Muscle wastage and working out

[basementdweller]

I've experienced pretty bad muscle loss and weakness in the <3 months since my crash. I'm just wondering if there's anyone else here who had this? How long did it take before you were able to workout? I realize everyone's different, I'm just feeling frustrated that I'm still losing muscle. Stretching, bodyweight squats and pushups is about all I can handle right now without making myself worse.

An OATS test from my naturopath showed that I'm in ketosis, so maybe I should up my carbs?

[jacknap]

how do u know that u have muscle wastage?

when i was in ketosis I was nowhere near the strength i have now that I have carb backload so definitely add that post workout and your strength should explode

[basementdweller]

How do I know I have muscle wastage? I've lost 30 pounds, and I'm weak as shit. My T is extremely low, not just "lowish". Bioavailable T was only 1.5 (3.6-11.2) post crash so definitely lost muscle from that. I'm getting it checked again in a week though

Did you get bloods post crash? more carb backloading should help a bit, but I can't do any real training until I get my T levels up.

[jacknap]

if you saw my bloods in my first post my free T was just a few points from being hypogonadal lol.

and I was still training on like 3-5 hours of sleep. so i think it can be done. just don't try to be a hero and break your back lol. obviously you're gunna lose muscle if u haven't been training and eating keto tho dude

my dht was strangely high tho... how can u have such low free T and high dht makes no sense to me

[basementdweller]

You are in range though, My bioavailable T is practically non-existent. Upping the herbs and carbs is all I can do now I guess

[Swill]

i was training post crash with below range T and it helped pull me out of the funk... I'm not saying go batshit crazy from day 1, but start working out now... you will be rewarded with hormones as a result. Its all about forcing your body to do what it should be doing.

Take it slow, and build. And hammer carbs post workout... fuel the fire.

[basementdweller]

thanks dude, are you strict paleo? I feel like I have to start adding in a bit of rice or something. Potatoes is my only significant source of carbs right now and it's obviously not enough.

I've never done well on a strict paleo diet, I lost a lot of weight when I went on one for chronic fatigue syndrome years ago - I could still work out though.

[Durantia37]

thanks dude, are you strict paleo? I feel like I have to start adding in a bit of rice or something. Potatoes is my only significant source of carbs right now and it's obviously not enough.

I've never done well on a strict paleo diet, I lost a lot of weight when I went on one for chronic fatigue syndrome years ago - I could still work out though.

I don't think I could do completely strict paleo either. I add in peanut butter, milk, orange juice, occasional rice. I personally think a gluten- and intoxicant-free organic whole food diet is enough to keep stability, but that's just my experience.

[Cdsnuts]

thanks dude, are you strict paleo? I feel like I have to start adding in a bit of rice or something. Potatoes is my only significant source of carbs right now and it's obviously not enough.

I've never done well on a strict paleo diet, I lost a lot of weight when I went on one for chronic fatigue syndrome years ago - I could still work out though.

If you don't think it's enough, eat more.

I'm at the point now that if I eat carbs during the day, I almost need a nap. Not only that, they make me hold water something fierce. This is all alleviated by back loading. For those that are familiar with it, it is a pretty amazing feeling to smash a big carby meal and have all those carbs get shuttled directly into the muscle.

[rahaysa]

I've experienced pretty bad muscle loss and weakness in the <3 months since my crash. I'm just wondering if there's anyone else here who had this? How long did it take before you were able to workout? I realize everyone's different, I'm just feeling frustrated that I'm still losing muscle. Stretching, bodyweight squats and pushups is about all I can handle right now without making myself worse.

An OATS test from my naturopath showed that I'm in ketosis, so maybe I should up my carbs?


i have experinced muscle wastage ... after i crashed i got man boobs ... and i alsolost muscle in my arms and hips ... my hips havent recovered from the muscle wastage yet to an extent i can be happy ... but arms are doing good ...

most of my pants have become unfit due to muscle wastage in hips ... i feel its a very slow process from muscle wastage to muscle building ..

[basementdweller]

i have experinced muscle wastage ... after i crashed i got man boobs ... and i alsolost muscle in my arms and hips ... my hips havent recovered from the muscle wastage yet to an extent i can be happy ... but arms are doing good ...

most of my pants have become unfit due to muscle wastage in hips ... i feel its a very slow process from muscle wastage to muscle building ..



How long ago was your crash?

It started out really bad in my legs (none of my pants fit me anymore either). My legs seem to have stabilized but now my upper body, especially my arms are wasting.

[DKnighten]

Guys do you have any update on this? I have experienced significant muscle wastage. I am 5 months post taking the drug (only a single 1mg pill) and have been eating healthy, perhaps not enough total intake, but I definitely have wastage, not simply atrophy. I don't get a full pump like I used to, and my muscles are flat now. This is truly heartbreaking. Has anyone experienced muscle wastage that has improved?

[Maxout777]

Guys do you have any update on this? I have experienced significant muscle wastage. I am 5 months post taking the drug (only a single 1mg pill) and have been eating healthy, perhaps not enough total intake, but I definitely have wastage, not simply atrophy. I don't get a full pump like I used to, and my muscles are flat now. This is truly heartbreaking. Has anyone experienced muscle wastage that has improved?

I had awful muscle wastage and I recovered it no problem. Quit studying individual symptoms and just get to doing the right thing and it’ll all come back. Too many people in your spot focus on individual symptoms, this is a systemic issue that causes each symptom. They cannot be treated individually.

[DKnighten]

I had awful muscle wastage and I recovered it no problem. Quit studying individual symptoms and just get to doing the right thing and it’ll all come back. Too many people in your spot focus on individual symptoms, this is a systemic issue that causes each symptom. They cannot be treated individually.

The right thing being a Juice feast and then implementing the protocol? I created a post on this, but if you have any advice on the juice feast please let me know, specifically should I be exercising while on the feast and coming off, what foods should I eat initially so that I don't overload my GI system?

[Maxout777]

The right thing being a Juice feast and then implementing the protocol? I created a post on this, but if you have any advice on the juice feast please let me know, specifically should I be exercising while on the feast and coming off, what foods should I eat initially so that I don't overload my GI system?

Juice feast or water fast. Do not exercise on either. As far as refeeding goes, I would go slow on vegetables and broths, maybe some bone broths and veggies in a crock pot for a week and work up to chicken breasts, and other meats, and then back to relatively normal eating.

For water fasting it will be a little different, I would recommend doing some research on the internet regarding refeeding.

[DKnighten]

Alright. Is there another heavy duty blender I can use for my juice feasts? I noticed the K-Tech blender is pretty expensive, and all I have at my disposal now is a nutribullet, which does not hold much at all.

[Maxout777]

Alright. Is there another heavy duty blender I can use for my juice feasts? I noticed the K-Tech blender is pretty expensive, and all I have at my disposal now is a nutribullet, which does not hold much at all.

I’m not 100% sure as to if the Nutribullet will work or not. I used a Vitamix. You have any juice bar or similar type place near you? If money isn’t as much a factor, that can provide ease.

[Marquis]

Having just come off the back of my juice feast, I can tell you that a Nutri-bullet won't be nearly big enough. I used a 1.5L Philips blender (although it probably holds max 2L) and I wouldn't have wanted it any smaller. It's hardly top-of-the-range like the K-tech, but it did the job pretty well. One tip I'd give is that if you're using a lower-tier blender like I did, you'll need to start with a fair amount of liquid to get a good blend going, otherwise it'll get stuck on the leafy greens and the bigger chunks of fruit/vegetables - I used some juice from the previous blend to get each batch going.

[DKnighten]

I’m not 100% sure as to if the Nutribullet will work or not. I used a Vitamix. You have any juice bar or similar type place near you? If money isn’t as much a factor, that can provide ease.

I may have to invest in a slightly larger blender. I don't have an organic juice bar near me, and money is very much a factor unfortunately. So I'm going to lose a shit load of weight and turn into a skeleton once I do this juice fast right lol. I'm only 152 lbs 5'8 as it is.

[DKnighten]

Thanks for the response. I'll have to get a larger blender for this purpose. Did you just follow the protocol and use 1lb celery, 2lbs leafy greens, etc? Did you make just random juices? Did you buy these all from fresh produce? Also, what about bananas?

[basementdweller]

Guys do you have any update on this? I have experienced significant muscle wastage. I am 5 months post taking the drug (only a single 1mg pill) and have been eating healthy, perhaps not enough total intake, but I definitely have wastage, not simply atrophy. I don't get a full pump like I used to, and my muscles are flat now. This is truly heartbreaking. Has anyone experienced muscle wastage that has improved?

Very positive updates for me. I have basically put back all my muscle. My forearms and shoulders are still a bit thin but my legs and core are significantly bigger than they were pre pfs. Give it time, I'm a year and 8 months into this now

[Cdsnuts]

I may have to invest in a slightly larger blender. I don't have an organic juice bar near me, and money is very much a factor unfortunately. So I'm going to lose a shit load of weight and turn into a skeleton once I do this juice fast right lol. I'm only 152 lbs 5'8 as it is.

You can't go wrong with investing in a good blender. My K-tech is over a decade old and it's still going strong. Quality piece of machinery. So is the Vita-mix. The nutribullet isn't going to cut it.

And yes, you are going to lose weight, I looked like a cancer patient after each one of my four water fasts. But when you start building again, it's quality muscle. If you've never cleansed before you're going to be getting rid of alot of internal garbage. You'll be starting to build on a new, solid foundation.

[Marquis]

Thanks for the response. I'll have to get a larger blender for this purpose. Did you just follow the protocol and use 1lb celery, 2lbs leafy greens, etc? Did you make just random juices? Did you buy these all from fresh produce? Also, what about bananas?

Yeah, 1lb each of kale, spinach, celery and a large cucumber (plus apples and pears to taste - generally around 4-6 of each) as outlined on TotalMaleOptimisation were the cornerstone of my juice feast - I'd do it across 4 batches, and it'd make about 4 quarts of liquid once squeezed. I'd then make a quart or two of something sweeter for a treat - plums, pineapple, grapes, melon, blueberries and watermelon all work fairly well alone or in combo with one other.

Banana pulp can't be strained through a nutmilk bag, so you'll have to leave them out. I also had real trouble with peaches, strawberries and raspberries - the pulp tends to just sit in the bag and no matter how hard I squeezed, very little liquid came out. Same with oranges, so they should be squeezed with a hand juicer rather than blended and strained.

I consumed 90% fresh produce, with a little high-quality store-bought orange juice (sans bits), apple juice and coconut water. Probably not as good as fresh produce, but I was away from home for a couple of days and there are only so many bottles of green smoothie you can pack in an overnight bag.

Good luck on your cleanse!

[DKnighten]

Yeah, 1lb each of kale, spinach, celery and a large cucumber (plus apples and pears to taste - generally around 4-6 of each) as outlined on TotalMaleOptimisation were the cornerstone of my juice feast - I'd do it across 4 batches, and it'd make about 4 quarts of liquid once squeezed. I'd then make a quart or two of something sweeter for a treat - plums, pineapple, grapes, melon, blueberries and watermelon all work fairly well alone or in combo with one other.

Banana pulp can't be strained through a nutmilk bag, so you'll have to leave them out. I also had real trouble with peaches, strawberries and raspberries - the pulp tends to just sit in the bag and no matter how hard I squeezed, very little liquid came out. Same with oranges, so they should be squeezed with a hand juicer rather than blended and strained.

I consumed 90% fresh produce, with a little high-quality store-bought orange juice (sans bits), apple juice and coconut water. Probably not as good as fresh produce, but I was away from home for a couple of days and there are only so many bottles of green smoothie you can pack in an overnight bag.

Good luck on your cleanse!

I appreciate the details. One last thing, did you use anything specifically to wash the fresh produce, or did you just run all of it under cold water before throwing it in the blender? I imagine some kind of natural produce wash would be ideal..idk maybe not.

[Marquis]

I appreciate the details. One last thing, did you use anything specifically to wash the fresh produce, or did you just run all of it under cold water before throwing it in the blender? I imagine some kind of natural produce wash would be ideal..idk maybe not.

No worries. Nah, I just gave them a good rinse under the tap before cutting them, but that might be a good idea if you can find a clean enough product. Kale tends to come pre-chopped though, and sometimes spinach too - in those cases you don't want to wash them too vigorously or squeeze too much water out, as some of the water-soluble nutrients will be lost with the water.

Oh on that subject, just one more tip - after blending, I'd let the mixture sit in the blender whilst washing/chopping the ingredients for the next batch, to give the water-soluble nutrients a few more minutes to dissolve before straining. Not sure if there's really any science to that, but it doesn't add any extra time or effort to the whole process either.

[DKnighten]

Awesome. After the feast, how slowly did you re-introduce foods? I plan to go for a week, but I probably need to go for 10 days- 2 weeks, as my symptoms are pretty bad. Would whole steamed vegetables and fruits be best at first? Maybe bone broth as well.

[DKnighten]

You can't go wrong with investing in a good blender. My K-tech is over a decade old and it's still going strong. Quality piece of machinery. So is the Vita-mix. The nutribullet isn't going to cut it.

And yes, you are going to lose weight, I looked like a cancer patient after each one of my four water fasts. But when you start building again, it's quality muscle. If you've never cleansed before you're going to be getting rid of alot of internal garbage. You'll be starting to build on a new, solid foundation.

What If I still have progressive muscle wastage even after the feast? Would I have to re-evaluate after I get to that bridge, and possibly go to a water cleanse? TBH I'm not sure how I would be able to do so, as I start a DPT program in May.

[Marquis]

Awesome. After the feast, how slowly did you re-introduce foods? I plan to go for a week, but I probably need to go for 10 days- 2 weeks, as my symptoms are pretty bad. Would whole steamed vegetables and fruits be best at first? Maybe bone broth as well.

I broke my 2-week cleanse first on orange juice with pulp, then yoghurt and whole fruit, but by the evening I was straight back onto my regular foods (paleo obviously). Probably wasn't wise, but I didn't have any negative effects whatsoever (apart from maybe feeling fuller on a little less food).

The juice cleanse is an excellent opportunity to find out if you've got any food sensitivities though - you may want to wait a couple of weeks before reintroducing dairy, to see if you feel any different when you eventually do. Most people in the Western world probably haven't gone 10 days in their life without consuming dairy in one form or another.

If you've recently been experiencing any recurring digestive issues or autoimmune-like symptoms, you may even want to go the whole hog and try an Autoimmune Protocol-style reintroduction period for various food groups. While juice-feasting, if you're not consuming any nightshades you'll be avoiding all the known trigger-foods, and once you stop blending your fruits and vegetables, and add meat/fish back into your diet, you'll basically be on the strictest version of the AIP diet already. I've never really had any digestive issues that didn't clear up when I went paleo and this was a little too extreme for me, but I know English was big on his gut health and felt it played an instrumental part in his recovery.

[Cdsnuts]

I appreciate the details. One last thing, did you use anything specifically to wash the fresh produce, or did you just run all of it under cold water before throwing it in the blender? I imagine some kind of natural produce wash would be ideal..idk maybe not.

This is the main reason I recommend organic for feasting purposes. No chemicals and you just have to give them a quick rinse.

- - - Updated - - -


I broke my 2-week cleanse first on orange juice with pulp, then yoghurt and whole fruit, but by the evening I was straight back onto my regular foods (paleo obviously). Probably wasn't wise, but I didn't have any negative effects whatsoever (apart from maybe feeling fuller on a little less food).

The juice cleanse is an excellent opportunity to find out if you've got any food sensitivities though - you may want to wait a couple of weeks before reintroducing dairy, to see if you feel any different when you eventually do. Most people in the Western world probably haven't gone 10 days in their life without consuming dairy in one form or another.

If you've recently been experiencing any recurring digestive issues or autoimmune-like symptoms, you may even want to go the whole hog and try an Autoimmune Protocol-style reintroduction period for various food groups. While juice-feasting, if you're not consuming any nightshades you'll be avoiding all the known trigger-foods, and once you stop blending your fruits and vegetables, and add meat/fish back into your diet, you'll basically be on the strictest version of the AIP diet already. I've never really had any digestive issues that didn't clear up when I went paleo and this was a little too extreme for me, but I know English was big on his gut health and felt it played an instrumental part in his recovery.

They say the gut is the "second brain"

[DKnighten]

Could some of you guys help with talking me through what your diet looked like post juice feast or water fast? I know the protocol suggests a paleo diet with carbs in the evening on training days, but what did the bulk of the diet consist of? I have had so much muscle wastage and weakness and it seems pointless to even lift weights anymore and i've done it for 6 years! it is so heartbreaking man. I have yet to do my juice feast but I guess I just wanted to get more input before embarking on all of this. I just don't see how I can be fixed at this point.

[Maxout777]

Could some of you guys help with talking me through what your diet looked like post juice feast or water fast? I know the protocol suggests a paleo diet with carbs in the evening on training days, but what did the bulk of the diet consist of? I have had so much muscle wastage and weakness and it seems pointless to even lift weights anymore and i've done it for 6 years! it is so heartbreaking man. I have yet to do my juice feast but I guess I just wanted to get more input before embarking on all of this. I just don't see how I can be fixed at this point.

I would lookup refeeding protocols. You can find these on the internet and on other forums. Refeed back until you can do regular paleo for a few weeks, then kick in backloading on your workout days after that time has passed.

[Cdsnuts]

Could some of you guys help with talking me through what your diet looked like post juice feast or water fast? I know the protocol suggests a paleo diet with carbs in the evening on training days, but what did the bulk of the diet consist of? I have had so much muscle wastage and weakness and it seems pointless to even lift weights anymore and i've done it for 6 years! it is so heartbreaking man. I have yet to do my juice feast but I guess I just wanted to get more input before embarking on all of this. I just don't see how I can be fixed at this point.

Honestly, you don't have to see how you can be fixed. Just know that you can be, and will be, should you stay the course. I know it seems insurmountable in the beginning, but you have to start somewhere.