Bizzbee's Trial with Androhard by MuscleGelz

[bizzbee]

I am going to chronicle my first trial with the DHT pro hormone Androhard by IML. I have used DHT pro hormones in the past but only for a few brief days before quitting. This time I hope to extend the trial for at least 4-5 weeks in order to fully reap the benefits and ultimately heal from lingering PFS.

Today: Felt kinda "alpha". Good energy. Lightheaded and dull headache. Muscles seemed dry and tight. 2 pumps every night is the regimen. (200mg per day). No workout.

[jacknap]

nice dude. keep us posted. how'ze your recovery going %ish wise? what helped you the most?

[bizzbee]

Recovery reached a point of around 70-80%. That figure is based on the following symptoms clearing up:
No more numbness or shrinkage of genitals
Oily skin returning
Sleep more restful (no more waking up in the middle of the night)
No bloat when following proper diet protocol
Libido coming back
Erections stronger
Muscle density and fullness somewhat better
Mental fog disappearing, clearer thinking
Energy levels improving
Semen approaching normal consistency and volume
Elevated mood
No more crashes

This was all done with very little help from herbs and pro hormones. Think cdnuts protocol with just diet, exercise, and sleep discipline. This was getting good results but did not push me into near recovery territory. Something was missing. Keeping the discipline after a few years without improvement was also wearing on me and so I sort of gave up after a while. I needed something to push me over the edge. I'm hoping these pro hormones will do the trick.

[K8668B]

Recovery reached a point of around 70-80%. That figure is based on the following symptoms clearing up:
No more numbness or shrinkage of genitals
Oily skin returning
Sleep more restful (no more waking up in the middle of the night)
No bloat when following proper diet protocol
Libido coming back
Erections stronger
Muscle density and fullness somewhat better
Mental fog disappearing, clearer thinking
Energy levels improving
Semen approaching normal consistency and volume
Elevated mood
No more crashes

This was all done with very little help from herbs and pro hormones. Think cdnuts protocol with just diet, exercise, and sleep discipline. This was getting good results but did not push me into near recovery territory. Something was missing. Keeping the discipline after a few years without improvement was also wearing on me and so I sort of gave up after a while. I needed something to push me over the edge. I'm hoping these pro hormones will do the trick.

I can relate to that. Ive gotten the most results thus far from simply paleo diet, avoiding gluten and certain other bad chemicals, carb backloading sleep, cold showers, SLEEP DISCIPLINE, cold showers, sun light exposure, breathwork, etc. (all the natural things.) Basically everything but the herbs and prohormones. but even though we all have PFS, i believe (obviously) that we all may have gotten hit slightly differently than each other. It all depends on our genetic make up. I think for me personally, i got hit the hardest in the adrenals. Who knows. I believe we all have that one "missing piece of the puzzle", that will set us in the right direction. I hope this androhard works for you! It could be the one, you never know!

[Durantia37]

Recovery reached a point of around 70-80%. That figure is based on the following symptoms clearing up:
No more numbness or shrinkage of genitals
Oily skin returning
Sleep more restful (no more waking up in the middle of the night)
No bloat when following proper diet protocol
Libido coming back
Erections stronger
Muscle density and fullness somewhat better
Mental fog disappearing, clearer thinking
Energy levels improving
Semen approaching normal consistency and volume
Elevated mood
No more crashes

This was all done with very little help from herbs and pro hormones. Think cdnuts protocol with just diet, exercise, and sleep discipline. This was getting good results but did not push me into near recovery territory. Something was missing. Keeping the discipline after a few years without improvement was also wearing on me and so I sort of gave up after a while. I needed something to push me over the edge. I'm hoping these pro hormones will do the trick.

Why didn't you take herbs? You'd probly be 100% by now if you had.

[bizzbee]

I did. But very brief or infrequent use. I've tried tribulus, tongkat ali, maca, and horny goat weed. The HGW really brought back the erections. The tribulus only worked for a few hours and then made me feel like garbage. The maca gave me back some libido and made me cum bigger loads. The tongkat ali gave me an energy and libido boost.


Why didn't you take herbs? You'd probly be 100% by now if you had.

[bizzbee]

I was also doing the cold showers, avoiding sugar, wheat, dairy, getting sunlight, and sleep. And it was good. But nothing really kickstarted things until after a brief several day pro hormone stint. That stuff really accelerated the recovery but it gave me headaches and lethargy. I think it was pure epiandrosterone from Fore Runner labs (alpha hard). I believe that you should get T-levels up into the 500s before attempting the pro hormones. When I first attempted them I was at around 350 and I started feeling the effects of suppression. Now I don't feel that and the headaches while still there are much attenuated, just sort of a dull, slight headache. But my energy right now is great. I used to be exhausted coming home at night from work just last week. That feeling of exhaustion evaporated. I feel pretty good energy wise. I also feel as if sore muscles and tendons are healing a bit faster as well. I'm still at 200mg. I may up the dosage in the near future. I hope to do at least 5 weeks of this. This androhard from Muscle Gelz seems to be effective so far. Let's see how things fare in the gym as far as strength and energy is concerned.

[Maxout777]

Good luck buddy, I'll be in on this one. Was a great product until I couldn't tolerate the Epi-Andro any longer.

[bizzbee]

Well it looks like it was enough for you to recover. Congrats by the way! Excellent work.


Good luck buddy, I'll be in on this one. Was a great product until I couldn't tolerate the Epi-Andro any longer.

[Cdsnuts]

Why didn't you take herbs? You'd probly be 100% by now if you had.

Same old story from the beginning of this....I'll never understand why.

Guys say the same thing. "I did the protocol....I got great results.....but it didn't take me all the way....etc...blah, blah, blah."

It is ALWAYS the case that they are NOT doing everything that they should be doing......ALWAYS.

It used to drive me nuts. Now I know they are just ripping themselves off.

I believe there are enough threads out there of me saying this same thing that the new guys will understand this.

[bizzbee]

With respect to sleep discipline and diet, yes I am guilty of not being as disciplined as I probably should be. Although I have followed it almost religiously for a period of about 3.5 years. However with regard to the herbs, some of these just weren't tolerated well. I would get headaches that made it almost unbearable. In fact, after some time even with long periods in between the rotation they would simply not be as effective, although initially they did provide a much needed boost. For example, I recently tried the HGW I mentioned that was a part of my earlier regimen and did in fact greatly improve the erectile dysfunction. However, the recent usage seemed to have very little effect. In fact, it felt counterproductive. Apparently for me, my body had relatively quickly become inured to these herbs even after months to years between usage, experimenting with fresh batches of course. Your template needs tinkering on an individual basis obviously in accordance with one's own physiology and genetics. But one thing that is for sure is that it works if followed religiously and more people need to be doing it.

I think in my case, I had been abusing anti-androgens for even longer than the 2.5 year period for which I used finasteride. So in essence, I had been wreaking havoc on my body for several years. I believe that is why herbs, exercise, diet, sleep, etc... is just not going to do the trick here. Quite frankly, even if it would I don't want to wait until I'm in my forties to have my life back. My hope is that this pro hormone regimen will accelerate recovery. This is DAY 3 (200mg per day applied at night). Headaches are actually subsiding. Energy is much better. I will report back in a week.


Same old story from the beginning of this....I'll never understand why.

Guys say the same thing. "I did the protocol....I got great results.....but it didn't take me all the way....etc...blah, blah, blah."

It is ALWAYS the case that they are NOT doing everything that they should be doing......ALWAYS.

It used to drive me nuts. Now I know they are just ripping themselves off.

I believe there are enough threads out there of me saying this same thing that the new guys will understand this.

[Cdsnuts]

With respect to sleep discipline and diet yes I am guilty of not being as disciplined as I probably should be. However, some of the herbs just weren't tolerated well. I would get headaches that made it almost unbearable. In fact, after some time even with long periods in between the rotation they would simply not be as effective. Your template is not a one size fits all program. There needs to be tweaking done on an individual level according to genetics and physiology.With regards to some of the herbs not being tolerated by some people the program is a one-size-fits-all template. That's why it works... That's the whole point.

So out of the 21 herbs that are recommended which ones gave you problems? Because I'm sure if we went into this we would find that there would still be a large number of them that you could keep on a rotation with great success

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[bizzbee]

I ordered some mucuna from lost empire. I think I'll order some more tongkat ali and cistanche as well. I'll use these as a PCT to the pro hormone cycle. Problem herbs were tribulus, rhodiola, ashwagandha, and now HGW. I tried to keep it simple so I could more easily attribute which herbs were actually effective in recovery.


With regards to some of the herbs not being tolerated by some people the program is a one-size-fits-all template. That's why it works... That's the whole point.

So out of the 21 herbs that are recommended which ones gave you problems? Because I'm sure if we went into this we would find that there would still be a large number of them that you could keep on a rotation with great success

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[Cdsnuts]

I ordered some mucuna from lost empire. I think I'll order some more tongkat ali and cistanche as well. I'll use these as a PCT to the pro hormone cycle. Problem herbs were tribulus, rhodiola, ashwagandha, and now HGW. I tried to keep it simple so I could more easily attribute which herbs were actually effective in recovery.

See....this is exactly what I'm talking about. You weren't following instructions. I'm pointing this out to prove a point, not be a dick.

So you should simply avoid the ones that gave you problems and rotate the other 17 or so herbs. It will make a massive difference in your situation.

Every time somebody thinks they're going to change something for this reason or that reason, it never works out in their favor, for obvious reasons.

Using only two herbs for PCT is going to run you into tolerance issues quickly. You're better off, as recommended, rotating as many as you can for PCT and onward.

[bizzbee]

17 herbs? That's a bit much. If I'm not mistaken you rotated or at least recommended initially a rotation of 7-10 herbs for those going through recovery. Perhaps your situation is different now. I'm going to try to keep it as simple as possible.

[Cdsnuts]

17 herbs? That's a bit much. If I'm not mistaken you rotated or at least recommended initially a rotation of 7-10 herbs for those going through recovery. Perhaps your situation is different now. I'm going to try to keep it as simple as possible.It's a 21-day cycle?

And it's not a bit much. Have you bothered to go on and read the website at all?

Listen... Do what you do and get what you get. That's all there is to it.

You're limiting yourself for absolutely no reason at all other than because you " want to keep it simple"

You guys are your own worst enemies.

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[bizzbee]

I was planning on a 5 week cycle for the pro hormone. Maybe longer now that those dang headaches are gone. I've gone on your website, of course. I see now what you mean about the 21 day herb cycle. My apologies. I'll think about it. It does seem like a somewhat expensive proposition.

[Pageidol]

Youll think about it?...expensive proposition...!?!?

This is your fucking manhood ffs and your life, quite frankly if i had to eat dog shit every day for a year i fucking would if it meant id recover. Cd is recovered and this is the protocol, its not rocket science, its clearly laid out, herb cycling...21days...21 of the listed herbs...on the WEBSITE! Have you read it???, why are you here if your doing it half assed???? Your 'recovery' will be half assed!

Im a long time lurker and finally began the protocol, and im seeing results. Should have started months ago but was in denial for a long time.

Cheers

[bizzbee]

You don't need to eat dog shit every day for a year and you don't need to cycle 21 fucking herbs. Ask cd if he did this during his recovery. He will most likely say no. Neither did English. Heck, chi didn't take ANY fucking t-boosting herbs. There was nothing half ass about my recovery efforts. It took a lot of dedication and sweat. Don't mistake me for some ninny over at PropeciaHelp.


Youll think about it?...expensive proposition...!?!?

This is your fucking manhood ffs and your life, quite frankly if i had to eat dog shit every day for a year i fucking would if it meant id recover. Cd is recovered and this is the protocol, its not rocket science, its clearly laid out, herb cycling...21days...21 of the listed herbs...on the WEBSITE! Have you read it???, why are you here if your doing it half assed???? Your 'recovery' will be half assed!

Im a long time lurker and finally began the protocol, and im seeing results. Should have started months ago but was in denial for a long time.

Cheers

[Hulk Smash]

Bizzbee,

I have to correct you on one thing.
Chi DID take at least one herb during his recovery; MACA. If he cycled on and off or took others is unknown.

Unfortunately Chi mentioned this in one forum only once that I remember.
And then left out mentioning MACA when posting in another forum.

I KNOW this because I WASTED TIME researching and further crashed because of all the
inconsistent info out there. I don't know if you must cycle a thousand herbs but I know many
took them to recover, and the herbs listed here are only beneficial to us.

I know you need herbs to COMPLETELY push the tied in the right direction.
If not then many would have never crashed.
I was going to the gym and pretty healthy overall....but I still crashed.

Please bizzbee go back and read all of Chi's posts he ever made.
I found it in that older forum which I won't name because most of it is a rabit hole of S *&! imo.
Hopefully his complete recovery log wasn't deleted, if it was then the herb info is lost.
That was about 30 pages of reading and only finding a few mentions of herbs he took if I'm correct.

Some good things in that forum but too much arguing/theories/methods and little recovery going on there.

I just had to jump in here and call this out because there are many men in the struggle right now
or who just crashed and this kind of post you just made doesn't help.
It's things like this that kept me in the dark longer than I should've been
and all the while I was crashing more each day.

To all the new guys looking for answers or still doubtful about herbs and if this is really the path to recovery,
go read my posts here in SS. I have a link there about the science behind herbs.
The herbs work together with the rest of the protocol to bring full recovery.

Bizzbee you're kind of standing in your own way imo. I hope you recover soon and stop posting dis-info here.

[bizzbee]

Ok, so he may have played around with MACA. But this was not a cyclic or regular type of usage, just some experimentation. And that may or may not have contributed to his recovery, perhaps it did. I can tell you that MACA was helpful for me in the early stages. However, if you read his posts carefully on propeciahelp you will see that he himself urges others to forgo things like herbs and hormones, to include even supplemental vitamins. I can pull that excerpt out and paste it right here so you can see with your own eyes. You have missed the point I was trying to make, entirely. I am not dismissing herbs as supplements for recovery. In fact, I have benefited from them quite a bit and will continue to use certain herbs that I feel are helpful. The point is that people have recovered using anywhere from just a one or two herbs to several, and I can even recall some that used none and just had time on their side. There is no magic number. It may be a case-by-case basis, it depends on the individual's severity. You have to experiment on yourself in order to determine which herbs or supplements are helpful and which are not and then use them accordingly (rotations, etc...) This is not disinformation, it's good advice. I will not be goaded into taking 21 herbs just because someone else thinks this is the only and proper way to recover. I will listen to my own body and make my own determinations. Thank you.

Update: Day 4 on Androhard (200-300mgs)
Very slight, dull headache. Feel less tired. Body looks more lean, less bloat. Some weight loss. Sleep more refreshing.



Bizzbee,

I have to correct you on one thing.
Chi DID take at least one herb during his recovery; MACA. If he cycled on and off or took others is unknown.

Unfortunately Chi mentioned this in one forum only once that I remember.
And then left out mentioning MACA when posting in another forum.

I KNOW this because I WASTED TIME researching and further crashed because of all the
inconsistent info out there. I don't know if you must cycle a thousand herbs but I know many
took them to recover, and the herbs listed here are only beneficial to us.

I know you need herbs to COMPLETELY push the tied in the right direction.
If not then many would have never crashed.
I was going to the gym and pretty healthy overall....but I still crashed.

Please bizzbee go back and read all of Chi's posts he ever made.
I found it in that older forum which I won't name because most of it is a rabit hole of S *&! imo.
Hopefully his complete recovery log wasn't deleted, if it was then the herb info is lost.
That was about 30 pages of reading and only finding a few mentions of herbs he took if I'm correct.

Some good things in that forum but too much arguing/theories/methods and little recovery going on there.

I just had to jump in here and call this out because there are many men in the struggle right now
or who just crashed and this kind of post you just made doesn't help.
It's things like this that kept me in the dark longer than I should've been
and all the while I was crashing more each day.

To all the new guys looking for answers or still doubtful about herbs and if this is really the path to recovery,
go read my posts here in SS. I have a link there about the science behind herbs.
The herbs work together with the rest of the protocol to bring full recovery.

Bizzbee you're kind of standing in your own way imo. I hope you recover soon and stop posting dis-info here.

[Cdsnuts]

Ok, so he may have played around with MACA. But this was not a cyclic or regular type of usage, just some experimentation. And that may or may not have contributed to his recovery, perhaps it did. I can tell you that MACA was helpful for me in the early stages. However, if you read his posts carefully on propeciahelp you will see that he himself urges others to forgo things like herbs and hormones, to include even supplemental vitamins. I can pull that excerpt out and paste it right here so you can see with your own eyes. You have missed the point I was trying to make, entirely. I am not dismissing herbs as supplements for recovery. In fact, I have benefited from them quite a bit and will continue to use certain herbs that I feel are helpful. The point is that people have recovered using anywhere from just a one or two herbs to several, and I can even recall some that used none and just had time on their side. There is no magic number. It may be a case-by-case basis, it depends on the individual's severity. You have to experiment on yourself in order to determine which herbs or supplements are helpful and which are not and then use them accordingly (rotations, etc...) This is not disinformation, it's good advice. I will not be goaded into taking 21 herbs just because someone else thinks this is the only and proper way to recover. I will listen to my own body and make my own determinations. Thank you.

Update: Day 4 on Androhard (200-300mgs)
Very slight, dull headache. Feel less tired. Body looks more lean, less bloat. Some weight loss. Sleep more refreshing.

Goaded? lol.

I don't think anyone is goading you into doing anything. Perhaps just trying to help you.

Sure, you don't have to take any herbs if you choose. Or do cold showers, or eat well, or.....anything. But all of these things will do nothing but aid in healing. The bottom line is this.....rotating all of those herbs will heal you faster then you would had you not taken anything.

Science, plain and simple.

[bizzbee]

We are in agreement here. We have been for a long time believe it or not. I'm perplexed a bit by the wrangling up to this point.

UPDATE: Feeling really good on this stuff. The improvement in mood is phenomenal.


Goaded? lol.

I don't think anyone is goading you into doing anything. Perhaps just trying to help you.

Sure, you don't have to take any herbs if you choose. Or do cold showers, or eat well, or.....anything. But all of these things will do nothing but aid in healing. The bottom line is this.....rotating all of those herbs will heal you faster then you would had you not taken anything.

Science, plain and simple.

[Durantia37]

Ok, so he may have played around with MACA. But this was not a cyclic or regular type of usage, just some experimentation. And that may or may not have contributed to his recovery, perhaps it did. I can tell you that MACA was helpful for me in the early stages. However, if you read his posts carefully on propeciahelp you will see that he himself urges others to forgo things like herbs and hormones, to include even supplemental vitamins. I can pull that excerpt out and paste it right here so you can see with your own eyes. You have missed the point I was trying to make, entirely. I am not dismissing herbs as supplements for recovery. In fact, I have benefited from them quite a bit and will continue to use certain herbs that I feel are helpful. The point is that people have recovered using anywhere from just a one or two herbs to several, and I can even recall some that used none and just had time on their side. There is no magic number. It may be a case-by-case basis, it depends on the individual's severity. You have to experiment on yourself in order to determine which herbs or supplements are helpful and which are not and then use them accordingly (rotations, etc...) This is not disinformation, it's good advice. I will not be goaded into taking 21 herbs just because someone else thinks this is the only and proper way to recover. I will listen to my own body and make my own determinations. Thank you.

Update: Day 4 on Androhard (200-300mgs)
Very slight, dull headache. Feel less tired. Body looks more lean, less bloat. Some weight loss. Sleep more refreshing.

I don't know you and won't ever meet you, so I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I think it is absolute retardation not to take herbs with PFS. They are game-changers.

The most intelligent decision would be to experiment with them all, and cycle the non-problem ones. But God knows "most intelligent" is rarely the course of action for PFSers.

[bizzbee]

I agree, I think they are crucial to bringing back sexual, mental, and physical functioning to some degree. I'm getting a bit tired of re-asserting my position here. I just don't believe you need 21 different herbs to accomplish this. If you don't agree that is fine too, I don't mind having disagreements as long as they are not punctuated with derogatory insinuations. I welcome criticism as long as it is well reasoned and would be happy to argue my case. But some members have found it fit to make brash and ill-conceived attacks on this thread simply because I don't agree fully with their 'anointed' one on how to approach this problem. I believe an individual should tailor his recovery plan given a basic template of essential do's and dont's. If you look at the sum total of recoveries you will find some common core of the aforementioned essentials but also some tailoring done here and there. If you really can't stomach my position on this and would rather launch peevish sounding attacks then you should just bug off.




I don't know you and won't ever meet you, so I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I think it is absolute retardation not to take herbs with PFS. They are game-changers.

The most intelligent decision would be to experiment with them all, and cycle the non-problem ones. But God knows "most intelligent" is rarely the course of action for PFSers.

[Durantia37]

I agree, I think they are crucial to bringing back sexual, mental, and physical functioning to some degree. I'm getting a bit tired of re-asserting my position here. I just don't believe you need 21 different herbs to accomplish this. If you don't agree that is fine too, I don't mind having disagreements as long as they are not punctuated with derogatory insinuations. I welcome criticism as long as it is well reasoned and would be happy to argue my case. But some members have found it fit to make brash and ill-conceived attacks on this thread simply because I don't agree fully with their 'anointed' one on how to approach this problem. I believe an individual should tailor his recovery plan given a basic template of essential do's and dont's. If you look at the sum total of recoveries you will find some common core of the aforementioned essentials but also some tailoring done here and there. If you really can't stomach my position on this and would rather launch peevish sounding attacks then you should just bug off.

Cool man, take your sweet time getting better, idgaf.

[bizzbee]

Godspeed on your much faster recovery as well, thank you for your wonderful input.


Cool man, take your sweet time getting better, idgaf.

[Cdsnuts]

Okay gents....

Anointed one here....

This thread has gone off the rails a bit, so why don't we dial it back some. Nothing productive is coming from this.

Everyone knows what the recommended protocol is along with the science and reason behind each piece. If they choose not to incorporate things that may speed up their recovery some, that's on them.

Everyone has to travel their own path with this. How ever long they take to get to the end is their decision.

Let's not bicker.

[bizzbee]

WEEK 1 Update:

Upped dosage to around 400-500 mgs per day. Strength and energy increased for workouts. Less bloat even after experimenting with foods not a part of paleo repertoire. Weight gain due to water retention and bloat virtually absent. Headaches much diminished, lightheadedness remains somewhat after application.
Some minor improvement in erection strength. Although libido is down some.
Current weight: 159.5 lbs

Will update again around half-way mark of cycle (i.e. 3 weeks).

[biatch]

WEEK 1 Update:

Upped dosage to around 400-500 mgs per day. Strength and energy increased for workouts. Less bloat even after experimenting with foods not a part of paleo repertoire. Weight gain due to water retention and bloat virtually absent. Headaches much diminished, lightheadedness remains somewhat after application.
Some minor improvement in erection strength.
Current weight: 159.5 lbs

Will update again around half-way mark of cycle (i.e. 3 weeks).
Great.
Hey Bizzbee, how long did you take to get you T grow up at a decend number and what did you use for that? I guess herbs are the best way.

[bizzbee]

I lasted tested for T levels in June and it was around 445. Just a week or two earlier it was 596. I used diet, exercise, and some T-boosting herbs to go from 350 to get to around 500.


Great.
Hey Bizzbee, how long did you take to get you T grow up at a decend number and what did you use for that? I guess herbs are the best way.

[Hulk Smash]

Bizzbee,

I was just trying to clarify that herbs were part of Chi and others regimen; either daily or minimal use.
Its more for those that are coming here for recovery and need a clear recovery path drawn out for them.
Its easy to get stuck going in circles and do nothing with inconsistent recovery info; especially with anxiety and mental issues.
(I went through it)

Congrats on your progress and recent improvements.
Looks like you'll be another recovery sooner than later!

[bizzbee]

The sweet spot for me may be around 300mg at this point in time. More than this seems to bring about lower libido, brain fog, sleepiness (even though there is more energy to do workouts, a seeming paradox)--symptoms consistent perhaps with excessive estrogen lowering.

[Cdsnuts]

I lasted tested for T levels in June and it was around 445. Just a week or two earlier it was 596. I used diet, exercise, and some T-boosting herbs to go from 350 to get to around 500.

Your T level probably would have been higher had you been hitting it from every possible angle with different herbs. I'm going to assume you know this though.

[Durantia37]

The sweet spot for me may be around 300mg at this point in time. More than this seems to bring about lower libido, brain fog, sleepiness (even though there is more energy to do workouts, a seeming paradox)--symptoms consistent perhaps with excessive estrogen lowering.

You might already know this, but extra carbs can be really helpful during a cycle. Some of these symptoms could be from glycogen depletion/low cortisol.

[bizzbee]

Ah..the ghost of Christmas past has reminded me once again of my bygone sins. I'll post a list here of the herbs I plan to take when this cycle is finished.

[Cdsnuts]

Ah..the ghost of Christmas past has reminded me once again of my bygone sins. I'll post a list here of the herbs I plan to take when this cycle is finished.

???

Not sure if you're being cheeky or not.

By all means, if you don't want the help, let me know. If I'm taking that the wrong way, also let me know. I don't see how the passive aggressiveness is necessary though?

Do you not see how the more herbs you rotate the better your chances are for raising your endogenous levels?

There is no contest for the person who recovered by using the least amount of herbs.

p.s. I saw the original post you edited....its a benefit of being a moderator

[bizzbee]

Forgive me, yes I was being a bit cheeky. I have no doubt you are genuinely trying to help. I see it in your posts on forums and in your efforts to disseminate useful information. But it may take a slightly different tact in order for others to be more receptive to your ideas and less unyielding when being admonished. You have made clear your reasoning for why it's important to cycle more rather than less of these herbs. This is not lost on me and I understand this and will no doubt have to make some earnest considerations when the time comes. I am not precluding the possibility of doing as you suggested, I'm merely deliberating carefully as to what the optimal approach is for my particular makeup and physiology. I
would hope at this point that this is not interpreted as a repudiation of your method or techniques. So if or possibly even when the time comes that I feel that my current method is not optimal or not working I will then begin to defer.


???

Not sure if you're being cheeky or not.

By all means, if you don't want the help, let me know. If I'm taking that the wrong way, also let me know. I don't see how the passive aggressiveness is necessary though?

Do you not see how the more herbs you rotate the better your chances are for raising your endogenous levels?

There is no contest for the person who recovered by using the least amount of herbs.

p.s. I saw the original post you edited....its a benefit of being a moderator

[Snell1234]

???

Not sure if you're being cheeky or not.

By all means, if you don't want the help, let me know. If I'm taking that the wrong way, also let me know. I don't see how the passive aggressiveness is necessary though?

Do you not see how the more herbs you rotate the better your chances are for raising your endogenous levels?

There is no contest for the person who recovered by using the least amount of herbs.

p.s. I saw the original post you edited....its a benefit of being a moderator

I would have liked to have read the original post now lol

[bizzbee]

I think the original smacked even more of cheekiness.


I would have liked to have read the original post now lol

[Cdsnuts]

Forgive me, yes I was being a bit cheeky. I have no doubt you are genuinely trying to help. I see it in your posts on forums and in your efforts to disseminate useful information. But it may take a slightly different tact in order for others to be more receptive to your ideas and less unyielding when being admonished. You have made clear your reasoning for why it's important to cycle more rather than less of these herbs. This is not lost on me and I understand this and will no doubt have to make some earnest considerations when the time comes. I am not precluding the possibility of doing as you suggested, I'm merely deliberating carefully as to what the optimal approach is for my particular makeup and physiology. I
would hope at this point that this is not interpreted as a repudiation of your method or techniques. So if or possibly even when the time comes that I feel that my current method is not optimal or not working I will then begin to defer.

If others choose not to be receptive to these ideas that are based in truth and science, that's on them.

It can never be said that I didn't try and show them the way.

[bizzbee]

PCT Herbs and Supps List:

Lost Empire Herbs -
1. Mucuna
2. Tongkat Ali
3. Cistanche
4. Black Maca (maybe)
5. Pine Pollen Tincture
6. Schisandra
7. Ant Extract
8. Cordyceps (maybe)
9. Butea Superba (maybe)

DAA and EndoAmp are also possibilities.

[Snell1234]

PCT Herbs and Supps List:

Lost Empire Herbs -
1. Mucuna
2. Tongkat Ali
3. Cistanche
4. Black Maca (maybe)
5. Pine Pollen Tincture
6. Schisandra
7. Ant Extract
8. Cordyceps (maybe)
9. Butea Superba (maybe)

DAA and EndoAmp are also possibilities.

What about taking the pine pollen powder every day?

[bizzbee]

Sounds like you had a good experience taking the pine pollen everyday? Care to share? How was it?


What about taking the pine pollen powder every day?

[Cdsnuts]

Sounds like you had a good experience taking the pine pollen everyday? Care to share? How was it?

That, among a few others, are one of the ones that are recommended to be taken daily.

[bizzbee]

2 Week Update:

Alpha feeling gone. Slight dull headache and lightheadedness remain although much less. High carb intake does not induce bloating and water retention. Muscles look denser and drier. Strength remains higher. Energy ok. 3 more weeks to go on this cycle. Average about 300mg per day. Seem to be tolerating it well. No adverse reactions.

[Maxout777]

2 Week Update:

Alpha feeling gone. Slight dull headache and lightheadedness remain although much less. High carb intake does not induce bloating and water retention. Muscles look denser and drier. Strength remains higher. Energy ok. 3 more weeks to go on this cycle. Average about 300mg per day.

Same happened to me about two weeks in. It got to the point where I felt run down, almost suppressed. Keep an eye out.....epi andro is a cruel beast to some.

[bizzbee]

You felt better after each cycle right? How many cycles did you do? 3 or 4? At what point do you reach in feeling before you decide that you have had enough cycles?


Same happened to me about two weeks in. It got to the point where I felt run down, almost suppressed. Keep an eye out.....epi andro is a cruel beast to some.

[bizzbee]

I think I'll be alright for another 3 weeks. The headaches and lightheadedness are a small nuisance. Energy is still ok.
Just wondering when this stuff will really kick in. Maybe have to wait until the 3rd cycle? I must say, I do like the body recomp that I'm witnessing within only two weeks, aside from the headaches. I had two sweet potatoes last night and very little bloat this morning. Two sweet potatoes would have caused a massive bloat and crash like symptoms.

[bizzbee]

I love pairing this with caffeine.

[Maxout777]

I did 4. And only ran the Andro Hard product for two weeks and that was after I considered myself initially recovered.

[bizzbee]

Ah ok, yes I remember your posts indicating the use of R-Andro from IML. Good choice. I hope this Andro Hard stuff is just as effective.


I did 4. And only ran the Andro Hard product for two weeks and that was after I considered myself initially recovered.

[biatch]

2 Week Update:

Alpha feeling gone. Slight dull headache and lightheadedness remain although much less. High carb intake does not induce bloating and water retention. Muscles look denser and drier. Strength remains higher. Energy ok. 3 more weeks to go on this cycle. Average about 300mg per day. Seem to be tolerating it well. No adverse reactions.

Any sexual improvements?

[bizzbee]

The improvements I've had sexually were made months ago and include thickening of semen, increase in semen volume, erection strength increase, sensitivity issues gone, testicular atrophy gone, size of phallus returns to normal, etc... Libido is actually a bit down while on this cycle. Also, in case I didn't mention it before. I don't have that morning exhaustion anymore when getting out of bed. I have a bit more spunk in my step in the mornings. When diet, exercise, and sleep are on point I started to see striations in the musculature that I haven't seen prior to taking this poisonous filth Propecia. I recommend a little caffeine with the cycle to drive up metabolism.


Any sexual improvements?

[biatch]

The improvements I've had sexually were made months ago and include thickening of semen, increase in semen volume, erection strength increase, sensitivity issues gone, testicular atrophy gone, size of phallus returns to normal, etc... Libido is actually a bit down while on this cycle. Also, in case I didn't mention it before. I don't have that morning exhaustion anymore when getting out of bed. I have a bit more spunk in my step in the mornings. When diet, exercise, and sleep are on point I started to see striations in the musculature that I haven't seen prior to taking this poisonous filth Propecia. I recommend a little caffeine with the cycle to drive up metabolism.

About the sexual improvements you are talking about, they all came from diet, herbs, sleep and excercise or there was a particular thing that helped the most in your case?

[bizzbee]

There is no one particular thing that helped the most. The recovery plan is like a machine and the elements of the plan (diet, herbs, sleep, and exercise) each perform a very vital part in the functioning of the machine. Without one particular part, the whole machine ceases to function.


About the sexual improvements you are talking about, they all came from diet, herbs, sleep and excercise or there was a particular thing that helped the most in your case?

[bizzbee]

Dull headaches are virtually gone. There appears to be an initial acclimation stage associated with this pro hormone usage as the body adjusts. Morning torpor virtually eliminated as well. May extend cycle to 6 weeks, assuming conditions continue to hold. Cognitive improvements also noted. Memory and cognition has certainly improved. My mind has been starved of essential neurochemicals for years it seems.

[Cdsnuts]

Dull headaches are virtually gone. There appears to be an initial acclimation stage associated with this pro hormone usage as the body adjusts. Morning torpor virtually eliminated as well. May extend cycle to 6 weeks, assuming conditions continue to hold. Cognitive improvements also noted. Memory and cognition has certainly improved. My mind has been starved of essential neurochemicals for years it seems.This always becomes evident once you do your first cycle in regards to the Mental effects. You start to realize just how dull your mind has become as you start to get your sharpness back.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Cdsnuts]

I'm glad it's starting to come together for you man. Just keep chipping away at it. It will all come together eventually, although never as fast as you want it to.

[jacknap]

been trying to use bathmate but super hard for me to get a boner without porn or a live woman. so holding up till now till I get some more sexual improvements

but using bathmate PLUS dht prohormones will probably dramatically speed up the size gains from bathmate. can't wait to give that a try.

[Cdsnuts]

been trying to use bathmate but super hard for me to get a boner without porn or a live woman. so holding up till now till I get some more sexual improvements

but using bathmate PLUS dht prohormones will probably dramatically speed up the size gains from bathmate. can't wait to give that a try.

Let's keep this thread OT Jacknap. We don't want to derail Bizbees thread.

[bizzbee]

3 WEEK UPDATE:

Got sick the last few days. Being sick was very rare while having PFS. A certain joie de vivre is becoming even more pronounced than it was before. Not only are the senses more acute but also more pleasurable. Mood is considerably enhanced. Libido is now stronger when diet is strict along with exercise. More frequent urinations. Will update again in a week.

[jacknap]

hey bro how u doing recovery wise these days? what remaining symptoms u got?

[biatch]

3 WEEK UPDATE:

Got sick the last few days. Being sick was very rare while having PFS. A certain joie de vivre is becoming even more pronounced than it was before. Not only are the senses more acute but also more pleasurable. Mood is considerably enhanced. Libido is now stronger when diet is strict along with exercise. More frequent urinations. Will update again in a week.

Hey boy, are you french?

[Cdsnuts]

Hey boy, are you french?

Boy?

I believe he's an Aussie. That is just a simple saying.

[jacknap]

Boy?

I believe he's an Aussie. That is just a simple saying.

lol it's a saying in 'italy/greece'. the equivalent to the north american 'bro'

[Maxout777]

Bizz is American, if I remember correctly.

[Cdsnuts]

lol it's a saying in 'italy/greece'. the equivalent to the north american 'bro'

Good to know.....lol.

[bizzbee]

Have been doing 400 mgs daily for several days. Feeling less than optimal, a bit of fatigue and joints feel a bit squeaky. Brain fog sort of coming back. Going to dial it down to 300mgs. Remaining symptoms are muscle-building ability, refractory period too long, and a few other things. No major crashes in a long time.

[bizzbee]

Your memory serves you well maxout.


Bizz is American, if I remember correctly.

[biatch]

Have been doing 400 mgs daily for several days. Feeling less than optimal, a bit of fatigue and joints feel a bit squeaky. Brain fog sort of coming back. Going to dial it down to 300mgs. Remaining symptoms are muscle-building ability, refractory period too long, and a few other things. No major crashes in a long time.
So, Boy...LOL
Are you having any improvements sexually?

[bizzbee]

This has been asked and answered.....Bitch.

Feeling slight pain or discomfort in testicular area recently.

[bizzbee]

WEEK 4 UPDATE:

Fatigue (epi andro a likely culprit) beginning to manifest.
Muscle hardening and cutting also beginning to manifest.

Debating whether to go the full 6 weeks or cut it short at 5 or switch to IML super r andro during cycle.
For those of you have done this before does it get better after the cycle is finished? I have read from several of your posts that this is the case.

[Durantia37]

WEEK 4 UPDATE:

Fatigue (epi andro a likely culprit) beginning to manifest.
Muscle hardening and cutting also beginning to manifest.

Debating whether to go the full 6 weeks or cut it short at 5 or switch to IML super r andro during cycle.
For those of you have done this before does it get better after the cycle is finished? I have read from several of your posts that this is the case.

For me, it definitely gets better after the cycle. Not the muscle tone and strength - that gets the highest on cycle - but all the other PFS symtpoms improve post-cycle.

[Maxout777]

WEEK 4 UPDATE:

Fatigue (epi andro a likely culprit) beginning to manifest.
Muscle hardening and cutting also beginning to manifest.

Debating whether to go the full 6 weeks or cut it short at 5 or switch to IML super r andro during cycle.
For those of you have done this before does it get better after the cycle is finished? I have read from several of your posts that this is the case.

Yeah, post cycle was where a lot of the symptoms got better. I was usually better sexually on cycle, but eventually it all leveled out. I think you can expect more libido on cycle, even if you're not dealing with PFS.

The fatigue is definitely epi-andro. It got to the point where I could barely get off the couch.

[Snell1234]

For me, it definitely gets better after the cycle. Not the muscle tone and strength - that gets the highest on cycle - but all the other PFS symtpoms improve post-cycle.

At what point after the cycle do you think? 3 week mark?

[bizzbee]

Perhaps I should just switch to the Super R andro then. You used the R-andro during your recovery right? Not the androhard?
If I continue with the androhard perhaps I should cut it short to a 5 week cycle.


Yeah, post cycle was where a lot of the symptoms got better. I was usually better sexually on cycle, but eventually it all leveled out. I think you can expect more libido on cycle, even if you're not dealing with PFS.

The fatigue is definitely epi-andro. It got to the point where I could barely get off the couch.

[Maxout777]

Perhaps I should just switch to the Super R andro then. You used the R-andro during your recovery right? Not the androhard?
If I continue with the androhard perhaps I should cut it short to a 5 week cycle.

Yeah, I used R-Andro. I ran the Andro Hard after I considered myself recovered, and I only did it for about two weeks before I binned it.

[K8668B]

Interesting. I agree you guys, durantia and max out. Im always talking about how I seem to not respond to anything. Well I would assume that after a successful, responsive prohormone cycle, then the herbs as PCT THEN would work, even more so! And then that right there is everything leveling out. I never know with my individual pfs situation . but I can see where one would make progress after cycle.

[bizzbee]

Alright, well for this cycle I'm going to ante up for another week and continue the androhard. The next cycle I think I will try straight up R-Andro. Should make for a good comparison. I can definitely do this for another week, not close to being bed-ridden yet. That will make it 5 weeks for my first cycle.


Yeah, I used R-Andro. I ran the Andro Hard after I considered myself recovered, and I only did it for about two weeks before I binned it.

[Durantia37]

At what point after the cycle do you think? 3 week mark?

Something like that. This has happened both times: immediately post-cycle = kind of a downer for a couple days, one week post-cycle = record high for specifically PFS healing, 2-3 weeks after cycle = even better record high, 4 weeks+ = tapering down to small but noticeable baseline increase.

Again, weirdly enough, even a one week cycle followed this same pattern. I'm doing a third cycle as we speak, I might make a thread here soon, don't wanna hijack Bizzbee's.

[bizzbee]

Anyone know the shelf life on the R-Andro from IML? On my bottle the label reads: 20216 MFG 4 16

Does this mean it was manufactured in April of 2016 and is good till June 2021? If anyone could tell me I would appreciate it. I'm thinking of switching to R-Andro for future cycles. This androhard stuff is starting to give me brain fog and fatigue 4 weeks in and thats only with no more than 3-4 pumps a day.

[jacknap]

I recall cd saying it's like a year or more.

[Durantia37]

Anyone know the shelf life on the R-Andro from IML? On my bottle the label reads: 20216 MFG 4 16

Does this mean it was manufactured in April of 2016 and is good till June 2021? If anyone could tell me I would appreciate it. I'm thinking of switching to R-Andro for future cycles. This androhard stuff is starting to give me brain fog and fatigue 4 weeks in and thats only with no more than 3-4 pumps a day.

Yeah, CD said it lasts for a couple years or so. I keep mine refrigerated.

[jacknap]

Yeah, CD said it lasts for a couple years or so. I keep mine refrigerated.

interesting. where did u get the fridge thing? and is there consensus on the prohormone to use now that socal isn't offering it for a while?

[bizzbee]

Thanks for the input fellas. I'm not sure I can really continue like this although I said I would try to tough it out, I've decided to cut this cycle a little short. This has gone beyond the point of diminishing returns and feels now to be somewhat counterproductive. The lethargy was especially pronounced on Saturday while trying to do some uphill sprints. Could barely muster up enough energy to complete just one sprint. Cardiovascular endurance has degraded over the last few weeks. Headaches returned yesterday and thermogenic effects not detectable anymore. This is most likely the epiandro. 4 weeks should be sufficient to be regarded as a "cycle". Anywhere from 4-8 weeks is. It's time to implement PCT and wait a few weeks to see the real improvements.

[The battler]

Thanks for the input fellas. I'm not sure I can really continue like this although I said I would try to tough it out, I've decided to cut this cycle a little short. This has gone beyond the point of diminishing returns and feels now to be somewhat counterproductive. The lethargy was especially pronounced on Saturday while trying to do some uphill sprints. Could barely muster up enough energy to complete just one sprint. Cardiovascular endurance has degraded over the last few weeks. Headaches returned yesterday and thermogenic effects not detectable anymore. This is most likely the epiandro. 4 weeks should be sufficient to be regarded as a "cycle". Anywhere from 4-8 weeks is. It's time to implement PCT and wait a few weeks to see the real improvements.

What have ypu planmed for the PCT? Pine pollen and the rest of the herbs are what CD reccomends. Are you doing something different?

[The battler]

Whatup max bro, what I really dont get is if most of you guys dont find any epi-Andro product suitable for your system, then how come the much vaunted AndroHard by pp gets such high ratings. Even that had epi-Andro, disnt it?

[bizzbee]

Some don't tolerate the epiandro as well as others.


Whatup max bro, what I really dont get is if most of you guys dont find any epi-Andro product suitable for your system, then how come the much vaunted AndroHard by pp gets such high ratings. Even that had epi-Andro, disnt it?

[bizzbee]

Ok. The bottle of leftover R-andro is probably too old. Chucked it. Next cycle I will just order a fresh batch. Ordered some extra herbs. Felt little to no suppression during 4-week cycle with Androhard by Muscle Gelz. Just a slight drop in libido. Would have continued but headaches returned and lethargy became intolerable. Anyone care to share what their favorite herbs are? This is what my herb lineup will look like :

1. Ant Extract
2. Black maca
3. Pine pollen powder and tincture
5. Cistanche
6. Lion's Mane
7. Mucuna
8. Tongkat Ali

If you'd like to make suggestions on some other herbs I'd be happy to consider. Also, if you consider the Toco caps to be a worthy addition to the PCT let me know. I will probably be looking at Toco from wicked supplements.

[jacknap]

tribulus, ashwa, rhodiola, butea are top 7 for me. along with the one's u cited pine pollen, tongkat, mucana.

where you gunna get your prohormone from? it's down the line for me but I want to prepare cause I'm not sure it's gunna be easy to find a good source for Canada that's cdnuts approved...

[bizzbee]

Thanks for your suggestions. What brand of Butea Superba do you use? I am planning to go with IML's Super R Andro. It's the next best thing I suppose to the original Androhard from Primordial Performance.


tribulus, ashwa, rhodiola, butea are top 7 for me. along with the one's u cited pine pollen, tongkat, mucana.

where you gunna get your prohormone from? it's down the line for me but I want to prepare cause I'm not sure it's gunna be easy to find a good source for Canada that's cdnuts approved...

[Cdsnuts]

Ok. The bottle of leftover R-andro is probably too old. Chucked it. Next cycle I will just order a fresh batch. Ordered some extra herbs. Felt little to no suppression during 4-week cycle with Androhard by Muscle Gelz. Just a slight drop in libido. Would have continued but headaches returned and lethargy became intolerable. Anyone care to share what their favorite herbs are? This is what my herb lineup will look like :

1. Ant Extract
2. Black maca
3. Pine pollen powder and tincture
5. Cistanche
6. Lion's Mane
7. Mucuna
8. Tongkat Ali

If you'd like to make suggestions on some other herbs I'd be happy to consider. Also, if you consider the Toco caps to be a worthy addition to the PCT let me know. I will probably be looking at Toco from wicked supplements.

I would add in some adaptogens as well, such as Rhodiola, Eluthero and shilijat. He shou wu is another excellent herb I think you should add.

[jacknap]

there's a herb store in my city that has it, so it's not a brand. I would just go with what cdnuts says his recommendations are top notch. Gunna try that next.

I do respond to the herb stores butea like crazy. There was a thai guy who used it and boosted his DHT by 300%. It kinda feels similar to yohimbine to me...

Super R-Andro Rx IronMag Labs (https://www.ironmaglabs.com/product/super-r-andro-rx/)

Is this the one you're talking about?

[bizzbee]

Yes that's the one.


there's a herb store in my city that has it, so it's not a brand. I would just go with what cdnuts says his recommendations are top notch. Gunna try that next.

I do respond to the herb stores butea like crazy. There was a thai guy who used it and boosted his DHT by 300%. It kinda feels similar to yohimbine to me...

Super R-Andro Rx IronMag Labs (https://www.ironmaglabs.com/product/super-r-andro-rx/)

Is this the one you're talking about?

[bizzbee]

Thanks CD. I just want to be done with this. 14 years is enough. I'll take whatever. F*&$ it.

All the herbs listed above will be coming from Lost Empire.


I would add in some adaptogens as well, such as Rhodiola, Eluthero and shilijat. He shou wu is another excellent herb I think you should add.

[bizzbee]

My first cycle of DHT a few years back (ca. 2012-2013) caused suppression symptoms soon after taking my first few capsules. The fact that I have felt little to no suppression this time around is very encouraging. Wish I could have taken it for another 2 weeks, oh well maybe the next cycle will be different.

[Durantia37]

Thanks CD. I just want to be done with this. 14 years is enough. I'll take whatever. F*&$ it.

All the herbs listed above will be coming from Lost Empire.

Fourteen years? Christ, man.

My top five herbs (apart from pp powder and tincture):
-Suma
-Tribulus
-Tongkat
-Cistanche
-He Shou Wu

[bizzbee]

Well more like 10 years with PFS. Right now i have a mild form of PFS. Things started to really improve in 2013-2014 with just diet, exercise, and some herbs, a "lite" version of cdnuts' protocol. It was effective to some degree, but like the man said, you need to go all or none to truly recover. Thanks for the suggestions. I just ordered the Eleuthero and the Schisandra. No more f*$&ing around.


Fourteen years? Christ, man.

My top five herbs (apart from pp powder and tincture):
-Suma
-Tribulus
-Tongkat
-Cistanche
-He Shou Wu

[jacknap]

Well more like 10 years with PFS. Right now i have a mild form of PFS. Things started to really improve in 2013-2014 with just diet, exercise, and some herbs, a "lite" version of cdnuts' protocol. It was effective to some degree, but like the man said, you need to go all or none to truly recover. Thanks for the suggestions. I just ordered the Eleuthero and the Schisandra. No more f*$&ing around.

lol diet and exercise? wtf were u doing before you started doing that? lol

[bizzbee]

It appears as though you may be laughing because you think I'm a fool for not doing this sooner. But I wonder how you would have gotten along in 2003 when these sorts of forums filled with anecdotes, advice, tips, and encouragement regarding PFS either did not exist or were very hard to find. At least I suffered in silence all these years without whining and whimpering like a weakling. If you like to laugh at the shortcomings and misfortunes of others I know a great forum for that: Propeciahelp. You can join the likes of PVDL and others in ridiculing and jeering at those who are also "late-comers" to the onerous task of trying to recover.

I'm going to keep a special eye out for you. I'd like to see how quickly you are able to beat this thing. Let's see you earn those bragging rights of yours for getting an early start in the game shall we?



lol diet and exercise? wtf were u doing before you started doing that? lol

[Fausto Soares]

I just ordered some days ago a great list of herbs and not herbs (ant powder) of Lost empire and other manufacturers, the most are lost of empires, check, i have 22:

-tongkat
-tribullus
-horny goat weed
-Ant Extract
-butea superba
-pine pollen
-maca
-Shilijat
-Cistanche
-Cordyceps
-Hi shou wu
-safed musli
-mucuna dopa
-maral
-catuaba
-muira puama
-Royal Jelly
-guduchi
-suma
-eleuthero
-Rhodiola
-ashwagandha

I live at Brazil, i will begin my 42 days R andro cycle at first! Have been 8 years suffering from PFS like symptoms (i got it after use of Nandrolone), i think the problem seems like PFS because nandrolone has to do with 5AR and the symtoms are like PFS.

[jacknap]

It appears as though you may be laughing because you think I'm a fool for not doing this sooner. But I wonder how you would have gotten along in 2003 when these sorts of forums filled with anecdotes, advice, tips, and encouragement regarding PFS either did not exist or were very hard to find. At least I suffered in silence all these years without whining and whimpering like a weakling. If you like to laugh at the shortcomings and misfortunes of others I know a great forum for that: Propeciahelp. You can join the likes of PVDL and others in ridiculing and jeering at those who are also "late-comers" to the onerous task of trying to recover.

I'm going to keep a special eye out for you. I'd like to see how quickly you are able to beat this thing. Let's see you earn those bragging rights of yours for getting an early start in the game shall we?

bro. I hope we both recover as fast as possible. Sorry that I came across as an asshole to you. I wouldn't wish pfs on my worst enemy man. I'm sorry if I came across as an asshole.

In reality I was just curious of what you were doing prior to getting your diet and exercise right. I wasn't actually laughing, I used 'lol' a lot as a bad habit.

I'm sorry I was being insensitive as you've suffered a long time and I will help you as much as I can on our journys. I hope you accept my apology.

Truly was curious about what you were doing, because after I crashed I made gym and diet a priority as that's the one thing I knew you can't go wrong with.

Also to be honest I'm not actually super confident in my recovery. I used a different drug, and I had convulsions so I might have like a stroke or something. I'm just putting one foot in front of the other the best I can. This isn't a competition. This a brotherhood.

[Fausto Soares]

It appears as though you may be laughing because you think I'm a fool for not doing this sooner. But I wonder how you would have gotten along in 2003 when these sorts of forums filled with anecdotes, advice, tips, and encouragement regarding PFS either did not exist or were very hard to find. At least I suffered in silence all these years without whining and whimpering like a weakling. If you like to laugh at the shortcomings and misfortunes of others I know a great forum for that: Propeciahelp. You can join the likes of PVDL and others in ridiculing and jeering at those who are also "late-comers" to the onerous task of trying to recover.

I'm going to keep a special eye out for you. I'd like to see how quickly you are able to beat this thing. Let's see you earn those bragging rights of yours for getting an early start in the game shall we?

Ho man, dont worry, i think he wouldnt want to make you angry.

- - - Updated - - -

[bizzbee]

I have a bottle of Pine Pollen Tincture that's probably no more than 2 years old. I've read that these alcohol based tinctures are stable for many years. Think it would still be good to use?

[bizzbee]

Hey CD, what herbs do you recommend during PCT? Will any do or are there a few that are particularly suited to the task of recovering after a cycle?

[Cdsnuts]

Hey CD, what herbs do you recommend during PCT? Will any do or are there a few that are particularly suited to the task of recovering after a cycle?

I used to recommend a particular PCT, but after running the herbs for so long and experimenting, I've found that to be redundant and a waste of money as the herb rotating protocol IS a pct that you can run indefinitely. Plus it cuts out the cost and hassle of having to run a dedicated PCT. It's just not necessary while running all of the different herbs.

Not to mention the prohormones we're dealing with are barely suppressive as it is.

[Cdsnuts]

I have a bottle of Pine Pollen Tincture that's probably no more than 2 years old. I've read that these alcohol based tinctures are stable for many years. Think it would still be good to use?

It can't hurt to run it. You should be able to feel whether it is working or not.

[bizzbee]

Thanks CD. I am going to start with the mucuna tonight before bed as I heard that's a good time to take it. Also, I just tried the pine pollen tincture, not really feeling much. It is rather old. I've got some pine pollen powder on the way. Will order a fresh batch of the tincture in due time. Let's see how it goes!

[jacknap]

Thanks CD. I am going to start with the mucuna tonight before bed as I heard that's a good time to take it. Also, I just tried the pine pollen tincture, not really feeling much. It is rather old. I've got some pine pollen powder on the way. Will order a fresh batch of the tincture in due time. Let's see how it goes!

mucana is specifically good for increasing vivid dreams + lowering prolactin = less refractory period. I used 25 grams pre-crash a few years ago and got lucid dreams.

also raises dopamine.

I was working with a naturopath before and she said that tincture can last a lifetime... but I still think it's best to do fresh but can't hurt!

[bizzbee]

Had some vivid dreams as well overnight. Woke up with some heaviness and some brain fog, then around late in the morning became remarkably lucid.

[The battler]

I used to recommend a particular PCT, but after running the herbs for so long and experimenting, I've found that to be redundant and a waste of money as the herb rotating protocol IS a pct that you can run indefinitely. Plus it cuts out the cost and hassle of having to run a dedicated PCT. It's just not necessary while running all of the different herbs.

Not to mention the prohormones we're dealing with are barely suppressive as it is.

Hello CD, in my case I am looking forward to stacking the R-Andro with 4 Andro, which is thought to be slightly estrogenic. I know the R andro would take care of the estrogen spike, but because I'd be stacking both at once(200 mg each per day), should I plan for a separate pct?
Also, as far as the herbs PCT is concerned, is pine pollen powder the main herb I should base my recovery on?

[Cdsnuts]

Hello CD, in my case I am looking forward to stacking the R-Andro with 4 Andro, which is thought to be slightly estrogenic. I know the R andro would take care of the estrogen spike, but because I'd be stacking both at once(200 mg each per day), should I plan for a separate pct?
Also, as far as the herbs PCT is concerned, is pine pollen powder the main herb I should base my recovery on?

???

Battler...some forum etiquette.

This is Bizbees thread and any discussion here should be geared towards that topic.

It's rude to jump in on someone elses thread to try and "catch me" and start asking questions that are completely off topic to the thread you're in.

If you have specific questions, which you obviously do, your best bet is to start a thread of your own. Someone will probably have an answer for you before I even see it. That being said, I check ALL threads at least twice a week, so it will be seen eventually.

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[The battler]

???

Battler...some forum etiquette.

This is Bizbees thread and any discussion here should be geared towards that topic.

It's rude to jump in on someone elses thread to try and "catch me" and start asking questions that are completely off topic to the thread you're in.

If you have specific questions, which you obviously do, your best bet is to start a thread of your own. Someone will probably have an answer for you before I even see it. That being said, I check ALL threads at least twice a week, so it will be seen eventually.

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I only asked since there was already an ongoing discussion on pct for the R Andro. And since the thread already is a log for prohormone use, I thought it wouldn't be irrelevant if I put one of my own questions there. Anyway, I apologize for any inconvenience caused.

[bizzbee]

Considering adding Bacopa to herbal regimen. Looks beneficial for those afflicted by PFS-induced neurosteroid imbalances. Please share any experiences ...

First night using Mucuna... morning after more alert, less foggy, clearer thinking, more focused. Second night using Mucuna... same result this morning. Only use 1/4 tsp each dose. Regular dose is about 1/2 tsp. Time to switch to another herb. Waiting on herbs to arrive. This thread will conclude once "PCT" period has ended.

[bizzbee]

Just ordered some Lion's Mane today. Bacopa is sold out, damn it. Still feel pretty good today as I did yesterday. These herbs really do work.

[Cdsnuts]

Just ordered some Lion's Mane today. Bacopa is sold out, damn it. Still feel pretty good today as I did yesterday. These herbs really do work.Lol

You think I was just making s*** up?

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[Meegs]

Hey Bizzbee- yeah I have been taking Lions Mane and Bacopa for awhile now pretty much on a daily basis and from my experience seems to have a positive effect on the mind. Specifically for me seems to make me more clear headed and less fog.

On the bacopa- I have learned to order in bulk, because this herb is often out of stock at LEH for some reason. Guess it must be popular. I always put my name on their email list to let me know when it is back in stock.

Take care brother.

[bizzbee]

It took a little more nudging in my case as I tend to proceed very cautiously, but clearly I've underestimated the power of these herbs.


Lol

You think I was just making s*** up?

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[bizzbee]

Some lethargy induced by the epiandro remains. May need to wait a couple of weeks in order to get over this.

[Cdsnuts]

It took a little more nudging in my case as I tend to proceed very cautiously, but clearly I've underestimated the power of these herbs.

I know it sounds cliche' or corny, but they really are life changing. I stand behind those words with all of my being. The chemical compounds produced by the natural world are nothing short of amazing.

Bacopa and Gotu Kola along with lions mane synergise AMAZING when followed up with some caffeine. Either a cup of coffee or a nice strong cup of tea really bring them home. GREAT way to start the day.

[bizzbee]

Got stool and urine test results back. Looks like I have H. Pylori, Candida, and a parasite. Also, some normal flora seem a little out of balance. Going to see doctor soon. I should probably get this gut business in order before continuing with herbs and such.

[Cdsnuts]

Got stool and urine test results back. Looks like I have H. Pylori, Candida, and a parasite. Also, some normal flora seem a little out of balance. Going to see doctor soon. I should probably get this gut business in order before continuing with herbs and such.

No need. The herbs are only going to help, not hinder. If anything they are building up your constitution to better withstand anything negative you have going on. I wouldn't stop them.

[bizzbee]

They have arrived. Not sure which one to start with. I think maybe Lion's Mane. That should bring the total to 10 herbs.


No need. The herbs are only going to help, not hinder. If anything they are building up your constitution to better withstand anything negative you have going on. I wouldn't stop them.

[Cdsnuts]

They have arrived. Not sure which one to start with. I think maybe Lion's Mane. That should bring the total to 10 herbs.You get the best results with lion's mane when you put it in hot water and make a tea out of it of sorts. Personally I put it into boiling hot water and then steep a tea bag in it

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[bizzbee]

Took Lion's Mane last night. This morning feel like I was hit over the head with a bat. More heavy headedness and fogginess. I don't know if it is related to Lion's Mane at this point. Strange.

[Cdsnuts]

Took Lion's Mane last night. This morning feel like I was hit over the head with a bat. More heavy headedness and fogginess. I don't know if it is related to Lion's Mane at this point. Strange.Try it in the morning in hot water

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[bizzbee]

Just took one teaspoon (3 grams ??) of Pine Pollen powder (a.k.a the master herb) tonight. Let's see the magic go to work. Pine pollen powder should be good for PCT right? Or should it wait until after?1537

[Cdsnuts]

Just took one teaspoon (3 grams ??) of Pine Pollen powder (a.k.a the master herb) tonight. Let's see the magic go to work.Just go for it and take one heaping tablespoon

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[bizzbee]

Really? 1 tablespoon? I'm not a big guy but if I feel no worse in an hour I will take another teaspoon.


Just go for it and take one heaping tablespoon

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[Durantia37]

Just took one teaspoon (3 grams ??) of Pine Pollen powder (a.k.a the master herb) tonight. Let's see the magic go to work. Pine pollen powder should be good for PCT right? Or should it wait until after?1537

Everyone on this board does the exact same thing for PCT as they do for the normal protocol. You don't have to hold off on anything or change anything. I personally make sure I have a pp tincture for PCT, but that's just personal preference.

Like CD said, no reason to be shy, unless you're worried about money. I think most of us do like 3 tablespoons per day.

[Cdsnuts]

Really? 1 tablespoon? I'm not a big guy but if I feel no worse in an hour I will take another teaspoon.If anything you'll just feel better bro

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[bizzbee]

Just gave the pine pollen another dollop. Tomorrow morning I think I'll try either mucuna or black ant.

[Cdsnuts]

Just gave the pine pollen another dollop. Tomorrow morning I think I'll try either mucuna or black ant.Black ant really packs an energetic punch and is usually best pre-workout... FYI

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[bizzbee]

Ok. What is a good morning herb?


Black ant really packs an energetic punch and is usually best pre-workout... FYI

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[Cdsnuts]

Ok. What is a good morning herb?You're going to have to feel them all out to see how they react with your Constitution. Most of them are great in the morning which is when you should take your first dose regardless. I was just letting you know that the ant packs a bit more of a punch than the others

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[bizzbee]

2 teaspoons of pine pollen did not seem to do much. Libido actually felt lower afterwards. I was expecting a libido boost and nocturnal erections. Didn't sense suppressive like effects. Woke up looking and feeling tight (also took Mucuna last night as well 1/4 teaspoon). Not going to cross it off yet. Next time will take a massive dose to see what this stuff can really do. Today is tongkat ali day. PCT not finished. Still need to recover libido and erection frequency after prohormone cycle.

[Cdsnuts]

2 teaspoons of pine pollen did not seem to do much. Libido actually felt lower afterwards. I was expecting a libido boost and nocturnal erections. Didn't sense suppressive like effects. Woke up looking and feeling tight (also took Mucuna last night as well 1/4 teaspoon). Not going to cross it off yet. Next time will take a massive dose to see what this stuff can really do. Today is tongkat ali day. PCT not finished. Still need to recover libido and erection frequency after prohormone cycle.

LEH actually has a "morning wood guarantee" that if you take three TABLESPOONS before bed, you will wake up with a raging hard on the next day. Try it.

[bizzbee]

Done! Doing the 3 tbsp experiment tonight.


LEH actually has a "morning wood guarantee" that if you take three TABLESPOONS before bed, you will wake up with a raging hard on the next day. Try it.

[Cdsnuts]

Done! Doing the 3 tbsp experiment tonight.

They used to have this write up on the pine pollen page. Not sure if it's there anymore as I haven't been to the site in quite awhile. I ordered my PP by the kilo, outside the website channels.

[bizzbee]

I didn't see that guarantee posted on their page. Another reported symptom of the last night's pine pollen and mucuna intake is drier skin. Skin usually is somewhat oily. I wish I had the response some of you others have had with this stuff. I will wait until things normalize a bit and then try the 3 tablespoon experiment on a later night. I will just stick to the ones I know work for now for the PCT. I need to regain ground that was lost.

[Cdsnuts]

You don't really think that one dose of pine pollen dried out your skin do you?

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[jacknap]

They used to have this write up on the pine pollen page. Not sure if it's there anymore as I haven't been to the site in quite awhile. I ordered my PP by the kilo, outside the website channels.

mind hooking up that source cd lol. I love this stuff and would love to take it the rest of my life. even after I recover. I personally love being a sex crazed maniac lol.

[bizzbee]

I'm not sure. I'm just reporting any symptoms post intake. Nothing has changed in regimen besides the intake.

[jacknap]

theoretically could be possible cause it does lower estrogen correct? I recall english saying he had skin issues when he lowered his e to much with arimedex... obviously more potent than a herb I'd imagine though

[bizzbee]

Could very well be the case. I am waiting for my tincture to come in. Let's see what sort of symptoms arise from that.


theoretically could be possible cause it does lower estrogen correct? I recall english saying he had skin issues when he lowered his e to much with arimedex... obviously more potent than a herb I'd imagine though

[Cdsnuts]

Could very well be the case. I am waiting for my tincture to come in. Let's see what sort of symptoms arise from that.Are you looking for symptoms?

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[bizzbee]

Of course I look for symptoms when I put something foreign into the body. Wouldn't you?



Are you looking for symptoms?

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[Cdsnuts]

Of course I look for symptoms when I put something foreign into the body. Wouldn't you?I look for benefits

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[Durantia37]

I didn't see that guarantee posted on their page. Another reported symptom of the last night's pine pollen and mucuna intake is drier skin. Skin usually is somewhat oily. I wish I had the response some of you others have had with this stuff. I will wait until things normalize a bit and then try the 3 tablespoon experiment on a later night. I will just stick to the ones I know work for now for the PCT. I need to regain ground that was lost.

I highly doubt one dose of pine pollen at two teaspoons would cause your skin to dry out within like 10 hours. Seems like a coincidence/over-analysis.

[Durantia37]

I mean, even back in the very early days of PFS when I was still drinking, it would be like five days before I noticed the negative effects. I'm always skeptical when someone claims to have a negative hormonal response within 24 hrs. I just don't think it works that way.

[Cdsnuts]

I mean, even back in the very early days of PFS when I was still drinking, it would be like five days before I noticed the negative effects. I'm always skeptical when someone claims to have a negative hormonal response within 24 hrs. I just don't think it works that way.You certainly can have a negative hormonal response within 24 hours of taking a substance and sometimes even sooner depending on what was ingested. I just don't think two teaspoons of pine pollen would manifest anything that quickly. If we were talking about a designer steroid, Maybe

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[jacknap]

I mean, even back in the very early days of PFS when I was still drinking, it would be like five days before I noticed the negative effects. I'm always skeptical when someone claims to have a negative hormonal response within 24 hrs. I just don't think it works that way.

I crashed from using an anti-androgen topically JUST ONCE. So I try not to totally be dismissive of people cause of this lol.

[bizzbee]

Are you kidding? I have hormonal responses that arrive within hours of taking herbal t-boosters.

[bizzbee]

Took some tongkat ali today from Lost empire herbs. This stuff seems mellower than the LJ100 sold by source naturals. Used two scoops from the small scooper they provide which should amount to about 100mg. One thing that seems to have gained some permanent ground is the muscle hardness and density. Don't look as atrophied or flabby as before. Tomorrow will be cistanche day. Hopefully recover libido and erection strength soon.

[bizzbee]

Lost Empire PinePollen Tincture just arrived today. Took about 60 droplets before a workout. Workout was good. Strength and energy good. No longer feel the exhaustion after just 20 minutes. Went for a whole hour or more with little exhaustion. Looks like a new baseline really is here to stay. Also, feeling that tightness and lactic acid burn that was felt pre PFS. These look like good signs! Had vegetable pancakes (just a few eggs and veggies) and a sweet potato after the work out.

[jacknap]

Took some tongkat ali today from Lost empire herbs. This stuff seems mellower than the LJ100 sold by source naturals. Used two scoops from the small scooper they provide which should amount to about 100mg. One thing that seems to have gained some permanent ground is the muscle hardness and density. Don't look as atrophied or flabby as before. Tomorrow will be cistanche day. Hopefully recover libido and erection strength soon.


nice biz! yours came with a scooper or is that extra? I didn't get one which is kinda annoying cuz it's hard to measure 100mg haha

[bizzbee]

Yes mine came with one. The LJ100 feels stronger than the Lost Empire, it also would lead to a headache afterwards if I took around two tablets (160mg). The pine pollen tincture doesn't seem to have made a dent. I think I'll finish it anyway in order to definitively know whether or not it helps. For each kind of herb that I have, I may buy from another brand in order to compare with Lost Empire. The LJ100 elicits a strong response for sure, and that at 80 mg. Perhaps my dosing needs some calibration using this scooper they provided with the packet. I used about two scoops. I think I'll up it to three to see what happens. But the workouts were killer. Really haven't had a workout like that since I was probably normal before PFS. There just wasn't the exhaustion and lack of feel for lactic acid burn. I could get more reps, more volume without the sudden exhaustion setting in.

- - - Updated - - -

I hope the other herbs pack a bigger punch. The pine pollen and it's tincture have been underwhelming.

[jacknap]

for me the one's I feel the most are butea superba, tribulus, ashwagandha, pine pollen powder, rhodiola

if you can afford it try upping the dose. I can get ashwagandha very cheap here so I sometimes dose 25 grams of it in a day and it produces a drug like effect. lol

[bizzbee]

What do you feel when you try the butea superba?


for me the one's I feel the most are butea superba, tribulus, ashwagandha, pine pollen powder, rhodiola

if you can afford it try upping the dose. I can get ashwagandha very cheap here so I sometimes dose 25 grams of it in a day and it produces a drug like effect. lol

[jacknap]

i've cited this before but increased heart rate, hornyness, aggression. it only lasts a few hours tho

[bizzbee]

Update: The tongkat ali from Lost Empire seems to have done the job, with less side effects than the Source Naturals brand. Just slightly mellower. Happy with purchase. Took black ant extract this morning from Lost Empire. Soon after went for a run of about 1.5 miles with intermittent sprinting.
I am ecstatic to report that energy levels felt like, dare I say, NORMAL? I haven't had a burst of stamina like that since I was NORMAL. It was incredible. Felt soooooo good.

[bizzbee]

Few remaining things to fix:
Erection strength needs some improvement although not bad. (Nothing a little more herb can't fix).
Refractory period still hours apart. Need to be within minutes.
Semen volume and consistency need improvement for sure, but much improved since 5 years ago (back then it was very watery and low volume).
Mood has improved immensely and during pro hormone cycle felt normal for a while. Need that mood to remain consistent.
Muscle strength and density have had some noticeable improvements since end of pro hormone cycle. Still need some work here.

[Cdsnuts]

Few remaining things to fix:
Erection strength needs some improvement although not bad. (Nothing a little more herb can't fix).
Refractory period still hours apart. Need to be within minutes.
Semen volume and consistency need improvement for sure, but much improved since 5 years ago (back then it was very watery and low volume).
Mood has improved immensely and during pro hormone cycle felt normal for a while. Need that mood to remain consistent.
Muscle strength and density have had some noticeable improvements since end of pro hormone cycle. Still need some work here.You'll get there. Congratulations on your improvements this far. You know what you need to do you just have to keep doing it.

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[bizzbee]

Took Cistanche today from Lost Empire(1 teaspoon ~ 1 gram). Didn't do squat. Felt more heavy headed and dizzy as a result. These herbs are hit or miss. I might do a juice feast for a couple of weeks in order to clear everything from my system.

Herbs with definite positive effects so far:

Tongkat Ali
Horny Goat Weed
Black ant extract
Mucuna prurient

Herbs with no effect:
Cistanche
Pine Pollen (not sure)
Lion's Mane

Herbs To still try:
stay tuned

[biatch]

Cd, I remember you took 4 cycle of R andro followed by herbs as PCT to recover 100% right?
How much time does it mean?
Cause from your old description of facts, it was looking more easy than what it seems for many others.

[bizzbee]

It was 4 cycles of PP androhard if I'm not mistaken and the PCT was sustain alpha and some other things (Toco). He cycled about 7-10 herbs (this is all from his posts on PH). The first real cycle of R-andro (my experience with it) was definitely helpful in some areas. Some of the herbs may not work for everyone. The key is to find enough herbs that are helpful and just rotate them. I might try royal jelly next. See what happens.


Cd, I remember you took 4 cycle of R andro followed by herbs as PCT to recover 100% right?
How much time does it mean?
Cause from your old description of facts, it was looking more easy than what it seems for many others.

[bizzbee]

Dammit. I had high hopes for the cistanche after reading the description. I think I'll try 2 grams next time to see what happens. I can always return it if I see no results. Let's see, schisandra berry looks to be next ...

EDIT:

I see that recommended doses for distance appear to be lower than a gram, 1/2 a gram at most. Maybe go lower next time? This sort of thing may need some tweaking.

[Cdsnuts]

Cd, I remember you took 4 cycle of R andro followed by herbs as PCT to recover 100% right?
How much time does it mean?
Cause from your old description of facts, it was looking more easy than what it seems for many others.What is your point?

And that is far from the only thing I did to recover 100%. You need to do more reading. And believe me calling it easy would be ignorant

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[bizzbee]

Hello All,

I'm looking for herbs to combat adrenal fatigue/insufficiency. From my research it looks like maral root, eleuthero, he shou wu, schisandra, rhodiola fit the bill. If anyone has had positive experiences with any of these please let me know. I already have schisandra and eleuthero in possession.

Also,
Hoping this Bacopa is available again from LE herbs. Haven't tried it yet but really want to get my hands on it.

[bizzbee]

Holy F$#k! I have not seen this kind of definition in my body since I was normal. And I'm actually 10 lbs heavier than I was when I started to really attack this problem just 5 years ago. Gotta keep this going till normality is reached. Will post photos when PCT is finished.

[bizzbee]

Took Eleuthero 1/4 teaspoon this morning. Feel alright. No worse. Maybe a little better. There is a bounce in my step.

[biatch]

What is your point?

And that is far from the only thing I did to recover 100%. You need to do more reading. And believe me calling it easy would be ignorant

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There is no point, it is just a consideration about "recovery time".
I guess "the protocol" is the only thing since we are all running it and just it, as suggested to get 100%

[Cdsnuts]

Hello All,

I'm looking for herbs to combat adrenal fatigue/insufficiency. From my research it looks like maral root, eleuthero, he shou wu, schisandra, rhodiola fit the bill. If anyone has had positive experiences with any of these please let me know. I already have schisandra and eleuthero in possession.

Also,
Hoping this Bacopa is available again from LE herbs. Haven't tried it yet but really want to get my hands on it.

Biz...

All of the herbs recommended are recommended for a reason. They all work in one way or another to get your system back up and running. Just run the recommended herbs as outlined and you'll get there.

[jacknap]

Biz...

All of the herbs recommended are recommended for a reason. They all work in one way or another to get your system back up and running. Just run the recommended herbs as outlined and you'll get there.

yes they slowly build and knudge your system in the right direction. I wouldn't bin anything just because you're not feeling it right away. Hell some naturopaths like Andrew Weil say u need to be on herbs for MONTHS to see benefits. I think that's a bit extreme and more aligned with what cdnuts says about herb usage.

[bizzbee]

Ok fellas, thanks for the input. I wasn't planning on binning anything anytime soon. Perhaps there is a buildup period with some of these herbs. I think I may add maral root, still a little sketchy on he shou wu since anything purporting to regrow hair is something I have become instinctively wary of, regardless of what mechanism is used.

[Cdsnuts]

Ok fellas, thanks for the input. I wasn't planning on binning anything anytime soon. Perhaps there is a buildup period with some of these herbs. I think I may add maral root, still a little sketchy on he shou wu since anything purporting to regrow hair is something I have become instinctively wary of, regardless of what mechanism is used.ALL of the recommended herbs are safe and recommended for a reason. Cycle accordingly.

And just to be clear like all parts of this program you may not notice anything in the beginning. The fact that you get a response out of some of them so soon is just a plus. You need to cycle them diligently and let them do their work on your system. These things take time just like the whole rest of the protocol does

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[bizzbee]

I am tempted to say at this point that muscle atrophy and bloating looks to be a thing of the past (keeping fingers crossed). I look f#@king rock hard. This is almost two weeks post cycle (about 10-12 days?). Still kinda PCT phase I guess. The herbs that sort of gave me some brain fog or heavy headedness did not seem to make things worse in this regard, perhaps enhanced things. I can't believe this as I'm writing this. But I feel like I'm f%$king months away from being cured. Maybe one or two more cycles of pro hormone is what I need. Goddamn, even the coffee which used to work against me and made me feel god awful and bloated is now working as it should and is helping to burn fat and make me look ripped. The cognitive function and memory recall has improved by much. I feel like I could solve the grand problem of unification in physics (well I wouldn't go that far).

[jacknap]

fuck bro hope I can get my chiseled look back too and that I can get the prohormones over here in canada lol

happy for you :) if you look back at cd's log on PH you can see the dude tried almost everything in the sun, so if it's cd recommended we gotta do it up.

[Cdsnuts]

I am tempted to say at this point that muscle atrophy and bloating looks to be a thing of the past (keeping fingers crossed). I look f#@king rock hard. This is almost two weeks post cycle (about 10-12 days?). Still kinda PCT phase I guess. The herbs that sort of gave me some brain fog or heavy headedness did not seem to make things worse in this regard, perhaps enhanced things. I can't believe this as I'm writing this. But I feel like I'm f%$king months away from being cured. Maybe one or two more cycles of pro hormone is what I need. Goddamn, even the coffee which used to work against me and made me feel god awful and bloated is now working as it should and is helping to burn fat and make me look ripped. The cognitive function and memory recall has improved by much. I feel like I could solve the grand problem of unification in physics (well I wouldn't go that far).When I first came out of my thick fog my normal working brain felt like a supercomputer. I know exactly what you're feeling.

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[bizzbee]

Today,

Black Maca 1 tablespoon. 30 drops of Pine pollen tincture. It's probably best to take the pine pollen in the morning. Maybe the night time application is what causes problems. Some of that rock hardness has gone away this morning. Last night had strong erection and ok libido. This hardness going away will come back I'm sure but I think fapping is what made it go away for a while. Should refrain from fapping.

Update: The first time I tried maca was around 2012. I used to take in a few grams of the gelatinized black variety. This gave me all of the purported benefits at the time but the effects wore off with continued use. This time, after about 5 years or so, I felt no difference whatsoever. In fact, some bloating has returned. I may return this maca or try a different brand.

The dry skin may actually be due to coffee intake. Caffeine is known to have this effect on skin.

The eleuthero herb seemed to have good effect.

Schisandra is next. Perhaps maral root in the near future.

[bizzbee]

Schisandra berries 1 teaspoon this morning. I like the taste. Some of these herbs may take a while to work so will have to be patient. Though I like the herbs that are fast acting. Thinking of getting gotu kola to supplement lion's mane and bacopa.

[Cdsnuts]

Schisandra berries 1 teaspoon this morning. I like the taste. Some of these herbs may take a while to work so will have to be patient. Though I like the herbs that are fast acting. Thinking of getting gotu kola to supplement lion's mane and bacopa.The gotu Kola, bacopa and lion's mane combo is phenomenal for brain power

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[bizzbee]

Thanks CD.


The gotu Kola, bacopa and lion's mane combo is phenomenal for brain power

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[bizzbee]

Ok, I think it's time to close out this thread. My experiences, I hope, have been informative to some who are considering using pro hormones in order to accelerate recovery. The next cycle will be just straight R-Andro, either topical or oral form. We shall see. Second cycle will commence in 8 weeks approximately.

Improvements:
Muscle density and strength
Muscle atrophy reduced
Energy levels have improved by much
Mood has improved

[biatch]

Ok, I think it's time to close out this thread. My experiences, I hope, have been informative to some who are considering using pro hormones in order to accelerate recovery. The next cycle will be just straight R-Andro, either topical or oral form. We shall see. Second cycle will commence in 8 weeks approximately.

Improvements:
Muscle density and strength
Muscle atrophy reduced
Energy levels have improved by much
Mood has improved

Hey Bizzbee,
I just saw you posted on propeciahelp.com in the recovery section "90% recovered".
Happy to hear that.
I am most than everything focused about your sexual improvements, congrats.