Def's Journey

[DefRecover]

Hey All

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Long story short, I took finasteride (1.25mg) for about 13 years (2003 - 2016). I basically had no side effects for the first 10 years, but noticed my libido slowly starting to wane thereafter. It got to the point in 2016 where I had to use viagra every time for sex and then even started to struggle masturbating.

My worst symptoms are zero libido, ED without viagra (thankfully works), weak urine stream, post urination dribble (f*cking annoying), gut sensitivity, poor sleep, really cold fingers and toes, and dry skin. I only realised some of these symptoms could be caused by PFS after finding other (less helpful) websites. Strangely I do seem to get morning erections now and then - particularly if I sleep really poorly after drinking a lot (so the plumbing clearly does work). Thankfully I seem to have avoided most of the severe mental symptoms that many people have suffered - perhaps a little emotional flatness, difficult concentrating, and of course the poor sleep.

Since I quit finasteride cold turkey in 2016, I have tried to eat clean, work out regularly, get good sleep and avoid drinking where I can. I have seen all the doctors (urologist, endocrinologist, sleep, GP, etc) and a naturopath - the latter by far the most helpful. Also had pretty much every blood, urine, stool, and food intolerance test done. While my sex hormones are generally fine (estrogen was initially a little high), the key findings are that I was producing too much cortisol overnight, have a dairy intolerance (out of nowhere) and have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO). However, I haven't made any progress to speak of - and I know that is because I have just been a bit half assed about all of this.

I have read all of Total Male Optimisation and much of this site, and I get it - jump on the protocol and get on with it. I do have one question, however:

If I have SIBO, is it still ok for me to do a juice feast? I have been told that fruit and vegetable sugars can make SIBO worse. However, if I am just ingesting juices, I would have thought that they would move through my system too quickly to cause any real issues.

Overall, I have an innate sense that if I can get deep sleep, fix my gut, and then continue to avoid the booze, eat well and stay fit, I should be ok. However, really interested to hear the thoughts of the experts here. Also really grateful to have found such a positive place to help try and get myself back to baseline and hopefully well beyond.

Thanks in advance and apologies for the long read,

Def

[Cdsnuts]

Hey All

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Long story short, I took finasteride (1.25mg) for about 13 years (2003 - 2016). I basically had no side effects for the first 10 years, but noticed my libido slowly starting to wane thereafter. It got to the point in 2016 where I had to use viagra every time for sex and then even started to struggle masturbating.

My worst symptoms are zero libido, ED without viagra (thankfully works), weak urine stream, post urination dribble (f*cking annoying), gut sensitivity, poor sleep, really cold fingers and toes, and dry skin. I only realised some of these symptoms could be caused by PFS after finding other (less helpful) websites. Strangely I do seem to get morning erections now and then - particularly if I sleep really poorly after drinking a lot (so the plumbing clearly does work). Thankfully I seem to have avoided most of the severe mental symptoms that many people have suffered - perhaps a little emotional flatness, difficult concentrating, and of course the poor sleep.

Since I quit finasteride cold turkey in 2016, I have tried to eat clean, work out regularly, get good sleep and avoid drinking where I can. I have seen all the doctors (urologist, endocrinologist, sleep, GP, etc) and a naturopath - the latter by far the most helpful. Also had pretty much every blood, urine, stool, and food intolerance test done. While my sex hormones are generally fine (estrogen was initially a little high), the key findings are that I was producing too much cortisol overnight, have a dairy intolerance (out of nowhere) and have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO). However, I haven't made any progress to speak of - and I know that is because I have just been a bit half assed about all of this.

I have read all of Total Male Optimisation and much of this site, and I get it - jump on the protocol and get on with it. I do have one question, however:

If I have SIBO, is it still ok for me to do a juice feast? I have been told that fruit and vegetable sugars can make SIBO worse. However, if I am just ingesting juices, I would have thought that they would move through my system too quickly to cause any real issues.

Overall, I have an innate sense that if I can get deep sleep, fix my gut, and then continue to avoid the booze, eat well and stay fit, I should be ok. However, really interested to hear the thoughts of the experts here. Also really grateful to have found such a positive place to help try and get myself back to baseline and hopefully well beyond.

Thanks in advance and apologies for the long read,

Def

Welcome.

First off, don't try.......DO.

The juice feast would be beneficial to your gut. You may have a small flair in the beginning but by the end of the second week it will be much, much better if not completely gone. During the juice feast add in some probiotics. That should speed things along. These types of secondary issues really respond well to a water fast, but that just isn't an easy possibility for most.

The rest is self explanatory. That being said, use this forum for all of your questions.

[DefRecover]

Thanks for the welcome and advice, CD!

Looking forward to starting this juice feast as soon as my home is free of my holidaying, Irish, boozing, in-laws to be once they return to Dublin!

Cheer

Def

[DefRecover]

Hi All

A question about the juice cleanse. I work in a professional services firm and am pretty time poor (out the door by 7am and never back before 8pm at the earliest). That being the case, I was planning to "outsource" most of my juice production. Thankfully, I have an organic, cold pressed, high quality juice place around the corner that offers a range of juice cleanses.

Could those in the know here let me know whether the daily menu below is acceptable? I have confirmed with the company that these are all in fact "juices" (no pulp, solids, fibres, etc) - however, I am concerned that the "Vanilla Sky" with almond milk, date juice, vanilla etc may be cheating? If so, I might try and substitute this out for something else. I also plan to supplement with my own home made juices as the quantities look pretty low. I think these juice cleanses are probably designed for people that want to lose weight - though I am already 6'2", 165lbs, and pretty ripped so ideally don't want to lose any (I know I will).

Thanks again,

Def
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

Daily Menu

Each day of cleansing contains a total of 6 x 500ml juices

1 x Pocket Rocket
Filtered Water, Lemon, Maple, Cayenne-Pepper

1 x Evergreen
Pineapple, Orange, Spinach, Cucumber, Watercress, Cos, Turmeric, Chia, Chlorophyll

1 x The Hulk
Capsicum, Kale, Cos, Spinach, Cucumber, Green Apple, Lemon

1 x The Gapple
Green Apple, Celery, Ginger, Lemon

1 x Popeye
Kale, Spinach, Cos, Celery, Cucumber, Parsley, Lemon

1 x Vanilla Sky
Filtered Water, Almonds, Dates, Manuka Honey, Vanilla Bean

Nutritional Info (Per Day)
Energy: 3,580kJ
Protein: 33g
Fat Total: 26g
– Saturated: 3.6g
Carbohydrates: 99g
Sugars: 108g
Sodium: 665mg

[DefRecover]

It's quiet around here at the moment!...

Question - do we have any gut experts in our midst? My juice feast is rapidly approaching and I want to know what type of probiotic I should be taking per CD's advice. I have had a comprehensive stool test done and, while I am free of any parasites, it did show that I have off the charts levels of Enterobacter (normal gut bacteria) as well as some moderately increased levels of Pseudomonas and Klebsiella (opportunistic gut bacteria) and of course high levels of secretary IgA as a result of all the inflammation.

Someone like Chi would have been perfect to answer this...

Cheers

Def

[DefRecover]

Bueller?...

[Marquis]

I’m afraid you’re unlikely to find much expertise on gut health here, as we’re quite a small community. There are other forums out there more suited to discussing these issues. I would think, though, that if you have excessive levels of normal gut bacteria, a pro/prebiotic is the last thing you need.

To be honest, although my experience has caused me to radically revise my attitude towards alternative health practices, I’m still quite skeptical of stool analysis and this focus on the minutiae of gut flora - in my opinion, this particular brand of naturopathy is incredibly arcane and esoteric, it has the reek of medical authoritarianism we often find with mainstream medical practitioners about it, and people often end up paying big money for tests and appointments with naturopaths who drip-feed technical terms to their patients but largely keep them in the dark about the rhyme or reason of their treatment plan.

See if your digestive issues don’t resolve with a paleo diet - chances are, if you are still eating highly-irritating grains and legumes (you may also be nightshade-sensitive), they’re the cause of most of your digestive issues. Fruit sugars may not be your biggest concern - bacteria love to feed on starches, which most modern westernised diets are disproportionately high in. Additionally, you could try a daily Ray Peat-style grated carrot salad with coconut oil dressing, which with regular use may reduce the bacterial overgrowth somewhat and help your gut microbiome regulate itself.

Regarding the juices available at your nearby juice bar, I’d be slightly leery of the cayenne pepper as capsaicin is a digestive irritant which may hinder your progress (one of the benefits of the juice cleanse is that it enforces a diet that’s totally free of all common intestinal irritants), as well as the chia seeds as I don’t see how you could juice those, so they probably end up in your drink blended, but still as solids. Same with the turmeric if it’s a powder, rather than the actual root. With regard to almond milk, nuts are common allergens, so it may not be ideal, and most commercial almond milks are actually a freakish blend of plant starch, emulsifiers, and little actual almond, but if you can confirm that it’s 100% almonds and nothing else, it could be all right.

I’m sorry if my advice seems overly harsh or puritanical, but it’s just my 2 cents so feel free to take it with a pinch of salt.

[Marquis]

Oh and a heads up, my digestion was all kinds of weird during the juice feast, but it was back to normal as soon as I started eating solid foods again.

[DefRecover]

Marquis

Thanks for the thoughtful advice. I think I might hold off on the probiotics for now. I think I will also substitute the almond “juice” out as well.

My gut has been all over the shop the last couple of years and I just cannot figure out what is causing the issues. Here is hoping a good juice feast and going paleo will help reduce the inflammation and issues.

Cheers

Def

[Marquis]

You're welcome, good luck on your cleanse!

[DefRecover]

So my juice feast starts tomorrow and it is winter here. A couple questions (to which I suspect the answer will be no), is it ok for me to drink:

1) warm vegetable broth, prepared using a slow cooker and nut milk bagged of all fibres, at night?

2) plain grass fed bone broth?

I appreciate none of these is juice, or mentioned on TMO, but wanted to check as it will make evenings much more pleasant...

Def

[DefRecover]

Hi All - another question.

Am half a day into my juice feast. Apologies if this is TMI, but is it normal for the juices to be flying through you in the form of liquid stool within half a day? First movement this morning was normal, but now basically pure (bright green juice coloured) liquid...

Just want to make sure I’m not having a bad / out of the ordinary reaction.

Def

[DefRecover]

Guys - any advice on this? My partner is also doing the juice feast with me and she is still having normal movements. Appreciate that everyone is different, but I am now at the end of day 2 and still having liquid movements (around 4 today) and just want to make sure this is all part of the detox process... I will push through, but hoping this will level out and I actually absorb more of the nutrients.

[Marquis]

Guys - any advice on this? My partner is also doing the juice feast with me and she is still having normal movements. Appreciate that everyone is different, but I am now at the end of day 2 and still having liquid movements (around 4 today) and just want to make sure this is all part of the detox process... I will push through, but hoping this will level out and I actually absorb more of the nutrients.

Can't speak for what's normal, but my experience was similar to yours.

[DefRecover]

Cheers bud - that helps - will keep pushing on.

[DKnighten]

Are you going by the greens drink outline on TMO? A pound of celery, pound of mixed greens, 1 cucumber, etc? Adding any lemon juice or anything? Just checking, I've had to backtrack my juice feast because I seriously underestimated the amount of work and time in the mornings for it.

[DefRecover]

I am broadly following the TMO ingredient list. Like you, I am also pretty time poor, so I purchased the bulk of my juices from a fresh, organic, cold pressed juice place around the corner from me. You can see the juice list and their ingredients further up in this thread - though I made a couple of substitutions on Marquis’ advice.

I am also supplementing morning and night with my own fresh made juices - mainly celery, cucumber, ginger, some carrot and apple. NutriBullet plus nut milk bag seems to be working to fill in a few juices each day.

Today is my first day working on the juice feast and it is not (yet) as bad as I thought it would be.

[DefRecover]

Lads

Apologies for spamming - but are we allowed to juice tomatoes on a juice feast? They aren't specifically referred to on TMO but they are "fruits" and I would definitely use those sweet little cherry tomatoes in juices if we can...

[Cdsnuts]

Lads

Apologies for spamming - but are we allowed to juice tomatoes on a juice feast? They aren't specifically referred to on TMO but they are "fruits" and I would definitely use those sweet little cherry tomatoes in juices if we can...

You're not spamming.....

And yes, you can use tomatoes.

[DefRecover]

So I’m up to day 10 on the juice feast... it’s not as bad as I thought it would be, though I am getting really over the juice now. My gut is also still a bit all over the shop - but definitely better than at the start. Plan to go for 14 days.... but now want to plan for the next phase...

What do you guys eat for quick, healthy, paleo breakfasts other than eggs (+ bacon + fish + veg)? I think breakfast is the meal where I am going to miss carbs most as I would usually eat a few slices of wholemeal toast with avocado / eggs / vegemite (it’s an Aussie spread). Any recommendations for quick, healthy and filling paleo brekky recipes - ideally 10-15 min prep time!

[Cdsnuts]

So I’m up to day 10 on the juice feast... it’s not as bad as I thought it would be, though I am getting really over the juice now. My gut is also still a bit all over the shop - but definitely better than at the start. Plan to go for 14 days.... but now want to plan for the next phase...

What do you guys eat for quick, healthy, paleo breakfasts other than eggs (+ bacon + fish + veg)? I think breakfast is the meal where I am going to miss carbs most as I would usually eat a few slices of wholemeal toast with avocado / eggs / vegemite (it’s an Aussie spread). Any recommendations for quick, healthy and filling paleo brekky recipes - ideally 10-15 min prep time!

A hurdle for some guys is the breakfast thing. You have to re train your mind as to what constitutes breakfast foods. All in all, this is just a concept created by people. Food is food. You could always try some gluten free options, but really it's just best to stay on track as much as possible.

[DefRecover]

Thanks man. Yeah - I get it. Just wondering if any dudes had any good tips. I have come up with my own brekky roster for the time being.

Incidentally, that is my 14 days of juice f*cken done! I have lost a shit ton of weight - now 6’2” and about 65kg/145lb... that’s nearly 10kg down on my usuall weight. But that’s all good. Can’t wait to build myself back up. Broke my fast with watermelon and going to slowly work up to paleo diet again.

Another question, this time re the herbs. TMO says we should dose on an empty stomach in the morning and then again in the afternoon. Is that the same herb twice a day? Going to start out with an 8 herb weekly cycle and build up (pine pollen daily plus 7 to cycle). Any recommendations as to the best 7? I am thinking tongkat, horny goat, maca, Ashwagandha, mucuna, cistanche and maybe eleuthero? Thoughts?

[Marquis]

Thanks man. Yeah - I get it. Just wondering if any dudes had any good tips. I have come up with my own brekky roster for the time being.

Incidentally, that is my 14 days of juice f*cken done! I have lost a shit ton of weight - now 6’2” and about 65kg/145lb... that’s nearly 10kg down on my usuall weight. But that’s all good. Can’t wait to build myself back up. Broke my fast with watermelon and going to slowly work up to paleo diet again.

Another question, this time re the herbs. TMO says we should dose on an empty stomach in the morning and then again in the afternoon. Is that the same herb twice a day? Going to start out with an 8 herb weekly cycle and build up (pine pollen daily plus 7 to cycle). Any recommendations as to the best 7? I am thinking tongkat, horny goat, maca, Ashwagandha, mucuna, cistanche and maybe eleuthero? Thoughts?

Congratulations. Most (not all) of the herbs from Lost Empire recommend dosing twice daily on the instructions on the packet, so I presume the instructions on TMO are referring to that, although I'm curious to hear myself whether CD or anyone else feels it's worth going beyond the recommended dose/doubling up on any of the 'single-dose' herbs.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks man. Yeah - I get it. Just wondering if any dudes had any good tips. I have come up with my own brekky roster for the time being.

Incidentally, that is my 14 days of juice f*cken done! I have lost a shit ton of weight - now 6’2” and about 65kg/145lb... that’s nearly 10kg down on my usuall weight. But that’s all good. Can’t wait to build myself back up. Broke my fast with watermelon and going to slowly work up to paleo diet again.

Another question, this time re the herbs. TMO says we should dose on an empty stomach in the morning and then again in the afternoon. Is that the same herb twice a day? Going to start out with an 8 herb weekly cycle and build up (pine pollen daily plus 7 to cycle). Any recommendations as to the best 7? I am thinking tongkat, horny goat, maca, Ashwagandha, mucuna, cistanche and maybe eleuthero? Thoughts?

Yes, same herb, twice daily.

All of them can be dosed twice a day. If the directions call for one teaspoon/day, take half a teaspoon in the a.m. and then half a teaspoon in the late afternoon.

In the beginning though, you want to go for the max recommended dose, so for most of them, that's two teaspoons a day.

[DefRecover]

Herbs ordered - pine pollen, HGW, tongkat, maca, shilajat, cistanche, mucuna, ashwaghanda, he shou wu and ant. Can’t wait until these arrive and to start dosing!

Back in the gym yesterday and while I have lost a little strength - again not as bad as I expected. I am going to build it all back with pure, organically fed, muscle...

I am now up to having steamed veggies again and no digestive issues yet - a great sign! Still no libido and sleep still light and unrefreshing, but I plan to start the sleep supplements shortly too. Thanks all for the help to date!

[RickTheRuler]

I’ve overdosed on herbs a lot. Not so much on amount per dose but the amount of doses in a day.. for example, Goji Berry says 1-2 tablespoons a day.. I’m assuming you take it twice a day as recommend.
i would take 1 teaspoon morning, afternoon, and evening with Pine Pollen. There’s been times I took a herb 4x spread through the day.

The only negative effect I got was that I took too much Rhodiola one time and threw up minutes later. Same happened not too long ago with He Shou Wu. I was on the move & didn’t have a spoon on me, so I just knocked the bag back in my mouth & tried to guesstimate a teaspoon. Went way over the amount and barfed it out. Same deal with potassium chloride powder.

So for me, chugging a lot at once is problematic. But taking the recommended amount 3,4 times is no issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DefRecover]

Nice one - I am now just biding my time until my herbs arrive. I am in Australia so the Lost Empire delivery could take a while (particularly with our crazy customs laws).

Been strict paleo and slowly getting into the cold showers.... Unfortunately got a super busy patch at work so training is not where I need it to be yet. No change in the sleep or libido as yet, but gut is definitely better than it was. Still noticing gut sensitivities to a couple of foods so trying to weed them out.

Btw - post juice feast and paleo it feels like my gut is on steroids. The output is... immense... Is this a thing?!

[Cdsnuts]

Nice one - I am now just biding my time until my herbs arrive. I am in Australia so the Lost Empire delivery could take a while (particularly with our crazy customs laws).

Been strict paleo and slowly getting into the cold showers.... Unfortunately got a super busy patch at work so training is not where I need it to be yet. No change in the sleep or libido as yet, but gut is definitely better than it was. Still noticing gut sensitivities to a couple of foods so trying to weed them out.

Btw - post juice feast and paleo it feels like my gut is on steroids. The output is... immense... Is this a thing?!

Proper digestion should typically be meal in, meal out, lol. This is a general rule of thumb and is true for most people.

[DefRecover]

So my herbs have finally arrived! Now have pine pollen, tongkat, maca, HGW, cistanche, shilajit, ashwaghanda, mucuna, eleuthero and he shou wu.

Looking forward to getting this rotation going properly. A couple of questions:

1) I tried Shilajit resin today. How the f@ck do you use this stuff?! Getting it out of the tub is simple enough but that sh!t does not want to leave the little spoon... Is there something I’m missing here?

2) for those of you that work in an office, how do you manage your second daily dose? Do you have a set of herbs for work and one at home?

By way of general update, not much to note in the way of changes - but it is early days yet. I have been pretty much strict paleo since breaking my fast, but there is still something that is setting off my gut, causing bloating and gas, and weirdly night time awakening. I have tried all kinds of eliminations, so might need to see an gastro doctor for a scope... Will give it another month or so...

Finally back in the gym again after EOFY, so looking forward to making some serious strides soon.

Def

[Cdsnuts]

So my herbs have finally arrived! Now have pine pollen, tongkat, maca, HGW, cistanche, shilajit, ashwaghanda, mucuna, eleuthero and he shou wu.

Looking forward to getting this rotation going properly. A couple of questions:

1) I tried Shilajit resin today. How the f@ck do you use this stuff?! Getting it out of the tub is simple enough but that sh!t does not want to leave the little spoon... Is there something I’m missing here?

2) for those of you that work in an office, how do you manage your second daily dose? Do you have a set of herbs for work and one at home?

By way of general update, not much to note in the way of changes - but it is early days yet. I have been pretty much strict paleo since breaking my fast, but there is still something that is setting off my gut, causing bloating and gas, and weirdly night time awakening. I have tried all kinds of eliminations, so might need to see an gastro doctor for a scope... Will give it another month or so...

Finally back in the gym again after EOFY, so looking forward to making some serious strides soon.

Def

1. If you have the option, I prefer the pitch to all the other versions because of this reason.....the resin is a pain in the dick to work with. You don't bother with that little spoon....use the end of a butter knife and just dip out the dose and lick it off....done.

2. Not sure what you mean by manage the second dose? You just take the herbs? Not sure I understand your question?

[DefRecover]

Is pitch the Shilajit powder at LEH? I will pick that up next time.

I guess my second question was linked to the first. Like how do I separate my Shilajit into two portions so I can take the second dose at work - or do you just carry the little tub around with you? For the powders I had just become that guy who has a bunch of jars with assorted powders in his office LOL

[DefRecover]

So one of the major areas I am still struggling with is sleep. I am pretty sure this is partly related to my gut problems. If my gut is off, gas, bloating etc - then my sleep will be off too. It feels like pathogenic bacteria that react to certain foods, but for some reason seem to create most havoc at night between 3 and 5am.

Anyway, to try and help my sleep, I am getting into the sleep supplements. I have magnesium, glycine and a combined ziziphus and passion flower supplement (Metagenics). Should the sleep supplements be cycled? Or are they designed to be used daily as a stack?

[Cdsnuts]

Is pitch the Shilajit powder at LEH? I will pick that up next time.

I guess my second question was linked to the first. Like how do I separate my Shilajit into two portions so I can take the second dose at work - or do you just carry the little tub around with you? For the powders I had just become that guy who has a bunch of jars with assorted powders in his office LOL

The pitch is different then the powder. It's like a play-doe consistency whereas the resin is more gooey.

I would separate my doses in pre-measured empty medicine bottles and just knock it back when the time comes in the afternoon. Do what ever you need to do to make it work. I found this easier then carrying around the bags of herbs.

[Cdsnuts]

So one of the major areas I am still struggling with is sleep. I am pretty sure this is partly related to my gut problems. If my gut is off, gas, bloating etc - then my sleep will be off too. It feels like pathogenic bacteria that react to certain foods, but for some reason seem to create most havoc at night between 3 and 5am.

Anyway, to try and help my sleep, I am getting into the sleep supplements. I have magnesium, glycine and a combined ziziphus and passion flower supplement (Metagenics). Should the sleep supplements be cycled? Or are they designed to be used daily as a stack?

They don't need to be cycled as much as the T boosters simply because the mechanism of action is different. The Mag and the glycine can be taken nightly...the sleep herbs you can take one half the week and the other on the other half of the week. You should also pick up Albizia....this one works the best IMO.

[DefRecover]

Thanks CD - will pick up some Albizia with my next LEH order.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks CD - will pick up some Albizia with my next LEH order.

It's just a shame it taste so awful....lol. I can tolerate alot of nasty tasting shit, but this one really makes me hate it. Works though.

[DefRecover]

Hi All

Thought I would drop in to give you all a 3/4 month update.

It's been a relatively short time, so wasn't expecting any miracles. However, overall, I think I have made some steps in the right direction as set out below. My biggest obstacle in this seems to be me. My job, social life, and relationship seem to get in the way of me fully committing to the protocol by making me eat out, drink and have late nights more often than I should. I am lucky that this doesn’t seem to set me back too far, and that if I commit to the protocol at other times, I am generally ok. It is definitely delaying my progress though and I will cut this back as best I can. I have summarised my improvements and continuing issues below

Improvements

1) Exercise is working and I am starting to get stronger in the gym for the first time in a while. Body weight is now up to 165lb from a low of 145lb during juice feast. All muscle

2) Sleep is slightly better if I my gut is not playing up and I use glycine (though still not great - see below).

3) Urine stream seems stronger generally.

4) If I sleep well, then I am seeing more and stronger morning erections.

5) The weeks I get the protocol right, I generally do feel a bit better and sharper overall.

Issues that continue

1) Sleep is still not great in that I will usually wake up at least once or twice (for between 10 and 30 mins) and not as deep as it should be. However it is better than it was - I would relatively often be up for 1-2 hours in the middle of the night which happens less and less.

2) Gut is still problematic but may have had a breakthrough there. I went to a gastro to have an X ray and scope to rule out anything serious. Scope was fine but X ray revealed that I was backed up - even though I was having bowel movements 1 to 3 times a day! I have been using a natural, osmotic bulking agent (sodium chloride, citric acid, lime juice etc) to bulk and soften the backlog. This seems to be slowly working and with it reducing the gas and bloating. We will see.

3) Libido is still non-existent, but as I understand one of the last things to come back online. Thankfully my fiancé’s isn’t that high at the moment either.

4) Sill need PDE5s for sex. I don’t have ED - ie the junk works - but it can take a long time to get it going (which can be difficult without a libido). PDE5s are easier for now.

5) Still dry skin and some other more minor issues.

Things I have done / am doing well:

1) juice fast for 2 weeks as outlined above.

2) pretty much straight paleo with backloading on gym days. My gf and I have worked out a recipe for bread using no grain (mainly almond meal) which helps a lot in the mornings.

3) herb rotation of pine pollen (daily), tongkat, maca, HGW, ashwaghanda, mucuna, he shou wu, eleuthero, cistanche, shilajit resin. First dose is easy, but I do often forget my afternoon dose if I am stuck in meetings, out of office, etc. Need to fix that. Also just ordered Albizia for sleep.

4) heavy lifts 2-3 times a week, yoga 1-2 times a week and tennis once on weekend.

5) cut out xenoestrogens and using natural products.

6) glycine, magnesium and ziziphus / Passion flower for sleep.

7) sunning myself whenever I can (boys whenever I have a chance in private!).

8) no fap.

Things I have not done / been slacking on:

1) cold showers - been pussying out but have just started up again now winter is over

2) breathing exercises and meditation - mental symptoms aren’t bad but I would like to start doing this to see if it helps with sleep

3) skin brushing - I probably just need to get a brush and make it a habit

4) bathmate - I don’t have one and not sure I will get one - not sure how anyone does 20 mins of pumping in a cold shower!

5) prohormones - don’t think I’m ready yet.

6) alcohol - it is a year in which many of my best friends seem to be getting married, leaving for overseas, etc so there has been quite a number of events and some to come (including my own wedding) so I have been drinking more than I should - usually only on weekends and still not going crazy - but still not good for recovery.

Apologies for another monster post, but it is good to write this out for my own benefit if no one else’s!

Def

[DefRecover]

I suspect the answer to this is going to be “everyone’s different” but what are the general stages of recovery? You often read about libido being the last thing to come back. But what about the other stuff?

As I’ve noted in my last point, over first 4 months I have definitely managed to gain some muscle mass, strength and perhaps slightly better sleep. Is it “normal” for those to be the first things to improve? I had a bit of a downswing a week or so ago but seem to be swinging back up again this week.

Gut is still not right though and, when it is off, there is almost a 100% correlation with poor sleep... Libido still non existent...

[RickTheRuler]

I suspect the answer to this is going to be “everyone’s different” but what are the general stages of recovery? You often read about libido being the last thing to come back. But what about the other stuff?

As I’ve noted in my last point, over first 4 months I have definitely managed to gain some muscle mass, strength and perhaps slightly better sleep. Is it “normal” for those to be the first things to improve? I had a bit of a downswing a week or so ago but seem to be swinging back up again this week.

Gut is still not right though and, when it is off, there is almost a 100% correlation with poor sleep... Libido still non existent...

Libido, if you have penis curvature, weird texture to it etc, basically anything sexual is last for the most part. It’s nature, sexual things turn on when the body is in abundance and everything else is on point, it’s basically saying “okay, conditions are optimal, time to reproduce”.. when your compromised your body does not want to breed itself in such a state.

Everything else id say is up to the person.. mental symptoms usually go away first, but that’s not as common as sexual symptoms being last.. but I can see why mental symptoms get better first for most, it all starts with the brain ; body follows.

for me, my sleep got better first.. i remember id sleep well and mornings would be the worst cause I’d wake up from a dream and realize I’m depressed, suicidal, anxious etc. it was like hello back to reality. after a few Andro cycles my stool was starting to look normal, which kind of shits on the theory of PFS starting in the gut... every problem is stemmed from lack of 5AR or lack of 5AR sensitivity, whichever it is. & we all know these cycles increase 5AR’s density and sensitivity over time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DefRecover]

Hey all

Just a quick update. I am at about the 6 month mark now.

I have made noticeable improvements in exercise, muscle mass but still struggling with gut and sleep. Libido will, of course, be the last thing to come back online.

I am noticing that the days I do heavy weights sessions (usually 3pm) that I sleep worse for some reason. I would have thought this should be the opposite. Am I pushing myself too hard??

I also notice that if I have a blow out, eg got pretty wasted on Fri, that it sets me back for a good week or so. Once my wedding is over, that all stops for a while...

Otherwise, still doing herbs, cold showers, paleo, and most other aspects of paleo.

Cheers

Def

[covfefe42]

Hey all

Just a quick update. I am at about the 6 month mark now.

I have made noticeable improvements in exercise, muscle mass but still struggling with gut and sleep. Libido will, of course, be the last thing to come back online.

I am noticing that the days I do heavy weights sessions (usually 3pm) that I sleep worse for some reason. I would have thought this should be the opposite. Am I pushing myself too hard??

I also notice that if I have a blow out, eg got pretty wasted on Fri, that it sets me back for a good week or so. Once my wedding is over, that all stops for a while...

Otherwise, still doing herbs, cold showers, paleo, and most other aspects of paleo.

Cheers

Def

Hey man I have pretty similar symptoms to you (mainly gut issues, libido and sleep). I also noticed that getting drunk seems to set me back a week as well.

As far as weight sessions making your sleep worse, I want to say that's happened to me as well, but there were also other things going on so I can't make a clear correlation between the two just yet. Will definitely start tracking that though and see what the effects are

Otherwise keep it up man, seems like you're making good progress!

[DefRecover]

Lads

Sorry for the long silence. Looks like a number of new faces around here - so welcome to all.

I have just come back from my wedding and honeymoon. This has meant the last few months has been pretty patchy on the protocol with the silly season, then (multiple) stag parties, a multiple day destination wedding and then honeymoon. In short, lots of non paleo food, gluten, booze, late nights, less exercise, no herbs while travelling etc - the anti protocol!

The good news is that none of this seems to have set me back much if at all. I am now back into the protocol full swing again. About 9 months in, my main remaining issues are low / no libido, digestion problems and sleep. Even the sleep seems to be getting SLIGHTLY better. Most nights I can sleep from 11pm to 5am, but then I often wake up and have trouble getting to sleep again, usually drifting off around 6/6.30am not long before my alarm goes off! There is definitely a correlation between my digestion and sleep, so once I get the digestion sorted I am hoping everything else will click into place...

Otherwise things are pretty decent. I didn’t lose much strength in the gym and seem to have maintained my muscle mass. No mental issues really (other than libido). I do have a couple of questions though:

1) herb shelf life - what is the lifespan of our herbs once they have been opened? I have about 10 which I have been cycling and still have quite a lot left of each. However, my tongkat, eleuthero, and he shou wu have started clumping together and are no longer really powders. Does this mean they have gone bad? Is it ok to keep using the herbs when they are in this state? I am assuming this is because of exposure to moisture or air? How do you guys store your herbs - in the plastic zip lock bags they come in or airtight jars or something?

2) pine pollen powder - pretty much every time I take pine pollen powder it seems to throw my digestion off, which in turn wrecks my sleep. Has anyone else experienced this? Should I switch to the tincture instead? I am still cycling it but it is either a crazy coincidence or the pine pollen isn’t sitting well with me.

3) weights - pretty much every time I lift weights it seems to throw off my sleep. I typically sleep much lighter with more wake ups than non weights days. I assume this is some kind of cortisol issue - even though I try not to over exert myself. I generally lift at 3pm which is far from the recommended at least 2 hours before sleep. Should I switch to morning sessions? Any other ideas?

4) baby - yep the b word. Now we are married, the girl wants to start trying for a kid. Do you think it is ok for us to try and reproduce whilst I am not fully recovered from PFS? I wonder whether it might reduce fertility and, even if you can get one past the keeper, will it affect the health of the baby? Thoughts? While I am 42, the wife is only 29, so I probably have a little time...

Cheers

Def

[Turnover25]

Lads

Sorry for the long silence. Looks like a number of new faces around here - so welcome to all.

I have just come back from my wedding and honeymoon. This has meant the last few months has been pretty patchy on the protocol with the silly season, then (multiple) stag parties, a multiple day destination wedding and then honeymoon. In short, lots of non paleo food, gluten, booze, late nights, less exercise, no herbs while travelling etc - the anti protocol!

The good news is that none of this seems to have set me back much if at all. I am now back into the protocol full swing again. About 9 months in, my main remaining issues are low / no libido, digestion problems and sleep. Even the sleep seems to be getting SLIGHTLY better. Most nights I can sleep from 11pm to 5am, but then I often wake up and have trouble getting to sleep again, usually drifting off around 6/6.30am not long before my alarm goes off! There is definitely a correlation between my digestion and sleep, so once I get the digestion sorted I am hoping everything else will click into place...

Otherwise things are pretty decent. I didn’t lose much strength in the gym and seem to have maintained my muscle mass. No mental issues really (other than libido). I do have a couple of questions though:

1) herb shelf life - what is the lifespan of our herbs once they have been opened? I have about 10 which I have been cycling and still have quite a lot left of each. However, my tongkat, eleuthero, and he shou wu have started clumping together and are no longer really powders. Does this mean they have gone bad? Is it ok to keep using the herbs when they are in this state? I am assuming this is because of exposure to moisture or air? How do you guys store your herbs - in the plastic zip lock bags they come in or airtight jars or something?

2) pine pollen powder - pretty much every time I take pine pollen powder it seems to throw my digestion off, which in turn wrecks my sleep. Has anyone else experienced this? Should I switch to the tincture instead? I am still cycling it but it is either a crazy coincidence or the pine pollen isn’t sitting well with me.

3) weights - pretty much every time I lift weights it seems to throw off my sleep. I typically sleep much lighter with more wake ups than non weights days. I assume this is some kind of cortisol issue - even though I try not to over exert myself. I generally lift at 3pm which is far from the recommended at least 2 hours before sleep. Should I switch to morning sessions? Any other ideas?

4) baby - yep the b word. Now we are married, the girl wants to start trying for a kid. Do you think it is ok for us to try and reproduce whilst I am not fully recovered from PFS? I wonder whether it might reduce fertility and, even if you can get one past the keeper, will it affect the health of the baby? Thoughts? While I am 42, the wife is only 29, so I probably have a little time...

Cheers

Def


Congrats on your wedding brother! Glad to hear that this shit hasn't kept you from getting married. As far as your questions, I'm not the guy to answer honestly. I'll wait for one of the more knowledgable guys see your post so they can answer correctly.

I had one question for you, when you say digestion is off, what does that mean exactly? I've been wondering if my gut is a big issue for a while, so I'm going to start focusing more on gut health, but I don't know exactly what equates to "bad digestion" in a PFS sense. I guess if I really was struggling with digestion, I would know? Someone once asked if they were suffering from brain fog, the answer was pretty clear. "If you were, you'd know".

Anyways, my advise on having a baby, don't let this thing prevent you from living your life. Keep on keeping on with the protocol and you'll improve further, don't allow PFS to postpone your life.

[DefRecover]

Thanks T25!

My main gut issue is that I get quite a bit of cramping and gas build up. It is definitely worse when I eat foods out, so may be an intolerance to something but I have no idea what it is. I think it is this gas build up that might trigger the vagus nerve and wake me up at night.

Def

[Hulk Smash]

Lads

Sorry for the long silence. Looks like a number of new faces around here - so welcome to all.

I have just come back from my wedding and honeymoon. This has meant the last few months has been pretty patchy on the protocol with the silly season, then (multiple) stag parties, a multiple day destination wedding and then honeymoon. In short, lots of non paleo food, gluten, booze, late nights, less exercise, no herbs while travelling etc - the anti protocol!

The good news is that none of this seems to have set me back much if at all. I am now back into the protocol full swing again. About 9 months in, my main remaining issues are low / no libido, digestion problems and sleep. Even the sleep seems to be getting SLIGHTLY better. Most nights I can sleep from 11pm to 5am, but then I often wake up and have trouble getting to sleep again, usually drifting off around 6/6.30am not long before my alarm goes off! There is definitely a correlation between my digestion and sleep, so once I get the digestion sorted I am hoping everything else will click into place...

Otherwise things are pretty decent. I didn’t lose much strength in the gym and seem to have maintained my muscle mass. No mental issues really (other than libido). I do have a couple of questions though:

1) herb shelf life - what is the lifespan of our herbs once they have been opened? I have about 10 which I have been cycling and still have quite a lot left of each. However, my tongkat, eleuthero, and he shou wu have started clumping together and are no longer really powders. Does this mean they have gone bad? Is it ok to keep using the herbs when they are in this state? I am assuming this is because of exposure to moisture or air? How do you guys store your herbs - in the plastic zip lock bags they come in or airtight jars or something?

2) pine pollen powder - pretty much every time I take pine pollen powder it seems to throw my digestion off, which in turn wrecks my sleep. Has anyone else experienced this? Should I switch to the tincture instead? I am still cycling it but it is either a crazy coincidence or the pine pollen isn’t sitting well with me.

3) weights - pretty much every time I lift weights it seems to throw off my sleep. I typically sleep much lighter with more wake ups than non weights days. I assume this is some kind of cortisol issue - even though I try not to over exert myself. I generally lift at 3pm which is far from the recommended at least 2 hours before sleep. Should I switch to morning sessions? Any other ideas?

4) baby - yep the b word. Now we are married, the girl wants to start trying for a kid. Do you think it is ok for us to try and reproduce whilst I am not fully recovered from PFS? I wonder whether it might reduce fertility and, even if you can get one past the keeper, will it affect the health of the baby? Thoughts? While I am 42, the wife is only 29, so I probably have a little time...

Cheers

Def

Congrats on getting married! Sounds like youre very close to 100%. In my humble and informed opinion, you may as well wait until you hit that full recovery milestone before making your baby. Just stay focused, you got this.

[DefRecover]

Thanks for the wishes, Hulk!

I think I still have some way to go - but definitely moving in the right direction. Progress has been a little slower than some, but then I haven’t been helping myself at times... Despite my advanced years 😉, I am still keen to try and get myself to better than my pre-fin baseline.

Grateful for any other opinions from the vets on my questions!

Cheers

Def

[DefRecover]

I’ve checked the Lost Empire website.

While I wasn’t able to find any specific information on how long herbs stay good (after opening), or herbs clumping, I do notice that they are now offering free miron jars with Tongkat Ali.

Clearly other people must have experienced these issues as well... I think I will go buy some airtight jars. Sick of these bloody zip lock bags!

[Cdsnuts]

I’ve checked the Lost Empire website.

While I wasn’t able to find any specific information on how long herbs stay good (after opening), or herbs clumping, I do notice that they are now offering free miron jars with Tongkat Ali.

Clearly other people must have experienced these issues as well... I think I will go buy some airtight jars. Sick of these bloody zip lock bags!

The herbs are fine when they clump together like this. It doesn't effect the potency of the herbs. But I agree....the zip lock bags are a pain in the ass!

[DefRecover]

So I am looking out my bathroom window this morning and see a guy in the adjacent apartment building, on his bed, on all fours, proudly sunning his balls with the window and curtains wide open.

CD - WTF have you started...

[Cdsnuts]

So I am looking out my bathroom window this morning and see a guy in the adjacent apartment building, on his bed, on all fours, proudly sunning his balls with the window and curtains wide open.

CD - WTF have you started...

LOL....you have to be shitting me. Hey, my man is getting juiced!! Sorry for the visual.

[DefRecover]

Hey guys

One of my most annoying PFS symptoms is super dry skin - particularly hands and feet. To the point that it actually starts cracking and sometimes bleeding a little in winter.

I try using moisturisers after showering and washing hands etc but it doesn’t seem to do much.

What do you guys use for this? Any supplements that help?

R

[JoeP26]

Best thing that worked for me was soaking in a warm bath with 2 cups of Malic acid. I get a huge organic jar of it on Amazon. Skin feels amazingly baby smooth from it after the skin brushing.

[DefRecover]

Corona and DHT:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-24/coronavirus-baldness-may-be-risk-factor-covid-19/12385216

[DefRecover]

Hey lads

Is there an optimal time for us to be doing our weights session for hormonal benefits?

Not sure if it is coincidence, but I find that when I do a weights session at 3pm, my performance isn’t as good and I seem to have real trouble sleeping at night. I think maybe cortisol release as I find myself having to urinate a lot in the evening.

This seems to be less of an issue when I exercise at 10.30am.

Guidance appreciated.

Cheers

Def

[Rafenk]

Hey lads

Is there an optimal time for us to be doing our weights session for hormonal benefits?

Not sure if it is coincidence, but I find that when I do a weights session at 3pm, my performance isn’t as good and I seem to have real trouble sleeping at night. I think maybe cortisol release as I find myself having to urinate a lot in the evening.

This seems to be less of an issue when I exercise at 10.30am.

Guidance appreciated.

Cheers

Def

Check this out: Why Sleep is More Important Than Diet | Shawn Stevenson on Health Theory - YouTube (https://youtu.be/4Mtw3vBQYOg?t=1848) (linked to where he talks about the time of day to exercise).

The Regimen on the TMO quick start guide has it listed in the morning aswell. That's when I do it too (plus I'm usually still fasting).

[DefRecover]

Thanks man - that is a pretty interesting link. Watched the whole thing. Morning it is then...

[DefRecover]

Question about schissandra - is this the best cortisol lowering supplement and does this need to be cycled? Any other recommendations for supplements to lower cortisol at night?

I ask because the King of Unusual Symptoms (aka me) has trouble sleeping well after heavy lifting days (even if I train early in the morning). I always have trouble falling asleep, often wake up hot and sweaty, and end up usually having a really light and shit night’s sleep.

I have tried ZMA but unfortunately my gut can’t really tolerate magnesium - causes gas and bloating - which again fucks my sleep...

[DefRecover]

CD

What’s the current view on Testofen or fenugreek extract? I see from a few older posts on here that you used to use and get results from it. Then there are a bunch of other posts on here from people freaking out about its 5AR effects.

I ask because I am not ready / keen to do a PH cycle at this stage. Want to see if I can get through this without doing so (I know I am probably apprehensive for no good reason). So, the last month or so, I thought I would give the LEH herbs a break and have been trying a cycle of a Testofen based product (also contains ashwaghanda, tribulus, and other recommended herbs). I seem to be getting some results from it in that my sleep is MUCH deeper according to my wearable and I do seem to be a bit stronger in the gym. Interested in your thoughts.

Otherwise, I am doing pretty well - I’d say 80%. Getting stronger, morning wood a lot more often, better quality erections, but still little libido. The last 20% is definitely going to be dependent on me fixing my gut (the cramp / bloat is also what disrupts my sleep at night depending on what I have eaten). I think I might need to do a water fast as I just can’t seem to figure out what is triggering my gut issues and no amount of probiotics, powders, diets, etc has really changed it. But all in all - feeling good and positive.

[Cdsnuts]

CD

What’s the current view on Testofen or fenugreek extract? I see from a few older posts on here that you used to use and get results from it. Then there are a bunch of other posts on here from people freaking out about its 5AR effects.

I ask because I am not ready / keen to do a PH cycle at this stage. Want to see if I can get through this without doing so (I know I am probably apprehensive for no good reason). So, the last month or so, I thought I would give the LEH herbs a break and have been trying a cycle of a Testofen based product (also contains ashwaghanda, tribulus, and other recommended herbs). I seem to be getting some results from it in that my sleep is MUCH deeper according to my wearable and I do seem to be a bit stronger in the gym. Interested in your thoughts.

Otherwise, I am doing pretty well - I’d say 80%. Getting stronger, morning wood a lot more often, better quality erections, but still little libido. The last 20% is definitely going to be dependent on me fixing my gut (the cramp / bloat is also what disrupts my sleep at night depending on what I have eaten). I think I might need to do a water fast as I just can’t seem to figure out what is triggering my gut issues and no amount of probiotics, powders, diets, etc has really changed it. But all in all - feeling good and positive.

Don't use it. Period.

I used it almost ten years ago or so before I was really on the good end of the journey, and it did seem to help, but it was short lived. I've talked to several guys that have had really bad issues with it altogether. That, plus the fact that it has other herbs combined into the mix isn't good because of the tolerance issue with those particular herbs.

Basically, you're breaking from the protocol, which, up to this point has you at about 80% recovered. You got there because of what you were doing. DON'T STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING. This is a mistake which will cost you time and health.

Keep your eye on the prize man.

[DefRecover]

Thanks for the prompt response and well noted. My “cycle” on this product was only ever intended to be 8 weeks, so I will be back on the herbs as usual.

Am I being too much of a sissy not trying the PHs?

[DefRecover]

CD - further to this, what do you think would be the safest way to come off my cycle of this Testofen based product? Assuming this is a 5-ARI, should I taper off? Reintroduce herb cycle while doing so?