Damn...Getting Close with a Lifetime to Optimize

[Damn]

Hi all,

I joined the forum at the beginning of this year and have chimed in a handful of times here and there, although, I never officially introduced myself. So, here I am...Damn

Before I get into the gory details, I would like to start by saying that, on protocol, I am currently at around 85-90% of my overall pre-Fin baseline (and actually above 100% in some areas due to all of the positive life changes I've made). This estimate is based on the fact that almost all of my symptoms are gone/nearly gone almost all of the time (I will get into more details on this later). It objectively takes into consideration age related factors (I am now 51), and being honest with myself re: my ability to recall with exact precision exactly how I looked or felt a year and a half ago (I was just not that intimately familiar with things like the texture of my nut sack back then :)).

So, with that, here’s my story. I took Fin for 10 days in July of 2016 and then quit due to overwhelming fatigue & sleepiness. A couple days after quitting, my nuts started to ache fiercely and my left tit got a tad droopy. I went to my GP who had originally prescribed (she told me it was in my head) and a urologist (she told me it was just a transient issue that would clear up in a week or two). Well, you know the punchline…within a week, I was completely in the shit.

Symptoms (in no particular order) included:
• Aching & atrophying nuts
• Sweaty, cellophane skinned, constantly expanding & contracting scrotum (left testicle was actually laying sideways in the sack…you can’t make this shit up!)
• Swollen, saggy and painful tits
• Lost over 15 pounds of mostly lean mass (from an already thin 145 pounds to a skeletal sub-130)
• Extreme thinning specifically in face, forearms, wrists & thighs
• Bloating around hips & abdomen
• Dry and thinning skin
• No oil on face or forehead
• No sweat or body odor (except for a pencil eraser sized spot in my right pit that smelled funky as hell)
• Dry and super wiry hair (preferred my thinning hair to my new Brillo pad)
• Knee & wrist pain and cracking
• Low body temp (low 97s) and low pulse (upper 40s at rest)
• Reduced visual acuity (not so much blurry, but muted like an iPhone photo filter)
• Dry, tired & bloodshot eyes
• Dry mouth (especially at night)
• Transient rash over large parts of abdomen
• Vacillation between extreme anxiety and inability to give a shit about anything
• Difficulty with memory, concentrating & critical thinking (challenging as I regularly consult to a number of Fortune 500 CXOs)
• Challenged to find words when speaking (a big change for me as I previously performed improv at Second City)
• Physical clumsiness (kept dropping, banging into and knocking things over)
• Able to fall asleep OK but would wake up multiple times a night with heart racing and difficulty falling back asleep
• No dreams
• Extreme muscle fatigue (body felt like when you have the flu)
• Overwhelming sleepiness throughout the day
• Regularly numb lower arms and hands, arms falling asleep at night even without lying on them (anyone else have this? It is one thing that still bothers me fairly regularly)
• Sore jaw & teeth (had to quit Invisalign treatment a month before I was finished as teeth literally became wiggly)
• Frequent, immediate need to piss
• Pain in lower abdomen (prostate?)
• Patchy loss of and slowing growth of facial hair
• Complete rubber dick which (thank God) transitioned over a couple weeks to just a loss of sensation (to varying degrees) and difficulty achieving & maintaining an erection without constant stimulation & focus
• Potato in a sock dick when flaccid (skin was also very thin, soft and tacky feeling…felt more like a synthetic material than skin)
• No nocturnal erections/morning wood
• No precum, watery & lumpy ejaculate
• Interesting note: Besides the first couple weeks while I was shitting myself over all of this, I never really had significant libido issues (I've always been a horny mofo :))

As the symptoms stacked up, I started doing my research and like most of you, I stumbled across PH. Thankfully, without spending too much time getting sucked into that cesspool of despair, good fortune led me to a post from a guy in Italy who had fully recovered and I was able to have a couple conversations with him. That was exactly what I needed to truly believe that I could & would recover from this (I believe this to be the most critical factor in my recovery journey and why I feel this site here is so damn important). Between his advice and another great website I found (no longer exists…I believe the guy’s name was Josh Abrhams), I began to focus on healing my adrenals, thyroid & gut. I built a diet, supplement & lifestyle (e.g. sleep, stress management, avoiding xenoestrogens, exercise, avoiding PH like the fucking plague and just enjoying life) plan around these three things. I did not try to solve for specific PFS symptoms. My guiding principal was the firm belief that my body wanted to & was capable of healing itself and bringing itself back to homeostasis…all I could do was put it in the best possible position do so. I knew trying to manage to individual symptoms, hormone levels, etc. would be an exercise in futility. I now had my plan and committed to stick to it religiously.

As an aside…during all this, a friend got me into see the top endocrinologist at one of the country’s leading university research hospitals in Chicago (worse than worthless). Had T of 177 (250-1100), Free T of 23 (35-155), LH of 0.8 (1.2-8.6), DHT of 17 (16-79) and E2 of 11.7 (23.8-52.2). He told me I shouldn’t worry about the low T because it was “barely below normal”…WTF?. He also literally laughed when I told him I was completely normal a couple weeks earlier and that I believed it was Fin that had caused this. This just reinforced early that this one was gonna be all up to me (with, of course, the invaluable information & insights from many of those that were here before me).

Things were pretty tough through the end of 2016, but I stuck to the plan. Over the course of 2017, I would have a couple of months progressing towards recovery and then, like Groundhog Day, the shadow of achy nuts would reappear and I’d have six more weeks of winter :). It was a 2 month forward, 1 month back cycle…sound familiar? During the fall of 2017 I had a pretty bad crash, but picked myself up by the bootstraps and, you guessed it, stuck with the plan. I did tinker a bit here and there with my diet, supplements, lifestyle, etc. over the year to fine tune for my body’s specific needs. I worked with a natural nutritionist who helped me understand how to use food (types, frequencies, ratios, etc.) to help support cellular health, functioning and energy production to establish an overall ecosystem for recovery. During this time, I kept a journal which really helped me to objectively understand the effect of these changes, identify positive & negative triggers, etc. I was careful, however, not to be too reactive to every little symptom change, but to really listen to what my body was telling me overall and try to meet its needs at a macro level as it dealt with the details. All while sticking to the plan.

Towards the end of 2017, my recovery/downswing cycle was getting much more stable and I knew without a doubt that I would be back to my old self soon. The issue now was I could no longer be satisfied with getting back to the status quo of my life before Fin. All the research I had done, all the healthy living, all the discipline I learned, all the positive results made we want more. I decided to see what I could do to push myself not only over the hump, but beyond. So, I went out on the interwebs to see what I could find. Good fortune struck again and I happened across TMO ("optimization" was the perfect word for what I was looking for) where I found what I believe to be a few of the missing links in my evolution. I added heavy lifting & HIIT, a broader herb rotation (was already taking a number of these) and those cold fucking showers (I have to admit I have developed quite an addiction to those :)) to my plan…and stuck to it.

So here I am, four months later. As I mentioned earlier, I can honestly say I am at 85-90% of my pre-Fin baseline (this is on protocol…I have no idea if this would be the case off it or not, but I have no reason to go off so I don’t give a fuck, pvdl). This means, even when I trough, I am never below 85-90% on any one thing. Every couple weeks, I seem to have a mild hormonal imbalance that lasts a day or so. This usually consists of some breast puffiness, some minor fatigue and some flaccid penis shapeshifting (and occasionally some testicle pain which no longer freaks me out like it used to). I have actually correlated these occurrences to stress and find I am definitely more sensitive to it right now. In some ways, I see this as a positive because it keeps me acutely aware of stress and how to manage it which should end up adding years to my life in the long run. Other than that, all of my other symptoms are gone or at least 90% recovered. And in case you young lads were concerned about me, I have absolutely no problems pounding it out with my beautiful, and much younger, girlfriend on pretty much a daily basis ;).

But let’s get back to “optimization” and those areas where I am above 100% of my pre-Fin self. I am honestly in my best shape since my high school wrestling days. I love lifting hard so much I get bummed on off days (I’m actually glad I waited a while to start lifting because I am so into it I think I would have overdone it too early when my body wasn’t ready yet). My self-confidence is through the roof and I have more mental & physical discipline & toughness than I have ever had (trust me, this turns on the ladies far more than a head of hair ever will). I have also become a much more patient & caring person with my family, friends & people I don’t even know. I have my priorities in order and frankly don’t give a shit about all the petty stuff that used to get my panties in a bunch. As ridiculous as it may sound, I think this may be the best thing that ever happened to me in some ways and I thank God that I can pass these lessons along to my son. I know I may have made it sound like this was easy and I breezed through it, but rest assured, I struggled as much as anyone else with fear, anger, self-pity, self-doubt, etc.. I just knew, in the end, I had no other choice for me, for my son & for my girlfriend (I also thank them for their amazing support through all of this).

I hope to continue my recovery & optimization journey here and continue to learn from all of you who have had your own successes (and setbacks) while improving yourselves. I hope I can contribute something back, as well, and am wide open to questions any of you may have.

One last thing…ironically, my hair is coming back. The woman who cuts my hair has even mentioned it the last couple haircuts…go fucking figure. I may shave it anyway…just because :).

[basementdweller]

Your story sounds more like my own then any others I've read, specifically the initial muscle loss, weakness/numbness. Did you find that it worsened after eating?

I thought I was over this problem, I've been physically strong for months now, and only minor gurgles in my bowel but I'm having a bad downswing and the weakness/fatigue has come back, also pounding heart that wakes me up every two hours.

[Damn]

Your story sounds more like my own then any others I've read, specifically the initial muscle loss, weakness/numbness. Did you find that it worsened after eating?

I thought I was over this problem, I've been physically strong for months now, and only minor gurgles in my bowel but I'm having a bad downswing and the weakness/fatigue has come back, also pounding heart that wakes me up every two hours.

Hey BD, A couple thoughts for what it’s worth.

First, downswings (although they suck) seem to be par for the course. If you are sticking to the protocol, I would say they are typically nothing to get too worked up about. That said, I know mental/emotional stress was a key trigger for a number of my downswings. If eating is one of yours, It could be due to an inflammatory response in the gut. I have not read your previous posts so not sure what your diet looks like (there are a number of foods, even in the paleo diet that can be problematic for certain people) or what you have done/are doing to address gut issues (if you’re on this forum, I'm guessing you had/have them :), so guessing this may be a great place to start. This inflammation (read stress), along with all the other mental, emotional & physical stressors (guessing you have a few of these too), can result in elevated cortisol levels and disruption of the cortisol circadian rhythm resulting in hormonal imbalances and sleep issues. These issues are then further exacerbated due to our already FUBAR'd systems. There are a number of protocol steps on TMO that address these areas and a lot of great advice in posts from other members, but I'm also glad to discuss specific thoughts on diet and healing the gut based on my own experiences if you're interested. These are the foundational things we must all take care of in order to provide our bodies the best environment to heal themselves. You may already be on top of all this and it's just taking some time (the gut does not heal overnight). If that's the case, just keep with it...as CD says, it's about persistence & consistency.

[basementdweller]

Hey BD, A couple thoughts for what it’s worth.

First, downswings (although they suck) seem to be par for the course. If you are sticking to the protocol, I would say they are typically nothing to get too worked up about. That said, I know mental/emotional stress was a key trigger for a number of my downswings. If eating is one of yours, It could be due to an inflammatory response in the gut. I have not read your previous posts so not sure what your diet looks like (there are a number of foods, even in the paleo diet that can be problematic for certain people) or what you have done/are doing to address gut issues (if you’re on this forum, I'm guessing you had/have them :), so guessing this may be a great place to start. This inflammation (read stress), along with all the other mental, emotional & physical stressors (guessing you have a few of these too), can result in elevated cortisol levels and disruption of the cortisol circadian rhythm resulting in hormonal imbalances and sleep issues. These issues are then further exacerbated due to our already FUBAR'd systems. There are a number of protocol steps on TMO that address these areas and a lot of great advice in posts from other members, but I'm also glad to discuss specific thoughts on diet and healing the gut based on my own experiences if you're interested. These are the foundational things we must all take care of in order to provide our bodies the best environment to heal themselves. You may already be on top of all this and it's just taking some time (the gut does not heal overnight). If that's the case, just keep with it...as CD says, it's about persistence & consistency.

Thanks for the response. I think creatine may have triggered it this time but can never be sure. And I was so happy that creatine hcl wasn't causing gut problems, fuck.

I eliminated most red meat, fruit and honey. Red meat and fructose are very problematic for me
I avoid gluten and most sugar as per
I have added probiotics in supplement and food form, I take digestive enzymes with larger meals and just started taking glutamine as well


My typical diet is:

am: poached eggs, non-gluten toast, butter, orange juice

snack: protein shake, spirulina, banana

lunch: fish, vegetables, rice/potato/sorghum, sauerkraut

dinner: chicken or fish, potatoes, salad

snack: kefir, yoghurt, oats, herbal tea


my cortisol was tested high back when I was in a constant state of panic, but I am generally calmer now. The protocol and my own adjustments are paying off but I've had a hell of a downturn recently. Congrats on your progress, btw

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks for the response. I think creatine may have triggered it this time but can never be sure. And I was so happy that creatine hcl wasn't causing gut problems, fuck.

I eliminated most red meat, fruit and honey. Red meat and fructose are very problematic for me
I avoid gluten and most sugar as per
I have added probiotics in supplement and food form, I take digestive enzymes with larger meals and just started taking glutamine as well


My typical diet is:

am: poached eggs, non-gluten toast, butter, orange juice

snack: protein shake, spirulina, banana

lunch: fish, vegetables, rice/potato/sorghum, sauerkraut

dinner: chicken or fish, potatoes, salad

snack: kefir, yoghurt, oats, herbal tea


my cortisol was tested high back when I was in a constant state of panic, but I am generally calmer now. The protocol and my own adjustments are paying off but I've had a hell of a downturn recently. Congrats on your progress, btw

Just looking at your diet, I can see something right away that could be problematic for someone with a PFS gut. You're including too many carbs with your meals imo. Try NOT having carbs during the day and only eating them with your dinner meal. You should also try taking a couple days off of them alltogether before just having with your dinner meal.

When I say carbs, I mean complex carbs, not the fruit.

[Damn]

Thanks for the response. I think creatine may have triggered it this time but can never be sure. And I was so happy that creatine hcl wasn't causing gut problems, fuck.

I eliminated most red meat, fruit and honey. Red meat and fructose are very problematic for me
I avoid gluten and most sugar as per
I have added probiotics in supplement and food form, I take digestive enzymes with larger meals and just started taking glutamine as well


My typical diet is:

am: poached eggs, non-gluten toast, butter, orange juice

snack: protein shake, spirulina, banana

lunch: fish, vegetables, rice/potato/sorghum, sauerkraut

dinner: chicken or fish, potatoes, salad

snack: kefir, yoghurt, oats, herbal tea


my cortisol was tested high back when I was in a constant state of panic, but I am generally calmer now. The protocol and my own adjustments are paying off but I've had a hell of a downturn recently. Congrats on your progress, btw


Thanks BD. I have never taken creatine, so I have no insight there. Regarding your downtown, I don't think periodic downturns (especially early in your recovery) necessarily mean you're doing anything wrong. Everyday things our “normal” bodies used to take in stride can affect us in dramatic ways. Making major changes to your plan whenever this happens can just keep throwing it off even more...again with the persistence & consistency. That said, evaluation and active, paced management of your plan along the way is a good idea. Find what works for your body and realize that it’s needs will change as you progress towards recovery. You understand your body & what it is telling you better than anyone…trust your gut (no pun intended :).

Regarding your diet & gut health plan…in general, it looks pretty good to me (you have obviously done your homework here), but a few thoughts based on my experiences:

Diet:

Some general diet rules that work for me are: 1) eat within an hour of waking up, 2) eat at least 30 minutes before I drink coffee (I waited about a year before I started drinking it again due to adrenal issues)...when it kicks in I want some fuel in the tank to burn, 3) eat every 2-3 hours, 4) eat some protein, fat (I prefer saturated e.g. pastured meats, egg yolks, coconut oil, etc.) & carbs (I prefer tropical fruits or well cooked root vegetables) at every meal/snack. Among other benefits, these rules all help to ensure you maintain healthy blood sugar levels which (without getting into the physiology of it all here) is critical for adrenal, thyroid, gut, brain and overall health. Actually, not a fan of intermittent fasting during recovery for this reason. I think it has great benefits when healthy/optimizing, but I believe it can be too straining on the body at this point.

I was extremely cautious of potentially inflammatory foods so I eliminated all grains, egg whites (eat tons of pastured egg yolks) and cow dairy (eat pastured goat kefir, goat feta & goat whey protein) and nuts from my "paleo" diet. Many people are fine with all of these, but I did not want to take the chance.

Also, I know it’s terribly expensive, but I cannot over emphasize the importance of using pastured, grass fed & wild caught protein sources and organic fruits and root vegetables. The difference in nutrients and impact on the gut, liver, etc. are huge

Gut health:

So, the probiotics, enzymes w/s.boulardii (I take with every meal), l-glutamine (I did 4 tsp throughout the day for about a week and then tapered to 1 tsp a day…usually in a protein shake after working out) are all great. In addition, I also do beef gelatin (Great Lakes collagen hydrolysate mixed in with my goat kefir), homemade bone broth (I use grass fed bones) and Pau D'Arco tea (tastes a bit like wet cardboard so I add some lemon & fresh ginger).

I also make sure my fruits are all ripe and that my root vegetables are well cooked to ease digestion.


Again, this is all based on what I found worked for me...everybody is unique and requires their own personal tweaks to the recipe.

Probably some things I am forgetting, but hope this may help. Keep up what you're doing and you’ll be out of that basement soon.

[jacknap]

Just looking at your diet, I can see something right away that could be problematic for someone with a PFS gut. You're including too many carbs with your meals imo. Try NOT having carbs during the day and only eating them with your dinner meal. You should also try taking a couple days off of them alltogether before just having with your dinner meal.

When I say carbs, I mean complex carbs, not the fruit.

I thought the same thing. you ever try paleo or keto for like 100% of the time + carb backloading like cd recommends? that would likely starve off most of your bad gut bacteria I'd wager...

[Cdsnuts]

I thought the same thing. you ever try paleo or keto for like 100% of the time + carb backloading like cd recommends? that would likely starve off most of your bad gut bacteria I'd wager...Exactly......

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[basementdweller]

@damn, ya when I drink coffee it has to be with food, I've learned that. Regarding the bone broth, I drank it early post crash but it's so bloody expensive and I don't really have the space to make my own. I do take about 15 grams of glycine every night though which gives some of the same benefits.

@cd, jacknap
I have problems with low carb diets, I went pretty much paleo with backloading at first and struggled to keep weight on. When I went full paleo years ago for CFS, my liver enzymes tested high and I had shortness of breath, but that was a little more extreme. Dropping the morning carbs is definitely do-able, and maybe I will take just a little white rice with my lunch on training days and skip it on rest days. My OATS test didn't really show anything (I don't think) for bacterial imbalance.

sorry to hijack this thread btw, damn

[jacknap]

@damn, ya when I drink coffee it has to be with food, I've learned that. Regarding the bone broth, I drank it early post crash but it's so bloody expensive and I don't really have the space to make my own. I do take about 15 grams of glycine every night though which gives some of the same benefits.

@cd, jacknap
I have problems with low carb diets, I went pretty much paleo with backloading at first and struggled to keep weight on. When I went full paleo years ago for CFS, my liver enzymes tested high and I had shortness of breath, but that was a little more extreme. Dropping the morning carbs is definitely do-able, and maybe I will take just a little white rice with my lunch on training days and skip it on rest days. My OATS test didn't really show anything (I don't think) for bacterial imbalance.

sorry to hijack this thread btw, damn

post on your own thread and we'll take it from there? try making your coffee bulletproof style? eg) add grass fed butter, collagen, cocoa, mct oil and that should sustain u through the day...

you're probably a fast oxidizer like I am too we both got that lean body naturally. tubzy is that too so we burn through food like crazy

[Damn]

sorry to hijack this thread btw, damn

No worries BD...appears no one found my story very interesting anyway :) Hope you find the solution that works best for you. BTW...totally understand that bone broth is mucho dinero and a pain in the ass to make. The gelatin route is a good alternative & far less expensive.

[DrivenToRecover]

No worries BD...appears no one found my story very interesting anyway :) Hope you find the solution that works best for you. BTW..eape.totally understand that bone broth is mucho dinero and a pain in the ass to make. The gelatin route is a good alternative & far less expensive.

For the cheapest bone broth I recommend finding a slaughterhouse nearby. I've gotten grass-fed bones for as cheap as $1 per pound! Buy a deep freezer and buy them in bulk if you find a good deal.

I use an instant pot to simmer my broth and I recommend adding the gelatin powder into it beforehand to make it most easily digestible.

[jacknap]

For the cheapest bone broth I recommend finding a slaughterhouse nearby. I've gotten grass-fed bones for as cheap as $1 per pound! Buy a deep freezer and buy them in bulk if you find a good deal.

I use an instant pot to simmer my broth and I recommend adding the gelatin powder into it beforehand to make it most easily digestible.


good idea. one thing I do is any bones that are in the meat I use for dinner I just add to my nighttime tea. sorta like a makeshift tea/bonebroth.

[Cdsnuts]

good idea. one thing I do is any bones that are in the meat I use for dinner I just add to my nighttime tea. sorta like a makeshift tea/bonebroth.

Boy...your parents must really think you've gone off the deep end....lol

[jacknap]

Boy...your parents must really think you've gone off the deep end....lol

lol i was a weirdo constantly experimenting before pfs tho so this ain't nothing new to them haha

[Cdsnuts]

lol i was a weirdo constantly experimenting before pfs tho so this ain't nothing new to them haha

Yeah....it seems that's what got us both into trouble

[Moonman]

So you never did the andro/prohormones cycles with PCT?

[Damn]

So you never did the andro/prohormones cycles with PCT?

No...not so far. I have only been lifting heavy and on the broader herb rotation for a few months...will evaluate in another few.

[Cdsnuts]

No...not so far. I have only been lifting heavy and on the broader herb rotation for a few months...will evaluate in another few.

If you're been following the protocol for a few months, you can probably safely cycle.

[Damn]

Symptom free...six weeks and counting.

[basementdweller]

nice! how about the muscle loss? has any of it come back?

[Cdsnuts]

Symptom free...six weeks and counting.

You're going to crush it. If you're symptom free already, just wait and see how you're going to feel in another six months. Just wait. Don't do what some guys do and stop everything. You'll be fine, but that's not the point of this. The point is COMPLETE optimization.

Congrats.

When the time comes and you're completely sure, please post in the recovery section.

Thank you!

[Who Dat]

Congrats Damn! I just read your initial post in the thread. Your story sounds so much like mine. Finasteride for a few weeks and then complete physical, mental, emotional and sexual devastation. It is so encouraging to hear the similarities and know that you were able to recover. You mention your plan. Was it the same as the protocol? Is there anything else or different you recommend?

[Damn]

nice! how about the muscle loss? has any of it come back?

Thanks BD. In regards to regaining muscle...Thought a few picture's would be worth a thousand words

1551 A couple months after my crash (sorry about the low slung pants...After losing so much mass in my ass & thighs, I couldn't keep them up :)).

1552 1553 About a week ago.

[Damn]

You're going to crush it. If you're symptom free already, just wait and see how you're going to feel in another six months. Just wait. Don't do what some guys do and stop everything. You'll be fine, but that's not the point of this. The point is COMPLETE optimization.

Congrats.

When the time comes and you're completely sure, please post in the recovery section.

Thank you!

Thanks CD. I have no intention of giving any of this up. I have worked far too hard and seen way too many life improvements over the last year and a half to give up now...This is just the beginning of a long journey. Will absolutely post in the recovery section when the time is right.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks CD. I have no intention of giving any of this up. I have worked far too hard and seen way too many life improvements over the last year and a half to give up now...This is just the beginning of a long journey. Will absolutely post in the recovery section when the time is right.

Good for you.

It just keeps getting better. You'll be surprised.

[Damn]

Congrats Damn! I just read your initial post in the thread. Your story sounds so much like mine. Finasteride for a few weeks and then complete physical, mental, emotional and sexual devastation. It is so encouraging to hear the similarities and know that you were able to recover. You mention your plan. Was it the same as the protocol? Is there anything else or different you recommend?

Thanks Who Dat! Apologies for the delayed response…I wanted to be able to take the time to answer your question properly. But first, It's interesting…I have received quite a few PMs from guys with very similar experiences after taking Fin for a very short period of time (from one or two days to three or four weeks) and having really horrific crashes. I have a hypothesis on this I might run by a few of you at some point. Without getting into the details here, I suspect the physiological pathway to PFS in these cases is slightly different from the others. That said, I believe (even more so, actually) that the fundamental approach to recovery is the same...heal the body at a holistic level and trust it to sort out the details and find homeostasis. Therefore, it is no coincidence that my plan turned out to be very similar to the protocol on TMO which, for the most part, is exactly that. If you are following that then no worries...you are on the right path.

To answer your question, though, I will attempt to highlight the differences in the plan I followed (mostly additional items, but a few things I never thought of and/or decided against). I will also call out those things I added to my plan when I found TMO around the end of 2017, as well as, things I would do differently if I had to do this all over again (almost just shit myself thinking about that possibility :)).

Overall:

As I mentioned in my initial post in this thread, my plan was built around optimizing my overall health (with a focus on healing my gut, adrenals & thyroid) in order to provide the optimal environment for my body to heal itself and bring itself back to homeostasis. I know I have already said this in many posts, however, I think it bears repeating…I firmly believe trying to manage & adjust to specific symptoms and hormone levels is an exercise in futility and is frankly counter-productive to recovery, as it just continues to confuse your body and throw it off course as it tries to self-correct. I have attached an illustration from Dr. Rhonda Patrick which documents the (known) bio-chemical pathways in the human body. Take a look at this and tell me how any mortal being could ever figure out how to properly balance any one specific thing without causing a cascade of unintended reactions (you’d have a better chance of repairing the circuitry of an iPhone in the pitch dark with a hammer and a pipe wrench). This is the same reason why pharmaceuticals like Fin can be so harmful because you take them to invoke a specific action, but that usually triggers multiple unforeseen, unintended, and often harmful reactions. But I digress…back to the question.

1555

Key differences between the plan I followed and the TMO protocol (BTW…many of these are probably not “differences”, but may just not be explicitly called out in the TMO protocol).

Lifestyle:

• Believed I was going to fully recover. If you can’t honestly do this…stop here
• Did not isolate. This is very easy to do as you all know…Don’t! Get out and do shit. Spend time with your family. Spend time with your friends. Doesn’t matter if they “don’t understand” you. Talk about something else…you didn’t talk about PFS before you had it. Find out how they are doing. Volunteer somewhere and spend time with others who need help more than you do.
• Avoided being a “PFS guy”. Don’t fall into a victim mindset. Develop your plan and fucking forget about PFS. After I developed my plan, I spent over a year away from any PFS related forums and Google searches. I put PFS out of my mind and basically lived my life as a “regular guy” focused on improving his life and his health.
• Didn’t symptom watch. Once I developed my plan, I knew there would be ups & downs, but I did not react to every single one. Shit does not happen overnight. Sometimes the pendulum swings back and forth a few times before it stops in the middle. I only made adjustments if/when I felt I was really trending off the path to recovery. Keep your eyes on your destination not on your feet. Play the long game.
• Didn’t manage to hormones/labs. After my original labs, I have not lab tested since. What’s the point? You’re fooling yourself If you think you can manage to them (point made above). I did not know what they were before I took Fin…I just remember how I felt and know how I felt during and how I feel now.
• Got out in the sun every morning. Even in the Chicago winter I got out in a t-shirt for 15-20 minutes every morning. This is the best time of the day for sun. It helps set your circadian rhythm and reset your cortisol cycle. Go barefoot in the grass if you can.
• Sauna for 20 minutes, 3-4 times a week. Infrared is great if you have access. I paid for it during my original detox, but then just started doing dry sauna at my gym. Best to do after a workout. Hydrate well before & after…Use mineral water or add a bit (not too much) Himalayan salt
• No underwear. Was always a “commando” guy and think this was good for healing. Was difficult at first when everything was rubbery and sweaty and saggy, but believe the sensation of feeling your junk moving and rubbing around helped reestablish some mind-dick connection quickly.
• Edging w/ a partner. Not everything on the list has to be a chore ;). Did not pump although I can understand the reasoning behind it if you do not currently have a willing partner and/or a willing dick.
• No cheating…not once.
• Laughed a lot…especially at myself. That was one thing I was never gonna let Merck steal from me…fuck that!
• Practiced stress awareness & management. Learning how to do this was one of the silver linings out of all of this and will likely add years to my life. Don’t sweat the small shit.
• Took Epsom salt baths. Great for those with poor magnesium absorption.
• Oil pulled every night. Great to help protect teeth...especially if you have dry mouth at night.
• Added cold showers from TMO around the end of 2017. Love these. Turn the water to full cold, turn on some loud music and go in head first. The only thing different from the protocol is I let myself completely (other than hair) air dry afterwards to force my body to warm itself back up.

Diet:
• Went limited paleo avoiding all grains, cow dairy, nuts & egg whites. Focus on nutrient dense, low-inflammatory foods...can’t overstate the importance of wild caught, pastured & organic.
• Ate a shit ton of high nutrition vegetables.
• Ate a balance of proteins, carbs & fats at every meal
• Ate slowly and chewed food very well. Extremely important for digestion & gut health.
• Hydrated well (not before or after meals as interferes with digestion)
• Ate one raw carrot for snack every day. Great for estrogen detox
• Ate a moderate amount of cruciferous veggies every day. Make sure to steam well for digestion & thyroid reasons. Great for controlling aromatization. Can also do white mushrooms, red grapes, etc.
• Homemade bone broth (daily unless I forgot to make). Great for gut, skin, etc.
• Lots of unrefined coconut oil.
• Dessert – Cacoa nibs, shredded raw coconut (and banana sometimes).
• Drank Pau D’arco tea. Add some fresh lemon & ginger to improve the taste (a little bit like wet cardboard). Good for the gut.
• Used detoxing herbs like parsley, cilantro, basil, ginger, garlic, turmeric, etc. Use in recipes…Great for the detox and makes meals much more interesting.
• Also used Burdock root daily. Great for detox. I put in my homemade chicken soup which I make once a week, freeze and eat almost daily

Supplements:
• Nutrient absorption was shit (food moved through me very quickly) so took B Complex, C, E, Calcium, Magnesium & Zinc until improved
• Digestive enzymes w/ S.Boulardii before every meal
• Probiotics
• Took D3 (12,000 iu/day). For some reason, many of us don't convert well.
• Selenium (via 3-4 Brazil nuts/day...only nuts I eat)
• Iodine – transitioned to seaweed
• Boron
• Tyrosine
• Quercetin
• Omega 3 oil on days I did not eat fish
• L-glutamine
• Collagen (mix in w/ goat kefir)
• Goat whey protein
• Ashwaganda, rhodiola
• Added a few additional herbs from TMO list beginning of 2018. Modified the rotation a little. I take pine pollen & ash every day (take a couple days off every couple weeks). I also grouped the remainder into three basic categories: adaptagens, T-booster/vitality, and nootropics. I rotate one (out o 2-3) from each category every day.
• I added coffee after about a year (avoided caffeine until then for adrenal reasons). Calling a supplement as that is what I use it for (even though I love it and actually look forward to waking up just to have it). Dark roasted (tastes best and least caffeine). Around eight ounces in morning with herbs and another 8 ounces before I workout around 3:00. Haven’t poured it up my ass yet, but am considering :).

Exercise:
• I did not start lifting until the end of 2017.
• After my crash, I started walking in the sun every day for 30-60 minutes.
• I then started to do calisthenics and bodyweight exercises (pullups, chin-ups, pushups, sit-ups, squats)
• I then added yoga
• After the first couple months, I also forced myself to stay physically active doing things like home renovations, landscaping, etc. out in the sun.
• I added weight lifting and HIIT around the end of 2017 and quickly progressed towards a pretty intense routine (with amazing results). Would do this as soon as my body (adrenals, etc.) was ready to do. Need to start slowly and listen to body

Other:
My initial detox:
• I did not fast or feast even though a water fast was recommended by a guy I met on PH who had recovered. Was concerned at the time given my thyroid & adrenal issues and my BMI (below 17 after dropping to below 130 pounds).
• Did about 3 months of Liposomal Glutathione
• Did about 6 months of XenoProtX
• Did a one week bone broth fast about 6 months in
• Infrared sauna (almost) daily for first couple months
• Used detox herbs called out above

• No prohormones. I have not ruled out and may consider at some point. I just did not believe they were required for my recovery.

So there you are. Apologies for the long post, but you asked for it . Feel free (anyone) to hit me up with any additional questions.

BTW…guessing from your screen name & location you are a Saints’ fan. My son is a huge Saints' (and especially Brees) fan. Took him to a home game a couple years ago (was pre-Fin so I got to enjoy Bourbon Street :)) and then to the playoff game against the Vikings this January…what a crazy (& fucking painful) game that was :(.

[Master Mal]

So thrilled for you, Damn! You've done a man's job, sir.

If you don't mind me asking, how much time did it take for your sexual symptoms to reverse 100%? I'm right at the end now with that being (aside from some sleep issues) the last symptom left. It's super annoying and I'm staying the course, but I was just curious how that last bit went for you.

Congrats again!

[Cdsnuts]

I just noticed the pictures as when I first saw the post, it was on my phone, and for some reason the pics didn't come up. Well. Done. The difference in muscle mass is phenomenal.

Really, great job Brother.

I know I sound like a broken record when it comes to this, but that's because I've seen guys stop when they should've kept going, way too often. IMO, the best parts don't come until you're recovered and you go past your "normal" baseline.

I know you'll stay with it just based on the tone of your posts. You will see just how good a man can feel on a daily basis. I mentioned this in another thread recently, but I just feel beyond great on a day to day basis. Just existing is pleasurable for me. You'll see what I mean as you continue to grow, mentally and physically. It becomes addicting.

Again, great job man.

Oh...in regards to the biochemical pathway chart you posted.....THIS is exactly why I tell guys that you need to come at this with a holistic approach. There is no possible way that you can micromanage all of the things that our bodies are designed to do with their infinite intelligence. No way. I liken it to playing a game of wack-a-mole. You take care of something over here, and something over there pops up. You take care of that thing, and then another thing pops up. It's an ENDLESS game that you WILL NOT win.

Step out of your own way, give you body and mind what it needs to do it's best work and stay consistent. The rest will certainly follow.

[Who Dat]

Damn, Thanks for the response. A lot of great advice here. Going to add a number of these to my routine. "Commando" LOL!, but a great idea. Anyone who stumbled across this forum without knowing anything about PFS would think we were some kind of crazy cult.

Would be very interested in your theory on our type of PFS. Will DM you if you don't mind.

And big Saint's fan, yes. Relocated here to help rebuild after Katrina and impossible not to get sucked in. Looks like we should have two more runs for it with Brees.

[Damn]

So thrilled for you, Damn! You've done a man's job, sir.

If you don't mind me asking, how much time did it take for your sexual symptoms to reverse 100%? I'm right at the end now with that being (aside from some sleep issues) the last symptom left. It's super annoying and I'm staying the course, but I was just curious how that last bit went for you.

Congrats again!

Thanks Mal, Glad to hear you are getting close as well. Regarding sexual sides: There were definitely wide variations depending on which ones (libido, erection quality, sensitivity, shape/size, ejaculate, etc.), but in general, they were pretty shit at first, after 6 months were marginal with plenty of downswings, after a year were much better with fewer/shorter downswings, after 18 months were close to normal and last couple months (so around months 20-22) have been fantastic (including waking up most nights and EVERY morning with wood...batter up! ;))

[Brazilianguy]

Thanks Mal, Glad to hear you are getting close as well. Regarding sexual sides: There were definitely wide variations depending on which ones (libido, erection quality, sensitivity, shape/size, ejaculate, etc.), but in general, they were pretty shit at first, after 6 months were marginal with plenty of downswings, after a year were much better with fewer/shorter downswings, after 18 months were close to normal and last couple months (so around months 20-22) have been fantastic (including waking up most nights and EVERY morning with wood...batter up! ;))

Hey man I didn’t see you writing anything about tribulus, tongkat and maca, were they in your herb rotation or just herbs for your gut?

[Damn]

Hey man I didn’t see you writing anything about tribulus, tongkat and maca, were they in your herb rotation or just herbs for your gut?

I have used tongkat in my T-booster/vitality rotation and raw black maca in my adaptogen rotation for the last 4-5 months. I have not used tribulus.

[Brazilianguy]

I have used tongkat in my T-booster/vitality rotation and raw black maca in my adaptogen rotation for the last 4-5 months. I have not used tribulus.

Cool. I really think T-boosters are key to recover as long as we make our body ready to them.

[Cdsnuts]

Cool. I really think T-boosters are key to recover as long as we make our body ready to them.

They are not the key. They are just an important piece to the overall puzzle, for sure.

[Damn]

Symptom free...six weeks and counting.

Over three months now...Three more and I'm officially raising the flag on this bitch! :)

[Pageidol]

Nice one dude

[jacknap]

Over three months now...Three more and I'm officially raising the flag on this bitch! :)

nioce.

[Cdsnuts]

Over three months now...Three more and I'm officially raising the flag on this bitch! :)

Congratulations!

And it is certainly something to be congratulated for. One of the best feelings in the world to be free again, armed with knowledge that will keep you vital and healthy for the rest of your life.

Please be sure to add to the growing number of recovery stories in the recovery section so that we can keep spreading hope and knowledge to the ones that will definitely come after you.

Phenomenal job brother.

Now the fun starts. STAY on the protocol and see what continues to happen. It gets better....and better. Now you get to start moving in fun direction.

[Damn]

RickTheRuler In response to your visitor message (and several other inquires I have received) re: my hypothesis on the cause of PFS in short-term Fin users.

I am a firm believer in Occam’s razor…therefore, my hypothesis is quite simple. Although the symptoms are about as fucked up as you could imagine, I do not believe ours is that complicated of a condition (at least to understand). I believe our bodies have spent years adjusting and compensating to maintain homeostasis across our endocrine, nervous, digestive, etc. systems due to lifestyle induced imbalances (which I believe, in my case, to be primarily from chronic stress). At status quo, we would have just kept on keepin’ on…But when we threw such a powerful, exogenous chemical into the mix, this delicate balance was jolted so suddenly & violently that our bodies could not effectively compensate and things came crashing down (potentially even partly in an act of self-preservation). I do not believe there are any permanent, systemic changes caused from this that require us to do anything extraordinary. The body is amazing and will do whatever it takes first to survive and ultimately to reestablish homeostasis. That is why I believe we just need to give it a healthy environment & the time it needs and then just stay the fuck out of its way (while it painstakingly rebalances thousands of hormones, chemicals, bacterium, etc. all while keeping us alive & functioning). I really think it's that "simple" :).

You’re absolutely correct, my approach (and similarly, the TMO protocol) was not "complicated" or “cutting edge”. It was well researched and well thought out, but it was quite simple. The only hard part is having the self-discipline to live by it day after day through downswings and plateaus and not give up or second guess yourself.

[Damn]

Hey guys. Thought I would drop by for a check-in. It’s fucking awesome to see some new recoveries on the scoreboard since I last visited! The rest of you can do it too. Just live a clean life and, most importantly, get the fuck out of your own heads. You will get there. I’ve not only been symptom free for over a year now, but life is honestly loads better than it was before Fin. Keep the faith brothers. Enjoy the holidays with your friends and families.

[alphacfi]

Needed this one today boss thank you! Youre an inspiration to all of us still sufferers. Happy Holidays!

[Turnover25]

Hey guys. Thought I would drop by for a check-in. It’s fucking awesome to see some new recoveries on the scoreboard since I last visited! The rest of you can do it too. Just live a clean life and, most importantly, get the fuck out of your own heads. You will get there. I’ve not only been symptom free for over a year now, but life is honestly loads better than it was before Fin. Keep the faith brothers. Enjoy the holidays with your friends and families.

Thanks for stopping by man. Please feel free to check in every now and then, the info and wisdom from all of you veterans who’ve recovered is priceless.

[joelander]

awesome to see the recoveries! inspiration and so important for people to come back and post of their triumph!........just reading this post gave me goosebumps...which means I am 'feeling' so much more than I was able to feel just a couple months ago! dam these cold ass showers are good :)

[Cdsnuts]

Hey guys. Thought I would drop by for a check-in. It’s fucking awesome to see some new recoveries on the scoreboard since I last visited! The rest of you can do it too. Just live a clean life and, most importantly, get the fuck out of your own heads. You will get there. I’ve not only been symptom free for over a year now, but life is honestly loads better than it was before Fin. Keep the faith brothers. Enjoy the holidays with your friends and families.

Thanks Damn. These check-ins from former sufferers do wonders for the guys currently in the shit. Much appreciation for the words of encouragement.