Bone Loss...Can we recover???

[Hulk Smash]

I decided to start this thread as I recently posted my concerns about this in mine. Bone loss, the greatly feared and crazy sounding side-effect. Yes, its out there and I'm now showing very strong signs of this. But, can we recover this?

The answer is...
Most likely YES!!!

The issue is that the longer we take to get to full recovery might mean further bone loss and it isn't certain how much can be recovered.
However, there is a TRT study I found of cardiac transplant patients who suffered bone loss after the transplant.
Apparently, the transplant throws patients into hypogonadism and thus they suffer bone loss.

They were supplemented with IBN and TRT some both, some only one of the two. The most significant bone increase was in men given TRT. Keep in mind most of these men are probably much older than us and yet they regenerated bone mass.
Remember this is AFTER 5 YEARS of treatment.

Stay positive and don't lose hope. And most importantly, get on the regimen and remember "TIME & CONSISTENCY = RESULTS!" - CD

Testosterone replacement has a substantial benefit on bone mass, fracture incidence, libido, and sexual activities in male cardiac transplant patients: a 5-year randomized prospective controlled trial
(http://www.bone-abstracts.org/ba/0001/ba0001OC5.6.htm)

Here is another study with similar findings:

http://www.renalandurologynews.com/hypogonadism/trt-for-hypogonadism-may-improve-anemia-bone-mineral-density/article/639492/

[Pageidol]

You’ve just answered your own question matey, the bone loss recovers when everything is sorted out, ive already shaken my moon face and im rocking a chisled jawline once again.

[pvdl.]

You’ve just answered your own question matey, the bone loss recovers when everything is sorted out, ive already shaken my moon face and im rocking a chisled jawline once again.

Generally I am not interested in posting on this forum anymore. But since this symptom is close to my heart and not acknowledged by the foundation yet, I want to respond to the above post.

Facial bone loss means that your jaw, chin and cheekbones LOSE bone mass . The top layer of bone is lost and your jaw/cheekbone and chin are smaller and less thick. This results in the face looking smaller and less chiseled.

BONE loss is not what you describe above, i.e. moonface. Moonface is when you gain a lot of fat in your face which hides your bone structure resulting in a less chiseled look. As soon as you lose the facial fat your bone structure can be seen again. Your bone structure has thus not reduced in size but has been hidden under an increased fat layer. All you have described is that you gained fat in your face and then lost it again.

If you have facial bone loss it often goes hand in hand with collagen loss, i.e. with a decrease of facial fat. You lose facial fat/ collagen and bone.

Again fat gain in the face has NOTHING to do with bone loss. Pls dont confuse two totally unrelated symptoms.

If anyone has a legitimate case of facial bone loss (jaw, chin and/or cheekbones), i.e. as described in this post (NOT moonface), pls contact the foundation as they will add it to their symptom list if enough people confirm that the symptom exists (I have discussed this with them this month). Just write an email to Philip Roberts: proberts@pfsfoundation.org. Pls only do this if you are certain that you actually have this symptom.

[road to recover]

Facial bone loss means that your jaw, chin and cheekbones LOSE bone mass . The top layer of bone is lost and your jaw/cheekbone and chin are smaller and less thick. This results in the face looking smaller and less chiseled.

BONE loss is not what you describe above, i.e. moonface. Moonface is when you gain a lot of fat in your face which hides your bone structure resulting in a less chiseled look. As soon as you lose the facial fat your bone structure can be seen again. Your bone structure has thus not reduced in size but has been hidden under an increased fat layer. All you have described is that you gained fat in your face and then lost it again.

If you have facial bone loss it often goes hand in hand with collagen loss, i.e. with a decrease of facial fat. You lose facial fat/ collagen and bone.



You are confusing facial "bone loss" with facial muscle loss.

[pvdl.]

You are confusing facial "bone loss" with facial muscle loss.

No i am not. My brother has lost bone mass. I also have lost bone mass in the jaw cheekbones and chin although not quite as dramatically as my brother. Pls dont tell me what I am confusing if you do not have the symptom or know someone who has it. You can also lose muscle I am not disputing that. I am talking about bone mass though.

[road to recover]

No i am not. My brother has lost bone mass. I also have lost bone mass in the jaw cheekbones and chin although not quite as dramatically as my brother. Pls dont tell me what I am confusing if you do not have the symptom or know someone who has it. You can also lose muscle I am not disputing that. I am talking about bone mass though.

How exactly can you measure this? I do have this symptom as you describe it, but it's loss of facial muscle which makes the face feel thinner, not bone loss.

[Hulk Smash]

I think we surely have muscle loss, some have a mix of both. The only test I know is called BMD (bone mineral density) test. There may be another but I'm not sure of the name.

However, the study I posted above hints at bone loss being a symptom of low Testo, and can be recovered. Oddly enough it is the same areas they measured where I notice thinning/skin-wrinkles of my body and less full feeling overall: neck, back, hips, etc...

The good news is we have a chance to beat this, and I can't wait to see our recovery posts! Get on board Pvdl!

[pvdl.]

How exactly can you measure this? I do have this symptom as you describe it, but it's loss of facial muscle which makes the face feel thinner, not bone loss.

I think there is a scan you can do but it is only helpful if you have a scan before and after the event.

Again its not facial muscle. I know this for 100% because my brother has bone loss. His entire jawline and chin has basically disappeared. This isnt muscle loss, its bone bone loss. I have this as well although not quite as severely as my brother.

YOU! might have muscle loss. I know that my brother and myself have bone loss though. It is obvious when you see an extreme case like my brother. I think you would like us to have muscle loss because it sounds easier to recover muscle versus bone. I believe if we could cure PFS the bone mass would regrow however.

I know for 100% its bone loss. My brother had a very prominent chin and a jawline which has basically disappeared (visually speaking). If you would know my brother you would know that its impossible to explain this transformation without bone loss. We had a sharp pain in our facial bone structure when this happened (coming and going for a couple of months). All of this is bone loss and has nothing to do with muscle loss. Thanks.

[Hulk Smash]

I think I read HGH also affects bone mass.

Also keep in mind a gluten-free diet is key to ensuring proper nutrient absorption, such as calcium and vitamin D.

All part of the regimen.

[Pageidol]

You settling in here quite nicely pvdl lol 😂

[Hulk Smash]

Heres an update on bone loss/growth.

Most bone loss is probably mostly APPOSITIONAL BONE MATTER
(bone width)

There is potential to regrow when all is optimal and physical activity is condusive to growing this type of mass

Potential Bone loss factors:

Drop in testo
" " in DHT
Loss of mineral concentration
Osteoclast/osteoblast imbalance
Possible protein or some other matter "attacking" bones.


Bone regrowth formula:

Increase testo
" " DHT
" " minerals

fix osteo balance, if out of balance* its a big maybe*
(osteoclast/blast balance needs testing and probably continuous oversight).

Bone broth and collagen increase should also help.

Train in impact sports; (activity that shocks the bone) such as football, baseball, basketball, sprinting etc.

Shock activity is what grows bone thickness according to research.
People who engage in sports during youth have 25% greater appositional bone mass on average compared to non impact active peoples.

Some of us could probably agree the mass we lost is a 15-25% equivalent.

Some have measured height after pfs and see no loss. But width seems to have changed.

These conclusions are all thru research, deductive analysis and experience.
I hope this helps to improve this aspect of recovery.

Keep in mind that nose and jaw size changes throughout life according to some studies, and can continue growing in adults. Seems these areas change according to environment.

[Hulk Smash]

BONE LOSS RECOVERY PROTOCOL - *NEED TO COMPLETE CD'S REGIMEN FIRST* * THIS IS MOSTLY AN EXPLANATION OF HOW THE REGIMEN WILL RECOVER BONE*

In PFS, bone loss is possible even if you have normal calcium levels.
It is preventable and reversible.

FOLLOWING THIS PROTOCOL SHOULD MAKE MUSCLES MORE PRONOUNCED, BROADEN SHOULDERS, ENHANCE BIOMECHANICS, BUILD OVERALL BONE MASS, & COULD EVEN INCREASE SOME HEIGHT(from feet bone mass increase).

1. Many guys lost APPOSITIONAL bone mass or will slowly be losing it. APPOSITIONAL means diametric or circumference, NOT LENGTH OR DENSITY.

2. Signs of bone loss are faint lines on forearms, wrists, biceps, chest, collar bone regiion, extra lines on palm of hands and soles of feet, extra wrinkles on face, pain in bones when pressure is applied such as someone squeezing your hand, feet not filling in shoes fully, rings not fitting etc...

3. Bone density is not the same as appositional bone mass. Bone density is the inside of the bone whereas appositional bone is the outer region.

4. Having great bone density doesn't mean one isn't losing bone mass. It means your bones are more resistant to breaking. *CD's regimen primarily builds up bone density and is the vital first step before building appositional mass* "It gets better when you continue after recovery" -CD

5. Bone loss is primarily from the outer layer/surface of the bone, hence bones do not break when lifting, but the shrinking still happens.

MOST LIKELY TRIGGERS OF PFS BONE LOSS

A. Low calcium in blood (consistently found in pfs)

B. Normal levels of calcium only prevent shrinking but will not rebuild bone

C. Low calcium levels in the blood triggers the parathyroid to over-produce osteoclasts (bone cells), that leech calcium from the bones to release into the blood. This is the body going into survival mode thinking there isn't enough calcium for the body. Think of this like when the body burns through fat storage during famine.

D. Lack of impact/shock/sport activity. Sport/schock is what increases the bodies production of osteoblasts (bone building cells). *Swimming and cycling do not build appositional bone mass*

E. *Possibly* Under-active or weak intestines and kidneys may play a role in poor calcium regulation. The herbs and regimen will recover these.

F. Under-active thyroid glands. These help regulate bone metabolism, when fully active.

*Weight lifting should be the primary sport we engage in during recovery journey. We lack density during crash mode and need Testo and HGH boost to aid in bone and total recovery.*

*Other sports (baseball, basketball, football) are better practiced after a substantial percentage of recovery has been achieved or there is risk for more appositional bone loss etc.*

HOW TO RECOVER? DO THE REGIMEN FIRST

A. Recover thyroid and parathyroid

B. Recover kidneys and intestines

C. Maintain normal levels of calcium during recovery mode. Then switch to high calcium intake after overall recovery. The high calcium along with sport activity (basketball, baseball, football, etc.) will signal the body to produce osteoblasts, sending the excess calcium to the outer layer of the bones, thus increasing appositional bone mass or thickness.

D. IMPORTANT, after CD's recovery is achieved, its probably best to cycle between high and normal level calcium intake as you practice sport. Ex. One week do high calcium, next week do normal calcium. Do this for one month, then do only normal calcium the next month. Reset and repeat. This is to minimize over-stressing the bodies metabolism and prevent calcium overload which is toxic to organs and cells.

E. Keep cortisol (stress) as low as possible using the regimen.

WARNING

*Follow CD's protocol first. It lays the foundation for bone growth to be possible. The herbs speed up the healing of the organs needed for this to work. Doing otherwise is probably a waste of money and time, will make you lose more bone and could further complicate your condition.*

Took me 2-3 years to compile this data. It is likely to be atleast 90% accurate as far as pfs bone issues are concerned. The other 10% could be things missing, not things being incorrect.
Its all based on scientific papers, peer review research, personal observations and private research.

Thank you CD for laying the foundation and encouraging me to continue.

A few source links with more detailed explanation

https://www.coursehero.com/sg/anatom...nd-remodeling/

https://www.coursehero.com/sg/anatom...tional-growth/

Bone Development Growth | SEER Training (https://training.seer.cancer.gov/anatomy/skeletal/growth.html)

Calcium and calcium supplements: Achieving the right balance - Mayo Clinic
(https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/calcium-supplements/art-20047097)

Please consider adding this to the sticky CD. I think it'd motivate many and give another boost to the guys who've reached 100% already.

Thanks again CD.

[mcbbould]

You’re posting this because you’ve recovered born loss using this protocol?

[Hulk Smash]

Is that you Pvdl? O_o

Always doubting and denying but never researching or trying?

[mcbbould]

Huh? I’m not pvdl lol,. I’m just curious if this is a theory or something you’ve tested/proven. This is like a 3 year old thread so I’m guessing this has worked for you, but you never directly stated that you recovered bone loss using this.

[Hulk Smash]

Huh? I’m not pvdl lol,. I’m just curious if this is a theory or something you’ve tested/proven. This is like a 3 year old thread so I’m guessing this has worked for you, but you never directly stated that you recovered bone loss using this.

Its a very short 3 year old thread for a reason. I didnt want to theorize and fill it up the thread with noise. I was searching for answers and found them.

Nothing I wrote is theory. I linked only a few of dozens of studies and research that can be found online. All of the studies proved the appositional mass loss and gain pathway to be true. Every study done showed bone mass gain both in rats and humans.

The only theory would be in answering why is calcium chronically so low in many of our cases and why did the thyroid glands go dysfunctional. I dont have a straight answer for that and neither would i waste time speculating. There probably will not be an answer until 10 yrs from now. Theres a forum dedicated to figuring out exactly what went wrong but here at SS its always been about how to rebuild ourselves back to 100% and beyond. Thats what the protocol is 100% rebuilding. No theory, its just how the body works.

I haven't used the method to recover appositional mass yet. I'm still on my way to 100% via CD's method. I'd say I'm somewhere in the 60-75% range at this present time. The bone protocol will be after/with reaching 90-100% recovery.

I outlined the reasons for waiting before engaging in the bone protocol. And really, it doesnt deviate from CD's regimen, it just gives a little boost beyond 100%. Complete the regimen first. Theres many guys who overload on calcium before reaching 100% and then are writing on forums saying they crashed or have calcium toxicity etc...

This reply isnt just toward you. Its mainly for anyone who might have even more questions, which there shouldnt be.
Read the links i put at the end of the protocol, it spells it out further, a very detailed picture. Its just a matter of deciding to put the effort.

[Hulk Smash]

High cortisol is an issue for many.
There is a pattern of this as with low blood calcium levels.
Get cortisol in control (lower) as per the regimen.

Cortisol and Bone Loss (https://www.google.com/amp/s/mavendoctors.io/osteoporosis/api/amp/osteoporosis/bone-health/cortisol-and-bone-loss-nNDSjj89cUyitv21oY4X8g)

https://new.hindawi.com/journals/jsm/2013/896821/

[Hulk Smash]

Further details of the dysfunction you are recovering from. Its a combination of hormonal loss and hyperparathyroidism. Do the regimen and recover. The last link is a detailed science journal with photos and scans depicting jaw bone loss.


Hyperparathyroidism - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hyperparathyroidism/symptoms-causes/syc-20356194)

Symptoms of Hyperparathyroidism and Symptoms of Parathyroid Disease. (https://www.parathyroid.com/parathyroid-symptoms.htm)

Evidence Based Solving Approach in Diagnosis of Primary Hyperparathyroidism with Oral Manifestations: Report of Three Unusual Cases (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968620/)

[Hulk Smash]

That should be all on this subject for a while. I hope it will answer EVERY question and put every doubt to rest from those dealing with this issue. I feel bad for the guys who came to SS and had the wrong mindset. They spammed and attacked because they didn't find the answers spelled out for them. But that wasn't their downfall. It was their attitude. They had already given up, didn't matter if they had met everyone who already reached beyond 100%. They still wouldn't have believed it possible.

For any newcomers, I did this thread because I needed to understand the regimen would 100% work. I wasn't confident I could recover bone mass, eventhough CD told me about 100x "yes". It was helpful to do the research but all the while I was losing time. Don't do the same.

Read through some info, knowledge is helpful. But start TMO now.

It will take time to recover, but its possible.
The more disciplined you are, the faster you get there.

[Cdsnuts]

That should be all on this subject for a while. I hope it will answer EVERY question and put every doubt to rest from those dealing with this issue. I feel bad for the guys who came to SS and had the wrong mindset. They spammed and attacked because they didn't find the answers spelled out for them. But that wasn't their downfall. It was their attitude. They had already given up, didn't matter if they had met everyone who already reached beyond 100%. They still wouldn't have believed it possible.

For any newcomers, I did this thread because I needed to understand the regimen would 100% work. I wasn't confident I could recover bone mass, eventhough CD told me about 100x "yes". It was helpful to do the research but all the while I was losing time. Don't do the same.

Read through some info, knowledge is helpful. But start TMO now.

It will take time to recover, but its possible.
The more disciplined you are, the faster you get there.

Good advice^^^^^^^^^^^

[Hulk Smash]

More to help you recover bone health.
Mk4 is better than MK7.

Vitamin K Supplement - Science-based Review on Benefits, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com (https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-k/)

[Hulk Smash]

UPDATE:

Bone pain is 90-95% diminished

Strength and stability in hands/wrists sitting at/near 100%

Healthy bone metabolism is almost 100% recovered. I should start seeing bone regrowth within 2-3 months.

What Im doing:

B vitamin complex daily

MK4 & MK7 daily (sometimes both on same day, sometimes alternate)

Calcium 150%-200% daily value everyday (i drink plenty of water throughout the day to ensure proper digestion and no kidney stones).

Beef Organ capsules every other day/every two days.

Vitamin D daily

[Hulk Smash]

UPDATE CONT:

Bone recovery methods

I have been using "fat gripz"

I just started to hold positions for 20-30 seconds to stimulate bone growth, joints, tendons, overall mechanics
Ex: hold knuckle ups position, standing on one foot, etc.

I also take collagen every other day

I think taking ashwaganda daily has also helped.

[Cdsnuts]

UPDATE:

Bone pain is 90-95% diminished

Strength and stability in hands/wrists sitting at/near 100%

Healthy bone metabolism is almost 100% recovered. I should start seeing bone regrowth within 2-3 months.

What Im doing:

B vitamin complex daily

MK4 & MK7 daily (sometimes both on same day, sometimes alternate)

Calcium 150%-200% daily value everyday (i drink plenty of water throughout the day to ensure proper digestion and no kidney stones).

Beef Organ capsules every other day/every two days.

Vitamin D daily

Have you thought about making yourself and nice huge pot of bone broth?

It seems like you're finally turning a corner. Congrats.

[Hulk Smash]

Have you thought about making yourself and nice huge pot of bone broth?

It seems like you're finally turning a corner. Congrats.

Yea, its been a steady build up to this point for maybe the past 3 months.
I'm also focusing on feet, ankle and knee stability, balance and strength.
I'm gonna try bone broth, just need to make time for prepping it.

[Hulk Smash]

Note*
I've been doing TMO.
The TMO protocol is essential for bone recovery, its a main staple as testo and dht are needed for bone health.
The other things I'm doing are for extra support due to taking a very heavy hit in my case specifically.

[Comewhatmay]

Hi Hulk,

I wanted to ask a question in regards to facial changes. I am currently just over 6weeks off the pill and I've seen my face change drastically in this time unfortunately. Mainly collages loss, and dark circles and sunken cheeks. As this has happened so quickly I'm worried this may soon lead to bone loss. I am about to embark on the protocol next week and I am fully aware that by following the protocol everything should go back to pre fin. I just wanted to know if there is anything I could or should be doing to at least stop these changes from getting worse. I understand it will probably take a year plus for physical changes in my face to reverse which I have mentally prepared myself for its just trying to find something to halt the damage just like those who are struggling to sleep and are told that magnesium and glycine can help short term before the protocols effects take over

Thanks in advance

[Mineiro-up]

I would recommend start with a waterfast as long as you can, 6 days minimum. I’ve been eating bone broth since I started TMO at least 3x week (I’ve heard stories of ppl who got worst on colagen, so you have to try, I didn’t noticed nothing bad). There is no magic pill for skin changes, just do the TMO and with time things go takin back in place...fasting, green juices, bone broth, sun expose, cold shower and skin brushing...I did this and in 2 months my face was much healthier than after crash.

[Comewhatmay]

I would recommend start with a waterfast as long as you can, 6 days minimum. I’ve been eating bone broth since I started TMO at least 3x week (I’ve heard stories of ppl who got worst on colagen, so you have to try, I didn’t noticed nothing bad). There is no magic pill for skin changes, just do the TMO and with time things go takin back in place...fasting, green juices, bone broth, sun expose, cold shower and skin brushing...I did this and in 2 months my face was much healthier than after crash.

Thanks for the reply and advice my man, very much appreciated and noted. Will most likely avoid collagen as I've become wary of things which may cause crashes or worsening of symptoms 👍🏽

[Cdsnuts]

Note*
I've been doing TMO.
The TMO protocol is essential for bone recovery, its a main staple as testo and dht are needed for bone health.
The other things I'm doing are for extra support due to taking a very heavy hit in my case specifically.

Yeah, I got it. Good for you. Balance work and neuromuscular work is hugely under valued imo. Especially as we get older, like me....lol

Also, thank you for the additional studies you posted earlier. It all helps.

[Hulk Smash]

Yeah, I got it. Good for you. Balance work and neuromuscular work is hugely under valued imo. Especially as we get older, like me....lol

Also, thank you for the additional studies you posted earlier. It all helps.

My balance has been improving quickly. Just 6 months ago i could barely keep balance when doing squats or lunges. Now im going through workouts with barely any thought of foot or knee placement/stability.

This past month has been a huge jump for me in fitness. Im currently incorporating methods to regenerate my jaw structure, im hoping it works, need that chin and jawline back haha.

[Maxout777]

My balance has been improving quickly. Just 6 months ago i could barely keep balance when doing squats or lunges. Now im going through workouts with barely any thought of foot or knee placement/stability.

This past month has been a huge jump for me in fitness. Im currently incorporating methods to regenerate my jaw structure, im hoping it works, need that chin and jawline back haha.

My chin/jaw line is the best it’s ever been in my entire life currently. Multiple people mention it to me that I haven’t seen in a few years. Looks far better in pictures than it ever did during PFS or prior.

Time is wonderful healer if given the opportunity to do so. Keep the faith man, you’ll get there.

[Hulk Smash]

My chin/jaw line is the best it’s ever been in my entire life currently. Multiple people mention it to me that I haven’t seen in a few years. Looks far better in pictures than it ever did during PFS or prior.

Time is wonderful healer if given the opportunity to do so. Keep the faith man, you’ll get there.

Thanks for sharing your progress and motivation! I'm keeping the faith and its easy as Im already making gains. Do you/did you go the prohormone route? Do you supplement MK4 or MK7?

[xxLUK]

Hey man, I’ve been following your journey for a while now. I’m very inspired by you. I just have a concern, I’ve been doing ridiculous “elimination” diets and got overly caught up in just eating one thing and neglecting many other food groups.(this was the past years on and off lol, not anymore now) I started developing folate deficiency and probably vit d deficiency and god knows what else a while ago. I’ve been eating a well balanced normal diet for this entire year but my question to you is. Do you think the bone loss that I have experienced relating to certain vitamin deficiencies is the same as yours? And will it return once I’m 100% again or no?

Simpler way to ask. Is vitamin deficiency induced bone loss the same as “pfs” bone loss and if so does it have the same degree of likelihood to recover lost bone. I’ve noticed my forearms, wrists, legs, knees and face is thinner than before.

[Hulk Smash]

Hey man, I’ve been following your journey for a while now. I’m very inspired by you. I just have a concern, I’ve been doing ridiculous “elimination” diets and got overly caught up in just eating one thing and neglecting many other food groups.(this was the past years on and off lol, not anymore now) I started developing folate deficiency and probably vit d deficiency and god knows what else a while ago. I’ve been eating a well balanced normal diet for this entire year but my question to you is. Do you think the bone loss that I have experienced relating to certain vitamin deficiencies is the same as yours? And will it return once I’m 100% again or no?

Simpler way to ask. Is vitamin deficiency induced bone loss the same as “pfs” bone loss and if so does it have the same degree of likelihood to recover lost bone. I’ve noticed my forearms, wrists, legs, knees and face is thinner than before.

Whats up LUK,

The chances bone loss will reverse is 80-100%, considering all the info out there. Maxout just commented that his bone mass has increased.
It more than likely depends on how much effort, discipline and time you put into bone health.

Time + consistency = results.

Pfs bone loss can be caused by one or multiple things simultaneously. It all depends what systems in the body have been affected. I lean towards the multiple issues being the case for pfs.
Thyroid hormones, hormonal glands, stress, testosterone, dht and vitamins must all be recovered for bone metabolism to be normal and optimal.
I'm tackling everything bone related for bone recovery.

I posted links throughout this thread to give more detailed info on bone health, it would be helpful for anyone to read them. Even the type exercise you do will affect your bone mass.

Bones are like their own organ system. They change depending on the environment.

Trust in your ability to recover and stay focused!

[The whit wagon]

1599

Hopefully you become the gigachad

[Hulk Smash]

1599

Hopefully you become the gigachad

Hahaha thanks bro. Lets see how things go.

[Hulk Smash]

Cdsnuts i read that androsterone is considered a prohormone for DHT.

Would drinking a glass of celery juice daily be a good idea then?"

[Hulk Smash]

My chin/jaw line is the best it’s ever been in my entire life currently. Multiple people mention it to me that I haven’t seen in a few years. Looks far better in pictures than it ever did during PFS or prior.

Time is wonderful healer if given the opportunity to do so. Keep the faith man, you’ll get there.

Maxout777 I did some digging and It looks like you went the prohormone route. Are you still taking them? Did you lose any hair from your head?

[Maxout777]

Maxout777 I did some digging and It looks like you went the prohormone route. Are you still taking them? Did you lose any hair from your head?

Hey Hulk, I don’t have any hair loss nor was i prone to it before taking saw palmetto so I don’t know that I’m a fair answer to that question. I don’t still take prohormones though.

[Hulk Smash]

Hey Hulk, I don’t have any hair loss nor was i prone to it before taking saw palmetto so I don’t know that I’m a fair answer to that question. I don’t still take prohormones though.

Im thinking of trying the prohormones in about a month. What brand did you take and how many cycles(bottles) did it take to get the results you wanted?
Its so I can bulk order.

[Cooper]

So you did recover your bone loss? Did your jaw grow back to its pre-pfs state? Are you sure? Is it really possible to reverse this side? Thanks

- - - Updated - - -


You’ve just answered your own question matey, the bone loss recovers when everything is sorted out, ive already shaken my moon face and im rocking a chisled jawline once again.

So did you recover your bone loss?

[Bankai9000]

Yo just btw. I love swolesource!

(And to those who think if I rly had to say this)
yes I had to say it

[Yankees52]

�� @bankaii so glad someone said this. I love swole source too!

[God]

Jerry! Jerry!

[Cooper]

I'm happy to be here and I will be an amazing addition to the community...if not, the mods will ban me. Just like they'll do to anyone who causes drama on this board

[delsolrob]

This thread looks so much happier now

[Cdsnuts]

This thread looks so much happier now

Lol. I would love to know what it looked like originally......Thanks Rob.

[delsolrob]

Lol. I would love to know what it looked like originally......Thanks Rob.

if you really wanna know, you should be able to look at the edit history :)

[Cdsnuts]

if you really wanna know, you should be able to look at the edit history :)

Meh....I'm not sure how to do that, but if I did read it, I would probably end up banning him. He'll get a pass on this seeing as I missed it. His last one.

[Hulk Smash]

Effort is paying off

Bone pain is gone
Bio-mechanics more stable
Hand and wrist strength is recovered
Bone will increase overtime
Steady gains at the gym

I'm 80-85% recovered overall

Keep at it guys!

[Hulk Smash]

I'm steady at 85% recovered

I think my stagnant progress may be due to my fat loss struggle. Too many cheat meals/sodas.
Hopefully I will be disciplined 100% for 2021. I think with losing that fat, my T and DHT should hit their max and I will be at 110%.
Keep at it guys. Move from your city or state if you must to find an open gym. Recovery is priority, then all else will fall into place.

And guys please don't go vegan. Its destructive long-term.

[Cdsnuts]

I'm steady at 85% recovered

I think my stagnant progress may be due to my fat loss struggle. Too many cheat meals/sodas.
Hopefully I will be disciplined 100% for 2021. I think with losing that fat, my T and DHT should hit their max and I will be at 110%.
Keep at it guys. Move from your city or state if you must to find an open gym. Recovery is priority, then all else will fall into place.

And guys please don't go vegan. Its destructive long-term.

Great to hear.

And that's exactly why the Modified Paleo is the diet recommended on TMO

[Gomesgame]

Hi Hulk, could i know what are the remaining 15% u r (not) experiencing? Only fat loss problems? What bout sexually?

[Cdsnuts]

Hi Hulk, could i know what are the remaining 15% u r (not) experiencing? Only fat loss problems? What bout sexually?

Does it really matter? You should focus on the 85% that he is feeling rather then the 15% he's still dealing with. Perception is everything.

[Gomesgame]

Does it really matter? You should focus on the 85% that he is feeling rather then the 15% he's still dealing with. Perception is everything.

Surely, in fact is a dream of me being 85% better. Re-reading my post I might have sounded rude. Sorry

[Cdsnuts]

Surely, in fact is a dream of me being 85% better. Re-reading my post I might have sounded rude. Sorry

I don't think you sounded rude at all and there is nothing for you to apologize for. We as people tend to only focus on what is wrong, and not what is right. Human nature I guess, but that one little change in perception and the way you look at things goes a long way.

[Michael]

Hello hulk did you revocover from the bone loss?

[Cdsnuts]

Hello hulk did you revocover from the bone loss?

Try pming him.

[Hulk Smash]

Hello hulk did you revocover from the bone loss?

I gave some detail on my progress in the other thread...

But here are a few links on how DHT and lean body mass affect cortical bone mass(outer layer of bone, which is where some of us have been affected).

It will likely take a few months to a few years of very consistent routine and discipline to see noticeable outer layer recovery.
I still conclude that it should recover to some degree. Bones seem to be an ever-changing and flexible organ system. Trust the process.

Effects of dihydrotestosterone alone and combined with estrogen on bone mineral density, bone growth, and formation rates in ovariectomized rats - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8853853/)

Cortical Bone and Cancellous Bone | Bone and Spine (https://boneandspine.com/cortical-bone-and-cancellous-bone/)

[Hulk Smash]

"DHT had greater effects on cortical bone(outer layer) and partially mitigated the suppressive effects of estrogen on bone growth and formation in the female skeleton."

[Hulk Smash]

"Cortical bone represents 80% of the skeletal mass and therefore supports most of the mechanical function."

Estrogen seems to have inhibitory effect on cortical/appositional mass.
Must keep E within healthy range consistently.

[Hulk Smash]

Revisited some old threads to confirm one recovery reported bone mass improvement in hands.

[Hulk Smash]

Seems like testosterone functions more on the inside of the bone.

DHT operates more on the outer region of bone. Outer layer makes up near 80% of bone mass according to several sources.

Excess estrogen will interfere with bone metabolism. Has an inhibitory effect on bone formation. Smaller skeletal mass overall.

Therefore lack of DHT and/or excess estrogen will limit skeletal mass.

Also, stress/inflammation will throw off parathyroid to produce more osteoclasts vs osteoblasts, thereby also inhibiting bone mass. Thyroid function also plays a role, from what I remember.

[Outlaw]

Man shoutout to you Hulk, you are Swole's official bone expert.

You say DHT helps, have you ever cycled?

[Hulk Smash]

Seems like testosterone functions more on the inside of the bone.

DHT operates more on the outer region of bone. Outer layer makes up near 80% of bone mass according to several sources.

Excess estrogen will interfere with bone metabolism. Has an inhibitory effect on bone formation. Smaller skeletal mass overall.

Therefore lack of DHT and/or excess estrogen will limit skeletal mass.

Also, stress/inflammation will throw off parathyroid to produce more osteoclasts vs osteoblasts, thereby also inhibiting bone mass. Thyroid function also plays a role, from what I remember.

Testosterone functions mostly on the inside of bone, therefore low T must be tackled or there will be bone fractures and breaks in the long term. Could lead to Osteoporosis.

DHT will have more of an impact on mechanics such as balance and grip ability, also appearance.

*Remember, optimal nutrition thru herbs and other methods is needed to remineralize the bones. Calcium, magnesium, boron, MK4, etc.

[Hulk Smash]

Man shoutout to you Hulk, you are Swole's official bone expert.

You say DHT helps, have you ever cycled?
Haha, thanks man.
I havent cycled yet BUT I will hopefully in the very near future. Balancing a few more things as much as possible, and adding sorghum to my diet first. I will cycle if I have no noticeable changes.

The DHT should definitely rebuild bone mass, as long as parathyroid is functioning properly and Estrogen is at healthy level.

I've read one recovery where moon face was gone, no mention of DHT.

Another recovery where hand size apparently recovered, DHT was involved.

The only thing I anticipate is the need to have a VERY consistent DHT input to get the desired effect. Question is how much DHT will be needed daily to maintain mass?

[Cdsnuts]

Haha, thanks man.
I havent cycled yet BUT I will hopefully in the very near future. Balancing a few more things as much as possible, and adding sorghum to my diet first. I will cycle if I have no noticeable changes.

The DHT should definitely rebuild bone mass, as long as parathyroid is functioning properly and Estrogen is at healthy level.

I've read one recovery where moon face was gone, no mention of DHT.

Another recovery where hand size apparently recovered, DHT was involved.

The only thing I anticipate is the need to have a VERY consistent DHT input to get the desired effect. Question is how much DHT will be needed daily to maintain mass?

CYCLE!

[Hulk Smash]

Cdsnuts
I WILL start cycles asap.
Will DHT drop when I'm off-cycle?
Is it possible to microdose off-cycle?

Or will I develop tolerance or not feel well if I consistently microdose?
I don't want to lose my gains.

[Hulk Smash]

Cdsnuts
I WILL start cycles asap.
Will DHT drop when I'm off-cycle?
Is it possible to microdose off-cycle?

Or will I develop tolerance or not feel well if I consistently microdose?
I don't want to lose my gains.

Decided to not microdose when off PH.
I will consume sorghum instead and continue with the rest of protocol.

[Cdsnuts]

Cdsnuts
I WILL start cycles asap.
Will DHT drop when I'm off-cycle?
Is it possible to microdose off-cycle?

Or will I develop tolerance or not feel well if I consistently microdose?
I don't want to lose my gains.

There really is no point in micro-dosing these compounds. I mean, it's not like we're talking psilocybin. Either cycle, or don't, those are your best options.

[Hulk Smash]

Link for how peptides can regenerate the skull. This may also help in overall skull size recovery.

Peptide drugs accelerate BMP-2-induced calvarial bone regeneration and stimulate osteoblast differentiation through mTORC1 signaling - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27345003/#:~:text=through%20mTORC1%20signaling-,Peptide%20drugs%20accelerate%20BMP%2D2%2Dinduced% 20calvarial%20bone%20regeneration%20and,Bioessays) .