I love my son and need help

[Kate]

I live in South America and I’m the mom of a 19-year-old that is going through an awful time starting from when he started taking finisteride 1 year and ½ ago due to hair loss which he took until a month ago when he stopped taking it. During the time while he was taking it, he was hospitalized twice with psychotic episodes and was given far too many meds and we later realized it was due to the finisteride and he had no diagnosed mental problems.

It has truly been a rollercoaster of emotions and physical side effects of this damn drug which seems to have drained him of his self being and I am extremally worried pissed off and saddened , he used to enjoy listening to music and reading a lot of books, exercising, riding his bike, working out with weights, generally but at this time he cannot do any of this because when he does, he feels fatigued and is worse. He has a range of symptoms like the following: depression, panic attacks, loss of libido, anhedonia, chronic fatigue, less muscle and less strength, anxiety, mental fog, awaking in the night, suicidal ideations, despair, testicular pain, amongst other.

He did feel better during 3 days where he was with enhanced mental capacities and taking interest in various areas and a little better physically.
He is at this time taking vitamin B6, K, zinc, and magnesium citrate.
Today he had a mini crash of some sorts, he took some tribulus pills and made him worse. The few times he has done exercise, he has felt way worse. On one occation he went to the supermarket on his bike and felt significantly worse afterwards. Why exactly does this happen? Is this some kind of androgen sensitivity in regards of androgenic herbs and exercise? If so, will this change with time?
My question is basically how he can reactivate his 5AR enzymes and to build up his androgen levels and if there is anyone who has recovered whom I can speak to personally?,

I fear that my son is near collapse and I don't trully know how to handle this or trully cheer him up; well more than cheering him up, I want to inspire him with someone who has personally recovered - show him that there's a way out of this hell.

Thanks for reading guys.

[Brazilianguy]

I live in South America and I’m the mom of a 19-year-old that is going through an awful time starting from when he started taking finisteride 1 year and ½ ago due to hair loss which he took until a month ago when he stopped taking it. During the time while he was taking it, he was hospitalized twice with psychotic episodes and was given far too many meds and we later realized it was due to the finisteride and he had no diagnosed mental problems.

It has truly been a rollercoaster of emotions and physical side effects of this damn drug which seems to have drained him of his self being and I am extremally worried pissed off and saddened , he used to enjoy listening to music and reading a lot of books, exercising, riding his bike, working out with weights, generally but at this time he cannot do any of this because when he does, he feels fatigued and is worse. He has a range of symptoms like the following: depression, panic attacks, loss of libido, anhedonia, chronic fatigue, less muscle and less strength, anxiety, mental fog, awaking in the night, suicidal ideations, despair, testicular pain, amongst other.

He did feel better during 3 days where he was with enhanced mental capacities and taking interest in various areas and a little better physically.
He is at this time taking vitamin B6, K, zinc, and magnesium citrate.
Today he had a mini crash of some sorts, he took some tribulus pills and made him worse. The few times he has done exercise, he has felt way worse. On one occation he went to the supermarket on his bike and felt significantly worse afterwards. Why exactly does this happen? Is this some kind of androgen sensitivity in regards of androgenic herbs and exercise? If so, will this change with time?
My question is basically how he can reactivate his 5AR enzymes and to build up his androgen levels and if there is anyone who has recovered whom I can speak to personally?,

I fear that my son is near collapse and I don't trully know how to handle this or trully cheer him up; well more than cheering him up, I want to inspire him with someone who has personally recovered - show him that there's a way out of this hell.

Thanks for reading guys.


I’m not recovered but I think he should start taking antidepressants if the situation is unbearable. If tribulus didn’t work well for him, he should try other brands or other herbs. I don’t know if it’s a good idea taking too many vitamins, I got bad reactions from vitamin D and omega 3. So maybe less is more.

I also think too many exercises can be bad if he has adrenal/cortisol problems. A lot of guys in the early stages has suicidal thoughts and depression, it’s neurotransmitter thing that will subside when he starts to improve, it’s actually the first thing to recover (depression) so he needs to understand that this is beateble and read recoveries to see that it’s possible. That’s what I did when I was at my worst.

[LetsGo]

I’m not recovered but I think he should start taking antidepressants if the situation is unbearable. If tribulus didn’t work well for him, he should try other brands or other herbs. I don’t know if it’s a good idea taking too many vitamins, I got bad reactions from vitamin D and omega 3. So maybe less is more.

I also think too many exercises can be bad if he has adrenal/cortisol problems. A lot of guys in the early stages has suicidal thoughts and depression, it’s neurotransmitter thing that will subside when he starts to improve, it’s actually the first thing to recover (depression) so he needs to understand that this is beateble and read recoveries to see that it’s possible. That’s what I did when I was at my worst.

I wouldn’t be quick to jump on antidepressants. Most of them, especially SSRIs, are known to reduce libido and cause other sexual side effects. They also tend to increase the risk of suicide, and many have “black box” warnings to that effect.

Treat the cause, not the symptom. The program outlined by CDnuts has had a lot of success for many men, however, you have to be dedicated or it won’t work. Most men are too lazy to do it.

Exercise is shown to reduce depression more than antidepressants, without any negative side effects, so I think that that is important to start. Yes, it will be unpleasant to force oneself to exercise when one is depressed, but over time, it helps. Meditating is also very helpful, as is eating healthier.

But overall, I’d just recommend the CDnuts protocol, and do not fall into the trap of trying random medications that random people on other message boards recommend.

[SS7]

I live in South America and I’m the mom of a 19-year-old that is going through an awful time starting from when he started taking finisteride 1 year and ½ ago due to hair loss which he took until a month ago when he stopped taking it. During the time while he was taking it, he was hospitalized twice with psychotic episodes and was given far too many meds and we later realized it was due to the finisteride and he had no diagnosed mental problems.

It has truly been a rollercoaster of emotions and physical side effects of this damn drug which seems to have drained him of his self being and I am extremally worried pissed off and saddened , he used to enjoy listening to music and reading a lot of books, exercising, riding his bike, working out with weights, generally but at this time he cannot do any of this because when he does, he feels fatigued and is worse. He has a range of symptoms like the following: depression, panic attacks, loss of libido, anhedonia, chronic fatigue, less muscle and less strength, anxiety, mental fog, awaking in the night, suicidal ideations, despair, testicular pain, amongst other.

He did feel better during 3 days where he was with enhanced mental capacities and taking interest in various areas and a little better physically.
He is at this time taking vitamin B6, K, zinc, and magnesium citrate.
Today he had a mini crash of some sorts, he took some tribulus pills and made him worse. The few times he has done exercise, he has felt way worse. On one occation he went to the supermarket on his bike and felt significantly worse afterwards. Why exactly does this happen? Is this some kind of androgen sensitivity in regards of androgenic herbs and exercise? If so, will this change with time?
My question is basically how he can reactivate his 5AR enzymes and to build up his androgen levels and if there is anyone who has recovered whom I can speak to personally?,

I fear that my son is near collapse and I don't trully know how to handle this or trully cheer him up; well more than cheering him up, I want to inspire him with someone who has personally recovered - show him that there's a way out of this hell.

Thanks for reading guys.

Hi Kate - firstly very sorry to see you here. First message is recoveries are very possible and your son has MUCH youth on his side! I should probably mention that sometimes people even recover on their own, so don't take anything too extreme to try and fix this. Or even at all if possible.

What we'll recommend here is the protocol on Total Male Optimization (http://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/) along with the herb rotation, pretty much read and do the advice linked there and time/commitment will do the rest.

Do be supportive for your son (which it looks like you are doing of course,) the situation this leaves a man in is terrible, but it does and will get easier. In the difficult times, stick to the routines as far as possible; they'll help after a little time and then the benefits will keep coming and keep coming.

Once he's better he'll be a totally different person. It'll be a life-experience for sure.

Everyone here wishes you all the best, please do stay and don't be afraid to ask us anything at all. DO NOT visit a site called propeciahelp.com. Ever.

[carsot8]

He should get on the CD Nuts protocol listed on this forum and totalmaleoptimization asap. And read the recovery threads in this section. Never under any circumstances take any more finasteride or any other kind of hair loss treatment, they all reduce male hormones and basically chemically castrate a man. And as others have said, don't go on the site propeciahelp, it's just a bunch of negative people complaining and suggesting unscientific methods.


He's definitely not the only one to experience this, there is actually a legal class action against the finasteride manufacturer of people who have had horrible side effects and want justice or action taken.

[Kate]

Here is some of his recent blood results:
Stridol pg/ml 15.5- his results

Percentile 2.5= 28.5
Medium = 36.1
Percentile 97.5= 60.7
_________
Progesterone pg/ml 0.33-his results

Upto 0.15 pg/ml
_________
LH mUI/mL 3.3 - his results

1.7 - 8.6 mUI/mL
_________
FSH mUI/mL 6.4 - his results

1.5 - 12.4 mUI/mL
_________
Prolactin 5.8 - his results

4.04-15.8
________
Total testestorone - ng/dL 402.0

Age 20 - 49 - 249 - 836
Older than 50 - 193 - 740
___________________
SHBG - nmol/L 39.6- his results

Age 20 - 49 - 16.5 - 55.9 nmol/L
Older or equal to 50 - 19.3 - 76.4 nmol/L
____________________
Free Testestorone - nmol/L 6.39
% 45.81- his results

Age 20 - 49 - 8.64 - 29
0lder than 50 - 6.68 - 25.7
____________________
Beta HCG - < 0.1 mUI/mL- his results

Less than 2.5 mUI/mL
_____________________
Cortisol AM - 10.1 - his results

Cortisol AM : 5.0 - 25.0 ug/dL
______________________
DHEA - 334.0 ug/dL- his results

80- 560
______________________
DHT - 183 pg/ml- his results

250-750 pg/ml
_______________________
IGF1 - 303.0 ng/mL

117 - 323 ng/ml
_______________________
TSH - 1.75 uUI/mL - his results

0.4 - 4.0
______________________
VITAMINA B.12 - 990.2 pg/mL

191 - 663
_____________________
Total Vitamin D - 44.7 ng/mL- his results

Sufficient: mayor o igual a 30 ng/mL
Insufficient: entre 20 - 29 ng/mL
Defecit: menor de 20 ng/mL
_________________________
Please let me know your thoughts and if there is anyone who has recovered or deeply improved that I can contact with?
He is trying Deep TMS, is this a good idea to try?
Also, he had a 2-3 day "slight" recovery where his mental symptoms faded in a big manner —he began being interested in things again and could develop complex ideas as he used to.
After he took the tribulus all the progress went away.
His sleep has been really bad lately and this worries me any advise on how to better this?

[Brazilianguy]

Here is some of his recent blood results:
Stridol pg/ml 15.5- his results

Percentile 2.5= 28.5
Medium = 36.1
Percentile 97.5= 60.7
_________
Progesterone pg/ml 0.33-his results

Upto 0.15 pg/ml
_________
LH mUI/mL 3.3 - his results

1.7 - 8.6 mUI/mL
_________
FSH mUI/mL 6.4 - his results

1.5 - 12.4 mUI/mL
_________
Prolactin 5.8 - his results

4.04-15.8
________
Total testestorone - ng/dL 402.0

Age 20 - 49 - 249 - 836
Older than 50 - 193 - 740
___________________
SHBG - nmol/L 39.6- his results

Age 20 - 49 - 16.5 - 55.9 nmol/L
Older or equal to 50 - 19.3 - 76.4 nmol/L
____________________
Free Testestorone - nmol/L 6.39
% 45.81- his results

Age 20 - 49 - 8.64 - 29
0lder than 50 - 6.68 - 25.7
____________________
Please let me know your thoughts and if there is anyone who has recovered or deeply improved that I can contact with?
He is trying Deep TMS, is this a good idea to try?
Also, he had a 2-3 day "slight" recovery where his mental symptoms faded in a big manner —he began being interested in things again and could develop complex ideas as he used to.
After he took the tribulus all the progress went away.
His sleep has been really shitty also lately.

His estradiol is too low, that's the cause of his depression and suicidal thoughts. He needs to see ways of increasing it, the best way to increase is by increasing testosterone. Maybe he could try one thing called triptorelin, but its too strong, so read a lot about it before deciding to take it (it will increase testosterone and estradiol). I think would be a good idea to read about Apr1989 (its a recovered guy from propeciahelp forum) he had low T and low estradiol, he took triptorelin just one shot and his testosterone got stable at a high level. He could also try HCG with a doctor.

Guys won't be covered me up as much. But if he felt worse doing exercises, maybe he should try only other things. Ask him to call me on skype, I talked to him in the past. He needs to increase his estradiol to 22 at least, and it can't be more than 30.

[Durantia37]

His estradiol is too low, that's the cause of his depression and suicidal thoughts. He needs to see ways of increasing it, the best way to increase is by increasing testosterone. Maybe he could try one thing called triptorelin, but its too strong, so read a lot about it before deciding to take it (it will increase testosterone and estradiol). I think would be a good idea to read about Apr1989 (its a recovered guy from propeciahelp forum) he had low T and low estradiol, he took triptorelin just one shot and his testosterone got stable at a high level. He could also try HCG with a doctor.

Guys won't be covered me up as much. But if he felt worse doing exercises, maybe he should try only other things. Ask him to call me on skype, I talked to him in the past. He needs to increase his estradiol to 22 at least, and it can't be more than 30.

I suggest ignoring this post, and everything else this idiot has said.

Your son has the best chance of recovery if he does an extended fast, and follows the CD protocol long term. Dozens of people on this forum would be more than happy to answer questions you have about the protocol.

[jacknap]

Yeah I don't know whatsup with these guys using the forum for social hour and dabbling with protocol.

read everything that cdnuts posted on here. pretty much ignore everyone else except for maxout as well and he'll recover in 6 months to 2 years.

follow what cdnuts did to the letter and he'll be fine. get on it now and faster you'll recover. I've been running at 90% recovered past month so I'm almost done with this chapter of my life because I followed the blue print and didn't sway. some of the people here can be good support but a lot of people will easily dissuade you from staying on the path. Rick was about to drop andro after many people were saying to drop it but I told him to just stay on it unless he's getting very bad signs not just a little discomfort. discomfort is what's needed to get past this and that's why not everyone recovers you need mental strength for this.

durantia good on you for saying this cuz I thought it no offence brazil dude. I hope you know what's best for you but IMO you should power through and just do the cdnuts protocol. You don't need anti-depressants they've helped no one and just make it harder to start on the protocol.

There has been anecdotal evidence the anti-depressant remeron has helped people but my friend who reported that is a bit wishy washy and don't know if I can fully trust how recovered he is. I trust CD and maxout the most when it comes to this thing don't be persuaded by every random user on here including me because i'm not recovered but yeah read everything cdnuts posted that's more then enough info to keep you busy and on it. If you follow it your son will come out a better man and stronger then he was before so don't worry about it, get to work.

another user entropy was 19 when he got pfs as well and was one of the fastest recoveries probably because of his age so ya'll might be lucky ;)

[Brazilianguy]

I suggest ignoring this post, and everything else this idiot has said.

Your son has the best chance of recovery if he does an extended fast, and follows the CD protocol long term. Dozens of people on this forum would be more than happy to answer questions you have about the protocol.

Thanks for calling me an idiot. I think only idiots can recognize others.

Guys, I talked to human couple times, he told me he was feeling suicidal, Fausto told me the same and Fausto is taking ssri and it’s still recovering following the protocol. I think you guys should support more instead of just talking here. It’s not that easy to say follow the protocol and you’re ok. It’s not that simple, if a person has severe adrenal fatigue, this person will end up even worse after a fast or during a paleo diet. With adrenal fatigue some exercises will be worse for adrenals because it will increase cortisol. The rest is great for everybody.

[RickTheRuler]

Straight up off the rip..

Labs mean nothing., they only matter when your 100% cured.. there’s receptor things going on with pfs.. you can have high test but what does it matter if the enzymes that convert it to other things are disrupted.. or the receptors to those other things etc...so much we don’t know.. matter a fact I take all that back.. actually,I don’t know what the hell Is going on in the body.. all I know is that the 5AR enzyme got nuked and the rest is history. There are so many theories, don’t worry about the theories..

, best thing you can do is trust the program and continue living life as best as you can. It gets better as long as he’s diligent.. the body is designed to heal itself naturally, were just giving it what it needs to do it + Time.. a fast then Exercise, supplements, herb rotation, cold showers, Andro cycles (optional) all build up & create the energy your body needs to fix itself..

Once it’s all dialed in it’s pretty easy and it’s routine..

The regimen on TotalMaleOptimization is not only to fix PFS.. it’s basically most health issues that a man have. It takes a bit more time with pfs cause it’s more complicated and systematic.

Try not to make PFS this mysterious disease.. it can be overcome.. it’s just not a quick fix, and it’s not just doing one thing.. it’s a holistic lifestyle change that covers all bodily systems. Going through this process has made me a stronger person no doubt. don’t romanticize it like they do in propecia help.

Brazil is buggin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zardoz]

Thanks for calling me an idiot. I think only idiots can recognize others.

Guys, I talked to human couple times, he told me he was feeling suicidal, Fausto told me the same and Fausto is taking ssri and it’s still recovering following the protocol. I think you guys should support more instead of just talking here. It’s not that easy to say follow the protocol and you’re ok. It’s not that simple, if a person has severe adrenal fatigue, this person will end up even worse after a fast or during a paleo diet. With adrenal fatigue some exercises will be worse for adrenals because it will increase cortisol. The rest is great for everybody.


Jesus, Bill Nigh the bullshit guy, you've really figured this shit out haven't you? Your solution to this kid's situation is to pop a couple more pills, sit round on his ass and maybe inject some funky shit into his system? Man, what the fuck are you even doing here?
This whole site is dedicated to following a self improvement regime designed by a guy who spent 6 years figuring out how to recover, and you don't even want to do it? No, you're also TELLING other people not to do it.
Your weak ass toxic mentality should fuck right off to Propecia help and go find some human lab rats there.

[zardoz]

I live in South America and I’m the mom of a 19-year-old that is going through an awful time starting from when he started taking finisteride 1 year and ½ ago due to hair loss which he took until a month ago when he stopped taking it. During the time while he was taking it, he was hospitalized twice with psychotic episodes and was given far too many meds and we later realized it was due to the finisteride and he had no diagnosed mental problems.

It has truly been a rollercoaster of emotions and physical side effects of this damn drug which seems to have drained him of his self being and I am extremally worried pissed off and saddened , he used to enjoy listening to music and reading a lot of books, exercising, riding his bike, working out with weights, generally but at this time he cannot do any of this because when he does, he feels fatigued and is worse. He has a range of symptoms like the following: depression, panic attacks, loss of libido, anhedonia, chronic fatigue, less muscle and less strength, anxiety, mental fog, awaking in the night, suicidal ideations, despair, testicular pain, amongst other.

He did feel better during 3 days where he was with enhanced mental capacities and taking interest in various areas and a little better physically.
He is at this time taking vitamin B6, K, zinc, and magnesium citrate.
Today he had a mini crash of some sorts, he took some tribulus pills and made him worse. The few times he has done exercise, he has felt way worse. On one occation he went to the supermarket on his bike and felt significantly worse afterwards. Why exactly does this happen? Is this some kind of androgen sensitivity in regards of androgenic herbs and exercise? If so, will this change with time?
My question is basically how he can reactivate his 5AR enzymes and to build up his androgen levels and if there is anyone who has recovered whom I can speak to personally?,

I fear that my son is near collapse and I don't trully know how to handle this or trully cheer him up; well more than cheering him up, I want to inspire him with someone who has personally recovered - show him that there's a way out of this hell.

Thanks for reading guys.

Kate, first read this sites recovery section. Your son CAN improve if he's willing to commit to getting better. Then, go to TotalMaleOptimisation and read ALL of it. Your son has to be brave and really fight to recover, but it is definitely possible.

[Brazilianguy]

Jesus, Bill Nigh the bullshit guy, you've really figured this shit out haven't you? Your solution to this kid's situation is to pop a couple more pills, sit round on his ass and maybe inject some funky shit into his system? Man, what the fuck are you even doing here?
This whole site is dedicated to following a self improvement regime designed by a guy who spent 6 years figuring out how to recover, and you don't even want to do it? No, you're also TELLING other people not to do it.
Your weak ass toxic mentality should fuck right off to Propecia help and go find some human lab rats there.

I could be offensive against you too. I was just telling other recoveries, one of the recovered guys said to pay attention about exercises, too much and you will tax your adrenals. Apr1989 recovered doing a different approach, Elb, Beekay, light at the end, Hopingformore, mlevyholden, 1975, big softie, and many others. So stop trying to be a smart person when you don’t even know what you’re talking about. He said once to me that he felt worse doing weightlifting, so if this continue to happen I would say that he should try calisthenics, or even yoga.

If your adrenals are ok, then you can do paleo diet, do heavy weight exercises, do a water fast etc. if they are not ok, then all these things I said will make him worse. The rest of the protocol he can do with no harm at all.

I’m doing the protocol except for heavy weight exercises because I crash from them, the same with paleo diet. I take cold showers everyday, I don’t use soap, estrogenic products etc, so stop being such a jerk and try to help this guy that he will pay more attention to your help than your offensive words and also try to explain the protocol, it’s hard for people to follow someone blindly. That’s why I said to do everything that is listed and pay attention to the body reaction.

There is one guy that is still doing the protocol but he is taking ssri because he felt he really needed, that’s something that it’s for the person to choose. I wouldn’t take them, I wouldn’t take hcg, I’m just saying what doctors will tell people to do. But I will repeat, I told the guy to do the protocol and check how his body will react. Jesus, it’s hard to understand that some people will not benefit from extreme exercises and will get cortisol problems?

[Durantia37]

Thanks for calling me an idiot. I think only idiots can recognize others.

Guys, I talked to human couple times, he told me he was feeling suicidal, Fausto told me the same and Fausto is taking ssri and it’s still recovering following the protocol. I think you guys should support more instead of just talking here. It’s not that easy to say follow the protocol and you’re ok. It’s not that simple, if a person has severe adrenal fatigue, this person will end up even worse after a fast or during a paleo diet. With adrenal fatigue some exercises will be worse for adrenals because it will increase cortisol. The rest is great for everybody.

I shouldn't have called you an idiot, but peddling pseudoscience has serious consequences. The last thing confused, desperate people need is conflicting bullshit opinions from sources they have no way to vet. Basically everything you suggested is counterproductive. Now, how does someone new know that? They don't. So you are harming human beings with your scattershot nonsense.

Of course you shouldn't lift heavy if you're too tired to walk to the mailbox. Anyone can figure that out. No one is saying to stop listening to your body. But you ARE saying it'sa good idea to take substances like HCG and SSRI's which are known to be harmful.

And your (untested, unproven, untrue) notion that you can't fast with adrenal fatigue is the kind of thing that might stop someone from fasting. I don't think you realize how unethical it is to dump your bs theories on a person in need.

[zardoz]

I could be offensive against you too. I was just telling other recoveries, one of the recovered guys said to pay attention about exercises, too much and you will tax your adrenals. Apr1989 recovered doing a different approach, Elb, Beekay, light at the end, Hopingformore, mlevyholden, 1975, big softie, and many others. So stop trying to be a smart person when you don’t even know what you’re talking about. He said once to me that he felt worse doing weightlifting, so if this continue to happen I would say that he should try calisthenics, or even yoga.

If your adrenals are ok, then you can do paleo diet, do heavy weight exercises, do a water fast etc. if they are not ok, then all these things I said will make him worse. The rest of the protocol he can do with no harm at all.

I’m doing the protocol except for heavy weight exercises because I crash from them, the same with paleo diet. I take cold showers everyday, I don’t use soap, estrogenic products etc, so stop being such a jerk and try to help this guy that he will pay more attention to your help than your offensive words and also try to explain the protocol, it’s hard for people to follow someone blindly. That’s why I said to do everything that is listed and pay attention to the body reaction.

There is one guy that is still doing the protocol but he is taking ssri because he felt he really needed, that’s something that it’s for the person to choose. I wouldn’t take them, I wouldn’t take hcg, I’m just saying what doctors will tell people to do. But I will repeat, I told the guy to do the protocol and check how his body will react. Jesus, it’s hard to understand that some people will not benefit from extreme exercises and will get cortisol problems?

You're a real scholar of this shit aren't you. Weird you don't mention the absolute horror stories of guys with PFS taking HCG. I'm sorry lifting weights and waiting till the PM to eat carbs is so fucking extreme for you that you've already given up. It was hard for me too when I started, but I kept going. Fuck this, I've made my point. Have fun pretending to be an endocrinologist on the internet.

[Brazilianguy]

I shouldn't have called you an idiot, but peddling pseudoscience has serious consequences. The last thing confused, desperate people need is conflicting bullshit opinions from sources they have no way to vet. Basically everything you suggested is counterproductive. Now, how does someone new know that? They don't. So you are harming human beings with your scattershot nonsense.

Of course you shouldn't lift heavy if you're too tired to walk to the mailbox. Anyone can figure that out. No one is saying to stop listening to your body. But you ARE saying it'sa good idea to take substances like HCG and SSRI's which are known to be harmful.

And your (untested, unproven, untrue) notion that you can't fast with adrenal fatigue is the kind of thing that might stop someone from fasting. I don't think you realize how unethical it is to dump your bs theories on a person in need.

I talked to the guy for hours on Skype, he was thinking about injecting testosterone, and between testosterone and HCG, the second is less harmful. About ssri. Fausto is taking it and said that he really need it because it was hard to avoid suicidal thoughts.

I don’t remember but I think he did 10 days water fast, he tried coffee enemas, which I back him off. I’m not being unethical, I like the guy, I talked to him everyday and I was telling him everyday to do hiit and exercises.

First thing I said to him was to start doing hiit and exercises and check how his body would react after a couple days at gym. He was worried about getting a high quality herb because he couldn’t get from lost empire because his country would basically stop it in the mail, so I said that he could buy high quality in his country, I also said that it would be a good ideia to test each herb first, because I had bad reaction with panax ginseng and saw some guys getting bad reactions from ashwaghanda.

I basically said everything that is on totalmaleoptimization and said that coffee enemas and liver flush are not good for him. I only said about HCG because he was thinking about TRT once and ssri because he was too desperate and between his life and taking a little bit more to recover I would prefer to say take the medication if you feel that it would help you (but I said it was counterproductive and would be better to take cold showers and exercises to release endorphins)

I had depression with clomid, suicidal thoughts but I new it was from low estrogen (his estradiol is too low and it’s the root of his depression) and I told him that it would go away as soon as his T:E improve.

[Maxout777]

I talked to the guy for hours on Skype, he was thinking about injecting testosterone, and between testosterone and HCG, the second is less harmful. About ssri. Fausto is taking it and said that he really need it because it was hard to avoid suicidal thoughts.

I don’t remember but I think he did 10 days water fast, he tried coffee enemas, which I back him off. I’m not being unethical, I like the guy, I talked to him everyday and I was telling him everyday to do hiit and exercises.

First thing I said to him was to start doing hiit and exercises and check how his body would react after a couple days at gym. He was worried about getting a high quality herb because he couldn’t get from lost empire because his country would basically stop it in the mail, so I said that he could buy high quality in his country, I also said that it would be a good ideia to test each herb first, because I had bad reaction with panax ginseng and saw some guys getting bad reactions from ashwaghanda.

I basically said everything that is on totalmaleoptimization and said that coffee enemas and liver flush are not good for him. I only said about HCG because he was thinking about TRT once and ssri because he was too desperate and between his life and taking a little bit more to recover I would prefer to say take the medication if you feel that it would help you (but I said it was counterproductive and would be better to take cold showers and exercises to release endorphins)

I had depression with clomid, suicidal thoughts but I new it was from low estrogen (his estradiol is too low and it’s the root of his depression) and I told him that it would go away as soon as his T:E improve.

1.) Panax ginseng is NOT suggested for rotation or on the protocol. Please quit talking about it. I used it early on in my recovery and it didn’t help me, basically hurt me.

2.) What is wrong with coffee enemas? In what fucked up sense of mind could you say to someone “nah, man - coffee in the anus is too dangerous. Better start with some HCG or SSRIs.

3.) See #2. What is wrong with Liver Flush? Both of these items I could see CD adding to the protocol because they are both.....wait for it.....FANTASTIC for OVERALL health.

Honestly man, you have been at this for years to no avail. At what point do you consider, I don’t know, following a set blueprint for one whole year and being done with it. No HCG, SSRIs, Clomid, panax ginseng.....just what is recommended here.

[LetsGo]

Brazilianguy
I wouldn’t say that the protocol calls for “extreme” exercising, it’s just strength training & muscle building, 3 days per week. (Bodybuilders generally do 5 to 7 days per week. 3 days, 45 - 60 minutes each time, is not very much.) You have to ease into it. CD said to spend a month just doing isometric exercises (such as push-ups and pull-ups) before you hit the gym. When you do go to the gym, you start with light weights and work up to heavier weights over time.

If you are strong enough to get out of bed every morning and go to work or school, in my opinion you are strong enough to do a push-up. If you are strong enough to do one push up, you are strong enough to build up from there and do more and more. If you can’t do one push up, do one on your knees. If that’s too much, do wall push-ups by leaning against the wall and pushing away, until you are strong enough for knee push ups, then do those until you can do push-ups.

Build up from bench pressing the empty bar (12 kg, 25 lbs), even if you can only do 1 rep. If you’re not strong enough for that, get a spotter to help you. Over time you will get stronger, and you can add 2kg weights next week. And even more the following week. This is called “progressive resistance” and it’s how you become stronger over time. If you just try to bench press 50kg when you’re out of shape, yes, you will hurt yourself or be too sore to work out for a long time. Then you will think you have adrenal fatigue that makes you too weak to exercise, but in reality you were overestimating your initial strength and underestimating your capacity to gain strength over time.

Women, who have almost no testosterone, can build strength and muscle. A PFS-suffering man can also build muscle. This has been proven many times, by the men who dragged themselves to the gym even though they were depressed, had severe brain fog, extreme digestive issues, no libido, impotent, adrenal fatigue, candida, whatever. They followed the full program, and within a few months it was no longer torture for them to work out, it was merely challenging (because they kept increasing the intensity of the workout slowly - over time.)

Yes, it will be hard, and emotionally difficult at first. The first 6 weeks will make you feel worse, but this is a normal part of starting to get in shape, even if you did not have PFS. You have to push past these difficulties for the first few months (lifting only light weights, which are actually not light weights for you when you are just starting out,) and then you will feel better and better over time. You shouldn’t just work out for a month and go “oh, this makes me feel bad, my hormones are too weak for me to be able to work out.”

The reason you are getting a lot of heat here is that this forum is different than the others. This is a forum for people who are following the CDNuts protocol, whereas the other forums are for people who are trying various chemicals, various doctor protocols, various miracle cures, megadose on this vitamin, eat massive amounts of this one food, etc. Some guys have healed by using various random methods, but then 99% of the men who try to repeat it, fail.

What is special about the CDNuts method is that it works for other guys too, not just CD. But it is a long term process, and much harder than taking some pills or injections for a few days or weeks and being cured. If you want to experiment with other cures, you can. But you can’t go in 5 or 6 directions at once, you need to pick one direction, and go at it 100%. If you’re picking this method, then fully commit to it and see how you feel in 6 months, 12 months, etc.

One of the drugs that you mentioned, for restarting testosterone, is also used for chemical castration. I would not recommend playing around with such substances, even at low doses. You can easily end up causing massive damage. Do you realize the risk? But, you own your body, and you are free to do what you want to it.

PFS is not about androgen deficiency - otherwise it would be cured when androgens are balanced through drugs. Over many years, many have tried, and I do not remember many cases of people who were cured by TRT, HCG, clomid, arimedex, etc. The cause of PFS is reduced androgen sensitivity, which doctors do not know how to treat with their pills.

With PFS, the body (brain and genitals) no longer respond normally to DHT and possibly also testosterone, possibly also some other neurosteroids that are affected by finasteride and similar drugs. The protocol addresses this over time, where sensitivity is slowly restored, but it is a gradual process where progress happens over many months, with ups and downs, but an overall upward trend. If you leave out the strength training exercises and eat some junk food sometimes, you’re not doing the program, and you shouldn’t expect the results of the program.

If a man wants to try to be cured through testosterone injections, HCG, SSRIs, chemical castration drugs, etc, let him go to PH. That is a website filled with people attempting those methods and sharing their results. Or let him wait 20 - 30 years to see if the PFS Foundation is able to discover a miracle cure (but... how old will he be?)

This forum is specifically for people who have chosen to follow this protocol. We don’t want it to turn into a second PH, and that is why you are getting such a negative reaction when you suggest conflicting methods. I hope that whatever methods you choose work, and that you are fully healed in the future. But, this is not the right forum for those other methods you are talking about.

[RickTheRuler]

Brazilianguy
I wouldn’t say that the protocol calls for “extreme” exercising, it’s just strength training & muscle building, 3 days per week. (Bodybuilders generally do 5 to 7 days per week. 3 days, 45 - 60 minutes each time, is not very much.) You have to ease into it. CD said to spend a month just doing isometric exercises (such as push-ups and pull-ups) before you hit the gym. When you do go to the gym, you start with light weights and work up to heavier weights over time.

If you are strong enough to get out of bed every morning and go to work or school, in my opinion you are strong enough to do a push-up. If you are strong enough to do one push up, you are strong enough to build up from there and do more and more. If you can’t do one push up, do one on your knees. If that’s too much, do wall push-ups by leaning against the wall and pushing away, until you are strong enough for knee push ups, then do those until you can do push-ups.

Build up from bench pressing the empty bar (12 kg, 25 lbs), even if you can only do 1 rep. If you’re not strong enough for that, get a spotter to help you. Over time you will get stronger, and you can add 2kg weights next week. And even more the following week. This is called “progressive resistance” and it’s how you become stronger over time. If you just try to bench press 50kg when you’re out of shape, yes, you will hurt yourself or be too sore to work out for a long time. Then you will think you have adrenal issues that make you too weak to exercise, but in reality you were overestimating your initial strength and underestimating your capacity to gain strength over time.

Women, who have almost no testosterone, can build strength and muscle. Any able-bodied PFS man can also build muscle. This has been proven many times, by the men who were dragging themselves to the gym even though they were depressed, had severe brain fog, severe digestive issues, no libido, impotent, adrenal fatigue, candida, whatever. They followed the full program, and within a few months it was no longer torture to work out, it was merely challenging.

Yes, it will be hard, and emotionally difficult at first. The first 6 weeks will make you feel worse, but this is a normal part of starting to get in shape, even if you did not have PFS. You have to push past these difficulties for the first few months, and then you will feel better and better.

The reason you are getting a lot of heat here is that this forum is different than the others. This is a forum for people who are following the CDNuts protocol, whereas the other forums are for people who are trying various chemicals, various doctor protocols, various miracle cures, megadose on this vitamin, eat massive amounts of this one food, etc. Some guys have healed by using various random methods, but then 99% of the men who try to repeat it, fail.

What is special about the CDNuts method is that it works for other guys too. But it is long term, and much harder than taking some pills or injections. If you want to experiment with other cures, you will mess up the results and progress will be very slow or not happen at all. You can’t go in 5 or 6 directions at once, pick one direction and go at it 100%.

One of the drugs that you mentioned, for restarting testosterone, is also used for chemical castration. I would not recommend playing around with such substances, even at lower doses. You can easily end up causing massive damage. Do you realize the risk? But, you own your body, and you are free to do what you want to it.

PFS is not about androgen deficiency - otherwise it would be cured when androgens are balanced through drugs. Over many years, many have tried, and I do not remember reading about anyone who was cured by TRT, HCG, clomid, arimedex, etc. The cause of PFS is reduced androgen sensitivity.

With PFS the body (brain and genitals) no longer respond normally to DHT and possibly also testosterone, possibly also some other neurosteroids that are affected by finasteride and similar drugs. The protocol addresses this over time, where sensitivity is slowly restored, but it is a gradual process where progress happens over many months, with ups and downs, but an overall upward trend. If you leave out the exercises and eat some junk food sometimes, you’re not doing the program and you shouldn’t expect the results of the program.

If someone wants to try to be cured through testosterone injections, HCG, SSRIs, etc, let them go to PH. That is a website filled with people attempting those methods. Or let them wait 20 - 30 years to see if the PFS Foundation is able to discover a miracle cure (but, by then, how old will you be?)

This forum is for people who have chosen to follow this particular protocol. We don’t want it to turn into a second PH, and that is why you are getting such a negative reaction. I hope that whatever methods you choose work, and that you are fully healed in the future. But, this is not the forum for those other methods you are talking about.

Perfectly said. A lot of things recommend may sound counterproductive like lifting while your adrenals are shot or anything else..pfs is a different beast, you just gotta do everything no matter how you feel. I get listening to your body but at the same time you can’t listen to your body, know what I mean???you can tell the difference between the two. One is way more drastic...
I ignore everything for the most part, it’s almost like at times you can’t trust what your body’s telling you while your recovering, you just have to put your head down and grind.. & go through the symptoms...
my first couple of weeks of my first Andro run were suicidal depressed madness, but I know it’s cause of lowering estrogen/messing with serotonin.. eventually it got better, and after the cycle my baseline deff got slightly higher. You just have to not give a shit about the changes that are going on & love the process.

However, I do believe that working out too long causes issues. You can beast in the gym but it has to be an hour tops. That’s about it.. my sessions are short and intense as hell.. it’s worse for you if you get excessive with how long your working out vs how intense it is.. short and explosive. If your gonna go hard as hell only lift 3x a week max... not 5-6 days.. the crazy volume and excessive time in the gym can potentially be equivalent to the effects of too much long distance jogging.. cortisol inferno.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SS7]

Hi Kate - if you're still here, stick with us. As you can see you've had a lot of people chime in and a lot to read!

If it's a lot to process, don't worry. As the majority of people have said, there is definitely no "quick fix" for this and it must be so so so upsetting to see your son like this. I can also promise it's hell for him, hell like nothing else. But we have a way out.

Follow the protocol, as everyone here suggests - just a reminder of that. It's a tough route, but stick it.

Please, for the time being, do ignore Brazilianguy - his heart's so in the right place but he definitely doesn't have the answers for you. Follow the protocol as we all are, and reap the improvements as we all are. I couldn't recommend anything else. But hell at 19 years old my money's on him being one of the swifter recoveries!

With any luck a Moderator called Cdnuts will be along shortly - he knows everything there is to know and, if you hadn't guessed already, fixed himself of PFS and wrote the protocol we all follow. I am certain the only advice he'll offer though is to follow and do everything as outlined: Total Male Optimization (http://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/)

Buy what you can of the herb rotation for Lost Empire as linked, their quality is superb. Don't have to get the whole lot at once but CERTAINLY get enough for a weekly rotation at first, and with the rotation the supply you get in will last for ages.

So, first thing to do is get the fast underway! I did 7 days myself, and SERIOUSLY I felt 100% on the day after! I'm willing to bet that fasting alone cures some outright even! During that, prepare for the juicing. I'd make that a solid few weeks myself. That should get you time to have the herbs in and start the rotation and the exercise, with a grip on meditation and breathing exercises. Don't miss out ANY part, especially the cold showers. They're no fun but you do get used to them (I'm the biggest complainer when it comes to those honestly!)

...And again, 19 years old?? This young man will be a BEAST when he's recovered!

You're a great mum - keep at this and maybe get him to join us? We're a gruff bunch but we love a committed sufferer working to their recovery. He'd be very welcome here.

There are other fora working on "cures" (and some are getting huge strides along) but DO NOT go looking for them. I promise you'll spend days/weeks researching dead ends and (worse) spend hundreds on useless supplements and waste a lot of hope and energy. This site here is all you need. Don't worry - if gbold and/or the propeciahelp crew DO find an insta-cure we'll certainly post it up!

In short, keep helping your son, do the protocol, you'll both get through this.

[Brazilianguy]

Hi Kate - if you're still here, stick with us. As you can see you've had a lot of people chime in and a lot to read!

If it's a lot to process, don't worry. As the majority of people have said, there is definitely no "quick fix" for this and it must be so so so upsetting to see your son like this. I can also promise it's hell for him, hell like nothing else. But we have a way out.

Follow the protocol, as everyone here suggests - just a reminder of that. It's a tough route, but stick it.

Please, for the time being, do ignore Brazilianguy - his heart's so in the right place but he definitely doesn't have the answers for you. Follow the protocol as we all are, and reap the improvements as we all are. I couldn't recommend anything else. But hell at 19 years old my money's on him being one of the swifter recoveries!

With any luck a Moderator called Cdnuts will be along shortly - he knows everything there is to know and, if you hadn't guessed already, fixed himself of PFS and wrote the protocol we all follow. I am certain the only advice he'll offer though is to follow and do everything as outlined: Total Male Optimization (http://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/)

Buy what you can of the herb rotation for Lost Empire as linked, their quality is superb. Don't have to get the whole lot at once but CERTAINLY get enough for a weekly rotation at first, and with the rotation the supply you get in will last for ages.

So, first thing to do is get the fast underway! I did 7 days myself, and SERIOUSLY I felt 100% on the day after! I'm willing to bet that fasting alone cures some outright even! During that, prepare for the juicing. I'd make that a solid few weeks myself. That should get you time to have the herbs in and start the rotation and the exercise, with a grip on meditation and breathing exercises. Don't miss out ANY part, especially the cold showers. They're no fun but you do get used to them (I'm the biggest complainer when it comes to those honestly!)

...And again, 19 years old?? This young man will be a BEAST when he's recovered!

You're a great mum - keep at this and maybe get him to join us? We're a gruff bunch but we love a committed sufferer working to their recovery. He'd be very welcome here.

There are other fora working on "cures" (and some are getting huge strides along) but DO NOT go looking for them. I promise you'll spend days/weeks researching dead ends and (worse) spend hundreds on useless supplements and waste a lot of hope and energy. This site here is all you need. Don't worry - if gbold and/or the propeciahelp crew DO find an insta-cure we'll certainly post it up!

In short, keep helping your son, do the protocol, you'll both get through this.

Yeah, just ignore me. I just tried to help him. He was obsessed with herbal in powder and I said that some herbs are better in pill form, like androsten (the best tribulus I found). About coffee enemas and liver flush, I didn’t see anybody recovering doing that, if he feels better doing it, keep doing it. He was thinking about fecal matter transplant too, I don’t see how it would make a person better, but if he feels like it could be a good idea, it’s ok.

Just to remind you guys, I told him about the website and to follow it, but he wasn’t doing the exercises and hiit, keep in mind that people with depression sometimes can’t get out of bed.

Kate, just ignore all my posts, follow what they say, I just tried to help but I rather keep my mouth shut because I think it’s better to say nothing instead of saying some bullshit.

[jacknap]

Perfectly said. A lot of things recommend may sound counterproductive like lifting while your adrenals are shot or anything else..pfs is a different beast, you just gotta do everything no matter how you feel. I get listening to your body but at the same time you can’t listen to your body, know what I mean???you can tell the difference between the two. One is way more drastic...
I ignore everything for the most part, it’s almost like at times you can’t trust what your body’s telling you while your recovering, you just have to put your head down and grind.. & go through the symptoms...
my first couple of weeks of my first Andro run were suicidal depressed madness, but I know it’s cause of lowering estrogen/messing with serotonin.. eventually it got better, and after the cycle my baseline deff got slightly higher. You just have to not give a shit about the changes that are going on & love the process.

However, I do believe that working out too long causes issues. You can beast in the gym but it has to be an hour tops. That’s about it.. my sessions are short and intense as hell.. it’s worse for you if you get excessive with how long your working out vs how intense it is.. short and explosive. If your gonna go hard as hell only lift 3x a week max... not 5-6 days.. the crazy volume and excessive time in the gym can potentially be equivalent to the effects of too much long distance jogging.. cortisol inferno.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yeah you can't really trust your body in pfs. my mind was telling me to kill myself and that it was all over but it's not and i'm glad I didn't listen to it. lol

[Kate]

Hey guys thank you all for your replies every little thing is of great help, just as an update to keep you informed he is still feeling quite depressed and anxious to some extent and feeling most of the effect I mentioned before. Last night he was only able to only sleep about 3 hours so, he was pretty drained for most part of the day, and the upside he was able to take a quick sprint, which gives me hope in that he is able and overcome the lack of energy from all of this and repeat this hopefuly on a daily basis.

Once again being able to contact any of of personally would be great for boosting his spirits.

[SS7]

Hey guys thank you all for your replies every little thing is of great help, just as an update to keep you informed he is still feeling quite depressed and anxious to some extent and feeling most of the effect I mentioned before. Last night he was only able to only sleep about 3 hours so, he was pretty drained for most part of the day, and the upside he was able to take a quick sprint, which gives me hope in that he is able and overcome the lack of energy from all of this and repeat this hopefuly on a daily basis.

Once again being able to contact any of of personally would be great for boosting his spirits.

Hi there - yes, insomnia and anxiety/depression (as you probably know by now) are symptoms. Unfortunate ones too, as most of them are. If he's already up and doing sprints though that's great! Good start for sure. Usually sleep and mood get better enough that life is manageable over the first few weeks/months, so keep at it. Sexual symptoms (sorry to say) are usually the most stubborn and the last to shift. But we're all different and all respond differently!

Seems to be though across many recoveries (on this board and off it) that exercise and diet are totally crucial factors. I was in his position myself in October, now I sleep 6-9 hours/night and my mental sides are just enough manageable for work - and I'm WAY older than your son.

Can he sign up here and talk to us? If not it's no problem. Feel free to PM me but I'll probably say the same thing to you privately as I'd say here. Also, if you can make things more public, someone suffering in the future might read and be helped by your posts and exchanges.

See if you can spend the day getting the protocol down, planning it, and getting yourself the herbs in. Start with 7, I'd probably ensure tribulus, fo-ti and ashwaganda were in there (might be better opinions on mine on a "starting out" herb cycle) and gradually build up.

He'll get through it, that's for sure, but it'll never be as quick as he might want it to be. Also the process of getting through it involves big ups and downs, and periods of feeling better then feeling worse - when you start to hit downswings and upswings don't despair at them, they are in themselves a good sign.

So, next thing to do for you both is get a fast started. I went just about a week myself, water and rest only. After that, juice feast. All that's in the protocol. He'll lose a bit of weight but this pays HUGE dividends in helping the gut to heal, helping the liver expel and deal with the finasteride (at least, that's how I've personally read it.) I mean, a STRICT 7-day fast and then a juice feast on their own MIGHT even fix him! Stranger things have... If not, my most swift and solid improvements came about following my fast.

[Cdsnuts]

I’m not recovered but I think he should start taking antidepressants if the situation is unbearable. If tribulus didn’t work well for him, he should try other brands or other herbs. I don’t know if it’s a good idea taking too many vitamins, I got bad reactions from vitamin D and omega 3. So maybe less is more.

I also think too many exercises can be bad if he has adrenal/cortisol problems. A lot of guys in the early stages has suicidal thoughts and depression, it’s neurotransmitter thing that will subside when he starts to improve, it’s actually the first thing to recover (depression) so he needs to understand that this is beateble and read recoveries to see that it’s possible. That’s what I did when I was at my worst.

More pharmaceuticals aren't the problem. If you want to fix your son, we have everything you need here to do it.

Brazilian Guy....listen...I appreciate your willingness to help, but to recommend anti-depressants right off the bat like that....come on dude. Did you forget what this forum is all about?

[Cdsnuts]

His estradiol is too low, that's the cause of his depression and suicidal thoughts. He needs to see ways of increasing it, the best way to increase is by increasing testosterone. Maybe he could try one thing called triptorelin, but its too strong, so read a lot about it before deciding to take it (it will increase testosterone and estradiol). I think would be a good idea to read about Apr1989 (its a recovered guy from propeciahelp forum) he had low T and low estradiol, he took triptorelin just one shot and his testosterone got stable at a high level. He could also try HCG with a doctor.

Guys won't be covered me up as much. But if he felt worse doing exercises, maybe he should try only other things. Ask him to call me on skype, I talked to him in the past. He needs to increase his estradiol to 22 at least, and it can't be more than 30.

Dude....what is your deal lately? You're all over the map. I highly suggest.....no...I ask that you don't give advice to new people to this forum. Because honestly, it's horrible. Everyone here knows what they have to do. That is the only reason this forum is still alive. Why you're trying to tweak this and change that, I have no idea, but stop. You're not helping anyone and could possibly lead them down a worse path.

Get your shit together Brazilian Guy.....

[Brazilianguy]

More pharmaceuticals aren't the problem. If you want to fix your son, we have everything you need here to do it.

Brazilian Guy....listen...I appreciate your willingness to help, but to recommend anti-depressants right off the bat like that....come on dude. Did you forget what this forum is all about?

It wasn’t right off the bat, I talk to this guy everyday. He was completely desperate and Fausto told me that with antidepressants he could feel better. Fausto is taking ssri and herbs and he is recovering.

[Brazilianguy]

Dude....what is your deal lately? You're all over the map. I highly suggest.....no...I ask that you don't give advice to new people to this forum. Because honestly, it's horrible. Everyone here knows what they have to do. That is the only reason this forum is still alive. Why you're trying to tweak this and change that, I have no idea, but stop. You're not helping anyone and could possibly lead them down a worse path.

Get your shit together Brazilian Guy.....

Ok, I won’t give any advice anymore, so if you could talk to him on skype without charging, that would be great because he is a really nice guy that is really depressed.

It’s not that bad advices when I say that paleo diet, water fast, too much exercises, caffeine, can get you cortisol and adrenal problems, I cut all these parts of your recovery program and I’m feeling much better without it, I’m following the rest, but what I’m trying to say is that if I take only one test booster (I can still take other herbs as long as they don’t increase T etc) and avoid getting my body in a stress state with long running (I know it’s not part of your protocol is just an example), weight lifting, caffeine, paleo etc, I get much better comparing to following your protocol 100%.

And just to be clear, there is one guy that mixed your protocol with lightattheend protocol that got cured. He basically avoided exercises and caffeine, he was rotating 7 herbs only and recovered in 4 months.

Edit: The nickname of the guy is Elb, there is another one that did almost the same thing that recovered too his nickname is Beekay. Actually the majority of recoveries are at least 70% like your protocol. So if a person feel worse doing some of the things I don’t see why it’s too bad to cut some parts of the protocol that can be risky to adrenals.

[Cdsnuts]

It wasn’t right off the bat, I talk to this guy everyday. He was completely desperate and Fausto told me that with antidepressants he could feel better. Fausto is taking ssri and herbs and he is recovering.

This is not following the protocol.

It is very clearly outlined. If you guys want to change things around and pick and choose what part to implement, you're not doing yourself or anyone else any favors, especially recommending things that are NOT part of the regimen. This forum is not the place for that.

[Brazilianguy]

This is not following the protocol.

It is very clearly outlined. If you guys want to change things around and pick and choose what part to implement, you're not doing yourself or anyone else any favors, especially recommending things that are NOT part of the regimen. This forum is not the place for that.

Well, why I’m getting better results now that I quit exercises, too much test boosters and paleo diet? It can’t be a coincidence. Maybe it could help other people too if they have problems with their adrenals, I always got worse from fasting, from paleo diet, intermittent fasting. In my case it’s better to eat carbs basically in all meals but in less quantity.

[Cdsnuts]

Well, why I’m getting better results now that I quit exercises, too much test boosters and paleo diet? It can’t be a coincidence. Maybe it could help other people too if they have problems with their adrenals, I always got worse from fasting, from paleo diet, intermittent fasting. In my case it’s better to eat carbs basically in all meals but in less quantity.

Because I know for a fact you're not implementing 100% of the protocol. This is an all or nothing endevour, anything less isn't going to work. If you're not going to do what everyone else has been doing, and recovering, then I guess there is nothing much more here for you. I certainly can't have you giving advice to new people who are already confused and scared, especially when that advice isn't correct.

[Kate]

Hi guys, I'm doing an update. Yesterday was a bad day for him he had his 6th session of Deep TMS and he had a panic attack before doing it , he has been having face numbness after starting this and has not had erections, when he finished the session and felt like a ghost and could barely speak, I´m also wondering if this could also be do the fact that he took Tribulus 7 days ago and crashed, the Deep TMS starts showing its effects around the 10th session.
Please let me know your and thoughts.

[SS7]

Hi guys, I'm doing an update. Yesterday was a bad day for him he had his 6th session of Deep TMS and he had a panic attack before doing it , he has been having face numbness after starting this and has not had erections, when he finished the session and felt like a ghost and could barely speak, I´m also wondering if this could also be do the fact that he took Tribulus 7 days ago and crashed, the Deep TMS starts showing its effects around the 10th session.
Please let me know your and thoughts.

Hi Kate - sorry to hear that. No doctor here, but we're on our own until PFS (Post Finasteride Syndrome) actually gets recognised. At the moment, doctors don't know what to do with us, and there probably isn't much they could do instantly to fix us even if it were recognised. Depression is what many will put this down to, because it appears to them to *mostly* fit that bill, and they *mostly* know how to treat that one - so that's what you'll be told. Depression though is an all-too-common symptom of PFS, and not the problem itself.

I'm not sure I'd suggest carrying on with this or not. But what I would do is get started as swiftly as possible on the protocol. It's going to be hard work, and REALLY unfair at the beginning as that's when you have to put the most effort in whilst personally feeling the worst!

But around here, this is what we do. And we have success. Some recover slowly, some in mere months, but it's a well-respected regime on here, Hackstasis, Ray Peat etc.

Your very very best bet is getting started on the protocol. As much of it as you can at the start, but definitely be doing all of it within a few weeks.

Can your son sign up and post here?

[LetsGo]

I’m sorry to hear that your son is going through all these hardships.

I do think he has PFS, but unfortunately TMS treatments will not cure PFS. His problem is not standard depression, but the doctors tend to consider this a depression or anxiety issue because that’s what they have treatments for.

I think your son’s immediate priority should be to stabilize his emotions as much as he can (meditate, maybe talk to a therapist) and start getting decent sleep. It’s hard to do anything if you’re not sleeping.

I don’t think taking tribulus would give him a panic attack 7 days later. I think he’s having panic attacks because he’s terrified of his symptoms and is thinking he will never be normal again, etc.

He just needs to first, accept that this is what he has, understand that it is reversible if he puts in the work, and also that PFS does not pose a threat to his life. He needs to be able to calm down and relax, and not be in a constant state of panic. Nobody can be cured until they have calmed down (but being calm is not enough to cure someone by itself.)

Once he’s able to sleep a bit more, and isn’t panicking so much, he can start the program more fully. I would especially focus on sleep and exercise. The herbal supplements will not cure him alone - it only works as part of a broader program.

He should keep in mind that it will take time to heal. In the meantime I hope he can get the panic under control. I’m not sure if the TMS treatments will help his mood, but depression is really a symptom here, not the cause.

If he goes down the doctor route, he will wind up on tons of different drugs and it tends not to cure anyone of PFS, unfortunately.

The good news is that even if he didn’t have PFS, the program would still be helpful to him. I don’t think you have to believe in PFS to be helped by the program, just don’t get caught up in testosterone injections and all these other treatments that do not help PFS.

[Pablo]

As I said before, I highly encourage everyone to look into Dr. JACK KRUSE´s work (google it). As I see it right now, he is the best doctor in the world I am aware of. He recommends many things cdnuts does, but he also goes into huge detail. I think details are very important in some cases. I have to say that I really like most of the things in the cdnuts protocol, but I have my doubts about some of them. For example, I have read information that fasting, though very useful in some cases, could be a bad idea to someone who is very sick (if you stress to much an already stressed/ sick system it could break. Some stress could be good, to much not).

Another one is SUN exposure, but there are specific ways to obtain maximum benefits and minimum drawbacks from it. You should expose the most amount of the body as possible AND do not cover your eyes with sunglasses, glasses or, especially contact lenses. You should do that especially first time in the morning and later in the evening when there is less UV content in order to allow the body to build a "sollar callus", that is, to be able to absorb the more UV content during midday. I would also expose the body during midday, but initially not much time, increasing time exposure GRADUALLY and depending upon things like skin tone and solar power of the season / location.

This may all sound weird at first, but think about it, we humans evolved during hundreds of thousands of years with certain environmental commonalities, which would make our bodies more responsive to certain conditions:

1-Diet: That is why I think a Paleo Diet is great. But there are also details here, which I won´t go to much into. I´ll just say that we evolved to eat SEASONALLY and DEPENDING UPON LOCATION. That is in low light and cold environments you are probably adapted to eat ketogenic (high quality fats) and not high carb, and the opposite would be true during strong solar cycles.

2-Light: This is the biggest healing factor IMO, for what I´ve read and experienced. It is directly tied to CIRCADIAN RYTHMS. We evolved under the Sun, not under artificial LED/ fluorescent / incandescente bulbs (even though the last ones are a bit better, with less blue content and a more balanced spectrum, more similar to the Sun). So... I´ll spend lots of time outdoors during the day and at nighttime I would use BLUEBLOCKER GLASSES (search in google, any biohacker now knows why this is important, blue light at night from artificial screens and even light bulbs stops your melatonin secretion = you don´t have restorative sleep = you don´t heal, or you do it much slower).

3- Temperature: Cold exposure is also benefitial, but especially in low light cycles... It is all tied together, like an orchestra.

Sun exposure + mindfulness meditation saved my life. It got me out of the hole of depression and emotional roller coaster.

There will be hundreds of suggestions in the internet and it is super easy to get overwhelmed, I still do sometimes. It is important to get priorities. I would prioritize: 1- Sunlight during the day and avoiding and blocking artificial light during the night (CIRCADIAN RYTHM OPTIMIZATION, google this) 2-Meditation or some sort of relaxation technique, as well as walking and spending LOTS OF TIME IN NATURE. 3- Avoiding nnEMF´s (excessive mobile phone usage, wifi, or leaving near cell phone towers or high voltage power lines... Yeah this sucks, but I also think it´s huge). 4-Eating a Paleo Diet, but also tied to circadian cycles (e.g. try to eat mostly during daytime and nothing or little during nighttime. This is also what we are designed to do. 5-Try "earthing": Google it, there are many reports and several studies about this, I realize this also seems a bit far out there but there is science behind. Did you know Lance Amstrong did this?Could walking barefoot on grass improve your health? Some research suggests it can. - The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/could-walking-barefoot-on-the-grass-improve-your-health-the-science-behind-grounding/2018/07/05/12de5d64-7be2-11e8-aeee-4d04c8ac6158_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.90fc928bc429) 6-Last but not least, be kind with your Sun and try to be empathetic and understand his situation. It is hard, very hard. But there is a lot of hope too. Life can be good again :)

All the best,

Pablo.

PD: Another thing that I don´t totally agree with is exercising in a gym. Yeah... I loved the gym. But lately I´ve been exercising outdoors and it feels much better. There is an explanation for this which comes back to light effects, we can discuss it in the future. Right now I´m doing calisthenics, sprints and a bit of cardio with lots of nature walking. But to someone like this young man who is quite sick I wouldn´t recommend netiher fasting nor extrenous exercises, I think it could be too much stress to the body. When he gets a bit better... maybe yes. RECONNECT WITH NATURE!!!

I say all this and I´m 90% recovered, not 100%, but in the last few months I switched a little bit the protocol to this and I´m seen good results. I hope to report in 1-2 months and say I´m 100%, I see it very plausible. We are all in this together... come on!! :)

[Brazilianguy]

He took 3 pills all at once of a super strong tribulus. He forgot to put here.

[Pablo]

I would always go natural!!! Panick attacks are normal I think, they suck for sure... I got totally rid of them during the first summer of recovery with lots of times outdoors in the sun + meditation.

It worked like magic for me, it was hard to believe... it is about balancing neurotransmitters in the brain, there are lots of studies about meditation changing brain wave activity and neurotransmitter status. Also sunlight through the skin and the eye creates dopamine... feel good hormone. It does many other things... Just don´t look directly to the Sun, especially midday or you´ll get blind... (no bueno), but rather let the sun rays get PERIPHERICALLY through the retina. It builds intraocular MELATONIN (e.g sleep and repair hormone) and also dopamine. Try also to stay away as much as you can from screen devices (get your BLUEBLOCKER GLASSES read this!!!) and excessive technology usage.

I know all this things may sound weird, but if you have doubts about this: 1-Try it, it won´t hurt 2-Check J Kruse´s explanations... he goes deep 3-Ask me and I can (or I think so) find you some studies or references...

[Cdsnuts]

As I said before, I highly encourage everyone to look into Dr. JACK KRUSE´s work (google it). As I see it right now, he is the best doctor in the world I am aware of. He recommends many things cdnuts does, but he also goes into huge detail. I think details are very important in some cases. I have to say that I really like most of the things in the cdnuts protocol, but I have my doubts about some of them. For example, I have read information that fasting, though very useful in some cases, could be a bad idea to someone who is very sick (if you stress to much an already stressed/ sick system it could break. Some stress could be good, to much not).

Another one is SUN exposure, but there are specific ways to obtain maximum benefits and minimum drawbacks from it. You should expose the most amount of the body as possible AND do not cover your eyes with sunglasses, glasses or, especially contact lenses. You should do that especially first time in the morning and later in the evening when there is less UV content in order to allow the body to build a "sollar callus", that is, to be able to absorb the more UV content during midday. I would also expose the body during midday, but initially not much time, increasing time exposure GRADUALLY and depending upon things like skin tone and solar power of the season / location.

This may all sound weird at first, but think about it, we humans evolved during hundreds of thousands of years with certain environmental commonalities, which would make our bodies more responsive to certain conditions:

1-Diet: That is why I think a Paleo Diet is great. But there are also details here, which I won´t go to much into. I´ll just say that we evolved to eat SEASONALLY and DEPENDING UPON LOCATION. That is in low light and cold environments you are probably adapted to eat ketogenic (high quality fats) and not high carb, and the opposite would be true during strong solar cycles.

2-Light: This is the biggest healing factor IMO, for what I´ve read and experienced. It is directly tied to CIRCADIAN RYTHMS. We evolved under the Sun, not under artificial LED/ fluorescent / incandescente bulbs (even though the last ones are a bit better, with less blue content and a more balanced spectrum, more similar to the Sun). So... I´ll spend lots of time outdoors during the day and at nighttime I would use BLUEBLOCKER GLASSES (search in google, any biohacker now knows why this is important, blue light at night from artificial screens and even light bulbs stops your melatonin secretion = you don´t have restorative sleep = you don´t heal, or you do it much slower).

3- Temperature: Cold exposure is also benefitial, but especially in low light cycles... It is all tied together, like an orchestra.

Sun exposure + mindfulness meditation saved my life. It got me out of the hole of depression and emotional roller coaster.

There will be hundreds of suggestions in the internet and it is super easy to get overwhelmed, I still do sometimes. It is important to get priorities. I would prioritize: 1- Sunlight during the day and avoiding and blocking artificial light during the night (CIRCADIAN RYTHM OPTIMIZATION, google this) 2-Meditation or some sort of relaxation technique, as well as walking and spending LOTS OF TIME IN NATURE. 3- Avoiding nnEMF´s (excessive mobile phone usage, wifi, or leaving near cell phone towers or high voltage power lines... Yeah this sucks, but I also think it´s huge). 4-Eating a Paleo Diet, but also tied to circadian cycles (e.g. try to eat mostly during daytime and nothing or little during nighttime. This is also what we are designed to do. 5-Try "earthing": Google it, there are many reports and several studies about this, I realize this also seems a bit far out there but there is science behind. Did you know Lance Amstrong did this?Could walking barefoot on grass improve your health? Some research suggests it can. - The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/could-walking-barefoot-on-the-grass-improve-your-health-the-science-behind-grounding/2018/07/05/12de5d64-7be2-11e8-aeee-4d04c8ac6158_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.90fc928bc429) 6-Last but not least, be kind with your Sun and try to be empathetic and understand his situation. It is hard, very hard. But there is a lot of hope too. Life can be good again :)

All the best,

Pablo.

PD: Another thing that I don´t totally agree with is exercising in a gym. Yeah... I loved the gym. But lately I´ve been exercising outdoors and it feels much better. There is an explanation for this which comes back to light effects, we can discuss it in the future. Right now I´m doing calisthenics, sprints and a bit of cardio with lots of nature walking. But to someone like this young man who is quite sick I wouldn´t recommend netiher fasting nor extrenous exercises, I think it could be too much stress to the body. When he gets a bit better... maybe yes. RECONNECT WITH NATURE!!!

I say all this and I´m 90% recovered, not 100%, but in the last few months I switched a little bit the protocol to this and I´m seen good results. I hope to report in 1-2 months and say I´m 100%, I see it very plausible. We are all in this together... come on!! :)

In regards to your doubts, fasting can be argued either way, and both sides have merit. When in doubt, Juice feast. Regardless this doesn't change my recommendations simply because of my experiences with this part of the protocol. But you need to clarify something. One of the other things you had doubts about was sun exposure yet you went on to tout the benefits of it? It didn't come across very clear. I recommend gradual exposure starting in April (if you live in the North East) to build what you call a "solar callous." So you're basically agreeing with these recommendations. I don't see how this comes across as doubt.

Lastly, I have no problems with people saying pretty much whatever they want on this forum as I am an advocate for free speech, as long as it's helpful to those that are here. That being said, this forum is to discuss the TMO protocol. There are plenty of other places to discuss other things. This just isn't one of them. I personally haven't looked into this doctor that you're mentioning here, and have mentioned plenty of other times before, but if he is saying the same things I am saying, then I guess it's close enough to be okay. Point is, this is hard enough without watering things down and giving people too many options to choose from.

We know for a fact that the protocol works, so that's where I want to keep the focus. As always, thank you for your contributions as they are typically very detailed and for the most part, spot on.

Congrats on your progress thus far as well.