Let’s Go - My Journey to 100%

[LetsGo]

Hey everyone.

I took finasteride from 2009 to 2012, and had gradually worsening sides that I didn’t connect to the drug. I took zoloft from 2001 to 2009. I’m 35 and a half now.

The finasteride sides were: no morning wood, 1/10 orgasm quality, reduced libido (80% to 90% lower), some brain fog, vastly reduced sensitivity (very little to no pleasure from stimulation), and it was nearly impossible to orgasm when with a partner (as I would feel almost nothing, even after weeks of not fapping.) However, my erection quality was excellent the entire time, which allowed me to delude myself into thinking this was not PFS.

Several therapists, and my family, convinced me repeatedly over the years that this couldn’t be PFS (which they didn’t seem to firmly believe in), and so I spent years not getting better. However, I do not believe in worrying about the past.

In February I got all the herbs, did a juice feast, and then started rotating the herbs, and lifting weights 3 days per week (although a couple of weeks it was only 2 workouts per week because I overdid it and didn’t want to train while I had neck muscle soreness. I strained my neck muscles by lifting too heavy sometimes.)

I am making some strength gains, but not much in the way of muscle mass gains so far - I’ll need to eat more. I’ll do monthly tape measurings and fat measurements with calipers, and maybe start weighing myself every day to make sure I keep my weight up. If I’m going to work out, I might as well make some muscle gains, too.

Within just a few days of starting the herbal rotation and workouts, my libido was improving a lot. About 2.5 weeks in, I was able to climax in a reasonable amount of time during sex, but the climaxing pleasure was maybe 1.25/10, up from 1/10.

I hope that my sensitivity and orgasm quality improve over time - we’ll see how that goes. It might take significantly longer for that to start returning.

I get strong morning wood about 3/7 of days now, up from about 1/120 of days (aka about 3 days per year) before, (though I would get weak morning wood once or twice per two weeks.) I get weak morning wood maybe 2/7, and no morning wood about 2/7. I’m so glad that I’m getting morning wood again, even if it’s not every day.

I also feel a bit less foggy, but I’m not 100% at all, and things still feel off a lot of the time.

This will be controversial for some, but I have kept a plant-based (vegan) diet since 2015. It’s been working well for me; my blood markers improved vastly, and I will keep doing it. Your mileage may vary, I’m not telling anyone else to switch their diets. I’m also NOT here to debate veganism, and I’m only (very reluctantly) mentioning this in case a vegan PFS lurker reads this and wants to know if a whole foods plant based diet can be subbed in instead of a paleo diet. I am the first person to ever attempt it, and I’m making progress.

I will post more updates here and there, but not all of my short-term ups and downs need to be mentioned.

[Cdsnuts]

Hey everyone.

I took finasteride from 2009 to 2012, and had gradually worsening sides that I didn’t connect to the drug. I took zoloft from 2001 to 2009. I’m 35 and a half now.

The finasteride sides were: no morning wood, 1/10 orgasm quality, reduced libido (80% to 90% lower), some brain fog, vastly reduced sensitivity (very little to no pleasure from stimulation), and it was nearly impossible to orgasm when with a partner (as I would feel almost nothing, even after weeks of not fapping.) However, my erection quality was excellent the entire time, which allowed me to delude myself into thinking this was not PFS.

Several therapists, and my family, convinced me repeatedly over the years that this couldn’t be PFS (which they didn’t seem to firmly believe in), and so I spent years not getting better. However, I do not believe in worrying about the past.

In February I got all the herbs, did a juice feast, and then started rotating the herbs, and lifting weights 3 days per week (although a couple of weeks it was only 2 workouts per week because I overdid it and didn’t want to train while I had neck muscle soreness. I strained my neck muscles by lifting too heavy sometimes.)

I am making some strength gains, but not much in the way of muscle mass gains so far - I’ll need to eat more. I’ll do monthly tape measurings and fat measurements with calipers, and maybe start weighing myself every day to make sure I keep my weight up. If I’m going to work out, I might as well make some muscle gains, too.

Within just a few days of starting the herbal rotation and workouts, my libido was improving a lot. About 2.5 weeks in, I was able to climax in a reasonable amount of time during sex, but the climaxing pleasure was maybe 1.25/10, up from 1/10.

I hope that my sensitivity and orgasm quality improve over time - we’ll see how that goes. It might take significantly longer for that to start returning.

I get strong morning wood about 3/7 of days now, up from about 1/120 of days (aka about 3 days per year) before, (though I would get weak morning wood once or twice per two weeks.) I get weak morning wood maybe 2/7, and no morning wood about 2/7. I’m so glad that I’m getting morning wood again, even if it’s not every day.

I also feel a bit less foggy, but I’m not 100% at all, and things still feel off a lot of the time.

This will be controversial for some, but I have kept a plant-based (vegan) diet since 2015. It’s been working well for me; my blood markers improved vastly, and I will keep doing it. Your mileage may vary, I’m not telling anyone else to switch their diets. I’m also NOT here to debate veganism, and I’m only (very reluctantly) mentioning this in case a vegan PFS lurker reads this and wants to know if a whole foods plant based diet can be subbed in instead of a paleo diet. I am the first person to ever attempt it, and I’m making progress.

I will post more updates here and there, but not all of my short-term ups and downs need to be mentioned.

I had long stretches of doing raw vegan 80/10/10 style. Muscle mass was impossible to build. Non-raw vegan it was a little bit better because of the massive amount of carbs I had to live on. it's not recommended for a reason. I've been there, done that. Just my fyi and then we'll leave it alone....if you're gonna put all the time and money into the program, you may as well go 100% to get the most bang for your buck. You're looking at an easy year or two recovery time. Maybe put aside any thoughts you have in regards to veganism on hold right now. I mean, as it is, your already not living the way you want, so you may add one more thing to get you back to that place to be whole, then you can always switch back to being Vegan.

Just my two cents. Good luck to you either way.

[LetsGo]

Mid-April Update: 2 months

It’s been about 2 months since I started this journey, and I have made further improvements.

My rotation has 17 of the herbs in it, and I cycle the pine pollen and pine pollen tincture so that they are about 8 days apart.

My libido is up very significantly.

And wow, WOW, my orgasm quality is WAY up. Earlier I said it was 1.5 out of ten, but in retrospect that was 0.25 out of 10. Now it’s easily 6 out of 10. I’d forgotten that it’s that enjoyable, and I have a feeling that this isn’t even close to a full recovery. This is very exciting to me, because I had felt really bad about not being able to enjoy sex, the women would enjoy it immensely (except for not being able to please me, and they’d feel guilty and bad about themselves despite my reassurances) and I’d feel “meh” and generally not be able to come, and if I did, well... I’ve had sneezes that were more deeply satisfying than my PFS orgasms. Literally.

I feel less foggy, but I’m still not 100% on that front. Maybe 65% better?

I’ve gained half an inch on my arm circumference, up to 12.5” flexed (no pump), so I am gaining muscle. I need to make sure I train 3 times per week, I often end up letting other things get in the way and end up with just 2 workouts. My arm size gains are indirect, from bench pressing and other exercises - I will incorporate direct arm training this week.

My shoulders are broader, and my shirt collars are getting less roomy - my neck is getting thicker. Personally, I don’t prefer for my neck to get bigger, but whatever. It’s unavoidable when you lift. If this keeps up I’ll just have to get new collared shirts with 0.5 inch wider necks.

I will start using my Joovv every day in the morning, and that may help me make more progress faster. (It will also make me feel like I got my ~$1,000 worth.) I wasn’t doing it daily in part due to not waking up early enough, and partly because I wanted to see what my progress would be without it. To know if it was progress from he Joovv, or from the other stuff.

I know it’s normal for there to be ups and plateaus in this process, and I did have a plateau for several weeks. I was using a prescription anti-allergy nasal inhaler at night sometimes, but I got suspicious and used breathe rite nasal strips instead, and I’m not sure if the inhaler was interfering with my progress somehow. I’m going to get better pillows and covers to reduce the dust mites since I am allergic to them (all pillows and blankets have millions of mites, no matter how clean you are.)

Overall, I feel significantly better and I’m really looking forward to making further gains. If this is how good I am in 2 months, I wonder what it’ll be like at the 12 month mark? I am sure it won’t take me 2 years to recover fully. Even when I recover, I will do another full order of all the herbs (about 1.5 years worth) just to be sure. And then I’ll still use the herbs that I like the most.

I am grateful that CD put this information out there, instead of keeping it to himself. It’s like when Batman got out of the cave in The Dark Knight Rises - he sends a rope down so everyone else can climb up, because that’s the right thing to do. Sadly though, there are guys down in the PFS cave saying “ignore the rope, scientists are actively researching why we are down in this cave. Someday they will carry us out.” Or... just climb out.

CD, you’re changing lives, including mine. Although I would not have killed myself, I’m sure that you have literally saved lives as well. My quality of life is increasing dramatically month by month, and I’m very excited about the future. Thank you for that.

More updates to come...

[DefRecover]

Awesome work, LetsGo!

Seriously, CD, MaxOut, JackNap, Rick, English, Chi, LetsGo etc - you guys are all rockstars!

Thanks for proving that the protocol works and giving us all hope. Really grateful to have found this place and to (finally) be able to contribute.

Hopefully I will be able to add to the success stories in due course.

[ncsugrad2002]

Awesome story. Very inspiring, thanks for posting!

[Cdsnuts]

Mid-April Update: 2 months

It’s been about 2 months since I started this journey, and I have made further improvements.

My rotation has 17 of the herbs in it, and I cycle the pine pollen and pine pollen tincture so that they are about 8 days apart.

My libido is up very significantly.

And wow, WOW, my orgasm quality is WAY up. Earlier I said it was 1.5 out of ten, but in retrospect that was 0.25 out of 10. Now it’s easily 6 out of 10. I’d forgotten that it’s that enjoyable, and I have a feeling that this isn’t even close to a full recovery. This is very exciting to me, because I had felt really bad about not being able to enjoy sex, the women would enjoy it immensely (except for not being able to please me, and they’d feel guilty and bad about themselves despite my reassurances) and I’d feel “meh” and generally not be able to come, and if I did, well... I’ve had sneezes that were more deeply satisfying than my PFS orgasms. Literally.

I feel less foggy, but I’m still not 100% on that front. Maybe 65% better?

I’ve gained half an inch on my arm circumference, up to 12.5” flexed (no pump), so I am gaining muscle. I need to make sure I train 3 times per week, I often end up letting other things get in the way and end up with just 2 workouts. My arm size gains are indirect, from bench pressing and other exercises - I will incorporate direct arm training this week.

My shoulders are broader, and my shirt collars are getting less roomy - my neck is getting thicker. Personally, I don’t prefer for my neck to get bigger, but whatever. It’s unavoidable when you lift. If this keeps up I’ll just have to get new collared shirts with 0.5 inch wider necks.

I will start using my Joovv every day in the morning, and that may help me make more progress faster. (It will also make me feel like I got my ~$1,000 worth.) I wasn’t doing it daily in part due to not waking up early enough, and partly because I wanted to see what my progress would be without it. To know if it was progress from he Joovv, or from the other stuff.

I know it’s normal for there to be ups and plateaus in this process, and I did have a plateau for several weeks. I was using a prescription anti-allergy nasal inhaler at night sometimes, but I got suspicious and used breathe rite nasal strips instead, and I’m not sure if the inhaler was interfering with my progress somehow. I’m going to get better pillows and covers to reduce the dust mites since I am allergic to them (all pillows and blankets have millions of mites, no matter how clean you are.)

Overall, I feel significantly better and I’m really looking forward to making further gains. If this is how good I am in 2 months, I wonder what it’ll be like at the 12 month mark? I am sure it won’t take me 2 years to recover fully. Even when I recover, I will do another full order of all the herbs (about 1.5 years worth) just to be sure. And then I’ll still use the herbs that I like the most.

I am grateful that CD put this information out there, instead of keeping it to himself. It’s like when Batman got out of the cave in The Dark Knight Rises - he sends a rope down so everyone else can climb up, because that’s the right thing to do. Sadly though, there are guys down in the PFS cave saying “ignore the rope, scientists are actively researching why we are down in this cave. Someday they will carry us out.” Or... just climb out.

CD, you’re changing lives, including mine. Although I would not have killed myself, I’m sure that you have literally saved lives as well. My quality of life is increasing dramatically month by month, and I’m very excited about the future. Thank you for that.

More updates to come...

Good intuition on the nasal spray. Don't use ANY of it. When your bodies sick, you're not sick in the "normal" sense of the word. That is the body in cleansing mode when internal factors become to unstable due to a MYRIAD of reasons. The worst thing you can do in that situation is to surpress the symptoms. You will just end up building and adding to internal toxicity that will grow and eventually turn into a variety of cancers.

Again, the usual remedy is whole body care.

You're going to fly through this. I'm very excited for you because you are going to change in ways that will leave you awe inspired and very satisfied with your self. No better feeling then liking the person you are.

Keep up the good work and definitely keep updating your post. You're going to end up indirectly helping other guys coming in behind you. That is the best gift to give back to the forum.

[LetsGo]

It’s been a month, and another update is in order.

A month before I started everything, I had an ultrasound of my balls (I was hoping my issues were from a varicocele, not pfs, but I had no varicocele,) and they wanted a follow up for about 4 months later because I have a mysterious 1mm shard in one of my balls. It has been there since at least 2012 and has not increased in size, so it’s not cancer, but I wanted to take the follow up appointment to see if my balls had grown.

They did!

My right ball went from 4.6 x 2.0 x 3.0 cm to 4.6 x 2.3 x 3.1 cm, and my smaller left ball went from 4.3 x 2.6 x 1.9 to 4.3 x 2.2 x 3.2 cm. You calculate the volume by multiplying the 3 numbers times 0.72; (you can’t just multiply them, because your balls are not rectangular. The 0.72 accounts for their rounded shape.)

My balls were previously within the normal range, but are now moving towards the high end of the range. My doctors don’t care about this, the ball size was just a side note, but for me it was very interesting. They grew about 25% and 15%!

My epididymis (the sperm producing areas at the top of the balls) has just about DOUBLED in size in each of my testicles. My sperm count must have skyrocketed. I’ll bet my testosterone is back in the normal range now, too. (I did not get it tested.)

This is just 3 months, guys. It’s pretty amazing that my balls are so much bigger. I wouldn’t have noticed any difference just looking at or feeling them, but they’re definitely bigger! So, no wonder I’m feeling so much better now.

I’m getting more and better morning wood. Also, my libido is way, way up. Not just sporadic spikes, it’s more consistently high. I am making an effort to restrain myself though, and to save it for actual sex. I expect that to happen soonish, since I’m starting to date more now.

My sensitivity is continuing to improve as well. It feels way better now. My orgasm quality is not consistently amazing, but it’s consistently good. Every time.

Mood-wise, I am not getting multi day bouts of strong anxiety every few weeks. This is very nice.

My arms are now up to 13.25 inches, up from 12 in February, and my bench (8 reps, 5 sets) is up from 65 to 105 today. I do 10 other sets of other chest exercises on chest day, but that’s just a nice barometer since the bench press is my favorite exercise. My maximum arm size is probably about 16.5 inches. I’m hoping to reach 14.5 by the end of this year. The key is to make myself eat enough, otherwise I seem to stop gaining size.

My shirts are tighter, but not in the gut area (my waist is the same size, or slightly smaller). The necks of my shirts are becoming even more tight and annoying, and I’ve added 0.5 inches to my neck. I’d rather not have a big neck, but it’s inevitable.

I train my legs much less intensely, because my dad has a horrible history of permanent back pain from lifting. It has massively lowered his quality of life, so I’m afraid to squat heavy or deadlift. I don’t want to wind up like him - he wasn’t even lifting crazy heavy weights, his spine just wore down and all his discs were bulging. I share his genetics, so I will let his suffering be my warning.

My legs are thick and muscular just lifting at higher volumes. I only weigh 154 lbs and my thighs rub together; if I add 10 lbs to my legs, the chafing will be insane. My legs are for endurance, not maximum muscle. Of course, I don’t want to have “chicken leg syndrome” with a big upper body and toothpick legs, but I have naturally muscular legs so this will not happen.

IMO, it looks better to have a big chest, shoulders, arms, and back, be thin enough for visible abs (I am 10 to 15 lbs away from this) and have muscular but not big legs.

My shoulders are noticeably wider (I have naturally wide shoulders,) and I’m interested to see how I look by December. At a certain point, I’ll also go on a cut so I can have six pack abs. It’s easier to diet down when you have more muscle; dropping from 143 to 123 was brutal because I had to live on 1300 calories per day. Dropping from 165 (with muscle) to 150 or whatnot will be fine, because I’ll be able to eat reasonable amounts of food while cutting.

I want to wake up earlier and use my $900 Joovv every day, I haven’t touched it in like 10 - 12 weeks. Maybe it could kick my progress into high gear (although, I’m already progressing at a rate that I’m very happy with.)

So that’s my update! I feel almost reborn, and it’s exciting. I have to put more effort into my business so I can break away from needing a day job. That, plus this stuff, will be absolutely life-transforming :)

[LetsGo]

It’s time for June’s monthly update.

I’ve had a setback, or a plateau, or something. Although I don’t feel like I did before I started doing all this, I don’t feel great - just okay. It’s been like this for a solid 2 weeks at least.

As I think of it, there are a couple of things that I did that might have caused this:
1) I started slacking off with my training - not going as hard as before, and only training once or twice per week instead of three times per week.
2) I had two beers on a date, about 1 week ago.
3) I was routinely fapping.

I think the downturn may have hit harder when I had those two beers, but it seems weird that that could cause a setback. I hadn’t had any alcohol (except what’s in the drops of pine pollen tincture, etc) since February, when I started this. If I need to keep not drinking, that’s fine, although it will be somewhat annoying when it comes to dates.

I have okay libido, but it’s not as robust as before. Also, sensation is not as great as it was 3 - 4 weeks ago. I need to NoFap again, and just wait until I have another girlfriend.

I think it’s important to keep tracking my ups and downs. I’m hoping that within a few weeks I will have another upswing. It’s very bit de-motivating, but I know there have been guys who made barely any progress for months, whereas I made strong progress right out of the gate and figured I’d be fully done in 6 months. This is the 5 month mark, so I’m guessing it will likely take at least 12 months to be fully healed.

I also moved the goji berry powder from the rotation, to a smoothie additive. And I got black maca powder, though I haven’t used it yet.

I’m not sure whether this is a “natural” setback, or if it’s due to me having those two beers… or what’s going on.

That’s all for this update. I’ll aim to check in around mid-July.

Edit: I forgot to add this - my muscle gains have slowed down because I’ve started losing weight on purpose. I had gained 10 lbs since starting this, and a good chunk of that is muscle (my waistline did not get much bigger, maybe 1 inch), but I hate seeing the scale go up. I could probably have visible abs if I lost another 20 lbs, maybe 30 lbs? I don’t look fat at all, but even “normal” weight people have A LOT more fat than they realize. If you don’t have visible abs, you have a bunch of body fat.

Anyway, around the time of this plateaue, I had started cutting my calories, and since then I've lost about 5 lbs, so I'm down to 152 lbs. I have not lost any muscle size, because I’m still working out - but I’m also not really gaining any muscle. I was 147 lbs when I started, and I wanted to get back to that, or even 142 lbs, and then bulk again. I’m wondering if the healing only happens when I’m adding muscle? Maybe I should try slowly bulking, at a rate where hopefully I *only* gain muscle, and not fat, and see if that ends the plateau. Then once I’m fully recovered, I can do a cut, lean out, and have visible abs with decent muscles.

If gaining muscle breaks me out of this blah period, that may suggest that my theory may be correct (at least for my body.)

[LetsGo]

I’m feeling pretty depressed now. I don’t know why the progress I had made initially over several months seems to have mostly disappeared.

My libido is way down; I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I’ll try not fapping, which is going to be incredibly easy.

I was prepared for some ups and downs, but this down period has lasted well over a month. I will keep doing what I’m doing but I don’t feel at all motivated or hopeful anymore.

[Cdsnuts]

I’m feeling pretty depressed now. I don’t know why the progress I had made initially over several months seems to have mostly disappeared.

My libido is way down; I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I’ll try not fapping, which is going to be incredibly easy.

I was prepared for some ups and downs, but this down period has lasted well over a month. I will keep doing what I’m doing but I don’t feel at all motivated or hopeful anymore.

Always darkest before the dawn. You may be mustering up for a nice upswing. This is typically the pattern I've noticed. Some downswings are so bad and they bring you to the brink.....this is where alot of guys get nervous and sabotage themselves where if they would have just held on a bit longer, they would have been rewarded with a shiny new level of being.

Keep at it.

[LetsGo]

Always darkest before the dawn. You may be mustering up for a nice upswing. This is typically the pattern I've noticed. Some downswings are so bad and they bring you to the brink.....this is where alot of guys get nervous and sabotage themselves where if they would have just held on a bit longer, they would have been rewarded with a shiny new level of being.

Keep at it.

Thanks! I will definitely keep going with everything. I have to muscle through it and things should get better over time.

The downswings can be awful and make you question everything. Fortunately I have my routine, so I can just keep doing what I need to do very easily.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks! I will definitely keep going with everything. I have to muscle through it and things should get better over time.

The downswings can be awful and make you question everything. Fortunately I have my routine, so I can just keep doing what I need to do very easily.

That's it.

The simple, most difficult thing you'll ever do.

Well worth the effort.

And yes, they do make you question EVERYTHING. This is where most guys get into trouble. Stay the course and you'll be fine.

[LetsGo]

Time for the next update…

My arms are close to 14” now, up from 12” when I started. With a pump they’re 14”, but right now it’s about 13.75”. My gym is closing at the end of August so I’m thinking of just cancelling this weekend and joining another gym that is cheaper, also not crowded, nicer, and a 5 minute walk from where I live. But I also feel like that would be “admitting defeat” in terms of my job search. I don’t want to be doubling down on my commitments to living in this place - but that’s not really rational. I should probably join this other gym. Also, I need to do more in terms of training legs. I don’t ever want big big legs, and I fear lower back injuries, which ruined my dad’s quality of life. So I may go higher rep, lower weights in that area, and I think I’ll still gain some leg mass but only a small amount, which suits me fine. I have naturally big legs, and I don’t see the point of trying to have huge legs. I just want to avoid the “muscular upper body, completely untrained lower body” phenomenon, which looks bad. It will be a lot more convenient to train when it’s only 5 minutes away.

Around 2 weeks ago, I did have a nice upswing. I then had a bit of a downswing again - I’ve just been in very bad moods lately because of non-PFS things. I’m stuck living in a small city that I don’t like, working a crappy job way below my skill and education level, while sending out applications. Although it’s been over a week since I sent any. I had a promising phone interview in the city I’m looking to move back to, and it would be double my current salary. But I found out they have a hiring freeze, and even if I make it to and pass the next 2 rounds of interviews, it would take me “a few months” (like 3 - 5) to get hired. I’m so sick of waiting though. I’m obviously going to keep applying elsewhere.

He Sho Wu seems to be, at least for me, a stimulant that can destroy my sleep if taken too late. I’m insanely sensitive to stimulants, to the point where a cup of coffee at 9 AM = I can’t get to sleep until 2 AM. The He Sho Wu, when I take the second dose in the early evening, keeps me up until literally 4 - 5 AM. This happened a few times in a row, so it’s basically confirmed - looking at my sleep log, I would always get awful sleep when that herb comes up in the rotation. So I'll have to make sure I only ever take it in the morning. Maybe just take the full amount at once, in the morning, instead of two separate doses, and see if it still keeps me up. I can’t ruin my sleep every ~2 weeks.

I had several days of horrible sleep in the last few days, and my mood was in the absolute gutter, to the point where my family was/is extremely worried about me. I can only really bounce back from one sub-3 hours of sleep night. If it happens multiple times in a short period, things become horrible and my whole personality is completely different. I could never have been a Navy SEAL (not that I’d want to) - all the sleep deprivation stuff that they do sounds awful. (I’m sure there are other reasons why I wouldn’t make it as a SEAL; my unwillingness to join the Navy would have been a sticking point.)

But anyway, on these downswings, things are still better than they were before I started everything.

I’m going to take some new photos for my dating site stuff this weekend. I have an extremely high-end lens for portraits, and I know how to use it, so there’s that. I hate being almost 36 and single. I want to have a family someday so I feel like I’m under the gun - obviously I’ll be dating women who are younger than me and thankfully it seems like women 25 - 29 are still into me. I don’t get why anyone would want to be with someone significantly older than them. When I was 25, I could date 22 - 28, now I feel like I have a smaller dating pool because I’m not going to date someone around my age. If I’m with someone for a few years and it doesn’t work out, I don’t have as many years left to play with - if you’re 25 you can do a few 2 - 3 year relationships and you have more chances to hit on the right one. I’m just very anxious about that, and I’ll be crushed if all my mistakes lead to me never getting to have a family. On the other hand, I also don’t want to wind up in a bad relationship + having kids with someone who isn’t good for me. These things keep me up at night.

My major focus now is in finding a job in the city where I want to live, and also continuing to work on my business projects. I want to move YESTERDAY, so it’s unbearable staying here, not knowing how long it will take to get something new. I hope it only takes a couple of months and that it doesn’t drag into 2020... And it's incredibly hard when I feel exhausted and miserable, but hopefully I will feel a lot better when I get more sleep. It’s torture for me to live in this small city where I’m very unhappy. Gotta focus on the positive, I suppose. And I should put more effort into dating where I live now, knowing that it will be short-term.

[Cdsnuts]

Time for the next update…

My arms are close to 14” now, up from 12” when I started. With a pump they’re 14”, but right now it’s about 13.75”. My gym is closing at the end of August so I’m thinking of just cancelling this weekend and joining another gym that is cheaper, also not crowded, nicer, and a 5 minute walk from where I live. But I also feel like that would be “admitting defeat” in terms of my job search. I don’t want to be doubling down on my commitments to living in this place - but that’s not really rational. I should probably join this other gym. Also, I need to do more in terms of training legs. I don’t ever want big big legs, and I fear lower back injuries, which ruined my dad’s quality of life. So I may go higher rep, lower weights in that area, and I think I’ll still gain some leg mass but only a small amount, which suits me fine. I have naturally big legs, and I don’t see the point of trying to have huge legs. I just want to avoid the “muscular upper body, completely untrained lower body” phenomenon, which looks bad. It will be a lot more convenient to train when it’s only 5 minutes away.

Around 2 weeks ago, I did have a nice upswing. I then had a bit of a downswing again - I’ve just been in very bad moods lately because of non-PFS things. I’m stuck living in a small city that I don’t like, working a crappy job way below my skill and education level, while sending out applications. Although it’s been over a week since I sent any. I had a promising phone interview in the city I’m looking to move back to, and it would be double my current salary. But I found out they have a hiring freeze, and even if I make it to and pass the next 2 rounds of interviews, it would take me “a few months” (like 3 - 5) to get hired. I’m so sick of waiting though. I’m obviously going to keep applying elsewhere.

He Sho Wu seems to be, at least for me, a stimulant that can destroy my sleep if taken too late. I’m insanely sensitive to stimulants, to the point where a cup of coffee at 9 AM = I can’t get to sleep until 2 AM. The He Sho Wu, when I take the second dose in the early evening, keeps me up until literally 4 - 5 AM. This happened a few times in a row, so it’s basically confirmed - looking at my sleep log, I would always get awful sleep when that herb comes up in the rotation. So I'll have to make sure I only ever take it in the morning. Maybe just take the full amount at once, in the morning, instead of two separate doses, and see if it still keeps me up. I can’t ruin my sleep every ~2 weeks.

I had several days of horrible sleep in the last few days, and my mood was in the absolute gutter, to the point where my family was/is extremely worried about me. I can only really bounce back from one sub-3 hours of sleep night. If it happens multiple times in a short period, things become horrible and my whole personality is completely different. I could never have been a Navy SEAL (not that I’d want to) - all the sleep deprivation stuff that they do sounds awful. (I’m sure there are other reasons why I wouldn’t make it as a SEAL; my unwillingness to join the Navy would have been a sticking point.)

But anyway, on these downswings, things are still better than they were before I started everything.

I’m going to take some new photos for my dating site stuff this weekend. I have an extremely high-end lens for portraits, and I know how to use it, so there’s that. I hate being almost 36 and single. I want to have a family someday so I feel like I’m under the gun - obviously I’ll be dating women who are younger than me and thankfully it seems like women 25 - 29 are still into me. I don’t get why anyone would want to be with someone significantly older than them. When I was 25, I could date 22 - 28, now I feel like I have a smaller dating pool because I’m not going to date someone around my age. If I’m with someone for a few years and it doesn’t work out, I don’t have as many years left to play with - if you’re 25 you can do a few 2 - 3 year relationships and you have more chances to hit on the right one. I’m just very anxious about that, and I’ll be crushed if all my mistakes lead to me never getting to have a family. On the other hand, I also don’t want to wind up in a bad relationship + having kids with someone who isn’t good for me. These things keep me up at night.

My major focus now is in finding a job in the city where I want to live, and also continuing to work on my business projects. I want to move YESTERDAY, so it’s unbearable staying here, not knowing how long it will take to get something new. I hope it only takes a couple of months and that it doesn’t drag into 2020... And it's incredibly hard when I feel exhausted and miserable, but hopefully I will feel a lot better when I get more sleep. It’s torture for me to live in this small city where I’m very unhappy. Gotta focus on the positive, I suppose. And I should put more effort into dating where I live now, knowing that it will be short-term.

Don't focus on what you don't want....ironically, this ends up giving it energy. Focus on what you WANT only. Stay present at all times....try to anyway. Nothing good comes from getting stuck in your head and ignoring the now. The now is where EVERYTHING happens, so stay there, present, all the time. Things will start to change your way. Just get up and live everyday the best you can, and things will start to SLOWLY get better. You're in this for the long game, it's the only way.

Stop thinking about the what ifs.....they don't exist now, only in your head. Focus on here and now. The good things you want will naturally make their way into your life should you stay present and focused.

[Bankai9000]

Don't focus on what you don't want....ironically, this ends up giving it energy. Focus on what you WANT only. Stay present at all times....try to anyway. Nothing good comes from getting stuck in your head and ignoring the now. The now is where EVERYTHING happens, so stay there, present, all the time. Things will start to change your way. Just get up and live everyday the best you can, and things will start to SLOWLY get better. You're in this for the long game, it's the only way.

Stop thinking about the what ifs.....they don't exist now, only in your head. Focus on here and now. The good things you want will naturally make their way into your life should you stay present and focused.

Needed this CD, thanks man!

[LetsGo]

Don't focus on what you don't want....ironically, this ends up giving it energy. Focus on what you WANT only. Stay present at all times....try to anyway. Nothing good comes from getting stuck in your head and ignoring the now. The now is where EVERYTHING happens, so stay there, present, all the time. Things will start to change your way. Just get up and live everyday the best you can, and things will start to SLOWLY get better. You're in this for the long game, it's the only way.

Stop thinking about the what ifs.....they don't exist now, only in your head. Focus on here and now. The good things you want will naturally make their way into your life should you stay present and focused.

That's very good advice. I think I usually only think about the past and future, but obviously the only thing we can really control is what we do right now. Staying in the present is extremely important and that’s something I’ll need to work on.

I wil have to hustle a lot outside of work, sending out lots of applications, and I’m hoping that I can find something new and better in NYC sometime this year. I guess all I can do is try very hard and hopefully it will work eventually.

My sleep is pretty bad though, I need to work on that. Everything is so much more difficult when I’m exhausted.

[jacknap]

Needed this CD, thanks man!

one mentality I kept repeating even when I didn't have belief is that '6month - 2 years will come whether I like it or not so I gotta give the protocol a full shot' and you know what it worked :)

saturate yourself with as much positivity as possible. one day the moments of struggle with strike you as most beautiful in a way

[Cdsnuts]

one mentality I kept repeating even when I didn't have belief is that '6month - 2 years will come whether I like it or not so I gotta give the protocol a full shot' and you know what it worked :)

saturate yourself with as much positivity as possible. one day the moments of struggle with strike you as most beautiful in a way

Good way to put it Jacknap, and I completely agree. It just hits you one day that your struggle was WELL worth it. It can be a very emotional experience. When this happens, and it will for everyone who stays the course, it solidifies that fact that you will not only be recovered, but You'll be much better then simply recovered.

[LetsGo]

So I’m a bit overdue for my update.

Things have been up and down, although my sleep has been pretty bad. I need to improve that a lot, and I think it will help me in many different ways. My apartment is a mess with tons of boxes everywhere - I really need to throw away the empty boxes and organize my things. I turn 36 this weekend, ugh.

I slept with a woman the other day, but I don’t think I want to see her again. She was fairly insistent on me not using a condom, but I was insistent that I did, so I did.

Anyway, I wasn’t into her, and I felt very disconnected from it all. I had the same performance that I have traditionally had - lasting an insane 90+ minutes while not really feeling any pleasure, and her being amazed and thinking it’s the best thing ever. I know it was that long because we had started watching the movie Idiocracy and moved to the bdroom around the scene where the protagonist goes to the “doctor” who freaks out that he doesn’t have a bar code tattoo, and it lasted beyond the end of the movie, and through 2 episodes of Rick & Morty that autoplayed in the background. Maybe it was closer to 2 hours? But anyway, it wasn’t pleasurable for me, and she tried to persuade me to stay over which was definitely not happening. I knew I wasn’t really into her - wasn’t into her body type - also, she is separated (but lives alone), so I really shouldn’t have slept with her. She said she wasn’t looking for anything serious so I don’t think she’ll be too upset.

There have been other times since starting this journey, where I was able to come in a normal amount of time, and one time actually, too quickly. The (almost pleasureless) premature ejaculation was around a few weeks or a month after I first started all this, during an upswing. There have been lots of times when I had full upswings, and I felt the full and normal amount of pleasure when I was by myself - this almost never happened until I started doing the program stuff (except for a few times on or right after vacations.) It was mind-blowing and made me see that eventually it will be like that all the time again.

I have ups and downs - although, tbh, I had been fapping almost daily (probably 11 of 14 days) leading up to that date and it seems like after a certain number of days of that, it has a very large negative effect. I was in a depleted and less sensitive state from overstimulating myself, I guess. I think that that is having a big negative impact on my overall progress, so I still need to fix that in addition to everything else I’m juggling. The other huge thing is sleep - I feel foggy (as I did on the date) when I get less than 7 hours of sleep per night. Ideally I should be getting around 8 hours, and I think that would help me make progress faster.

If I did everything great, 8 hours of sleep per night, not fapping, and if I started hitting the gym 6 days per week, I would probably heal in like 6 more months. I’m guessing it will take 2 or 3 times as long if I am less disciplined. Sometimes I feel like I’m not really making progress at all, but I know that I will get there eventually. It would also help a lot if I was with someone I cared about and was attracted to and into.

My gym closed at the end of August, and it took me over a week to sign up for a new gym and start going there. This gym is half the price of my old gym, has more and newer equipment, and is a very short walk from my apartment, right by the office where I work. But there were still about 2 weeks where I didn’t go to the gym at all, and that’s not good. I didn’t lose any muscular size, but I shouldn’t slack off.

I’ve been focusing a lot on trying to get a new job to move back to the city I want to live in, and my business stuff. I’m not going to view this recent encounter as a big setback, but it was disappointing.

That’s the update for now; I will provide another update when I feel like it, maybe later this month or maybe next month.

[LetsGo]

I’ve been back in the gym, three times per week, and I’m getting that routine back. I may add a 4th workout this weekend. I have the time.

Another big thing occurred to me - I’ve been taking Omega 3 capsules every day this whole time. I read that Omega 3 may reduce testosterone and somewhat block DHT! So I’m going to stop taking it until I’m fully healed (plus a bit longer.) I will keep taking my Vitamin D, though.

Anyway, no major updates other than that. I’ve been getting better sleep the last few days, and I think that that’s crucial.

[LetsGo]

I visited my friend in NYC last weekend, and unfortunately I drank. I never got drunk, but since Monday I’ve had zero libido and feel completely asexual. (Although I had lots of libido on Saturday and Sunday.) I’ve also only been getting 15 - 30 minutes of “deep sleep” per night this week (90+ is normal,) so even when I slept 10 hours I woke up feeling exhausted. I’ve also started feeling down in the dumps lately, even though I should be happy.

I feel like my symptoms haven’t been improving the last few months, and I haven’t gained much new muscle mass. I can finally bench 135 lbs for 5 sets of 8 reps each; back in February, I struggled with 65 lbs.

I also realized I probably made a huge mistake in neglecting to train my legs as much as I should. If the hormonal benefits are proportional to the amount of muscle involved, then legs are probably the most important body part. Looks-wise, I don’t care about having big legs, and I worry about back injuries. Maybe I will start with body weight squats at home and work up from there.

I have been getting PRP hair injections for the last few months. It’s my own blood plasma, so it wouldn’t affect DHT, but I probably shouldn’t still care about my hair. I have minimal hair loss, but for some reason it bothers me.

I think I’ll feel better soon, hopefully tonight I’ll get lots of deep sleep.

[RickTheRuler]

you guys need to let a brother know when your in the city mannnnnn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Benq123]

I visited my friend in NYC last weekend, and unfortunately I drank. I never got drunk, but since Monday I’ve had zero libido and feel completely asexual. (Although I had lots of libido on Saturday and Sunday.) I’ve also only been getting 15 - 30 minutes of “deep sleep” per night this week (90+ is normal,) so even when I slept 10 hours I woke up feeling exhausted. I’ve also started feeling down in the dumps lately, even though I should be happy.

I feel like my symptoms haven’t been improving the last few months, and I haven’t gained much new muscle mass. I can finally bench 135 lbs for 5 sets of 8 reps each; back in February, I struggled with 65 lbs.

I also realized I probably made a huge mistake in neglecting to train my legs as much as I should. If the hormonal benefits are proportional to the amount of muscle involved, then legs are probably the most important body part. Looks-wise, I don’t care about having big legs, and I worry about back injuries. Maybe I will start with body weight squats at home and work up from there.

I have been getting PRP hair injections for the last few months. It’s my own blood plasma, so it wouldn’t affect DHT, but I probably shouldn’t still care about my hair. I have minimal hair loss, but for some reason it bothers me.

I think I’ll feel better soon, hopefully tonight I’ll get lots of deep sleep.

Could try Zercher squats, you won't be able to lift anywhere near as much as with back squats so chance of a back injury is way lower (as long as you get your firm down) just start very light and very slowly build up, they are so tough but I enjoy them, a real full body primal movement that will get a great hormonal response. Oh and don't listen to the nonsense going around that you have to squat ass to grass, we don't all have the hip structure to safely do that without rounding the lower back, just squat to where you can keep your lower back neutral.
For the posterior chain, you could try single leg deadlifts, hard movement but because you won't be able to lift much with it because you're focusing on balance, way less chance of injuring your back. Or Nordic leg curl, glute ham raise, sliding leg curl, tonnes of options with next to no stress on the spine.

[LetsGo]

you guys need to let a brother know when your in the city mannnnnn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m hoping to move back to NYC in the next few months, I will let you know when I’m here, it would be cool to say hi in person!

[LetsGo]

Could try Zercher squats, you won't be able to lift anywhere near as much as with back squats so chance of a back injury is way lower (as long as you get your firm down) just start very light and very slowly build up, they are so tough but I enjoy them, a real full body primal movement that will get a great hormonal response. Oh and don't listen to the nonsense going around that you have to squat ass to grass, we don't all have the hip structure to safely do that without rounding the lower back, just squat to where you can keep your lower back neutral.
For the posterior chain, you could try single leg deadlifts, hard movement but because you won't be able to lift much with it because you're focusing on balance, way less chance of injuring your back. Or Nordic leg curl, glute ham raise, sliding leg curl, tonnes of options with next to no stress on the spine.

Thanks for the advice; I had to look up what Zercher squats are, and it looks like it wouldn’t compress my spine so I would be good to go with that. Like you said, proper form is everything.

I also agree that you don’t have to squat all the way to the ground. I’m definitely on the short side (5’5”) so I’m not sure if that would play a role one way or the other.

And thanks for all the other spine-friendly recommendations too, this was very helpful and I will check all of that out.

[LetsGo]

I have mono. The rapid test is only 75% accurate, so I’m getting the full lab test to confirm it.

I thought it was tonsillitis at first, but it lasted over a week and I had no appetite and not much energy (not as severe as when I have the flu, though.)

The woman I was with in September, I remember her telling me she had had mono a few months ago. I had no idea she could still be contagious, but if I have mono, that’s how I got it.

It’s extremely unpleasant. I have very little energy and it’s a chore to walk across the room. For many days, every time I swallowed my saliva, it was like a lump of concrete. For several days, I did not eat because I had no appetite. My appetite has slowly come back, and I’m having lentil soup and stuff that’s easy to eat.

Part of mono is having an enlarged spleen, and if it ruptures you can die. And even if you live, having no spleen means you will get sick much more often, for life. So I can’t take the risk of rupturing my spleen. If I have mono, that means I can’t lift until it has shrunk. (It could rupture while you’re straining during a lift.)

I’m not sure if I should continue the herbs even if I can’t lift?

I will get the official mono confirmation when I see my regular doctor. I just feel like this is a huge setback for me. :(

[LetsGo]

I’m almost fully recovered from my mono, but I need to give it until after Thanksgiving for my spleen to go back to normal size. My doctor wanted me to stay out of the gym until then, because I could rupture it while it’s enlarged and that would be Very Bad.

In the meantime, I’ve gotten very rigorous about avoiding all gluten, and a weird thing happened after about two weeks - the morning wood is consistently back! This is without the t-boosting herbs or working out. Wow.

I read an article on pubmet about reversible androgen resistence being caused by gluten, at least for people with celiac disease, but I suppose there’s a lesser version that affects a lot of other people. I’ll have to go without gluten until I’m fully recovered. But, it’ll be interesting to see how I do when I’m back in the gym and on the t-boosting herbs - hopefully amazing. Especially since I’ll be doing 4 workouts per week, of 15 sets / 8 reps each.

I’m not really sure if it was wise to take a break from the herbal rotation, but I figured that if I wasn’t working out then the herbs wouldn’t be worth it. Not sure if I should jump back on them in the meantime.

But anyway, going strictly gluten-free makes a significant difference. I’d like to get more consistently early sleep, and to use the Joov every day, I think that that would help.

[Cdsnuts]

I’m almost fully recovered from my mono, but I need to give it until after Thanksgiving for my spleen to go back to normal size. My doctor wanted me to stay out of the gym until then, because I could rupture it while it’s enlarged and that would be Very Bad.

In the meantime, I’ve gotten very rigorous about avoiding all gluten, and a weird thing happened after about two weeks - the morning wood is consistently back! This is without the t-boosting herbs or working out. Wow.

I read an article on pubmet about reversible androgen resistence being caused by gluten, at least for people with celiac disease, but I suppose there’s a lesser version that affects a lot of other people. I’ll have to go without gluten until I’m fully recovered. But, it’ll be interesting to see how I do when I’m back in the gym and on the t-boosting herbs - hopefully amazing. Especially since I’ll be doing 4 workouts per week, of 15 sets / 8 reps each.

I’m not really sure if it was wise to take a break from the herbal rotation, but I figured that if I wasn’t working out then the herbs wouldn’t be worth it. Not sure if I should jump back on them in the meantime.

But anyway, going strictly gluten-free makes a significant difference. I’d like to get more consistently early sleep, and to use the Joov every day, I think that that would help.

Wrong on the herbs. The main reason you take them is to help with rebuilding a healthy hormone panel, working out or not. Working out simply speeds up this process but to not take them at all is doing yourself a huge disservice in the long run.

[LetsGo]

I started using the herbs again every day about a month ago, per CDsnuts’s recommendation. I’ve been going to the gym 4 days per week, 15 hard sets of 8 to 12 reps, with strict form. I’ve noticed a huge positive difference in how I feel, libido, etc. I had a huge upsing for awhile, which seems to have subsided, but not completely. I may consider going to the gym 5 or even 6 days per week. If I didn’t have to have a job, I would have no problem doing two workouts per day.

Going gluten-free is an enormous difference-maker for me when it comes to morning wood. This is the first time I’ve very consistently had MW since starting this journey. It’s weird, because sometimes I’ll have a slip-up - “Oh, Starbucks’ oatmeal is probably gluten-free, right?” (no, it isn’t) and then I won’t get MW the next day. The initial “detox” from gluten took a solid 2 weeks to see any effects, but thankfully it doesn’t fully reset from just one mild accidental exposure.

Overall, I need to do a better job with my sleep, I’m averaging 5 to 6 hours per night lately and I need that to be around 8 hours per night. But I don’t feel exhausted in the morning like I used to. I also used to start feeling depressed if I had a few days in a row of 5 to 6 hours of sleep, but that’s not happening anymore (maybe due to higher hormone levels.) I still feel tired in the morning because I’m under-sleeping, but I still have morning wood ~90% of the time, and I don’t have to drag myself out of bed. I’ll do much better when I get the proper amount of sleep.

I also need to eat more. It would be okay to put on maybe 3 lbs per month (I don’t want to gain too much fat along with the muscle) because eating at maintenance level is not going to help me put on size. If I’m going to be working out, I might as well make the most of it.

The bodybuilder and fitness YouTuber Rich Piana (RIP) was a huge proponent of feeder workouts, which are daily high-volume, low weight exercises on whatever body part you want to bring up. (This is in addition to your normal workouts.) I’m thinking of doing feeders every day for my shoulders, but when I do them right before bed (as Rich recommended) it gives me insomnia. I can’t sleep right after I work out. The 7 lbs dumbbells are way too heavy for me to do 3 sets of 100 side lateral raises - I can’t even do that with no weights! So I’m going to work my way up to 100 reps with no weights, and then get 2 lbs dumbbells, etc.

I had a good job interview, and if I get the job I’ll be back in NYC, which would be amazing.

Anyway, I will check in again sometime in mid to late January.

[LetsGo]

I’ve been feeling great lately. My libido is way up (though not pre-fin,) my sensitivity and orgasm quality are way up, and I’m having somewhat consistent MW.

I’m up to about 158 lbs, and should probably start tracking my meals with MyFitnessPal so I can gain 3 lbs per month. That should boost my progress, though once I hit about 165 lbs I’m probably going to have to cut some fat.

My shoulders are getting big because 10 of my 15 shoulder sets are super-sets, but I want to make even more progress there. My jeans and pants are getting tighter as my legs continue to grow. I’m sure I’ll wear out my pants faster now, but that’s okay.

I’m thinking about adding a 5th weightlifting day to my regimen, where I would just do arms; probably skullcrushers, preacher curls, and tricep extensions. My arms are up to 14” now (flexed) up from 12” when I started, but I have not specifically trained my arms. If I could get them up to 15.25” or so by the end of the year, that would be nice. When I have 16.25” arms, I think that’ll be pretty close to my genetic maximum. For someone who is kind of short like me, 16” arms would look pretty decent.

I’ll check back in in mid to late February.

[angelo212]

Subbed

[Cdsnuts]

It's a good thing that you're feeling good, but just try not to over do it. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Slow and steady progress is better then risking going too hard and back sliding.

[LetsGo]

Symptom-wise, I have been doing great since my last post. I’ve had morning wood about 90-95% of the time when I wake up, compared to about 0% of the time before I started this journey. This is huge for me, emotionally, because that was one of my most bothersome symptoms - I hated waking up every morning feeling like an old man, exhausted, never having MW, and therapists telling me that this was normal in your late 20s and 30s. (Complete bullshit.) My libido is up, but it's not like pre-fin yet. Sensitivity is okay-ish, but not consistently great. I feel more masculine, less tired, and more motivated, but I struggle with procrastination in all aspects of life outside of this program (like finding a better job, and being consistent on my side-business work.) I need to make my other tasks as automatic and routine as going to the gym.

For those following, I can’t overstate how important it is to abstain from gluten and alcohol. It’s just as important as the herbs and workouts. The other elements are also important, but I started improving much faster when I took gluten seriously and expanded my workouts to the recommended 15 sets.

I also replaced my plastic shower curtains with polyester ones, and I started using natural laundry detergent as well. I feel like this coincided with my faster improvement.

I haven’t used my Joov in months, unfortunately. I’m such a night owl, but I should at least try to do it on the weekend mornings.

I have not done any prohormone cycles. It has always been said that this is optional, but the main reason I haven’t is that I’ve just been lazy about acquring them.

During PFS, my hair loss almost completely stopped, but now it has restarted. In another year or two, or sooner, I will need to switch to a short haircut. If I can get used to seeing myself with shorter hair, and I will, it’ll be fine. Oviously I will never take any anti-DHT drugs again. I think it could be an additional sign that my DHT receptors are starting to work better than they used to. I don’t remember what the consensus was on PH, whether their hair loss stopped during PFS, and I don’t want to go back there to check. I’m just noting this because it’s a physical change, not because I’m worried about my hair.

My arms are about 14.15” now, which is significant, considering I’ve been working out for a year. It’s important to eat enough; as you grow, you need to increase your calories to keep growing. My upper-upper arms are considerably bigger (over 15”), because of my intense shoulder workouts, but that also makes my biceps look smaller. I’m “only” lifting about 208 days per year on this schedule, but it would be nearly 300 if I did the classic “4 days on, 1 day off” bodybuilder split. I think that that would lead to more muscle growth, but I wouldn’t want to risk potentially backsliding, as CD said. Also, for routine’s sake, I like doing certain things on certain days, and I like having the weekends off.

But just for fun:
Lifting 4 days per week = 208 workouts per year.
Lifting 5 days per week = 260 workouts per year.
Doing the “classic bodybuilder split" (4 on, 1 off) = 292 per year.
Doing the Arnold Split (6 on, 1 off, 2 workouts per day) = 312 workout days per year. 624 total workouts per year.

I’m sticking with 4 days per week, though when it’s time to cut some fat I will incorporate more cardio on non-lifting days, and add some on lifting days. I don’t want it to take like 4 months to drop 20 lbs, but I also don’t want to lose muscle when I’m cutting.

Anyway, that’s all for now. I will check back in in 3 to 6 weeks, aiming for about 4 weeks.

[LetsGo]

It’s been about twice as long as normal since my last update, because of the shutdown. My gym is closed, and my home workouts are vastly inferior to what I was able to do in the gym. The routine of going right after work was also very helpful.

I’ve noticed that in the last 3 or so weeks, my libido has been way up. Not back to pre-fin, but closer. I was a lot younger pre-fin, so who knows if I’ll actually be able to get back to that level, ever, but we’ll see. At my oldest pre-fin age, 26, I would feel a huge amount of urgency after 1 or 2 days of abstinance - to the point where it was incredibly distracting. I have felt the old libido come back a few times on vacations, and randomly during the protocol, but only for about a week at a time. So, maybe I do still have that in me? I hope I have something at least vaguely close to it. I feel like things are moving in that direction.

I wake up with morning wood most days now, and I can’t even tell you how happy that makes me. I feel like a man again. It’s usually not 10/10, but at least a solid 7 or 8 / 10.

My ability to feel an orgasm has improved a bit from baseline, but it's still far from normal the vast majority of the time. That was my worst side effect, and it’s still the biggest area where I need improvement.

I bought the prohormones, and I’m eager to start using them (which I should have way earlier) but with my workouts not being very effective, I feel like I shouldn’t. I feel like I’m supposed to have a more normal, more intense workout regimine in place for about 2 months before using them, and I’m not sure if using them now would be a mistake. On the other hand, I don’t know when the gyms are going to reopen, and I want to get going with it.

I’m gearing up to leave my job in July or August, to finally open my bankruptcy law firm. (I have been doing volunteer cases, so I know what I’m doing.) My current job is way below my skill levels, and pays way less than what I deserve to earn. I didn’t graduate law school to be working with high school grads, earning a third or a quarter of what my former classmates earn. Oh well, life happens.

Some of my law school classmates are dead. Several of my high school classmates didn’t make it to 30. My poor first girlfriend didn’t even make it to 28! (Boat accident with her uncle in Florida.) It could be a lot worse. And I had to deal with a lot of struggles (not just PFS) that the people I unfairly compare myself to did not have to deal with. George Foreman has said “If it ain’t positive, I didn’t hear it,” and that’s my mantra right now. Good things are on the way.

[Cdsnuts]

It’s been about twice as long as normal since my last update, because of the shutdown. My gym is closed, and my home workouts are vastly inferior to what I was able to do in the gym. The routine of going right after work was also very helpful.

I’ve noticed that in the last 3 or so weeks, my libido has been way up. Not back to pre-fin, but closer. I was a lot younger pre-fin, so who knows if I’ll actually be able to get back to that level, ever, but we’ll see. At my oldest pre-fin age, 26, I would feel a huge amount of urgency after 1 or 2 days of abstinance - to the point where it was incredibly distracting. I have felt the old libido come back a few times on vacations, and randomly during the protocol, but only for about a week at a time. So, maybe I do still have that in me? I hope I have something at least vaguely close to it. I feel like things are moving in that direction.

I wake up with morning wood most days now, and I can’t even tell you how happy that makes me. I feel like a man again. It’s usually not 10/10, but at least a solid 7 or 8 / 10.

My ability to feel an orgasm has improved a bit from baseline, but it's still far from normal the vast majority of the time. That was my worst side effect, and it’s still the biggest area where I need improvement.

I bought the prohormones, and I’m eager to start using them (which I should have way earlier) but with my workouts not being very effective, I feel like I shouldn’t. I feel like I’m supposed to have a more normal, more intense workout regimine in place for about 2 months before using them, and I’m not sure if using them now would be a mistake. On the other hand, I don’t know when the gyms are going to reopen, and I want to get going with it.

I’m gearing up to leave my job in July or August, to finally open my bankruptcy law firm. (I have been doing volunteer cases, so I know what I’m doing.) My current job is way below my skill levels, and pays way less than what I deserve to earn. I didn’t graduate law school to be working with high school grads, earning a third or a quarter of what my former classmates earn. Oh well, life happens.

Some of my law school classmates are dead. Several of my high school classmates didn’t make it to 30. My poor first girlfriend didn’t even make it to 28! (Boat accident with her uncle in Florida.) It could be a lot worse. And I had to deal with a lot of struggles (not just PFS) that the people I unfairly compare myself to did not have to deal with. George Foreman has said “If it ain’t positive, I didn’t hear it,” and that’s my mantra right now. Good things are on the way.

You keep doing what you're doing and libido and erection quality is NOT going to be a problem at ANY age.......BELIEVE ME

[LetsGo]

You keep doing what you're doing and libido and erection quality is NOT going to be a problem at ANY age.......BELIEVE ME

Thank you, that’s so reassuring to hear :)

[Cdsnuts]

Thank you, that’s so reassuring to hear :)

It's fact. You'll have ups and downs. Some days you'll feel like you're beating it and then other days you'll feel like you're back to square one, but YOU'RE NOT. This is just the way it works itself out. The only thing you have to do is KEEP GOING. That's it. Everything will eventually fall into place as long as you're consistent.

[LetsGo]

I’ve been on another downswing, and I’ve realized that my at-home “workouts” aren’t remotely cutting it. For several months after I wasn’t really working out much, I feel like I still had the hormonal benefits from my earlier workout regimine. It takes a month or two for the hormonal benefits to kick in when you start a program, and then I guess it takes a few months for them to wear off.

I need to get heavier weights, there’s not that much I can do with the 4 lbs and 7 lbs dumbbells (which were all I could buy when I first started looking for them.) Going to failure with 7 lbs weights, 15 times per day, just isn’t my thing. I have some 15 lbs ones on the way, which is better but probably not enough. I also need an actual pull up bar to hang from my door. The one I have from my brother is the kind that twists and expands into the door, but it doesn’t feel secure at all and I know I will fall if I use it. (I’m 153 lbs.) I may also get those resistance band things, which might help as well.

I need to build a meditation practice, I think that would make a difference, at the margins. I’ve been trying to improve my sleep, but it’s not going very well.

It’s one of those times where I feel like I haven’t made any progress at all, but I do have my old updates to look through and re-read about the upswings that I never used to get (aside from a couple of brief times on vacations.) I’d encourage anyone going through this to keep some form of a journal, and ideally also a calendar, and note any major changes in your workout, diet, herbs, sleep, etc, so you can find patterns. Maybe I should do something like that with an Excel sheet. Hopefully everything is accumulating over time, and I’m not back to zero.

I had tried doing the prohormones for about a week, hoping it’d break me out of the funk, but I still had zero libido and anhedonia, and realized that using them was a mistake because I wasn’t really working out. I looked through my Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding and came up with a workout plan that I think I can do from home. I will have 2 HIIT days and 4 lifting days, as the program calls for. Then after awhile, I will add either an arms-only day, or a third HIIT day. The grass is too wet and slippery to go running today, but maybe I should run in a paved park area near me.

To be frank, until about a week ago I had been entirely omitting the HIIT from my regimen, thinking that it was just cardio and that it wouldn’t help my hormones at all. Sprinting is anaerobic, not cardio, so the 30 second sprints are like workout sets. Also, for the first 8 or so months, I was only lifting 3 days per week, often only 10 sets per workout, yet I still made progress. But overall, it wasn’t what it should have been. Also, I was still eating gluten until October - but then I got sick for a month with mono. By doing workouts and HIIT, hopefully I’ll see more rapid progress - especially once I’ve built myself up enough to where I can use the prohomones. I want to be done with this PFS bullshit, but these things cannot be rushed.

Reluctantly, I’m cutting out rice and quinoa as well, which I was supposed to do from the start. I won’t be able to eat at restaurants now, which is very annoying. I don’t know how I’ll go on dates if I can’t go to bars or restaurants. From what I’ve read, it seems like legumes aren’t considered “paleo” because they have phytites, but they are virtually eliminated by cooking, and “ancient man” did eat beans. I’m not sure if unsweetened almond milk is okay - it’s almonds and water blended together and strained, although I think there are trace amounts of other things as well. I’d like to be able to make smoothies.

On the TMO website it talks about carb backloading on workout days - eating things like gluten-free pasta (I love red lentil pasta), rice, and both kinds of potatoes in the PM. Maybe a smoothie with my gluten-free oatmeal before bed. I could absolutely do that, especially since I’ll be working out 6 to 7 days per week. And I’d be able to have dinners at restaurants occasionally. I’m just grappling with the rules on this.

I’ve come up with an alternate way to cycle the herbs that I’m going to experiment with. Basically, one 13-day cycle, and then at the same time, a separate 7-day cycle of the herbs that I feel are less effective (goji berry, iodine, etc.) Every day, I’ll be rotating through both lists and maybe I’ll get better results that way. Plenty of guys only rotate through 13 herbs, so I’m curious to see how this works.

My hair loss has accellerated significantly. I got a red light laser helmet thing and also ordered a microneedling pen. If those don’t work, then sometime in 2021 it’ll be time to shave my head, or go with a nearly-shaved head - and either way, grow out my beard. As a short white guy, I feel like I’d have to be pretty muscular to pull off the fully shaved head look.

[DrivenToRecover]

I’ve been on another downswing, and I’ve realized that my at-home “workouts” aren’t remotely cutting it. For several months after I wasn’t really working out much, I feel like I still had the hormonal benefits from my earlier workout regimine. It takes a month or two for the hormonal benefits to kick in when you start a program, and then I guess it takes a few months for them to wear off.

I need to get heavier weights, there’s not that much I can do with the 4 lbs and 7 lbs dumbbells (which were all I could buy when I first started looking for them.) Going to failure with 7 lbs weights, 15 times per day, just isn’t my thing. I have some 15 lbs ones on the way, which is better but probably not enough. I also need an actual pull up bar to hang from my door. The one I have from my brother is the kind that twists and expands into the door, but it doesn’t feel secure at all and I know I will fall if I use it. (I’m 153 lbs.) I may also get those resistance band things, which might help as well.

I need to build a meditation practice, I think that would make a difference, at the margins. I’ve been trying to improve my sleep, but it’s not going very well.

It’s one of those times where I feel like I haven’t made any progress at all, but I do have my old updates to look through and re-read about the upswings that I never used to get (aside from a couple of brief times on vacations.) I’d encourage anyone going through this to keep some form of a journal, and ideally also a calendar, and note any major changes in your workout, diet, herbs, sleep, etc, so you can find patterns. Maybe I should do something like that with an Excel sheet. Hopefully everything is accumulating over time, and I’m not back to zero.

I had tried doing the prohormones for about a week, hoping it’d break me out of the funk, but I still had zero libido and anhedonia, and realized that using them was a mistake because I wasn’t really working out. I looked through my Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding and came up with a workout plan that I think I can do from home. I will have 2 HIIT days and 4 lifting days, as the program calls for. Then after awhile, I will add either an arms-only day, or a third HIIT day. The grass is too wet and slippery to go running today, but maybe I should run in a paved park area near me.

To be frank, until about a week ago I had been entirely omitting the HIIT from my regimen, thinking that it was just cardio and that it wouldn’t help my hormones at all. Sprinting is anaerobic, not cardio, so the 30 second sprints are like workout sets. Also, for the first 8 or so months, I was only lifting 3 days per week, often only 10 sets per workout, yet I still made progress. But overall, it wasn’t what it should have been. Also, I was still eating gluten until October - but then I got sick for a month with mono. By doing workouts and HIIT, hopefully I’ll see more rapid progress - especially once I’ve built myself up enough to where I can use the prohomones. I want to be done with this PFS bullshit, but these things cannot be rushed.

Reluctantly, I’m cutting out rice and quinoa as well, which I was supposed to do from the start. I won’t be able to eat at restaurants now, which is very annoying. I don’t know how I’ll go on dates if I can’t go to bars or restaurants. From what I’ve read, it seems like legumes aren’t considered “paleo” because they have phytites, but they are virtually eliminated by cooking, and “ancient man” did eat beans. I’m not sure if unsweetened almond milk is okay - it’s almonds and water blended together and strained, although I think there are trace amounts of other things as well. I’d like to be able to make smoothies.

On the TMO website it talks about carb backloading on workout days - eating things like gluten-free pasta (I love red lentil pasta), rice, and both kinds of potatoes in the PM. Maybe a smoothie with my gluten-free oatmeal before bed. I could absolutely do that, especially since I’ll be working out 6 to 7 days per week. And I’d be able to have dinners at restaurants occasionally. I’m just grappling with the rules on this.

I’ve come up with an alternate way to cycle the herbs that I’m going to experiment with. Basically, one 13-day cycle, and then at the same time, a separate 7-day cycle of the herbs that I feel are less effective (goji berry, iodine, etc.) Every day, I’ll be rotating through both lists and maybe I’ll get better results that way. Plenty of guys only rotate through 13 herbs, so I’m curious to see how this works.

My hair loss has accellerated significantly. I got a red light laser helmet thing and also ordered a microneedling pen. If those don’t work, then sometime in 2021 it’ll be time to shave my head, or go with a nearly-shaved head - and either way, grow out my beard. As a short white guy, I feel like I’d have to be pretty muscular to pull off the fully shaved head look.

Yeah man, you'll get better results hormonally from doing any maximum intensity exercise compared to cardio. In my opinion its not even close. I think hormonally you get more benefit from 60 seconds of all out intensity doing burpees than 20 minutes of jogging.

Those laser helmets are quite expnsive for a nice one. Id honestly say you should shoot for a full body quality red light and just let it hit your head some, and the rest of your body too & get full systemic benefits

[LetsGo]

Yeah man, you'll get better results hormonally from doing any maximum intensity exercise compared to cardio. In my opinion its not even close. I think hormonally you get more benefit from 60 seconds of all out intensity doing burpees than 20 minutes of jogging.

Those laser helmets are quite expnsive for a nice one. Id honestly say you should shoot for a full body quality red light and just let it hit your head some, and the rest of your body too & get full systemic benefits

I got a Joovv full body red light setup in 2019, which was about $900. It didn’t do anything for my hair, despite me tilting my head down, and to be honest I’m not sure if it’s doing anything, or if my hormones are messed up and that’s why I don’t feel a major benefit from it. Maybe it helps me in subtle ways. Supposedly it’s raising my test but I haven’t always been super consistent in using it, because if I use it in the afternoon it gives me insomnia.

The Joovv makes my balls move up and down slightly, but I don’t feel a burst of libido from it like the spokesperson claims. I wonder if it can speed my recovery at all.

The laser helmet I bought is the iRestore ($500). It has red lights and red lasers. It’s the same wavelength of red light as the Joovv, but apparently the helmet’s combo of lasers and light works a lot better for hair growth than just the red light of the Joovv. Plus, it covers my scalp much better. It also goes for 25 minutes, whereas the Joovv is just 5 minutes (otherwise I get insomnia.)

When I use the iRestore, my whole scalp feels tingly and energized for a few minutes afterwards, so I feel like it’s doing something, although I care way more about my pfs recovery than my hair, tbh.

[DrivenToRecover]

I got a Joovv full body red light setup in 2019, which was about $900. It didn’t do anything for my hair, despite me tilting my head down, and to be honest I’m not sure if it’s doing anything, or if my hormones are messed up and that’s why I don’t feel a major benefit from it. Maybe it helps me in subtle ways. Supposedly it’s raising my test but I haven’t always been super consistent in using it, because if I use it in the afternoon it gives me insomnia.

The Joovv makes my balls move up and down slightly, but I don’t feel a burst of libido from it like the spokesperson claims. I wonder if it can speed my recovery at all.

The laser helmet I bought is the iRestore ($500). It has red lights and red lasers. It’s the same wavelength of red light as the Joovv, but apparently the helmet’s combo of lasers and light works a lot better for hair growth than just the red light of the Joovv. Plus, it covers my scalp much better. It also goes for 25 minutes, whereas the Joovv is just 5 minutes (otherwise I get insomnia.)

When I use the iRestore, my whole scalp feels tingly and energized for a few minutes afterwards, so I feel like it’s doing something, although I care way more about my pfs recovery than my hair, tbh.

Interesting. Yea, it can be a bit tricky to dose the red light. You can underdo it and get nothing, and overdo it pretty easily as well.

Might be interested to buy that joovv off ya if you really dont use it anymore haha

[LetsGo]

Interesting. Yea, it can be a bit tricky to dose the red light. You can underdo it and get nothing, and overdo it pretty easily as well.

Might be interested to buy that joovv off ya if you really dont use it anymore haha

I’m definitely still using it, so unfortunately it’s not for sale, lol. There were months where I didn’t use it, but then other times, like now, where I use it almost every day. You can probably find one on eBay for a discount compared to what I paid for a new one, though.

[LetsGo]

I guess it’s time for another update.

I’ve been exercising the last few weeks, moving somewhat closer to what my pre-lockdown levels of workout intensity were. Right now I’m averaging 6 workouts per week, but I need to be doing something every day. Working a muscle group, or sprints. I might look into those exercise resistance bands, but for now I have 4lbs, 7 lbs, and 15 lbs dumbbells.

I have leg day covered, using two big jugs of Poland Spring water with handles on them. They weigh about 22 lbs each or something like that, and when I’m holding one in each hand it’s a lot better than body weight squats. I’m able to feel sore the next day or two afterwards, so that’s a good sign. But I need to spread that further away from my sprinting days.

For chest, what I’m doing is supersets to compensate for not having heavy (for me) weights. Those 15 lbs dumbbells are very heavy when you just maxed out on push-ups 3 seconds ago. What I should do is then go to the 7 lbs, and then the 4 lbs ones. 5 sets of that, twice a day, would be solid. It should ideally be 15 sets of chest work, but I feel like my options for chest exercises are limited.

For shoulders, my home setup is actually not far off from what I had in the gym. I always used dumbbells and supersetted lateral, forward, and overhead raises. It’s pretty intense when you superset them, but they became my best muscle group. I also think, aesthetically, shoulders are the most important muscle group because they make you look wider up top and therefore you get more of that V-shape.

For back day, I’ve been doing bent over wide rows and reverse flys. I also have a pull-up bar for my doorframe, and I superset pull-ups into the rows and flys. The problem is that I can’t do that many pull-ups anymore, only 3 when I’m fresh. I felt like I was getting a good workout but again, I should probably be supersetting these with dumbbells. Maybe get 12 lbs dumbbells or 10 lbs.

On the red light front, I’m starting a routine where I use the Joovv one day, and the hair helmet thing the next. When I use the Joovv and the hair helmet the same day, the red light lasers actually start to give me a big headache for the last 5 minutes I’m using it.

I’m hoping that I didn’t lose all of my progress, hopefully it’ll come back. No MW except after pine pollen tincture days - and I think that’s a sign that I haven’t lost all my progress. Originally, even pine pollen tincture or a mega dose of the powder wouldn’t give me morning wood. My libido and sensitivity are still bad, though. I’m looking forward to when I have another upswing. I think that will come with more workouts.

My personal life has been hard lately, because my father is an incredible asshole and started mocking me for being what he considers a complete failure, etc. He was incredibly condescending and said that I was just now expressing interest in a career, but he said I’m too incompetent for any of my goals and that it’s his “duty as my father” to give me “cold hard reality.” The man has zero friends, is a horrible husband, neither of his sons talk to him except on holidays, and he’s been chronically depressed his whole life. So his advice is worth fuck all. He has zero clue about my field, and arrogantly thinks he knows more about it than I do. He thinks I know nothing, and that I’ve done nothing with my life, which is not true. He shows no respect for me whatsoever. It took a long time to break away from all the negativity I unconsciously picked up from him, and he’ll never drag me back down to his level.

I’m not going to listen to him, but it will 100% cause massive drama when he finds out about me moving and starting the business. It just adds a level of stress that I did not need. I wish I had two supportive parents instead of one supportive one, and one massively negative one. He’s treating me the way he did when I first crashed with PFS, near-death with panic attacks, and was living at home after losing my job. I really want nothing to do with him anymore. I don’t want to see him for my birthday, just my mom, or maybe my brother and his wife.

My job has become horrible, so I need to ramp up my preparations for my business and get my exit strategy rolling. I might also make a separate side business where I’ll refer personal injury cases to other lawyers. I’m good with digital ads, so maybe that could work out as a side thing.

[Maxout777]

I guess it’s time for another update.

I’ve been exercising the last few weeks, moving somewhat closer to what my pre-lockdown levels of workout intensity were. Right now I’m averaging 6 workouts per week, but I need to be doing something every day. Working a muscle group, or sprints. I might look into those exercise resistance bands, but for now I have 4lbs, 7 lbs, and 15 lbs dumbbells.

I have leg day covered, using two big jugs of Poland Spring water with handles on them. They weigh about 22 lbs each or something like that, and when I’m holding one in each hand it’s a lot better than body weight squats. I’m able to feel sore the next day or two afterwards, so that’s a good sign. But I need to spread that further away from my sprinting days.

For chest, what I’m doing is supersets to compensate for not having heavy (for me) weights. Those 15 lbs dumbbells are very heavy when you just maxed out on push-ups 3 seconds ago. What I should do is then go to the 7 lbs, and then the 4 lbs ones. 5 sets of that, twice a day, would be solid. It should ideally be 15 sets of chest work, but I feel like my options for chest exercises are limited.

For shoulders, my home setup is actually not far off from what I had in the gym. I always used dumbbells and supersetted lateral, forward, and overhead raises. It’s pretty intense when you superset them, but they became my best muscle group. I also think, aesthetically, shoulders are the most important muscle group because they make you look wider up top and therefore you get more of that V-shape.

For back day, I’ve been doing bent over wide rows and reverse flys. I also have a pull-up bar for my doorframe, and I superset pull-ups into the rows and flys. The problem is that I can’t do that many pull-ups anymore, only 3 when I’m fresh. I felt like I was getting a good workout but again, I should probably be supersetting these with dumbbells. Maybe get 12 lbs dumbbells or 10 lbs.

On the red light front, I’m starting a routine where I use the Joovv one day, and the hair helmet thing the next. When I use the Joovv and the hair helmet the same day, the red light lasers actually start to give me a big headache for the last 5 minutes I’m using it.

I’m hoping that I didn’t lose all of my progress, hopefully it’ll come back. No MW except after pine pollen tincture days - and I think that’s a sign that I haven’t lost all my progress. Originally, even pine pollen tincture or a mega dose of the powder wouldn’t give me morning wood. My libido and sensitivity are still bad, though. I’m looking forward to when I have another upswing. I think that will come with more workouts.

My personal life has been hard lately, because my father is an incredible asshole and started mocking me for being what he considers a complete failure, etc. He was incredibly condescending and said that I was just now expressing interest in a career, but he said I’m too incompetent for any of my goals and that it’s his “duty as my father” to give me “cold hard reality.” The man has zero friends, is a horrible husband, neither of his sons talk to him except on holidays, and he’s been chronically depressed his whole life. So his advice is worth fuck all. He has zero clue about my field, and arrogantly thinks he knows more about it than I do. He thinks I know nothing, and that I’ve done nothing with my life, which is not true. He shows no respect for me whatsoever. It took a long time to break away from all the negativity I unconsciously picked up from him, and he’ll never drag me back down to his level.

I’m not going to listen to him, but it will 100% cause massive drama when he finds out about me moving and starting the business. It just adds a level of stress that I did not need. I wish I had two supportive parents instead of one supportive one, and one massively negative one. He’s treating me the way he did when I first crashed with PFS, near-death with panic attacks, and was living at home after losing my job. I really want nothing to do with him anymore. I don’t want to see him for my birthday, just my mom, or maybe my brother and his wife.

My job has become horrible, so I need to ramp up my preparations for my business and get my exit strategy rolling. I might also make a separate side business where I’ll refer personal injury cases to other lawyers. I’m good with digital ads, so maybe that could work out as a side thing.

1.) Ignore your father - people like that have no place in your life in general, let alone in your current situation. You can love and support your father without letting him hold a spot in your life that’s influential. I do it all the time with family members. It’s a cold hard reality as you said, but certain family influence is toxic. Doesn’t mean we don’t love and support them, but we don’t let them bring us down. Fight the good fight my friend.

2.) I wouldn’t recommend doing “something” everyday regarding training other than walking. If you’re not doing sprints or weightlifting, try an hour of normal pace walking. You’ll be amazed as to how you feel after without taxing the system. I walk about three miles at a normal pace daily whether I go to a CrossFit class, do sprints, or not. I rarely do sprints these days due to the injury risk - as I get plenty of HIIT in a WOD. Anyways, recovery is super important here - if you workout too much you’ll keep your body from having any reserves to “beat the PFS”.

[LetsGo]

1.) Ignore your father - people like that have no place in your life in general, let alone in your current situation. You can love and support your father without letting him hold a spot in your life that’s influential. I do it all the time with family members. It’s a cold hard reality as you said, but certain family influence is toxic. Doesn’t mean we don’t love and support them, but we don’t let them bring us down. Fight the good fight my friend.

2.) I wouldn’t recommend doing “something” everyday regarding training other than walking. If you’re not doing sprints or weightlifting, try an hour of normal pace walking. You’ll be amazed as to how you feel after without taxing the system. I walk about three miles at a normal pace daily whether I go to a CrossFit class, do sprints, or not. I rarely do sprints these days due to the injury risk - as I get plenty of HIIT in a WOD. Anyways, recovery is super important here - if you workout too much you’ll keep your body from having any reserves to “beat the PFS”.

1) Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. I agree that my father shouldn’t have an influential role in my life or decisions (anymore.)

What he was telling me was not really cold hard reality as he described it - it was pessimistic worst case thinking, combined with him not understanding my field at all.

I’ve struggled a lot and didn’t live up to my career expectations, and I also picked a field that is much more competitive and difficult than I’d expected. I had seen a therapist who taught me about REBT (Rational Emotional Behavioral Therapy) and it’s been helpful to me - I don’t tend to go deep down into negative thought spirals like I used to. “If only I did XYZ! Now it’s too late, therefore I’m doomed.” Or “I have XYZ attribute that can’t be changed. Therefore, I cannot do ABC which is absolutely required for me to be happy.” That type of thinking is my dad’s bread and butter and it’s what I’ve moved away from.

I’m just trying to chart a course to where I can support myself when I move to NYC, which I want to happen soon. I missed so many years of work for various reasons, including PFS - and my father piling on verbal abuse. I was an empty shell. I took whatever job I could, and hoped that my current job would allow me to transfer to NYC, but it doesn’t look like that will ever happen, so I have to find another way. That’s honestly almost a bigger concern for me than overcoming PFS right now, as ridiculous as that sounds. I could support myself for a year with my savings so I shouldn’t be so afraid, but I am.

2) This also makes sense.

Until pretty recently, I basically stopped working out altogether, when the gym shut down. That was over 3 months of not working out. (Somehow my arms only shrank from 14.15 to 14 inches. I was shocked I lost such little muscle mass.) For a good 2 months or so, I still had my normal ups and downs, and then the ups stopped - it felt as if the hormonal benefits of working out kept going for 2 months and then wore off. So I came up with some home workouts, but they’re generally not as good as what I did at the gym, where I have things like a bench press, incline press, and lots of machines. Right now I’m easing back into daily workouts and am doing 5 sets (with supersets) most days. It should really be 15 sets of 3 different exercises, and have a rest day every week.

The protocol calls for, I think, 4 lifting days and 2 (to 3) sprinting days, so that would be 6 to 7 days, if you count the sprinting as workouts. I think incorporating a rest day is a good idea, for my body, and also to give myself a break. Maybe I can work out 2 body groups per day or something so I can hit 15 sets - my goal is hormonal benefits and healing from PFS more so than putting on size, although it is nice to put on size.

Thanks for your helpful input, you always have good info.

[LetsGo]

Quick update: my morning wood has been back for the last few days. It seems like it doesn’t take that many days of exercise to boost my testosterone up to where I get my MW. On the other hand, it’s not at maximum strength when I wake up. Maybe 75%.

Based on that, it looks like my home workouts are showing signs of effectiveness.

[Jado]

Quick update: my morning wood has been back for the last few days. It seems like it doesn’t take that many days of exercise to boost my testosterone up to where I get my MW. On the other hand, it’s not at maximum strength when I wake up. Maybe 75%.

Based on that, it looks like my home workouts are showing signs of effectiveness.

Mine's the same way when I'm in downswings, not totally solid. When I'm feeling well, they're close to 100. Glad to see people making progress.

[LetsGo]

Mine's the same way when I'm in downswings, not totally solid. When I'm feeling well, they're close to 100. Glad to see people making progress.

Some days when I wake up, I have what I call “ghost wood.” It’s morning wood, but I don’t “feel” like I have an erection and wouldn’t notice it unless I checked with my hand. When I have downswings, I don’t have morning wood at all, unfortunately.

But when I’m having an upswing, I have 100% hardness that lasts for many minutes after I wake up. I can’t wait until it’s like that every day, and all my symptoms other symptoms are gone. Especially the lack of pleasure and libido.

[The whit wagon]

I get that ghost wood stuff you're on about, I feel like as long as it's working and getting blood flow its not too much to be worried about.
You seem to be making good progress bro, you should be fine in no time.

[LetsGo]

I’ve been having consistent morning wood lately, and it’s a lot stronger than a week or two ago. It’s been fading somewhat quickly once I wake up, but I’ll take that over ghost wood any day.

My shoulders are looking a bit wider - I still can’t believe I kept almost all of my muscle after I stopped working out for so long.

My libido has been up significantly, but it’s not 100%. When it’s 100%, it’s distractingly strong. I’d say it’s maybe 35% or so. Sensation is improving, but it’s far from 100%.

I have UltraHard now, and maybe next week I’ll give it a go. I feel like next week I should be ready for it, and hopefully I’ll make some nice progress towards post-PFS status.

[Maxout777]

I’ve been having consistent morning wood lately, and it’s a lot stronger than a week or two ago. It’s been fading somewhat quickly once I wake up, but I’ll take that over ghost wood any day.

My shoulders are looking a bit wider - I still can’t believe I kept almost all of my muscle after I stopped working out for so long.

My libido has been up significantly, but it’s not 100%. When it’s 100%, it’s distractingly strong. I’d say it’s maybe 35% or so. Sensation is improving, but it’s far from 100%.

I have UltraHard now, and maybe next week I’ll give it a go. I feel like next week I should be ready for it, and hopefully I’ll make some nice progress towards post-PFS status.

Great news. I feel you'll really like the Ultra Hard. Epi Andro gets a bad name added in, but a lot of people forget that CD's runs of AHv3 during his recovery all included epi-androsterone dosed in a ratio to androsterone similar to what Rob did here.

[LetsGo]

I think the quinoa that I have - despite being labeled as gluten free - actually does have gluten contamination. There’ve been a few times when I had it, including yesterday, and it seemed to derail me from an upswing. This morning I didn’t have any wood, so I think I’m going to throw out the rest of the quinoa. I also cleaned my rice cooker thoroughly before I used it to make some rice today.

I’ve been very lethargic lately, I just don’t have much energy. I’m not sure if this is related to PFS or not, but I have been feeling zombie-ish lately, and hazy. Not just today, but for weeks. It’s hard to make myself exercise, and I skipped that over the weekend. I don’t like feeling so lethargic and not getting much done - it’s really holding me back from achieving my goals.

[Jado]

I think the quinoa that I have - despite being labeled as gluten free - actually does have gluten contamination. There’ve been a few times when I had it, including yesterday, and it seemed to derail me from an upswing. This morning I didn’t have any wood, so I think I’m going to throw out the rest of the quinoa. I also cleaned my rice cooker thoroughly before I used it to make some rice today.

I’ve been very lethargic lately, I just don’t have much energy. I’m not sure if this is related to PFS or not, but I have been feeling zombie-ish lately, and hazy. Not just today, but for weeks. It’s hard to make myself exercise, and I skipped that over the weekend. I don’t like feeling so lethargic and not getting much done - it’s really holding me back from achieving my goals.

Man, I feel ya. I feel like there are varying degrees of downswings. Some are mild, some are pretty sucky, and then some are really sucky. I just always keep in mind that things are consistently improving. Even though I'm not yet 100, I am FAR better than when I started the protocol, and I know I will get there. It's easy to question everything when not feeling great. We just gotta stay positive, and keep our eyes on the prize. I was in a terrible downswing a couple weeks ago, and I'm already feeling better. The downswings get shorter, and shorter, and the upswings keep getting longer until our bodies reach equilibrium and remain in a constant state normalcy. Just keep pluggin' away.

[Cdsnuts]

Man, I feel ya. I feel like there are varying degrees of downswings. Some are mild, some are pretty sucky, and then some are really sucky. I just always keep in mind that things are consistently improving. Even though I'm not yet 100, I am FAR better than when I started the protocol, and I know I will get there. It's easy to question everything when not feeling great. We just gotta stay positive, and keep our eyes on the prize. I was in a terrible downswing a couple weeks ago, and I'm already feeling better. The downswings get shorter, and shorter, and the upswings keep getting longer until our bodies reach equilibrium and remain in a constant state normalcy. Just keep pluggin' away.

That's exactly how it happens. You just gotta keep at it.

[LetsGo]

Update time. I had about 4 consecutive okayish days last week, followed by some bad days. Currently I’m feeling pretty bad, and it’s been quite awhile since I had real libido.

I seem to have almost permanent thirstiness, and I’m not sure what’s up with that. I doubt it’s diabetes because my diet is pretty good and I’m not fat at all. Might go and see the doctor about it, especially since it’ll get me out of work for a few hours.

Overall, I just feel pretty bad most days these last couple of weeks. Other days I feel better than I probably should, with lots of hope and optimism about my business plan.

Sometimes I feel like I’m cursed, and I wonder if things will be okay for me. If I wind up having a pretty unhappy life alone, I could deal with it as long as I don’t focus on the past or future, or what-if-I-hads. I like to imagine there are alternate universes and that there are other me-s out there living great lives. Or that maybe we get a do-over when we die, and you do a little better each time - although that’s totally irrational, and doesn’t make any sense.

I’m working out 7 days per week (if you count the sprinting as workouts) and it’s not overkill for me. And I’m taking my herbs as well, and my diet is gluten free, but occassionally I find things that are labeled as gluten free that apparently aren’t - or I’ll eat something from a restaurant that apparently was cross-contaminated. I’m starting to use the Joovv yet again, but I think the reason it didn’t help me that much before was that I was sticking to 5 minutes per day, and I wasn’t that consistent. I’m going to work up to 10 minutes and possibly eventually 15 minutes.

I’m just dragging myself through each day - I haven’t made enough progress on finishing my website to launch my law firm and I feel so old. I’ll be 37 soon and I know that that’s not that old, but I feel old. I should’ve gone to some sort of asexual meetups so that at least I would’ve had some companionship these last years. I’m not sure whether I’ll really turn the corner on this PFS thing before I’m 40, but we’ll see. I am the type of person who’d keep pulling the parachute cord when I’m fifteen feet from splatting, hoping it will somehow work, becuase you have to do something.

Last year, and I think maybe earlier this year, were periods of a week or more where I felt almost normal again, using the protocol, so I do know that it’s doing something. I’m just ready to get on to the next stage of my life where I’m back in NYC, have a decent website and ads that enable me to profitably get a stream of clients in my area. Workouts and red light every day, helping clients, all that. I may also see a teletherapist, although no therapist has ever believed me about PFS.

[Moonman]

It sounds like you might have electrolyte issues. Potassium and/or sodium may be low. A hair analysis will tell you that. Could be due to low aldosterone which is common with PFS.

Have you started AndroHard or UltraHard or anything like it? Might want to back off exercising so much as well. Over training (you are compromised) will cause low aldosterone --> messed up electrolytes and low cortisol.

Do a 24 hour urinary cortisol test.

[LetsGo]

It sounds like you might have electrolyte issues. Potassium and/or sodium may be low. A hair analysis will tell you that. Could be due to low aldosterone which is common with PFS.

Have you started AndroHard or UltraHard or anything like it? Might want to back off exercising so much as well. Over training (you are compromised) will cause low aldosterone --> messed up electrolytes and low cortisol.

Do a 24 hour urinary cortisol test.

I could possibly be low on potassium, although I do get a decent amount from my diet, including lots of spinach. But the body needs a lot of potassium.

My doctor is very young, a year or two out of med school, and he always says no to whatever test I want to do.

A few months ago I used androhard for 3 or 4 days and felt nothing. So I haven’t been on that for quite awhile and I don’t think it’s causing any effects now. My workouts aren’t that crazy - only 15 sets across 3 different lifts for the same muscle group. 8 to 10 rep maxes. I’ve had the “always thirsty” phenomenon for a long time, even when I wasn’t working out at all during most of the pandemic.

Hopefully a doctor will let me do the urinary cortisol test, but I know he’s going to think I’m crazy. He’s very by the book, and I’m not sure where to get these tests. But I do think something’s possibly going on.

[Moonman]

Get a new doctor. Mine lets me test whatever I want.

[LetsGo]

Get a new doctor. Mine lets me test whatever I want.

Do I need to find one that believes in PFS? I feel like 90% of doctors won’t go along with the idea of me ordering tests for my hormones unless I have a diagnosis that they believe in

[Turnover25]

Do I need to find one that believes in PFS? I feel like 90% of doctors won’t go along with the idea of me ordering tests for my hormones unless I have a diagnosis that they believe in

No you don’t. In my experience, nobody is going to believe it, I gave up on going to the doctor ages ago. You really just gotta stick to what is laid out and things will improve my man.

If you really insist on getting tests, you can get whatever test you want without a doctor, where I live at least. Not sure where you live. But I got some hormones and vitamin levels tested by myself through independent places, it cost me a couple hundred bucks.

[DefRecover]

I think you just need to try another doctor. Getting blood tests with a hormone panel, nutrient panel, PSA and other relevant tests is not controversial. In fact it is recommended for any man over 30 every couple of years. Depending on where you live, there may be a cost to you. But otherwise, these are pretty standard tests.

I have had them taken a number of times and have never told any doctor about PFS - except for one urologist who laughed me out of his office. I am not an anti-vaxxer or agains mainstream medicine at all, but there is no point trying to deal with this with through doctors until if / when it becomes a widely accepted condition. The good news is, it is not permanent, and there is a way through that you can keep following right here...

Chin up, bro.

Def

[LetsGo]

I feel like I’m improving again. I’ve been using my Joovv literally every day for a little over a week, and although I don’t have super consistent morning wood now, there’s pretty regular night wood when I wake up, and I’m feeling more libido. Sensation is still low, though. (But it’s increased slightly.) This is a long way from normal, but I love feeling better.

When I use the Joovv now, I’m doing it for 10 minutes instead of 5 minutes, and I think that makes a significant difference. I force myself to get out of bed and stand in front of it for the 10 minutes, looking at my phone, instead of laying in my bed looking at my phone. I used to be worried that it was giving me insomnia, but it isn’t. I lowered it below my chin level, so the panel covers everything from my neck to about my knees or so. The studies on red light and testosterone seemed to involve more than 10 minutes per day, so I’m not sure if I will maybe up it to 15 minutes at some point.

Obviously I’m also going to the gym, avoiding gluten, and I’m doing the herb rotation every day as well. It’s hard to say, but I do think the Joovv is helping significantly. It may take a few more weeks to really see the results, and then I should also be ready to use the UltraHard for a cycle.

I’m also getting in touch with a therapist, and I’m taking off next week from work. I will have 32 vacation days left after that, and I can get paid for 30 of them when I leave the job, so I want to make sure I don’t let it dip below 30. It’ll be a significant chunk of change. During the 9 days I’ll have off, I’m going to work on my business stuff, work out, and also take some time to visit places near my area that are open.

There’s also a woman who lives down the street from me who I’ve been texting and we’re supposedly going to go out when she’s back from visiting her folks.

[LetsGo]

I hit a downswing after eating at the Mexican restaurant near my apartment (I think there was gluten cross-contamination), but then over the last couple of days, I’ve been having a strong upswing. My libido suddenly got a lot higher, probably a solid 70% of pre-fin! For the first time in many years I’m actually getting blueballs. Morning wood is still inconsistent, although I’ve been getting terrible sleep lately. Sensitivity is still lousy.

I’ve upped the Joovv to 15 minutes these last few days, and I have to wonder whether that’s a major cause of my upswing, along with my workouts and everything else. I have to make sure to religiously avoid most restaurants - there have been many times where I ordered something that shouldn’t have gluten in it, but it apparently does. As much as it sucks, I think it makes sense to find a roster of foods that you know you can safely eat, and then stick to that. Because one gluten-containing meal can set me back for 4 or 5 days and completely derail an upswing.

I’m also going to buy some ginger tea, since there are some studies showing it may raise testosterone naturally. And whether it does or not, it has antioxidants that I think can only help me.

One other change that I made was switching from boxer-briefs to boxers. I’ve read studies on Pubmed showing that briefs don’t really lower your testosterone, but they do require your body to make more LH to achieve about the same level of testosterone. So to me, that means your body has to work harder for the same result. But I think that for PFS guys, you need every edge you can get, so I’m getting more boxers. I doubt this is a huge game-changing thing, but I also think that doing a whole bunch of smaller things can add up to a bigger result.

Within about two weeks I should be ready to try the UltraHard, so that’ll be exciting.

[Cdsnuts]

I just read your whole thread. It may be more apparent to me because I read it in one sitting, straight through, but if you go back and read, there is a consistent theme in your post. Upswings and downswings. Just the way it always plays itself out. I understand that it's easy to get frustrated once so much time has passed. Especially when you're starting to feel good and you get a taste of what that's like. But you don't need a new doctor...you don't need any doctor, IMO. You just need to constantly make sure you're doing what you're supposed to be doing and that you're not veering off course. If you are, fix it. As long as you're doing what is laid out for you, you'll get there....you will.

If you really have a hard on for bloods, then find a doc that will get them for you, but don't let them suck you into the medical model of treatment. That'll just add years to your sentence. Believe me.

I've seen this countless times. Guys get half way, or most times MORE then half way through, and they start to waiver. Become indecisive, start questioning whether or not they should switch it up. Thinking they should be farther along then they are, etc, etc. DON'T GIVE IN.

Trust me. Make sure your regimen is locked and loaded and you're squared up 100%. This is when you need to buckle up and get shit done.

KEEP GOING.

[LetsGo]

I just read your whole thread. It may be more apparent to me because I read it in one sitting, straight through, but if you go back and read, there is a consistent theme in your post. Upswings and downswings. Just the way it always plays itself out. I understand that it's easy to get frustrated once so much time has passed. Especially when you're starting to feel good and you get a taste of what that's like. But you don't need a new doctor...you don't need any doctor, IMO. You just need to constantly make sure you're doing what you're supposed to be doing and that you're not veering off course. If you are, fix it. As long as you're doing what is laid out for you, you'll get there....you will.

If you really have a hard on for bloods, then find a doc that will get them for you, but don't let them suck you into the medical model of treatment. That'll just add years to your sentence. Believe me.

I've seen this countless times. Guys get half way, or most times MORE then half way through, and they start to waiver. Become indecisive, start questioning whether or not they should switch it up. Thinking they should be farther along then they are, etc, etc. DON'T GIVE IN.

Trust me. Make sure your regimen is locked and loaded and you're squared up 100%. This is when you need to buckle up and get shit done.

KEEP GOING.

Thanks!

I have had lots of upswings and downswings, but I feel like I'm bouncing back from the downswings faster than I used to. And the upswings seem to be better than they used to be. I’m feeling stronger in the gym, and I’m going to start an UltraHard cycle, probably on Monday.

In the last few days I started to feel my general motivation coming back, which is very important.

The big areas where I need to improve are: sleeping more, and not fapping. It’s really weird having an improving libido, but not improving sensitivity. I’m sure it’ll get better, but it’s just weird how different symptoms improve at different rates.

I definitely won’t hop on the medical solutions bandwagon; I’m not really aware of anyone who was cured through that route. And I don’t want to go on TRT or any of those other things.

Thanks again for the motivation, and thank you for taking the time to read through all my posts!

[Cdsnuts]

I definitely won’t hop on the medical solutions bandwagon; I’m not really aware of anyone who was cured through that route. And I don’t want to go on TRT or any of those other things.

That's because nobody has. It's just not something that can be cured using the "medical model" of treatment. This issue is too multifaceted to be cured with a bunch of meds



Thanks again for the motivation, and thank you for taking the time to read through all my posts!

For the guys that put in 100%, you can be sure you'll get the same back from me. You're doing a great job. Great log. Certainly a good addition to the forum archives. You're helping alot of other guys by simply sharing.

[Cooper]

Mid-April Update: 2 months

It’s been about 2 months since I started this journey, and I have made further improvements.

My rotation has 17 of the herbs in it, and I cycle the pine pollen and pine pollen tincture so that they are about 8 days apart.

My libido is up very significantly.

And wow, WOW, my orgasm quality is WAY up. Earlier I said it was 1.5 out of ten, but in retrospect that was 0.25 out of 10. Now it’s easily 6 out of 10. I’d forgotten that it’s that enjoyable, and I have a feeling that this isn’t even close to a full recovery. This is very exciting to me, because I had felt really bad about not being able to enjoy sex, the women would enjoy it immensely (except for not being able to please me, and they’d feel guilty and bad about themselves despite my reassurances) and I’d feel “meh” and generally not be able to come, and if I did, well... I’ve had sneezes that were more deeply satisfying than my PFS orgasms. Literally.

I feel less foggy, but I’m still not 100% on that front. Maybe 65% better?

I’ve gained half an inch on my arm circumference, up to 12.5” flexed (no pump), so I am gaining muscle. I need to make sure I train 3 times per week, I often end up letting other things get in the way and end up with just 2 workouts. My arm size gains are indirect, from bench pressing and other exercises - I will incorporate direct arm training this week.

My shoulders are broader, and my shirt collars are getting less roomy - my neck is getting thicker. Personally, I don’t prefer for my neck to get bigger, but whatever. It’s unavoidable when you lift. If this keeps up I’ll just have to get new collared shirts with 0.5 inch wider necks.

I will start using my Joovv every day in the morning, and that may help me make more progress faster. (It will also make me feel like I got my ~$1,000 worth.) I wasn’t doing it daily in part due to not waking up early enough, and partly because I wanted to see what my progress would be without it. To know if it was progress from he Joovv, or from the other stuff.

I know it’s normal for there to be ups and plateaus in this process, and I did have a plateau for several weeks. I was using a prescription anti-allergy nasal inhaler at night sometimes, but I got suspicious and used breathe rite nasal strips instead, and I’m not sure if the inhaler was interfering with my progress somehow. I’m going to get better pillows and covers to reduce the dust mites since I am allergic to them (all pillows and blankets have millions of mites, no matter how clean you are.)

Overall, I feel significantly better and I’m really looking forward to making further gains. If this is how good I am in 2 months, I wonder what it’ll be like at the 12 month mark? I am sure it won’t take me 2 years to recover fully. Even when I recover, I will do another full order of all the herbs (about 1.5 years worth) just to be sure. And then I’ll still use the herbs that I like the most.

I am grateful that CD put this information out there, instead of keeping it to himself. It’s like when Batman got out of the cave in The Dark Knight Rises - he sends a rope down so everyone else can climb up, because that’s the right thing to do. Sadly though, there are guys down in the PFS cave saying “ignore the rope, scientists are actively researching why we are down in this cave. Someday they will carry us out.” Or... just climb out.

CD, you’re changing lives, including mine. Although I would not have killed myself, I’m sure that you have literally saved lives as well. My quality of life is increasing dramatically month by month, and I’m very excited about the future. Thank you for that.

More updates to come...

Hello bro, nice to see you are improving. Can you please list those 17 herbs you are using please?

And also how do you cycle them? Did you do a waterfast beforehand and will you use R-Andro in future? Thanks a lot.

[The whit wagon]

Hello bro, nice to see you are improving. Can you please list those 17 herbs you are using please?

And also how do you cycle them? Did you do a waterfast beforehand and will you use R-Andro in future? Thanks a lot.

Cooper mate youre starting to piss me off now so I'm gonna try help.

look at this website Total Male Optimization (https://www.totalmaleoptimization.com)

Then sort the forum by replies and read all the top posts until you feel like you fully get what you're doing. Especially everything by a few users mainly IMO CD Jacknap maxout ricktheruler and damn these are the main ones that helped me at the start. Take notes and you should know what you're doing there's even a quick start guide on tmo.

The process is an outline but you pick the herbs you choose how long you fast etc... everyone's case is different and people here are happy to help but you need to make some decisions for yourself, for example you don't have to take every supplement but you need at least a 7 herb rotation with pine pollen, vitamin D and magnesium supplements to start IMO (I have more than this now but thats what I chose at the start all mine are listed on tmo) but I'm sure there are people who'd disagree with me. Have faith in the process, don't expect to just get it completely handed to you.

Also footnote you cant get R-andro anymore (except for out of date shite) that's why there's ultrahard at the top its a topical skin gel with the same active ingredients androsterone and epiandrosterone which are components of recovery. To cycle herbs you take 1 herb each day in your cycle so day one I take maca then I take tribulus etc... until getting back to the start of my cycle. This helps prevent tolerance.

[LetsGo]

Hello bro, nice to see you are improving. Can you please list those 17 herbs you are using please?

And also how do you cycle them? Did you do a waterfast beforehand and will you use R-Andro in future? Thanks a lot.

Thanks. As The Whit Dragon said, you just pick herbs that are listed in Total Male Optimization (http://www.TotalMaleOptimization.com), which is CD’s website. I picked most of them that were on the list, although I phased out eluthero because it gave me horrible insomnia every time I ever took it. If I took it at 8 AM before work, I would lay awake until 4 AM that night. You cycle them by making a list of the herbs and taking 1 per day, then you move it to the back of the pile.

I did a juice feast before the herbs and everything.

I won’t use R-andro because it’s not really available anymore; the company that made it stopped making it. There’s a new version, which isn’t very good. Guys are using a product called UltraHard now and that’s what I started using today.

I would just carefully look over what’s on CD’s website and follow that, and you should be good.

[LetsGo]

So, I’ve been using UltraHard since Monday, and so far I haven’t noticed any ultra-strong results, but I do feel at least some results. The first few days I did have a bit of an upswing, which then faded the day after I had a green smoothie and almost fell asleep. Maybe there was traces of gluten in my blender or something. I also felt incredibly sleepy after eating Mexican food from this place down the street, and it happened on two occassions that also derailed upswings, so I think that that might happen whenever I have gluten.

It seems like the upswings and downswings are getting shorter, with less “recovery time” in between upswings. But even during the upswings, I don’t feel 100% pre-fin or super close to it - the sensitivity quality still isn’t there. But I feel like these are still positives.

When I used the UltraHard the first day, and also today, I noticed that my balls had this odd “cool" sensation in them an hour or two after applying the UltraHard. I’d like to imagine that it’s something positive.

I was hoping that I’d start feeling a massive difference within a day or two of starting UltraHard; oily skin, raging libido, et cetera, but it hasn’t happened so far. It’s only been a few days, so maybe it’ll take longer to start feeling more results from it. Others have been describing much stronger results than what I’ve felt, but I guess everyone recovers at their own pace. I don’t think this 5-week cycle will cure everything, but hopefully I’ll make significant progress. Then it’ll be back to the herbal rotation, then probably another cycle of the prohormone.

[LetsGo]

The Ultrahard insomnia is not fun, but I’m getting through it. I’m having more down days than up days lately, and I think some of that has to do with my sleep. I’ve been averaging around 5 to 5.5 hours per night, and I tend to feel awful whenever I get less than 7 hours per night on a consistent basis. I feel horrible even though I got almost 8 hours last night.

I’m also not sure if I’m screwing up my diet. I have a lot of red lentil pasta and marinara sauce, and I’m not 100% sure if that’s okay to have. I also eat peanut butter (plain) for breakfast on most work days, because I wake up right before work and don’t have time to make anything. I’m not sure if the lentils and peanuts (which are legumes) are bad.

I’m ususally working out 4 days per week (5 is the goal, and it’s never less than 3 days), but I haven’t been loyal with the sprints. I guess even if I make myself do 4 sets of sprints instead of 6, that will be better than nothing. I read a study where something like this did boost the T of elderly men (1 session per 5 days) so this is definitely something that will help me.

Also read about how dehydration can raise cortisol, and that that ultimately leads to lower DHT. Need to drink more water; getting a nice glass pitcher filter thing soon. Normally I’m drinking seltzer waters throughout the day.

Also slowly easing into the cold showers. I think the hot water from normal showers can be mildly bad for the balls; I’m not sure if cold showers are truly better than “body temperature” showers but we’ll see. I just hate shivering and feeling cold, gasping for breath, instead of having a nice, hot relaxing shower, which is usually the nicest part of my day. So replacing that with something painful will be a chore, but I can do it.

I seem to have a lot of trouble with the whole nofap thing; I’m not sure how I’ll be able to get that fully under control and go for a month or two at a time. Earlier in this whole process it was super easy to go 10 days at a time because my libido was truly that low, so I guess it’s good that it’s at least higher than that, but still.

Also going to re-download the Headspace meditation app, even though it’s pretty pricey. I was reading some studies that show that meditating regularly lowers your cortisol and actually does boost testosterone a bit. So these are all things I need to do.

I just want to be recovered from all of this garbage already. Sucks when you have more downswings than upswings, and even during the upswings I usually don’t have sensitivity. But hopefully I can get everything fully on track.

[Cdsnuts]

The Ultrahard insomnia is not fun, but I’m getting through it. I’m having more down days than up days lately, and I think some of that has to do with my sleep. I’ve been averaging around 5 to 5.5 hours per night, and I tend to feel awful whenever I get less than 7 hours per night on a consistent basis. I feel horrible even though I got almost 8 hours last night.

I’m also not sure if I’m screwing up my diet. I have a lot of red lentil pasta and marinara sauce, and I’m not 100% sure if that’s okay to have. I also eat peanut butter (plain) for breakfast on most work days, because I wake up right before work and don’t have time to make anything. I’m not sure if the lentils and peanuts (which are legumes) are bad.

I’m ususally working out 4 days per week (5 is the goal, and it’s never less than 3 days), but I haven’t been loyal with the sprints. I guess even if I make myself do 4 sets of sprints instead of 6, that will be better than nothing. I read a study where something like this did boost the T of elderly men (1 session per 5 days) so this is definitely something that will help me.

Also read about how dehydration can raise cortisol, and that that ultimately leads to lower DHT. Need to drink more water; getting a nice glass pitcher filter thing soon. Normally I’m drinking seltzer waters throughout the day.

Also slowly easing into the cold showers. I think the hot water from normal showers can be mildly bad for the balls; I’m not sure if cold showers are truly better than “body temperature” showers but we’ll see. I just hate shivering and feeling cold, gasping for breath, instead of having a nice, hot relaxing shower, which is usually the nicest part of my day. So replacing that with something painful will be a chore, but I can do it.

I seem to have a lot of trouble with the whole nofap thing; I’m not sure how I’ll be able to get that fully under control and go for a month or two at a time. Earlier in this whole process it was super easy to go 10 days at a time because my libido was truly that low, so I guess it’s good that it’s at least higher than that, but still.

Also going to re-download the Headspace meditation app, even though it’s pretty pricey. I was reading some studies that show that meditating regularly lowers your cortisol and actually does boost testosterone a bit. So these are all things I need to do.

I just want to be recovered from all of this garbage already. Sucks when you have more downswings than upswings, and even during the upswings I usually don’t have sensitivity. But hopefully I can get everything fully on track.

Cold showers are a craft of their own. They're NO DOUBT better then room temperature water for all of the reasons listed on TMO, but do some of your own research to cement this into your mind. Yes, they suck at first, but once you start getting used to it, the invigoration and endorphins released by learning how to properly take a cold shower can't be matched any other way. A nice trick here is to do your breathing exercises right before going into the cold shower. Your body and mind will take to it much quicker this way and you won't be gasping and freaking out so much. One of the main points of the breathing exercises coupled with cold showers are to learn to control the adrenaline rush so that you get the benefits of it without suffering the downsides. This technique when learned and applied properly are truly life changing in their own right.

Concerning the insomnia from UH....you can either try backing down on the dose, or make sure you fully exhaust yourself during your workouts. This will eventual fade away and shouldn't be a problem once your system adjusts.

Some sprints are better then no sprints, keep that in mind. You don't even have to sprint to get in your HIIT portion of the weekly work out. Just go online and check out some of your other options concerning this aspect of working out. (High Intensity Interval Training)

For your water, your best option is to get one of these (https://amzn.to/37GUn4c) Definitely make sure you're staying hydrated.

For no fap, you need to learn and research "sexual transmutation" Use that energy for other aspects of your life. When you feel like spanking it, drop and do some push ups, or pull ups, or sprint. Use the energy for something that will benefit your life and propel you forward in your journey.

And to clarify, you're not going to feel 100% simply because your cycling. Not even close. it's just another tool in the box to get you to where you want to be. Don't get discouraged. Remember, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

Lastly, I'm not familiar with Headspace, rather I used Holosync. (https://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/calming-the-mind/) Before learning of Wim's method, I meditated with this program with great success.

You can get everything on track. Not hopefully....you WILL do it. Hopefully suggests that there are things out of your control that would have to get left to chance or luck to be completed. YOU are the only one stopping yourself.

[LetsGo]

I’m starting to think that the UltraHard might be suppressing me a bit. It’s been almost 4 weeks now, and over the last… week and change, I guess, I’ve had a downswing. (Weirdly, I had sexual dreams but no morning wood.) I’m thinking that once I hit the 4 week mark on Sunday, that that will be enough for this cycle. I’d switched to 4 pumps but maybe that was too much for me. Maybe next time I’ll only do 3 pumps per day.

It also seems like I tend to have downswings when I’m eating less calories.

Before I started finasteride in 2009, I was on sertraline (Zoloft) from 2001 - 2009, and that gave me some sexual sides, but nowhere near what finasteride did. Sometimes I wonder if I have post-SSRI syndrom as well, and if that means it would take longer to recover. Part of my problem with all of this is that doctors put me on these awful drugs so young that I didn’t have a true frame of reference for what “normal” was. I could have full orgasms on Zoloft; the only sexual side was that it took longer to come. But anyway, I’m never touching that type of stuff again. I’ve had to dump therapists who wanted to argue about me going back on SSRIs etc - I lose all trust for any therapist who tries to push those pills on me, especially after all I’ve been through with PFS.

I’ve been meditating, and I think that that’s been a positive for me. And doing cold showers, following the protocol’s guidelines for easing yourself into it over time with short periods at first. NoFap continues to be a struggle on days when I do have some libido. It always just seems to escalate from dating apps, even though the dating pool is so small up here and I need to put that energy into my new business so I can leave this lame city.

* One thing that bothers me is that the hair on the small of my back is still barely there - maybe 75% less hair than I used to have. Pre-fin, it was dense. I’d also estimate that my pubes are probably 33 to 50% less dense than pre-fin - still. I wish it would start to fill in again.

I’m not sure whether (gluten free) red lentil pasta is okay to eat, and I’m also not sure about rice. On the TMO website, it says to avoid grains, but under the carb backloading, it references eating gluten free pasta and rice for backloading, so I’m not sure about it. If I’m still messing up the diet then I need to fix that.

[LetsGo]

It’s been about another week. There are days when I have medium morning wood, and days when I don’t have it - today I didn’t have it.

There are also days where I have some libido and others when I don’t have any, but it was always like that during PFS. Although the no-libido periods were generally longer in the past.

It’s hard not to feel bad about the 12 or so wasted years and all the potential relationships that didn’t work out because of this. And my dad telling me I’m old now, washed up and all that.

I have been meditating every day which I think is positive. I don’t know that it will help in the PFS department, but I do feel calm. I will do the program but I don’t really feel that attached to the outcome today. It’s just part of my routine, although I’m not sure if I’m truly doing it right.

It sucks, but I missed out on the “good part” of life and will at best have to settle for what I can get, and just make peace with it. Lower my expectations and just try to do a better job with what I have. And minimize any interactions with my father - even the couple of minor ones each year make me unhappy.

I have been doing the HIIT on the 3 days per week where I don’t lift weights. Aka what I was supposed to have been doing. I don’t notice any real difference, though.

Also still not sure whether it is absolutely essential to do strict NoFap or not.

And I still have no idea if the gluten free red lentil pasta, brown rice, and legumes are okay to eat.

[LetsRecover]

Didn't you make noticable improvements since following the TMO protocol? For how long have you been doing it? I didn't feel much improvement after the juice feast, thus I started a water fast right now.

I think it depends on how your digestion is at the moment and how you/your body responds after eating these foods. I recommend being very strict with your diet (no carb backloading) until your digestion is somewhat normal again and you can tolerate these foods. Personally, I would avoid all these artificial products like glutenfree pasta. Rice should be ok, aswell as potatoes.

But I am definitely not an expert, CD or other more experienced guys know more about this.

[LetsGo]

Didn't you make noticable improvements since following the TMO protocol? For how long have you been doing it? I didn't feel much improvement after the juice feast, thus I started a water fast right now.

I think it depends on how your digestion is at the moment and how you/your body responds after eating these foods. I recommend being very strict with your diet (no carb backloading) until your digestion is somewhat normal again and you can tolerate these foods. Personally, I would avoid all these artificial products like glutenfree pasta. Rice should be ok, aswell as potatoes.

But I am definitely not an expert, CD or other more experienced guys know more about this.

I have made noticeable improvements, although sometimes I forget about them, which is part of why I’m keeping this log. But overall I feel disappointed with my progress.

I started parts of the program in March 2019, just doing a 1 week juice feast, then the herbs, and weightlifting. I felt like I was making progress and even avoided the problem of never being able to ejaculate from sex, although I still didn’t have an orgasm.

Around October 2019 or so I got mono for a month and had to stop working out, and I also stopped the herbs for like 1 month.

I restarted the herbs and then I also cut gluten, and about 2 weeks later started getting morning wood every day and started getting more upswings. I think I was on a good path until March 2020 when my gym closed due to Covid and I didn’t have an effective home workout plan for 6 months. I still got morning wood every day for 3 or 4 months, but then the benefits of my lifting subsided after so many weeks without lifting at all.

I restarted the workouts in September. And then just recently I have been meditating every day, and also doing HIIT in my non-lifting days at the gym.

I have been eating a lot of red lentil pasta with marinara for dinners, and peanut butter regularly (not in the same meal, obviously,) as well as rice and beans or chickpeas. I know that beans and chickpeas aren’t considered paleo but I’m not sure if they would prolong PFS. I’m struggling to really understand the diet-related rules.

I could be willing to eat egg whites if I really needed to do that for protein and had to cut out my major sources of protein if CD says I need to.

I feel like I have excellent digestion, and I make 2 - 3 bowel movements per day with no stomach pains, indigestion, heartburn, or constipation, ever. But I am not sure if my diet is really okay.

[LetsRecover]

What do you estimate how much progress did you make since starting the protocol? Why are you disappointed?

Your story is full of ups and downs in your symptoms. Maybe the mono and the pandemic have hindered your healing process because your main downswings seemed to happen after stopping working out, right? Who knows how you felt if covid didn't happen and you could have kept going.

How is your morning wood now after working out for 2 months? Is it back?

[LetsGo]

What do you estimate how much progress did you make since starting the protocol? Why are you disappointed?

Your story is full of ups and downs in your symptoms. Maybe the mono and the pandemic have hindered your healing process because your main downswings seemed to happen after stopping working out, right? Who knows how you felt if covid didn't happen and you could have kept going.

How is your morning wood now after working out for 2 months? Is it back?

Thanks for your reply. For me, I think the best way to describe it is symptom-by-symptom rather than an overall percentage. When I feel like I’m close to recovered, at that point I’ll have a better sense of what percentage I am, but I have no idea if it’s 25%, 50%, 60%… I just don’t know. It’s definitely not 75% because I don’t feel like I’m that close to recovered.

I feel like I still have some mental sides; fogginess sometimes, but I’m not sure if that’s from PFS or my general poor sleep habits.

I’ve been getting some morning wood recently, but it’s never rock-hard. And then there are also days when I don’t get morning wood at all, like when I woke up today. However, yesterday I screwed up and ate some gluten-free sugary cereal that I’d forgotten to throw out, and I think that’s what did it. I’m getting rid of the other box and I’m not buying any more. When I’m fully recovered in this area, I’ll have rock-hard morning wood 95-99% of mornings.

Libido-wise, things are definitely better than they had been, but I have only had a few brief periods of maybe up to a week where I had pre-fin levels of libido. The last time that happened was early during Covid, even though I’d stopped working out. Having more consistent libido is something that I really miss, and I feel like it would give me so much more drive in life. Hugely important.

And then the biggest problem for me is having non-orgasmic ejaculations - that’s been the area where I really haven’t seen consistent progress. Although, a few days ago I did actually feel some pleasure. Just enough to remind me of what it’s supposed to feel like. I’m taking it as a good sign but I want it to become consistent. My progress in this area seems to hover around 0% to 25%, usually 0%.

I’d say I’m disappointed because I still don’t 100% know if I’m doing everything right; if there are some foods I’m eating that I should not be eating that are holding me back. The Joovv red light helps but it’s not the epic game-changer I’d hoped it would be. And I haven’t felt long stretches of consistent upswings in awhile. I feel like there must be some mistake I’ve been making that’s holding me back; I’m not sure if it’s legumes and gluten free red lentil pasta.

[LetsGo]

Okay, so I think the red lentil pasta has been messing me up badly. It’s from Barilla, and they make it on a dedicated gluten free line, so I trusted it.

But gluten free line means it’s not a gluten free facility, which means there are wheat pasta machines in the same big room, and as millions of noodles land, glutenous dust fills the air and some gets on the red lentil noodles. It’s small enough that it still counts as gluten free, legally, but I know from experience that I am more sensitive to gluten than that. It can be up to 20 parts per million gluten and still use the gluten free label, but unfortunately that’s not good enough for my system.

Plenty of “gluten free” things destroy my libido and morning wood for several days. One example is that “gluten free” chex cereal from a week or two ago.

I have been buying my groceries mostly at Walmart through their app for over a year, and I scrolled through my purchase history. Right around when I started eating the red lentil pasta 5 - 6 days per week was when I had a major decline during lockdown, the one that partially reversed itself when I resumed working out.

Previously I would eat it once or twice per week, but if it causes problems then I want to eliminate it from my diet altogether, not just restrict it to one or two days per week.

So let’s see if, in a week or two, I start getting better morning wood and a nice upswing after removing this from my diet. I have a feeling that this could be a turning point for me where I can accelerate my healing progress.

[LetsGo]

I started getting better morning wood the last couple of days, where I know that I have morning wood without having to physically check. But it goes soft very quickly after I wake up. So I think cutting the “gluten free” pasta out of my diet has been a good thing.

Libido is zero, ejaculatory anhedonia is at its maximum, and I don’t feel very energetic. Probably feel a bit foggy as well. My upswings tend to happen somewhat rarely, unfortunately, and I don’t feel like I have tons of forward momentum.

Last night, I had a bizarre dream where CD was there giving me advice outside of my parents house for some reason, and then he drove away. So I’m probably thinking about all this stuff too much, if it’s showing up in my dreams. But I don’t want to “set it and forget it” if there are elements of my game that aren’t up to par.

I probably need to overhaul my diet in a major way. It’s frustrating because I’d like to be able to have a life in the tail end of my youth and I just want to get past all of this stuff.

[LetsGo]

Morning wood disappeared. I think the gluten-free buckwheat noodles might not be gluten-free enough for me. Super annoying.

[Maxout777]

Morning wood disappeared. I think the gluten-free buckwheat noodles might not be gluten-free enough for me. Super annoying.

Morning wood came and went for me many times during my recovery. It’s hard to attribute it to a certain food you’re eating. It’s probably one of the most ebb and flow symptoms I had, to be honest. Don’t beat yourself up over eating something and thinking that’s the cause of it.

[LetsGo]

Morning wood came and went for me many times during my recovery. It’s hard to attribute it to a certain food you’re eating. It’s probably one of the most ebb and flow symptoms I had, to be honest. Don’t beat yourself up over eating something and thinking that’s the cause of it.

Thanks for the feedback. I feel like with the amount of time I’ve been working on this, if I was close to being cured I would be a lot better in terms of my symptoms.

I had no morning wood for 6 months, except for a few brief periods, when I was eating red lentil pasta most days. When I stopped, after a week or two it started coming back. Also I had had morning wood consistently for months before I started the red lentil pasta. I feel like I’m highly sensitive to a lot of foods and I need to focus on extremely basic, unprocessed foods as much as possible.

In 2021 I would like to regain my ability to feel orgasms again, and get back to having consistent morning wood. Then get my libido back as well... I will have to do whatever I have to do to make that happen.

[Maxout777]

Thanks for the feedback. I feel like with the amount of time I’ve been working on this, if I was close to being cured I would be a lot better in terms of my symptoms.

I had no morning wood for 6 months, except for a few brief periods, when I was eating red lentil pasta most days. When I stopped, after a week or two it started coming back. Also I had had morning wood consistently for months before I started the red lentil pasta. I feel like I’m highly sensitive to a lot of foods and I need to focus on extremely basic, unprocessed foods as much as possible.

In 2021 I would like to regain my ability to feel orgasms again, and get back to having consistent morning wood. Then get my libido back as well... I will have to do whatever I have to do to make that happen.

Totally understand. This is a super frustrating condition with no rhyme or reason as to how it goes when you're thick in the shit.

Might be time to focus more on gut. I had the majority of my success regaining orgasm strength when I added 4-Andro to my cycles in the third or fourth one (can't remember, but it's written on here). Might be worth a try if you've never gone that route.

[Karlucchi]

Totally understand. This is a super frustrating condition with no rhyme or reason as to how it goes when you're thick in the shit.

Might be time to focus more on gut. I had the majority of my success regaining orgasm strength when I added 4-Andro to my cycles in the third or fourth one (can't remember, but it's written on here). Might be worth a try if you've never gone that route.

Hey Maxout777, did you keep a thread/log of how things went for you when you added 4-Andro? I have some coming in the mail and am on the fence on whether I should add it to my current cycle. I'm leaning towards doing it but was curious to see how it went for you.

[Karlucchi]

Hey Maxout777, did you keep a thread/log of how things went for you when you added 4-Andro? I have some coming in the mail and am on the fence on whether I should add it to my current cycle. I'm leaning towards doing it but was curious to see how it went for you.

Never mind, I found it. I think I'll throw in 4-andro and see how I feel.

[Maxout777]

Never mind, I found it. I think I'll throw in 4-andro and see how I feel.

I think it was mainly in my initial thread, but I could be wrong. There may be a standalone.

Just start slow on the dosage and move up on how you feel (4 Andro that is).

[Karlucchi]

Sounds good. I got 100 mg tablets. I think I'll start with 1 a day and see how I feel from there. I'm also on 5 pumps of Ultra Hard.

[LetsGo]

Totally understand. This is a super frustrating condition with no rhyme or reason as to how it goes when you're thick in the shit.

Might be time to focus more on gut. I had the majority of my success regaining orgasm strength when I added 4-Andro to my cycles in the third or fourth one (can't remember, but it's written on here). Might be worth a try if you've never gone that route.

Yeah, I definitely want to get things straightened out in the gut department. I’m not sure if I would need to do another “juice feast” but when I did that I didn’t feel any different. The last time I had consistent morning wood (for about 6 months,) it happened from cutting out all gluten, and it took about two weeks. Maybe focusing on the right foods and only eating them, will get me back to that place. I think I may need to get rid of my “natural” peanut butter, but I struggle to find things I can eat. Maybe I shouldn’t be eating anything that isn’t a whole food, at this point.

When I was eating the buckwheat noodles, my bowel movements became gray, and somewhat less solid. Now it’s no longer gray, but it still looks less solid. So I feel like it was messing up my gut significantly, and it may take another week or two to get back to normal. I want to figure out exactly what I need to eat, and then be like a dog - eating the exact same thing(s) every day. And then when I’m back in NYC, figure out a few restaurant meals I can have at specific places, and that’s it until I’m better.

When it’s time for me to do another prohoromone cycle (the first one didn’t seem to do anything, but I was eating red lentil pasta which I now think was harming my gut,) I will add 4-Andro if CDsnuts says it’s okay. Thanks for that tip! Part of me wants to get consistent morning wood / proper gut before I jump back into prohormones, so that I can really benefit from the cycle. At that point, then I would hopefully be able to reach the next level, and just rinse and repeat the cycles + time off until I was healed.

[Cdsnuts]

Yeah, I definitely want to get things straightened out in the gut department. I’m not sure if I would need to do another “juice feast” but when I did that I didn’t feel any different. The last time I had consistent morning wood (for about 6 months,) it happened from cutting out all gluten, and it took about two weeks. Maybe focusing on the right foods and only eating them, will get me back to that place. I think I may need to get rid of my “natural” peanut butter, but I struggle to find things I can eat. Maybe I shouldn’t be eating anything that isn’t a whole food, at this point.

When I was eating the buckwheat noodles, my bowel movements became gray, and somewhat less solid. Now it’s no longer gray, but it still looks less solid. So I feel like it was messing up my gut significantly, and it may take another week or two to get back to normal. I want to figure out exactly what I need to eat, and then be like a dog - eating the exact same thing(s) every day. And then when I’m back in NYC, figure out a few restaurant meals I can have at specific places, and that’s it until I’m better.

When it’s time for me to do another prohoromone cycle (the first one didn’t seem to do anything, but I was eating red lentil pasta which I now think was harming my gut,) I will add 4-Andro if CDsnuts says it’s okay. Thanks for that tip! Part of me wants to get consistent morning wood / proper gut before I jump back into prohormones, so that I can really benefit from the cycle. At that point, then I would hopefully be able to reach the next level, and just rinse and repeat the cycles + time off until I was healed.

No need to wait until you have morning wood to run the cycle. Running the cycle will help you achieve this goal a bit quicker then not. Adding in the four is fine.

[LetsGo]

No need to wait until you have morning wood to run the cycle. Running the cycle will help you achieve this goal a bit quicker then not. Adding in the four is fine.

Thanks, will do. When I ran the cycle the first time, I didn’t feel any different, aside from having worse insomnia than normal. Not sure if my diet was preventing me from making progress.

My hope was that it’d trigger a major upswing and I would feel semi-cured for a time, and then have a higher baseline and just keep building off of that until I’m cured. But for me, the downswings outnumber the upswings and they are generally longer as well. I always feel like I must be doing things wrong.

[Turnover25]

Thanks, will do. When I ran the cycle the first time, I didn’t feel any different, aside from having worse insomnia than normal. Not sure if my diet was preventing me from making progress.

My hope was that it’d trigger a major upswing and I would feel semi-cured for a time, and then have a higher baseline and just keep building off of that until I’m cured. But for me, the downswings outnumber the upswings and they are generally longer as well. I always feel like I must be doing things wrong.

Cycles for me tend to be an initial upswing followed by weeks of either nothing or harsh downswings. I think you’re doing fine my man.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks, will do. When I ran the cycle the first time, I didn’t feel any different, aside from having worse insomnia than normal. Not sure if my diet was preventing me from making progress.

My hope was that it’d trigger a major upswing and I would feel semi-cured for a time, and then have a higher baseline and just keep building off of that until I’m cured. But for me, the downswings outnumber the upswings and they are generally longer as well. I always feel like I must be doing things wrong.

Believe me, everyone does until they start to get some traction. As long as you're doing everything that is outlined, you'll start to swing things in the right direction.

[LetsGo]

Believe me, everyone does until they start to get some traction. As long as you're doing everything that is outlined, you'll start to swing things in the right direction.

Thanks, I just made some changes with my diet, and I think that will be the decisive factor. It’s the hardest part for me.

I removed the peanut butter and now have raw almond butter (the only ingredient is raw almonds) instead. Breakfasts are egg whites and bananas now, and I have protein powder on the way.

I don’t think the red lentil pasta was my problem, so I will still have it sometimes on carb backloading days.

I most likely hadn’t been getting enough protein or calories, since my arms haven’t really grown in a long time. I’m adding another 50 grams of protein per day and am logging literally everything I eat to make sure I’m in a small calorie surplus. The idea is to gain muscle and not much fat. When I’m gaining more muscle again I will have more upswings, and consistent morning wood again.

I also ordered this “Snowball” underwear which has cold packs you put in the freezer and they chill your balls for 30 mins at a time. So you do that for 2 hours per day (not all at once) and over time it’s supposed to help your test production.

I can’t wait for an upswing.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks, I just made some changes with my diet, and I think that will be the decisive factor. It’s the hardest part for me.

I removed the peanut butter and now have raw almond butter (the only ingredient is raw almonds) instead. Breakfasts are egg whites and bananas now, and I have protein powder on the way.

I don’t think the red lentil pasta was my problem, so I will still have it sometimes on carb backloading days.

I most likely hadn’t been getting enough protein or calories, since my arms haven’t really grown in a long time. I’m adding another 50 grams of protein per day and am logging literally everything I eat to make sure I’m in a small calorie surplus. The idea is to gain muscle and not much fat. When I’m gaining more muscle again I will have more upswings, and consistent morning wood again.

I also ordered this “Snowball” underwear which has cold packs you put in the freezer and they chill your balls for 30 mins at a time. So you do that for 2 hours per day (not all at once) and over time it’s supposed to help your test production.

I can’t wait for an upswing.

Egg yolks are your friends. You should be eating them as well.

[Turnover25]

Egg yolks are your friends. You should be eating them as well.

If you’re that worried about your diet I would probably also drop the almond butter and just eat almonds. I’m not extreme about my diet but nut butters are still something I avoid, all natural or not.

If you have everything that you eat logged you might as well post it here so people can give you some feedback. Couldn’t hurt,

Edit: my bad CD I meant to reply to LetsGo

[Maxout777]

I drink egg yolk shots in the morning a few times a week. Best way to get the egg and no time used cooking the egg, and/or ruining the nutrients by cooking it too long.

[Turnover25]

I drink egg yolk shots in the morning a few times a week. Best way to get the egg and no time used cooking the egg, and/or ruining the nutrients by cooking it too long.

Right after eating your bowl of nails for breakfast 😂

[Maxout777]

Right after eating your bowl of nails for breakfast ��

Lol - I didn't intend for that to sound so manly but well played! I tend to follow it up with a few shards of broken glass for extra emphasis.

[Turnover25]

Lol - I didn't intend for that to sound so manly but well played! I tend to follow it up with a few shards of broken glass for extra emphasis.

Solid choice. I’ve heard it’s great for the gut lining.

[LetsGo]

If you’re that worried about your diet I would probably also drop the almond butter and just eat almonds. I’m not extreme about my diet but nut butters are still something I avoid, all natural or not.

If you have everything that you eat logged you might as well post it here so people can give you some feedback. Couldn’t hurt,

Edit: my bad CD I meant to reply to LetsGo

Yeah I guess so. It feels like there’s nothing appetizing I can eat anymore. I don’t see why it would be okay to eat raw, but not raw + blended into a paste, but usually it’s better for me to do the opposite of what I think is right.

Posting my diet here could be good in the abstract, but I’m really not feeling up to it today. There will be lots of do this not that, etc, and I already feel like I’m being pulled in too many directions. Over the course of the day I gradually became more and more filled with thoughts of self-harm, and it was so rough in the gym and walking home. Just feelings of - even a full recovery would be too late for me because I’m too old, and I should have done it earlier when I still had a chance at a normal life.

I could post diet things in the future but I don’t feel up to it now. And I guess it also makes more sense to post a longer time’s worth of data because if I make it part of my daily routine people aren’t going to like that.

[Turnover25]

Yeah I guess so. It feels like there’s nothing appetizing I can eat anymore. I don’t see why it would be okay to eat raw, but not raw + blended into a paste, but usually it’s better for me to do the opposite of what I think is right.

Posting my diet here could be good in the abstract, but I’m really not feeling up to it today. There will be lots of do this not that, etc, and I already feel like I’m being pulled in too many directions. Over the course of the day I gradually became more and more filled with thoughts of self-harm, and it was so rough in the gym and walking home. Just feelings of - even a full recovery would be too late for me because I’m too old, and I should have done it earlier when I still had a chance at a normal life.

I could post diet things in the future but I don’t feel up to it now. And I guess it also makes more sense to post a longer time’s worth of data because if I make it part of my daily routine people aren’t going to like that.

Sometimes certain ingredients or preservatives aren’t listed on the bottle. Sometimes the process or storing it can make it less than ideal. Might not be the butter itself at all but the process. Kinda like the concept of how storing things in plastic bags can cause whatever is in the plastic to seep into your food. Which is why I use glass. I could be wrong and it could be fine but I can’t imagine swapping out for almonds wouldn’t be a better alternative.

Just do it whenever you’re ready bro, or not at all. We’re here to help tho. You also sound like you may just have depression in general, maybe go out and start a new hobby. Get a new job, find ways to be happy while you’re stuck in this mess. Depression is a thing outside of PFS as well.

[MungYarlon]

I was just going to comment that Turnover. I've spoken to many people with depression throughout the years Letsgo, and while I can't begin to understand what many have gone through, I can tell you that they were all grateful that they received medical help.

[LetsGo]

Sometimes certain ingredients or preservatives aren’t listed on the bottle. Sometimes the process or storing it can make it less than ideal. Might not be the butter itself at all but the process. Kinda like the concept of how storing things in plastic bags can cause whatever is in the plastic to seep into your food. Which is why I use glass. I could be wrong and it could be fine but I can’t imagine swapping out for almonds wouldn’t be a better alternative.

Just do it whenever you’re ready bro, or not at all. We’re here to help tho. You also sound like you may just have depression in general, maybe go out and start a new hobby. Get a new job, find ways to be happy while you’re stuck in this mess. Depression is a thing outside of PFS as well.

That all makes sense; I was just thinking I could enjoy sliced apples with almond butter, but the almond butter could still have industrial BS in it. It’s at least in a glass jar, for what that’s worth. It has a lot of nostalgia value for me because I used to eat that a lot as a kid (except with peanut butter.) I wonder if I can have unsweetened almond milk, maybe not…

I agree about glass being better than plastic; it took me a long time to find a water filter that is mostly glass and not plastic. (The water in my area tastes off, and I won’t drink it without it being filtered.) I do have whole almonds as well, they just don’t go as well with apples but of course that’s not essential, and I need to eat for my goals, not enjoyment. If I ate for enjoyment, I’d be 800 lbs, scooping handfuls of chocolate cake into my mouth as I ordered my second pizza of the day.

I don’t know if I’ll get to a place emotionally where I won’t feel like everything was a waste, and that I’m just too late. I don’t feel too old, but all of my hopes are on this idea that I can turn things around and be successful and meet someone a bit younger than me and that things will work out, and it’ll be basically the same as if I’d met her when I was ten years younger. (Some women like guys who are a bit older than them, and 2 years ago there was a woman at my old gym who was very interested in me and she didn’t even know about my income potential. The women I’ve dated up here who wanted to be with me, reading between the lines, they were into me thinking that I’d transition to my actual career and then be successful.)

I desperately need to get out of my current living situation (alone in a city I hate) and job. My self esteem was so battered, and I was in an abusive situation at home when PFS hit and it took me many years to get out of there. I was suffering badly from PFS, or else I would’ve been emotionally strong enough to have gotten out in a better way. (My free testosterone was at chemical castration levels.)

I ended up taking a very shitty entry-level job that would be okay for a 23 year old, but I was 11 years older than that, with a graduate degree in an unrelated profession. So now I answer phonecalls and make a pathetic salary. And I potentially had a job in my field I could have gotten in 2017, but I couldn’t bring myself to go to the interview and embarass myself. Now it’s 3 years later and I’m still in this horrible job, I've made zero friends here (although I did date a bit here and there when I had flashes of libido,) and I’m long overdue for leaving. Some months ago I stupidly reached out to my dad, who got enraged at the mention of leaving because it’s "a secure job," and he views me as a colossal fuckup and failure who needs to stay within the state system and prioritize job safety over everything else, period. But there are no quality jobs I can lateral to, and especially not down in NYC where I want to live. So I have to leave, it just feels impossible. It felt like a crazy miracle leaving my folks and I feel like it’ll take another miracle to get out of here. When things are open again in NYC, I want to go join a photography meetup and do improv comedy (even though I know I’m too old, at least I won’t have the burden of dreaming of SNL or something,) and hang out with my friends, and make new ones. My world right now is so dark and small.

So I’m working on leaving, for real this time. I'm getting everything ready, and once I get my malpractice insurance and find someone to help me with the retainer agreements and disengagement letters I’ll need for clients, and a few other things, I’ll start running my ads. I already have a temporary shared office that I go to on the weekends, got professional photos, made an okayish website (that I’ll need to keep tweaking,) studied an enormous 500+ page treatise that explains 90% of everything I didn’t know, have 2 people I can ask if I really get stuck, and I know how to do all the substantive work from extensive volunteering, doing the exact things I’d be doing for money. I do not need “at least five years of experience” like my father (who knows nothing about this) insists. Hopefully I can start testing my ads in a week or two. There’s just a ton of small roadblocks that continually pop up, and I know the ads and website are going to need tweaking. (I will eventually hire someone to make a better website.)

In theory, when the ads are working, I should be able to adjust my workflow just by dialing my ad spending. (But if it was this easy, why are so many people doing this work as employees, or quitting the profession, instead of making a good living doing it for themselves?) Once all of that is sorted out and I have some clients lined up, I would like to gear up to leave sooner rather than later, and look for out of state real estate to finally invest in (I’ve been reading books and whatnot on that for 2 years, plus more when I was a teenager.) Then I will also need to learn how to do some consumer advocacy stuff, which should be able to more than double my income over time - it’s somewhat harder and most people in this field don’t bother to learn it. Anyway, if I can do that, theoretically, I can make bank. But launching the ads is going to be like jumping out of a plane, and I know they’re not going to work without tweaks, and that I’ll have to fight the urge to declare it all a failure and quit instead of tweaking the ads.

I have a therapist appointment lined up on Monday, but I had just picked someone at random and I’m not sure he’s going to be a good fit for me after talking to him on the phone. Not sure if I’ll go see him anyway or cancel and try to find someone else ASAP. Also I know they all demand that I go on SSRIs when I’m feeling down, and I don’t like paying and taking time out of my week to argue with someone for 60 minutes about why I won’t take SSRIs. I’m just going to ask him for help dealing with the stuff I need to deal with to get out of this job and back to NYC (which I saw a different thereapist for 2 years ago, but back then I had a shittier plan that I wish people had talked me out of.)

- - - Updated - - -


I was just going to comment that Turnover. I've spoken to many people with depression throughout the years Letsgo, and while I can't begin to understand what many have gone through, I can tell you that they were all grateful that they received medical help.

Thanks for the kind words. I have a therapist appointment on Monday, but I always get into arguments with them when they start telling me to take SSRIs. Most of the time I’m not low like I am now, but sometimes I am, and at that point they always go “yep, you need to be on SSRIs” and they ultimately end up dumping me when I refuse. I’d like to find a good therapist who won’t do that.

[Turnover25]

That all makes sense; I was just thinking I could enjoy sliced apples with almond butter, but the almond butter could still have industrial BS in it. It’s at least in a glass jar, for what that’s worth. It has a lot of nostalgia value for me because I used to eat that a lot as a kid (except with peanut butter.) I wonder if I can have unsweetened almond milk, maybe not…

I agree about glass being better than plastic; it took me a long time to find a water filter that is mostly glass and not plastic. (The water in my area tastes off, and I won’t drink it without it being filtered.) I do have whole almonds as well, they just don’t go as well with apples but of course that’s not essential, and I need to eat for my goals, not enjoyment. If I ate for enjoyment, I’d be 800 lbs, scooping handfuls of chocolate cake into my mouth as I ordered my second pizza of the day.

I don’t know if I’ll get to a place emotionally where I won’t feel like everything was a waste, and that I’m just too late. I don’t feel too old, but all of my hopes are on this idea that I can turn things around and be successful and meet someone a bit younger than me and that things will work out, and it’ll be basically the same as if I’d met her when I was ten years younger. (Some women like guys who are a bit older than them, and 2 years ago there was a woman at my old gym who was very interested in me and she didn’t even know about my income potential. The women I’ve dated up here who wanted to be with me, reading between the lines, they were into me thinking that I’d transition to my actual career and then be successful.)

I desperately need to get out of my current living situation (alone in a city I hate) and job. My self esteem was so battered, and I was in an abusive situation at home when PFS hit and it took me many years to get out of there. I was suffering badly from PFS, or else I would’ve been emotionally strong enough to have gotten out in a better way. (My free testosterone was at chemical castration levels.)

I ended up taking a very shitty entry-level job that would be okay for a 23 year old, but I was 11 years older than that, with a graduate degree in an unrelated profession. So now I answer phonecalls and make a pathetic salary. And I potentially had a job in my field I could have gotten in 2017, but I couldn’t bring myself to go to the interview and embarass myself. Now it’s 3 years later and I’m still in this horrible job, I've made zero friends here (although I did date a bit here and there when I had flashes of libido,) and I’m long overdue for leaving. Some months ago I stupidly reached out to my dad, who got enraged at the mention of leaving because it’s "a secure job," and he views me as a colossal fuckup and failure who needs to stay within the state system and prioritize job safety over everything else, period. But there are no quality jobs I can lateral to, and especially not down in NYC where I want to live. So I have to leave, it just feels impossible. It felt like a crazy miracle leaving my folks and I feel like it’ll take another miracle to get out of here. When things are open again in NYC, I want to go join a photography meetup and do improv comedy (even though I know I’m too old, at least I won’t have the burden of dreaming of SNL or something,) and hang out with my friends, and make new ones. My world right now is so dark and small.

So I’m working on leaving, for real this time. I'm getting everything ready, and once I get my malpractice insurance and find someone to help me with the retainer agreements and disengagement letters I’ll need for clients, and a few other things, I’ll start running my ads. I already have a temporary shared office that I go to on the weekends, got professional photos, made an okayish website (that I’ll need to keep tweaking,) studied an enormous 500+ page treatise that explains 90% of everything I didn’t know, have 2 people I can ask if I really get stuck, and I know how to do all the substantive work from extensive volunteering, doing the exact things I’d be doing for money. I do not need “at least five years of experience” like my father (who knows nothing about this) insists. Hopefully I can start testing my ads in a week or two. There’s just a ton of small roadblocks that continually pop up, and I know the ads and website are going to need tweaking. (I will eventually hire someone to make a better website.)

In theory, when the ads are working, I should be able to adjust my workflow just by dialing my ad spending. (But if it was this easy, why are so many people doing this work as employees, or quitting the profession, instead of making a good living doing it for themselves?) Once all of that is sorted out and I have some clients lined up, I would like to gear up to leave sooner rather than later, and look for out of state real estate to finally invest in (I’ve been reading books and whatnot on that for 2 years, plus more when I was a teenager.) Then I will also need to learn how to do some consumer advocacy stuff, which should be able to more than double my income over time - it’s somewhat harder and most people in this field don’t bother to learn it. Anyway, if I can do that, theoretically, I can make bank. But launching the ads is going to be like jumping out of a plane, and I know they’re not going to work without tweaks, and that I’ll have to fight the urge to declare it all a failure and quit instead of tweaking the ads.

I have a therapist appointment lined up on Monday, but I had just picked someone at random and I’m not sure he’s going to be a good fit for me after talking to him on the phone. Not sure if I’ll go see him anyway or cancel and try to find someone else ASAP. Also I know they all demand that I go on SSRIs when I’m feeling down, and I don’t like paying and taking time out of my week to argue with someone for 60 minutes about why I won’t take SSRIs. I’m just going to ask him for help dealing with the stuff I need to deal with to get out of this job and back to NYC (which I saw a different thereapist for 2 years ago, but back then I had a shittier plan that I wish people had talked me out of.)

- - - Updated - - -



Thanks for the kind words. I have a therapist appointment on Monday, but I always get into arguments with them when they start telling me to take SSRIs. Most of the time I’m not low like I am now, but sometimes I am, and at that point they always go “yep, you need to be on SSRIs” and they ultimately end up dumping me when I refuse. I’d like to find a good therapist who won’t do that.

Well brother I’m gonna be honest with you, I really sympathize with you. I feel for you for the time you feel like you lost and I know how much of a struggle all this is. Unfortunately that isn’t going to help you my man, but I can share some of my own experiences cuz I think they may be of some help.

I really do think that your attitude is part of the problem, not that you have a shitty attitude or anything but it doesn’t seem like you’re very positive about all this and honestly that’s huge. The only person who can help you is you, so you have to be in your own corner and realize you can do everything you just told me. But stuff like your age, who cares man. People start new hobbies at all walks of life. My hockey team has 60 year old dudes who started playing in their 50’s. Find what you enjoy then do that. Also, your age isn’t going to deter women. Your attitude will though. You sound like a good person who’s accomplished a lot in life and you need to wear that on your sleeve and girls will be attracted to that. Woman love confidence, that’s about it. Unless you’re insanely unattractive.

When I graduated high school about 10 years ago, I had a 6 month period before shipping out to the military where I worked 2nd shift, and just waited to leave. I never saw friends, never did anything I liked and just wasted my life away. I was 18, free of PFS and I was still more depressed than I am today with PFS. Depression can manifest if you’re not getting out there and doing things you enjoy, or allowing yourself to be shackled by your thoughts like you seem to be. I mean that in the nicest way possible of course.

This year around Jan/Feb I was an absolute wreck. I eventually graduated school and I’ve taken a lot of leaps this year I was terrified to take because of PFS but I took the leaps and they paid off. If they didn’t work out, the outcome was never as bad as I was dreading. At least I tried. I got a full time job which I was terrified to fail at because of brain fog, still took it and I’m doing great. I joined a hockey team and was scared for the same reasons and I’m so glad I did. And now I’m seeing a girl who I was terrified to start something with because of fear that brain fog would prevent me from holding conversations or that I wouldn’t be able to fuck because I can’t get hard. It was all in my head and it’s going great.

I don’t mean to be preachy but I care about the guys on this forum and I want you to feel better, PFS will make things hard but if you hold yourself back then you’ve really lost. Just my two cents at least.

[Zonz]

Only God will decide what the right path for you is. If you fail, that is what he wanted. If you succeed, that is what he wanted as well. It’s up to you to decide what that means.

Living in a big city is not only bad for your sexual sides due to pollution (my sides improve a lot in the countryside, and many others have reported this as well) but also bad for your mentality. In a city you are surrounded by some people that live and die without a moment of genuine fulfillment, in part due to living in an unhealthy environment and in part due to their never-satiated greed. You don’t want to become a slave to those people, nor do you want to become those people. If you don’t remain disciplined and diligent you yourself will fall into that state. You can live where you choose though, this is just simply my advice.

We have already disobeyed God’s path by using man made pharmaceutical drugs to achieve beauty when in fact we were already blessed with beauty to begin with. But in a PFS state you can even further slip into a state of manic beyond repent. Watch yourself, remain diligent and aware. Work through the brain fog and be good and disciplined, every step of the way. Even when it’s inconvenient. And work hard.

Therapy is a hit or miss, as you said many are not there for you and will prescribe you pharmaceutical drugs which will make you worse in the long run.

I wish you a fulfilling life and a recovery from PFS.

[LetsGo]

Well brother I’m gonna be honest with you, I really sympathize with you. I feel for you for the time you feel like you lost and I know how much of a struggle all this is. Unfortunately that isn’t going to help you my man, but I can share some of my own experiences cuz I think they may be of some help.

I really do think that your attitude is part of the problem, not that you have a shitty attitude or anything but it doesn’t seem like you’re very positive about all this and honestly that’s huge. The only person who can help you is you, so you have to be in your own corner and realize you can do everything you just told me. But stuff like your age, who cares man. People start new hobbies at all walks of life. My hockey team has 60 year old dudes who started playing in their 50’s. Find what you enjoy then do that. Also, your age isn’t going to deter women. Your attitude will though. You sound like a good person who’s accomplished a lot in life and you need to wear that on your sleeve and girls will be attracted to that. Woman love confidence, that’s about it. Unless you’re insanely unattractive.

When I graduated high school about 10 years ago, I had a 6 month period before shipping out to the military where I worked 2nd shift, and just waited to leave. I never saw friends, never did anything I liked and just wasted my life away. I was 18, free of PFS and I was still more depressed than I am today with PFS. Depression can manifest if you’re not getting out there and doing things you enjoy, or allowing yourself to be shackled by your thoughts like you seem to be. I mean that in the nicest way possible of course.

This year around Jan/Feb I was an absolute wreck. I eventually graduated school and I’ve taken a lot of leaps this year I was terrified to take because of PFS but I took the leaps and they paid off. If they didn’t work out, the outcome was never as bad as I was dreading. At least I tried. I got a full time job which I was terrified to fail at because of brain fog, still took it and I’m doing great. I joined a hockey team and was scared for the same reasons and I’m so glad I did. And now I’m seeing a girl who I was terrified to start something with because of fear that brain fog would prevent me from holding conversations or that I wouldn’t be able to fuck because I can’t get hard. It was all in my head and it’s going great.

I don’t mean to be preachy but I care about the guys on this forum and I want you to feel better, PFS will make things hard but if you hold yourself back then you’ve really lost. Just my two cents at least.

My mood goes up and own in waves; some days I feel really bad, and a day or two later I could feel full of optimism. On the bad days I really don’t have any positivity, and for sure that’s something to work on. Most of the time I’m not feeling pessimistic, but I hear what you’re saying and I agree that confidence / self-esteem are important things to work on. That’s part of why I’m not sure I found the right therapist, but I guess we’ll see how it goes with him. Focusing on launching my biz and getting back where I belong.

Just to reemphasize, I have dated women before and during PFS. It’s not that I’m worried no one would want me, it’s a sort of illogical thought that you have to date someone your own age - which would mean having kids immediately, or never having kids. My father instilled this weird preoccupation with age and I want to get out from under that as well.

Thanks for your kind words and I’m rooting for you as well, bro.

[LetsGo]

Only God will decide what the right path for you is. If you fail, that is what he wanted. If you succeed, that is what he wanted as well. It’s up to you to decide what that means.

Living in a big city is not only bad for your sexual sides due to pollution (my sides improve a lot in the countryside, and many others have reported this as well) but also bad for your mentality. In a city you are surrounded by some people that live and die without a moment of genuine fulfillment, in part due to living in an unhealthy environment and in part due to their never-satiated greed. You don’t want to become a slave to those people, nor do you want to become those people. If you don’t remain disciplined and diligent you yourself will fall into that state. You can live where you choose though, this is just simply my advice.

We have already disobeyed God’s path by using man made pharmaceutical drugs to achieve beauty when in fact we were already blessed with beauty to begin with. But in a PFS state you can even further slip into a state of manic beyond repent. Watch yourself, remain diligent and aware. Work through the brain fog and be good and disciplined, every step of the way. Even when it’s inconvenient. And work hard.

Therapy is a hit or miss, as you said many are not there for you and will prescribe you pharmaceutical drugs which will make you worse in the long run.

I wish you a fulfilling life and a recovery from PFS.

I appreciate that you’re wishing me well, and I wish you well too. Please don’t take what I’m about to say the wrong way, but there are a bunch of things you wrote that I wanted to comment on, because I have a different perspective.

I feel that recovery is entirely within my own control and I do not believe in predestination, or that divine powers control outcomes. I don’t believe in a supernatural force controlling what I do, or the outcomes of my actions, or that there is a grand plan that was set out in advance. I enthusiastically celebrate you having those beliefs, but they’re quite different than mine. We definitely don’t share similar religious beliefs.

Reading between the lines a bit, I feel like you’re saying that there’s doubt and uncertainty about recovering. That it’s all up to some higher power, rather than my own actions. I disagree - this board is about taking charge and taking ownership. If I don’t recover, it’ll be because I gave up or I didn’t follow the directions properly, not because of sins, destiny, religion, or where I choose to live.

I do not think that it is healthy to think of PFS as a curse, or as a punishment for the sin of vanity or anything along those lines. I found that to be a little hurtful. Part of the healing process, for me anyway, is learning to forgive one’s self for taking finasteride, and accepting it. Unconditional self-acceptance. We took a risk, and it didn’t pay off, but that doesn’t mean we were morally worse than someone who dyes their prematurely graying hair, or someone who gets a nose job. If that was how the universe worked, then guys who get hair transplants or liposuction would get PFS. But that’s not how PFS works, it works biologically, through the laws of science.

I also have a different perspective when it comes to cities. I was born in NYC and lived in or next to it for +90% of my life. NYC is my real home, period. You telling me to live out in the countryside would be like me trying to convince you to convert to a different religion.

I’m not letting PFS define my life or dictate where I should live - I don’t want to have to wait X amount of time before I can return to NYC and get going with what I want to do. I don’t know if you’ve ever lived in NYC, but the air is not dirty. I’m sure the air is cleaner out in a Montana countryside or whatever, but that has nothing to do with PFS. CD did not move out to a rural area to get cured, and lots of guys who live in big cities, including NYC, have been cured. This is our first interaction, so it’s a bit bold to assume that I am a rural person.

I have a very different perspective than you do about NYC being an unhealthy environment, and it rubbed me the wrong way when you insinuated that it’s filled with insatiable greed, or that it carries this risk of turning me into an unfulfilled slave who cares only about money. Perhaps you already consider me to be such a person. But anyway, I lived most of my life in or next to NYC. It’s home to me. I’m sure people could say negative things about where you like to live, but that’s not a kind thing to do. There are good and bad people everywhere, and whether someone wants to live in a city or not comes down to their personal preferences. Moving out to the countryside is the last thing I’d want to do.

So just to reiterate, I’m not angry at you and I wish you all the best. Please don’t take the above differences as criticism; we just have different perspectives. I’m wishing you a speedy recovery.

[Cdsnuts]

I appreciate that you’re wishing me well, and I wish you well too. Please don’t take what I’m about to say the wrong way, but there are a bunch of things you wrote that I wanted to comment on, because I have a different perspective.

I feel that recovery is entirely within my own control and I do not believe in predestination, or that divine powers control outcomes. I don’t believe in a supernatural force controlling what I do, or the outcomes of my actions, or that there is a grand plan that was set out in advance. I enthusiastically celebrate you having those beliefs, but they’re quite different than mine. We definitely don’t share similar religious beliefs.

Reading between the lines a bit, I feel like you’re saying that there’s doubt and uncertainty about recovering. That it’s all up to some higher power, rather than my own actions. I disagree - this board is about taking charge and taking ownership. If I don’t recover, it’ll be because I gave up or I didn’t follow the directions properly, not because of sins, destiny, religion, or where I choose to live.

I do not think that it is healthy to think of PFS as a curse, or as a punishment for the sin of vanity or anything along those lines. I found that to be a little hurtful. Part of the healing process, for me anyway, is learning to forgive one’s self for taking finasteride, and accepting it. Unconditional self-acceptance. We took a risk, and it didn’t pay off, but that doesn’t mean we were morally worse than someone who dyes their prematurely graying hair, or someone who gets a nose job. If that was how the universe worked, then guys who get hair transplants or liposuction would get PFS. But that’s not how PFS works, it works biologically, through the laws of science.

I also have a different perspective when it comes to cities. I was born in NYC and lived in or next to it for +90% of my life. NYC is my real home, period. You telling me to live out in the countryside would be like me trying to convince you to convert to a different religion.

I’m not letting PFS define my life or dictate where I should live - I don’t want to have to wait X amount of time before I can return to NYC and get going with what I want to do. I don’t know if you’ve ever lived in NYC, but the air is not dirty. I’m sure the air is cleaner out in a Montana countryside or whatever, but that has nothing to do with PFS. CD did not move out to a rural area to get cured, and lots of guys who live in big cities, including NYC, have been cured. This is our first interaction, so it’s a bit bold to assume that I am a rural person.

I have a very different perspective than you do about NYC being an unhealthy environment, and it rubbed me the wrong way when you insinuated that it’s filled with insatiable greed, or that it carries this risk of turning me into an unfulfilled slave who cares only about money. Perhaps you already consider me to be such a person. But anyway, I lived most of my life in or next to NYC. It’s home to me. I’m sure people could say negative things about where you like to live, but that’s not a kind thing to do. There are good and bad people everywhere, and whether someone wants to live in a city or not comes down to their personal preferences. Moving out to the countryside is the last thing I’d want to do.

So just to reiterate, I’m not angry at you and I wish you all the best. Please don’t take the above differences as criticism; we just have different perspectives. I’m wishing you a speedy recovery.

Well said.

[Cdsnuts]

Well brother I’m gonna be honest with you, I really sympathize with you. I feel for you for the time you feel like you lost and I know how much of a struggle all this is. Unfortunately that isn’t going to help you my man, but I can share some of my own experiences cuz I think they may be of some help.

I really do think that your attitude is part of the problem, not that you have a shitty attitude or anything but it doesn’t seem like you’re very positive about all this and honestly that’s huge. The only person who can help you is you, so you have to be in your own corner and realize you can do everything you just told me. But stuff like your age, who cares man. People start new hobbies at all walks of life. My hockey team has 60 year old dudes who started playing in their 50’s. Find what you enjoy then do that. Also, your age isn’t going to deter women. Your attitude will though. You sound like a good person who’s accomplished a lot in life and you need to wear that on your sleeve and girls will be attracted to that. Woman love confidence, that’s about it. Unless you’re insanely unattractive.


I don’t mean to be preachy but I care about the guys on this forum and I want you to feel better, PFS will make things hard but if you hold yourself back then you’ve really lost. Just my two cents at least.

Correct on the women aspect. Age has nothing to do with it.....at all. Your personality has EVERYTHING to do with it. Looks are a plus and it will get you in the door, so to speak, but for men, it's our attitude and confidence and the way we carry ourselves that define who we are. NOTHING else.

[Turnover25]

Correct on the women aspect. Age has nothing to do with it.....at all. Your personality has EVERYTHING to do with it. Looks are a plus and it will get you in the door, so to speak, but for men, it's our attitude and confidence and the way we carry ourselves that define who we are. NOTHING else.

100%

[LetsGo]

I agree. That’s the next thing to work on, as I work on some other things as well. I’m above-average in the looks department, but not in the upper upper tier - which is fine. A decent portion of women like how I look, even though I’m not tall, so that’s pretty nice. Plus, my shoulders are broader and I look somewhat muscular. I’d still like to get a good 80% of the way to my genetic maximum, and I’m not close to that yet.

Also it’ll be easier for me to be confident when things are rolling with my business, and as I make more progress with recovering. I do feel like I’m on the verge of another upswing, potentially. As always, I need to find a way to get more sleep and to stop touching myself. It’s no good to be tired all day, like I am now.

During an upswing I have libido every day; right now it’s starting to be most days, but the morning wood is extremely weak and in the times I do fap, I either don’t feel anything, or it feels like my brain isn’t fully connected so I don’t really feel an orgasm. It’s a sort of in-between phase between feeling absolutely nothing, and something.

The Snowballs underwear might be helping, and I also tend to do better hormonally when I’m in a small caloric surplus, like I am now. I’m also making sure to get enough protein now, which is sure to help. With better protein intake and a caloric surplus, I expect my workouts to start translating into more muscle and strength gains now.

[LetsGo]

Still no morning wood. I wonder if the gluten free rice noodles I sometimes use for carb backloading are somehow to blame. (I don’t use gluten free soy sauce with them anymore.)

When I started parts of the protocol, I got good results at first. I got mono in October and didn’t eat many calories that month, and lost a huge amount of muscle and fat. When I started eating again I stopped eating gluten, in November 2019, and I suddenly got my morning wood back every day. That only until May 2020, I think. I attributed it ending in May due to not working out much since mid-March, due to the gym closure and me being too lazy and whatnot to find a way to work out consistently and intensely in my apartment.

I can’t think of what I’m doing “wrong,” other than only getting 6.5 hours of sleep per night and not meditating every day. I feel like I was closer to getting healed at the beginning of this year, and I can’t seem to get back to that daily morning wood. Even the prohormones didn’t kick off an upswing or restore my morning wood.

When I eliminated the red lentil pasta, that didn’t restore the morning wood either. Nothing has, right now.

Does anyone have any ideas or thoughts on this?

[Cdsnuts]

Still no morning wood. I wonder if the gluten free rice noodles I sometimes use for carb backloading are somehow to blame. (I don’t use gluten free soy sauce with them anymore.)

When I started parts of the protocol, I got good results at first. I got mono in October and didn’t eat many calories that month, and lost a huge amount of muscle and fat. When I started eating again I stopped eating gluten, in November 2019, and I suddenly got my morning wood back every day. That only until May 2020, I think. I attributed it ending in May due to not working out much since mid-March, due to the gym closure and me being too lazy and whatnot to find a way to work out consistently and intensely in my apartment.

I can’t think of what I’m doing “wrong,” other than only getting 6.5 hours of sleep per night and not meditating every day. I feel like I was closer to getting healed at the beginning of this year, and I can’t seem to get back to that daily morning wood. Even the prohormones didn’t kick off an upswing or restore my morning wood.

When I eliminated the red lentil pasta, that didn’t restore the morning wood either. Nothing has, right now.

Does anyone have any ideas or thoughts on this?

Don't use morning wood as so much of a guage of your overall health. Use your actual functionality for that. If you're doing everything 100% then you have nothing to worry about. During healing these things come and go and you can't put too much stock into them or you'll drive yourself nuts. As long as you're making steady forward progress it's a non issue, and that's how it should be thought of.

[LetsGo]

So I’ve been using the Snowballs underwear; not sure if I mentioned this already but it has some freezable gel packs that slide into the front. They are gray briefs that have a deep “pocket” in the front for the gel packs, each of which keeps the boys cold for about 20 mins. This system has the advantage of not being able to accidentally castrate you in your sleep like an ice pack, because it’ll thaw out before any damage can be done. The 3 packs last about 60 mins, and then you re-freeze them and use them again in the second half of the day.

The creator was supposedly infertile and went to many fertility doctors before one of them recommended cooling his balls, and apparently that worked for him and he created the product. It’s expensive for what it is, but I wouldn’t mess around with an ice pack and this feels much safer, and comfortable. You can wear it and mostly forget about it while you’re at home.

Bizarrely, after 10 - 15 minutes, I tend to get spontaneous wood with it! And some feelings of libido! Not the entire time, but here and there; it does seem to elevate my libido. I’ll definitely keep using it. If I’m getting this reaction to it this quickly, maybe it will keep helping me.

There have been a bunch of studies showing that cooling the balls can increase sperm count, but I haven’t been able to find studies showing that it can actually raise test. They might be out there, and I wasn’t looking very hard. There are tons of studies showing that heating the balls lowers sperm count by a lot, but many claim that short-term cold provides benefits. English wrote that he felt that starting the day with a swim in cold water, or taking a cold shower, was very important. So this could be something to add in along with a cold shower - because let’s face it, you’re not going to take a 2 hour cold shower.

Perhaps the coldness causes the body to send extra blood to that area, to try to warm it up, and the extra blood could help it to function better. That could explain the wood, but I don’t know why it seems to boost my libido.

From December 12th to December 24th, there were only 7 days where I didn’t fap. And on the other 6 days I fapped 7 times total - generally there would be 2 or so days of abstaining and then 2 days of not. I have to figure out some sort of strategy - or just use more willpower - to stop that. I always felt like if I could get it under control for an extended period, that that would help me. Oddly, most of those faps were because of sudden libido surges while wearing the cold balls thing.

I have been feeling a bit foggy lately; I think from lack of sleep. Getting 6 hours every night leaves me feeling exhausted - I need 8, or close to it, on a consistent basis and I know I’ll feel a lot better. At night I always feel like I need to stay up later, apparently I was like that even as a baby and toddler, but it’s just a habit, not genetics.

I have been getting morning wood lately, although not 10/10 strength, except one time when I took a nap and woke up with one that was just like it was pre-fin. Maximum strength, and it lasted for a good 3 minutes without me doing anything. It’s weird when you get a real one, maximum strength, because you’re not used to it and you forgot it could get like that. I wouldn’t call this an upswing necessarily, but it’s definitely not a downswing and I’m doing better hormonally than I have been in recent weeks. I think my body is desperate for more sleep, and that that will be a key thing for me. So on that note, I’m heading to bed now.

[Cdsnuts]

So I’ve been using the Snowballs underwear; not sure if I mentioned this already but it has some freezable gel packs that slide into the front. They are gray briefs that have a deep “pocket” in the front for the gel packs, each of which keeps the boys cold for about 20 mins. This system has the advantage of not being able to accidentally castrate you in your sleep like an ice pack, because it’ll thaw out before any damage can be done. The 3 packs last about 60 mins, and then you re-freeze them and use them again in the second half of the day.

The creator was supposedly infertile and went to many fertility doctors before one of them recommended cooling his balls, and apparently that worked for him and he created the product. It’s expensive for what it is, but I wouldn’t mess around with an ice pack and this feels much safer, and comfortable. You can wear it and mostly forget about it while you’re at home.

Bizarrely, after 10 - 15 minutes, I tend to get spontaneous wood with it! And some feelings of libido! Not the entire time, but here and there; it does seem to elevate my libido. I’ll definitely keep using it. If I’m getting this reaction to it this quickly, maybe it will keep helping me.

There have been a bunch of studies showing that cooling the balls can increase sperm count, but I haven’t been able to find studies showing that it can actually raise test. They might be out there, and I wasn’t looking very hard. There are tons of studies showing that heating the balls lowers sperm count by a lot, but many claim that short-term cold provides benefits. English wrote that he felt that starting the day with a swim in cold water, or taking a cold shower, was very important. So this could be something to add in along with a cold shower - because let’s face it, you’re not going to take a 2 hour cold shower.

Perhaps the coldness causes the body to send extra blood to that area, to try to warm it up, and the extra blood could help it to function better. That could explain the wood, but I don’t know why it seems to boost my libido.

From December 12th to December 24th, there were only 7 days where I didn’t fap. And on the other 6 days I fapped 7 times total - generally there would be 2 or so days of abstaining and then 2 days of not. I have to figure out some sort of strategy - or just use more willpower - to stop that. I always felt like if I could get it under control for an extended period, that that would help me. Oddly, most of those faps were because of sudden libido surges while wearing the cold balls thing.

I have been feeling a bit foggy lately; I think from lack of sleep. Getting 6 hours every night leaves me feeling exhausted - I need 8, or close to it, on a consistent basis and I know I’ll feel a lot better. At night I always feel like I need to stay up later, apparently I was like that even as a baby and toddler, but it’s just a habit, not genetics.

I have been getting morning wood lately, although not 10/10 strength, except one time when I took a nap and woke up with one that was just like it was pre-fin. Maximum strength, and it lasted for a good 3 minutes without me doing anything. It’s weird when you get a real one, maximum strength, because you’re not used to it and you forgot it could get like that. I wouldn’t call this an upswing necessarily, but it’s definitely not a downswing and I’m doing better hormonally than I have been in recent weeks. I think my body is desperate for more sleep, and that that will be a key thing for me. So on that note, I’m heading to bed now.

As you know cold showers are a part of this protocol for the numerous health benefits they have for men. Once you get yourself acclimated, you really only need to take a 5 minute cold shower......max, and you still get all of the benefits. It's more about the consistency then the length of time under ice. I'm not familiar with the snowballs underwear but I would think you wouldn't want to cool your boys for more then two hours.....

[LetsGo]

As you know cold showers are a part of this protocol for the numerous health benefits they have for men. Once you get yourself acclimated, you really only need to take a 5 minute cold shower......max, and you still get all of the benefits. It's more about the consistency then the length of time under ice. I'm not familiar with the snowballs underwear but I would think you wouldn't want to cool your boys for more then two hours.....

The thing with the snowballs underwear is that they recommend doing 60 minutes in the morning and 60 minutes in the evening, rather than two hours all in one shot. I end up doing 20 mins at a time with some gaps in between, and then a second set of 3 in the next half of the day. The boys feel cold to the touch, but they don’t feel numb from the cold. It’s been shown to boost sperm count by a lot so I don’t think it has any negatives, and Soviet Olympic athletes used to ice their boys back in the days before steroids were invented.

General update: I’m having a very nice upswing now, with libido/interest waaay up (still not pre-fin,) and my ability to feel pleasure is partly back, maybe 20%. Morning wood is also back but not max strength. It’s been like this all week.

[Cdsnuts]

The thing with the snowballs underwear is that they recommend doing 60 minutes in the morning and 60 minutes in the evening, rather than two hours all in one shot. I end up doing 20 mins at a time with some gaps in between, and then a second set of 3 in the next half of the day. The boys feel cold to the touch, but they don’t feel numb from the cold. It’s been shown to boost sperm count by a lot so I don’t think it has any negatives, and Soviet Olympic athletes used to ice their boys back in the days before steroids were invented.

General update: I’m having a very nice upswing now, with libido/interest waaay up (still not pre-fin,) and my ability to feel pleasure is partly back, maybe 20%. Morning wood is also back but not max strength. It’s been like this all week.

I understand the theory, and I can see why it works, but the cold showers not only chill your boys, but the body as a whole. This has systemic benefits that help the whole system overall.

You have a good understanding of the protocol, use it to your advantage.

[LetsGo]

I understand the theory, and I can see why it works, but the cold showers not only chill your boys, but the body as a whole. This has systemic benefits that help the whole system overall.

You have a good understanding of the protocol, use it to your advantage.

I’ll do cold showers in addition. I normally only take showers at night before bed, because I’m always waking up as late as possible due to awful sleep habits. If I take the cold showers right before bed, it’d probably mess with my sleep. I’ll have to find a way to sleep earlier and then wake up a little earlier and start my day off the cold way.

[Cdsnuts]

I’ll do cold showers in addition. I normally only take showers at night before bed, because I’m always waking up as late as possible due to awful sleep habits. If I take the cold showers right before bed, it’d probably mess with my sleep. I’ll have to find a way to sleep earlier and then wake up a little earlier and start my day off the cold way.

I actually find that when I take cold showers before bed, I sleep better. Everyone elses milage may vary.

[LetsGo]

My upswing from before ended - I can go back and check but I think it started towards the end of December and ended around Monday of this week.

However, I do still have more libido than I do during previous downswings.

I took a 1 minute cold shower last night, and it wasn’t any worse than a 30 second cold shower. Actually, the 30 second shower was much worse. For the first half of this shower, I had the water on my face and chest and was having a hard time catching my breath. I had to lean over and let most of the water hit the side of my face. Then I chickened out by having the other thirty seconds of cold water spray on my back and head, which was easier. (I normally spend most of my showers facing away from the water. In movies, everyone who takes a shower is always facing the shower, but that’s always been uncomfortable to me, having the water spray on my face, so I’ve always taken backwards showers.) I’m not sure if what I did still counts as a cold shower, because I was only facing forward for half of it and I never directly aimed it at my balls. Also, the water was only 80% of the way towards cold, not 100%.

I’m staying in a hotel since I can easily and cheaply get top status with Hyatt for 2 years (including free upgrades to suites) if I do it, and this is sort of me banking on the fact that I’ll have someone special to enjoy that perk with. I will get lots of points and free nights back, so in the end it will only cost me a few hundred dollars. Also I needed a change of scenery. Anyway, the hotel’s showers are much nicer than mine - it’s got more of a rain type of thing, rather than a shower head that sprays a small area.

A lot of what makes cold showers so unpleasant is that I start hyperventilating, and have to fight the urge to turn off the water the whole time. I’m just looking at the countdown and trying to catch my breath, trying to tell myself “okay, what if you just knocked off all the bullshit and maybe held your breath for a bit? You could try not shivering. It’s really unnecessary, you’re going to dry off very soon anyhow.” But it only works to a small degree.

After my work day I will take a colder shower (max coldness) for 1 minute and try to face it the whole time. I'll try to catch my breath and tell myself “you can just stand here, it’s fine.” But when that rush of cold water hits me, I turn into Aaron Brrrr.

In middle school and high school, I was on a swim team at my local pool. Practice was at 7 AM, and the water was cold every morning. Even though this was in the summer, it was shortly after sunrise and big pools take a long time to warm up. I don’t remember how cold it was in relation to a cold shower, but I would usually slooooooowly lower my feet and legs into the pool, and get in, and it would be okay. Then eventually you have to go underwater, and that part still sucked but it was over in a few seconds. Once you started swimming, it was fine. Other times, I would just jump in and go underwater straight away to get it over with. No matter what, after a couple of laps you would completely move on from the coldness factor. It just wasn’t an issue anymore.

Cold showers are similar, but different. You can’t swim to warm yourself up / distract yourself, you don’t have the forced rhythm of breathing that swimming gives you, and you can’t really ease into it, either. It’s a continuous blast of cold water, but there’s a lot of air in between the water so your body doesn’t adjust to it the way it does when you submerge yourself. It would be so much easier to get in a pool of cold water and swim one or two laps. But it’s not QUITE as bad as I thought it would be. It’s a lot more tolerable if you can take a regular shower first, then have a body temp shower for a few minutes, and then set the timer and crank it down like a madman.

I’m not thinking about going past 1 minute cold showers until I have a less severe reaction to them. For now, 1 minute is plenty of time. Maybe in a week or two my body and mind will get more used to it, and I will have a less strong reaction to it.

Also trying to not fap at all - 2 days in so far. Launching the ads for my business this weekend as well.

[Cdsnuts]

My upswing from before ended - I can go back and check but I think it started towards the end of December and ended around Monday of this week.

However, I do still have more libido than I do during previous downswings.

I took a 1 minute cold shower last night, and it wasn’t any worse than a 30 second cold shower. Actually, the 30 second shower was much worse. For the first half of this shower, I had the water on my face and chest and was having a hard time catching my breath. I had to lean over and let most of the water hit the side of my face. Then I chickened out by having the other thirty seconds of cold water spray on my back and head, which was easier. (I normally spend most of my showers facing away from the water. In movies, everyone who takes a shower is always facing the shower, but that’s always been uncomfortable to me, having the water spray on my face, so I’ve always taken backwards showers.) I’m not sure if what I did still counts as a cold shower, because I was only facing forward for half of it and I never directly aimed it at my balls. Also, the water was only 80% of the way towards cold, not 100%.

I’m staying in a hotel since I can easily and cheaply get top status with Hyatt for 2 years (including free upgrades to suites) if I do it, and this is sort of me banking on the fact that I’ll have someone special to enjoy that perk with. I will get lots of points and free nights back, so in the end it will only cost me a few hundred dollars. Also I needed a change of scenery. Anyway, the hotel’s showers are much nicer than mine - it’s got more of a rain type of thing, rather than a shower head that sprays a small area.

A lot of what makes cold showers so unpleasant is that I start hyperventilating, and have to fight the urge to turn off the water the whole time. I’m just looking at the countdown and trying to catch my breath, trying to tell myself “okay, what if you just knocked off all the bullshit and maybe held your breath for a bit? You could try not shivering. It’s really unnecessary, you’re going to dry off very soon anyhow.” But it only works to a small degree.

After my work day I will take a colder shower (max coldness) for 1 minute and try to face it the whole time. I'll try to catch my breath and tell myself “you can just stand here, it’s fine.” But when that rush of cold water hits me, I turn into Aaron Brrrr.

In middle school and high school, I was on a swim team at my local pool. Practice was at 7 AM, and the water was cold every morning. Even though this was in the summer, it was shortly after sunrise and big pools take a long time to warm up. I don’t remember how cold it was in relation to a cold shower, but I would usually slooooooowly lower my feet and legs into the pool, and get in, and it would be okay. Then eventually you have to go underwater, and that part still sucked but it was over in a few seconds. Once you started swimming, it was fine. Other times, I would just jump in and go underwater straight away to get it over with. No matter what, after a couple of laps you would completely move on from the coldness factor. It just wasn’t an issue anymore.

Cold showers are similar, but different. You can’t swim to warm yourself up / distract yourself, you don’t have the forced rhythm of breathing that swimming gives you, and you can’t really ease into it, either. It’s a continuous blast of cold water, but there’s a lot of air in between the water so your body doesn’t adjust to it the way it does when you submerge yourself. It would be so much easier to get in a pool of cold water and swim one or two laps. But it’s not QUITE as bad as I thought it would be. It’s a lot more tolerable if you can take a regular shower first, then have a body temp shower for a few minutes, and then set the timer and crank it down like a madman.

I’m not thinking about going past 1 minute cold showers until I have a less severe reaction to them. For now, 1 minute is plenty of time. Maybe in a week or two my body and mind will get more used to it, and I will have a less strong reaction to it.

Also trying to not fap at all - 2 days in so far. Launching the ads for my business this weekend as well.

Do you do the breathing exercises before the shower? THIS is key to having your body sync with your mind and being able to control the shock of the cold water. The breathing basically turns on the internal furnace allowing you to stay calm and collected all while bringing your mind into a DEEP state of meditation. It eventually becomes an effortless endevour which is rather pleasant, believe it or not. I used to dread them, now I look forward to them every day.

Just keep at it man. Like everything else, with time and practice you will start reaping the rewards from this activity which are too numerous to pass up.

What business are you in if you don't mind me asking?

[LetsGo]

Do you do the breathing exercises before the shower? THIS is key to having your body sync with your mind and being able to control the shock of the cold water. The breathing basically turns on the internal furnace allowing you to stay calm and collected all while bringing your mind into a DEEP state of meditation. It eventually becomes an effortless endevour which is rather pleasant, believe it or not. I used to dread them, now I look forward to them every day.

Just keep at it man. Like everything else, with time and practice you will start reaping the rewards from this activity which are too numerous to pass up.

What business are you in if you don't mind me asking?

I’m a bit afraid to do the breathing exercises because a fair number of people have reported getting tinnitus or worsening tinnitus when trying the Wim Hoff breathing method. On a reddit thread, others said not to do the “push to the head” portion of it, as they think that that might be what causes the tinnitus worsening in some people.

I’m okay with the level of tinnitus that I have now (which would probably drive some to suicide) and I could live with this amount of tinnitus for life, no problem. But if it got drastically worse… that’s a risk I’m not comfortable with. I don’t know if there’s some sort of work around that would let me do the breathing exercises without risking worsening my tinnitus.

As for my business, I’m a lawyer but I don’t want to get much more specific than that in public (you can DM me if you want more info.) PFS de-railed my career, and my father’s horrible abuse for half a decade pushed me further away. Eventually I got a non-lawyer job but this isn’t somewhere I can stay any longer. And I want to finally make real money.

Anyway, I re-learned what I needed to re-learn (thankfully even in my darkest days, I never let my law licenses expire,) got a lot of reps in doing pro bono work, and now I’m technically, mentally, and emotionally able to do this. Once I have an ad and website combo that works, I can dial up the ad spend to increase my workload, and I’ll be making very good money. My website looks reasonable, including the professional photo and everything. I just need to pull the trigger on my ads and start fine-tuning from there. I can be making well over a hundred thousand dollars without too much trouble, and multiple times that as I get going. I deserve it.

[Turnover25]

I’m a bit afraid to do the breathing exercises because a fair number of people have reported getting tinnitus or worsening tinnitus when trying the Wim Hoff breathing method. On a reddit thread, others said not to do the “push to the head” portion of it, as they think that that might be what causes the tinnitus worsening in some people.

I’m okay with the level of tinnitus that I have now (which would probably drive some to suicide) and I could live with this amount of tinnitus for life, no problem. But if it got drastically worse… that’s a risk I’m not comfortable with. I don’t know if there’s some sort of work around that would let me do the breathing exercises without risking worsening my tinnitus.

As for my business, I’m a lawyer but I don’t want to get much more specific than that in public (you can DM me if you want more info.) PFS de-railed my career, and my father’s horrible abuse for half a decade pushed me further away. Eventually I got a non-lawyer job but this isn’t somewhere I can stay any longer. And I want to finally make real money.

Anyway, I re-learned what I needed to re-learn (thankfully even in my darkest days, I never let my law licenses expire,) got a lot of reps in doing pro bono work, and now I’m technically, mentally, and emotionally able to do this. Once I have an ad and website combo that works, I can dial up the ad spend to increase my workload, and I’ll be making very good money. My website looks reasonable, including the professional photo and everything. I just need to pull the trigger on my ads and start fine-tuning from there. I can be making well over a hundred thousand dollars without too much trouble, and multiple times that as I get going. I deserve it.

I’m one of the ones who tinnitus has completely gone away. I used to have ringing in my ears from the military also, and then after pfs it got louder. It would also hit me randomly where everything in the world would go silent in one ear and then all I could hear would be ringing for about 30 seconds. Fortunately I don’t have tinnitus in any sense of the word anymore. EXCEPT when I do wim hof. Sometimes I get ringing in my ears briefly afterwords. I’ve also heard this from a number of people who have never had pfs, just based off of commenters on YouTube videos of wim hof, it seems to be a common theme.

I wouldn’t worry about it causing your pfs tinnitus to worsen in the long run. If you experience any ringing, it will be brief. That’s my .02 at least.

[LetsGo]

I’m one of the ones who tinnitus has completely gone away. I used to have ringing in my ears from the military also, and then after pfs it got louder. It would also hit me randomly where everything in the world would go silent in one ear and then all I could hear would be ringing for about 30 seconds. Fortunately I don’t have tinnitus in any sense of the word anymore. EXCEPT when I do wim hof. Sometimes I get ringing in my ears briefly afterwords. I’ve also heard this from a number of people who have never had pfs, just based off of commenters on YouTube videos of wim hof, it seems to be a common theme.

I wouldn’t worry about it causing your pfs tinnitus to worsen in the long run. If you experience any ringing, it will be brief. That’s my .02 at least.

Thanks for the input; I’m kind of shocked (in a good way) to hear that your tinnitus completely went away. I’ve never heard of that happening before!

I’ve had some degree of tinnitus even as a kid. I would ask my parents “You know that really high-pitched sound you hear when it’s very quiet? The sound of silence?” and they would look at each other with wide eyes and ask if I needed to go see a doctor. It’s louder now, and I have also had odd spells where suddenly it would get louder, then gradually fade back down to its normal level.

I don’t know whether it was finasteride that made my tinnitus louder, but that’s definitely possible. I just don’t know.

I have read a whole bunch of people getting long-term / permanent tinnitus, or worsened tinnitus, from doing the Wim Hoff Method and I don’t really want to take risks of causing permanent damage / issues. It could spike and then fade back to normal, or it could permanently worsen, and I’d come back and you’d say “Damn man, I’m sorry to hear that that happened.” And I’d be like “Yeah, thanks. (I wish I would’ve listened to my intuition. Ugh.)”

[Cdsnuts]

I’m a bit afraid to do the breathing exercises because a fair number of people have reported getting tinnitus or worsening tinnitus when trying the Wim Hoff breathing method. On a reddit thread, others said not to do the “push to the head” portion of it, as they think that that might be what causes the tinnitus worsening in some people.

I’m okay with the level of tinnitus that I have now (which would probably drive some to suicide) and I could live with this amount of tinnitus for life, no problem. But if it got drastically worse… that’s a risk I’m not comfortable with. I don’t know if there’s some sort of work around that would let me do the breathing exercises without risking worsening my tinnitus.

As for my business, I’m a lawyer but I don’t want to get much more specific than that in public (you can DM me if you want more info.) PFS de-railed my career, and my father’s horrible abuse for half a decade pushed me further away. Eventually I got a non-lawyer job but this isn’t somewhere I can stay any longer. And I want to finally make real money.

Anyway, I re-learned what I needed to re-learn (thankfully even in my darkest days, I never let my law licenses expire,) got a lot of reps in doing pro bono work, and now I’m technically, mentally, and emotionally able to do this. Once I have an ad and website combo that works, I can dial up the ad spend to increase my workload, and I’ll be making very good money. My website looks reasonable, including the professional photo and everything. I just need to pull the trigger on my ads and start fine-tuning from there. I can be making well over a hundred thousand dollars without too much trouble, and multiple times that as I get going. I deserve it.

That's just a temporary increase during that portion of the exercise but it's transient, where as the benefits from the breathing are permanent and beneficial in the long term. It will not make your tinnitus worse. If that was the case it wouldn't be in the protocol. The push to the head is where the most benefits come from. If I knew nothing about this I would trust the research and information from people who do it on the regular as opposed to some people on reddit who tried it a couple times.

[Marduk]

Thanks for the input; I’m kind of shocked (in a good way) to hear that your tinnitus completely went away. I’ve never heard of that happening before!

I’ve had some degree of tinnitus even as a kid. I would ask my parents “You know that really high-pitched sound you hear when it’s very quiet? The sound of silence?” and they would look at each other with wide eyes and ask if I needed to go see a doctor. It’s louder now, and I have also had odd spells where suddenly it would get louder, then gradually fade back down to its normal level.

I don’t know whether it was finasteride that made my tinnitus louder, but that’s definitely possible. I just don’t know.

I have read a whole bunch of people getting long-term / permanent tinnitus, or worsened tinnitus, from doing the Wim Hoff Method and I don’t really want to take risks of causing permanent damage / issues. It could spike and then fade back to normal, or it could permanently worsen, and I’d come back and you’d say “Damn man, I’m sorry to hear that that happened.” And I’d be like “Yeah, thanks. (I wish I would’ve listened to my intuition. Ugh.)”

When i crashed the worst symptom that hit me put of nowhere was tinnitus, I never experienced it before so it was really bad for me at the beginning but as i got better and my sleep got better it got way less until it disappeared thankfully.

Now looking back at it im 90% sure my tinnitus was caused by lack of deep sleep

[mcbbould]

[QUOTE=Turnover25;66921where everything in the world would go silent in one ear and then all I could hear would be ringing for about 30 seconds.
[/QUOTE]

Just FYI - I think this is somewhat common among healthy people. I used to get this before fin and there is some term for it. Some tube in the ear is temporarily pressurized or clogged or something.

[Cdsnuts]

Just FYI - I think this is somewhat common among healthy people. I used to get this before fin and there is some term for it. Some tube in the ear is temporarily pressurized or clogged or something.

I remember when this first happened to me....I thought I would go mad. In time, you unfortunately get used to it. Most times I don't even notice it anymore. It is the ONE THING, that has never went away. Some days are better then others. It's definitely nerve related though because everytime I drink, I can feel it a little worse during a hangover. It only stays around for a day or so, then subsides to a very subtle ring.

If that is the most of have to deal with after everything I've been through.....NO PROBLEM!!

[LetsGo]

That's just a temporary increase during that portion of the exercise but it's transient, where as the benefits from the breathing are permanent and beneficial in the long term. It will not make your tinnitus worse. If that was the case it wouldn't be in the protocol. The push to the head is where the most benefits come from. If I knew nothing about this I would trust the research and information from people who do it on the regular as opposed to some people on reddit who tried it a couple times.

Re-reading the TMO page on this, it seems to only call for a short breath-holding period, not 3 - 4 minutes (permanent brain damage starts at 4 - 5 minutes) as many in the Wim Hof groups do, as if it’s some kind of breath holding contest. I’m personally leery of extreme breath holding (which you can easily do after hyperventilating) and that is probably what causes people the most problems. I’m going to look into it some more.

[Cdsnuts]

Re-reading the TMO page on this, it seems to only call for a short breath-holding period, not 3 - 4 minutes (permanent brain damage starts at 4 - 5 minutes) as many in the Wim Hof groups do, as if it’s some kind of breath holding contest. I’m personally leery of extreme breath holding (which you can easily do after hyperventilating) and that is probably what causes people the most problems. I’m going to look into it some more.

You do what's comfortable for you. There are ALOT of people who do Wim Hof and I'm pretty sure none of them are brain damaged from it....lol.

What problems are you referring to? Most people who practice this have said nothing but how it transformed their lives for the better, myself included. The thing is, people, for the most part, are notoriously horrible at following directions properly. It's just the human condition. Of course you're going to have some people do it wrong and cause their own problems because of it.

But as you mentioned, it is not a breath holding contest. You do what is comfortable, never forced on the inhales or retentions, holds, etc.

[Mojo]

2 minute breath hold is the sweet spot for me. Around that time I really start feeling the urge to breath. Its enough to make the 15 second breath in after get me high and calm.

[Cdsnuts]

2 minute breath hold is the sweet spot for me. Around that time I really start feeling the urge to breath. Its enough to make the 15 second breath in after get me high and calm.

Then that's where you want to keep it.

[Zonz]

There is a video on YouTube called “guided Wim Hof breathing” from wim hof himself. That’s what I use.

[Cdsnuts]

There is a video on YouTube called “guided Wim Hof breathing” from wim hof himself. That’s what I use.

That's a good resource to use for anyone interested.

[LetsGo]

I guess it’s time for another update.

I’ve been on a big downswing since about a month ago, when my last upswing ended. The downswing has intensified and I don’t get morning wood at all now. I got the nice juicer that I ordered, and although TMO says to use a blender, I think it’ll be fine to use a juicer to make your daily juice if you prefer that method. I always took the blender and nut milk bag technique as a suggestion.

I’ve been feeling pretty anxious lately, particularly this last week. In the last 2 days I only got about 4 hours of sleep each night. I’ve been staying up at night Googling some stuff about an unrelated issue:

Brief Diversion - feel free to skip
So last week, I went for a hair transplant consultation in NYC and the surgeon (and his protege surgeon) said that there’s a 40% chance that I have an extremely rare type of hair loss that usually only happens in post-menopausal women, and he’d need to do a biopsy to get more info. It’s called FFA and it causes the vellus hairs (the very thin baby hairs) to die, and then the regular hairs die as well, although a few stragglers are left behind as the baldness moves backwards from your hairline. However, in my case, it’s following a traditional male pattern baldness path, and not a straight line like it normally does with FFA.

With FFA, there’s scarring under the skin, and some research papers have speculated that it could be caused by insufficient DHEA causing a certain fat-related enzyme not to activate. This then causes the fat cells in the scalp to die and scar up, killing your hair. This disease was first reported in the early 1990s, and almost never hits men (especially not men in their 30s.) Maybe most men have too much test and DHEA to get affected, and I got FFA because of PFS, but I’m not sure. I don’t remember hearing of anyone else with PFS who has FFA. Anyway, the upshot is that if I have FFA, I can’t get a transplant, despite having the money and donor hair, because the FFA would just destroy the transplant within a few years.

Also, FFA may end up destroying my eyebrows, which have always been thin. (It can also wipe out your pubic and armpit hair, but I don’t care about either of those.) If that happens then I’ll probably get “microblading” which lasts about a year and seems to look more realistic than eyebrow tattoos. I’d be a bit leery of getting permanent eyebrow tattoos because I don’t know how realistic they’d look and I’d worry about having to live with any mistakes that the tattooer did. But I will absolutely not go with a “no eyebrows” look, period. I will find a way to address my eyebrows if I lose them. And if I have to rock a shaved head look, I would just have to find a way to get used to a very different-looking man in the mirror, or hide under an expensive fake hair system to try to look younger and more attractive.

The main thing doctors use to stop FFA is dutasteride or finasteride, which are completely unthinkable for me. There are also steroid injections (not anabolic steroids) and some other things they can try. I don’t officially know that I have FFA, he said it was a 40% chance, but after doing research it seems more like a 99% chance to me. I don’t have any vellus hairs in my balding front, so I don’t see how it’s possible that I could have regular male-pattern baldness. I had no idea that you were supposed to have vellus hairs in your balding regions, no wonder the red laser stuff didn’t regrow anything. I’m not sure if its even possible to have male pattern baldness without those miniaturizing vellus hairs, but somehow my surgeon still said it was 60% likely to be male pattern baldness. (This is the one time in my life where I’m hoping I have male pattern baldness, lol.) I also have a huge very thin area about the size of the palm of my hand, on the crown area. Not sure if I have vellus hairs back there or not.

If I can’t get a hair transplant, then I will eventually have to decide between shaving my head or getting a “hair system”. But we’re not at that point yet. I’ve been looking back at old photos of myself from my 20s; I was really handsome, and I’m way less handsome now. Sometimes I feel washed-up, but I have to keep my spirits up as best as I can. I think there’s still a lot of happiness that I can have, and I want to hurry up and reach that point. (My great afterlife fantasy is that someday I’ll get to relive my life, making better choices. But in the here and now it’s incredibly important to forgive myself / not carry a grudge against myself, and develop unconditional self-love.)

I should find out the results of my biopsy on 2/19 or 2/22. If it somehow turns out that I have male pattern baldness, I’m not jumping into surgery like I originally planned to, I’ll want to see a certain dermatologist who sees a lot of FFA patients and get his take on it. Whatever it is, I will deal with it and honestly recovering from PFS is more important to worry about.

Back to recovery stuff
I think the tribulus that I have is garbage. I got the one from bulksupplements.com, and I should probably find a better brand. I was reading that “medi-herbs standard process” is far and away the best kind, and that “vemo herb” is also good but not as strong. The Standard Process stuff can only be purchased in person, at certain chiropractors and naturopath doctors, and it’s over a dollar per pill. Apparently regular tribulus is garbage; they make it out of the tribulus fruit. Supposedly the active ingredient only develops in Bulgarian & Slovakian grown tribulus, and only in the leaves and stems, not the flower or fruit. Most of what is sold in the US is therefore worthless. The stuff that actually works ends up costing 50 cents a pill or $1.50, or even $2. Which is all completely fine, I just want to get the good stuff.

Right now I’m in the middle of a heavy downswing, where I don’t seem to have any libido at all and days go by where I’m not even thinking about women or masturbating. In times like this, it feels like my progress has been erased, and it doesn’t feel like my upswings are bringing me to higher baselines and then building up to a higher upswing, like they’re supposed to. It just feels like I have upswings 4 or 5 times per year and that’s it. I would need to go back and re-read my thread to see if that’s true, but emotionally, that’s what “feels” true today. (I’m just in a melancholy mood.)

Almost exactly 2 years ago I did my first juice feast, except I had used frozen fresh-made juices that I had shipped out to me. I think I still did make good progress at first, and was thinking and hoping that this would be a quick 6 month ride. However, I didn’t get the full and proper benefits from my juice feast, because I was using frozen juices. But when I was temporarily on a broth diet due to mono, after that was when I had my biggest upswing ever. I had morning wood for like 8 months in a row! I’m wondering if I will need to do semi-regular juice feasts a few times per year, but if this gives me my morning wood back then I will feel like that’s a good platform to recover the rest of the way.

I’m thinking I should do 2 weeks of juice feasting, possibly 3. I’m not going to do 45 days like CD did, though. I’ll do 2 weeks and see where I’m at. I know CD said he did many water fasts and juice feasts throughout his recovery, so I’m not sure if perhaps it’s not a one and done thing for me. I never had these kinds of lows after my accidental broth fast, except several months after my gym closed due to Covid.

The other significant thing is that my boss has hinted at the possibility of me replacing him when he eventually retires (maybe this year, maybe next year, I don’t know), but I really want to have my own law firm and live in NYC. Also, I’m not so sure that I’d get picked, since my co-worker is a higher salary grade than me. I really don’t like this small city, and I don’t know that I could ever find the love of my life here. Besides, if my business does even somewhat decently, I should be making at least $200k, which is a lot more than I’d earn in the government supervisor role. I need to keep pushing, despite exhaustion and low hormones, and find a way to make my dreams come true.

I’ve spent about $400 on my ads (which are finally working) this month, and got 2 leads, neither of which has panned out so far, but I have to keep going. My therapist said that at a certain point, I may just have to jump in and move to NYC and make it all work there, rather than building a “proof of concept” up here and then moving down to NYC when I know that my business blueprint works. I’ve sunk about $6k into the business for startup costs so I’m somewhat reluctant to just try to get a regular associate job; I would absolutely prefer to just make a go of this on my own, be my own boss, and make good money doing something that I enjoy. Get into a nice relationship and recover enough from PFS to be able to enjoy sex, and finally start enjoying my life.

Anyhow, I’m exhausted. I’m going to drag myself over to the grocery store to buy a bunch of fruits and vegetables. In a perfect world, tomorrow I will start my juice feast. If not, then it starts on Friday or Saturday at the latest.

[Turnover25]

I guess it’s time for another update.

I’ve been on a big downswing since about a month ago, when my last upswing ended. The downswing has intensified and I don’t get morning wood at all now. I got the nice juicer that I ordered, and although TMO says to use a blender, I think it’ll be fine to use a juicer to make your daily juice if you prefer that method. I always took the blender and nut milk bag technique as a suggestion.

I’ve been feeling pretty anxious lately, particularly this last week. In the last 2 days I only got about 4 hours of sleep each night. I’ve been staying up at night Googling some stuff about an unrelated issue:

Brief Diversion - feel free to skip
So last week, I went for a hair transplant consultation in NYC and the surgeon (and his protege surgeon) said that there’s a 40% chance that I have an extremely rare type of hair loss that usually only happens in post-menopausal women, and he’d need to do a biopsy to get more info. It’s called FFA and it causes the vellus hairs (the very thin baby hairs) to die, and then the regular hairs die as well, although a few stragglers are left behind as the baldness moves backwards from your hairline. However, in my case, it’s following a traditional male pattern baldness path, and not a straight line like it normally does with FFA.

With FFA, there’s scarring under the skin, and some research papers have speculated that it could be caused by insufficient DHEA causing a certain fat-related enzyme not to activate. This then causes the fat cells in the scalp to die and scar up, killing your hair. This disease was first reported in the early 1990s, and almost never hits men (especially not men in their 30s.) Maybe most men have too much test and DHEA to get affected, and I got FFA because of PFS, but I’m not sure. I don’t remember hearing of anyone else with PFS who has FFA. Anyway, the upshot is that if I have FFA, I can’t get a transplant, despite having the money and donor hair, because the FFA would just destroy the transplant within a few years.

Also, FFA may end up destroying my eyebrows, which have always been thin. (It can also wipe out your pubic and armpit hair, but I don’t care about either of those.) If that happens then I’ll probably get “microblading” which lasts about a year and seems to look more realistic than eyebrow tattoos. I’d be a bit leery of getting permanent eyebrow tattoos because I don’t know how realistic they’d look and I’d worry about having to live with any mistakes that the tattooer did. But I will absolutely not go with a “no eyebrows” look, period. I will find a way to address my eyebrows if I lose them. And if I have to rock a shaved head look, I would just have to find a way to get used to a very different-looking man in the mirror, or hide under an expensive fake hair system to try to look younger and more attractive.

The main thing doctors use to stop FFA is dutasteride or finasteride, which are completely unthinkable for me. There are also steroid injections (not anabolic steroids) and some other things they can try. I don’t officially know that I have FFA, he said it was a 40% chance, but after doing research it seems more like a 99% chance to me. I don’t have any vellus hairs in my balding front, so I don’t see how it’s possible that I could have regular male-pattern baldness. I had no idea that you were supposed to have vellus hairs in your balding regions, no wonder the red laser stuff didn’t regrow anything. I’m not sure if its even possible to have male pattern baldness without those miniaturizing vellus hairs, but somehow my surgeon still said it was 60% likely to be male pattern baldness. (This is the one time in my life where I’m hoping I have male pattern baldness, lol.) I also have a huge very thin area about the size of the palm of my hand, on the crown area. Not sure if I have vellus hairs back there or not.

If I can’t get a hair transplant, then I will eventually have to decide between shaving my head or getting a “hair system”. But we’re not at that point yet. I’ve been looking back at old photos of myself from my 20s; I was really handsome, and I’m way less handsome now. Sometimes I feel washed-up, but I have to keep my spirits up as best as I can. I think there’s still a lot of happiness that I can have, and I want to hurry up and reach that point. (My great afterlife fantasy is that someday I’ll get to relive my life, making better choices. But in the here and now it’s incredibly important to forgive myself / not carry a grudge against myself, and develop unconditional self-love.)

I should find out the results of my biopsy on 2/19 or 2/22. If it somehow turns out that I have male pattern baldness, I’m not jumping into surgery like I originally planned to, I’ll want to see a certain dermatologist who sees a lot of FFA patients and get his take on it. Whatever it is, I will deal with it and honestly recovering from PFS is more important to worry about.

Back to recovery stuff
I think the tribulus that I have is garbage. I got the one from bulksupplements.com, and I should probably find a better brand. I was reading that “medi-herbs standard process” is far and away the best kind, and that “vemo herb” is also good but not as strong. The Standard Process stuff can only be purchased in person, at certain chiropractors and naturopath doctors, and it’s over a dollar per pill. Apparently regular tribulus is garbage; they make it out of the tribulus fruit. Supposedly the active ingredient only develops in Bulgarian & Slovakian grown tribulus, and only in the leaves and stems, not the flower or fruit. Most of what is sold in the US is therefore worthless. The stuff that actually works ends up costing 50 cents a pill or $1.50, or even $2. Which is all completely fine, I just want to get the good stuff.

Right now I’m in the middle of a heavy downswing, where I don’t seem to have any libido at all and days go by where I’m not even thinking about women or masturbating. In times like this, it feels like my progress has been erased, and it doesn’t feel like my upswings are bringing me to higher baselines and then building up to a higher upswing, like they’re supposed to. It just feels like I have upswings 4 or 5 times per year and that’s it. I would need to go back and re-read my thread to see if that’s true, but emotionally, that’s what “feels” true today. (I’m just in a melancholy mood.)

Almost exactly 2 years ago I did my first juice feast, except I had used frozen fresh-made juices that I had shipped out to me. I think I still did make good progress at first, and was thinking and hoping that this would be a quick 6 month ride. However, I didn’t get the full and proper benefits from my juice feast, because I was using frozen juices. But when I was temporarily on a broth diet due to mono, after that was when I had my biggest upswing ever. I had morning wood for like 8 months in a row! I’m wondering if I will need to do semi-regular juice feasts a few times per year, but if this gives me my morning wood back then I will feel like that’s a good platform to recover the rest of the way.

I’m thinking I should do 2 weeks of juice feasting, possibly 3. I’m not going to do 45 days like CD did, though. I’ll do 2 weeks and see where I’m at. I know CD said he did many water fasts and juice feasts throughout his recovery, so I’m not sure if perhaps it’s not a one and done thing for me. I never had these kinds of lows after my accidental broth fast, except several months after my gym closed due to Covid.

The other significant thing is that my boss has hinted at the possibility of me replacing him when he eventually retires (maybe this year, maybe next year, I don’t know), but I really want to have my own law firm and live in NYC. Also, I’m not so sure that I’d get picked, since my co-worker is a higher salary grade than me. I really don’t like this small city, and I don’t know that I could ever find the love of my life here. Besides, if my business does even somewhat decently, I should be making at least $200k, which is a lot more than I’d earn in the government supervisor role. I need to keep pushing, despite exhaustion and low hormones, and find a way to make my dreams come true.

I’ve spent about $400 on my ads (which are finally working) this month, and got 2 leads, neither of which has panned out so far, but I have to keep going. My therapist said that at a certain point, I may just have to jump in and move to NYC and make it all work there, rather than building a “proof of concept” up here and then moving down to NYC when I know that my business blueprint works. I’ve sunk about $6k into the business for startup costs so I’m somewhat reluctant to just try to get a regular associate job; I would absolutely prefer to just make a go of this on my own, be my own boss, and make good money doing something that I enjoy. Get into a nice relationship and recover enough from PFS to be able to enjoy sex, and finally start enjoying my life.

Anyhow, I’m exhausted. I’m going to drag myself over to the grocery store to buy a bunch of fruits and vegetables. In a perfect world, tomorrow I will start my juice feast. If not, then it starts on Friday or Saturday at the latest.

Honestly bro, shave that shit and move on. The bald look is in. You seem like you’re creating big mountains in your head and it’s stressing you out, you’re gonna look fine.

I use 100:1 organic tribulus by Micro-ingredients and it’s the bees knees. I’ve been meaning to recommend it to Cdsnuts to use on TMO because I love it. One of the best herbs I have by far. The only issue is it tastes like straight ass, think tongkat, but a big spoonful of it.

[Cdsnuts]

Honestly bro, shave that shit and move on. The bald look is in. You seem like you’re creating big mountains in your head and it’s stressing you out, you’re gonna look fine.

I use 100:1 organic tribulus by Micro-ingredients and it’s the bees knees. I’ve been meaning to recommend it to Cdsnuts to use on TMO because I love it. One of the best herbs I have by far. The only issue is it tastes like straight ass, think tongkat, but a big spoonful of it.

Gonna check it out. Thanks for remembering.

[LetsGo]

My sleep is absolutely horrible. I’ve been getting about 5 hours per night and it’s wrecking things.

I felt very sleepy and went to bed at 10pm, which is insanely early for me. But I woke up, wide awake, at 12:30 because I was somewhat thirsty and now 3 hours later, I still can’t fall back asleep. I know I’m going to be even more tired at work.

I took some albiza and maybe that’ll help me fall back asleep. I need to get a few more hours of sleep tonight if I can.

[LetsGo]

Jucin’ Update:

Day 2

My juicer is making this whole process easy. Between prep and cleanup, it takes less than 30 minutes to make 4 to 5 liters of juice. I clean out the machine (which takes about 5 minutes) after I’m done making all of my juice, and I use a bag in the pulp catching container. Of course, the grocery runs also take time, and the cashiers gave me weird looks when they saw the enormous amount of produce in my cart. If I lived near a grocery store, it would be incredibly easy to keep this going for 45 days like CD did, back in the day.

If you’re going to get a dedicated juicer, don’t cheap out and get a $100 or $150 one. Those are crap. Get a high-end $350 one. One of the plusses is that it’ll actually save you money on fruit and greens - my juicer leaves me with bone-dry pulp, so I know I’m not leaving much juice behind. If you have soggy pulp, that means you need more fruit/greens to get the same amount of juice, and in the long run that could be more expensive than just getting a more efficient machine. On the other hand, everyone has their own preferences and budgets, and tolerances for cleanup time and prep time. Your mileage may vary.

I’ve found that it takes 7 large, peeled oranges to make 1 liter of orange juice, so that’s going to be my “breakfast” juice for the remainder of my juice feast. I bag of 14 oranges is $8, so that’s not too bad. I’m having all the spinach, celery, carrots, and kale, that’s all fine, but I spread that out among the other 3 to 4 liters rather than having one ultra green-heavy drink. The fruits balance out the taste of the greens, but my orange juice is just straight oranges. I also have to say that these juices taste a lot better than the "fresh but frozen" juices I had delivered to me back in 2019.

I’m going somewhat heavy on the apples, since upstate New York is a massive producer of apples and I can get a wide variety of high-quality apples for cheap. Also I just like apple juice. A nice thing about my juicer is that you can just throw in the entire apple with no prep work aside from rinsing it. I also add in some ginger and a portion of the greens / celery for the day. The juicer that I have has a 1 liter container that you can pour into bottles with a funnel, or into your glass. For the days when I have to go to the office in person, I’ll make most of my juice the night before and keep it in the fridge, and I will make my post-work juice totally fresh. It keeps for 24 hours before losing the nutrients, so this should be fine.

I’m also doing things like strawberry and pineapple, and drinks with grapes and pears. When you mix a few different types of apples together (and a few carrots,) the flavor is better and more interesting than just using one type of apple.

So far I don’t feel any different, in terms of my symptoms. I’m not sure if it’s something where I’m supposed to feel better during the feast, or if it only happens afterwards.

When I feel hungry, I drink some juice. It gets rid of the hunger, but I never feel satisfied like I do from food. In 2019, I was extremely hungry by day 2 or 3, and the juices did not taste good. By day 6 and 7, I was fantasizing about food like never before, elaborately planning out what I was going to eat when I was done, and buying several cookbooks. I think this time around I’ll still be looking forward to eating food again, but I won’t be as hungry because I’m definitely getting more calories now. I’m not sure if I’ll do 10 days, or 14 days, or 21 days, or what. I’m leaning towards 14 days right now.

If this doesn’t give me any noticable results (which would be unexpected,) then probably a month or two afterwards I’ll do a water fast. Water fasting for a week or a few weeks shuts down your testosterone and HTPA to a large extent, and then when you start eating again, there’s a massive spike upwards that can leave you higher than when you started (if you were under-producing previously.) And then also, the receptors are primed and ready for the t-boosting herbs and workouts. This is a way smarter and healthier way to do it compared to taking drugs like clomid, which can give you side effects and unbalance your hormones. Also, clomid can permanently give you eye floaters, or permanently worsen your existing eye floaters.

I’m not sure how the juice feast works, in terms of what I can expect from it. I don’t know if it’ll give me a testosterone surge or a much stronger sensitivity to the herbs when I’m finished, but that’s what I’m hoping for. We’ll see how it goes.

[Zonz]

Are you meditating?

[LetsGo]

Are you meditating?

Yes.

[Cdsnuts]

My sleep is absolutely horrible. I’ve been getting about 5 hours per night and it’s wrecking things.

I felt very sleepy and went to bed at 10pm, which is insanely early for me. But I woke up, wide awake, at 12:30 because I was somewhat thirsty and now 3 hours later, I still can’t fall back asleep. I know I’m going to be even more tired at work.

I took some albiza and maybe that’ll help me fall back asleep. I need to get a few more hours of sleep tonight if I can.

-Lay on your back and do 4-7-8 breaths until drowsy. As long as it takes.

[Cdsnuts]

Jucin’ Update:

Day 2

My juicer is making this whole process easy. Between prep and cleanup, it takes less than 30 minutes to make 4 to 5 liters of juice. I clean out the machine (which takes about 5 minutes) after I’m done making all of my juice, and I use a bag in the pulp catching container. Of course, the grocery runs also take time, and the cashiers gave me weird looks when they saw the enormous amount of produce in my cart. If I lived near a grocery store, it would be incredibly easy to keep this going for 45 days like CD did, back in the day.

If you’re going to get a dedicated juicer, don’t cheap out and get a $100 or $150 one. Those are crap. Get a high-end $350 one. One of the plusses is that it’ll actually save you money on fruit and greens - my juicer leaves me with bone-dry pulp, so I know I’m not leaving much juice behind. If you have soggy pulp, that means you need more fruit/greens to get the same amount of juice, and in the long run that could be more expensive than just getting a more efficient machine. On the other hand, everyone has their own preferences and budgets, and tolerances for cleanup time and prep time. Your mileage may vary.

I’ve found that it takes 7 large, peeled oranges to make 1 liter of orange juice, so that’s going to be my “breakfast” juice for the remainder of my juice feast. I bag of 14 oranges is $8, so that’s not too bad. I’m having all the spinach, celery, carrots, and kale, that’s all fine, but I spread that out among the other 3 to 4 liters rather than having one ultra green-heavy drink. The fruits balance out the taste of the greens, but my orange juice is just straight oranges. I also have to say that these juices taste a lot better than the "fresh but frozen" juices I had delivered to me back in 2019.

I’m going somewhat heavy on the apples, since upstate New York is a massive producer of apples and I can get a wide variety of high-quality apples for cheap. Also I just like apple juice. A nice thing about my juicer is that you can just throw in the entire apple with no prep work aside from rinsing it. I also add in some ginger and a portion of the greens / celery for the day. The juicer that I have has a 1 liter container that you can pour into bottles with a funnel, or into your glass. For the days when I have to go to the office in person, I’ll make most of my juice the night before and keep it in the fridge, and I will make my post-work juice totally fresh. It keeps for 24 hours before losing the nutrients, so this should be fine.

I’m also doing things like strawberry and pineapple, and drinks with grapes and pears. When you mix a few different types of apples together (and a few carrots,) the flavor is better and more interesting than just using one type of apple.

So far I don’t feel any different, in terms of my symptoms. I’m not sure if it’s something where I’m supposed to feel better during the feast, or if it only happens afterwards. Will It Blend? - Air Soft Gun - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH1yh_w5XO4)

When I feel hungry, I drink some juice. It gets rid of the hunger, but I never feel satisfied like I do from food. In 2019, I was extremely hungry by day 2 or 3, and the juices did not taste good. By day 6 and 7, I was fantasizing about food like never before, elaborately planning out what I was going to eat when I was done, and buying several cookbooks. I think this time around I’ll still be looking forward to eating food again, but I won’t be as hungry because I’m definitely getting more calories now. I’m not sure if I’ll do 10 days, or 14 days, or 21 days, or what. I’m leaning towards 14 days right now.

If this doesn’t give me any noticable results (which would be unexpected,) then probably a month or two afterwards I’ll do a water fast. Water fasting for a week or a few weeks shuts down your testosterone and HTPA to a large extent, and then when you start eating again, there’s a massive spike upwards that can leave you higher than when you started (if you were under-producing previously.) And then also, the receptors are primed and ready for the t-boosting herbs and workouts. This is a way smarter and healthier way to do it compared to taking drugs like clomid, which can give you side effects and unbalance your hormones. Also, clomid can permanently give you eye floaters, or permanently worsen your existing eye floaters.

I’m not sure how the juice feast works, in terms of what I can expect from it. I don’t know if it’ll give me a testosterone surge or a much stronger sensitivity to the herbs when I’m finished, but that’s what I’m hoping for. We’ll see how it goes.

Good post.

You're right about the machines. The more expensive, better quality machines are the way to go, hands down. They are just better at processing then their cheaper counterparts.

The plus to a high tech blender like the one I have, the K-tech, is that by using that and a nut milk bag, clean up is ridiculously quick. You wash out the pitcher of the blender and rinse out the nut milk bag.....done.

These are funny videos used to get the point across at how powerful these things are: Will It Blend? - iPad - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAl28d6tbko) :Will It Blend? - Crowbar - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifzdez7FRbk)

Amazon.com: Blendtec Signature Series Blender With Wildside+Jar (90 oz)- Professional-Grade-Self-Cleaning- Black (https://amzn.to/3bxc9qZ)

With the feast, there is no limit to what you can have. If you are still hungry after five quarts have six or seven. You can't over do it. As long as you sure you're getting the bare minimum of minerals listed on TMO for the feast, you're good to go. Also, make sure to drink plenty of water.

The difference between cleansing with a juice feast and cleansing with a water fast is energy. With the feast, you're going to have it. Not so much with the fast. This is why the feast cleanses a little slower and easier then the fast because you are still creating cellular waste in the form of digestion. Simple sugar is clean burning, but when you compare it to burning no fuel, you can see how it would slow the cleansing process down.

A side note....you're not typically going to have any type of libido surge or libido at all for that matter while cleansing. It's the last thing on the bodies mind as it's under going it's "house cleaning." This is normal, so don't be alarmed. Some people will feel great during the fast and others after. You just have to wait and see.

[LetsGo]

Good post.

You're right about the machines. The more expensive, better quality machines are the way to go, hands down. They are just better at processing then their cheaper counterparts.

The plus to a high tech blender like the one I have, the K-tech, is that by using that and a nut milk bag, clean up is ridiculously quick. You wash out the pitcher of the blender and rinse out the nut milk bag.....done.

These are funny videos used to get the point across at how powerful these things are: Will It Blend? - iPad - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAl28d6tbko) :Will It Blend? - Crowbar - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifzdez7FRbk)

Amazon.com: Blendtec Signature Series Blender With Wildside+Jar (90 oz)- Professional-Grade-Self-Cleaning- Black (https://amzn.to/3bxc9qZ)

With the feast, there is no limit to what you can have. If you are still hungry after five quarts have six or seven. You can't over do it. As long as you sure you're getting the bare minimum of minerals listed on TMO for the feast, you're good to go. Also, make sure to drink plenty of water.

The difference between cleansing with a juice feast and cleansing with a water fast is energy. With the feast, you're going to have it. Not so much with the fast. This is why the feast cleanses a little slower and easier then the fast because you are still creating cellular waste in the form of digestion. Simple sugar is clean burning, but when you compare it to burning no fuel, you can see how it would slow the cleansing process down.

A side note....you're not typically going to have any type of libido surge or libido at all for that matter while cleansing. It's the last thing on the bodies mind as it's under going it's "house cleaning." This is normal, so don't be alarmed. Some people will feel great during the fast and others after. You just have to wait and see.

Thanks!

Wow, it sounds like the K-tech is more hardcore than my Vitamix (which does just fine with frozen fruit for smoothies, but I’m sure it couldn’t handle crowbars, lol.) The blender technique has the fastest cleanup, for sure. I do have to remove some pieces of my blender and clean the screen with a brush, clean the pulp out of the insides that didn’t make it into the bag, etc.

I’m not sure if what happened during my juice feast is normal or not.

So, during my juice feast, on Day 2 I had a bunch of dirrhea, which was to be expected. I figured that that was me getting rid of everything that was left in my colon. On day 3, nothing. However, now on Day 4, for some reason tonight I had a full bowel movement. I haven’t been eating anything, just the juice plus some water. It’s possible that a tiny amount of pulp winds up in the juice and is accidentally consumed, but not a significant amount and definitely not enough to create this full, regular-sized bowel movement.

Maybe I still had undigested food in my colon from 4+ days ago, but that thought kind of floors me because I normally have about 2 bowel movements every day. It seemed inconcievable that I could still have stuff from 4+ days working its way through my colon when I’m so regular. Maybe getting all of that out part of the whole cleansing/feasting thing, but I’m very surprised that it was there.


Side note: my libido is trending back upwards, though I don’t have morning wood right now. I feel like this is a “soft” downswing, up from the “hard” downswing that I had been going through. During PFS, I had a harsher decline several years post-PFS. At that point, I’d easily go 6 - 9 days until I felt any libido, and this lasted for roughly 5 years until I started the program. My friend who used fin at the same time as me, and quit when I quit, claims to have no PFS but says that for him, having sex twice per month is normal and ideal for him. So he was telling me that the 6 - 9 days was actually quite strong libido. I guess that’s how he was before finasteride and that’s just how some guys are, and his wife also has a low libido, so honestly, it doesn’t seem to be a problem. But my libido (pre-pfs) was always far higher than that, and during upswings I can feel that coming back. I can feel like getting all the way back is not only possible, it’s going to happen for me.

I’m doing video chats with my therapist and he is very supportive of the program, which is different than my last therapist who was like: “So let me get this straight. You’re not going to go to an endocrinologist or a urologist for this? You’re just going to listen to some guy on the internet instead? That doesn’t seem very bright.” And then he dropped me as a patient when I refused to go on SSRIs; he brushed aside concerns about sexual side effects in someone who already had unresolved sexual side effects. He thought SSRIs would improve my mood and therefore eliminate my symptoms, which is completely wrong. SSRIs cause more sexual side effects, not less. However, I learned a lot of helpful things from him that made me permanently less anxious and more confident, so I’m still very glad I went to him.

During hard downswings it may take me 2 or 3 days to feel some libido. My hard downswings are roughly like my initial time after quitting finasteride - no pleasure, but still okayish libido. This is an improvement from how they were earlier in the protocol, where I went back to feeling like a 90 year old man during downswings. During my soft downswings I want to fap every day, though I don’t. If I do slip up and fap during one of these softer downswings, I actually feel a weak orgasm, instead of nothing.

During my most recent upswing in December and January, I believe I had morning wood most days (but not rock hard), had almost pre-PFS libido, 100% pre-PFS ejaculatory force, and semi-pleasurable orgasms. I didn’t have full/normal sensitivity and pleasure, but it was more than normal (which is zero.)

Anyway, I have no doubt that I will beat this thing and get back to 100%.

[LetsGo]

Juicin’: Day 9

I’m planning to wrap up the juice feast after day 10. Right now I’d say that I don’t feel like I’m in high libido mode or anything, I don’t feel great or bad. I haven’t seen signs so far that this is causing a big upswing, and if it doesn’t seem to do anything significant in the weeks ahead then I’ll probably do a water fast. Maybe the juice feast is meant to make you more receptive to the herbs and everything, and it would be normal not to feel an upswing during the juice feast. So we’ll see how this goes for me. If it works, I’ll be very happy.

I can’t wait to eat real food again; I’m not overwhelmed with hunger or anything, because I drink juice when I’m hungry, but I just miss eating food.

I’ve lost about 10 to 15 lbs in the last month or so, dropping to 143 lbs. I’m not sure if, in theory, it would be best to drop down to like 125 lbs in some type of a crash diet, so that I could gain more muscle on the way back up. (Basically, regaining lost muscle, on the theory that gaining muscle / regaining muscle helps permanently, while losing muscle does not undo those PFS gains.)

I’m planning to use the prohormones again, but I need to work out the optimal timing. I don’t know that I felt anything special after the first cycle, though. But it’s hard to say.

I slept 8 hours on Friday into Saturday, and 7.5 hours last night, but I still feel exhausted. I have gotten such poor sleep lately that I desperately need to catch up. I’m sure that that is not positive for my progress; it’s best to be getting good sleep each night.

[Queens1984]

Hey everyone.

I took finasteride from 2009 to 2012, and had gradually worsening sides that I didn’t connect to the drug. I took zoloft from 2001 to 2009. I’m 35 and a half now.

The finasteride sides were: no morning wood, 1/10 orgasm quality, reduced libido (80% to 90% lower), some brain fog, vastly reduced sensitivity (very little to no pleasure from stimulation), and it was nearly impossible to orgasm when with a partner (as I would feel almost nothing, even after weeks of not fapping.) However, my erection quality was excellent the entire time, which allowed me to delude myself into thinking this was not PFS.

Several therapists, and my family, convinced me repeatedly over the years that this couldn’t be PFS (which they didn’t seem to firmly believe in), and so I spent years not getting better. However, I do not believe in worrying about the past.

In February I got all the herbs, did a juice feast, and then started rotating the herbs, and lifting weights 3 days per week (although a couple of weeks it was only 2 workouts per week because I overdid it and didn’t want to train while I had neck muscle soreness. I strained my neck muscles by lifting too heavy sometimes.)

I am making some strength gains, but not much in the way of muscle mass gains so far - I’ll need to eat more. I’ll do monthly tape measurings and fat measurements with calipers, and maybe start weighing myself every day to make sure I keep my weight up. If I’m going to work out, I might as well make some muscle gains, too.

Within just a few days of starting the herbal rotation and workouts, my libido was improving a lot. About 2.5 weeks in, I was able to climax in a reasonable amount of time during sex, but the climaxing pleasure was maybe 1.25/10, up from 1/10.

I hope that my sensitivity and orgasm quality improve over time - we’ll see how that goes. It might take significantly longer for that to start returning.

I get strong morning wood about 3/7 of days now, up from about 1/120 of days (aka about 3 days per year) before, (though I would get weak morning wood once or twice per two weeks.) I get weak morning wood maybe 2/7, and no morning wood about 2/7. I’m so glad that I’m getting morning wood again, even if it’s not every day.

I also feel a bit less foggy, but I’m not 100% at all, and things still feel off a lot of the time.

This will be controversial for some, but I have kept a plant-based (vegan) diet since 2015. It’s been working well for me; my blood markers improved vastly, and I will keep doing it. Your mileage may vary, I’m not telling anyone else to switch their diets. I’m also NOT here to debate veganism, and I’m only (very reluctantly) mentioning this in case a vegan PFS lurker reads this and wants to know if a whole foods plant based diet can be subbed in instead of a paleo diet. I am the first person to ever attempt it, and I’m making progress.

I will post more updates here and there, but not all of my short-term ups and downs need to be mentioned.

Hey buddy how is your recovery Going?

[LetsGo]

Hey buddy how is your recovery Going?

Hey Queens1984, thanks for checking in. You can browse through my thread to see how everything has gone. I haven’t fully recovered yet, but I will recover.

[Queens1984]

Hey Queens1984, thanks for checking in. You can browse through my thread to see how everything has gone. I haven’t fully recovered yet, but I will recover.

You 100 percent will with that Mindset. Fuck Merck and Propecia.

[LetsGo]

So after 1 day post juice feast, I haven’t noticed anything different.

My libido is basically nonexistent and overall I feel as bad as I ever have in terms of PFS symptoms. It really bothers me when I don’t have any morning wood for weeks and weeks and weeks.

[Cdsnuts]

So after 1 day post juice feast, I haven’t noticed anything different.

My libido is basically nonexistent and overall I feel as bad as I ever have in terms of PFS symptoms. It really bothers me when I don’t have any morning wood for weeks and weeks and weeks.

Like I tell everyone. Your not going to have a libido when cleansing.....ever. You're not supposed to. Your body wants food, not sex. You're not going to feel miraculously recovered either.....it's simply about cleansing the system. How long did you go total?

[LetsGo]

Like I tell everyone. Your not going to have a libido when cleansing.....ever. You're not supposed to. Your body wants food, not sex. You're not going to feel miraculously recovered either.....it's simply about cleansing the system. How long did you go total?

I went for a total of 10 days. After a few days back on the herbal rotation, my libido is coming back and I’m waking up with weak morning wood.

It really sucked having no morning wood or libido for well over a week. Also, waking up with a 100% limp noodle upsets me significantly. Times like that make one wonder if they lost all their gains, but I don’t think I have..

When I recovered from mono, and inadvertently water fasted for several days, I started getting strong morning wood every day and that lasted for like 8 months (several months after my gym closed for covid.) It seemed like I’d reached a new and higher baseline and I want to get back to that level again.

[Cdsnuts]

I went for a total of 10 days. After a few days back on the herbal rotation, my libido is coming back and I’m waking up with weak morning wood.

It really sucked having no morning wood or libido for well over a week. Also, waking up with a 100% limp noodle upsets me significantly. Times like that make one wonder if they lost all their gains, but I don’t think I have..

When I recovered from mono, and inadvertently water fasted for several days, I started getting strong morning wood every day and that lasted for like 8 months (several months after my gym closed for covid.) It seemed like I’d reached a new and higher baseline and I want to get back to that level again.

Don't stress so much about morning wood. It's not the be all end all of benchmarking your progress.

Certainly don't let it get you down. Plenty of other things to worry about besides this......trust me.

[LetsGo]

Don't stress so much about morning wood. It's not the be all end all of benchmarking your progress.

Certainly don't let it get you down. Plenty of other things to worry about besides this......trust me.

Thanks; I do tend to get preoccupied with morning wood because to me it’s just something that I’m supposed to have.

For what it’s worth, when I woke up this morning I had full-strength morning wood that lasted for at least 3 or 4 minutes, which tends not to happen for me even during upswings. (I’m not in an upswing now.)

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks; I do tend to get preoccupied with morning wood because to me it’s just something that I’m supposed to have.

For what it’s worth, when I woke up this morning I had full-strength morning wood that lasted for at least 3 or 4 minutes, which tends not to happen for me even during upswings. (I’m not in an upswing now.)

It will eventually all come together my friend.

If it wasn't the morning wood it would be something else. We get so lost in our own minds it's astounding...pfs or not.

Just don't let it distract you from all the good that is happening to you whether you can feel it or not......it is.

[Turnover25]

It will eventually all come together my friend.

If it wasn't the morning wood it would be something else. We get so lost in our own minds it's astounding...pfs or not.

Just don't let it distract you from all the good that is happening to you whether you can feel it or not......it is.

Did you take your progress for granted? I feel like I do that a lot, it’s hard to know exactly what it was like at my worst since it was almost 2 years ago but I feel like if my post crash self felt how I do now he’d be overjoyed. I’d bet this happens to a lot of guys since progress is so slow. But that’s why I’ve documented all of it.

[Cdsnuts]

Did you take your progress for granted? I feel like I do that a lot, it’s hard to know exactly what it was like at my worst since it was almost 2 years ago but I feel like if my post crash self felt how I do now he’d be overjoyed. I’d bet this happens to a lot of guys since progress is so slow. But that’s why I’ve documented all of it.

You always take it for granted, especially when you have a nice long stretch.....until a downswing.

Human nature. It happens so subtle that you don't realize how far you've come until it reminds you.

[LetsGo]

Overall, I’ve had some tough days and I need to work on my sleep. But there’s been some promising development on the business front, and the dating front as well.

I’m going to get into some stuff I’ve been reading about, but if I should delete any of this, I will go ahead and do that.

Anyway, on PH, I read about a guy, Apr1989, who apparently cured his PFS relatively quickly (5 or 6 months, after about a year of suffering), using a tribulus cycling protocol that sounds interesting. He also used a microdose of a chemical castration drug called Triptorelin, which in small quantities stimulates your HTPA but in large doses, it overstimulates it and knocks if offline (which is how it’s used for prostate cancer.) It’s bioidentical to the hormone that the body uses to trigger puberty, but it seems scary nonetheless.

I’ve been doing some reading on the active component of tribulus, protodioscin, and it has been shown in animals to increase androgen receptor density and activity in the brain. So it sounds like that would be very helpful for PFS, which is why it was perfect for it to have always been part of the herbal rotation. However… top-quality tribulus could arguably be the most powerful of the herbs, because restoring the androgen receptors in the brain is the hardest and most important part of recovering.

The major theory on PFS is that somehow, reducing your DHT levels or having them jump back up after quitting a 5AR inhibitor, somehow makes the brain resistent/immune to androgens. That then causes the brain fog, loss of libido, loss of brain-penis connection, loss of ability to feel sexual pleasure and orgasms, hormone dysregulation, etc. This is why artificially targeting specific hormones with various drugs will never work. You have to restore normal function of the brain’s androgen receptors, and that’s what the TMO protocol has been able to do over time.

Anyway, Apr1989’s idea was to restart his HTPA, and then use tribulus to resensitize his androgen receptors. In the comments on his post, tons of people tried using the wrong brands of tribulus, or took massive doses (which he said not to do,) or didn’t cycle it, or kept fapping while doing it, or didn’t taper up and taper down, etc. Basically 90% of the people ignored his protocol, and 5% accused him of being a scammer or not having real PFS. It seemed like nobody replicated exactly what he did, except that the last 5% of the guys made progress by following what he did with tribulus. I didn’t follow up to see if they made recovery posts or disappeared, but the point is that he wasn’t the only one who started making progress that built on itself over time.

Tribulus
The regular tribulus that you buy inexpensively is made from the fruit of the plant, but it’s low in protodioscin. Protodioscin is only produced in large amounts if the tribulus plant was grown in the Balkans - but the cheap stuff is generally grown in China where the climate and soil are different than in Bulgaria. The protodioscin is mainly found in the aerial parts of the plant (meaning everything except the fruit and roots,) but if you’re making trib pills, it’s incredibly expensive to only use 10% of the plant. That’s why the cheaper stuff is fruit-based China or US-grown tribulus, which is very low in protodioscin and therefore not that effective.

The only company that uses only Bulgarian tribulus, and only the aerial portion of the plant, is Standard Process. There are other brands like Vemoherb and Tribestan that use Bulgarian tribulus, and a mix of aerial and fruit, so it still has protodioscin but it’s not as concentrated as Standard Process. From what this sounds like, basically most tribulus is not going to be very effective compared to this high-potency kind. The normal inexpensive trib will work as part of the overall TMO protocol (I’m sure there’s still some beneficial things in the fruit extract, including small amounts of protodioscin,) but the high-end tribulus should work better.

To order Standard Process Tribulus, you have to get it through a healthcare provider, typically a chiropractor’s office or one of those non-Western medicine types of places. Naturopath doctors, acupuncturists, etc. The founder of the company believed in not compromising on the quality/purity, but also believed you needed to see some type of professional rather than just getting it on your own. The chiropractor’s office near me was willing to place the order without any type of appointment. I have a friend who is a naturopath doctor in Arizona, so she could probably place orders for me in the future. I put in an order of two bottles of the SP trib, but they’re not shipping for about 3 months.

In the meantime, I bought some tribulus: Vemoherb and Tribestan, which are made in Bulgaria and are a mix of fruit and aerial extract. Since I’m waiting a little longer to go back to the gym, I started experimenting with Apr1989’s trib-only cycle and within a couple of days, I started getting random wood during the day (but still no morning wood,) and much higher libido, which was surprising. I feel this tribulus more powerfully than the normal herbal rotation that I’d been on, and this isn’t even the best tribulus.

I’m not recommending that anyone else do this, it was just an experiment as I wait until Monday to get back into the gym. But my experience with tribulus has been very promising. I feel like if I was on this low dose trib cycle during an upswing, man, I’d probably feel like I was cured during that upswing. I don’t see much harm in experimenting with this tribulus cycle, but I wouldn’t recommend it because it doesn’t have much of a track record aside from a few guys. The TMO/CD protocol is the gold standard, and my recommendation would be to consider getting one of the high-end tribulus products to use in your rotation.

My Test Levels?
One of my concerns is that even when I’m lifting regularly and doing the herbal rotation, my testosterone is still low the vast majority of the time. (Morning wood is normally a good indicator of test.) I’ve had many upswings and overall I’m doing much better than I was, and I will get healed eventually, but I don’t expect to make any progress when I’m not working out.d

It’s very annoying to make appointments with local doctors, but I’m thinking about finally getting my testosterone, DHT, etc, re-checked. (I won’t go on TRT or Clomid, obviously.) Mostly it would be so I could retest it 3 - 6 months later and see how much I’m able to boost it. Unfortunately, the at-home testosterone test kit companies do not ship to New York, it’s apparently illegal or something (probably BS lobbying by the doctors.)

I feel like to get my levels consistently up, I might need to do a water fast, since I don’t want to go the pharma route of resorting to a microdose of Triptorelin. I don’t think the juice feast I did shuts down your HTPA like a water fast does, because your calories don’t reach a critically low level where your body starts shutting down “accessories” like your hormones. But that’s what I’m looking for, a HTPA reboot in a low-risk way. Because I feel like slowly raising it like 1% per month or whatever, is not going to cut it. In 2019 after I got mono and fasted, when I ate again, I felt amazing and had consistent morning wood through my upswings and downswings, for over half a year (ending only after several months of not working out at the gym, because it was closed due to Covid.) I feel like if the pandemic didn’t happen, I’d be cured by now.

Next Steps
I’m wrapping up the 8 day tribulus-only cycle. I will jump back into the workouts on Monday after getting my second vaccine dose, and add in HIIT on my off days like I’m supposed to. And then I’m also thinking about experimenting with alternating Apr1989’s tribulus cycle, and doing the TMO herbal rotation in between the trib cycles to see if that works better for me, given how good I’m feeling on the low dose of tribulus. I would do the 8-day trib cycle and then 8 or 13 days of the TMO herbal rotation. Then, when my androsterone arrives, I could do a cycle of that for 4 to 6 weeks, then go back to the TMO and Trib rotations for however long I did the andro cycle. Maybe throw in a water fast depending on how I’m feeling.

[Mojo]

Thank you for that post, very informative.
I think I made the mistake of ordering all the cheapest herbs I could find back in the day. Now I have some quality stuff from LEH coming in and I can order vemoherb tribulus fairly cheap. Time to double down after my UH cycle is over.

And yea, messing with castration drugs sounds extremely ill advised.

[LIC2020]

Lol you mean people on PH didn’t follow a protocol and then claimed said protocol didn’t work?? Shocking

[MungYarlon]

Overall, I’ve had some tough days and I need to work on my sleep. But there’s been some promising development on the business front, and the dating front as well.

I’m going to get into some stuff I’ve been reading about, but if I should delete any of this, I will go ahead and do that.

Anyway, on PH, I read about a guy, Apr1989, who apparently cured his PFS relatively quickly (5 or 6 months, after about a year of suffering), using a tribulus cycling protocol that sounds interesting. He also used a microdose of a chemical castration drug called Triptorelin, which in small quantities stimulates your HTPA but in large doses, it overstimulates it and knocks if offline (which is how it’s used for prostate cancer.) It’s bioidentical to the hormone that the body uses to trigger puberty, but it seems scary nonetheless.

I’ve been doing some reading on the active component of tribulus, protodioscin, and it has been shown in animals to increase androgen receptor density and activity in the brain. So it sounds like that would be very helpful for PFS, which is why it was perfect for it to have always been part of the herbal rotation. However… top-quality tribulus could arguably be the most powerful of the herbs, because restoring the androgen receptors in the brain is the hardest and most important part of recovering.

*The major theory on PFS is that somehow, reducing your DHT levels or having them jump back up after quitting a 5AR inhibitor, somehow makes the brain resistent/immune to androgens.* That then causes the *brain fog*, loss of libido, loss of brain-penis connection, loss of ability to feel sexual pleasure and orgasms, hormone dysregulation, etc. This is why artificially targeting specific hormones with various drugs will never work. *You have to restore normal function of the brain’s androgen receptors*, and that’s what the TMO protocol has been able to do over time.

Anyway, Apr1989’s idea was to restart his HTPA, and then use *tribulus to resensitize his androgen receptors*. In the comments on his post, tons of people tried using the wrong brands of tribulus, or took massive doses (which he said not to do,) or didn’t cycle it, or kept fapping while doing it, or didn’t taper up and taper down, etc. Basically 90% of the people ignored his protocol, and 5% accused him of being a scammer or not having real PFS. It seemed like nobody replicated exactly what he did, except that the last 5% of the guys made progress by following what he did with tribulus. I didn’t follow up to see if they made recovery posts or disappeared, but the point is that he wasn’t the only one who started making progress that built on itself over time.

Tribulus
The regular tribulus that you buy inexpensively is made from the fruit of the plant, but it’s low in protodioscin. Protodioscin is only produced in large amounts if the tribulus plant was grown in the Balkans - but the cheap stuff is generally grown in China where the climate and soil are different than in Bulgaria. The protodioscin is mainly found in the aerial parts of the plant (meaning everything except the fruit and roots,) but if you’re making trib pills, it’s incredibly expensive to only use 10% of the plant. That’s why the cheaper stuff is fruit-based China or US-grown tribulus, which is very low in protodioscin and therefore not that effective.

The only company that uses only Bulgarian tribulus, and only the aerial portion of the plant, is Standard Process. There are other brands like Vemoherb and Tribestan that use Bulgarian tribulus, and a mix of aerial and fruit, so it still has protodioscin but it’s not as concentrated as Standard Process. From what this sounds like, basically most tribulus is not going to be very effective compared to this high-potency kind. The normal inexpensive trib will work as part of the overall TMO protocol (I’m sure there’s still some beneficial things in the fruit extract, including small amounts of protodioscin,) but the high-end tribulus should work better.

To order Standard Process Tribulus, you have to get it through a healthcare provider, typically a chiropractor’s office or one of those non-Western medicine types of places. Naturopath doctors, acupuncturists, etc. The founder of the company believed in not compromising on the quality/purity, but also believed you needed to see some type of professional rather than just getting it on your own. The chiropractor’s office near me was willing to place the order without any type of appointment. I have a friend who is a naturopath doctor in Arizona, so she could probably place orders for me in the future. I put in an order of two bottles of the SP trib, but they’re not shipping for about 3 months.

In the meantime, I bought some tribulus: Vemoherb and Tribestan, which are made in Bulgaria and are a mix of fruit and aerial extract. Since I’m waiting a little longer to go back to the gym, I started experimenting with Apr1989’s trib-only cycle and within a couple of days, I started getting random wood during the day (but still no morning wood,) and much higher libido, which was surprising. I feel this tribulus more powerfully than the normal herbal rotation that I’d been on, and this isn’t even the best tribulus.

I’m not recommending that anyone else do this, it was just an experiment as I wait until Monday to get back into the gym. But my experience with tribulus has been very promising. I feel like if I was on this low dose trib cycle during an upswing, man, I’d probably feel like I was cured during that upswing. I don’t see much harm in experimenting with this tribulus cycle, but I wouldn’t recommend it because it doesn’t have much of a track record aside from a few guys. The TMO/CD protocol is the gold standard, and my recommendation would be to consider getting one of the high-end tribulus products to use in your rotation.

My Test Levels?
One of my concerns is that even when I’m lifting regularly and doing the herbal rotation, my testosterone is still low the vast majority of the time. (Morning wood is normally a good indicator of test.) I’ve had many upswings and overall I’m doing much better than I was, and I will get healed eventually, but I don’t expect to make any progress when I’m not working out.d

It’s very annoying to make appointments with local doctors, but I’m thinking about finally getting my testosterone, DHT, etc, re-checked. (I won’t go on TRT or Clomid, obviously.) Mostly it would be so I could retest it 3 - 6 months later and see how much I’m able to boost it. Unfortunately, the at-home testosterone test kit companies do not ship to New York, it’s apparently illegal or something (probably BS lobbying by the doctors.)

I feel like to get my levels consistently up, I might need to do a water fast, since I don’t want to go the pharma route of resorting to a microdose of Triptorelin. I don’t think the juice feast I did shuts down your HTPA like a water fast does, because your calories don’t reach a critically low level where your body starts shutting down “accessories” like your hormones. But that’s what I’m looking for, a HTPA reboot in a low-risk way. Because I feel like slowly raising it like 1% per month or whatever, is not going to cut it. In 2019 after I got mono and fasted, when I ate again, I felt amazing and had consistent morning wood through my upswings and downswings, for over half a year (ending only after several months of not working out at the gym, because it was closed due to Covid.) I feel like if the pandemic didn’t happen, I’d be cured by now.

Next Steps
I’m wrapping up the 8 day tribulus-only cycle. I will jump back into the workouts on Monday after getting my second vaccine dose, and add in HIIT on my off days like I’m supposed to. And then I’m also thinking about experimenting with alternating Apr1989’s tribulus cycle, and doing the TMO herbal rotation in between the trib cycles to see if that works better for me, given how good I’m feeling on the low dose of tribulus. I would do the 8-day trib cycle and then 8 or 13 days of the TMO herbal rotation. Then, when my androsterone arrives, I could do a cycle of that for 4 to 6 weeks, then go back to the TMO and Trib rotations for however long I did the andro cycle. Maybe throw in a water fast depending on how I’m feeling.

Ok so a lot of information to go off here, but I want to make one thing clear, because a lot of what is written on PropeciaHelp is a load of pseudo-scientific nonsense, proposed by people who are either a. scientifically illiterate, b. haven't read any of the studies, or c. both of the aforementioned things. The idea that once the 5 AR inhibition is removed, a deluge of androgenic hormones (in this case DHT) is released, which then causes the now sensitized androgen receptors to shut down and become desensitized makes very little sense. If anything, what has been quantifiably proven is that there are in fact *more* androgen receptors than there were before, i.e. the androgen receptors should be more receptive than they were previously. Also, it doesn't explain why the same isn't true of the type 1 alpha-reductase enzyme, which can also be affected (especially with alternatives to finasteride, such as dutasteride) , and yet doesn't cause a shut down of the GABA A receptor once allopregnanolone floods the brain again.

Therefore, the only reasonable deduction to make as to why androgen receptors are not functioning correctly is that an epigenetic change has occurred, where these receptors have become overly-methylated, and therefore cannot adequately react to hormones. If you believe this to be the case, it can be tested for, I'm pretty sure. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) & Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) can be accurately diagnosed through genetic testing, amongst other biomarkers but I am of the opinion that these receptors aren't methylated in any case.

The reason I bring all this up is that if it is indeed correct that the issue is that the androgen receptors have undergone epigenetic change, then I don't see how Tribulus would be beneficial in restoring proper receptor function, if the main mechanism of action is as you say (and I have read) increasing the number of androgen receptors.

The final point I wish to make is that brain fog is not usually linked with the androgenic changes in the brain (despite brain fog being a common complaint of individuals with low testosterone), but rather the levels of allopregnanolone in the brain. This is why many individuals have seen their brain fog disappear with the alpha-reduced precursor to allopregnanolone, 5a-DHP, and why others have been able to use SSRIs to get rid of their brain fog (SSRIs are also used to increase the conversion rate of 5a-DHP to allopregnanolone). It's also the reason why brain fog, and other cognitive complaints, are rarer in PFS than sexual complaints (i.e. Finasteride preferentially targets the type 2 enzyme in lieu of the type 1)

If you are especially keen on fixing these androgen receptors, I'd have a look at demethylating agents (things like butyrates can be helpful at this), although I would definitely ask a doctor to test you to see whether they have changed in the first place.

Hope I haven't misinterpreted what you've written, and that you're doing ok.

[LetsGo]

Ok so a lot of information to go off here, but I want to make one thing clear, because a lot of what is written on PropeciaHelp is a load of pseudo-scientific nonsense, proposed by people who are either a. scientifically illiterate, b. haven't read any of the studies, or c. both of the aforementioned things. The idea that once the 5 AR inhibition is removed, a deluge of androgenic hormones (in this case DHT) is released, which then causes the now sensitized androgen receptors to shut down and become desensitized makes very little sense. If anything, what has been quantifiably proven is that there are in fact *more* androgen receptors than there were before, i.e. the androgen receptors should be more receptive than they were previously. Also, it doesn't explain why the same isn't true of the type 1 alpha-reductase enzyme, which can also be affected (especially with alternatives to finasteride, such as dutasteride) , and yet doesn't cause a shut down of the GABA A receptor once allopregnanolone floods the brain again.

Therefore, the only reasonable deduction to make as to why androgen receptors are not functioning correctly is that an epigenetic change has occurred, where these receptors have become overly-methylated, and therefore cannot adequately react to hormones. If you believe this to be the case, it can be tested for, I'm pretty sure. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) & Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) can be accurately diagnosed through genetic testing, amongst other biomarkers but I am of the opinion that these receptors aren't methylated in any case.

The reason I bring all this up is that if it is indeed correct that the issue is that the androgen receptors have undergone epigenetic change, then I don't see how Tribulus would be beneficial in restoring proper receptor function, if the main mechanism of action is as you say (and I have read) increasing the number of androgen receptors.

The final point I wish to make is that brain fog is not usually linked with the androgenic changes in the brain (despite brain fog being a common complaint of individuals with low testosterone), but rather the levels of allopregnanolone in the brain. This is why many individuals have seen their brain fog disappear with the alpha-reduced precursor to allopregnanolone, 5a-DHP, and why others have been able to use SSRIs to get rid of their brain fog (SSRIs are also used to increase the conversion rate of 5a-DHP to allopregnanolone). It's also the reason why brain fog, and other cognitive complaints, are rarer in PFS than sexual complaints (i.e. Finasteride preferentially targets the type 2 enzyme in lieu of the type 1)

If you are especially keen on fixing these androgen receptors, I'd have a look at demethylating agents (things like butyrates can be helpful at this), although I would definitely ask a doctor to test you to see whether they have changed in the first place.

Hope I haven't misinterpreted what you've written, and that you're doing ok.

Thanks for your message. You seem to know more about the finer details and the science, and I probably shouldn’t have gotten into the whole speculation about how it helps or works, since there are many mysteries around PFS. Nobody has a specific disease model that has been accepted by the scientific community, and until that happens I’m not sure what the actual cause is.

One thing to keep in mind is that the androgen receptor tests that have been done, at Baylor, were penile tests. PFS is a disorder of the brain and the HTPA, and in my opinion the penis is just along for the ride. That’s why guys getting analyses of their dicks end up not finding anything wrong - no nerve damage despite lack of sensitivity, normal receptors, etc.

To do a test on the androgen receptors in the brain would require a tissue sample from the brain, from whatever specific region or regions. Obviously we can’t do that, and I’m not aware of PFS patients’ brains being studied after they die, to check the receptors. I don’t think it’s been done, so I don’t know what the brain receptors are like with PFS.

The levels could be high in the penis and low in the brain - we don’t know. Also, we don’t know what tribulus does exactly, or how it works. Nobody will spend millions on a study for tribulus, because you can’t patent it like a drug, so there’s no funding for the study. If tribulus demethylated the methylated androgen receptors, I don’t think we’d know that based on the existing studies.

I’m not really concerned with the actual scientific causes of PFS, or trying to micro-target one hormone or whatever. I’m only concerned with what works, in the safest and fastest way.

If I thought that PFS was caused by gremlins who live on the moon, and that the CDsnuts protocol will scare off the moon gremlins, it wouldn’t matter. As long as you’re doing the steps to recover, it doesn’t matter if the person’s understanding of PFS or the cure is wrong.

If we learn the true cause and you have something that laser targets that true cause, you could fix it fast. But there could be a constellation of things going on, maybe more than methylated receptors, maybe some factor science has never explored. Until there’s an accepted disease model, we don’t know the true cause and we just try to do the best we can.

My guess is that there’s a complex web of things going on with PFS, and it involves androgen receptors in the brain, in some way. And I also believe that tribulus (Bulgarian aerial portions) helps that in some way.

Apr1989 fully recovered with tribulus, and others made great progress, and the use of tribulus (at some level,) is a common thread among many recoveries, including CDsnuts and the recoveries from this board. I’m not sure if it’s a magic bullet, but it could be an under-used tool.

I’ve noticed major libido and daytime erection gains on a low dose of tribulus, even as I taper off of it. It could be demethylating receptors, replacing methalyated ones with demethylated ones, chasing away moon gremlins, it’s all good.

Tone can sometimes come across weird in text and I haven’t been getting good sleep, so I apologize if any of this came across as confrontational and not conversational. Thanks for taking the time out to comment, and I agree that PH is full of madness. I truly don’t know what causes PFS, just trying something that seems to be helping.

I would not let a doctor take biopsies of my brain to test for the methylation level of my androgen receptors, and I don’t think you’d want me to either. I don’t think there’s any other way for them to test it.

It seems like butyrates are from gut bacteria and eating fiber? I get lots of fiber and still have PFS, so I don’t know if that’s the key. Are there any specific probiotics or prebiotics you’d recommend, and did you make progress with them? I’m always willing to try safe non-pharma solutions :)

[Cdsnuts]

Lol you mean people on PH didn’t follow a protocol and then claimed said protocol didn’t work?? Shocking

lmao.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks for your message. You seem to know more about the finer details and the science, and I probably shouldn’t have gotten into the whole speculation about how it helps or works, since there are many mysteries around PFS. Nobody has a specific disease model that has been accepted by the scientific community, and until that happens I’m not sure what the actual cause is.

One thing to keep in mind is that the androgen receptor tests that have been done, at Baylor, were penile tests. PFS is a disorder of the brain and the HTPA, and in my opinion the penis is just along for the ride. That’s why guys getting analyses of their dicks end up not finding anything wrong - no nerve damage despite lack of sensitivity, normal receptors, etc.

To do a test on the androgen receptors in the brain would require a tissue sample from the brain, from whatever specific region or regions. Obviously we can’t do that, and I’m not aware of PFS patients’ brains being studied after they die, to check the receptors. I don’t think it’s been done, so I don’t know what the brain receptors are like with PFS.

The levels could be high in the penis and low in the brain - we don’t know. Also, we don’t know what tribulus does exactly, or how it works. Nobody will spend millions on a study for tribulus, because you can’t patent it like a drug, so there’s no funding for the study. If tribulus demethylated the methylated androgen receptors, I don’t think we’d know that based on the existing studies.

I’m not really concerned with the actual scientific causes of PFS, or trying to micro-target one hormone or whatever. I’m only concerned with what works, in the safest and fastest way.

If I thought that PFS was caused by gremlins who live on the moon, and that the CDsnuts protocol will scare off the moon gremlins, it wouldn’t matter. As long as you’re doing the steps to recover, it doesn’t matter if the person’s understanding of PFS or the cure is wrong.

If we learn the true cause and you have something that laser targets that true cause, you could fix it fast. But there could be a constellation of things going on, maybe more than methylated receptors, maybe some factor science has never explored. Until there’s an accepted disease model, we don’t know the true cause and we just try to do the best we can.

My guess is that there’s a complex web of things going on with PFS, and it involves androgen receptors in the brain, in some way. And I also believe that tribulus (Bulgarian aerial portions) helps that in some way.

Apr1989 fully recovered with tribulus, and others made great progress, and the use of tribulus (at some level,) is a common thread among many recoveries, including CDsnuts and the recoveries from this board. I’m not sure if it’s a magic bullet, but it could be an under-used tool.

I’ve noticed major libido and daytime erection gains on a low dose of tribulus, even as I taper off of it. It could be demethylating receptors, replacing methalyated ones with demethylated ones, chasing away moon gremlins, it’s all good.

Tone can sometimes come across weird in text and I haven’t been getting good sleep, so I apologize if any of this came across as confrontational and not conversational. Thanks for taking the time out to comment, and I agree that PH is full of madness. I truly don’t know what causes PFS, just trying something that seems to be helping.

I would not let a doctor take biopsies of my brain to test for the methylation level of my androgen receptors, and I don’t think you’d want me to either. I don’t think there’s any other way for them to test it.

It seems like butyrates are from gut bacteria and eating fiber? I get lots of fiber and still have PFS, so I don’t know if that’s the key. Are there any specific probiotics or prebiotics you’d recommend, and did you make progress with them? I’m always willing to try safe non-pharma solutions :)

Trib on its own is not going to cure pfs. Imagine how easy things would be if that was the case?

He may believe that the trib cured him, but if he recovered by just using that, he was going to recover on his own most likely anyway. He could have probably just waited it out and it would have worked itself out, like the majority of guys who take fin with no problems.

Also, I want to remind you guys that we typically keep talk to protocol specific things simply for the new guys ease of understanding how to get going on the protocol. You know how it is in the beginning.....scared, anxious, depressed, can't think straight.

The other thing is not to wander too far from what is outlined. It's very easy to do, but will rarely give you the results you want.

[LetsGo]

Trib on its own is not going to cure pfs. Imagine how easy things would be if that was the case?

He may believe that the trib cured him, but if he recovered by just using that, he was going to recover on his own most likely anyway. He could have probably just waited it out and it would have worked itself out, like the majority of guys who take fin with no problems.

Also, I want to remind you guys that we typically keep talk to protocol specific things simply for the new guys ease of understanding how to get going on the protocol. You know how it is in the beginning.....scared, anxious, depressed, can't think straight.

The other thing is not to wander too far from what is outlined. It's very easy to do, but will rarely give you the results you want.

Yeah, I’m not sure whether or not trib by itself (even following a special regimen of tapering and breaks,) could cure PFS. The rub is that it’s a special kind of tribulus that isn’t widely available, but the concept of a moonshot one-herb cure seems too good to be true.

According to his timeline, he had full-blown PFS for at least 7 or 8 months with no improvement (assuming he made his account as soon as he stopped taking finasteride and not some months later,) and then improved and fully recovered over about 3 or 4 months, during his experiment with trib. He said the symptoms improved or worsened based on whether he too little, too much, or didn’t taper up or down properly. However, that’s not massively far off (normal recovery is within 2 - 4 weeks, or up to 1 - 6 months,) and it still could have been a natural recovery, or a fluke recovery. I did have a huge upswing that started last week - though it’s likely coincidental. Also, I’m finally getting back in the gym as of yesterday, so that will be a huge boost.

[Mojo]

Maybe a bit of a derail here, sorry for that. But what irks me sometimes when people bring up “PFS recoveries” is that it is such a vague thing to say. I don’t know this case but it sounds like he had sexual issues, which he alleviated by taking large doses of a quality aphrodisiac. Maybe that isn’t that far fetched?

People start arguing when bringing up solutions and protocols because everyone seems to have varying interpretations of what PFS is based on personal symptoms. To me the thought of mass dosing tribulus will onviously not appeal since my issues are mental. And then you have CD who had every symptom in the book and was going through hell on a yearly basis. So I can’t blame CD or his peers when he is condescending when it comes to these ‘bite sized protocols’, while he figured out an all encompassing and multifaceted way of going forward.

All these protocols are nice to know, and I appreciate you bringing it up and experimenting with it. But people need to look at these things with adjusted expectations. At the same time I wish others would take caution when declaring solutions when it just doesn’t apply to everyone.

Sorry for the psuedo rant here, and it’s not personal at all. It’s just something that has bothered me for a while. I remember endlessly roaming PH back in the days reading of all kinds of protocols that where supposed to fix my issues when in the end my issues where maybe not even relevant.

‘X fixed his PFS with Y’ is just a bit if a pet peeve for me as everyone has his own mental image of what PFS means to them.

[LetsGo]

Maybe a bit of a derail here, sorry for that. But what irks me sometimes when people bring up “PFS recoveries” is that it is such a vague thing to say. I don’t know this case but it sounds like he had sexual issues, which he alleviated by taking large doses of a quality aphrodisiac. Maybe that isn’t that far fetched?

People start arguing when bringing up solutions and protocols because everyone seems to have varying interpretations of what PFS is based on personal symptoms. To me the thought of mass dosing tribulus will onviously not appeal since my issues are mental. And then you have CD who had every symptom in the book and was going through hell on a yearly basis. So I can’t blame CD or his peers when he is condescending when it comes to these ‘bite sized protocols’, while he figured out an all encompassing and multifaceted way of going forward.

All these protocols are nice to know, and I appreciate you bringing it up and experimenting with it. But people need to look at these things with adjusted expectations. At the same time I wish others would take caution when declaring solutions when it just doesn’t apply to everyone.

Sorry for the psuedo rant here, and it’s not personal at all. It’s just something that has bothered me for a while. I remember endlessly roaming PH back in the days reading of all kinds of protocols that where supposed to fix my issues when in the end my issues where maybe not even relevant.

‘X fixed his PFS with Y’ is just a bit if a pet peeve for me as everyone has his own mental image of what PFS means to them.

I didn’t find CD to be condescending in his response to my post; I’ve known him on this board for two years, and he’s always been nice to me. Sometimes he’s direct, but I know him well enough that I did not interpret what he said as being condescending or slapping me down or anything like that.

I don’t want to repeat everything I already said, but from where I’m sitting, it felt like words were being put into my mouth. I never said that mass tribulus doses were “the new cure for PFS,” or that anyone should do anything other than the protocol. If you need anything clarified you can send me a DM. If you end up not follwing my thread and/or deciding to avoid me, that’s completely alright and my feelings won’t be hurt. Wishing you peace and a speedy recovery.

[Cdsnuts]

I didn’t find CD to be condescending in his response to my post; I’ve known him on this board for two years, and he’s always been nice to me. Sometimes he’s direct, but I know him well enough that I did not interpret what he said as being condescending or slapping me down or anything like that.

I don’t want to repeat everything I already said, but from where I’m sitting, it felt like words were being put into my mouth. I never said that mass tribulus doses were “the new cure for PFS,” or that anyone should do anything other than the protocol. If you need anything clarified you can send me a DM. If you end up not follwing my thread and/or deciding to avoid me, that’s completely alright and my feelings won’t be hurt. Wishing you peace and a speedy recovery.

If I came across as condescending, my apologies. That is certainly never my intention. But I think you hit the nail right on the head. I took no offense to anything you said. I simply try and gently remind everyone on this board that these stories of recoveries where someone uses one thing or the other is typically someone who is going to recover naturally anyway.

I can tell you at my worst if all I did was take trib everyday, I'd still be in the same spot I was ten years ago. Nothing more, nothing less.

I find your log to be very thorough and helpful to others, so keep it up!

[LetsGo]

If I came across as condescending, my apologies. That is certainly never my intention. But I think you hit the nail right on the head. I took no offense to anything you said. I simply try and gently remind everyone on this board that these stories of recoveries where someone uses one thing or the other is typically someone who is going to recover naturally anyway.

I can tell you at my worst if all I did was take trib everyday, I'd still be in the same spot I was ten years ago. Nothing more, nothing less.

I find your log to be very thorough and helpful to others, so keep it up!

No worries, you weren’t condescending :) And yeah, I think that the combination of all the different elements of the protocol is the best thing for progress and recovery.

[Mojo]

Maybe condescending wasn’t the word I was looking for lol, apprehensive seems more suitable.

Also again, my post has nothing to do with you. It’s something I just felt like I had to get of my chest but didn’t feel like making a thread about it. In retrospect it did come of a bit strong and I probably should not have dumped this turd in your personal log, my apologies hehe

It’s just weird sometimes when I read things like some dude curing his PFS when it seems very unlikely that trib will rid me of panic attacks and insomnia. Just because my PFS isn’t his PFS.

My vemoheb arrived today, curious to test it out vs my old generic trib in my rotation soon.

[LetsGo]

Maybe condescending wasn’t the word I was looking for lol, apprehensive seems more suitable.

Also again, my post has nothing to do with you. It’s something I just felt like I had to get of my chest but didn’t feel like making a thread about it. In retrospect it did come of a bit strong and I probably should not have dumped this turd in your personal log, my apologies hehe

It’s just weird sometimes when I read things like some dude curing his PFS when it seems very unlikely that trib will rid me of panic attacks and insomnia. Just because my PFS isn’t his PFS.

My vemoheb arrived today, curious to test it out vs my old generic trib in my rotation soon.

No worries, thanks for the clarification!

If you have your own thread that might be a better place to talk about this, but if your only PFS symptoms are panic attacks, anxiety, and insomnia, then you should double and triple down on meditation, breathing, cold showers, see a talk therapist if you’re allowed to do that without losing your pilot’s license, etc. There is a hormonal component from PFS anxiety and panic, yes, but you have to attack PFS from every angle, and that includes un-learning the thought patterns and catastrophic thinking that is heavily contributing to your panic attacks. Your body is not a machine that is just having panic attacks due solely to hormonal/neurosteroid dysfunction, you are also a psychological being.

Your thoughts massively affect your emotional state, which in turn affects your thoughts.

When you fix the psychological side of the equation, you will be left with only the PFS causes, so the symptoms will be a lot better. And by the same token, even if you 100% recover hormonally/chemically, if you habitually engaged in catastrophic thinking, guess what? You’d have panic attacks even after recovering from PFS. So you’re going to have to address it at some point. Even though it started out as PFS-induced, if your anxiety and panic continued, then it builds its own momentum because you’d still have the catastrophic thinking induced panic attacks.

I’m going to guess that maybe you’re laying awake at night thinking: “I really hope I never have a panic attack while I’m flying. Oh man, I’ll lose my medical certificate. I’ll probably get fired. Oh man, oh man. I’ll be so fucked. I can’t do anything but fly planes, if I lose that, I’m finished. I’ll be homeless. If I can’t get cured it’s just a matter of time. Oh man, oh man…” Well no wonder you can’t sleep! And that lack of sleep makes your anxiety worse, makes you more vulnerable to panic, makes your PFS symptoms worse. That type of thinking is called catastrohpic thinking, and it literally causes panic attacks, even in non-PFS people. Anyone can give themselves panic attacks if they get into the habit of catastrophic thinking (which is addictive) and you need the right therapist to un-learn all the unhealthy coping mechanisms that PFS “taught” you. Once you’ve addressed the psych angle then your PFS symptoms will be “on their own” and your overall symptoms will be less severe.

A CBT or REBT therapist is the right kind to see about this. REBT is arguably the best for that. Usually you learn all the techniques within a few months, it’s not the kind of thearapy where you lay on a black couch and talk about what dreams you had last night or what happened in your childhood. So assuming you’re allowed to do that in Europe and keep your medical certificate, go do that and consider it part of your overall recovery strategy. Just remember: don’t let them tell you to take drugs. If you’re truly not allowed to see any therapist period, there are resources where you can learn about it yourself and try to be your own therapist by reading the works of Albert Ellis. The techniques are learnable on your own, but it’ll be better and faster if you have an REBT therapist to work with.

Vemoherb is good stuff, hopefully it’ll give you good results. I’m surprised at how strongly I respond to it.

[Mojo]

If you have your own thread that might be a better place to talk about this, but if your only PFS symptoms are panic attacks, anxiety, and insomnia, then you should double and triple down on meditation, breathing, cold showers, see a talk therapist if you’re allowed to do that without losing your pilot’s license, etc. There is a hormonal component from PFS anxiety and panic, yes, but you have to attack PFS from every angle, and that includes un-learning the thought patterns and catastrophic thinking that is heavily contributing to your panic attacks. Your body is not a machine that is just having panic attacks due solely to hormonal/neurosteroid dysfunction, you are also a psychological being.

Your thoughts massively affect your emotional state, which in turn affects your thoughts.

When you fix the psychological side of the equation, you will be left with only the PFS causes, so the symptoms will be a lot better. And by the same token, even if you 100% recover hormonally/chemically, if you habitually engaged in catastrophic thinking, guess what? You’d have panic attacks even after recovering from PFS. So you’re going to have to address it at some point. Even though it started out as PFS-induced, if your anxiety and panic continued, then it builds its own momentum because you’d still have the catastrophic thinking induced panic m.

You absolutely nailed it. I’m trying my best to convince myself of this. A year of mental conditioning is hard to reverse but I’m making progress. I have finally found a good CBT therapist that will assist me through it.

Also had a neurotransmitter test done by an endricologist (gave me like 2 boxes for free), and my noradrenaline was high, serotonin low. Apparently normal results for someone with PTSD or long term mental stress. My plan is to give 5HTP another go (elevates ser, depletes nor) and go all in on the mental game. Feeling optimistic ever since I learned to accept that I’m in a cycle of fear that is likely causing the gross of my problems.

Thanks for the support man.

[Cdsnuts]

You absolutely nailed it. I’m trying my best to convince myself of this. A year of mental conditioning is hard to reverse but I’m making progress. I have finally found a good CBT therapist that will assist me through it.

Also had a neurotransmitter test done by an endricologist (gave me like 2 boxes for free), and my noradrenaline was high, serotonin low. Apparently normal results for someone with PTSD or long term mental stress. My plan is to give 5HTP another go (elevates ser, depletes nor) and go all in on the mental game. Feeling optimistic ever since I learned to accept that I’m in a cycle of fear that is likely causing the gross of my problems.

Thanks for the support man.

Are you practicing the breathing exercises and mediation daily?

- - - Updated - - -


No worries, thanks for the clarification!

If you have your own thread that might be a better place to talk about this, but if your only PFS symptoms are panic attacks, anxiety, and insomnia, then you should double and triple down on meditation, breathing, cold showers, see a talk therapist if you’re allowed to do that without losing your pilot’s license, etc. There is a hormonal component from PFS anxiety and panic, yes, but you have to attack PFS from every angle, and that includes un-learning the thought patterns and catastrophic thinking that is heavily contributing to your panic attacks. Your body is not a machine that is just having panic attacks due solely to hormonal/neurosteroid dysfunction, you are also a psychological being.

Your thoughts massively affect your emotional state, which in turn affects your thoughts.

When you fix the psychological side of the equation, you will be left with only the PFS causes, so the symptoms will be a lot better. And by the same token, even if you 100% recover hormonally/chemically, if you habitually engaged in catastrophic thinking, guess what? You’d have panic attacks even after recovering from PFS. So you’re going to have to address it at some point. Even though it started out as PFS-induced, if your anxiety and panic continued, then it builds its own momentum because you’d still have the catastrophic thinking induced panic attacks.

I’m going to guess that maybe you’re laying awake at night thinking: “I really hope I never have a panic attack while I’m flying. Oh man, I’ll lose my medical certificate. I’ll probably get fired. Oh man, oh man. I’ll be so fucked. I can’t do anything but fly planes, if I lose that, I’m finished. I’ll be homeless. If I can’t get cured it’s just a matter of time. Oh man, oh man…” Well no wonder you can’t sleep! And that lack of sleep makes your anxiety worse, makes you more vulnerable to panic, makes your PFS symptoms worse. That type of thinking is called catastrohpic thinking, and it literally causes panic attacks, even in non-PFS people. Anyone can give themselves panic attacks if they get into the habit of catastrophic thinking (which is addictive) and you need the right therapist to un-learn all the unhealthy coping mechanisms that PFS “taught” you. Once you’ve addressed the psych angle then your PFS symptoms will be “on their own” and your overall symptoms will be less severe.

A CBT or REBT therapist is the right kind to see about this. REBT is arguably the best for that. Usually you learn all the techniques within a few months, it’s not the kind of thearapy where you lay on a black couch and talk about what dreams you had last night or what happened in your childhood. So assuming you’re allowed to do that in Europe and keep your medical certificate, go do that and consider it part of your overall recovery strategy. Just remember: don’t let them tell you to take drugs. If you’re truly not allowed to see any therapist period, there are resources where you can learn about it yourself and try to be your own therapist by reading the works of Albert Ellis. The techniques are learnable on your own, but it’ll be better and faster if you have an REBT therapist to work with.

Vemoherb is good stuff, hopefully it’ll give you good results. I’m surprised at how strongly I respond to it.

Fantastic post. Thanks.

[Mojo]

Are you practicing the breathing exercises and mediation daily?

- - - Updated - - -



Fantastic post. Thanks.

Yea pretty much daily. But my mind is filled with unshakable doubt because of my OCD tendencies. Breathing and showers usually calm me down enough, but I need some extra ways of readjusting the way I think about things. The chaos feels so ingrained at this point that I can’t control it during my sleep. And then waking up from intense nightmares and having to get out of bed every 3 hours to do breathing is such a drag that only made me hate sleeping even more. Wim hoff was the biggest game changer so far tho, I’m recommending it to everyone.

My LEH order that contains my blue vervain has been held at customs for a month now, it’s getting real annoying.

I think I’m going to go for a stretch of daily multi hour meditation for a bit and see what that gives me. Sort of a mental cleanse / fast

[Cdsnuts]

Yea pretty much daily. But my mind is filled with unshakable doubt because of my OCD tendencies. Breathing and showers usually calm me down enough, but I need some extra ways of readjusting the way I think about things. The chaos feels so ingrained at this point that I can’t control it during my sleep. And then waking up from intense nightmares and having to get out of bed every 3 hours to do breathing is such a drag that only made me hate sleeping even more. Wim hoff was the biggest game changer so far tho, I’m recommending it to everyone.

My LEH order that contains my blue vervain has been held at customs for a month now, it’s getting real annoying.

I think I’m going to go for a stretch of daily multi hour meditation for a bit and see what that gives me. Sort of a mental cleanse / fast

If it's that bad you could always cheat and use holosync. That will FORCE your mind into the state you want it to be in. Force maybe too strong a word......it gently pulls your mind into the state created by the binarual beats.

Usually mediation is hard enough on it's own. Breathing BEFORE mediation really helps calm the mind. But if you need that extra push, holosync will get you there. Meditate WHILE listening to it. Game changer.

But yeah, Wim Hof is certainly a huge find.

Calming the Mind | Total Male Optimization (https://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/calming-the-mind/)

I found this REALLY helpful in the beginning. I don't need it now because I'm seasoned, but it is what started me down the meditation road and honestly, I don't know how hard it would have been without it given my mind state at the time. I can relate.

[Mojo]

Thanks man, I’ll check it out. The one I’m using now, headspace, seems to be a lot more traditional in the sense of meditation.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks man, I’ll check it out. The one I’m using now, headspace, seems to be a lot more traditional in the sense of meditation.

How? Does it use binaural beats?

Edit: I just realized we're hijacking his thread. If it uses binaural beats then you'll be fine.

[LetsGo]

How? Does it use binaural beats?

Edit: I just realized we're hijacking his thread. If it uses binaural beats then you'll be fine.

Headspace doesn’t use binaural beats. There’s an English man or woman’s voice, guiding you through the meditation exercise for 10, 15, or 20 minutes and you can pick different courses to work on, one per day.

[Cdsnuts]

Headspace doesn’t use binaural beats. There’s an English man or woman’s voice, guiding you through the meditation exercise for 10, 15, or 20 minutes and you can pick different courses to work on, one per day.

Not even close to holosync bro....not even close.

[Mojo]

Not even close to holosync bro....not even close.

I have a binaural beats playlist on spotify. I remembering it helped my back in the days when I crashed. Guess I can listen to that again while I meditate.

[Cdsnuts]

I have a binaural beats playlist on spotify. I remembering it helped my back in the days when I crashed. Guess I can listen to that again while I meditate.

I'm just saying.....if you're having that much trouble with the brain not settling during meditation, binaural beats will "push" your brain into the state you need it in. Not sure of the quality of what you're using, but it would be better then NOT using it during this time.

[LetsGo]

After my first weeklong experiment with tribulus triggered an upswing all by itself, I took a break from it for a week and restarted it, but it didn’t have the same effect the second time. I’ll probably need to take a longer break, but if it’s a way to reliably force myself to have an upswing then I think that would be nice. Or if it could strengthen or prolong an upswing, that’d be great. Maybe after a full month break from trib I will give it a try again, but of course it could be a fluke and maybe it won’t have that effect ever again, in which case at least I have higher-quality tribulus. I still have a hint of the tribulus taste in my mouth even a week after I stopped taking it, so it must take awhile to clear out of the body and for the tolerance to dissipate.

Anyway, I’m back in the gym now, and I’m doing sprints at the park on the non-gym days. (I found a better place to do the sprints, it’s a lot easier when I do them in a loop around a beautiful 300 meter long pond.) I’m doing the herbal rotation as always. My weight is down 20 lbs, and I’m hoping that adding the muscle back will help my testosterone and give me more upswings. As part of that, I’m watching my calories and protein to ensure I’m getting enough.

I want to get to that point where I’m having upswings more frequently. I hope that finally being militant about doing the sprints AND the lifting, 7 days per week combined, will lead to more progress and upswings.

I’m in a slump symptom-wise, and I feel like my testosterone is still low. I know morning wood isn’t the end-all be-all, but it’s an accurate barometer of testosterone. It’s usually like a 1/4th pre-erection kind of deal, which is better than nothing (which it was for many years.) I’m not sure that I’ll be able to benefit from the andosterone prohormones since my testosterone is low, so I will probably have to wait until I’m getting consistent morning wood, or an upswing, and then start it then, hoping for it to sustain the upswing a bit longer or something. Back when I tried the other prohormone, I felt nothing positive or negative from it, aside from terrible insomnia. So maybe your testosterone has to be high enough for it to do anything.

I feel like I still have brain fog, like I’ve had it mostly the whole time, except I think during upswings. I’m not sure if it’s brain fog or just the effects of not getting enough sleep, though. Somehow I’m able to do fine at work, including complicated legal stuff - so I don’t know if it’s really brain fog. I can think clearly, but I sometimes feel disconnected from everything, and spacey.

I’m trending upwards in the sleep department as I instituted a strict no phone in the bedroom rule. I still feel an urge to waste time on it, but I’m cutting back. Possibly the best thing would be to do a digital cleanse as CD said, although I don’t know what I’d do with myself. All my friends are 130 miles away, and I do need my phone to talk to clients and stuff. It will be nice when I no longer reflexively reach over to where my phone usually is, when I’m having trouble falling asleep. I just need to train myself to turn off. Also the phone embargo is helping me with NoFap. It’s probably the absolute key to it, for me. The longest I’ve gone this year was a mere 4 days - which is not good. Back in 2017 I used to go 14 days without any effort, because I really had almost no libido. (My brother told me that was completely normal libido, which was shocking to me, but everyone is different. Pre-fin normal for me, in my late 20s so this wasn’t a teenager thing - was every day. If I took off a full day I couldn’t concentrate on anything.)

The fact that I have had some libido progress, and upswings, should be encouraging and it should mean that I didn’t lose all my gains. Also back in December and January I had a good upswing, and another one in March. So… that’s not nothing, even though it’s not great. With things more dialed-in, I should start feeling less shitty in a few weeks or a month.

Years ago, I used to feel like such an old man every morning as I got out of bed, and I don’t feel that way anymore. I never feel refreshed, I never feel full of life and energy, but I also don’t feel like I’m a dead man walking.

And now… it’s bedtime. Shockingly, I’m actually tired around midnight, and not 2:30 AM. If I could reliably get 7 or 7.5 hours of sleep every night, it would be a game changer. 8 hours would be amazing.

[johnsmith]

There's an app called "Freedom" that I would highly recommend. Chris Bailey recommends it. I bought a life time subscription for it. It's great for blocking apps, and websites on all of your devices at the same time. Time is money and an app like this can save you a lot of time. I don't have the will power to fight internet addiction etc. on my own, but this app definitely helps.

[Cdsnuts]

There's an app called "Freedom" that I would highly recommend. Chris Bailey recommends it. I bought a life time subscription for it. It's great for blocking apps, and websites on all of your devices at the same time. Time is money and an app like this can save you a lot of time. I don't have the will power to fight internet addiction etc. on my own, but this app definitely helps.

Wouldn't buying a flip phone do the same thing. Then you can use it for what it was meant to be used for, calling people.

[johnsmith]

Wouldn't buying a flip phone do the same thing. Then you can use it for what it was meant to be used for, calling people.

Haha, yea it definitely would. I didn't know you guys were into flip phones. That's awesome. Flip phones also give off less EMF's etc.

[Cdsnuts]

Haha, yea it definitely would. I didn't know you guys were into flip phones. That's awesome. Flip phones also give off less EMF's etc.

Honestly, I loved the flip phone era. It just felt more like a phone and it was always pleasurable to hang up on someone by flipping the thing closed. It's just not the same on a smart phone. That being said, I was the last hold out of all my friends to get a smart phone...finally had to break down and get one in 2012. Now, simply because of it's capabilities, it's impossible for me to go back, although I do miss my Razor......lol

[LetsGo]

So I’m closing in on 2 weeks of being fully back to the workouts, including sprints, and so far I’m still deep in a downswing. Obviously these things take time and I know that by now but it’s still annoying. I’m still a long ways behind where I was when I first quit gluten, when I started getting morning wood every day and more frequent upswings. I don’t really know that I’ll be fully recovered later this year like I was saying, but we’ll see how things go.

I end up eating most of my calories for the day in the evening after my workout of the day. I can’t really think of stuff that I’m doing wrong except that I should get more sleep (I’m improving in that area). We’ll see how a long NoFap streak goes, not sure it will have a major impact but it’s something that has to be done anyway and it’s not like I experience pleasure from it anyway.

I’m not sure if I lost all of my PFS-recovery gains, I think I may have. Damn Covid.

[LetsGo]

I’m not sure if it sets me back if I fap every 4th or 5th day.

If so then I need some kind of new strategy to deal with it. It’s not even real strong libido but I just feel compelled to act on it when it’s there. I don’t go to any adult websites, but still. Not sure how detrimental that is or if that’s like the one missing piece that will make my progress a lot faster.

[MungYarlon]

I’m not sure if it sets me back if I fap every 4th or 5th day.

If so then I need some kind of new strategy to deal with it. It’s not even real strong libido but I just feel compelled to act on it when it’s there. I don’t go to any adult websites, but still. Not sure how detrimental that is or if that’s like the one missing piece that will make my progress a lot faster.

This issue is, though, your condition could be tied to POIS. It's something I've always struggled with, and something I never knew others didn't experience (i.e. brain fog, memory issues etc. after masturbation)
Postorgasmic illness syndrome - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postorgasmic_illness_syndrome)

[LetsGo]

This issue is, though, your condition could be tied to POIS. It's something I've always struggled with, and something I never knew others didn't experience (i.e. brain fog, memory issues etc. after masturbation)
Postorgasmic illness syndrome - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postorgasmic_illness_syndrome)

Thanks for the reply, but I don’t get any of those symptoms after I ejaculate, and I have never really struggled with premature ejaculation except in the early days of PFS. I don’t think it’s likely that in my late 20s, I would develop POIS coincidentally at the exact same time as PFS, and if I did, it would be caused by the PFS and it would go away when I cure my PFS. So this isn’t a lifetime issue that I would have to deal with.

I do get a total loss of libido after ejaculating, and then it takes several days to get any libido back, whereas pre fin I had a vastly better and stronger libido with strong morning wood every day. During upswings my libido quickly rebounds after ejaculation.

I feel like my situation is just straight PFS without any other disorders on top of it.

[MungYarlon]

Thanks for the reply, but I don’t get any of those symptoms after I ejaculate, and I have never really struggled with premature ejaculation except in the early days of PFS.

I get a loss of libido after ejaculating, and then it takes several days to get any libido back, whereas pre fin I had a vastly better and stronger libido with strong morning wood every day.

I feel like my situation is just straight PFS without any other disorders on top of it.

Because I've always had this issue of brain fog/ general fatigue after masturbating, I wouldn't be able to tell you whether masturbating every 4/5 days will set you back.

What I can tell you, however, is that masturbation does increase prolactin, which subsequently decreases dopamine. It's likely that, by decreasing your dopamine/ increasing your prolactin, you are screwing yourself over.

[Cdsnuts]

I’m not sure if it sets me back if I fap every 4th or 5th day.

If so then I need some kind of new strategy to deal with it. It’s not even real strong libido but I just feel compelled to act on it when it’s there. I don’t go to any adult websites, but still. Not sure how detrimental that is or if that’s like the one missing piece that will make my progress a lot faster.

No fap is there for a reason. Look up sexual transmutation. It makes a huge difference. You should be going much longer then that before you cave in your condition. Ejaculating while in a pfs state is extremely draining on the system.

For what it's worth, I highly doubt covid has anything to do with this. You're in a downswing man. If you're doing this 100%, what experiencing is supposed to be happening. If you're cutting corners then it could be something else. That's why i repeat myself like a broken record because it makes THAT much of a difference.

[LetsGo]

No fap is there for a reason. Look up sexual transmutation. It makes a huge difference. You should be going much longer then that before you cave in your condition. Ejaculating while in a pfs state is extremely draining on the system.

For what it's worth, I highly doubt covid has anything to do with this. You're in a downswing man. If you're doing this 100%, what experiencing is supposed to be happening. If you're cutting corners then it could be something else. That's why i repeat myself like a broken record because it makes THAT much of a difference.

Thanks, I’m making NoFap a top priority now. Hopefully it will get easier when I pass the 10 day mark or something.

When I say Covid had an impact, I mean that my gym shut down due to Covid in March 2020 until September 2020, and then there was also a high infection rate in my area from December to February 2021. So in the last year I was only working out from October to November 2020, and April 2021.

That obviously had a huge negative impact on my progress and I know there were ways to work out without a gym, but I didn’t replicate a proper workout from my small apartment. That’s why Covid affected my progress - I never actually got Covid myself.

So I was in effect cutting corners big time, for a long time due to my gym being closed or me not feeling safe to go to the gym, but I’m hitting the gym hard now and will keep going with it. Just to be clear I fully knew that not going to the gym meant no progress so I’m not surprised about that part.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks, I’m making NoFap a top priority now. Hopefully it will get easier when I pass the 10 day mark or something.

When I say Covid had an impact, I mean that my gym shut down due to Covid in March 2020 until September 2020, and then there was also a high infection rate in my area from December to February 2021. So in the last year I was only working out from October to November 2020, and April 2021.

That obviously had a huge negative impact on my progress and I know there were ways to work out without a gym, but I didn’t replicate a proper workout from my small apartment. That’s why Covid affected my progress - I never actually got Covid myself.

So I was in effect cutting corners big time, for a long time due to my gym being closed or me not feeling safe to go to the gym, but I’m hitting the gym hard now and will keep going with it. Just to be clear I fully knew that not going to the gym meant no progress so I’m not surprised about that part.

It doesn't necessarily mean no progress, just SLOW progress instead. You could have always done calisthenics at a park or even in your house.

And it doesn't necessarily mean you won't get gains. Have you ever tried body weight squats? They are a phenomenal workout in and of itself. Plenty you can do without access to a gym.

[LetsGo]

Quick update: I seem to have more sensitivity than I’ve ever had since getting PFS in 2012. It’s not pre-fin, but to be honest, I don’t even really remember what that felt like. It’s very weird to be able to feel any sexual pleasure again (obviously this is a good thing.)

Also this morning I got probably 66% strength morning wood, although it rapidly went away after I woke up. Still way better than the normal 33% or 50% morning wood.

[MungYarlon]

Quick update: I seem to have more sensitivity than I’ve ever had since getting PFS in 2012. It’s not pre-fin, but to be honest, I don’t even really remember what that felt like. It’s very weird to be able to feel any sexual pleasure again (obviously this is a good thing.)

Also this morning I got probably 66% strength morning wood, although it rapidly went away after I woke up. Still way better than the normal 33% or 50% morning wood.

On your second point I've noticed that as well. Not sure if you've noticed this, but I don't really have the urge to go to the toilet in the morning for a piss, like I did before this. I reckon the two are connected.

[LetsGo]

I woke up this morning with very strong morning wood, and my libido is very high. And unlike with many previous upswings, I have a solid amount of sensitivity.

I’m thinking about doing a cycle of the Super R-Andro now; maybe it will have a good effect during my upswing.

[Cdsnuts]

I woke up this morning with very strong morning wood, and my libido is very high. And unlike with many previous upswings, I have a solid amount of sensitivity.

I’m thinking about doing a cycle of the Super R-Andro now; maybe it will have a good effect during my upswing.

How long has it been since your last cycle?

[LetsGo]

How long has it been since your last cycle?

Somewhere around 9 - 12 months.

[Cdsnuts]

Somewhere around 9 - 12 months.

Oh wow. Okay, so you're definitely due

[LetsGo]

This is probably my longest upswing ever. It feels like my libido is close to pre-fin, and my sensitivity is way up. Big morning wood every day.

My last upswing was like a month ago. They seem to be getting more frequent and stronger now. Let’s keep it going!

[Cdsnuts]

This is probably my longest upswing ever. It feels like my libido is close to pre-fin, and my sensitivity is way up. Big morning wood every day.

My last upswing was like a month ago. They seem to be getting more frequent and stronger now. Let’s keep it going!

Par for the course.

You're almost there.......

Keep it rolling

[Michael]

Amazing bro ! Lets get it

[LetsGo]

Par for the course.

You're almost there.......

Keep it rolling

It’s exciting :)

Two days ago I felt a lot like pre-fin, or close to it. I think there’s a realistic chance that I’ll fully recover sometime this year, but however long it takes is however long it takes. I’ll just keep it rolling. :cool:

[Cdsnuts]

It’s exciting :)

Two days ago I felt a lot like pre-fin, or close to it. I think there’s a realistic chance that I’ll fully recover sometime this year, but however long it takes is however long it takes. I’ll just keep it rolling. :cool:

Of course it's exciting! It's what you've been working for this whole, grueling time! Revel in it! It just keeps getting better and better. There will be times when you think you are fully recovered....or you'll consider yourself fully recovered, and then, BAM......new level of health YOU'RE NEVER FELT BEFORE....

Keeping going man.

Edit: It's like summiting Mount Everest and finally getting to the top. EXCEPT......you get to stay there!

[LetsGo]

So, my upswing ended shortly after my last post, which was fine and to be expected. I’m still at a higher baseline, which is how things are supposed to go.

I think the 6 - 7 days per week of lifting or HIIT are making the biggest difference. Being strict about that is crucial.

I’m going to move back to NYC in September 2021 for sure. My lease is up at the end of August, and I will have 51 days of leave (almost 3 months) accumulated but I can only cash out 30 days. So I’m going to use roughly a month of leave in these next three months, to sell my car when it gets closer to time to leave, find a new apartment in NYC, etc. I have plenty of reserves to support myself so I’m not worried. And I have avenues to earn money again if my business did flop, so I’ll be fine - just have to make the jump. I do feel some sense of dread about it, but I know I have to do it. My boss will retire soon and I’d be up for his job, with a 25% raise, but the work is far below my ability and potential, and I need to move back to the city. If things go even moderately well I’ll be making double what my boss makes, and I deserve to be successful.

I’m glad that my therapist really supports me in doing the whole protocol thing. And he’s in my corner about moving back to the city, he helps keep me on task with all of the things I have to do.

Sometime in the next few weeks I might have another upswing; we’ll see. It will happen on its own pace.

[LetsGo]

I think I’m in a downswing now.

[Cdsnuts]

So, my upswing ended shortly after my last post, which was fine and to be expected. I’m still at a higher baseline, which is how things are supposed to go.

I think the 6 - 7 days per week of lifting or HIIT are making the biggest difference. Being strict about that is crucial.

I’m going to move back to NYC in September 2021 for sure. My lease is up at the end of August, and I will have 51 days of leave (almost 3 months) accumulated but I can only cash out 30 days. So I’m going to use roughly a month of leave in these next three months, to sell my car when it gets closer to time to leave, find a new apartment in NYC, etc. I have plenty of reserves to support myself so I’m not worried. And I have avenues to earn money again if my business did flop, so I’ll be fine - just have to make the jump. I do feel some sense of dread about it, but I know I have to do it. My boss will retire soon and I’d be up for his job, with a 25% raise, but the work is far below my ability and potential, and I need to move back to the city. If things go even moderately well I’ll be making double what my boss makes, and I deserve to be successful.

I’m glad that my therapist really supports me in doing the whole protocol thing. And he’s in my corner about moving back to the city, he helps keep me on task with all of the things I have to do.

Sometime in the next few weeks I might have another upswing; we’ll see. It will happen on its own pace.

I will say one thing that I notice about you. You know your worth. That's so important but alot of guys sell themselves short. I can just tell by the way you talk about business and money. That's how you HAVE to be, to be successful, imo.

Nothing sucks more then having a really good upswing, only to go back into a downswing. But, that's just the way it works.

You got this.

- - - Updated - - -


I think I’m in a downswing now.

Buckle up, ride it out.

[LetsGo]

I will say one thing that I notice about you. You know your worth. That's so important but alot of guys sell themselves short. I can just tell by the way you talk about business and money. That's how you HAVE to be, to be successful, imo.

Nothing sucks more then having a really good upswing, only to go back into a downswing. But, that's just the way it works.

You got this.

- - - Updated - - -



Buckle up, ride it out.

Thank you. I'm making things happen, and I feel very confident about it all. It also feels good to have a backup plan in place as well.

I’ve grown a lot in the last 4 years, and especially the last 2 years that I’ve been recovering from PFS. Four years ago I would literally lay awake worrying about nuclear war, getting randomly hit by other cars and other things I can’t control. The fear was out of control and there’s no way I could have possibly started the business without growing and getting confidence. And improving my hormones; I think that’s a big part of it. I also had to internalize that confidence is not narcissim.

I also heard something that seemed to ring true for me. There’s this idea that you have a mental set point of what you think you’re worth, and if you’re below that you will hustle to get where you think you deserve to be. And then you’ll stop when you reach that point and stay where you are. You’ll stop looking for better opportunities, or even ignore opportunities that, subconsciously, seem are “too good” for you.


I feel like I’m starting to pull out of the downswing a little bit, and soon I should be back in mediumswing territory. Or whatever. We keep going and my body will do whatever it wants to do.

I’m still relieved and glad that my ability to feel sexual pleasure seems to be permanently higher, even in a downswing, because that was one of my worst symptoms. It’s at least 20%, up from literally ZERO for so many years.

When I did my HIIT in the park on Wednesday, two sets of strangers cheered for me at different times, and I felt really good. One of them said “Yeah man, get that money!”

[Cdsnuts]

Thank you. I'm making things happen, and I feel very confident about it all. It also feels good to have a backup plan in place as well.

I’ve grown a lot in the last 4 years, and especially the last 2 years that I’ve been recovering from PFS. Four years ago I would literally lay awake worrying about nuclear war, getting randomly hit by other cars and other things I can’t control. The fear was out of control and there’s no way I could have possibly started the business without growing and getting confidence. And improving my hormones; I think that’s a big part of it. I also had to internalize that confidence is not narcissim.

I also heard something that seemed to ring true for me. There’s this idea that you have a mental set point of what you think you’re worth, and if you’re below that you will hustle to get where you think you deserve to be. And then you’ll stop when you reach that point and stay where you are. You’ll stop looking for better opportunities, or even ignore opportunities that, subconsciously, seem are “too good” for you.


I feel like I’m starting to pull out of the downswing a little bit, and soon I should be back in mediumswing territory. Or whatever. We keep going and my body will do whatever it wants to do.

I’m still relieved and glad that my ability to feel sexual pleasure seems to be permanently higher, even in a downswing, because that was one of my worst symptoms. It’s at least 20%, up from literally ZERO for so many years.

When I did my HIIT in the park on Wednesday, two sets of strangers cheered for me at different times, and I felt really good. One of them said “Yeah man, get that money!”

The confidence comes through in the writing. And no, it is certainly not narcism.

Good weather for sprints in the NE.

[LetsGo]

I’m going through a significant downswing now. I ate a small pack of Starburst last week and I’m not sure if that triggered it; I also had gluten-free soy sauce while I was on a date on Saturday. A few weeks ago I visited my mom and ended up having some chewing gum, and some pre-packaged food like gluten free waffles, and I’m not sure if that derailed me.

On Friday and Saturday I managed to stay asleep much longer than normal, and I got 9 hours and then 11 hours the next day. This is potentially a good sign because i can hardly remember being able to sleep that many hours in a row, at least on a back to back day basis.

That was followed by days of 5 hours (foolishly listened to music at night which took me out of sleep mode,) and then 5 hours again last night (was too amped up,) so I’m exhausted, as usual. It’ll be nice to be able to sleep until 9 or 10 AM and just work later, unless I need to speak with a client earlier or something.

Shortly after my last post, I also hit a rough patch emotionally for several days, and that may have also caused the downswing. I ended up not going to the gym for 3 or 4 days last week because of how anxious and distraught I was.

Last week I eased back into the gym after the skipped days and I only did 10 sets instead of 15, because I really wanted to leave the entire time. Better than nothing. I also did HIIT on Saturday and Monday.

I’m approaching Week 4 of the prohormone cycle and I don’t know if I should stop at week 5 or 6, if I’m getting suppressed or not.

[Cdsnuts]

I’m going through a significant downswing now. I ate a small pack of Starburst last week and I’m not sure if that triggered it; I also had gluten-free soy sauce while I was on a date on Saturday. A few weeks ago I visited my mom and ended up having some chewing gum, and some pre-packaged food like gluten free waffles, and I’m not sure if that derailed me.

On Friday and Saturday I managed to stay asleep much longer than normal, and I got 9 hours and then 11 hours the next day. This is potentially a good sign because i can hardly remember being able to sleep that many hours in a row, at least on a back to back day basis.

That was followed by days of 5 hours (foolishly listened to music at night which took me out of sleep mode,) and then 5 hours again last night (was too amped up,) so I’m exhausted, as usual. It’ll be nice to be able to sleep until 9 or 10 AM and just work later, unless I need to speak with a client earlier or something.

Shortly after my last post, I also hit a rough patch emotionally for several days, and that may have also caused the downswing. I ended up not going to the gym for 3 or 4 days last week because of how anxious and distraught I was.

Last week I eased back into the gym after the skipped days and I only did 10 sets instead of 15, because I really wanted to leave the entire time. Better than nothing. I also did HIIT on Saturday and Monday.

I’m approaching Week 4 of the prohormone cycle and I don’t know if I should stop at week 5 or 6, if I’m getting suppressed or not.

There is no ryhm or reason for downswings other then your bodies natural cleansing cycles. You can't really bring them on or turn them off. They happen. Constantly up and down with more ups and less downs as you progress. Dont' beat yourself up over it.

The only thing you can do is ride it out and stick to the protocol STRONGER then ever until it passes.

[LetsGo]

There is no ryhm or reason for downswings other then your bodies natural cleansing cycles. You can't really bring them on or turn them off. They happen. Constantly up and down with more ups and less downs as you progress. Dont' beat yourself up over it.

The only thing you can do is ride it out and stick to the protocol STRONGER then ever until it passes.

Thanks, I am hitting my workouts harder this week. The body does what it wants to do, but in downswings I usually second-guess everything.

Earlier I felt like I was getting close because I had two upswings (1 week each) within 4 weeks and now it’s like it backed off and I have a longer downswing. But the recent upswings have been the best ones of all.

[LetsGo]

I might have broken my toe; I had to rush to answer a phone call, and when I moved quickly, I slammed my toe very hard into a dumbbell that I’d carelessly left on the floor. Minutes later, it still hurt and my sock was bloody where I’d hit the dumbbell. The nail is still intact, thankfully. It hurt to walk, but I still made it to the gym for back day. (3/4 mile walk to the gym.) The walk back hurt less.

I’m not going to sprint today / Saturday if it still hurts, and we’ll see about Sunday. If it’s broken I have to wait for it to heal up for a bit.

My legs are a little sore from a good leg workout, which is nice. Need to up the intensity for the other lifts as well. Also finally reaching 5 days of nofap 🙄 which is my 2021 record, sadly. Going to try for at least 60, if not 90+, if possible.

They don’t do much for a minorly broken toe like this may be, so I’m fine with a band aid. Hopefully in a few days it won’t hurt, and then I can safely sprint maybe next weekend... I don’t care about the pain, but I don’t want to lose the nail or cause a minor break not to heal properly if I pushed myself and did sprints too soon. OTOH, I’m not waiting 6 weeks to sprint if I feel okay after just a few days.

My business is picking up and I did get paid. Feels good. Hustling this weekend, especially since it hurts to walk.

[Turnover25]

I might have broken my toe; I had to rush to answer a phone call, and when I moved quickly, I slammed my toe very hard into a dumbbell that I’d carelessly left on the floor. Minutes later, it still hurt and my sock was bloody where I’d hit the dumbbell. The nail is still intact, thankfully. It hurt to walk, but I still made it to the gym for back day. (3/4 mile walk to the gym.) The walk back hurt less.

I’m not going to sprint today / Saturday if it still hurts, and we’ll see about Sunday. If it’s broken I have to wait for it to heal up for a bit.

My legs are a little sore from a good leg workout, which is nice. Need to up the intensity for the other lifts as well. Also finally reaching 5 days of nofap 🙄 which is my 2021 record, sadly. Going to try for at least 60, if not 90+, if possible.

They don’t do much for a minorly broken toe like this may be, so I’m fine with a band aid. Hopefully in a few days it won’t hurt, and then I can safely sprint maybe next weekend... I don’t care about the pain, but I don’t want to lose the nail or cause a minor break not to heal properly if I pushed myself and did sprints too soon. OTOH, I’m not waiting 6 weeks to sprint if I feel okay after just a few days.

My business is picking up and I did get paid. Feels good. Hustling this weekend, especially since it hurts to walk.

I feel you on the broken toe. If it still hurts by sprint time, simply slam your other toes into bricks to take the pain away from the broken one. Science.

Also if 5 days of nofap is an impressive feat, you’re WAY ahead of the game. I swear I haven’t felt the need to touch my dick in like 2 months, and I’ve considered myself doing “well” lately.

You’re doing fine my friend. Tough it the fuck out and get it done.

[LetsGo]

I feel you on the broken toe. If it still hurts by sprint time, simply slam your other toes into bricks to take the pain away from the broken one. Science.

Also if 5 days of nofap is an impressive feat, you’re WAY ahead of the game. I swear I haven’t felt the need to touch my dick in like 2 months, and I’ve considered myself doing “well” lately.

You’re doing fine my friend. Tough it the fuck out and get it done.

Haha, well I can’t argue with science!

Thanks for the encouragement :) In the worst depths of my PFS, I’d feel slightly horny every 10 - 14 days, so my libido never really went away fully. Just 90% or so. I’ve made a lot of progress, and sometimes I forget how far I’ve come until someone points it out.

My toe is feeling somewhat improved, but I can’t run on it this weekend. I’m sure it’s slightly broken, so I’ll have to wait at least until I can walk without any pain.

During upswings earlier this year, I felt somewhat pre-fin libido (horny every day, even if I fapped the day before). I just want to stack some more upswings together and get to the damn finish line, but the upswings aren’t coming that rapidly.

[MungYarlon]

Haha, well I can’t argue with science!

Thanks for the encouragement :) In the worst depths of my PFS, I’d feel slightly horny every 10 - 14 days, so my libido never really went away fully. Just 90% or so. I’ve made a lot of progress, and sometimes I forget how far I’ve come until someone points it out.

My toe is feeling somewhat improved, but I can’t run on it this weekend. I’m sure it’s slightly broken, so I’ll have to wait at least until I can walk without any pain.

During upswings earlier this year, I felt somewhat pre-fin libido (horny every day, even if I fapped the day before). I just want to stack some more upswings together and get to the damn finish line, but the upswings aren’t coming that rapidly.

The average man, apparently, can find his healthy libido levels by taking his age, and divide that by 5. Whatever you get is the amount of days it is normal to go without feeling the need to release. You're in your mid 30s I'm pretty sure, so it would be about 6 days for you.

Now, if you feel the need to release before that, then I feel you are definitely doing well. Just my 2 cents.

[LetsGo]

The average man, apparently, can find his healthy libido levels by taking his age, and divide that by 5. Whatever you get is the amount of days it is normal to go without feeling the need to release. You're in your mid 30s I'm pretty sure, so it would be about 6 days for you.

Now, if you feel the need to release before that, then I feel you are definitely doing well. Just my 2 cents.

Normal and healthy libido varies enormously from person to person. I’m not sure if that’s average or not, but it’s definitely not average or normal for me. Pre-fin, and during upswings, I am horny 7 days per week just as I was pre-fin, and that’s how I’ll be when I’m fully recovered. If I only felt horny every 6 days, that would be extremely abnormal and unhealthy for me personally.

[Cdsnuts]

Normal and healthy libido varies enormously from person to person. I’m not sure if that’s average or not, but it’s definitely not average or normal for me. Pre-fin, and during upswings, I am horny 7 days per week just as I was pre-fin, and that’s how I’ll be when I’m fully recovered. If I only felt horny every 6 days, that would be extremely abnormal and unhealthy for me personally.

You should be. If you're optimized anyway.

There are slight variations in this but this is the male drive, so it's the core of life. Typically healthy men will ALWAYS want sex. I do. I go usually daily....sexually.

It still cracks me up to hear "come and get it Mr. Male optimization." It actually turns her on.......

[LetsGo]

I might be starting to get another upswing. My sensitivity suddenly jumped way up, higher than it’s been during PFS. Way higher.

I stopped the prohormone cycle after just four weeks because I felt like I was in a slump and wanted to restart the herbal rotation, and within a few days of that it seemed like I’d made significant gains. Maybe the prohormones were helping in the background even though I didn’t “feel” anything from them, but I’m not sure. This is definitely at least a medium-swing.

[Cdsnuts]

I might be starting to get another upswing. My sensitivity suddenly jumped way up, higher than it’s been during PFS. Way higher.

I stopped the prohormone cycle after just four weeks because I felt like I was in a slump and wanted to restart the herbal rotation, and within a few days of that it seemed like I’d made significant gains. Maybe the prohormones were helping in the background even though I didn’t “feel” anything from them, but I’m not sure. This is definitely at least a medium-swing.

NOT maybe. The ARE working in the background. One of the main reasons we cycle. And one of the reasons for a shorter recovery time.

You will make gains after each cycle. Some gains will be neurological, some physical, etc., but you will make gains after every cycle whether you feel it or not. Then after a certain amount of cycles, it just "clicks."

You'll feel it. Probably responsible for what you're feeling now.

Keep doing what you're supposed to be doing and you'll keep getting what you're getting.

[LetsGo]

I’m doing pretty well symptoms-wise, kind of in between an upswing and downswing, but at a higher baseline than usual.

I got vaccinated for Hepatitis A and HPV, and I’ll need more shots later this year to complete that. It kind of knocked me on my ass for two days since I got both first doses at the same time. But I don’t want to get Hep A when traveling, or HPV as my personal life ramps up.

I’m starting to pack up my apartment - all the stuff I haven’t touched in years - all the clutter. I packed up six small boxes and there’s many more to go. There’s also some stuff I can donate or discard before I sell my car. I’ll get my car detailed and then start advertising it soon (I can’t have a car in NYC because of parking issues,) and look for my next apartment.

I also need to pull the trigger on telling my landlord and boss I’m leaving at the end of August. I already unofficially told my boss, but I need to send it officially.

I sent out 80 letters to potential clients, and ordered 500 more units of my stationary. When I sent the previous 20 in March, I got one client a few weeks later, so if I can get 1 or 2 more from those 80 letters I will be elated. It’ll mean I have my mechanism for getting as much business as I can handle (which means scaling up in 2022.) I don’t expect a hit rate of 5%, but if it’s 2% that will be amazing since I can send out like 1,000 each month and start making more money than I ever thought I’d make.

Anyway, I’ve also been getting morning wood regularly for the last week or so, and my libido is moderate about every two to three days. The next prohormone cycle will be in late July, one month after my one month cycle.

[Cdsnuts]

I’m doing pretty well symptoms-wise, kind of in between an upswing and downswing, but at a higher baseline than usual.

I got vaccinated for Hepatitis A and HPV, and I’ll need more shots later this year to complete that. It kind of knocked me on my ass for two days since I got both first doses at the same time. But I don’t want to get Hep A when traveling, or HPV as my personal life ramps up.

I’m starting to pack up my apartment - all the stuff I haven’t touched in years - all the clutter. I packed up six small boxes and there’s many more to go. There’s also some stuff I can donate or discard before I sell my car. I’ll get my car detailed and then start advertising it soon (I can’t have a car in NYC because of parking issues,) and look for my next apartment.

I also need to pull the trigger on telling my landlord and boss I’m leaving at the end of August. I already unofficially told my boss, but I need to send it officially.

I sent out 80 letters to potential clients, and ordered 500 more units of my stationary. When I sent the previous 20 in March, I got one client a few weeks later, so if I can get 1 or 2 more from those 80 letters I will be elated. It’ll mean I have my mechanism for getting as much business as I can handle (which means scaling up in 2022.) I don’t expect a hit rate of 5%, but if it’s 2% that will be amazing since I can send out like 1,000 each month and start making more money than I ever thought I’d make.

Anyway, I’ve also been getting morning wood regularly for the last week or so, and my libido is moderate about every two to three days. The next prohormone cycle will be in late July, one month after my one month cycle.

Totally OT, but a 2% response in direct mail is good these days. That's how I market my business as well (My real business....you know, the one that pays the bills)

[LetsGo]

Totally OT, but a 2% response in direct mail is good these days. That's how I market my business as well (My real business....you know, the one that pays the bills)

Thanks, it looks like I’m getting an even higher response rate than I thought - about 5% or so respond to me, but I can’t take calls at my day job and 100% of the time I lose those potential clients when I call them back after work. (My day job is costing me money, and I should think of it in those terms.) So I’m only getting hired by the leads who email me.

Hearing that 2% is normal is great, I feel like I’m hitting it out of the park! Also, this is supposed to be a very dark and hard time for my practice area, so when things pick up it’s going to be crazy and I could end up hiring people. I’m so excited, but I have to take it one step at a time and focus on these early steps first.

It’s hard juggling this with a day job, but tomorrow I’m sending in the email about my last day, in mid-august, and fortunately my boss is letting me use my 3 months of vacation after my last day, so I will get some extra money from that.

Isn’t direct mail so much better than Google Ads? It felt like a casino, where I’d get floods off leads and then it would randomly stop working for a full month.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks, it looks like I’m getting an even higher response rate than I thought - about 5% or so respond to me, but I can’t take calls at my day job and 100% of the time I lose those potential clients when I call them back after work. (My day job is costing me money, and I should think of it in those terms.) So I’m only getting hired by the leads who email me.

Hearing that 2% is normal is great, I feel like I’m hitting it out of the park! Also, this is supposed to be a very dark and hard time for my practice area, so when things pick up it’s going to be crazy and I could end up hiring people. I’m so excited, but I have to take it one step at a time and focus on these early steps first.

It’s hard juggling this with a day job, but tomorrow I’m sending in the email about my last day, in mid-august, and fortunately my boss is letting me use my 3 months of vacation after my last day, so I will get some extra money from that.

Isn’t direct mail so much better than Google Ads? It felt like a casino, where I’d get floods off leads and then it would randomly stop working for a full month.

Never used google ads. But in the insurance business, it's the bread and butter of your clients. (Direct Mail)

[LetsGo]

So it’s been a little while since my last post, and it’s time for an update. This is the last week of my current job, and it can’t come soon enough. My boss was surprised that I wanted to leave and kept asking me if I was sure, etc but I felt no regret handing him the official resignation letter that is required for me to get my ~12 weeks of accrued vacation cashed out slowly over the next 12 weeks.

I am consumed with the apartment search and I’ll end up probably selling my car to a dealership (ugh) instead of privately but I will shop around over the phone, etc. I have some good apartment candidates but it’s harder coordinating that from +100 miles away, but I think it should be nailed down this weekend (fingers crossed.) And then it shouldn’t take too long to sell the car, hire movers, etc.

On August 1st I started a Super R Andro cycle that will last throughout August. Then I will go again through all of October, month off again, then December.

The gains I’ve made from the last cycle seem pretty real and have stuck with me, so it will be fun to see what gains I make from this cycle. I still have an entire untouched bottle for once this one runs out, and then I’m not sure if I’ll need another bottle after that or not. I definitely don’t intend to use the prohormones anymore once I’m at 100%. (Not sure how healthy they would be to use for the super long term.)

I have been getting horrible sleep most nights (4 to 5 hours) as I juggle the day job with my law firm. I stopped advertising weeks ago and still get clients trickling in so I am busy. Once I have everything settled and I have my new place, I will dial up the ads again and get cracking on that. Last night I got 8 hours of sleep and still felt exhausted in the morning; it will take time to get well-rested again. That will only help me recover better and faster, the lack of sleep is working against me and slowing things down, although I do feel like I could fully recover either way, it’s just miserable and unhealthy to not get enough sleep.

The area where I’m looking at living (I don’t want to say where so please don’t ask,) has a perfect spot nearby for sprinting, good gyms, and it’s close to a shared office type of setup where I could rent a super small office for meeting clients and working outside of my apartment. Also lots of nice restaurants and subway stations. So I’m excited and right now I’m just focusing on getting a suitable apartment - last weekend I checked out 5 apartments and realized which area I really wanted to live in, so that’s where I’m focusing more on now.

Symptoms wise, my libido is good, it is active most days. Sensitivity is increased but climax quality is still pretty bad (but not numb.) It sometimes feels like there’s some connection that my brain is trying to make at climax, and it doesn’t quite happen. Like maybe 10% - it feels like there’s almost some kind of a misfire. Which is better than how it traditionally has been during PFS, which is no feelings of connection or anything like that, it just was what it was, which was nothing. I’m thinking that once I am settled in, things will improve in many areas and I’m on the right track.

[Cdsnuts]

So it’s been a little while since my last post, and it’s time for an update. This is the last week of my current job, and it can’t come soon enough. My boss was surprised that I wanted to leave and kept asking me if I was sure, etc but I felt no regret handing him the official resignation letter that is required for me to get my ~12 weeks of accrued vacation cashed out slowly over the next 12 weeks.

I am consumed with the apartment search and I’ll end up probably selling my car to a dealership (ugh) instead of privately but I will shop around over the phone, etc. I have some good apartment candidates but it’s harder coordinating that from +100 miles away, but I think it should be nailed down this weekend (fingers crossed.) And then it shouldn’t take too long to sell the car, hire movers, etc.

On August 1st I started a Super R Andro cycle that will last throughout August. Then I will go again through all of October, month off again, then December.

The gains I’ve made from the last cycle seem pretty real and have stuck with me, so it will be fun to see what gains I make from this cycle. I still have an entire untouched bottle for once this one runs out, and then I’m not sure if I’ll need another bottle after that or not. I definitely don’t intend to use the prohormones anymore once I’m at 100%. (Not sure how healthy they would be to use for the super long term.)

I have been getting horrible sleep most nights (4 to 5 hours) as I juggle the day job with my law firm. I stopped advertising weeks ago and still get clients trickling in so I am busy. Once I have everything settled and I have my new place, I will dial up the ads again and get cracking on that. Last night I got 8 hours of sleep and still felt exhausted in the morning; it will take time to get well-rested again. That will only help me recover better and faster, the lack of sleep is working against me and slowing things down, although I do feel like I could fully recover either way, it’s just miserable and unhealthy to not get enough sleep.

The area where I’m looking at living (I don’t want to say where so please don’t ask,) has a perfect spot nearby for sprinting, good gyms, and it’s close to a shared office type of setup where I could rent a super small office for meeting clients and working outside of my apartment. Also lots of nice restaurants and subway stations. So I’m excited and right now I’m just focusing on getting a suitable apartment - last weekend I checked out 5 apartments and realized which area I really wanted to live in, so that’s where I’m focusing more on now.

Symptoms wise, my libido is good, it is active most days. Sensitivity is increased but climax quality is still pretty bad (but not numb.) It sometimes feels like there’s some connection that my brain is trying to make at climax, and it doesn’t quite happen. Like maybe 10% - it feels like there’s almost some kind of a misfire. Which is better than how it traditionally has been during PFS, which is no feelings of connection or anything like that, it just was what it was, which was nothing. I’m thinking that once I am settled in, things will improve in many areas and I’m on the right track.

You certainly are. Good for you man! Always good to hear positive updates.

[LetsGo]

I moved to NYC.

My apartment is crowded with boxes of stuff that I need to unpack, organize, donate, and throw away. Tomorrow I will hopefully sell my car, the parking is as bad as I knew it would be and I can’t waste hours looking for a spot just to have it longer to try to sell it privately.

I feel unbelievably lonely and my anxiety is very high. I can only do a few things each day because I spend so much time meditating and breathing to try to keep this under control. I don’t regret coming down here. But I’m incredibly lonely. Meeting some friends on Saturday and I cannot wait…

I just hope it’s not too late for me to have a good life. I’m so sick with worry. I have to get internet and my apartment set up and then do my business activities. But man, I wish I could get some promising dates.

I’m really craving interaction but most of my friends are busy.

[Jado]

I moved to NYC.

My apartment is crowded with boxes of stuff that I need to unpack, organize, donate, and throw away. Tomorrow I will hopefully sell my car, the parking is as bad as I knew it would be and I can’t waste hours looking for a spot just to have it longer to try to sell it privately.

I feel unbelievably lonely and my anxiety is very high. I can only do a few things each day because I spend so much time meditating and breathing to try to keep this under control. I don’t regret coming down here. But I’m incredibly lonely. Meeting some friends on Saturday and I cannot wait…

I just hope it’s not too late for me to have a good life. I’m so sick with worry. I have to get internet and my apartment set up and then do my business activities. But man, I wish I could get some promising dates.

I’m really craving interaction but most of my friends are busy.

Man, I feel similar. I just moved from CA to AZ - missing friends/family. Also, in a downswing and anxiety has been through the roof. I'm sure the change (moving) isn't making it any easier. Hang in there, it will get better.

[LetsGo]

Man, I feel similar. I just moved from CA to AZ - missing friends/family. Also, in a downswing and anxiety has been through the roof. I'm sure the change (moving) isn't making it any easier. Hang in there, it will get better.

Thank you. Ironically my friends are here, so I should feel less lonely.

I am meeting some friends on Saturday and I can’t wait to see them.

I used to be able to chat with some friends on demand when feeling anxious but not anymore, so I don’t have the outlet I crave. It is so hard to regulate my anxiety, even though it is less than it used to be.

I have not worked out at all in over two months so obviously I am in a huge downswing. I need to sell my car tomorrow, set up my internet, get my business phone set up, unpack my core essential items, start throwing away / donating what I will never need, cancel my old gym, join a new gym, start going to the gym, set up my air conditioning bracket which requires a drill, set up my air conditioner (using the bracket so that it wouldn’t literally kill someone if the window opened,) start sprinting again, get a new virtual office for my business, get new stationary with new address, sign up for digital payment receipts, sign up for digital contract signature software, send out 300 letters, etc, etc. It’s a lot. I need to just do it one step at a time.

When things are completed I should have a clean and neat apartment, cool with AC in my bedroom, fans in my other room. Work station set up. Cooking stuff set up. No boxes in my way, no clutter.

Calls coming in a few per day. ~3 paying clients per week. ~$6,000 per week. PFS should improve. Go on dates. Meet someone good. Pursue a relationship. Enjoy the upswings with her and grow emotionally close. Hang out with friends and enjoy the city. That is what I want.

Instead I am surrounded by boxes with a narrow path in my apartment, no internet, business not set up at all, internet not set up yet, car getting tickets and costing me parking fees, anxious, ruminating, feeling overwhelmed, feeling lonely, worried I’m too old, etc.

So I know what I have to do but I have to find strength to do it. It will probably end up being only a few pieces of progress each day. And then over a few weeks I am up and running, whereas someone stronger would be all set up by now. But I just need to do what I need to do.

[Jado]

Thank you. Ironically my friends are here, so I should feel less lonely.

I am meeting some friends on Saturday and I can’t wait to see them.

I used to be able to chat with some friends on demand when feeling anxious but not anymore, so I don’t have the outlet I crave. It is so hard to regulate my anxiety, even though it is less than it used to be.

I have not worked out at all in over two months so obviously I am in a huge downswing. I need to sell my car tomorrow, set up my internet, get my business phone set up, unpack my core essential items, start throwing away / donating what I will never need, cancel my old gym, join a new gym, start going to the gym, set up my air conditioning bracket which requires a drill, set up my air conditioner (using the bracket so that it wouldn’t literally kill someone if the window opened,) start sprinting again, get a new virtual office for my business, get new stationary with new address, sign up for digital payment receipts, sign up for digital contract signature software, send out 300 letters, etc, etc. It’s a lot. I need to just do it one step at a time.

When things are completed I should have a clean and neat apartment, cool with AC in my bedroom, fans in my other room. Work station set up. Cooking stuff set up. No boxes in my way, no clutter.

Calls coming in a few per day. ~3 paying clients per week. ~$6,000 per week. PFS should improve. Go on dates. Meet someone good. Pursue a relationship. Enjoy the upswings with her and grow emotionally close. Hang out with friends and enjoy the city. That is what I want.

Instead I am surrounded by boxes with a narrow path in my apartment, no internet, business not set up at all, internet not set up yet, car getting tickets and costing me parking fees, anxious, ruminating, feeling overwhelmed, feeling lonely, worried I’m too old, etc.

So I know what I have to do but I have to find strength to do it. It will probably end up being only a few pieces of progress each day. And then over a few weeks I am up and running, whereas someone stronger would be all set up by now. But I just need to do what I need to do.

Man, sounds like a ton. I totally understand. We moved in March, and I started working toward my masters in nursing. It seemed like as soon as I signed up this current downswing started. Now I have assignments due every week, in addition to all the other normal life stuff. Normally, I would be killing this program, and enjoying every min of it, but right now it feels like such a burden.
You're right on when you said, "take it one step at a time". The best thing to do is put one foot in front of the other, and just get one thing done at a time. Also, keep reminding yourself this downswing will pass - that's what I keep doing. If you need to chat pm me and maybe we can set up a time. Either way, just keep pushing.

[LetsGo]

]I’m really not doing well at all. I’m not even worrying about recovery right now, or money. I’m just not doing well. I should be excited but I’m overwhelmed with loneliness. I hope I can turn this around. I’m supposed to be seeing my friends on Saturday and I’m reaching out to so many old friends from 5 - 10 years ago.

[Jado]

]I’m really not doing well at all. I’m not even worrying about recovery right now, or money. I’m just not doing well. I should be excited but I’m overwhelmed with loneliness. I hope I can turn this around. I’m supposed to be seeing my friends on Saturday and I’m reaching out to so many old friends from 5 - 10 years ago.

It'll turn around. All downswings come to an end, keep that in the forefront of your mind.

[Ratchet_V2]

]I’m really not doing well at all. I’m not even worrying about recovery right now, or money. I’m just not doing well. I should be excited but I’m overwhelmed with loneliness. I hope I can turn this around. I’m supposed to be seeing my friends on Saturday and I’m reaching out to so many old friends from 5 - 10 years ago.

Hey man,

Go take a look at my thread. I think it was around March/Apr. I was seriously going through it, worse than ever before. Serious depression, probably would have been even if it wasn’t dealing w PFS. Now I feel great, the last two months have been better than ever, and things are only looking up. It will get better

Best,

Ratchet

[LetsGo]

Hey man,

Go take a look at my thread. I think it was around March/Apr. I was seriously going through it, worse than ever before. Serious depression, probably would have been even if it wasn’t dealing w PFS. Now I feel great, the last two months have been better than ever, and things are only looking up. It will get better

Best,

Ratchet

Thanks for the message. Yeah, I do feel better now.

I took my Rx for klonopin for a few days 0.25mg because of the extreme anxiety I felt when I moved to a new city and apartment, and starting my own business, after 4 years at a stable but bad job.

The klonopin knocked out my anxiety very fast, but also made me feel a bit suicidal. (!!!) I’m flushing that poison down the toilet. Suicidal thoughts is listed as a side effect of the drug. It also made me want to (and actually) desperately reach out to a bunch of friends and tell them all about my PFS thing just because I wanted to talk to someone about it.

I’m feeling better now that the klonopin is out of my system.

[LetsGo]

Altight, this first part is off-topic. If you’re bald, trim it close or shave it all off.

I ended up getting a hair transplant from one of the world’s top doctors (who does celebs, etc.) I had explained that I would never touch finasteride as I have lingering side effects from 9 years ago, and he believed me and said I should not take the drug ever again. I got 2,440 grafts and spent a massive amount of money for it. I am choosing at this time to not regret it, and when I got home I started feeling panicky hoping I hadn’t ruined my life or something, if it doesn’t work out.

However I do think it has a good shot at working out. I have a Norwood 6 except a bunch of hair in the front, so that I can comb and style it to look normal from the front, but it’s thinning. They transplanted mostly in the front hairline area (and drew me a new “mature” hairline which is actually also my childhood hairline,) with recessed temples. Then they also added a bunch to the middle, and a very very light dusting to the crown area. He transplanted as though I was already completely bald in the areas he was transplanting to, so that when I do lose the remaining natural hair it should look normal. Also it’s normal to have that hair in the front and then be very thin in the back.

I just hope that that is my final balding pattern and that I won’t get bald on the sides and then have a disconnect between my new hair and the hair that rings around the sides of my head.

If the transplant works well then I will look a lot better. If it ends up sucking, I could shave my head and rock the FUT scar or have it implanted with FUE hairs and just carry on as a shaved head guy. Or if I had to have a visible scar on the back of my head, oh well.

So that’s what I’m grappling with. I have to gently wet the transplanted areas each day and clean with baby shampoo (no scrubbling) until the 24th. Then more hair will grow, then I will get shock loss and lose lots of hair, then in month 3 or 4 I sould get regrowth. And month 12 sould be max regrowth. Hopefully I’ll be happy with these results and I won’t find myself chasing more nad more surgeries. If so then I will peace out and shave instead.


Other news, I have some dates lined up! And I need to hit the gym and sprints again.

[LetsGo]

Having big problems cancelling my old RetroFitness gym membership. The contract says you can write to the HQ, which then replied that only the original club can accept the cancellation. I’m going to call the club and see if I can cancel with them by certified letter, or if they’re really going to pull some bullshit and make me take a train all the way up there to hand them a letter in person (only to be told, probably, that the owner or manager is not there and therefore it doesn’t count.) If they keep giving me the run-around I’m going to contact the Attorney General’s office and/or file a notice of arbitration with them. It will cost them thousands of dollars and they would probably rather cancel the contract than go through with that. But it’s just an annoying pain to be charge $20/mo when it should be so much easier to cancel.

Also my old landlord is trying to pull some BS and illegally withhold part of my security deposit, so that’s fun.

Symptom-wise I am in a downswing. Need to wait a bit longer to restart my exercising because the sweat etc is not good for my wounds and I need to take it eas until September 25th.

[LetsGo]

My anxiety is really bad. I’m feeling very overwhelmed, full of regrets, and struggling badly.

Still having some suicidal ideation, which I can’t control. I only have my brother and a few friends I can talk to. If only I’d cancelled that stupid appointment I’d be so much better off physically and mentally. I feel like such a fuck-up.

[Turnover25]

My anxiety is really bad. I’m feeling very overwhelmed, full of regrets, and struggling badly.

Still having some suicidal ideation, which I can’t control. I only have my brother and a few friends I can talk to. If only I’d cancelled that stupid appointment I’d be so much better off physically and mentally. I feel like such a fuck-up.

Why do you regret it so much? Has it had a chance to work yet? It might work out in your favor

[TubZy]

Having big problems cancelling my old RetroFitness gym membership. The contract says you can write to the HQ, which then replied that only the original club can accept the cancellation. I’m going to call the club and see if I can cancel with them by certified letter, or if they’re really going to pull some bullshit and make me take a train all the way up there to hand them a letter in person (only to be told, probably, that the owner or manager is not there and therefore it doesn’t count.) If they keep giving me the run-around I’m going to contact the Attorney General’s office and/or file a notice of arbitration with them. It will cost them thousands of dollars and they would probably rather cancel the contract than go through with that. But it’s just an annoying pain to be charge $20/mo when it should be so much easier to cancel.

Also my old landlord is trying to pull some BS and illegally withhold part of my security deposit, so that’s fun.

Symptom-wise I am in a downswing. Need to wait a bit longer to restart my exercising because the sweat etc is not good for my wounds and I need to take it eas until September 25th.

I'm a retro member as well they are a pain to deal with.

[LetsGo]

Why do you regret it so much? Has it had a chance to work yet? It might work out in your favor

Part of it is that I’m a naturally high-anxiety person. I should have cancelled it the same reasons that I initially cancelled it back in March 2021; I never tried doing short haircut alternatives because I had never done that in my life and it seemed too unlike me. I was always afraid of not looking like myself anymore and I think that was what led me to take fin back in 2009, and what led me to get a hair transplant in 2021. So I feel like I haven’t grown as a person and that I’ve just made things more difficult for myself with this transplant.

I should’ve tried doing progressively shorter buzz cuts to get used to it, there was no need to rush into the transplant like I did.

The transplant could still work in my favor at least for awhile, but I’m now realizing that the amount of grafts that were put in won’t be enough, long-term. And I don’t really know how I’d feel about getting a second surgery, both financially, and cosmetically. There’s not going to be enough grafts to cover the bald spot in the back - ever. I thought that that wouldn’t bother me, and I still don’t feel self-conscious about it, but still. He did tell me going into it that I’d end up needing a second surgery, but for some reason I still pushed ahead. I underestimated the emotional toll this would take on me, all the stress and regret it would cause me.

Longer-term, especially if I need to do more prohormones, it’s going to look too thin in the front/middle, and the “shave your head” option will now be flawed because I'll have a surgical scar from ear to ear. I won’t know how it will look until it fully grows in, but as my remaining native hair goes, I’m not going to be able to do my normal hairstyle with just this transplant.

However, there is some promising news. According to a NY Times article from April 2021 (wish I’d read this when it was new,) there’s an FDA-approved drug that has worked on mice and pigs that removed scars without a trace. They’re expecting to start human trials later this year and if the early results come back showing that it works, some doctors will start doing it off-label in 2022. They’d cut out the scar, suture it closed, and inject this medication. If it works in humans, and we should hopefully find out in 2022, then that would be an option to allow me to shave my head or do any length buzz with no scar. This is kind of the holy grail option that I’m hoping for. Some people hope it’ll let them cut out, transplant, and regrow infinite hair but I don’t want to spend infinite money and have a million surgeries.

Another possibility is getting scalp micropigmentation dots over the scar so it blends in with a very short buzz (#0). If you do that, then you can’t shave it down bare skin or you’d have this strip of dots. Other people have the dots all over their scalp and the pictures I’ve seen seem realistic, but I would rather just be able to shave it completely or just have a #0.

I just can’t afford, mentally, to be worrying about this as I need to focus on my business. I just feel tremendous worry.

Also, I threw away the klonopin - it affects GABA receptors so it should have the same negative effects on PFS as alcohol does. I’m sure that that’s part of why in my PFS state, I felt even worse and had a massive downswing. But I feel so much suspense worrying about whether that new drug will work in humans - if so, then I should be in the clear. I will feel so relieved if I’ll have the option for a full head shave or a short buzz, with no scar… The suspense is killing me.

[LetsGo]

I hope that taking the benzos didn’t reset my progress at all, hopefully it just delayed things and I’m just in downswing. I’m hoping for significant progress in the back quarter of this year.

I also have to stop obsessing - OBSESSING - over the transplant and regret, etc. If I’d had any idea that it would affect me this way mentally, there’s no way I would have done it. I just hope that that anti-scar tech proves itself out and then when it’s time, I’ll be able to shave with no signs of any scars. But either way, I will get through this and it shouldn’t become this big or life-changing deal. I need to believe that.

Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with high anxiety? I feel like I need some encouragement as well.

[Mojo]

I hope that taking the benzos didn’t reset my progress at all, hopefully it just delayed things and I’m just in downswing. I’m hoping for significant progress in the back quarter of this year.

I also have to stop obsessing - OBSESSING - over the transplant and regret, etc. If I’d had any idea that it would affect me this way mentally, there’s no way I would have done it. I just hope that that anti-scar tech proves itself out and then when it’s time, I’ll be able to shave with no signs of any scars. But either way, I will get through this and it shouldn’t become this big or life-changing deal. I need to believe that.

Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with high anxiety? I feel like I need some encouragement as well.

Bro I feel you. It’s like I’m writing your posts. I obsess over every little thing and decision I’ve made in my life. For example this time I got a new car. Regretted it because I didn’t like the color. The regret ended up eating me up so much I had an expensive color wrapping done. My natural anxiety is so high and these regrets end up in obsessions that just linger and linger until it ramps up and explodes.

Or when I’m dating a new girl I can end up doubting and doubting whether she is the one so that I just blow it all up because the doubt and obsession is eating me up inside instead of giving it a fair shot.

When I started losing my hair the obsession of fixing it near ruined me mentally. The research, hours of browsing online, al wasted time that just made me more and more anxious. I’m almost certain my PFS is just mainly an anxiety floodgate because I was obsessing about crashing. Most of my mental progress so far has by been learning to cope and letting go.

Unfortunately for the likes of us only learning to let go and cope with the anxiety is ever going to make our lives livable.

It is good that you are stopping with the benzos. They are scandalously overprescribed for anxiety and only make it worse in the end. They are meant to be temporary fixes for short periods of high stress. To give you enough time to catch a breath and start fighting again.

Remind yourself of times before PFS. You can probably easily identify the anxiety that was lingering. Now imagine going back to that time and being able to identify the anxiety and cope with it in a healthy way.

You need to learn to let go and not overthink every minute thing, including stuff from the protocol. You are probably no longer fighting PFS but rather a persistent anxiety disorder, much like me.

I know it’s been said before but using mindfulness in daily life can really help. When you feel yourself going down the spiral just stop for a second and observe the moment. The noises, the feel of your weight or wind on your skin. These triggers really help me.

Also, I get that feeling of loneliness too. Even at times when there is no reason at all to feel lonely. Sometimes I dream about really depressing shit and being extremely lonely in my dreams. That can fuck me up for days afterwards.
Intense feelings of lonelyness is a very common thing with depression.

I know this isn't really the place to suggest it but, have you ever contemplated about getting on an SSRI? Stuff like lexapro is prescribed for anxiety states like obsessive overthinking. It feels like you have been fighting for a very long time. Maybe it's not that bad of a thing to seek some extra help?
On the other hand, knowing myself, I'd feel like you will start obsessing over the possible sexual side effects.

Also if you want to talk, you can always send me a DM man, any time.

[LetsGo]

Bro I feel you. It’s like I’m writing your posts. I obsess over every little thing and decision I’ve made in my life. For example this time I got a new car. Regretted it because I didn’t like the color. The regret ended up eating me up so much I had an expensive color wrapping done. My natural anxiety is so high and these regrets end up in obsessions that just linger and linger until it ramps up and explodes.

Or when I’m dating a new girl I can end up doubting and doubting whether she is the one so that I just blow it all up because the doubt and obsession is eating me up inside instead of giving it a fair shot.

When I started losing my hair the obsession of fixing it near ruined me mentally. The research, hours of browsing online, al wasted time that just made me more and more anxious. I’m almost certain my PFS is just mainly an anxiety floodgate because I was obsessing about crashing. Most of my mental progress so far has by been learning to cope and letting go.

Unfortunately for the likes of us only learning to let go and cope with the anxiety is ever going to make our lives livable.

It is good that you are stopping with the benzos. They are scandalously overprescribed for anxiety and only make it worse in the end. They are meant to be temporary fixes for short periods of high stress. To give you enough time to catch a breath and start fighting again.

Remind yourself of times before PFS. You can probably easily identify the anxiety that was lingering. Now imagine going back to that time and being able to identify the anxiety and cope with it in a healthy way.

You need to learn to let go and not overthink every minute thing, including stuff from the protocol. You are probably no longer fighting PFS but rather a persistent anxiety disorder, much like me.

I know it’s been said before but using mindfulness in daily life can really help. When you feel yourself going down the spiral just stop for a second and observe the moment. The noises, the feel of your weight or wind on your skin. These triggers really help me.

Thanks man. I think you can understand how the surgery would make me anxious, since I can’t take it back now. Hopefully it’ll look alright for at least a few years, and then I’ll deal with it when it doesn’t. By this time next year, hopefully the scar removal tech pans out, and then I can get the scar removed and shave my head when it’s time. Or if the tech doesn’t work out, hopefully it’ll be a narrow scar and scalp micropigmentation can camoflauge it well. I thought I’d feel anxious about selling my car, but I really didn’t - it’s just a car.

I know what you mean about the dating stuff, that has happened to me in the past a lot. When I didn’t know what was wrong with me sexually - I didn’t know I had PFS. Doctors told me it was impossible and that I was actually just anxious and depressed. But it was PFS. In your situation, it might be that you recovered from PFS and your symptoms are from anxiety, but me personally, I am still not over PFS. Everyone said that when I met the right woman, and just relaxed, I’d be able to enjoy sex. But I couldn’t feel any pleasure - with a partner or by myself. It always made me question if a woman was the right one. Nowadays I don’t expect to find a mythical “perfect” partner, but I want someone who is nice, sexually compatible, and hopefully a bit younger than me, like early 30s.

Thankfully I only took the benzos for short periods, since I had been warned about the addictiveness. A few days ago I remembered my medical cannabis chews that I split into thirds, and after taking a third of the gummy chew, my anxiety dropped by about 95% and I was able to focus on work again. I won’t be doing that daily, of course, but I think doing it for a certain number of days to get past this anxious period can make sense.

I’ve had many periods where I wasn’t working out, or wasn’t working out hard enough, etc, and that’s why I’m still not over PFS yet. It’s been more than 3 months, I think, since I stopped working out. And I’m only going to be able to recover when I’m back on the full protocol, so I need to get that sorted out.

On the anxiety front, I go through LONG periods without feeling anxious all the time. But then there are also times when some OCD tendencies lead to major anxiety as I obsess over certain things. I personally don’t obsess too much over material things, only about life things; irreversible things. My life would still be liveable even with PFS and my anxiety situation, but I want to overcome PFS and be able to at least enjoy masturbating again, and then find a nice partner.

I am one hundred percent still fighting PFS, unfortunately. The anxiety I’m having now is just on top of it. My johnson still looks weird for a few seconds after I urinate - like the hourglass shape, but only after I finish urinating. And that never happens during upswings. So that’s another way that I know that I’m not healed, aside from the obvious sexual sides I still have. I need to get back on the protocol 100% and focus on that. This anxiety bout has really been here since about September 17th or 18th, and I know my body well enough to know that this is still PFS. If I was over PFS and just had anxiety, I’d be getting morning wood every morning, I’d have my libido back, I’d be able to feel full orgasms again, etc. My anxiety has never been so bad that I couldn’t relax at all, so pre-fin it never affected me sexually.

There were a few months before I moved when I was feeling overwhelmed and focused on the move, and my business, and stopped working out. And then I still don’t have a new gym down here, in part because I don’t want to risk making my transplant scar become wide if I do certain exercises. But I need to focus on the exercises that won’t impact my scalp at all / risk widening the scar, and just do those until I reach at least the 6 week or 8 week mark. I’m already at the 3 week mark now. I just have to get back to the protocol.

Also I’m still, for some reason, craving validation of my plans to deal with the transplant longer-term. I just need to feel like it wasn’t a life-ruining mistake.

[Mojo]

If the scar troubles you this much, have you looked into near infra red treatment? You can get a light box that blasts 650nm and 850nm wavelength light and aim it at your scar for like 20 minutes a day and it works really well for repairing skin and reducing scars. I bought a box myself back in the day to get my boys some light. It works by stimulating the michochondria. Its widely used in professional sports to speed up recoveries. I bought a box from china for about 200 euros.

[LetsGo]

If the scar troubles you this much, have you looked into near infra red treatment? You can get a light box that blasts 650nm and 850nm wavelength light and aim it at your scar for like 20 minutes a day and it works really well for repairing skin and reducing scars. I bought a box myself back in the day to get my boys some light. It works by stimulating the michochondria. Its widely used in professional sports to speed up recoveries. I bought a box from china for about 200 euros.

Thanks, the incision is still in the early stages of healing, so I won’t know how thick or thin the scar will be for at least another 5 months, minimum. Hopefully it will be paper-thin, and if so, I could buzz my hair fairly short, but we’ll have to see.

One issue with the scar is that there’s a line with no hair growing out of it. So if I wanted to buzz my hair down short enough, there’d be a visible line with no hair in it. Depending on how wide the scar is, a #2 to #4 (6.35mm to 12.7mm) length buzz is needed for the scar to not be noticeable. It could be longer with a wide scar, which I hope I don’t get. For now, I just have to make sure that I don’t stretch or put tension on the scar - so I can’t do sit-ups or bench presses, or anything that puts tension on the scalp at all.

If I decide to do a full head shave, I have a red light device that's meant for full body use. I’d probably get a smaller one that could be more targeted. And then I’d also use silicon anti-scar strips at night and around the house. They hydrate the scar, which reduces the collagen over time and makes the scar thin out and blend in. I used them before on a large, wide scar on my finger, and it flattened out and became unnoticable. Between those two things, hopefully I could get the scar to fade to the point where it wouldn’t be noticeable with a shaved head. There are some celebrities like Joe Rogan and Kevin James who have FUT scars, and they’re still noticeable, but I don’t know if they’ve tried doing things to deal with the scars. I’m thinking maybe they didn’t bother trying.

Anyway, thank you for helping me think of a back-up plan.

1) Maybe the medical study will enable me to get rid of the scar with no trace. 2) If not, hopefully the scar isn’t recessed. If I shaved my head fully, I’d be able to use silicon anti-scar strips and gels to make the scar decrease to the point where hopefully it wouldn’t be noticeable.

The staples come out on Monday and that will help me to stop focusing on this stuff. Totally wish I hadn’t put myself through it, but it is what it is.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks, the incision is still in the early stages of healing, so I won’t know how thick or thin the scar will be for at least another 5 months, minimum. Hopefully it will be paper-thin, and if so, I could buzz my hair fairly short, but we’ll have to see.

One issue with the scar is that there’s a line with no hair growing out of it. So if I wanted to buzz my hair down short enough, there’d be a visible line with no hair in it. Depending on how wide the scar is, a #2 to #4 (6.35mm to 12.7mm) length buzz is needed for the scar to not be noticeable. It could be longer with a wide scar, which I hope I don’t get. For now, I just have to make sure that I don’t stretch or put tension on the scar - so I can’t do sit-ups or bench presses, or anything that puts tension on the scalp at all.

If I decide to do a full head shave, I have a red light device that's meant for full body use. I’d probably get a smaller one that could be more targeted. And then I’d also use silicon anti-scar strips at night and around the house. They hydrate the scar, which reduces the collagen over time and makes the scar thin out and blend in. I used them before on a large, wide scar on my finger, and it flattened out and became unnoticable. Between those two things, hopefully I could get the scar to fade to the point where it wouldn’t be noticeable with a shaved head. There are some celebrities like Joe Rogan and Kevin James who have FUT scars, and they’re still noticeable, but I don’t know if they’ve tried doing things to deal with the scars. I’m thinking maybe they didn’t bother trying.

Anyway, thank you for helping me think of a back-up plan.

1) Maybe the medical study will enable me to get rid of the scar with no trace. 2) If not, hopefully the scar isn’t recessed. If I shaved my head fully, I’d be able to use silicon anti-scar strips and gels to make the scar decrease to the point where hopefully it wouldn’t be noticeable.

The staples come out on Monday and that will help me to stop focusing on this stuff. Totally wish I hadn’t put myself through it, but it is what it is.

I just rock mine.....fuck it. Funny...I was so worried about losing my hair, now I get to walk around bald, with a huge scar from ear to ear.....FUCK IT

[Cdsnuts]

I hope that taking the benzos didn’t reset my progress at all, hopefully it just delayed things and I’m just in downswing. I’m hoping for significant progress in the back quarter of this year.

I also have to stop obsessing - OBSESSING - over the transplant and regret, etc. If I’d had any idea that it would affect me this way mentally, there’s no way I would have done it. I just hope that that anti-scar tech proves itself out and then when it’s time, I’ll be able to shave with no signs of any scars. But either way, I will get through this and it shouldn’t become this big or life-changing deal. I need to believe that.

Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with high anxiety? I feel like I need some encouragement as well.

BREATHE....meditate.....exercise

Didn't know you were taking benzo's.....

[LetsGo]

BREATHE....meditate.....exercise

Didn't know you were taking benzo's.....

It was only in September 2021 for a few days early in the month, and again in the middle of the month. The last time I’d taken them before that was a couple of weeks in 2018.

So it’s not like I’d been taking them all along, or daily, or weekly, or anything like that.

[Cdsnuts]

It was only in September 2021 for a few days early in the month, and again in the middle of the month. The last time I’d taken them before that was a couple of weeks in 2018.

So it’s not like I’d been taking them all along, or daily, or weekly, or anything like that.

Okay, good. Dangerous road.