the r andro.

[Maxout777]

I was just wondering if it could be used sort of like an r andro cycle.

Obviously it isn't anywhere near the strength of r andro, but I was thinking it could be a good way of working into an r andro cycle for those who aren't quite ready to go straight onto the r andro.

You're not going to replicate a cycle of 400 mg a day of pharm grade Androsterone with pine pollen powder and pine pollen tincture. You would be better off with running low dose Androsterone from IdeaLabs (haidut on Ray Peat Forum) if you're hesitant to jump to the high dose R-Andro.

[Snell1234]

You're not going to replicate a cycle of 400 mg a day of pharm grade Androsterone with pine pollen powder and pine pollen tincture. You would be better off with running low dose Androsterone from IdeaLabs (haidut on Ray Peat Forum) if you're hesitant to jump to the high dose R-Andro.
And this is the same active ingredient in super r andro?

[Maxout777]

And this is the same active ingredient in super r andro?Yep, it's Androsterone (R-DHEA). At a much lower potential dosage.

[Snell1234]

Yep, it's Androsterone (R-DHEA). At a much lower potential dosage.

Okay thanks, I may give this a go then.

The super r andro was too much for me when I tried it. This may be a way to ease into it.

[Snell1234]

Yep, it's Androsterone (R-DHEA). At a much lower potential dosage.

What would be a good dose to start at?

[Maxout777]

What would be a good dose to start at?I'm not sure, I've never run anything lower than 400 mg a day. I'd check ray peat forum and see what folks are running over there. If I were doing it, I would start around 10mg.

[Snell1234]

I'm not sure, I've never run anything lower than 400 mg a day. I'd check ray peat forum and see what folks are running over there. If I were doing it, I would start around 10mg.
Thanks.

Cdnuts - you all good with this as part of the protocol?

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks.

Cdnuts - you all good with this as part of the protocol?yup

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[Durantia37]

Something to keep in mind Snell: my experience and the experience of a few others with DHEA compounds has been: extreme sensitivity to the first few doses, then a tapering off, then another bump at 3 weeks. So I wouldn't freak out after a couple doses thinking it's gonna be that way for four weeks. You really just need to get past the first week and then you'll be good to go.

Even if you just experiment with the idea labs stuff, don't assume how you feel after the first dose is going to last.

[jacknap]

?? You know I used it. I only recommend herbs that I have personal experience with.

I kept it in rotation with all of the rest of them. There may have been times when I used it for 2 or 3 days in a row but that was really about it

Why do you ask?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

woopsie I've been using the tincture almost daily for a month. LOL. I thought u can use it everyday like the powder too.

I guess i'll just add it to my super herb rotation...

[Durantia37]

woopsie I've been using the tincture almost daily for a month. LOL. I thought u can use it everyday like the powder too.

I guess i'll just add it to my super herb rotation...

Apart from cycles, I've been using the tincture daily for 7 months. Nothing but good things to say.

[jacknap]

Apart from cycles, I've been using the tincture daily for 7 months. Nothing but good things to say.

yeah haven't noticed anything bad either. I waited till it ran out before I got another and was fine the week or two without it.

but I'd rather not piss money down the drain if it's gunna lose effectiveness with daily use naw sayn lol.

but if it's gunna help doing it daily more than cycling it once a week then I'll do daily. whatever it takes.

[Durantia37]

yeah haven't noticed anything bad either. I waited till it ran out before I got another and was fine the week or two without it.

but I'd rather not piss money down the drain if it's gunna lose effectiveness with daily use naw sayn lol.

but if it's gunna help doing it daily more than cycling it once a week then I'll do daily. whatever it takes.

I've never tried rotating it, so if you try it let's me know how it goes.

[basementdweller]

You're not going to replicate a cycle of 400 mg a day of pharm grade Androsterone with pine pollen powder and pine pollen tincture. You would be better off with running low dose Androsterone from IdeaLabs (haidut on Ray Peat Forum) if you're hesitant to jump to the high dose R-Andro.


What about micro-dosing R-andro? Would that have the same effect as using androsterone from Idealabs?

[Cdsnuts]

What about micro-dosing R-andro? Would that have the same effect as using androsterone from Idealabs?

Just go for the andro....really.

Just start low if you're so worried about it, but really, there is nothing to be worried about. You can crack the capsules open if you really wanted to and just eye ball it to do a 50mg or 25mg dose. But again, I just think you're splitting hairs here.

Rotate herbs, then do a cycle. If you want to keep the cycle low, mg's wise, then you can, but I don't see the point. Do a 200mg cycle for a week or so and then adjust from there. You're making it more difficult then it has to be.

[The battler]

Just go for the andro....really.

Just start low if you're so worried about it, but really, there is nothing to be worried about. You can crack the capsules open if you really wanted to and just eye ball it to do a 50mg or 25mg dose. But again, I just think you're splitting hairs here.

Rotate herbs, then do a cycle. If you want to keep the cycle low, mg's wise, then you can, but I don't see the point. Do a 200mg cycle for a week or so and then adjust from there. You're making it more difficult then it has to be.

Hey Cd, i have been running the r andro at 400 mg, along with 4 andro at 200 for 2.5 weeks. So far, i have not seen any increase in libido or erection hardness, nor have I experienced great strength increases in the gym. My hair shedding is also not too elevated as many claim on cycle.

This is my first cycle and i have done a juice feast and cycled herbs for 2 months before starting it.
As far as the mental well being is concerned, sure I am doing well on that front.

Therefore, is it a case of me not responding to the drug as many others do?
I am concerned, because many of you here report great experiences with it.
Or should I just increase the dose and wait it out?

[Pageidol]

Ill just mention my brief experience with r-andro i dosed it at 400mg for a month after running test booster rotations for another month. I also didn’t receive libido or erection hardness, for me all that comes with the herbs but its what I believe the pro hormones do behind the scenes that is key...enzyme replenishment. Anyway my experiences were more strength really and a different mood. I dried out alot too on it, its anti-estrogenic. Came off after a month because I beginning to feel ‘wired’ all the time. Looking forward to cycling herbs now over the next 2-3 months. Didn’t experience any suppression though.

I get more from the herbs but with the pro-hormones I believe its what they do behind the scenes systematically thats key even if you dont see much in the way of symptoms improving whilst on it.

- - - Updated - - -

Alot of the guys see the benefits after the cycle plus anything that drives estrogen down will affect libido

[biatch]

Ill just mention my brief experience with r-andro i dosed it at 400mg for a month after running test booster rotations for another month. I also didn’t receive libido or erection hardness, for me all that comes with the herbs but its what I believe the pro hormones do behind the scenes that is key...enzyme replenishment. Anyway my experiences were more strength really and a different mood. I dried out alot too on it, its anti-estrogenic. Came off after a month because I beginning to feel ‘wired’ all the time. Looking forward to cycling herbs now over the next 2-3 months. Didn’t experience any suppression though.

I get more from the herbs but with the pro-hormones I believe its what they do behind the scenes systematically thats key even if you dont see much in the way of symptoms improving whilst on it.

- - - Updated - - -

Alot of the guys see the benefits after the cycle plus anything that drives estrogen down will affect libido

What are the improvements sticked from it?
The dried could be because of the estrogens reduction...did you check them by blood tests?..or have you recovered the dried out after quiting it?
Thanks

[Pageidol]

Yeah already not as dry, too early too say what post use improvement is, only been off 2 days, back on test boosters.

Cant be arsed with blood tests. Just going off the subtle improvements. Blood tests held my recovery back for a cpl of years. Constantly chasing numbers on a peice of paper got me nowhere!

[Cdsnuts]

Hey Cd, i have been running the r andro at 400 mg, along with 4 andro at 200 for 2.5 weeks. So far, i have not seen any increase in libido or erection hardness, nor have I experienced great strength increases in the gym. My hair shedding is also not too elevated as many claim on cycle.

This is my first cycle and i have done a juice feast and cycled herbs for 2 months before starting it.
As far as the mental well being is concerned, sure I am doing well on that front.

Therefore, is it a case of me not responding to the drug as many others do?
I am concerned, because many of you here report great experiences with it.
Or should I just increase the dose and wait it out?

When it comes to the first cycle or two, I never recommend stacking like you're doing. You want to save that for future cycles, as it's not necessary and is more of an "extra" then the DHT is.

I recommend dropping the 4 andro and running the rest of the cycle out with just the R andro so you can see what you're dealing with and how your body is responding, or not responding. As mentioned by Pageidol, even if you're not feeling the cycle, you're benefiting from what it's doing behind the scenes in your system. I know several guys that didn't' "feel" the cycle until their third or fourth one. You're just not one of the lucky ones that gets to feel the fun stuff out of the gate.

[K8668B]

Hey Cd, i have been running the r andro at 400 mg, along with 4 andro at 200 for 2.5 weeks. So far, i have not seen any increase in libido or erection hardness, nor have I experienced great strength increases in the gym. My hair shedding is also not too elevated as many claim on cycle.

This is my first cycle and i have done a juice feast and cycled herbs for 2 months before starting it.
As far as the mental well being is concerned, sure I am doing well on that front.

Therefore, is it a case of me not responding to the drug as many others do?
I am concerned, because many of you here report great experiences with it.
Or should I just increase the dose and wait it out?

Dont feel bad battler. I was one of those guys too. Just keep pushing. i still finished my 6 week cycle when i did it too.